AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: medium jim on 29 Mar 2012, 02:49 am
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Today I moved my MG2.5R's a mere 6 inches forward and played 3 CD that I'm very familiar with; Donald Fagan's Kamakiriad, Steely Dan's Countdown to Ecstasy & Katy Lied. My goodness, I was hearing much more micro detail and subtleties and there simply put was more dynamics and energy. The center stage was more expansive and overall was greater resolution.
It was like going getting upgraded to the orchestra pit from the 10th row!
My room is 16x15x8.5 and I use the 15' wide as the front wall. I now have the Maggie's 4' off the front wall and 3.5' in from the side walls...this means that the panels are 8' across and I have the ribbons on the inside.
My listening position is 8' away which leaves 4' behind me. I have furniture on both sides about 4' in front of the panels on the side walls to defuse the 1st wave and have acoustic foam panels on the front walls behind Maggie's. as room treatments.
There are windows on the back wall that I have heavily draped as well.
I have to think the 6" move forward really caused a lot to happen in a good way, but I've always known that you want to get Maggie's into the room as much as practical and have discovered that even a few inches can be a game changer!
Don't be afraid to move your Maggie's every now and then to see if you can find a better Feng Shui. Heck, I spent a month of trial and error to get them where I thought they were the best prior to the latest revelation.
Jim
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Are your front wall panels removable?
I was thinking that if you are trying out tweaking your placement you should try this:
This still might work with the treatments in place but would be slightly more likely to work without them:
Pull your speakers out from the front walls a few more feet to the 6.5' mark, orient them straight ahead (no toe in) tweeters in, and start moving them towards the side walls till the centerfill falls apart or the outside of the frame has reached within 5-6" of the side walls.
Move your listening seat to the back of the room, about 2' from the back wall.
Toe in a little if necessary. It should provide you with a rather stable "walk through" soundstage that is both disproportionately wide and deep relative to the speaker placement distance.
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I guess we've had similar experiences :lol:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91133.0
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Hi Satie:
Unfortunately, it is not a dedicated room for music or I would try your setup suggestions. If I ever have the luxury of a dedicated room, I will try a bunch of setups, such as the Rooze, 180 degree, etc.
Jim
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Move them to 4.14' from the side wall (measured to the center of the panel) and 5.25' from the front wall and report back. Ignore satie's post, I'm right.
Just kidding satie, at least about ignoring your post. My figures are from the Cardas dipole speaker placement calculator http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring (http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring) which I've been playing with lately to good effect. I'm still experimenting with placement schemes and would be interested if you could expand on your theory a bit. It looks very interesting, 40% out from the front wall and almost at the side wall, hmmm. I'd have to swap out from using the long wall behind the speakers to the short wall, but I've been looking for an excuse to try that.
M-Jim, as noted above I've been experimenting and have literally been moving my Maggies every day for the last two or three weeks, maybe more. You're right, a few inches makes a world of difference. I've also found you can throw out all the rules for toe in, up to and including having the speakers face each other and even facing the edges directly at you. Presently they are toed out about 30°. Have fun.
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There can only be generalizations as each room will have different acoustic properties. I have just enough toe-in as to create a nice center stage.
I read the linked thread and gained some more insights.
Jim
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Move them to 4.14' from the side wall (measured to the center of the panel) and 5.25' from the front wall and report back. Ignore satie's post, I'm right.
Just kidding satie, at least about ignoring your post. My figures are from the Cardas dipole speaker placement calculator http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring (http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring) which I've been playing with lately to good effect. I'm still experimenting with placement schemes and would be interested if you could expand on your theory a bit. It looks very interesting, 40% out from the front wall and almost at the side wall, hmmm. I'd have to swap out from using the long wall behind the speakers to the short wall, but I've been looking for an excuse to try that.
M-Jim, as noted above I've been experimenting and have literally been moving my Maggies every day for the last two or three weeks, maybe more. You're right, a few inches makes a world of difference. I've also found you can throw out all the rules for toe in, up to and including having the speakers face each other and even facing the edges directly at you. Presently they are toed out about 30°. Have fun.
