AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: Occam on 18 Apr 2005, 12:16 am
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MAJOR REVISION as of 2/7/06
This thread is for discussion of the Felicia balancing powerconditioner, which is an enhancement of Jon Risch's SQ&D iso trans project -
http://db.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=tweaks&m=43988
I've left the schematics on a 'sticky' thread to allow reference to it while convesing in a separate window on this thread -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441&sid=8fde56b5616010155d6f2364fe935806
When participating in the constructor's thread, please open a separate window to that thread as this will be edited and updated to reflect current status
Please note that this project involves mains voltages and can kill you. Unless you follow accepted safety precautions (and implictly understand them) do not! undertake this project. You must have a meter capable of reading at least 300VAC to implement this project.
My personal implementation is in reality an ugly 'boa constrictor' powercord, Input is a cord with a wall plug, and output is a cord(s) terminated with an IEC plug(s) that goes directly to you component(s).
The fuses shown are NOT optional! I use 1amp fast blow fuses. The maximum rated fuse you may use is the same as in the component you are powering!
The following components are reccomended (this will change as surplus stocks are exhausted and/or better components are found)
Input/Output - Volex 17605 powercord, cut in half, providing input and ouput cables and plugs
http://www.carlton-bates.com/cb/invsrch/flocresult.asp?svend=BC&Start=0&Offset=10&srchfield=stkmfgpart&pmvndstkn=BC%2D17605%2FB1%2D50%2F10&pumdbn=41056
Note - the Signal transformers from BG Micro are no longer in stock. Many manufacturers make these 'World Power' chassis mount transformers, Signal, Triad, Stancor, Hammond, MCI.... but $40 retail is not as attractive as $10 surplus. Anyone finding good, inexpensive alternatives, please PM me.
Transformers - Signal Transformer 175va dual bobbin transformer
http://www.bgmicro.com/prodinfo.asp?sid=078189814814814869201136182&prodid=PWR1164&page=1&cri=signal+transformer&stype=3&time_out=44:58
Please note that when primaries are wired in series , 240v, and used to either input or output 120v their rating must be cut in half., ie, the 175va transformer is downrated to 87va. This project and the components suggested is for source components. Here are wiring diagrams specifically for those Signal A41s. They come with the primaries wired in parallel (which you don't want for the reccomended 2 transformer version,and you must rewire for series connection), and the secondaries also wired in series which you do want -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4715)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4716)
EDIT as of 10/7/05The current reccomendation ([used with the specific Signal Transformer A41], is now -
C1 = 18uF 400VDC Jantzen CrossCap (Parts Express: 027-938)
C2, C5 = 0.47uF 400VDC Jantzen CrossCap (Parts Express: 027-906)
C3, C6 = 0.1uF 400VDC Jantzen CrossCap (Parts Express: 027-900)
At least for non-silly money. All caps should be aligned the same, in other words the direction of the writing should be consistent.
As the secondaries are running at 15 odd vAC, any voltage rating, 250vDC being the lowest common rating, should work fine for C1, C2 & C3, but please feel free to experiment, the seconday is at 15 volts so you don't need a X2 cap, and if you're feeling wealthy use Auricaps by all means. Feel free to bypass with the most esoteric of adequately rated bespoke caps. Actually, it is (IMO, as well as Tianguis, Phil, and others) a very worthwhile upgrade to bypass each of the capacitor groupings with a .01uf 600v Auricap.
As with any 'tweak', its efficacy depends on many factors -
Your systems characteristics, resolution, etc......
Your predeliction for mass hysteria.
Your specific metrics (i.e. What pulls YOUR monkey bone)
YMMV
a whole passle of .25 female quick connects and a tool for crimping them. The transformers have qc terminations and it makes construction quite easy. If you've a mind to reap whatever benefits of hardwiring with solder, be my guest.
wire - quite useful. Pick whatever with adequate voltage rating. I'm not going there.
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Let me just say that Paul and I have had a great time over the course of 3 seperate Saturday's building different variations of the Jon Risch recipe. This isn't the same JR design that is sold by DIYcable and written up on his page but rather a balanced/filtered/isolated design he mentioned on AA some while ago.
I am quite stunned with the results we were able to acheive! The differences were profound in my system. We first started out with my system prior to putting in a dedicated line, as was the case heard at the Rave meeting at my abode. Then on the second saturday, I had installed the dedicated line. The differences weren't as large as before, because the d-line did help a lot but they were definitely still there. Then we did a few variations and gained even more. We will go through the various ideas we tried in due time but needless to say I am quite satified what we were able to acheive with so little money and a great design!
I heard rumor that the Felicia bested a big name hi-end PC at the Gotham meeting, which I was suppose to attend but spur-of-the-moment legal matters kept me away. It definitely did best the OneACs that I modded for myself and Daniel. At first listen we weren't sure but later configs made it quite clear.
more to come....
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Josh - Firstly, and apology for not adequately acknowledging you contribution to this project. It simply would not have happened if it were not for you and your many, many hours of effort.
Given the many hours you've put into this and the shared subjective evaluations, I can state that we've calibratied our subjective vocabulary against each others. In the future when Josh posts his impressions of a component, I'm relatively sure I'll have a good idea what it sounds like.
The Gotham Audio Society meeting today was quite an eye opener, as I'd previously not been able to compare our efforts against commercial products. The majority of members who opined told me that they preferred Felicia to the AlphaCore balanced conditioners. Then again, those who preferred the AlphaCore probably didn't confide to me.....
Suffice it to say that the Felecia held its own and is competitive with commercial products, within its power constraints (in its present guise it can't power amps)
One thing I have learned is the power of the dpdt switch. Nothing better than a proper switch to insert/add components while listening. Gordy just sent me some 4pdt switches! :)
Hopefully, this thread will serve as a repository and exchange of info so that Felicia will evolve and become even better!
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An inspired contribution to the 'dirty mains' problem!!
Congratulations, Paul and Josh....... :notworthy:
Cheers,
Hugh
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Cool DIY project, congratulations to Occam and JoshK.
Occam, when you stated that GFCI outlets need to be installed, could I use a GFCI breaker mounted in the box ahead of the outlets and have the same protection?
Thanks for the hard work. :mrgreen:
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Henry,
That's the way I would do it (a GFCI breaker). Can you build any of those three versions? What about the ground? Do you still connect it to the component, or is that why you're using GFCI outlets?
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Paul is giving me way too much credit here, although I understand the idea of what we were doing and did help some in construction of the various implementations it was Paul's knowledge that allowed us to acheive such great results! It was also his scientific tendencies that pushed us to take it up a few notches to its current variation.
I will state a couple of obvious things. This will not do anything for your amps. IMO they should be dealt with in a much different fashion anyhow, so I really don't care, but this should work for nearly all sources and most preamps (each individually). The really cool thing about this is unlike most solutions on the market, it isolates the components from one another as well as the line while providing balanced filtered power.
At the cost it takes to build one of these, it is easy to afford building one for each component! So the current limitations aren't as restrictive as you might first think.
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I see -- so you're ignoring the ground, which is why you use GFCI outlets. What do you physically do with the ground? I currently have a cable (12/2 + ground) run from my breaker box to power my amps. The ground in the cable is connected to the ground on the outlets. I could run 12/2 without ground, but I'm not sure they even make this cable, or do they? If you have a ground running to where you want to install the transformers, what do you do with the ground? You can't connect it to the box, as that wouldn't meet code.
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Bob,
I hestitate to answer because my I am no expert in grounding, it is what pains me in DIY most. However, what we did was connect the ground from the input side of the 'Felicia' to the output side of the 'Felicia' so it just passes through. (Paul correct me if I am wrong here). For the balanced config (we tried so many I almost forget what was final) I think the center tap is also tied to this point.
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Roughly how much would it cost to build one of these? For those who aren't comfortable building one of these, would you consider building some and discretly selling them?
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Ohenry - The reason for suggesting a GFI has to do with the nature of most of our components. Typically, the neutral line is neither fused no switched within a component. (on all my own DIY projects I'm now using an IEC inlet with dual pole switch and fuses, $1.49 from apexjr.com.) Unbalanced mains do not have power flowing on the neutral, and assuming proper wiring of the mains outlet, this is not problematic. But after balancing we now have 60VAC on that neutral line and 60VAC (antiphase) on the hot line. In the event of a component failure, we might find 60VAC shorted to the chassis, with no fuse on that neutral line to provide safety. Its pretty hard to kill oneself with 60VAC, 120VAC is often fatal, and 240VAC is VERY often fatal. This is why a GFCI is reccomended.
I defer to ctviggen on the breaker located GFCIs as I'm not experienced with them, but if they do trip with anything above of a set level of ground leakage, they address those safety issuse. I'm checking into having one installed in my own breaker box.
JoshK and I originally built the first 2 transformer version, with a single output as we did our development balancing only his CD/SACD player feeding directly to his Perreaux integrated. Based upon our own evaluations, we were astounded by the improvements it offered. We scheduled a 'shootout' at the Gotham Audio Society against a Alphacore balancing conditioner as we'd previously not had a chance for comparison with commercial products. The day before, in setup, I found that the Creek passive pre was not an ideal mate to my AKSA 100 N+, and threw my warhorse Nakamichi CA5 II into the mix. I built the first and only dual output isolated version that night, and that is what I demoed the next day, untested, as my amp was at the Gotham meeting site. Not too bright......
Nevertheless, the unoptimized dual output version was certainly at least the equal of the AlphaCore. In retrospect, it might have been brighter to demostrate with the more proven single output Felecia, feeding both source components.
Given the above, I would suggest building version #1 first as this is a verified and partially optimized version. Extending to the latter 2 versions only requires the addition of 1 additional transformer and some thingamabobs. This constructor feedback driven project will hopefully be a learning experience for all involved. Rather than have some clowns (Josh and I) say "here is the definitive....." I'd much rather see this as a syndicalist project, folks interacting for their own mutaul benefit.
Felecia will hopefully be a community project and I'm expecting that feedback from constructors will allow us to further optimize the design
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I see -- so you're ignoring the ground, which is why you use GFCI outlets. What do you physically do with the ground? I currently have a cable (12/2 + ground) run from my breaker box to power my amps. The ground in the cable is connected to the ground on the outlets. I could run 12/2 without ground, but I'm not sure they even make this cable, or do they? If you have a ground running to where you want to install the transformers, what do you do with the ground? You can't connect it to the box, as that wouldn't meet code.
Bob - The ground is not ignored or broken! The grounds as shown on the schematics are tied together. If you're housing it in a metal chassis, the grounds should be connected to the chassis ground as a 'star-ground'. The mains ground is tied directly to the centertapped ouput transformer windings. I do not like or condone the idea of floating balanced for both safety and performance issues. Even with 2 pronged components, a ground is ultimately established via the interconnects to other grounded components, unless you're off the grid on batteries.
Josh - Aw shucks. Regardless of your self effacing manner, this project would be nowhere without you. This is a community project, and I fully expect feedback from constuctors to make it even better.
klh - If you click on the links for the components on the first post, all will be revealed. For a single output device it runs $18 for the 2 transformers, $4 for the oil motor run cap, $7 for the Volex, $.75 for the X2 cap and $.50 for the loading resistor. But the shipping and cost of whatever box you put it in is what gets ya.
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Ohenry - The reason for suggesting a GFI has to do with the nature of most of our components. Typically, the neutral line is neither fused no switched within a component. (on all my own DIY projects I'm now using an IEC inlet with dual pole switch and fuses, $1.49 from apexjr.com.) Unbalanced mains do not have power flowing on the neutral, and assuming proper wiring of the mains outlet, this is not problematic. But after balancing we now have 60VAC on that neutral line and 60VAC (antiphase) on the hot line. ...
So, when using the first version fitted with an IEC plug to the component side, it would be necessary to have the neutral line fused in the component or to have the GFCI upstream?
Also, are there going to be "issues" when the neutrals aren't switched in the components? (it would seem that the CDP, preamp, etc. would remain active and the unit would have to be controlled via a switch on the transformer power input).
I hate to appear totally thick, but I often overlook the obvious. :oops:
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Cool. Do you have any pictures of the completed device?
Thanks.
Todd
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I hate to appear totally thick, but I often overlook the obvious.
Not at all.... The concerns raised by you are spot on, especially as they deal with safety issues. I can only express my gratitude to you and ctviggen for raising these serious concerns that I'd not given adequate thought to.
I'll revise the schematics on the 'sticky' page to reflect the following-
1. The input 'hot' line should be fused to reflect the maximun draw allowed for the input transformer. In the case of the 175va Signal transformer initially reccomended, for the single output, it should be a 1amp fuse, reflecting the downrating required by the series connection of the primaries down to 88VA. In versions 2 & 3 where the input primaries are configured in parallel, a 2amp fuse should be used reflecting that 175VA rating. As the transformer is an EI core feeding a 'small' capacitance of 15uf, that rating should not cause turn-on surge tripping.
Also, if the unit is plugged into a large draw component, like an amplifier, you want the fuse to trip rather than have the transformer go into meltdown.
2. All output lines should be fused on both legs, as they are both now 'hot'. If the intended component is has both lines fused and switched internally, you may forgoe this, but frankly, you never know what you'll plug into what, so I'd include it regardless. Sort of a belt and suspenders approach. The fuses used should be exactly those in the component you intend to power.
3. When working on components with the cover off, NEVER have it plugged into a balancing transformer. Do your mods or troubleshooting with the component pluged into a conventional single phase line for safety reasons, if the unit has to be powered.
And yes, if you've a GFCI [EDIT ------deleted---].......nor am I conversant enough with GFCI issues to opine.
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An additional caveat - Never use any balancing transformer with older component that may have neutral tied to the chassis. Although this has been a UL no-no for over 20years, some golden oldies such as some Mac tube amps (I think?) do internally connect neutral to the chassis assuming that the neutral line is grounded. You can check this with a ohmmeter by making sure you've an open circuit between both (either) blades on the powercord plug and the chassis with the unit turned on but not plugged in.
This caveat applies to both Felicia and commercial units.
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Very cool project Josh & Paul! If I didn't already have an Equitech, I'd dive right into this one. I may still add some filtering as my 2Q is a five year old industrial model.
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Just kidding. :)
Occam, thanks for the explanation and continuing to encourage through a helpful attitude. Now, it's time to do some shopping...
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Ulas,
Dunno what happened to your posts, but I'd like to thank you for that excellent point you made about 'downstream' GFCIs not being applicable to balancing transformers. As you said, whatever leakage is NOT going to be seen by a downstream GFCI (either whole house or an GFCI outlet feeding the unit). It will not be effective specifically because the transformer galvanically isolates its balanced output lines from the non balanced feeding lines. I hadn't realized that this isolation which aids in noise filtering, the cap between secondaries, also precludes the use of downstream GFCIs. Similarly, its important that you noted that even if the GFCI is properly positioned at the output of the balancing conditioner, it must be specified to trip appropriately for either the 'hot' or 'neutral' legs as they are both now live.
While we might disagree on the purpose and efficacy of fusing, your constructive commets are much appreciated.
Regards,
Paul
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Some pictures of my Felicia Balancing Power Conditioner
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4712)
Note the fine fitting of the strain reliefs for the 2 cords terminated in IECs. On the other side is a single guillotined Volex terminated in a wall plug. Nothing like a 25/64's drill bit.... perfect for jamming a Volex cord through relatively easily, while leaving a very snug fit.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4713)
Note the Nautical theme. I find this conditioner works best while playing sea shantys.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4718)
The innards. Note the use of nothing but the highest quality audiophile quick connects and wire nuts.
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An inspired contribution to the 'dirty mains' problem!!
Congratulations, Paul and Josh....... :noteworthy:
Cheers,
Hugh
Hi, Hugh,
Would a 240v "Felicia" be a good idea, then, for a GK-1 in Oz? :?
Regards,
Andy
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Ohenry - The reason for suggesting a GFI (GFCI?) has to do with the nature of most of our components. Typically, ...
Hi Paul,
Can you tell me wot a GFI/GFCI is?
Thanks,
Andy
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Andy -
This reference appears to explain the functioning of GFCIs quite well -
http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm
You might have noticed that I've removed suggestions as to how to use GFCIs for this application, and and instead insisted on fusing all hot lines. This is not because I think them a bad idea, but because I lack the hands on experience to confidantly advise.....
I hope someone from downunder can comment on their actual experience with balanced power on their audio. I have compared the same component conditioners here, where the only difference what changing from isolation to balanced and found it a substantial improvement. But with the electrons spinning the wrong way where you are and all, dunno....
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Some pictures of a dual isolated ouput Felicia Balancing Power Conditioner
I'm rather interested in building a quad isolated version... would anyone be willing to explain or draw that circuit? I can't quite make it out from the pictures.
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Gonzo,
Further experimentation has prompted me to give up on the dual output version of the Felicia shown in the above pictures. The savingings of 1 transformer over the 4 required in 2 separate, single output Felicias, $9, simply is not worth the compromise in performance.
So for a 4 output (90watt max power draw each, with the suggested transformers from BGMicro), you'd simply purchase 8 transformers, and build 4 separate balancing conditioners, They could share a common housing and input powercord (and common star-ground), but for optimal performance, you really want 2 transformers per source component supplied, as shown in the 'sticky' thread.
I've had some discussions with the nice folks at BG, and they're now shipping up to 4 of the transformers, plus smaller doodads in a single $8 priority airmail package. It saves substantially over UPS, arrives within 2-3 days, and the look of joy on your mail carrier's face when they deliver a 7x11x6" package weighing over 25lbs is an added bonus. :o
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Further experimentation has prompted me...
Thanks, I'll give that a shot!
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Gonzo - actually, thank you..... I've been talking to the folks at BgMicro, and they have reported a radical increase in sales of those transformers since this threads opening, all of about 40. I'd fantisized the efforts of Josh and myself would result in hundreds being sold.... :lol:
Gonzo, and all the rest of you risk takers, would you please, please post your evaluation of the this project? The good, the bad, and the ugly.
We need some feedback.
TIA,
Paul
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Just finished a "Felicia" with single output to an active crossover. Sure made a big difference in clarity in high treble. Was listening to Rutter's Requiem and other sacred music, first time I could turn up the volume to get a realistic sound of choir and organ. Didn't realize how difficult track 9 Anthem for double choir was... acapalla...they must have perfect pitch. Anyway, it was good. Now to build a ganged "Felicia" with four trans, my CD and pre amp have 2 amp fuses. Can I parallel the output just like the ganged out diagram?
Thanks,
Philip
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Phillip,
You might have noticed I pulled the dual output and ganged versions of the Felicia from the sticky thread. The single output dual transformer version appears to work substantially better.
You didn't mention which source components you plan on powering, but given my experience, I strongly reccomend an individual Felicia for each source component, and while I realize its a pain in the arse, it does eliminate interference and interactions betwixt and between. I don't forsee any problems powering your GK-1 with a Felicia with the currently reccomended transformers (I'm awaiting my own GK-1). While Hugh might specify 2amp fuses, I don't see how it could tax the (even downrated) capabilities of those transformers. That limitation of 90watts is for continuous RMS draw, not peak, and the real limitation is that the draw not raise their temperature to 'to hot to touch', about 130F.
The design itself is not current constrained; the constraint is finding NOS transformers with appropriate technical specs (either multi bobbin or interwinding shielded) that are inexpensive enough to satisfy my cheap SOB sensibilities.
Could you post what components your planning on powering?
Thanks for being the first to announce that you've actually built the dang thing and for posting your impressions.
Regards,
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Yes I am planning to power the GK-1 and a CD-Pro2. Thanks for the info about power draw, so I can build singles for both.
Have to play around with grounding, have a slight increase in hum in speakers. Thanks for sharing this project with everyone, excellent results!
Philip
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I got to try Paul and Josh's Felicia conditioner today in my three systems. With each use, you could hear a difference...and for the better !!! Thank you Paul !!! The Felicia will be at my Rave next Saturday....then a few other's can get a listen...and hear it for themselves. I think you'll like what you hear..... 8)
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Chris is right. The improvement is startling. I had NO idea! Big congrats to Paul and Josh. That thing is a home run, the kind where you just drop the bat and stand there while it sails into the second deck. Incredible.
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Thanks for the feedback. That is the thing with projects like these, you never know if it is just another audiophile tweak or whether it is more profound until you build it and listen for yourself. Paul really had some brilliant ideas that took this little project from good to quite astounishing IMHO. I don't want to build it up too much though and pre-bias people's opinions until they get to hear it for themselves at the Rave.
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I wonder if the Signal Transformer A41-43-24 units at http://www.alltronics.com/transformers.htm ($4.95) would be good for DIY balanced power . . .
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I'm going to have to look into building a few of these (for my preamp and transport). They don't look too hard to build, so the only thing holding me up is lack of time.
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Christopher,
Welcome to AudioCircles!
Both transformers, the one you referenced from alltronics, and the one reccommended on the first page of this thread from BGmicro are Signal A41 dual bobbin series, at $5 and $8 respectively. The differences are the Alltronics one is a 43va, 24volt secondary and the BG is a 175va with a 28v secondary. With the series connection required for balanced use, both must be downrated by 50%, giving a max rms use of 21.5va and 87.5va respectively, as well better regulation with the larger and less losses with the higher secondary voltage. Given that the difference in cost between the 2 required for balanced use totals $6, I see no technical reasons for choosing the less expensive of the 2.
That being said. I've not evaluated the Alltronics transformer and it might well provide subjective advantages, dunno. (Josh and I have evaluated about 7 different transformers, and feel the BGMicro transformers provide the best combination of value and availablility).
As said previously, the presently recommended components are not definitive, but simply represent, in Josh and my opinions, excellent perfomance at the cost of a single bespoke RCA plug. I encourage folks to experiment with different transformers and capacitors, but would also recommend building one using these currently 'standardized components', at least to have something to compare to.
Among the transformers we've evaluated are -
100va r-cores, I bought the last 2, great isolation performance, but no center taps for balancing.
72va 'flatpacks' multiple bobbins, we bought the last 5, low external field due to additional external copper shielding, and great perfomance. I'd sell my eldest to find more. I just got a quote of $60 each to have them built.
But even though these transformers had demonstrable advantages over the currently recommended trannys, Josh and I found their performance converged once one found the optimal capacitance for filtering....
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I've been pondering how to house multiple 'Felicia's. I don't have access to a metal shop, but I do have a drill. So I searched the web for 'wooden box'. My constraints are -
1. I'm a cheap SOB.
2. I wanted a wooden box with walls thick enough that I could use a simple hole to grip my favorite Volex cords without needing addition cord retaining hardware.
3. I decided I might splurge and actually fit IECs and outlets, so I wanted to be able to do this with the indulgent expenditure of a roto-zip tool.
4. I wanted to be able to house at leat 3 separate Felicias, meaning 6 transformers, 3 caps, 7 fuses and possibly even larger transformers.
So here is what I found at Ikea among Shoddy, Krappy, etc... I also found Kartotek -
http://www.ikea.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=12&productId=33874&langId=-1&parentCats=10115*10298
So I bought 3 of the small versions, @$15ea. Here are some pics with transformers inside -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4719)
and here is a picture with the lid on. I plan on using the lid upside down as the bevel seems to go better that way. One of the alignments strips is already removed. I plan on drilling ventilation holes as well as holes to afix the lid with screws.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4720)
Sound like a plan?
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But even though these transformers had demonstrable advantages over the currently recommended trannys, Josh and I found their performance converged once one found the optimal capacitance for filtering....
Isn't more capacitance always better (up until you start rolling off the 60Hz signal)? What is your criteria for optimal?
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a picture of some of the various caps and transformers Josh and I have evaluated -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4721)
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Isn't more capacitance always better (up until you start rolling off the 60Hz signal)? What is your criteria for optimal?
For a single capacitor, along with higher capacitance, all things being equal, comes higher inductance which limits the efficacy of filtering action. This can be addressed with multiple caps/bypassing.
We've attempted to keep this project simple. I'll repeat myself, this project, which presently has 3 components in the filtering/balancing circuit, the 2 transformers and a single capacitor is not definitive. Presently, one other builder (to my knowledge) is experimenting with bypassing with excellent results. This will involve simply paralleling additional caps with the existing one. Frankly, if anonther, better main cap is found, I'll lose no sleep if you have to discard that $4 capacitor.
Optimal means in this context, better that the last iteration. Build it if you want, and embark on this gradient search. There is no need to justify its topology or choice of components as Felicia 'speaks' for herself.
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My apologies if I came across questioning the efficacy of the design. The balance between price and series inductance is good. I was curious because I thought there might be some need to match a particular capacitor with any particular transformer.
I have found the Relcap PPFX (http://www.hndme.com/storerelcappfx600v.html) to work very well for bypass in a similar application.
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jdybnis - The only apology should come from me for being snarky. Your questions are perfectly reasonable and straightforward. At minimum, Felicia can be viewed as a 3rd order lowpass filter consisting of the cap and flanking inductances, and while my meter can measure capacitance, I lack instrumentation capable of measuring inductance, or a signal generator, so the development has been substantially subjective.
A quick confession about the schematic. The X2 capacitance shown across the primaries of the input transformer has lilltle to do with the efficacy of the filtering behavior of the unit which is feeding a source. It is simply there conveniently to provide a modicum of filtering (as that capacitance is in parallel with the mains circuit) for other components which don't have powerconditioning.
Welcome to AudioCirlcles. I'm looking forward to your (and others) feedback and comments that will make Felicia a better project.
Felicitations,
Paul
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Projects like this always make me wish (1) that I'd taken a filters class in college and (2) that I had more time. I think it'd be fun to program the data into an analysis tool (like Matlab or Spice; probably Spice would be better) and then determine the best combination of capacitors and transformer to use. Unfortunately, I'll be lucky to have enough time to just build the exact version of this.
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The thing that I really enjoyed about this project was that we were using a great design to get good results rather than just throwing money at a big ass transformer & fancy chassis. We (mostly Paul) scoured the surplus market looking for suitable caps and transformers that were easy to obtain and inexpensive but had the right properties (shielding, split bobbins, low bandwidth, etc) to make the most of it.
Armed with some dime store parts we got busy mocking up different designs using a DPDT center off switch to so that we could do pairwise comparisons. We listened to many different combos playing the same couple of cuts over and over again. Remember the cable shootout at Daniels? :lol: This is why the project took my wife's name since she put up with all of our never ending obscessing.
The goal here was to, in the end, have an inexpensive by highly effective PC that we could share with this community. To this end we suceeded I feel. We already know that many who have heard it like the results. Just how well it stacks up to the "big boys" has yet to be determined, and is somewhat moot. Of course I'd love it to beat their pants off but even if it didn't, all is not lost because we haven't taken this to the hilt. It is still what has been done for cheap.
Paul and I have shared this project with all of you in the hopes of starting an 'open source' project if you will. Since it is simple enough to build and cheap enough to give it a shot, we hope that others will join in building and experimenting with us by trying other various configurations (different caps, bypassing, magic fairy dust, etc) and reporting their findings back to this forum for the benefit of all.
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8 transformers and various bits now on the way to my doorstep. I'll try to take lots of pictures.
4 outputs in one 17x13x5 case... hopefully things will fit the way I have it planned in my head :roll:
On a related note, anyone see any problem powering a LED w/ AC using the circuit shown here:
http://www.qsl.net/yo5ofh/hobby%20circuits/led_circuits.htm
(scroll down to "AC Line powered LEDs")
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All:
I've got parts on order for two. In the meantime, I've been toting Occam's pirate chest around and will have it at the NY Audio Rave tomorrow.
I've been messing with bypassing the cap and it's a very worthwhile "tweak". I've tried a bunch of film/foil caps, with quick disconnects to clip on the main cap. The combo which works the best so far (the Felicia is only powering my Transcendent Sound Grounded Grid pre) is a Bennic .1 uf with an AudioCap Theta .01 uf. The improvement in micro detail is large. Dynamics and bass response have improved, also, which I didn't expect.
I've also outfitted a pair of Bybees with quick disconnects, and have swapped them in and out. They nicely add some smoothness on top.
Larry
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Larry, are you bypassing with the bybees or do you have them in series? Large or small slipstream ones?
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Josh:
The Bybees are in series with the output legs. The ones I'm using are the second-generation small red ones, rated at 4 amps.
Interestingly, I think the bypass caps are a greater improvement then the Bybees. Of course, the whole effect is cumulative.
Larry
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Felicia is such a good idea that I now want to build Feliciazilla. I have several interesting transformers to work with:
1) 5kVa isolation transformer from an APC Matrix 5000 UPS. I have the entire UPS but don't use it and am thinking about salvaging the transformer from it. I think this EI transformer must weigh at least 100 pounds. I still have not determined if it is capable of balanced output, but either way, I think it has the potential to be useful in this project. On the input side it has taps for 240/230/225/220/208V (and maybe some other voltages, but nothing in the 105-125V range). On the output side, it has taps for some of the input voltages as well as for 120V. I have never tried it, but the "isolation unit" housing the transformer is supposed to be capable of use independent of the rest of the UPS. (The entire UPS consists of three separate units that work together, and the isolation unit can continue to supply electricity to the load equipment while the other two units are being serviced.) The isolation unit also has EMI/RFI and surge suppression, and it weighs about 150 lbs. If I use this transformer, I am not sure whether it would be better to remove it from the isolation unit, or just use the entire isolation unit as-is.
(By the way, APC just recently discontinued this line and replaced it with a follow-up line, so these UPS units might be available for free or cheap. I got mine for less than $300 a few years ago, and recently an acquaintance got one for free that was about to be junked.)
2) Signal HPI-20 (2kVA) transformer. This 41 pound isolation transformer has dual taps both primary and secondary, and is thus capable of balanced output.
3) Union Denki MB-H-10 (2kVA) transformer. This 38 pound isolation transformer has dual taps both primary and secondary, and is thus capable of balanced output.
I don't know if this is a no-no, but I would like to use the 5kVA transformer for the input side of the Feliciazilla, and the two 2kVA transformers (independent of each other) on the output side. (If it turns out that the 5kVA transformer is capable of balanced output by itself, it may make sense to completely rethink this strategy.)
Can I have the 5kVA on the input side, "feeding" two 2kVA transformers on the output side? Or is this going to cause problems?
By the way, please remember that I intend to balance both 2kVA units, so they will actually be considered 1kVA balanced power supplies. Also, I intend to place a maximum load of 800VA on each, so the whole system will have a maximum load of less than 1.6kVA. And most of that will be in the form of two class AB 350W subwoofer amplifiers, so most of the time the load will be less than that.
This may be overkill, but I have the transformers, so I figure, why not? Besides, I hope to set up a home recording studio, and I want to be sure the noise floor is as low as possible.
And no, just in case anyone is wondering, I do not listen to "heavy metal" music . . .
Please give me your advice, suggestions, etc. Thanks!
Christopher Witmer
Tokyo
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Josh:
The Bybees are in series with the output legs. The ones I'm using are the second-generation small red ones, rated at 4 amps.
Interestingly, I think the bypass caps are a greater improvement then the Bybees. Of course, the whole effect is cumulative.
Larry
Hello Larry,
Realizing they could well be different animals, in the case of the BPT units Chris Hoff uses the Bybees immediately after the breaker, then follows the "high current" filter - transformer - caps... just thought it might be of interest!
Gordy
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Gordy:
Thanks for the info. When I was modding my Transcendent Sound Balanced Power Supply, I tried Bybees in various positions. Placing them on the outputs seemed to work best. I'll have to give them a try on the input side. In a perfect world, Bybees on inputs and outputs would probably work best, but I only have two which aren't being used somewhere else.
Larry
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That certainly makes sense as the Bybees' were far more noticable, in my experience, directly connected to speaker drivers than before the x-overs. Thanks!
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Christopher,
I'll be building my own version of Feliciazilla (with appropriate apologies to JoshK's wife for the terminology) with some 600va transformers this week. To be honest, I'd feel more comfortable with your endeavor if you'd build a smaller version for source components first. This would allow you to evaluate the concept first, without a large financial outlay. Furthermore (although I've no idea as to the typical power quality in Japan), this would allow you to evaluate the potential improvements available accross the whole audio spectrum, rather than those specific to a subwoofer.
Those Union Denki transformers look absolutely gorgeous! Tape wound M-cores with dual bobbins to boot, all shielded!
(http://www.uniondk.co.jp/img/photo/MNR-8-kai320.jpg)
The idea of using a large isolation transformer to feed smaller balancing transformers certainly makes sense. My previous efforts at a single input transformer and multiple output transformers was not not particularly successful, but I really did do it in a half assed way. As I understand it, you presently have a Signal HPI-20 which you could wire the input in series, and take the 2 secondaries and feed each to the separate, single primary of your 2 UnionDeneki transformers, and get balanced out from each of their series connected dual secondaries (grounding the center connection of the secondaries).
But prior to doing this, I'd strongly suggest using the 2 Union Denekis wired primary to primary for a single balanced output limited to 200va to see what you get. Dunno what to suggest for the capacitance betwixt and between, but I'd start with 15uf of motor run cap and work upwards.
Hopefully, folks will start to post their experiences with various bypass capacitors on this thread over the next few days.
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Questions, questions! I would be ever so grateful if someone could give me some guidance.
What is the method or reasoning behind the choice of motor run capacitor in any given "Felicia-type" balanced power system? Is it dependent on the specifications of the transformers being used, or on the specifications of the downstream devices, or is it a combination of both?
How does one know when one has the right capacitance value?
Is there a standard test that can be performed to check, or does one simply use one's ears? (Is there a safe way to induce noisy, crappy line conditions to see how well Felicia-type balanced power systems are working?)
If value "X" seems to work well, what would be the results of "2X, "10X," or "100X" values?
Can you create a dangerous situation through the wrong capacitance value?
Would it be okay to use a bank of multiple capacitors, or should only single capacitors be used? (It occurs to me that if a bunch of good capacitors of relatively small values could be found, the total capacitance value could be adjusted by adding in or removing capacitors from the bank.)
Is there an ideal voltage range, or is any voltage above a certain minimum voltage fine?
Thanks!
Christopher Witmer
Tokyo
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Christopher - Excellent questions.... Dang!
The choice of motor run capacitors for the Felicia was based on a number of reasons, both techincal and practical.
They're 'protected' and self healing, like 'X2' capacitors. Capacitors specified for 'accross the line' use failure mode is an open circuit rather than a short. When subjected to electrical conditions that would pierce the metallized polyethelyne they don't short. When subjected by a surge that would typically cause other capacitors to blow up, they purposely disconnect electrically, permenantly. You loose the capacitor, but aren't showered by shrapnel. These capacitors are found throughout our appliances wherever there is an AC motor, air conditioners, refrigerators, etc.... They don't heat up under constant AC conditions like many lesser quality capacitors.
While these are rather 'common', don't underestimate their quality in audio applications -
http://home.versatel.nl/geenius/Cap.html
and when it comes to Japanese built ASC motor run capacitors which you should find relatively easy to source -
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?forum=tubediy&searchtext=asc
While most builders will be using the specified Signal A41 transformers running with a secondary voltage of 28vac, which would allow the use of caps specified far lower than the 370VAC of the recomended Amrad caps (with the fused input 'hot' line providing requisite protection), I believe your intent is to use isolation transformers which would use the Japanese mains voltage of 100vac on the secondaries where the cap is placed. I'd not use anything less than a 180VAC rated run cap.
From a practical perspective, these very high quality caps are industrial commodity products, far less expensive than bespoke audiophile capacitors. They're even less expensive in the surplus market. I do not recommend used caps as the potential savings are simply not worth the uncertainty. They are terminated in multiple .25" quick connects allowing easy and convenient connection of bypass caps, etc....