The idea came from Limage on this HK site, a summary of his method is given here:
http://forum.1pekingroad.com/zaspx/topics.aspx?topicsno=3
How it looks is provided in the pics throughout the planar forum at 1pekingroad.com
http://www.1pekingroad.com/zaspx/replies.aspx?PageNo=1&topicsno=4&subjectno=1190&uppersubjectno=1190&sortby=updatedate&orderby=asc
Limage seems to convert anyone that comes into his room to this placement method and topography.
gallantdiva on audiogon is a recent convert and wrote up a really useful guide:
http://www.audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/008195.html
I don't use this set up at the moment, I have everything curved to aim at me in time aligned fashion - equidistant drivers and 1st order slopes. I tried it before with good results, but it was not practical for the room as it was still my office and the arrangement stuck the speakers right beside the desk, so I would turn from my PC and my face would be smack in the speaker. My setup does most of what the Limage setup does, but with slightly more precision in images - at the cost of some soundstage expanse and it being further back perhaps more so then I would like, and having less depth.
I should really set that up again and see what I've been missing the past few years. I can return it to the current setup if I resume using the space for an office.
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Welcome to the planar parade. It was said to me long ago by some learned Maggie owners that it takes a good year of moving them about by inches to finally settle on the right spot. And then adjusting room treatments and the tweeter resistor to balance out transparency vs tonality.
All in the name of audiophile enjoyment though, so not really a chore as much as "playing in the hobby".
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Welcome to the planar parade. It was said to me long ago by some learned Maggie owners that it takes a good year of moving them about by inches to finally settle on the right spot. And then adjusting room treatments and the tweeter resistor to balance out transparency vs tonality.
All in the name of audiophile enjoyment though, so not really a chore as much as "playing in the hobby".
This is my 2nd run with Maggie's and it was a lot easier to find the initial spot, this is probably the 4th spot in the last 4 months, by far the best. The irony is that the bass got better eventhough there was no altercations made to the subs. That was an unexpected surprise!
Jim
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One thing I've noticed both with Magnepans and MartinLogan speakers is getting the placement from speaker to speaker as accurate as possible. i.e. if you have one panel four feet, four and a half inches from the rear wall at the outside edge and four feet three inches at the inside edge, try and get the other speaker as close that dimension as possible.
This seems to help imaging as well as bass response, though it seems to affect the ML bass response more than the Maggies.
Give it a try and see what you think!
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note that soulsonic is also gallantdiva on audiogon. He is a recent convert and wrote up a really useful guide:
http://www.audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/008195.html
I don't use this set up at the moment, I have everything curved to aim at me in time aligned fashion - equidistant drivers and 1st order slopes. I tried it before with good results, but it was not practical for the room as it was still my office and the arrangement stuck the speakers right beside the desk, so I would turn from my PC and my face would be smack in the speaker. My setup does most of what the Limage setup does, but with slightly more precision in images - at the cost of some soundstage expanse and it being further back perhaps more so then I would like, and having less depth.
I should really set that up again and see what I've been missing the past few years. I can return it to the current setup if I resume using the space for an office.
@satie , as far as I know soulsonic is the actual manufacturer of Soulsonic speakers Mr. Krajnc Miro from Slovenia, gallantdiva is a owner of some Apogee Diva-s I think from Texas, so you must got it wrong.
But when we talk about the distance from the front wall at dipoles, we can say that unless we are 7 feet away we are still to close, whatever experience we gain from moving them out. Why is it so hard to pull them out and try it? Some 2 minutes of work? If you don't like(I doubt) you can still bring them closer.
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Berni:
Some rooms have physical limitations that preclude getting them in the room as far as possible.
TONEPUB:
I agree that symmetry is of the utmost importance with Planars. My thinking is that by moving my particular pair up just 6" that it was now in balance in that I'm now 4' in several key area's, 4' off the front wall, listening position 4' off the back wall, the first wave reflections are now at 4', and the listening distance is 8' with the planels 8' across.
Just maybe, all of the balancing points is a factor in any set-up of Planars. I know that if I move to a different room size that that will be a consideration.
One of the endearing facets of Planars is that even when set up poorly, they still will bring a smile, but when done right can be downright wonderful.
While we reference the speaker/Panel placement so much, it can often be easier to simply move the listening position as well. Heck, just moving the ears up or down a few inches can arise to dramatic aural changes. For me, ears right at the mid point or slightly above for the best tonality, resolution and instrument/vocal placement.
Jim
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Yes indeed, "gallantdiva" is actually a fellow Apogee owner/enthusiast who resides/works in Texas. Super nice guy who I've talked to many times.
Cheers,
Dave.
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@medium
Of course there are room limitations, but often we see large rooms and people sitting more then 12 feet away, speakers not wide apart and only 2-3 feet from the wall.