The choice of the 15uf cap was done by JoshK and myself, when we found that the paralleling of a 5uf polyethelyne oil and foil cap ($140 new) added no perceptible improvement. Not overly scientific, but given our lack of instumentation, the best we could (and were willing to) do. This choice was specific to that Signal A41 transformer.
In your specific case with different larger, transformers, I'd start with 15-20uf and work upwards by paralleling additional caps. Twist all connections to and from transformers and caps.
Until I'm shown otherwise, I don't see any reasons not to use these overspecified motor run caps.
As Tianguis has pointed out, Felicia does benefit from capacitive bypassing. I defer to his experience and expertise, and am looking forward to his update.
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Is a 100uF/370V can *too large* for what we are talking about?
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Dunno, try it. It really would depend on the characteristics of the transformers you're flanking it with, and some other things......
Realize that (assuming you're running your windings feeding that capacitor a 100v AC you're going to be running around 600VAR (voltage amps reactive) and you're actually doing some serious power factor correction, passively. Which is a whole 'nuther discussion. Nor is this necessarily a bad thing. Just substantially beyond what I'm willing (or presently feel competent) to discuss. I'm simply going to say, do a google search on 'power factor correction' and point out that both Furman, who uses 80uf of line voltage passive power factor correction capacitance, and Audience similarly has some unknown amout of capacitance doing the same thing within the bowels of their new raved about Adept.
Two things are going on here.
1. That capacitor is functioning as an element of, at minimum, and 18db/octave low pass filter. This is great, as long as the attenuation at your 50/60hz line frequency is not material. As capacitors are not perfect, the inductance of any 100uf capacitor I'd use is going to require bypassing to compensate (its that 'in parallel' thing....) for its loss of efficacy at higher frequencies.
2. If you look the waveform of our mains power (especially in urban and/or industrial areas, the voltage and amperage waveforms are not coincident, in phase, nor do they necessarily look like each other. If you don't follow, go back and actually read what you found in the google search on 'power factor correction'. That bulk capacitance is 'correcting' that misalignment due to inductive loads, motors, transformers, etc.... The higher the ac voltage that capacitor is accross, the higher the VAR. This is why industries prefer to do their bulk passive power factor correction at 14,400 V AC, at their main distribution transformer.
Now I've thoroughly not answered your question, I'll summarize by saying, dunno, try it.
You're not building the Felicia, but rather her testosterone laden elder brother. I can't be more specific without knowing a whole lot more about the specific transformers, about the Tokyo power grid, and having the time and inclination. But I really would suggest starting with that 15uf and working upwards.
Prior to blazing new ground, start with, if not those specific Signal transformers, a similar Japanese sourced equivalent, 2 100-200va split bobbin EI cored transformers with dual primaries, and 15uf, to power a single source componet. I realize you've 'other fish to fry', but I really can't help you go directly there :?
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OK,
I am going to ask the newbie question, partially because I am not quite certain myself and partially for the benefit of other newbies who might not know either. You mentioned a few times why EI core transformers & interwinding shieldings are good because they minimize capactive coupling.
My naive understanding of cap. coupling is that it "couples" the ground to the hot line sending "stuff" to the ground. Can you explain why this is a bad thing and why it might sound bad?
From www.atis.org
capacitive coupling: The transfer of energy from one circuit to another by means of the mutual capacitance between the circuits. Note 1: The coupling may be deliberate or inadvertent. Note 2: Capacitive coupling favors transfer of the higher frequency components of a signal, whereas inductive coupling favors lower frequency components, and conductive coupling favors neither higher nor lower frequency components.
I guess my own confusion lies with why passing HF crap to ground would be bad. The only reason I can see is maybe this modulates the ground or contaminates other circuits in the same circuit. This is done intentionally in a PSU after the rectifier, but here it is ok because of the transformer behind it? If the capacitive coupling is inside the tx then why is it then different?
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Josh - capacitive coupling takes many forms, but I believe your question is about what is coupling to what. When I refer to capacitive coupling in a transformer, I'm referring to the coupling between primary and secondary. In an ideal transformer, the coupling between primary and secondary is magnetic, largely determined by the core configuration. But anytime we have conductors in proximity to each other we have by definition a capacitor. You can see this in the capacitive measures quoted for various cables and their construction. As you know, with higher capacitance, we have lower capacitive reactance with increasing frequency, and therefore more signal couples. Which is what we don't want to happen in this application of transformers, as we want to pass our mains frequency component, but want to block/dissapate/divert higher frequencies, noise, which is exactly what capacitive coupling between primary and secondary is facilitating.
So how do we minimize this 'bad' capacitive coupling? We've two options -
1. Put a grounded shield between the primary and seconday which interrupts the dielectric field, and diverts that coupling to ground, or
2. Physically separate the primary and secondary, as we can do with dual/multiple windings/ bobbins on EI, O, R, C and M cores.
The first works quite well, but is quite expensive as you can see by comparing prices between a typical toroidal power transformer and its 'medical grade' equivalent toroidal transformer, where the major difference in constuction is simply the existance of shielding between its overwound primary and secondary.
The second option if far easier and less costly to implement as its substantially a byproduct of straightforward automated constructon techniques.
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I have a choice between caps with internal bleeder resistors or caps without internal bleeder resistors. Which is better for our purposes?
Thanks!
Christopher Witmer
Tokyo
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Christopher - without, because it gives you the option of adding one to your specific liking, or not.
If the bleeder is actually mounted like this -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4722)
rather than actually internally, as you can desolder or snip it off and choose to mount (or not) one more to your liking.
As a side note - you can mount oil filled caps any way you want, right side up, on its side, upside down.... doesn't matter. Velcro or 'mushroom' strips that are adhesive backed to put on the cap and the mounting surface works a treat and you don't have to muck about with mounting clamps.
EDIT I just found those caps that you might have been referring to. Resistors internal to the caps are intended to drain potentially lethal voltages down below about 50v within a minute of removal of power. These are generally in the megaohm region, and (non empirically verified) they shouldn't effect objective or subjective measures. Their existance shouldn't enter into your purchase decision.
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Well, I just purchased some Magnetek 10.5uF/520VAC caps at $1 each. I doubt it makes much difference but one reason I chose these is that they have a rated tolerance of +/-3%.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7517133511
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Christopher - Those magneteks appear to be an excellent choice, as they'll give you a good range for experimentation. 2 of these in series will give you 5.25uf, 1 alone 10.5uf, 2 in parallel 21uf, etc....
To date, we've evaluated various transformers with configured seconday voltages between 12 and 36v AC, all with rather excellent results with the 15uf 'betwixt and between' capacitance. (The currently specified A41 Signal transformer are effectively running the secondaries at 14vac as the their configured for 28vac due to the series configuration, but as they're fed from series connected dual 115 primaries, 230vac, but only fed 115ac the seconday puts out half voltage.)
My hesitancy in responding specifically to you questions has been largely based on my assumption that you're planning on using transformers that will put roughly 50 or 100vac on your secondaries. I'm not by any means suggesting this won't be as effective, its just that it is outside the secondary voltages I've experimented with. (and with higher secondary voltages, vigilance needs to be increased. While I lacadasically discharge my oil caps with a potential of 15v with a screwdriver accross the cap's terminals, I'd be a more vigilant when working with possible volatages of 50-100v+. Actually its potentially 1.414 X the AC voltage)
I'm currently experimenting with transformers that are going to put 80vac on the secondaries. Higher voltage secondaries are going to have higher inductance than lower voltage ones, all thing being equal. This will give me a handle on how Felicia will perform under those circumstances and what adjustments in capacitance values would be required, and I'll be able to comment more specifically.
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Sorry if this query is a bit basic but I can't get my head around why you need dual primaries and dual secondaries (in series) for the Felicia.
Will the Felicia work using just a single primary and secondary for each transformer?
cheers
Tim
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Tim,
I've edited my post as Christopher's explanation below is really much better .......
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If you want balanced power, you need dual windings (or a center tap) on the output side.
Under the right set of design conditions, you could get away with just a single input on the primary side; i.e., if you had a transformer designed to take 120V input and split it into two 60V outputs on the secondary side. Such transformers are not all that common, but they do exist, and some of them were designed with balanced power applications in mind.
A much more common type of transformer is one that has dual 120V inputs and dual 120V outputs. This makes for a very versatile transformer. In North America, such a transformer can be used for 120V balanced power, but only by derating the kVA capacity by half. The same transformer, in the U.K., Australia, or another region where 240V is the standard household current, could deliver 240V balanced power without any derating whatsoever: just put in 240V and take out two 120V legs that can be joined to deliver balanced 240V power to the downstream equipment.
The Felicias use oddball (from the perspective of balanced AC power systems) transformers, because although they have the requisite dual taps, the secondaries are totally wrong voltage for standard AC powered equipment. The genius of the design focuses on their low price and says:
'What the heck, for this price we'll just use a symmetrical pair and boost the voltage back up to the proper level. And on top of that, we'll insert a hefty capacitor in between the two transformers, as that will give both power factor correction and also help convert normal mode noise into common mode noise that is more effectively eliminated. And because the capacitor is "trapped" in between two isolation transformers, any garbage resulting from its operation is "blockaded" on both the upstream and downstream sides.'
So, to recap with regard to your question, there is a theoretical (and actually encountered, but not all that commonly) transformer design in which a single primary side input is all that required to achieve balanced power. But in all cases, dual secondary side outputs are required for balanced power, as required voltage "X" is achieved by summing of two "1/2X" legs. If the secondary side lacks dual outputs, it may still be useful as an isolation transformer, but not for power balancing.
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All:
I've been playing about with the Felicia since I picked up the original "Treasure Box" from Occam several weeks ago. I toted that one to a NY Audio Rave meet shortly after, where it was warmly received, providing nice power to a Modwright pre. The Felicia stayed in the system, with various tweaks, for the next seven hours, pulling duty with several components.
Last week, Occam and I got together and tried a number of cap configurations in the Felicia, powering my Transcendent GG pre (Lowther ML TL's, CD-Pro2M source, modded T-Amp). We both preferred the sound of an Arcotronics 15 uf, 450 v. , bypassed with a Dayton .1 uf 400 v. and .01 uf 600 v. AudioCap Theta. We also tried an Auricap 1.0 uf by itself, which seemed to lose a little too much "sparkle".
During the week, I built another Felicia, using VH Audio cryoed 12 AWG wire for the tranny/cap runs. Yesterday, we got together again and swapped in an Aerovox 14 uf. 180 v. oil cap. After a few minutes it was plain that we were on to something. We tried the same bypass configurations and, in this case, the Auricap was clearly superior. This combo has taken the Felicia to a new level in my system, which previously had power supplied by a modded Transcendent Balanced Power Supply. Of course, the usual caveats apply: YMMV, power down and drain the cap when fiddling, don't get zapped.
I'm using the Felicia with small Bybees on both output legs. The Bybees are a nice touch, but don't nearly have the impact of proper caps and bypassing. I have a few more bypass configurations to try. I'm awaiting arrival of a few parts for a second Felicia, to power the CD-Pro2M and/or Hagerman Cornet phono pre. The Felicia provided a nice boost to the CD-Pro when I tried it. Multiple Felicias will be cumulative in effect.
The next NY Audio Rave is going to focus on power conditioning. A goodly number of commercial conditioners will be tested. Should be revealing. :wink:
Regards,
Larry Welsh
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Folks-
As a result of Larry's great efforts, I'm updating the first post of this thread to reflect his findings. We've come up with 2 alernative caps to the previously recommended Amrad. The first is a Arcotronics 15uf motor run cap (plastic bodied, not 'protected', but rated for accross the line use @ 450 VAC.) This is available for $2 at BGmicro, the same place that you obtain the recommended transformers from. The second is an oval metal protected motor run cap, a Aerovox (Now Parallax ne Magnetek) 180 VAC 14uf cap, also $2, but from Hosfelt.
IMO, both are substantial upgrades over 15uf Amrad 370VAC oil caps. I'd hypothosised that the higher voltage rating of the Arcotronics was the reason for my preferrence. And then we evaluated the 180VAC 14uf Aerovox.... go figure. At this point, I don't have a clue.
Both Larry and I prefer the Aerovox over the Arcotronics, both bypassed and unbypassed. But we're both old farts and have a long history with tube equipment. Others of the Spectral/MIT 'school' might well prefer the Arcotronics from BG. YMMV.
We evaluated a number of bypass caps, a copper leaded 30nf silver mica from my private stash, a combo of a .1uf Dayton foil with a .01uf AudioCap Theta, and a 1uf 450v Auricap and various combinations. We both preferred the Auricap on the Aerovox by a large margin, as it made everything mo' betta.
Again, I want to emphasise that none of these selections are definitive. Why did Larry only evaluate a 1uf Auricap instead of a .47, .22 or .1? Because thats all he had at hand. Same goes for the main cap. Larry, Josh and I have evaluated about 5 different main caps, but this hasn't been exhastive. Felicia is an 'open source' project and its improvement largely depends on the input and efforts of the DIY audio community. I see lots of caps in the 12-20uf range that I'd love to try out as the main cap. There are regularly scads of them up on Ebay. But given that I've now about 18 transformers laying about, whose only purpose is now doorstop, Mrs. Occam is understandably annoyed, so I'm trying to minimize the deliveries from the UPS man.
I just got a call from Larry. He told me that the orientation of the Auricap makes a significant difference. I trust Larry's ears. I've no problem with cap orientation with regards to signal direction or as bypass to ground, but in this particular situation where the caps are accross out of phase floating AC, I'm at a total loss for an explanation. :?
EDIT Actually, it is quite logical. The main cap is also a metallized polyprop cap, and the efficacy of the bypass would be impacted by the orientation of both with respect to each other.
C'mon folks!!! We need more input from builders.
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Sorry, can anyone give me a quick rundown on the theory behind having tinier bypass caps in conjunction with the big sucker?
Thanks!
Chris Witmer
Tokyo
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I hope this wont be considered a temporary hijack of the thread as I have the Transformers on order for the felicia.....in the mean time I pulled out a Oneac CS1115 I had picked up used from someone in the past and decided to clean up the execution to have as a fun comparison when the balanced power project is complete
The oneac has a typical filter config(Pi?) composed of 2 inductors and multiple caps before the transformer Primary and 2 metal can 5uf (polyprop in oil?) in parallel after the secondaries.
Those will/have been removed, I plan on hardwiring a PC to the primary (through the existing switch/breaker and probably some MOV's and a .047uf Xrated cap across line to neutral)) and hardwire a cord to the secondary as well with a female IEC.
My question is both the primary and secondary have a white/green/black wiring(actually the primary also has 2 additional wires Red+Brown that run to a terminal barrier but are unconnected to anything...I assume for different voltage selects)...........the primary side green was Grounded to chasis
the secondary green was connected in parallel with the white (neutral) on the output caps..........additionally the original output duplex outlets had the neutral connected to the gnd screw and then on to the chasis gnd.
I'm assuming this is some kind of technical gnd?
My question is are both of these Green wire from the Elect shield and should just be run to chasis gnd along with the PC's green/Gnd
Hope someone can clarify and thanks for the time
lance
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Christopher - simply do a search on diyaudio.com or audioasylum.com in the 'tweaks' or 'tubediy' forums on 'capacitor' and 'bypassing'. You'll see much argument on how to do it, but basic agreement as to the why, to provide a parallel low impedance path for high frequencies, as the construction of large capacitors leads to high inductive reactance at higher frequencies, which the bypass capacitor seeks to address.
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Lance - I believe you are correct, the separate shield on the secondary winding allows the connection to a separate 'techincal ground'. The equitech site has far better info than I could provide.
http://www.equitech.com/support/techgrnd.html
But if you'd go to the bother of a technical ground, why not just run a dedicated line with a separate isolated ground which does much the same...
For your purposes just connect all the grounds (green wires) to a single 'star ground' connection on your chassis. This would be the grounds from your cords (both input and output) and the primary and secondary shields.
On the output the connection of the secondaries white (neutral) line to the green (ground) is reestablishing the neutral-ground bonding as required for a new service point by the NEC. The exception to this is isolated power as required where exposed to flamable anesthetics and 'wet' conditions in hospital environments.
Whether you do this neutral-ground bonding in a star to that central grounding point, or as a daisy chain, depends on how obscessional you are. I'm not going there....
If you need to pursue this, PM me, and I'll move your question and my response to a new thread.
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Thanks Occam for your help...I have PM'd you for one brief follow-up question
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Does anyone know the lowdown on a UTC HIT-3 transformer? (TF4R03YY) This is a milspec transformer, weighs 15kg (33 pounds), is double shielded, and has a single set each of primary and secondary taps, 1:1 115V / 3.5A. I am a bit amazed that this 115V 3.5A transformer is so heavy. It is being sold locally for the equivalent of US$25; I'm wondering if I should pick it up or pass on it . . .
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One more Felicia up and running! I'm using the Aero 14uF caps and 1.0 + .01 bypasses, because that's what I had already. It's one of two going into the same box, the other only lacks the fuses and output cord... kinda got excited and had to hear it in action. It's now driving a transport, tomorrow I'll pull it back out and finish the second one... to drive a tube pre.
:D so far...
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All:
I've had a second Felicia running my CD-Pro2M and Hagerman Cornet for a while and the results were great. The second one used a single Auricap 1.0 uf 450 v. bypass cap. Both use the Aerovox 15 uf oil cap.
Today, I got in a bunch of Auricaps to mess with. Occam came over and we tried a bunch of combos. Not mentioning the combos we felt didn't work, I made up a .47, .1 and .01 uf Auricap combo for my first Felicia (powering a Transcendent Grounded Grid pre) and the benefits were almost immediately evident: greater space and separation, better image focus, greater detail over the 1.0, .1, .01 combo.
I then stuck the old bypass combo on the CD's Felicia. Wow! Space and detail increased in spades. Paul liked the increase in PRAT and musicality. I appreciated the ability to distinguish every voice (instrument OR vocal) in complex music. Bass is way tighter and better controlled. Over-run and ringing on cymbals and piano notes are gone. This combo is the clear winner so far, by a wide margin. Of course, YMMV, though I don't think it will.
Regards,
Larry Welsh
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So your saying the .47uf was the ticket?
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Josh:
Not just the .47, but the .47, .1, .01 combo. The .47 alone doesn't cut it.
Larry
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All:
A few things I forgot to mention:
1: The Felicia seems quieter with the transformers mounted at 90 degrees to each other.
2: Ditto wrapping the Aerovox cans in Stillpoints ERS.
3: Isolation makes a difference. Occam was very surprised at the improvement when the Felicia was positioned on 3 Mi-Rollers. Rollerblocks also work. I'm sure some of the spendy isolation devices would have the same effect.
Larry
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... 3: Isolation makes a difference. Occam was very surprised at the improvement when the Felicia was positioned on 3 Mi-Rollers...
Stunned speechless. A very rare occurance for me.
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What kind of trafo's and caps would I need to build a Felicia-like device that supplies power to a PC (300w power supply) and a DK Integrated amp?
Am I out of the league of EI transformers this size? Is the cost going to skyrocket to build this?
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"EI" is literally giving us a graphical illustration of the transformer core configuration, and EI transformers are pretty standard, regardless of how large you might go.
The general concept behind Felicia calls for a pair of transformers, but they don't have to be identical, and neither is it necessary for BOTH of them to have dual taps. The side of the transformer connecting to the equipment you're trying to protect must have dual taps if you want balanced power. The type of transformer you want to look for is one where you could input 240V and output two channels of 120V each; you will instead be inputting 120V and taking out two channels of 60V each, which are then tied together to give you 120V balanced power.
Here is an example of a transformer that looks like it could be a candidate for a large Felicia type unit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42881&item=7521664088
The one shown above is nominally a 3kVA transformer, but with balanced power the rating would be halved to 1.5kVA. Most integrated amplifiers and PCs could be connected to that wit room to spare.
Just a single transformer like the one shown above will give good results, but of course it wouldn't be a large Felicia unit. You would still need another transformer, but it could be a plain vanilla 1:1 isolation transformer. (It is a plus if it is shielded: key search terms are "medical transformer" "hospital transformer" etc.)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66995&item=7521196590
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14968&item=5780050874
Anyway, there are plenty of candidate transformers out there, once you know what you are looking for. Then it is just a matter of what sort of budget you have. If you wait long enough, you will find a unit you can afford.
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Hmmm.. that Xentek looks nice... I greatly appreciate your response, Christopher.
-Carl
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Our initial venture into more powerful Felicias, for components like computers, plasma TVs, etc has proved fruitless, at least if lack of hum is important to you. This doesn't mean it isn't possible to build one that doesn't hum but our experiments with readily available and inexpensive powerful trannies has given us some trouble. The signal transformer from BG Micro is great in that it doesn't hum when configured as written.
So far the solutions derived are for more modest current draws but this still does not exclude most sources, preamps and even some more efficient or smaller powered amps like tripath amps. The results are cummulative and profound. Honestly in my limited experience in the audiophile realm this is one of the big discoveries, if not THE big discovery. It just goes to show how power supply design and filtering is critical in getting the most of any circuit.
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I assume you are talking about acoustic hum from the transformer itself, rather than hum in the electronic signal, correct?
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Yes, hum from the transformers themselves.
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I'm confused about whether the fuse on the input hot line should be 1A or 2A for the version of Felicia shown in the sticky post. The instructions there mention a 1A fuse, then a 2A fuse for versions 2 and 3 (I'm guessing the 2A, but I thought I'd check before trying fuses randomly).
I have to pop the cover of my preamp to see what kind of fuse is inside of it to figure out the right value for the output lines. Is there a generic value we can use for the output lines or does it really need to be component specific?
Thanks! I think I've got all the parts (picked up both 1A and 2A fuses) and will be trying to put together a new Felecia later this evening!
..Stan
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Stan,
On the outputs of Felicia, I'd go with whatever fuses are in the component is to be powered. As this is a public project, with constructors having various levels of experience, its an awkward question when someone says, 'but my component already has both lines fused and switched internally, so do I need those output fuses?'. Being a public project, my response is 'yes, as inevitably you're going to forget and use Felicia on a component that doesn't have both lines fused and switched......' So my standard response is going to be always use the same fuses on the outputs as you have in the components to be powered.
On the input of Felicia I personally use an Airpax 1amp toggle circuit breaker. (no, I don't know where you can get them on the surplus market) on the 'hot' line, the narrow blade of the plug. Cicuit breakers typically have trip characteristics similar to slo-blo fuses so they don't blow with turnon surges. The purpose of this is to provide safety for Felicia herself. If someone forgoes the output fuses/breakers and they plug in a poweramp :nono: , or the accross the line caps short, I want the fuse/breaker to blow prior to frying the transformers.
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Occam,
Thanks - I found the Tempest's fuse in a little compartment in the IEC socket. It says it is a T4L 250V, which I believe means it's a 4A, 250V slow-blow fuse.
Looks like I bought fast-blow fuses, so I'll have to go back to the store on Monday to get a slow blow 1A fuse for the input line on the Felecia and a couple of 4A slow blows for the output lines. If I'm lucky, they'll have a 1A circuit breaker instead.
This isn't surplus, but is this the kind of circuit breaker that you're talking about?
http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/newark/en_US/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=03C7598&N=4
I found this 3 pole, 3 toggle one at surplussales.com
https://www.surplussales.com/Electrical/ElecCirB-7-3.html
Thanks again for your help!
..Stan
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Hi Stan,
Mouser has better prices for switches, NKK 25a selection is here...
http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?&handler=data.listcategory&D=*nkk*%2b*25a*%2b*toggle*%2b*switch*&Ne=300&terms=nkk+25a++toggle+switch&Ntt=*nkk*%2b*25a*%2b*toggle*%2b*switch*&Dk=1&Ns=SField&N=390&crc=false
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Thanks, Gordy!
I've just downloaded the whole Mouser PDF catalog - seems like a good thing to have around.
I wonder if they can combine this with the other order I just sent them? I'll mention it in the order comments.
Thanks again!
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Stan,
The 4amp fuses, whether slo blo or regular, are somewhat surprising in a preamp. I'm certainly not questioning Klaus' design decisions, but would suggest you check your manual or with Klaus. Even with 14Kuf of capacitance and a toroid transformer, 4 amps seems a bit much.
Yes, those are the airpax breakers I use, but they only cost me $1ea, but I don't know where to source any more for those prices. I'd suggest a simple 1amp slo-blo fuse on the input 'hot' line as its going to be sufficient for most any source component and keeps within the rms constraints of Felicia's transformers,
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Stan,
And anyone else who is constructing Felicia. Before plugging any component into Felicia, you must at minimum, test the voltages!
Assuming yours terminates in a female IEC to be plugged into your component - With your meter set to at least a 150VAC scale, make sure that you read line voltage 110-130VAC (depending on your locality) accross the parallel blade openings, and half that, from each of those blade openings to the center lower ground. Unless you get thoses readings, do not plug a components in or power it with the Felicia, but post here for help in resolving the problem.
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Hi,
Just compared the 14 uF Aerovox with a 20 uF 440VAC ASC oil filled polypropylene. Both were bypassed with Auricaps. Both had at least 48 hours of burn in. My ears prefer the ASC caps. The ASC caps were from Michael Percy Audio @ $10.95. He mistakenly sent me the 40 uF caps which I tried and they were bad, no highs. But the 20s are sweet.
Philip
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Philip:
Interesting. What equipment are you powering with the Felicia? I'm sure the 40 uF was too big, but the 20 uF may be the ticket. What values are you bypassing with?
Regards,
Larry Welsh
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Stan,
The 4amp fuses, whether slo blo or regular, are somewhat surprising in a preamp. I'm certainly not questioning Klaus' design decisions, but would suggest you check your manual or with Klaus. Even with 14Kuf of capacitance and a toroid transformer, 4 amps seems a bit much.
Yes, those are the airpax breakers I use, but they only cost me $1ea, but I don't know where to source any more for those prices. I'd suggest a simple 1amp slo-blo fuse on the input 'hot' line as its going to be sufficient for most any source component and keeps within the rms constraints of Felicia's transformers,
Hey Occam, My Purist has 2 4 amp one on either side of the line. Curt says that probably a 1 or 2 amp fuse will do the job, but since this amp has the capability of drawing some current when needed, he decided to use the 4 amp type. The transformer in thisucker is big for a preamp.
Ray
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Larry,
Three separate Felicias are powering an Orion active crossover, CD-Pro2, and an Aksa GK-1R. I am bypassing with a .47 uF and a .01 uF auricap as you suggested. When I was evaluating the different caps, I had to physically switch caps so there was a time lapse but the ASC was definitely better. I tried a 1 uF instead of the .47 uF but couldn't hear a difference in the music. The .47 may have better imaging. Will have to get a DPDT switch, but right now I'm very satisfied.
Thanks for sharing,
Philip
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PT,
Yours is exactly the sort of feedback I'd been hoping for. By reputation, the ASC (especially the Japanese produced ones), the GE 97f, and the (crafted of unobtainium) Continental aircraft caps are the top of the heap.
Larry, Josh and I have experimented with numerous caps and are in the throes of 'cap burnout' (us, not the caps!). We've also restricted ourselves to whats largely available in the surplus market. But (IMO), Felicia has proven herself to be an excellent project, not only 'for the money', but regardless of price, and therefore justify upping the ante and evaluating more bespoke and costly components. (and based upon no empirical evidence, I'd think round caps would be prefferable to oval caps...)
I'd hoped that we could find 'perfection' at 'cheap SOB' prices, but alas.... a Auricap is simply better for bypass duties than a commodity Wima MP3X2. Surprise, surprise.
Rigorously evaluating components is also costly and royal pain in the arse. Even within a given vendors line one should (with the ASCs for ex) obtain the 12.5, 15, 17.5, 20, 25uf caps, all at a single voltage rating to zero in on the ideal capacitance value for the chosen transformers. Then, upon finding that value, one should evaluate whether going up or down on voltage rating impacts the subjective qualities. And then you repeat that process for different vendors. I have to admit that my own evaluations have not been as rigorous as I'd have liked.
For anyone interested, ASC oil caps are available in a variety of values and voltages from Allied -
http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.asp?FN=1094.pdf
as wll as GE motor runs -
http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.asp?FN=1120.pdf
and they've Mallory and CDE motor caps as well!
Newark also has a better variety of GE motor caps -
http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/newark/en_US/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=46F3413&N=0#
FWIW
Phillip - could you elaborate on your evaluation of the subjective differences you found between the Aerovox and ASC caps? Has it been a worthwhile project? What improvements did you find and did they vary from component to component? Have you compared Felicia to any other power conditioners and what were the differences?
Regards,
Paul
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Paul,
"Evaluation" ... this sounds like an assignment. No, really this has been fun. Can't believe caps completely outside the box; cd, pre-amp, and crossover, makes a bigger difference than ones inside. My goal is to have a system that will present the music as if it were "live". The ASC cap gets me there. The noise that is not part of the music is attentuated so there is more blackness around notes. I love the CD Beauty and the Beast track "Home". When I play it, she is almost standing there in front of me sing with all that emotion of not being home. I also enjoy Earl Klugh, he has violins follow the melody guitar line. In his CD "Kool" the first track "Movin On", you can hear the violin on the intro. Then for the first one or two lines the violins can barely be heard. I can hear them better with the ASC caps. So the ASC caps separate instrumental parts better than the Aerovox.
This has been a very worthwhile project. Cheaper than Vcaps and probably bigger impact on sound.
Haven't tried felicia on individual components, just did it on all three at once.
Haven't tried any other conditioner.
Having fun,
Philip
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Hi,
A little correction. The bypass Auricaps values are:
.47 uF, .1 uF, and .01 uF.
Just as Larry had suggested. I grouped the .1 and .01 caps on one spade and thought of them as one.
Philip
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I'm trying to think of a way of determining how well a particular Felecia works. I'm thinking that you put in a sine wave at a frequency, then measure the output. You sweep the sine wave from near DC up to however high you'd like to go. You could measure RMS voltage at the output. Ideally, I would assume that you'd want zero RMS at every location save 60Hz, when you would want about 120V (depending on what your line voltage). You could use something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=97198&item=7525073480&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
Hmmm...When I get time and build my own Felecia, I might use this technique.
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I'm trying to think of a way of determining how well a particular Felecia works....
First, you steal a chicken..... After the chicken soup is done, you taste it. :wink: You can then invite your friends over and have them bring their verisions of chicken soup....
A double pole, double throw switch allows one to switch between different soups on the fly.
I too would like an in depth technical analysis of various filtler topologies and implementations, but I'm not going to spend the $2k for a Fluke 43B. If anyone would like to lend/give me one, I'd be more than happy to report the results. Power quality analysis requires evaluation of the residual with the fundamental present, but removed, i.e. much like a THD analysis, the fundamental must go through the DUT, and be nulled out via a notch filter @50/60hz, and the efficacy of that filter is the resultant residual (crap that extends into the MHz range). Audio Electronics had a 'simple' notch filter project for THD measurement that might be applicable. Trying to look at noise on an oscilliscope that is swinging 120 x 1.414 p-p simply hides the noise. Evaluation the power factor correction capabilities is worse....
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Here's my Franken-Felicia (no disrespect meant to the original project's namesake). I built this for a friend in exchange for another piece of gear.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2177)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2178)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2179)
This power conditioner is for my friend's home theater system so I put it together with that gear in mind. His HT rig is a melding of cutting edge and vintage gear: DLP RPTV, top of the line DVD player and HT Receiver, DirecTV receiver, Tube monoblock amps for the left and right speakers, tube preamp, and vintage FM receiver. I wanted to provide individual filtering, isolation, and sufficient current for each component.
Using the Ikea box that Occam recommended, I mounted five AC double outlets to one of the side panels along with a standard 15A IEC inlet. One double outlet is an unfiltered GFCI that serves as an on-off switch and circuit breaker. Each of the eight remaining AC jacks are separately filtered as described below. All the filtered outlets are fed by the GFCI. I used Lowes 12 gauge THHN wire throughout, twisting or braiding wherever possible. Everything is star grounded to the GFCI.
For the low current gear I put together four separate Felicia circuits; one each for the DVD player, DirecTV receiver, preamp and tuner. I used the BG Micro transformers and Amrad 14uF caps. I bypassed each Amrad with .15uF 400v MKPs that I had on hand. Each Felicia is double fused (one on each leg) with 1 amp fast blows. The transformers and caps are mounted to the bottom of the box while the fuse blocks are mounted to the inside front panel next to the AC outlets.
The TV, HT receiver and tube amps obviously pull more current than the Felicia can handle. For each of these I used 10 amp Kobiconn RFI/EMI filters (Mouser.com # 437-10CA1). I used an additional 10 amp Kobiconn filter to feed the four Felicia circuits. The Kobiconn filters (chrome boxes in the pictures) are mounted to the inside back panel of the box, above the tops of the transformers.
I sanded and stained the box and used black AC outlets and plates to dress it up a bit. Close inspection will reveal my rudimentary woodworking and finishing skills. But from across the room, it doesn’t look half-bad.
Before I plugged any gear into it, I triple checked continuity and voltages for all outlets. The GFCI and Kobiconn filtered outlets all measured ~120vac across the outlets, ~120vac from hot to ground and 0vac from neutral to ground. The Felicia outlets all measured ~120vac across the outlets and ~60vac from hot to ground and neutral to ground. On my first measurement I got nothing out one of the Felicias. Further inspection revealed that I had inadvertently clipped one of the transformer leads. Once that was resoldered, it measured fine.
So how does it sound? I tested it by plugging the PC directly into the wall and plugging my CD player (Sony NS999ES) into the PC. Everything else remained plugged into my Equitech 2Q. I rotated between an unfiltered GFCI outlet, a Kobiconn filtered outlet, and a Felicia outlet. My music selections were the Floristan Trio SACD (chamber), the Telarc Dukas SACD (orchestral), a Tierney Sutton CD (jazz), and a Joe Satriani SACD (techno-noise). Other than the Floristan disc, none of these are reference recording for me, but it was what I felt like listening to.
Unfiltered GFCI: Not bad, but I could definitely tell the sound quality had taken a step back from what I’m used to hearing with the Equitech. Flat, constricted soundstage. Sloppy bass definition. Digital crispies surrounding key instruments/voice.
Kobiconn Filter: Nice, noticeable improvement. Soundstage began to open up and deepen. Better pitch definition in the bass region. Smoother, more liquid presentation.
Felicia: Wow! Where did all that energy and information come from? I was now listening way into the soundstage. Subtle accents and melody lines previously buried were now weaving their way through the music. Detail and delineation galore, deeper, wider soundstage AND that magic sense of organic musical flow. Very impressive!
Finally, I compared the Felicia to my beloved Equitech. It was really close, but I have to say that the Felicia did a better job of conveying the organic flow of the music than the Equitech. I’m not gonna ditch my Equitech because of its high current capabilities, but I will be building up some Felicias for my CD player and preamp. My friend should be quite pleased with this PC.
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Very coolio Russ, let us know how you set it up, what config, etc.
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Russ,
Very, very nice! I'm amazed you could fit 4 Felicias inside that Ikea box, and that the thin bottom could support the 8 transformers. In my Felicia triplex, I ended up gluing a 3/8 plywood reinforcing rectangle (allowing clearance from the sides) to provide strength. I assembled in on the sandwiched bottom, and with much cursing put the sides on after testing.
Echoing Josh, so how does it sound? Whats with those additional hermetically sealed filters?....