But even in smaller rooms the HK setup is a good try. It is better to be closer to speakers then speakers closer to wall, that's a fact.
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Berni:
Oh I agree and that is why I find it silly when some people buy smaller Planars instead of bigger ones because they have been told small room=small planar. Bigger Planars are just better no matter the room dimensions!
Jim
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Re Gallantdiva and Miro/soulsonic confusion.
I'll fix my post since I don't know either of them personally, I just found the writing style and content to be really too similar to be anything other than the same person. But then, I did not spend that much time reading things carefully. I was looking for placement discussions.
OK now I remember, soulsonic is Miro of soulsonic speakers. http://www.soulsonicspeakers.com/impulse.html
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My listening position is 8' away which leaves 4' behind me. I have furniture on both sides about 4' in front of the panels on the side walls to defuse the 1st wave and have acoustic foam panels on the front walls behind Maggie's. as room treatments.
Jim, you might consider replacing the front wall foam with QRD diffusers at the tweeters' first reflection points. Some people do prefer absorption there, but most seem to prefer diffusion, which makes the room acoustically larger.
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Jim, you might consider replacing the front wall foam with QRD diffusers at the tweeters' first reflection points. Some people do prefer absorption there, but most seem to prefer diffusion, which makes the room acoustically larger.
Josh:
Actually to be more precise, I have both diffusion in the way of a couple of wood media storage racks, as well as the, the acoustic foam. The racks are in the center and do catch a lot of the ribbons and the foam to a lesser extent, mostly the back waves from the panels.
It seems to be working fine.
Jim
Jim
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You could try arranging your media in a QRD pattern. That would give you real diffusion, rumors notwithstanding books and albums tend to be more absorptive than diffusive.
The objective here would be to give you a bigger soundstage and cleaner sound. Absorption will give you clean sound, but the soundstage will hav eless depth so it will tend to favor more intimate recordings. Some people who listen to chamber music prefer it for that reason. Since neither will work for everything, I think it's a personal choice, depending on the music you most listen to. Some recording studios actually have doors you can open to change from diffusion to absorption when a more intimate acoustic is desired.
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Josh:
For CD's and are both vertical and horizontal.
Jim
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As I understand it, a simple arrangement of CD's won't give you broadband diffusion. You need a more mathematical arrangement for that, or a simple curve.
I've never known whether vertical diffusion was a good idea with line sources or not. The floor and ceiling images of a line source basically approximate an infinite line source, rather than having the acoustic properties of room reflections. Of course, we do normally hear reflections from both, but the aural effects would very much depend on factors like predelay and interaural correlation. So I don't know if it would make things sound better or worse, and haven't heard from anybody who's compared them. A standard QRD diffuser does only lateral diffusion, while a skyline diffuser diffuses both laterally and vertically. It would be interesting to compare them, and perhaps absorption as well. QRD's can be made easily out of styrofoam, styrofoam skylines are a bit more work but are also cheap and pretty easy, so it would be easy to experiment. Maybe I'll do it myself at some point, when I get my IVa's set up (hopefully soon, I finally finished painting and just have to take up the dropcloths, then I can start putting stuff back together).
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Josh,
You got them repaired, I take it?
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Steve:
Josh is like a professional student, he will never get them finished :thumb:
Jim
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Josh,
You got them repaired, I take it?
Not yet. I've considered setting them up many times, but what with renovations going on both upstairs and down, painting and dust, workmen traipsing in and out, and everything shoved into odd rooms like the kitchen it's hard to find a safe space to power them up and desock them. Since I couldn't listen to them anyway it didn't much matter. This way, I'll be able to listen to and examine them and figure out what needs to be sent back to Magnepan, though it will probably be both sets of woofer panels -- the fellow I bought them from wasn't having any trouble with them, but at that age it's hard to believe that delamination hasn't occurred. (I'm planning to do the Neo 8 mod, so no sense in rebuilding the midrange panels, but if I did I'd do them with foil. But no foil on the bass, when I mentioned that possibility Wendell said "Why mess with the best woofers ever made?" and I had to admit he had a point.)
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Steve:
Josh is like a professional student, he will never get them finished :thumb:
Jim
I wish! These have been the renovations from hell -- supposed to take six weeks, took two years instead . . .
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Josh:
I commend you for your stick to itness with the IV's and know they will be amazing once back into your system.