Looking forward to your comments.
Felicitations,
Paul
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I apologize for my lame digital photography. The shot of the front panel is supposed to show a black GFCI outlet in the center, an IEC inlet below it and black quad outlets on either side. Except for the GFCI, The top row of outlets are wired to Felicias, the bottom row to the Kobiconn filters.
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Russ,
Your digital photography is quite good. I was actually going to post a photo of my own three way Felicia in that same Ikea box under construction, with the title -
'nekk'd Felicia in a three way' until I remembered for whom I'd named the project... I'll post a pic later with a title that is less prone to have JoshK beat the crap out of me. I'm quite pleased that you consider Felicia, within her power limits, at least the subjective equal of your Equitech. High praise indeed.
When you build you Felicias for your own use, at minimum, consider using the $2 Aerovox from Hosfelt in lieu of the $4 Amrad. The Aerovox unbypassed is IMO far better than the Amrad regardless of whatever bypass you stick on the Amrad. (as a result of Phillip's posts, I have some ASC, GE and some other motor run oil caps on order and will comment after Larry and I have tested them)
Thanks,
Paul
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I've always considered myself a thrifty soul, or as my long suffering wife describes me, 'a cheap SOB'. Which is the setup for the following cautionary tale -
Larry(Tianguis) has spent considerable time and efforts evaluating various bypass caps for the different motor run caps tested for use in Felica. Those bypass caps have included silver micas, polyprop and foil, polystyrene and foil, and metalized polyprops. Much to my surprise (but not to Larry, and I assume others), he found that the Auricaps to be substantially better than others. Specifically, he found that a combination of a .47, .1 and .01 uf Auricap in parallel with the main oil cap made everything, in engineering parlance, 'mo betta'. The .47 was prefferable to a 1uf, and amazingly enough the .01 had a major impact on bass definition (don't ask me why :? ), and leaving the .1 out resulted in a lack of 'coherence'.
But as She Who Must be Obeyed says, I'm a cheap SOB, so I decided that I obviously could get very close by using only 2 bypass caps, a .47uf and either a .047 or .033. Nope, didn't work. Not that this combo wasn't good, it was just that it wasn't nearly as 'mo betta' as Larry's preferred combo. Go figure.
Obviously, one man's massive improvement is another's minor change. It depends on your system and metrics. The comments you heard from those at Daniel's NYRave were based upon Felicia with the original Amrad motor cap. The currently reccomended Aerovox motor cap is IMO substantially better. Even unbypassed, the currently configuration of Felicia has temendous groovosity. But with Larry's reccomended bypasses, its that much better.
YMMV
In my experience, Felicia responds to component changes moreso than any other project I've dealt with. Its just a frigg'n powerconditioner. It responds to everything. Physical isolation has a major impact ( I think mi-rollers are the bomb on Felicia ). ERS cloth around the oil caps add resolution. Grounding the metal bodied run caps opens up the soundstage (that actually has sound engineering behind it and is standard practice). The internal wire changes the sound, and hopefully Larry will comment on that. And all of this is really beginning to piss me off, because its turning me into a 'tweek', a genus of audiophile I've previously sneered at.....
Penny wise and pound foolish,
Occam
PS - Felicia powering the Teac LP-7000 tripath amp really works a treat...
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Senor Tweaky and all Felicia-ites:
Gotta comment. First, Occam and I seem to hear the same thing with component changes, which makes multi-hour sessions amenable to both of us. Today was the third of such in my system, each involving multiple changes and switch-outs. Our "scientific" approach to each of these sessions has primarily involved a single CD, particularly 2 or 3 tracks. Occam originally hated it, but has come to know what it says. I always liked it, but chose it for its dynamic range and frequency extremes. Even my wife, Jane, has come to appreciate the subtleties, although she originally didn't like it, either.
Occam's new "triple" Felicia uses wire from Volex PC's for the x-fmr to cap wiring runs. My "reference" Felicia used Chris VH 12 AWG cryoed wire. The Volex wire gives better dynamics and sound stage, a bit less detail, a bit more "mud", but a better overall presentation than the VH. However, we're talking about brandy-new everything. I expect it to improve with time and will change my "ref" to Volex internal wire.
In the Felicia, and several other apps, I've been finding that very small caps (in bypass) contribute significantly to bass reproduction. This seems to go counter to intuition, but I've found it to be true many times in power supplies or conditioning or coupling.
The Auricaps seem to be the best combo of price vs. performance. Nothing I've tried sounds as good. Can't justify more "boutiquey" caps.
Kudos to Occam for the triple Felicia. It's a monster. We'll open some ears this week-end.
Larry
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tianguis :
Our "scientific" approach to each of these sessions has primarily involved a single CD, particularly 2 or 3 tracks. Occam originally hated it, but has come to know what it says. I always liked it, but chose it for its dynamic range and frequency extremes.
And which cd might this be....thanks !!![/list:u]
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Bassfreak:
I knew you'd ask, so I deliberately didn't mention the title. Would you believe Bad Plus "Vistas"? One track has always been "Flies on my Ass", or something like that. It's a work-out. I've become addicted. So has Jane, 'though not originally by choice. As I improved things, I thought one of my Lowthers had a voice coil rub. Not!
Larry
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:lol: :lol: :lol: And I was thinking Black Light Syndrome.....
The Bad Plus title..."Keep the bugs off you glass, and the bears off your ass".... 8) [/list:u]
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Finally, I compared the Felicia to my beloved Equitech. It was really close, but I have to say that the Felicia did a better job of conveying the organic flow of the music than the Equitech. I’m not gonna ditch my Equitech because of its high current capabilities, but I will be building up some Felicias for my CD player and preamp. My friend should be quite pleased with this PC
Did you try the Felicia hooked up through the equitech instead of into the wall directly? I'm thinking the trade-off would be more mains filtering vs. less isolation from the power amp. It may or may not sound better, but it would be interesting to find out.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4940)
Here's a nice 2KVA 1:1 "noise zero" transformer . . . the price is the equivalent of US$300, however.
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Is it recommened to use just a single two-plug outlet for this, or can it handle two outlets, or do you need one for each outlet? Thanks
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James - Thats totally up to you. Others have shared a single Felicia (the 2 transformers and cap(s)) between 2 components and it works quite well as long as those 2 components combined draw doesn't exceed about 90watts rms. But a Felicia dedicated to each source component provides better isolation between components and allows more headroom with respect to power draw.
I'm a minimalist sort of a guy and don't actually use outlets on my own Felicias, and simply have each of mine output via a powercord terminated in a IEC female which plugs directly into a component. In those situations where I've demonstrated Felica powering a component with a captive 2 prong powercord, I've simply used a IEC to NEMA adapter -
http://www.stayonline.com/detail~ID~3095.html
But this has simply been an expedient and easy solution, not necessarily the appropriate 'audiophile' solution where an actual outlet might be better. Similarly, if you've specific costly powercords that you prefer to use that you don't want to put under the knife, using your preferred outlets might be more appropriate.
As I've settled on Volex powercords, my 'octopus' approach is cheap and easy and works for me. But there is nothing specific about the Felicia that would preclude you from using outlets, Neutric Powercons, etc....
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Speaking of current draw Occam, I installed the Franken-Felicia in my friend's video system, and it totally flopped!
The reason? Higher than anticipated current draw from the components. His Audio Research SP3 preamp (60 watt draw) and Denon 5910 DVD player (80 watt draw for a DVD player!) wouldn't work with the Felicia. Neither would power up and function correctly. They worked fine with the Kobiconn filters which did significantly improve the performance of his system. But no Felicia magic for his gear.
I'm going to rebuild the piece for him with just the Kobiconn filters, and keep the Felicias for me (Marv Albert voice "YES!").
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I'm a lurker, for the most part, but am VERY intrigued by what I've been reading about this project.
I live in Toronto Canada.
Can anyone give me info as to whether a capable transformer can be had up here?
I would LOVE to avoid the pain in the arse it is shipping heavy stuff across the border AND the ridicules additional tariffs I tend to pay.
OR would someone have an idea of what I can expect to pay for shipping for 4 of these transformers, if I were to order from B.G Micro.
Oh, and one last question, I have already built two of the Jon Risch power conditioners (a very nice project I might add), therefore if I were to plug the Felicas in those......would I be able to avoid some of the filtering in the schematic?
I'm a bit confused as you can tell.
Any info anyone could provide would be GREATLY appreciated.
Cheers everyone, Fred in Canada
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Fredly,
The only filtering components in Felica is the 2 transformers without which you don't get the balanced output and the cap(s) which eliminating sort of defeats its purpose. I really don't see anything you could leave out, and don't think combining your present Risch filters will get you anything. But that comment isn't based on actual experience.
Sadly, the US Priority Parcel shipping which allows shipping 4 of the BG transformers anywhere in the US for $8.70 doesn't extend to Canada. You can calculate the US international rates to Canada by going to www.usps.com and using the postal codes and weights. Each transformer weighs about 6lbs.
Sources in Canada would include
www.sayal.com
www.torontosurplus.com which is on Gordon Baker Road, and the last remaining surplus store on Queen Street, which was there last year when I visited. Its a great store and you never know what you'll find there.
And at retail there is partsconexion.com which has good prices for retail but are substantially more than the BG surplus transformers.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/transformers.html
their Hammond 185G28 @$36usd (under filament terminal 115-230v) is the exact equivalent of the Signal sourced transformer from BGMicro. If you spluge for that I'd get the 185G36 which is the same save for the 36v secondary which would give less losses due to the higher secondary.
voltage. Alternatively, you could use a single transformer, the 185G230 whose dual 115/230 winding for both primary and secondary would allow you to provide about 88w rms balanced power but without the massive filtering of the dual transformer implementation. Not having tried it, I can't comment on what the results would be. Given Russ's comments above, the loading of the transformers impact the performance and are constrained above 50?watts.
EDIT - A1 electronics also carries the hammond 185 world series transformers in the 175va rating for $39can, and are located in Toronto -
http://www.a1parts.com/
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I didn't see it posted here...so here is the latest pictures of the Felicia that Paul, Josh, and Larry are working on. It was at the NY Audio Rave gathering on Saturday, 6/25....at Phil's. :D (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=5447)[/list:u](http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=5446)[/list:u]
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Folks:
The other night, Occam and I and several others got together to listen to the Felicia and an Audience Adept Response in a system comprising Innersound speaks and amps, Sony SCD-1 and CAT SL-1 pre. Occam brought the "triple", so we could power source and pre. The results were close, but all preferred the Felicia.
Since then, having dissected a BPT, I added some caps across the output terminals of the Felicia (which powers my modded Grounded Grid pre. Another Felicia powers a modded Teac 700 and CD-Pro2m.): .47 and .1 uf Auricaps, parallel. The difference is large. What I considered very good is now way mo' better. Focus and coherence are greatly improved. Dynamics are better, as are punch and impact. The improvement with this "tweak" was greater than choice of the main cap, bypassing, wiring, ERS, etc.
I've also tried it with no bypass on the main can, just the caps across the output, and the sound was flat, dead and slow. Looks like this is a worthwhile addition to get the utmost out of the Felicia.
Regards,
Larry Welsh
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How hard would it be to add a 12v on/off trigger switch?
TIA
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Folks:
The other night, Occam and I and several others got together to listen to the Felicia and an Audience Adept Response in a system comprising Innersound speaks and amps, Sony SCD-1 and CAT SL-1 pre. Occam brought the "triple", so we could power source and pre. The results were close, but all preferred the Felicia.
Since then, having dissected a BPT, I added some caps across the output terminals of the Felicia (which powers my modded Grounded Grid pre. Another Felicia power ...
Man, I would love to hear a Felicia vs. the Runnings Springs Audio Duke and Haley I am using.
In my system, the RSA gear bested the BPT 3.5 Sig.
Want to come out to the suburbs?
george
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Marbles,
I've no idea how difficult it would be to add a 12v on/off trigger, as I don't know if you want a Felica powered component to be the trigger or to be triggered or a combo of both...... you've got to be more specific.
- Paul
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Zybar - Felicia sure as heck isn't going to power your Mcormack amps. As configured, each is constrained to powering components with less than approx 85 watts power, and I don't know the power consumption of your modded DVP S-7700 or tricked out Tact RCS 2.2x with Aberdeen power supply.
Could you give some specific power consumption information?
- Paul
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Zybar - Felicia sure as heck isn't going to power your Mcormack amps. As configured, each is constrained to powering components with less than approx 85 watts power, and I don't know the power consumption of your modded DVP S-7700 or tricked out Tact RCS 2.2x with Aberdeen power supply.
Could you give some specific power consumption information?
- Paul
Let me check and get back to you.
George
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Marbles,
I've no idea how difficult it would be to add a 12v on/off trigger, as I don't know if you want a Felica powered component to be the trigger or to be triggered or a combo of both...... you've got to be more specific.
- Paul
Paul, see this thread please: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=19978&highlight=
The Felicia would be the receiver and turn on or off depending on the signal from a pre-amp.
It does appear that the Felicia might not be the best power strip for amps....
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Doing a smoke test now...so far so good.
I used the 20ufd 330 vac ASC cap and bypassed it with a Sprague Vitamin Q .47ufd @ 600v. The a smaller Vit Q Cap at .1 @600v and finally a .01 600v Auri Cap...
Its running my AM radio (25 watts)
Ill let it run an hour or so then plug it into A Samsung 841.
Ive got the parts to build 2 more...
The max power out is 85 watts... can I set up two in parallel and get 160 watts???
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The max power out is 85 watts... can I set up two in parallel and get 160 watts???
Yes. but I've no idea as to how well it would work. Personally, I think you'd be better off finding appropriate transformers with higher ratings. To date, I've not found any that meet my performance and cheap SOB criteria. My own needs for powering individual source components are adequately met with the present 2 transformer Felicia. As is, balancing performance is constrained by the fact that the primaries are not bi-filar wound. If you are to start paralleling the primaries, those potential mismatches can only get worse, and the initial experiments by Josh and myself with paralleled windings, prior to series connecting the windings with these specific transformers, alway led to humming transformers.
I don't mean to dissuade you, but want to make it clear that if you pursue this, you're own your own. Nor am I in a position to even opine on the adequacy of larger transformers. Josh and I purchased and experimented with 7 different transformers before settling on the currently recommended Signal A41s.
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Phil:
What Occam said. Congrats on keeping the smoke in.
I'm currently building a quadruple Felicia (ugh- 60 pounds). The Felicia was never intended for amps, although it transformed my lightly modified Teac A-700LP. It cured the switching power supply grunge. It also works a treat on turntables, pre's, CDP's, DAC's.
I tried Vitamin Q's (same values as yours) as bypass caps and found the sound to be dull and flat compared to Auricaps. I'm sure there are better sounding combos of caps, but I haven't found them (yet!). The additional caps across the output legs are very beneficial.
Regards,
Larry Welsh
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I am shocked!
This is simply fantasic!
Starting from the bottom, the bass line:
Tight and controled, no sloppness...very clear and simple. Easy on the ear.
Mid range is the best I've heard in my home brew system. More on that later.
I love the "Tone" the balanced supply has delivered. I'm not a sound stage junkie or one that wants super high rez. I want a preasant tone that wont piss me off and turn off my system. So I've got wonderful tone AND I have rez without its edgeness. PLUS my speakers have simply vanished. Yea, sound stage without the fright.
Upper octaves:
The Vit Q are not as fine as my Hovlands inbetween the trannies. But there is no way I'm gonna place the Hovlands in a power supply. ($$$) I do think the Auris are the way to go as well. So a call to parts Connection on Wed. .47 and .1 mikes will do the job...
My system:
Im a horn guy. Im using the new Fostex 166ESR in the cab designed by Fostex for them...Yumm yum! I like them beter and better every day.
I havent retired the older Fostex 206es...YET.
The spekers are driven by a very tweeked out Darling. BG caps, oil caps James transformers, etc etc etc.... 3/4 watts per side. Big sound little power.
I have at last count about a dozen CD, SACD, DVD players. All work and all have been modded by me. Most have been recapped, reclocked and reboxed. (Sheet metal sucks for Audio) I love maple for most audio work. Plus all players are damped to beat the band.
Sony 777, Sony 333, AW Njoe Tjoeb, CEC belt drive transport, Yes and of course the Tosh 3950 and the Samsung HD841. ART DIO and ACK! DACK. And others
Plus RECORDS!
My preamp, when used is the Bottle head foreplay...yea I've tweeked it to death.
To date, I have never seen such a big change is sound for so very little money and time.
Gentlemen, A very big Thank You.
Onward to big Audio fun.
Phil
Santa fe
P.S. Dynamics in spades
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Tell me more, tell me more!
What values etc.
Have any of you guys tried placing a third transformer into thr mix??
Phil
Santa Fe
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Phil,
So tell us what you really think about Felicia :)
Josh, Larry and I are quite pleased with ourselves. I'm on the verge of becoming a legend in my own mind :roll:
As far as the bypass caps, post transformers (actually, on all bypass caps), Larry really is the goto guy. His only mention is on his post on the previous page (#13) under the nom de plume Tianguis.
We've ordered more Auricaps for further experimentation, and much to our frustration, the .01uf Auricaps are back ordered.
Which of your components were powered by your Felicia upon which you based your comments? I think you'll find, as we have, that effect of Felicias on different components is cummulative.
Which version of that li'll Darling are you running?
http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/darling.html
Other than the 3.5, you might find that Felicia has sufficient moxie to power one. Or if your Darling is using multiple power transformers, you might be able to parcel out duties among multiple Felicias.
Felicitations,
Paul
PS - I sent you a PM regarding your original question about parallel Felicias. Check and click your messages at the top of the page.
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Does anyone have access to Vishay/ERO/Roe MKP1837 caps? I can't source them here in the States in quantities of less than 100s. If someone could buy them from RS (Radio Spares), .1 and .01uf versions, I could reimburse you though Paypal... Please PM me.
As configured, Felicia is running about 15vAC on the betwixt and between caps (the metallized polyprop in oil motor run and their bypass caps). This allows tremendous flexibility in the choice of capacitors as they don't have 120vAC line voltage accross them. I've configured a test bed Felicia with DPDT switches that allows me to compare, on the fly, different caps, and combinations. If anyone would like to lend me some caps for evaluation, I'd be more than happy to do so, and you can PM me.
We can do the same for post transformer bypass caps, switching them on the fly, so that same request extends to those also.
We've found that the best caps for this purpose are not to be X2 rated accross the line caps, and are therefore not guaranteed to fail 'open'. These caps do have 120vAC running through them. Auricaps, even those rated at 600vDC are NOT X rated. As their failure mode may be a short, at minimum, you really must fuse the 'hot' input line of your Felicia. As many household outlets are misswired with hot and neutral reversed, both lines should have fuses/breakers. Otherwise, at best, you'll destroy the input transfomers primary windings, at worst, you'll burn down your house and possilby kill someone.
The assumption is that anyone building the Felicia project is familiar with and competent in standard safety precautions in working with these potentially lethal voltages. I cannot, and am unwilling to attempt to teach these standard procedures on this board. Go to the library. Consult with your electrician or PE. If you are unsure of your competence, DO NOT attempt this project!
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Phil:
Your impressions of what you hear with the Felicia closely parallel what everyone seems to hear. Additionally, the effect is cumulative: more Felicias on more components = more of the same.
I demo'ed an early Felicia at a NYC get-together in May and used it to power a Sophia Baby amp, so it probably has enough steam for your Darlin.
The caps I use on the output tranny at the moment are a .47 and .1 Auricaps. I ran out of .01's, which I will put in when I get them.
Try it on your modded Tosh DVD. I think you'll be impressed. Your system sounds very similar in concept to mine. I'm using Lowther ML Tl's, Transcendent Grounded Grid, CD-Pro2M (both modded and damped), Redpoint/Galibier/Teres hybrid TT and various amps, Tripath at the moment. The Felicia has transformed them all and is the single most significant improvement to my system I've ever experienced.
Regards,
Larry Welsh
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If I dont fall asleep.
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Does anyone have access to Vishay/ERO/Roe MKP1837 caps? I can't source them here in the States in quantities of less than 100s...
dunno if this guy's prices are good, but he has caps - ero & others...
http://search.ebay.com/_Consumer-Electronics_W0QQcatrefZC12QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsacatZ293QQsassZeskimojoeQ5fparts
http://alfparts.com/TJ/PARTS/LIST/CAPS/CF/ERO/ZINDEX.HTML
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZeskimojoeQ5fparts
doug s.
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Doug,
Thanks for the references. I'll give Alf a call
-Paul
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Not sure who was out of stock on the Auricaps but Antique Electronics Supply has them. I ordered up a few sets today and am looking forward to building a Felicia myself.
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Asleep at the wheel...no way...much too exciting.
OK guys here what I done:
I pulled out the 20 mike ASC cap and swapped it for a 20mike Solen film type. Film caps seem faster to me. May be some BG NPs might be fun too? We are talking 20 volts max so a 50volt cap will do the job.
Yep...it is I think better in all respects at least with the bypass caps I'm using. (Vit Q .47ufd, Vit Q .1 mikes and a .01 mike Auricap...
So I listened to The Samsung with all mods and Guidos clock plus Felisha. Into a Stax amp for earspeakes (mods?... Plenty!) with the second Felisha supplying AC happness!
Best I've ever heard...
Gads did I spell Felisha correctly??
Phil Townsend
Santa Fe
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Dang Phil - so many caps, the main betwixt and between, their bypass, and the post output transformer bypasses, and so many wives to annoy...
Unloaded, the series connected secondaries are at about 30vAC, and as we're feeding from the series connected 115v secondaries, were down to 15vAC x 1.414 giving us <22vAC p-p, which seems adequately below that 50v rating of those NP Blackgates. I'd not even considered these, but they should? work. Dunno. Let them break in forever, as BGs seem to need this.
So Felicia is sympatico with your Samsung DVD/CD player and your Stax, tube output? earspeaker amp. But what about your darl'n Darling?
It looks like 2, at minimum, dpdt switches are called for in order to do any reasonable comparisons.
I do have some big honk'n polyprop and film caps and a slew motor run, polyprops. And I really should get some Northcreeks for bypasses to check out as an alternative to the Auris. Anyone got anything they want to lend for evaluation?
C'mon folks - this is an 'open source' project. We've great input from Josh, Larry, PT914, Russ and Phil. I'm sure there are lots more builders out there. We need your input!
ps - thats Felicia, JoshK's long suffering wife's name. Feminine Latin of Felix, meaning "lucky, successful"
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Im not sure what or why You chose Occam for your screen name...
Maybe you simply have renamed your your Gillette?
Phil
Santa Fe
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Occam's Razor.... (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html)
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Those darn BG caps! They take so long to come up to snuff!!! I hate that!
I've started to use the Panasonic FC and FM series.
They burn in quick, sound damn fine and they are dirt cheap. It seems to me they are everybit as good as the BG. MAY BE BETTER. In any event it makes sense to do basic mods with the FC and FM then if you like the results...buy the BGs and do another. In my experience there is very little diff. One would be hard pressed to choose the equipment with the BGs or the FC.
Anyway the BGs are toast soon !
Phil
Sante Fe, former home of "The Pile"
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It is currently being push by a Kedwood KT 7500 (yes it too is modded to death) (kicks the Magnums ass to Texas).
Ill give a listen tonight and see what is what...
The Darling is happy.
I have a question guys...what do you think:
I have a very sweet all silver transformer that I got from Kyle at Reference Audio in Calif. Its a one to one. 120 in 120 out. Its an isolation tranny.
Any ideas about plugging in the Felica into it ? Its 120volt amps and has very fine lams and all silver on both sides.
I have no idea what will happen eletrically.
So, We would have three transformers in the mix.
The silver isolation tranny then a full Felicia.
I hope that this might be a happy combo...Casue the damn silver Tx cost me a f###kin pile of loot.
Thanks guys for your help.
Phil
Santa Fe
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Phil,
You'll have to forgive me, but I've gotta ask -
I assume you've referring to this Audio Consulting CD mains transformer? -
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26&highlight=isolation+transformer
that you got from RAM, on some of the same components you've used to evaluate Felicia. So how do they compare?
Yes, you could use your silver rock transformer to feed a Felicia. But it seems a terrible waste. If that transformer lacks the output center tap, as shown in the referenced url, 57.5 -0- 57.5VAC on the secondary, you could only use it as an isolation transformer to feed a Felicia. Otherwise, with the AudioConsulting transformer at the output, you'd forego the benefits of balancing.
But if your AudioConsulting transformer does have that center tap, give me a call, and we can discuss making a truly bespoke Felicia. I've got some gorgeous r-core isolation transformers that could serve as the input transformer for a truly over the top Felicia.
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Felicia kicks butt. The two transformers with the caps across the secondary is way better.
Yes I got the Silver transformer from Reference Audio.
If you go the link you put up, it is the tranny in the first photo as you scrole down.
Its connections are as follows:
primary 0--115--230
secondary 0--115
The normal way I've used it is to connect 115 volts to the primary using the taps marked 0---115. Then connecting the secondry to the CD player using the only taps left which is 0--115.
This transformer is rated at 120va.
So, if I feed the secondary 115 volts Ill get 115--0--115 at the now so called primary. And I then have a center tap.
Phil
Santa Fe
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Felicia kicks butt. The two transformers with the caps across the secondary is way better.......
So, if I feed the secondary 115 volts Ill get 115--0--115 at the now so called primary. And I then have a center tap.
Many thanks for the praise!
But sadly, you probably couldn't use this AudioConsulting isolation transformer in this configuration to provide balanced 230vAC, 115-0-115, even if you rewired the component to be fed 230vAC. This is because, I believe, your transformer's primary is configured 'old school'. By that, I mean that when configured conventionally for input with 115vAC, it does not parallel two primary windings, but simply feeds half the primary windings, and for 230vac it feeds the whole primary winding. But those windings are not exactly equivalent, with the 0-115 portion wired with thicker wire than the 115-230 portion. You can verify this by measuring the resistance of those respective windings with an ohmmeter. This would cause an imbalance in your balanced output. [I very much like this approach, as a transformer with primaries configured this way is far less likely to hum than one wired in parallel for 115vAC input.] Its just not appropriate for producing balanced power output.
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6Moons has just published a review of the Audience AdeptResponse powerline conditioner -
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audience5/adeptresponse.html
Occasionally, there is a review which describes components that you've also heard in a similar context. The 6Moons Adept review is one of them. It used the BPT conditioner for comparison. I was lucky enough to hear the Adept, the BPT and the Felicia in the at Phil's June Rave/Picnic. While not an ideal, controlled listening environment, it did provide Larry and I the opportunity to hear them in the same context. And dammit, there were aspects where I preferred the Adept and/or BPT over Felicia. But this simply spurred Larry to apply his considerable skills. We later, along with Mark Maloof, got to hear Felicia, again with the Adept on Wes's highly resolving system. And Larry takes these lessons, and continues to improve Felicia.
Here is the just released picture of the innards of the Audience Adept -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4726)
Input to a large Auricap as an 'X' cap accross the line (and that passive partial powerfactor correction), with 2 smaller Auris, 'Y' caps to ground from live and neutral. From there, the Live-Neutral lines branch to individual common mode chokes and then to their individual outlets, each bypassed, L-N, with additional Auricaps. And of course, the obligatory crimp on connecters.
The Felicia project is, and continues to be, a tremendous learning experience for me.
It also tastes good, AND is less filling......
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Maybe this will inspire a solution to filter power for amps, so that the Felicia can grow into a full system solution. Well, for now Felicia continues to mature into a superb solution for sources and preamps (most anyway).
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Maybe this will inspire a solution to filter power for amps, so that the Felicia can grow into a full system solution.
Heck Josh,
I thought I did in the paragraph below the AdeptResponse picture. The first cut is to implement a classic accoss the line cap, AFTER the input fuse/breakers. This allows you use a non X2 rated cap with some assurance of reasonable safety precautions. A 600v Auricap would, no doubt, work a treat. Capapcitive value TBD. The advanage of this is that that single cap is in paralell with all the components fed by that mains circuit, Felicias, poweramps, etc, and whatever its benefits extend to them all.
Y caps are optional, and I personally object to polluting the ground line on 'religious' grounds. But this is largely a matter of conviction, rather than based upon empirical verification.
The second stage would simply add a common mode choke for the line-neutral wires and a following accross the line capacitor for each component not to be Felicia powered. This is what the Audience Adept does. I'd start by trying carbonyl reduced iron mixture #26 or #52 toroid cores for the cmc (the CMCs are under that shrink in the picture).
So how many of my #26 toroid cores, and in what size, would you like to borrow?
FWIW,
Paul
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Four :D , no, two. They wouldn't happen to be one and the same as the chokes you sent for trial post battery supply???
I seem to be losing track of what was moded when! Were the sorta x caps installed by Team JOL before you're lastest listening session at Wes's place?
Thanks...
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Sorry, you likely did and I was just being slow as usual. I just read it quickly though.
How big of a CMC toroid do you need to ensure that the amps...umm...don't get choked? Ok, bad pun, so the core isn't saturated?
I'll be the guinea pig once I get a few things done on my system, so it may be a week or so.
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All:
Getting a look inside the Adept Response was the inspiration for the additional caps I've been using across the output transformer. If you look at the pics, you'll notice that the caps across the receptacles are of differnt sizes (and values). In the Adept Response, they run from 1.0 to .22 uf. I'm sure their reasoning for the different values is to accommodate the needs of different components. How one figures all the combinations and permutations out is beyond me. At any rate, I chose a .47 as it was in the mid-range of their values. The additional bypassing provides added refinement, which they didn't find necessary, probably for financial reasons only. For their additional $10 cost on a $3950 unit that decision flies in the face of reason. I've heard what the output bypass caps do to the Felicia.
On another note, partly due to the make-up of the AAR and Phil's post, I hooked up a couple of 7.5 uf Bennic poly caps in parallel to replace the Aerovox, keeping the same bypass caps. Even though the Bennics are awful caps, which I've given up using, they've elevated the performance of the Felicia: better resolution and clarity, more space and air, better separation of instruments and voices, a sense of greater speed (powering only my Grounded Grid pre). I guess I'll have to spring for some big Auricaps.
Larry
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Four :D , no, two. They wouldn't happen to be one and the same as the chokes you sent for trial post battery supply???
Nope, all together different kind of inductor. You've got to have the proper bag when hunting snarks. When a common mode choke is subjected to balanced power flow, the inductances are cancelled (assuming the cmc is pefectly balanced) and nothing is choked. When subject to common mode noise, the inductances reinforce and 'choke' the offending signal, and to a lesser degree, depending on the core characteristics and winding configuration, does the same for differential noise. This is a major reason that 'accross the line', X, L-N, 'Auricap Tweak', 'betwixt and between' caps, call it what you will.... work so well, they convert differential mode noise to common mode noise, that is dealt with the the transformers in Felicia, and CMCs in the proposed 'Felix'.
Josh - Dunno about proper sizing of a toroid for cmc duties, it depends on the core material and winding configuration. But I will lend you a core of the same mixture that PS audio uses in their UO, but substantially bigger. I'm not about to attempt to wind a cmc, and will look for low cost, readymade product. Its what I do.... :wink: Folks ain't gonna build it if they have to wind it.
and Larry - damn you ears! If you weren't so insistent on improving Felicia, we wouldn't be so confused.
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6Moons has just published a review of the Audience AdeptResponse powerline conditioner -
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audience5/adeptresponse.html
funny, over at the Asylum they'll tear your head off if you mention you're using Auricaps acorss AC lines :roll:
I've had a pair of Auricaps inside all my AC powered components. Probably a much more effective way to accomplish what this box does. $25 for a paif of 0.47uF 600V auricaps and you'll need a lot less power filtering before the component.
Adding two auricaps to my CD transport still remains one of the biggest bang for the buck tweaks I ever installed.
Peter
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funny, over at the Asylum they'll tear your head off if you mention you're using Auricaps acorss AC lines :roll:
No, actually they'll tear your head off if you use an Auricap accross a mains AC line foolishly. And we'll do the very same thing here on the Lab circle. There is no credible reason to wire an Auricap directly accross powered entry prior to the fuse/circuitbreaker(s) so as to not guard aganist the Auricap's possibly failing 'shorted'. Its common sense and compromises nothing.
I've had a pair of Auricaps inside all my AC powered components. Probably a much more effective way to accomplish what this box does. $25 for a paif of 0.47uF 600V auricaps and you'll need a lot less power filtering before the component.
Really? Kewl..... so I'll only need half a Felicia to power each source component? Which half?
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Solen makes a 20 mike film cap...about 6 bucks...
I pulled out the ASC 20ufd and swapped it for the Solen...yep, it works better. Of course it is bypassed with the .47, .1 , and .01 auris.
Next to the output.
I'm still wondering what values to place at the end of the line on the Felicia?
BTW my Kenwood never sounded better AND it pushed a WIDE soundstage and I could place accuratly various voices within the sound stage. The heavely modded Kedwood as Never able to do that.
Thanks to one and all
Phil
Santa Fe
Ditto on the .47 auri in the X2 spots in a cd player.
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Really? Kewl..... so I'll only need half a Felicia to power each source component? Which half?
I don't have a clue what you are talking about. I wasn't talking about your tranformer thing but what you posted on the top of the page. I see no transformers in there, just Auricaps and a few black heat-shrinked components between input and output, and those clearly are too small to be transformers.
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Since we've begun discussing Felicia alternatives for higher current components, I'm pretty impressed with the performance of these Kobiconn power filters from Mouser.
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/622/1409.pdf
I've used the 10 amp CA filters with good success on CRT TVs, RPTVs, tube power amps, and my music server PC. Using one Kobiconn for each component seams to do a good job of providing both filtering and isolation.
Felicia is clearly a superior performer within it's current limitations. But the Kobiconn filter is cost effective solution for feeding those current-hungry components.
One note of caution: When I plugged a Kobiconn into my Equitech, it tripped the circuit breaker on the Equitech. I'm not sure why, but it did. The Kobiconns worked great when plugged into a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet.
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This is very interesting. I have 2 x questions..
Does anyone know of a UK based supplier of suitable signal transformers which could be used in the construction multi-felicias?
What other safety features such as Earth Leakage protection could be built into the balanced power supply?
if the Felicia project is 1/2 as good as the claims it has got to be worth a try.....
Brad
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I have installed slo blo fuses on the primary and the two secondary ponts.
I had installed fast fuses before (regular standard types) The slo blo types have a bit of resistance... ( .8 ohms each) Funny thing is I think the Felicia sounds a tad better!
I'm I on drugs?
Phil
Santa Fe
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Brad, do you have any surplus electronics sites for the UK? I'd check those first, chances are you do. I know Paul helped Christopher check for suitability of local trannies.
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Josh,
I am not sure about the surplus option - I have tried to obtain EI and C core types recently and really strugled. It seems that most of the surplus transformers are recycled for theier raw materials in the UK
Brad
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Brad - I'm unsure what you mean by multi-Felicias....
The least expensive possibly suitable transformer I've found is the Clairtronic @ JPR -
http://www.jprelec.co.uk/
For 10.95GBP each, for a dual 120v primary/ dual 20v secondary 100va they seem like they might be appropriate.
If by multi-Felicias you mean a single transformer feeding multiple output transformers, the following might be appropriate -
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/searchPage2.jsp?Ntk=&comSearch=true&select2=207758¶mSelectCount=5&showImages=true&st=parametricSelection&N=1004683+401&Ntt=&comSearch=true¶mSearch=true&st=parametricSelection&x=24&y=10
and for output -
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=3304644&N=401
These would also be very appropriate for the input transformer for a single, Felicia. But its double the price of the Clairtronic from JPR.