Jim
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Josh:
I commend you for your stick to itness with the IV's and know they will be amazing once back into your system.
Jim
Thanks, Jim. Was just looking again at various midrange drivers and debating the merits of the RD-50's vs. the Neo 8's. But thinking about what you're going to do gets circular after a while. It's a lot more fun to actually do it. (Also, I keep realizing that nobody makes the driver that I actually want . . . )
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Thanks, Jim. Was just looking again at various midrange drivers and debating the merits of the RD-50's vs. the Neo 8's. But thinking about what you're going to do gets circular after a while. It's a lot more fun to actually do it. (Also, I keep realizing that nobody makes the driver that I actually want . . . )
Josh:
As you like to remind all of us, Hi-Fi is a game of compromises. Personally, I think you should restore your IV's back to their original glory and then do what Andy did and make a pair of Frankenpans that you can modify to your hearts content.
Back to my room set-up, so far so good with the 6" move forward. Funny thing is that I didn't have to mess with the toe-in whatsoever. Everything just seems sweeter and more defined, even those real early pressed CD's from 1979 thru the early 80's. Sure, I know that they didn't get properly mastered, even so, after a few minutes I relax into the music and all is good.
Jim
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I find that Maggies sound better and better the further they get away from the walls. Not necessarily in the bass, but everywhere else.
The IVa's really are Frankenpans already, since the midrange/tweeter panel can be separated from the woofer panels (basically a matter of an extra pair of feet so the separated panels don't fall over). Here's a picture of IVa's with the woofers behind the mid/tweeter panels:
http://www.integracoustics.com/images/magnepan/T4A.jpg
That's the way I'm going to use mine, since it's the only way I can fit them and a projection screen into my room!
It also makes them very easy to modify/combine with other speakers, I've seen the woofers combined with various stats, including Mmlrot1's Martin-Logans, and with 3.x's (Norman M.).
The IVa can also be easily modified with the Neo 8's, the midrange slot is the right size so all you have to do is take out the existing midrange drivers and stick the Neo's in their place. They're a bit easier to modify that way than the IV's since the slot in the IV's will only accommodate 6 Neos, but you need 8 Neo-8's for the best frequency response.
Now, if someone will only come out with a line source plasma tweeter that I can put in the ribbon slot . . .
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The IVa's really are Frankenpans already, since the midrange/tweeter panel can be separated from the woofer panels (basically a matter of an extra pair of feet so the separated panels don't fall over).
What are Frankenpans? Sounds like Frankenstein's monster.
Does that also mean the Mini Maggies are Frankenpans already, since the midrange/tweeter panel is separated from the woofer panel?
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Mini Maggie's are not "Frankenpan's", Frankenpan's are made from either several different Magnepan's as in the case of Andy's, or where the panels have been redone with non-original parts/speakers.
Jim
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Here are some pics of Andy's:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=mug&m=156422&VT=T
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Mini Maggie's are not "Frankenpan's", Frankenpan's are made from either several different Magnepan's as in the case of Andy's, or where the panels have been redone with non-original parts/speakers.
Jim
Andy's Frankenpans look interesting. Andy posted the following on the Planar Asylum:
"However, a few inmates have used 2 Tymp bass panels each side to augment their 3.X series speakers - hemholtz is one. IE. you have:
BBBMR ... RMBBB
- now this must be a spectacular sound!! :_)) "
Does the above configuration of 2 Tympani bass panels with 3.x series speakers fit the definition of Frankenpans? If so, does a configuration of 2 DWM woofers with 3.x speakers fit the definition of Frankenpans? If not, suppose you modify the DWM crossover with 3.x series speakers does that fit the definition of Frankenpans?
Sorry to be late to the party but I am interested to learn.
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RH:
Let me see, you know hemholtz, me think you know more than you are letting on....
Jim
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Andy's Frankenpans look interesting. Andy posted the following on the Planar Asylum:
"However, a few inmates have used 2 Tymp bass panels each side to augment their 3.X series speakers - hemholtz is one. IE. you have:
BBBMR ... RMBBB
- now this must be a spectacular sound!! :_)) "
Does the above configuration of 2 Tympani bass panels with 3.x series speakers fit the definition of Frankenpans? If so, does a configuration of 2 DWM woofers with 3.x speakers fit the definition of Frankenpans? If not, suppose you modify the DWM crossover with 3.x series speakers does that fit the definition of Frankenpans?