These transformers offer tremendous flexibility to adjust the output voltage over a range, and would address some of the limitations of transformers connected secondary to secondary. I'll address this in a follow up post.
The galvanic isolation provided by Felicia , circumvents the proper operation of any ground fault interrupter that feeds it. For proper operation, a GFI would have to be on the output of a Felicia.
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On the nature of Felicia and transformers in general -
I've just completed a number of measurements on Felicia which consisted of loading her with a number of different resistive loads and measuring the output voltages. Here are the results -
Input Voltage 124vAC
Output voltage vs. Load
No Load - 124vAC
40watts - 112vAC
60watts - 109vAC
100watts - 99vAC
This should not be surprising given that the specific transformers used have a reported 'regulation' of 8%. Transformer regulation is defined as-
R% = 100 x (V@nl - V@rl) / (V@rl)
wher nl is no load, and rl is rated load. Two of these transformers in series would be expected (not even looking at the fact that one is running arse backwards) of about 17%, 100 x [( 1.08 x 1.08 ) - 1]
and what do these results mean?
1. Certain components that shut down at a given low voltage condition may do so depending on its power draw. Russ has commented that a Audio Research preamp did exactly that.
2. Felicia is intended for source components as they tend to run at a constant power draw, in class A. [As her output voltage is load dependent, using slo-blo fuses with higher resistance than quick-blo, could slightly change the operating point of the fed component. This could have a positive, or negative effect depending of the specific component fed.] She also can run some low powered Class A power amps, such as the Baby Sophia and the Darling tube amps.
3. Felicia also powers the Teac tripath amps quite well. Its switching powersupply is self regulating, so it deals quite well with potentially varying (with output demand) line voltages.
So whats a fella to do????
1. Use larger transformers, which, all things being equal, have better voltage regulation. But this sort of defeats the cheap SOB approach.
2. Use transformers with taps that allow small adjustment of voltages that would allow customization of output specific to the load of the component being fed. But these transformers are obviously more expensive than the surplus Signal A41s.
3. Do 2 above, specific for the fed component, by unwinding a few turns from the secondary of the output transformer. With the secondary (used as the primary in the output transformer) at a lower voltage, it would raise the output voltage of Felicia and possibly address the shutdown issue.
Or simply accept the fact that certain components that draw power at the upper range of her intended use simply will not function with Felicia. Russ's friends AR pre is an example, but I'll point out that Felicia played quite well with a CAT SL-1 Signature pre.... It simply depends on the specific component.
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Occam/Paul
thank you for the guidance. I am about to order a number of frame mount transformers to use in a couple of low power AKSA power amps and thought that I would get the transformers for my next project - Felicia, at the same time.
I am looking to build 5 individual units using 12 transformers to power the following pieces of kit:
1)AKSA GK-1R
2)Pioneer DV868 Avi DVD player - label on back states 19watts power
3)Xbox
4)Pioneer PDP R04E plasma control box - label states 38 watts
5)Sky+ satellite reciever - this unit includes a hdd for record and playback. the label says 240 volys @ 1/2 amp, although this is certainly more for safety fuse purposes.
6)Arcam Alpha8SE
I was initially going to order 10 x 200va units with 2 x 50 volt 2ndarys from rs components, and then I saw the price. In the spirit of felicia I really would like to match the transformers to each piece of kit, and keep the cost to a minimum, do you have any ideas?
I thought that maybe i should order 2 x 200va units and build one felicia from which I can run each piece of kit and make my observations/ measurements before going any further. Or should i order transformers with lower voltage secondaries ie 25 volts@75VA and try this first.
The Rs components part numbers are 805-495 (200VA 2 x 50 volt), 805-273 (75VA 2 x 25 volt)
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Brad,
While I appreciate your enthusiasm and desire to build 5 Felicias in one fell swoop, I would urge a more conservative approach. Please order 2 100va transformers, appropriately configured. Build a single Felicia, and make sure they work to your satisfaction prior to committing both monetarily and time wise. We've over 3,000 miles apart, which would make it rather difficult for you to display disappointment by smacking me upside the head......
Firstly, these 2 RS sourced transformers are not appropriate for balancing purposes. Their primaries are a single 230v winding, which would preclude you from grounding the output transformer primary's center tap to provide balanced operation, as these transformer only have a single 230v winding and hence, no center tap. For balanced operation, you need a transformer (at least in the output position) whose primaries are dual 115v windings, configured in series for 230v operation, where you would ground the point where those primaries connect, the center tap. You could use a single primary 230v transformer, with the same secondaries, for the input transformer, but the output transformer must have an available center tap.
RS does stock appropriate transformers; the ones specifically described as -
"Chassis Mount Clamp & Frame Construction 115/230V ac Primary Transformer - 100VA"
This is an error as what is listed is a range of transformers in various VA ratings. Their 231-8397 100va dual 24v secondary transformer would be appropriate, but its cost 15.90GBP each in quantities under 15. Their next size down is 50va and although half the price, I don't think it has adequate iron for the task.
Please consider the Clairtronic transformer I previously referenced in a previous post - http://www.jprelec.co.uk/ and from advanced seach enter '835-175' as the part # search. You'll find a perfectly lovely dual 120v primary, dual 20v secondary 100va split bobbin transformer that should work quite well, actually better than the surplus transformers we're using here in the States, as they'll offer better regulation and not require downrating. And they're only 11GBP as opposed the roughly equivalent 16GBP from RS. If you've issues with JPR you can source them from Rapid for more, or get Dagnall equivalents from Farnell.
Whichever of those transformers you source, you'd just configure them with all windings in series, just like in the Felicia 'sticky' thread -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441
You don't need the X2 cap at the input, and you can use a audio type metalized polyporpolene, Solen (aka SCR,Axon), Audyn, Mundorf, etc... 200v-630v as the betwixt and between cap, as you'd be subjecting them to only 40vAC. I don't know what would be the appropriate value for that cap, but would imagine somewhere between 7-25uf. You'll have to experiment. [Edit - I forgot to mention your locally produced ICW 250v PX series]
This should work quite well on all the components you listed, save for the 'sky+satellite reciever' whose power requirements are questionable, though you might find it works quite well with the 100va rated transformers.
Start small with one Felicia. Make sure it works and optimize. Only then should you consider building multiple units.
FWIW
Regards,
Paul
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Brad,
I have seen Signal transformers almost identical to the ones used in the Felicia sold on ebay in the UK. The price was cheaper than the price available in the USA. I chose not to buy them because I am outside the UK and international postage from the UK is about three times the cost of postage from the USA. But since you are in the UK they would be a great bargain if they are still on ebay.
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Last year before the Tripath craze became the Hypex craze, I built a six channel Tripath amp based on the TK2150 chipset which kicks out about 100 wpc into 8 ohms. It worked, and sounded really good through most of the frequency range. But the highs just never sounded right to me. There was a layer of grain and glare in the sound of the amp that just drove me crazy. I reworked the power supply a couple times, spending way too much money on exotic filtering and bypass caps. I finally gave up and relegated the amp to surround sound and subwoofer duty, which it handled quite well.
Since it has been driving a pair of highly eq’d dipole subs, I recently decided to beef up the power transformer and filter caps, effectively doubling the VA current rating and filter capacitance (thanks again for your help with this Paul). This helped but didn’t fix the sound of the high frequencies.
While inside the amp I spied the little regulated 5V supply that powers the TC2001 digital switcher chip that feeds the TK2150. I had parallel wired the 5V supply to the AC line for the power amp PS. What if I powered that discretely from a Felicia? So I ran a separate ungrounded power cable to the 5V supply and plugged it into the Franken-Felicia.
That made a big difference. The amp is really musical now! I can now hear why others really like the Tripath sound. In addition to low-end authority and midrange resolution and openness, the highs are now clear, clean and extended rather than edgy and gritty. Moving the 5V power plug back and forth between the Felicia and an unfiltered outlet clearly demonstrates that cleaning up the power to the TC2001 chip makes all the difference in the sound of this amp.
Another Felicia success story! :hyper:
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Russ:
Yup, that's one of the reasons I keep pursuing Felicia tweaks. I've been running a modded T-Amp for some time. Recently, I started modding a Teac A-L700P. Out of the box, on raw AC mains, lots of grit on top. The Felicia turned it into a very listenable amp, very similar to my SLA powered T-Amp. I have a way to go before the Teac reaches the performance of the T-Amp, but I know what you've experienced with the Felicia.
Regards,
Larry Welsh
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Russ,
Thanks for the post. You made my day. I laughed so hard that I almost pissed m'self. Its a fabulous idea on your part, but the thought of a 14+lb Felicia powering a 5v supply with a max draw of 180ma (<1 watt) struck me as incredibly funny. But I can't figure out a less costly way of achieving those benefits.
I recently made a foray onto another board and commented on the benefits 'throwing iron' at an ac supply, and was assured the modern regulators would obviate the need for such. 8) Its painful to see the ideal shown as a toroid transformer feeding a bridge and multi ic regulator. Its sorta like those old cartoons where the protagonist would drill a hole in the bottom of the boat to let out the leaking water....
You could use a 6v sla and use a ic or discrete regulator to get your 5v, but you'll need a chrager....
What sort of 5v supply are you using? It is a linear regulator, I assume?
Thanks again. You really did make my day. :D
-Paul
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Holy mother of eecha-cola-chiech! :o
I just flung together a Felicia using older caps in series configuration and if I told you how much it improved things just on my DEQX you wouldn't believe me!
Trouble with my system these days is I changed virtually everything at once. Totally wrong way about it but only practical way I could do all that I needed to do without taking a year to do it. My system the last week has basically been barely listenable as a result. I still needed to work out quite a few elements to settle it in, but it was basically running in current form.
The system that we had initially tested our Felicia experiment is no longer at my home. The system I have now is using my Sony XA777ES as a transport > DEQX (full range, no correction) > UcD 400 (my bass amp), and my newly modded RM40s that have some work to be done to tune them correctly still but are in the ball park. My UcD400 is using the most basic of PSUs in it in order for me to get it up and running and trying things out. However, it is oscillating at high frequencies resulting in a very high pitch but almost inaudible high freq hum coming out my speakers. At first I thought this was the DEQX but I think it is the bridge rectifiers in my UcD 400 needing some bypassing and high freq filtering.
My system was loud and clear for the most part but all the magic was most definitely gone and music wasn't terribly enjoyable to listen to lately. The Felicia made my system listenable only on the DEQX, and in no where near present SOTA form.
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What sort of 5v supply are you using? It is a linear regulator, I assume?
Yup, 9vac toroid, hexfred bridge recitifier, 7805 regulator, electrolytic caps.
I'm just stunned at the change. I went from resenting this amp for taking so much of my time and money and sounding like crap, to really liking it now.
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Paul and Josh,
Thanks to Gordy :D, I had the opportunity to listen to his DIY "Felicia" balanced power conditioner in my system this afternoon. Due to the configuration and his dedicated lines out, we could only hook-up my preamp and SACD/CDP (my turntable and phono preamp were a no go because they lack IEC's).
Anyhow, a real noticeable improvement. Lower noise floor, music was very dynamic, much better spatial placement of images. I am now a beliver and with Gordy's help will be trying to put one of these together if I can get my hands on some transformers later this summer.
Thanks for bringing this very inexpensive power cleaner to the attention of Audio Circle members. It's a real winner IMHO. :dance: :dance:
Now to find a nice box that will fit 6 of those beefy, heavy transformers.
NB
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Thank you for the vinyl fix Roger!
Looks like we have another convert, though you had me worried there for a bit... your total silence was killing me :lol: When you finally uttered, "Well you learn something new every day, I didn't think power conditioning could do so much" it was a huge relief!!! Glad you enjoyed, now if only those backordered transformers would come in... and I could remember to bring the iec adapters :oops:
What I brought over to Roger's was a Felicia two pack using the aerovox caps bypassed with auricaps (.47, .1 and .01). Nothing across the input or output as yet... a Hubble/VHAudio twisted pair power input and captive volex output cords.
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Hi Paul and Felicia-lovers,
I finally found the time to complete the 240V Felicia. Mains cables in & out are hard-wired Chris VenHaus cryo'd Flavor 2, as is all internal cabling. The 50V secondaries are wired in parallel at the moment, and I'll be burning it in for quite a while if I can resist using it in my system!
I'm using a 0.47 Auricap that I had lying around as bypass at the moment, and I have a question before I order the 'real' bypass caps:
To get the best from Felicia, do the three auricaps all have to be the same Voltage rating? (I think I've seen them at 450V, 600V and 1500V ratings)
Cheers,
Ron.
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I do not think it matters.
I have not been able to HEAR any changes as a result of voltage differences.
Also FYI... I placed my 3 Felicias into service right after building them. If they required a burn in period I did not notice. Seemed to work perfectly right out of the box.
Enjoy our tunes
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Thanks Phil,
I didn't know about the Felicia not needing a burn-in, but I do know the CVH mains leads benefit from having one.
Well, my patience ran out after only a few hours, and I used the Felicia to power my CD-PRO2 tonight. After about an hour of listening to a compressed sounding player (and thinking it was due to the lack of 0.1uF and 0.01uF bypass caps) something changed, and in the space of 5 minutes, it sounded completely different. I was suddenly immersed in music. Now I know what people mean when they say that their loudspeakers disappear!
I'm looking forward to listening with an aerovox and a full set of bypass caps!
Cheers,
Ron.
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Ron,
Congratulations on your being the first non-Norte Americano to experience the delights of Felicia! Just a quick note.... obviously, balanced ac is not polarized, but the Auricap does have a relationship to the main cap its bypassing. Larry has found that when bypassing the 14uf Aerovox, the optimal orientation is, with the long axis of the Aerovox vertical and the solder spot oriented to the right, the Auricap should have its red lead on the top and the black on the bottom. With your present main cap, you'll have to experiment, but the optimal should be subjectively obvious.
As you've verified that your Felicia didn't blow up your CD, I'm very curious as to what Felicia will do for your GK-1.
Could you (in your spare time) post some voltage measurements?
What is the input voltage?
What is the output voltage, unloaded?
What is the output voltage when powering your CDPro2?
It would be very helpful to know the output voltages with various load voltages.... powering a 20, 40, 60watt incandescent bulb in a lamp. But please be careful, as lamp sockets (at least in the States) have what it expects to be the neutral connections unprotected as it expects no voltage on this wire, which is not the case for balanced power :o
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Paul
PS - You have a PM.
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Hi Paul,
Here are the voltage measurements for the 240V Felicia:
Input: 248.7V (11:00 PM)
Unloaded: 238.5V
CD-PRO2: 232V
GK-1R: 229V
40W Bulb: 228V
60W Bulb: 221.5V
I'll probably get to listen to the Felicia'd GK-1 tomorrow, although it will be with CD only, as my Turntable motor is currently being repaired in Germany.
Cheers,
Ron.
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Finally got around to ordering my transformers, and they are on backorder.
I guess a bunch of people from Audiocircle are buying these transformers. :roll:
I talked to BG today, and they thought they were going to have some more, but they got the wrong part, so now they are waiting for some guy to remove them from a boards, and send them in to BG.
Randy
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I spoke to Bill G. today as well! He told me he's been prodding his buddy who has the trannies or has access to them, to get moving as he's got plenty of orders for them. In fact Bill told his buddy yesterday that if he doesn't get moving, he'll blow his house up... so he expects to have them in about a month...
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hey gordy, that quote was from ben franklin, & it went more like this:
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security, deserves neither and will lose both. " :wink:
doug s.
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Randy,
Billy at BGMicro contacted me about the transformer situation, and told me he had the same transformers, but were 36v rather than the 30v versions. I told him they were fine and actually might be prefferable. Unfortuneately, he wasn't aware that Felicia required dual 115v primary windings for balanced operation, and I didn't have the foresight to ask....
So Mgalusha bought six of them and sadly discovered they wouldn't work for balanced operation. (very sorry :oops: about that Mike)
Hopefully, BG will have more of the appropriate transformers within a month. I've sent an email to Billy clarifying the requirements.
Regards,
Paul
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Randy,
Billy at BGMicro contacted me about the transformer situation, and told me he had the same transformers, but were 36v rather than the 30v versions. I told him they were fine and actually might be prefferable. Unfortuneately, he wasn't aware that Felicia required dual 115v primary windings for balanced operation, and I didn't have the foresight to ask....
So Mgalusha bought six of them and sadly discovered they wouldn't work for balanced operation. (very sorry :oops: about that Mike)
Hopefully, ...
Thanks for the info.
I am not in a hurry, so I don't mind waiting a month for these. I have enough other projects to work on, and no free time anyway.
Randy
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Not your fault Paul, I'm just hoping Billy G. will take them back. The receipt said money back guarantee, so I'm pretty sure all will be well but it would have been nice to assemble my Felicia today.
Mike
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I've found some nice humidor boxes that will fit two Felicia's if you look for the 75 and up counts. The first link has a relatively inexpensive one going off every 6 hrs. or so, don't bid over the minimum...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6195029067&category=11675
This site has an easy 20 to 30 boxes to choose from, some very nice indeedy!!! $40.00 to $125.00, but inlaid, burl, rosewood etc....
http://stores.ebay.com/Humidor-Auctions_Cigar-Humidors_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfclZ4QQftidZ2QQtZkm
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General Note -
Tianguis and Phil Townsend have been expeimenting with main 'betwixt and between caps'. The current reccomendation [used with the specific Signal Transformer A41], is now a 20uf Solen (Axon, SCR) metalized polypropolene 'fastcaps'. At least for non-silly money, $5-$8. As the secondaries are running at 15 odd vAC, any voltage rating, 250vDC being the lowest common rating, should work fine.