Sorry to be late to the party but I am interested to learn.
I don't think there's an official definition!
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Josh:
I think Robin Hood is pulling our legs.
Jim
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Isn't hemholtz that thing you do to get people to hock up their dinner?
It seems a bit off topic but maybe it will help save someone's life so why not.
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Steve:
You're thinking of the hymlick manouver. Hemholtz is the moniker of a guy on the asylum.
Jim
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Isn't hemholtz that thing you do to get people to hock up their dinner?
It seems a bit off topic but maybe it will help save someone's life so why not.
Actually, I've always wondered if that moniker was intended to be 'helmholtz' instead - as in Helmholtz resonator. By the way, I like your present tagline. I'm sure you've heard Frank's poodle lecture (YCDTOSA6, disk1, track2) - funny stuff.
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I find that Maggies sound better and better the further they get away from the walls. Not necessarily in the bass, but everywhere else.
The IVa's really are Frankenpans already, since the midrange/tweeter panel can be separated from the woofer panels (basically a matter of an extra pair of feet so the separated panels don't fall over). Here's a picture of IVa's with the woofers behind the mid/tweeter panels:
http://www.integracoustics.com/images/magnepan/T4A.jpg
That's the way I'm going to use mine, since it's the only way I can fit them and a projection screen into my room!
It also makes them very easy to modify/combine with other speakers, I've seen the woofers combined with various stats, including Mmlrot1's Martin-Logans, and with 3.x's (Norman M.).
The IVa can also be easily modified with the Neo 8's, the midrange slot is the right size so all you have to do is take out the existing midrange drivers and stick the Neo's in their place. They're a bit easier to modify that way than the IV's since the slot in the IV's will only accommodate 6 Neos, but you need 8 Neo-8's for the best frequency response.
Now, if someone will only come out with a line source plasma tweeter that I can put in the ribbon slot . . .
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=60777)
Line source plasma which goes down to 300 hz!
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Line source plasma which goes down to 300 hz!
Wow, where did that come from?
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Cool, indeed, but doesn't plasma react with oxygen to produce harmful (and corrosive) allotropes?
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Cool, indeed, but doesn't plasma react with oxygen to produce harmful (and corrosive) allotropes?
Hence the tank of helium in the Hill Plasmatronics. OTOH, I have a gas line in my fireplace -- I was thinking I could make flame speakers.
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If that Poodle Lecture was the same thing as was shown in Baby Snakes I was there.
You know the fellow who tries to hand Frank the "Tower of Power" in the beginning of the film? He looks an awful lot like the guy in my mirror. :D
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Steve:
Get a different mirror!
Jim
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RH:
Let me see, you know hemholtz, me think you know more than you are letting on....
Jim
I don't know Hemholtz but I like his choice in speakers.
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I don't know Hemholtz but I like his choice in speakers.
In Magnepan we trust!
Jim
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If that Poodle Lecture was the same thing as was shown in Baby Snakes I was there.
You know the fellow who tries to hand Frank the "Tower of Power" in the beginning of the film? He looks an awful lot like the guy in my mirror. :D
Okay folks, is this our facilitator trying to hand Frank a dope fiend device?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=60804)
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Why does that picture conger up Bang a Gong, Don't Bogart that Joint my Friend, Roll another one just like the other one, or maybe Harry S Anslinger, "Reefer Madness"...
I don't think there was a concert back in the 70's where you didn't get at minimum a contact high from 2nd hand smoke...
Jim
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The old US Bong, gone but not forgotten.
What's the other guy got, a giant pair of underpants?
Those concerts were always a lot of fun.
The funny part (for me) is that I didn't see the movie until three years ago so I had forgotten all about it. I nearly fell over when I saw it!
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Jim,
You're welcome. :icon_twisted: Back in the 70s, I contributed to the 'atmosphere' at concerts. I must confess to being a typical musician, unlike Frank. :guitar:
Steve,
Yes, I have fond memories of those things too. Ah, those were the days...in a way. Frank's drugs of choice were caffeine and nicotine...and music. He said pot made his throat hurt and made him sleepy. He was rather outspoken against the use of drugs, but that message went in one ear and straight out the other. :eyebrows:
I can imagine how you might have reacted when you saw that. I would ask how you forgot about it, but... :lol:
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Kevin:
Moreover, Frank demanded that the musicians in his band didn't do drugs and it has been told that if he found out you did, you were no longer in the Mothers of Invention.
Jim