This is a mandatory upgrade, unless one has found (and do please post your findings) a better cap for this purpose.
Please note a major revision (7/26/05) has been done to the 1st post of this thread addressing the above, as well as current bypass reccomendations.
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well, there always seems to be one person in threads like this who just doesn't get, I will suck in my pride and volunteer to be the dummy
I just can't seem to figure out from the pictures or schematics, how to wire up the trannies. (at least to get the meter readings described, I end up with 30v on one leg to ground and like 5v on the other, and 120v across, leaving me totally confused.)
could someone dumb down the wiring instructions, and just describe how the terminals on the trannies are wired. I would really appreciate it, and I sure there would be others that might benefit also.
Really, would like to get these babies up and going, since I have been
waited on the trannies since July 1st and they just arrived yesterday( although delivered to my astonished neighbor down the street)
thanks, in advance.
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well, there always seems to be one person in threads like this who just doesn't get, I will suck in my pride and volunteer to be the dummy
I just can't seem to figure out from the pictures or schematics, how to wire up the trannies. (at least to get the meter readings described, I end up with 30v on one leg to ground and like 5v on the other, and 120v across, leaving me totally confused.)
could someone dumb down the wiring instructions, and just describe how the terminals on the trannies are wired. ...
Please note that this project involves mains voltages and can kill you. Unless you follow accepted safety precautions (and implictly understand them) do not! undertake this project. You must have a meter capable of reading at least 200VAC to implement this project.
New - not a silly or dumb question at all. I think I can help, specifically since I've had the same problem m'self. The trick in anything electronic, is not making mistakes, its learning from mistakes, resolving them, and going on to make completely original, new mistakes.
Here is the wiring diagram of the Signal Transformer used-
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4715)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4716)
DO NOT PLUG THE FELICIA INTO THE WALL OUTLET UNTIL YOU ARE INSTRUCTED TO BELOW!
First, unplug the Felicia from the wall. Next, with your multimeter set to a low resistances reading range (ohms) measure the resistance on the output transformer between terminals 1&2 and then 5&6. They both should measure around 3.5 ohms. If you measure an open (infinite resistance) you've cut a winding when you rewired the transformers from parallel to series. I've done it myself, so call me at the phone # I'll send you in PM). Assuming thats ok, measure between 1&6 which should measure about 7ohms. If the individual winding are ok but not the combined measurement, you forgot to put a jumper between 2&5 to make a series connection. [or between 2or3 and 4or5, assuming you left the existing jumpers on the transformer, when you removed the jumpers from 1to5 and 2to6, which was necessary when rewiring from parallel to series operation] You should also do these measurements on the input transformer to verify correct wiring on the input transformer.
I assume the measurements will be ok as you did measure 120vAC on the output. Which brings me to the most probable source of your problem, which is not connecting the center tap of the output windings of the output transformer to both the ground prong from your wall outlet and the ground wire of your output outlet or cord.
First, make sure that the outlet that you're connecting the Felicia to actually has a working ground. Setting your multimeter to at least 200vAC setting, measure the voltage from the narrow opening on the outlet and the grounding hole on the socket. If that doesn't measure 120vAC+-, see if you have 120vAC between the two slots. If you do, your outlet has reversed hot and neutral. Now check the voltage between the wide slot and the ground hole. If you don't measure 120vAC, you have no ground on your outlet, and you cannot generate balanced power until you have an electrican rewire the outlet properly. You can generate balanced power with hot and neutral reversed if you've a proper ground, but you should have it fixed for safety reasons.
Assuming you've gotten this far, lets try and fix the most probable problem -
Both the input ground from your wall outlet via the input cord/inlet and the and the ground from your cord/outlet ground exiting Felicia must be connected to the ceter tap of the output windings of the output transformer. That center tap is terminal 2 and/or 5 [or 3or4 if you left the links connecting 2-3 and 4-5]. If this ground connection is not made, you've 'isolated' power, which is preferred for hospital use, but doesn't give you balanced power.
With Felicia unplugged from the wall and any component, set your multimeter to ohms. Measure between the ground on the input side (the wall plug on the end of your input cord/iec inlet and the 'center tap' of the output windings of the output transformer. If you don't measure '0' ohms, fix it or call me. Do the same for that center winding tap and the output ground. If not '0', fix it ... or call me.
Assuming everything checks out, and you've fixed any problems, now you can plug Felicia into the wall outlet. Stetting your multimeter to 200Vac+, you should measure on your output about 120vAC between the blades and about 60vAC between either blade and ground. If so, you're good to go, otherwise, CALL ME!
Apologies for the awkward writing. Obviously, I wan't an English major....
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almost had it. had ground on output tranny connected to 3-4, which were disconnected from 2 and 5 ( funny thing was i measured the voltage between 1-2 and 5-6 and got 60 volts )
final question? I was using a grounding bar, to connect all the grounds. it is ok to connect 2 and 5 from the output tran. to the ground bar, then to the ground on the outlet ( or cord ) or should the input grounds be seperate from the output grounds? ( hope thats not a stupid question)
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dnew - taking all the grounds to a central point is an excellent approach, as its a classical 'star ground', or if not a single central point, a small bar.
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This is a very interesting thread and I must try it out. :wink:
Here in Denmark, we have a couple of firms there made a lot of "trannies" and I will order a few to start with.
I am thinking to order a transformer with centertap and 230V in at the primaries and 18V at the secondaries 150-170VA, but how many watts can this transformer get used to?
Is it better to get 24V at the secondaries instead of 18V or doesn`t matter?
We used 230-240V(hot) and a neutral(cold) connections here, but I don`t have ground in my apartment and it`s not unusually here.
Wouldn`t I get the Felicias sound improvement if I just connect the centertap from each Felicias(second transformers) to a star ground instead?
Best Regards from Basil :wink:
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Hello Basil,
Welcome to Audiocilcles.
A couple of point with regards to choosing transformers for Felicia -
1.EI core transformers are prefferable to toroids because of their limited bandwidth.
2. They should be either split bobbin, or have grounded shielding between primary and secondary to limit capacitive coupling of noise.
3. Higher secondary voltages have less losses, but require higher rated capacitors.
4. The optimal capacitance accross the secondaries is dependant on the specific charateristics of the chosen transformers. The 15-20uf specified is specific to the A41 transfomers, available surplus here in the States. Other transformers will require experimentation.
5. The benefits of balanced power requires a real electrical grounding of the center tap -
http://www.equitech.com/articles/articles.html
The power conditioning is still available without the electrical ground (isolated power), which is substantial, but you might derive a proper electrical ground by connecting to a cold water pipe or radiator (assuming they are always filled with water, and they maintain a continuous electrical connection that ultimately goes into the soil. Please note that I'm not familiar with electrical codes outside the US.
I'm leaving for the beach momentarily (its my 30th wedding anniversery :o ) and will be back on Friday to continue the conversation, if you wish.
Regards,
Paul
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Occam :
I'm leaving for the beach momentarily (its my 30th wedding anniversery )
[/list:u]Congrats on making it to 30 years Paul....I wish you and your wife 30 more years of wedded bliss. :beer: [/list:u]And since your at the beach, I've got a tip for you. If your carrying anything electrical...don't go near the water !!!! :wink: :lol: [/list:u]
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Thank you Chris,
Paul has given much of his time and knowledge, it's about time one of us was able to return in kind, just hope he heard ya :lol:
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Basil,
A quick follow up. (I'm posting from the Cape May library as my wife is handbage shopping). If you've primaries on your transformers, i.e. 115-115v, to produce 230vct, no downrating of the transformers is required. The only real constraint is the temperature rise you feel comfortable with. Most transfomers are specified for a 30-40degree temperature rise for the rated power. Actually, I should stop posting as my lunch was lubricatied by 5 (Becks)beers.... :)
Gordy, Chris,
Thanks for the feicitations. She Who Must Be Obeyed really does deserve beatification for thirty+ years of putting up with me. I'm a lucky man..... But obviously, I'd only post this admission if I was pretty snockered.
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Thanks for the welcoming an the answers Occam. :wink:
I have ordered a couple of transformers Prim:230V with centertap and Sek:2x18V and 150VA.
The basic capacitor between will be a SRC 22uF and I will bypassing with Jensen Capacitors, M-Cap Supreme, MIT, ERO and what else I have laying around.
It`s long time since I have english in school, so it could be better...
What does "betwixt" means???
Is it right that some have good result with placing a capacitor at the primaries after the fuse, and also in the other end after the primaries out?
Best Regards Basil
It`s raining, raining, raining here, so many old audio projects are going to be fixed at the moment in my holiday.
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Hi
I'm thinking about buying a DVD player from the U.S. that uses 120 volts only. To use it here (in Australia) I would need to drop the voltage from 240 to 120 volts.
My query is: can I use the Felicia to drop the voltage to 120 volts (by reconfiguring the output transformer's [TR_Out] secondary from series to parallel??) and still have the benefits of balanced power?
Or, would I need a another transformer after the Felicia to drop the voltage? :?
cheers
Tim
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Thanks for the welcoming an the answers Occam. :wink:
It`s long time since I have english in school, so it could be better...
What does "betwixt" means???
Is it right that some have good result with placing a capacitor at the primaries after the fuse, and a ...
Hello Basil,
Your English is great, not to worry! I'm just jumping in as Occam may be a bit getting back to you...
Betwixt is a Jolly Olde English word, usually only used these days in a light hearted or, um... poetic manner. It simply means between...
Yes, the .47 caps can be used in any or all of the three locations. I moved my .47 from the bypass location to the secondary output, leaving the .01 and .1 as bypasses for the main cap... I have not a/b'd the locations though...
HTH's...
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I'm back, relaxed, and a bit more sober.
Basil - Apologies for the "betwixt and between". I find the phrase alliterative and poetic, but 'betwixt' is archaic, and I should realize that English is not the native language of many readers. I'm always impressed by others fluency in English when I realize how few Americans can speak anything other than English.
Yes, placing additional caps accross the line at the output of Felicia can have substantial subjective effect. As Larry (Tianguis) has commented, putting a .47uf Auricap in that position removes a last bit of residual grit, and bypassing that Auricap with successively smaller values provides additional subjective benefits. This is equivalent to placing a cap accross the line on the fed component, which is often referred to as the "Auricap tweak". This is not specific to the Auricap, just more expensive. :?
Similarly, there are benefits to placing caps 'accross the line', but after the input fusing at the input of a Felicia. I'm unsure as to whether those benefits are actually delivered to the comoponent fed by the Felicia, or whether those benefits are to components plugged into the same mains line. As that capacitior is in parallel to other components on the same line, it may be that it is simply a convenient and safe place to put a non X2 rated cap, an 'Auricap tweak' for components not fed by a Felicia, such as poweramps.
TimS - That is an excellent question. Yes, reconfiguring the output transformers output windings would allow you to operated Felicia as a stepdown powerconditioner. But you'd forgoe her balancing capabilities. For a 2 pronged component, I'm unsure if it would be any loss at all. It would depend on whether the 2 pronged component connects its power ground to its signal ground internally and if that ground is ultimately connected to the mains ground via its interconnects. Regardless, the bulk of Felicia's benefits (IMO) are powerconditioning, with that last iota of benefits provided by balancing.
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I was ordering some Solens from PartsExpress and noticed they had started carrying Jantzen metalized polypropolene 400vDC caps from Denmark (using Finnish polypropolene FWIW) spanning .1-100uf. They're about the same price as the 400v Solens.
As a flyer, I ordered a pair of both .47 & .1uf caps to try as bypass of the 20uf Solens. I gave one of each to Tianguis. We've both tried them in the bypass position, replacing our rather expensive combo of a .47, .1 & .01uf Auricaps. IMO they KICK ASS! Different from the Auricaps but subjectively I find them slightly prefferable. And given that the pair are about 10% of the previously preferred Auricap tripplet, they're obviously my 'cheap SOB's' choice.
I'm awaiting more of the Jantzens to try on the output as 'accross the line' caps [as well as some 18uf to try as the main caps], but need to caution all that these are not X2 rated caps and should only be used in that capacity after the output fusing.
As a side note, I've found that the caps used in Felicia subjectively mirror the charateristics of those same caps used in signal coupling capacity and might make excellent signal path (and maybe speaker crossover) caps. Dunno.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=197#capacitors
Try them, you might like them.
PS- Solo, a maker of foil inductors, principally for crossover use is out of business. If you scroll up from the above URL, you'll find that Jantzen (thru PE) offers their own foil inductors.
Here is the Jantzen webpage -
http://www.jantzen-audio.com/
and there is a link to dealers throughout the world.
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I ordered up a bunch of Jantzens for Felicia, my Modula MTMs (speaker cap duties) and I even put them in the PSU of my UcD amps. I also have a bunch of similar Solens and a couple of Auricaps. Will do some testing sometime soon.
I think I need to wire up my 5687 preamp as the outputs use a cap ( =>? dc coupled?). The 5687 is a really transparent tube preamp so it might make an excellent place to listen to the different caps in coupling duties. Thoersten extolls the virtues of a modified 5687 preamp that he does for its ultra transparency.
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... PS- Solo, a maker of foil inductors, principally for crossover use is out of business. If you scroll up from the above URL, you'll find that Jantzen (thru PE) offers their own foil inductors.
...
Yes, Paul, however I think that Alphacore took them over.
At least, if you look at p9 of Michael Percy's web catalogue, he lists "Solo" and "Alphacore" on the same page.
Regards,
Andy
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Well, I finally got all the transformers and the big caps that I need for my balanced power conditioner projects. I still need to get some other goodies, especially the smaller bypass caps.
Here is what I have accumulated so far:
A) ONE Union Denki 2kVA "Noise Zero" isolation transformer. (http://www.uniondk.co.jp/img/photo/MNR-8-kai320.jpg) This is NOT capable of balanced output.
B) THREE Union Denki 4A "Noise Zero" isolation transformers that are basically like the above, except they ARE capable of balanced output (albeit derated to 2A).
C) ONE Union Denki 2KVA isolation transformer with ESS. (http://www.uniondk.co.jp/img/zaikosha/MB-H-10.gif) This IS capable of balanced output (albeit derated to 1kVA).
D) ONE Signal HPI-20 2KVA dual bobbin isolation transformer with ESS. This IS capable of balanced output (albeit derated to 1kVA).
E) ONE BSW-1500 WB isolation transformer with ESS. (http://www.ttfmr.com/wbtrans1e.gif) (http://www.ttfmr.com/trans-e.html)
F) ONE Fuji Electric FFT-DA-1K 1kVA isolation transformer with ESS. (http://www.fujielectric.co.jp/fcs/jpn/product/X/images/X03.gif) This is NOT capable of balanced output.
G) 20 Pieces of Magnetek 10.5uF +/-3% 520VAC run caps.
And I have plenty of power cords that will be entirely adequate.
Here are the implementations I am thinking of trying --
1) 1kVA + 1kVA balanced power for a pair of subwoofer amplifiers:
Input power to A) above, output power from C) and D) above.
2) 2A + 2A + 2A balanced power for audio signal source equipment:
Input power to E) or F) above, output power from B) above.
OPINIONS & IDEAS ARE WELCOME!
QUESTION: I have NO small caps at the moment. I may try to pick up something locally in Akihabara, or perhaps get some Jantzen caps from Parts Express . . . I don't mind have some extras left over when the dust settles on these projects, but what VALUES and what QUANTITIES of small caps should I be looking for? It seems that PE does not offer the really tiny .01 caps . . . if go with Jantzen for .47 and .1, what should I do for .01 caps?
And as long as I'm being lazy and bumming advice, what sorts of fuses and GFCI, etc. should I be looking at?
MANY THANKS!
Christopher Witmer
Tokyo
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Christopher,
Well dang! I opened a recent edition of 'Bartlett's Quotations' and under the entry for "in for a penny, in for a pound", I believe there is a picture of you :o .
And those transformers are truly state of the art and appear ideal for power conditioning. But I've no 'hands on' experience with any of them. (I do have some R-Core transformers and some custom wound EIs that I've commissioned, but yours are absolutely gorgeous)
That being said, you are breaking new ground. Your intent is obviously to run the secondary-to-secondary connections at 100vAC+. Please remember that the whole Felicia project was based on the availability of inexpensive, surplus non-isolation transformers that were jury rigged via their cascading to provide balanced mains power. You and I have no idea what the appropriate 'betwixt and between' capacitor value will be. Yes, I do know how I'd initially approach your project, but I'm not about to write a 30 page missive on this thread. Please, please download (free) Skype -
http://www.skype.com/helloagain.html
and we'll be able to dicusss it mano a mano.....
My intent is to develop a Felix version of Felicia, but have decided to call it the 'Beguine' -
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lake/3483/beguine.html
Sorry for the wretched fidelity, but I've not found an online copy of the versions by Frank, Ella or Artie Shaw.....
With regards to the Jantzen caps -
If PE is problematic for shipment directly to you in Japan, I can tranship them to you. But please note this caveat - I'm presently using them as bypass on the between caps @ 15vAC and obviously had no problems. I've also used them 'accross the line' with a net 125vac accross them and experienced no problems, yet. The 400vdc Solens are nominally rated 250vac, and, by extention (ALLWAYS a bad idea) the same rating Jantzens should be fine. But as I said in a previous post, they're not X2 rated, and you MUST use proper and adequate fusing in the event of a failure in 'short' (as opposed to 'open') mode. This admonition is the same I allways make on the 'Auricap tweak'-
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18443.msg177865#177865&highlight=auricap#177865
I've not even tried a .01uf cap to additionally bypass the present .47 and .1uf Jantzens (.1 is the lowest Jantzen makes), but I subjectively prefer this $1.50 duo to the $20 Auricap tripplet. YMMV
PM me, after you've downloaded and tested your Skype, with your Skype moniker, and I'll send you mine.....
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Thanks a million! BTW everything shown above is either used or "distressed" merchandise; I think I paid about $500 for everything . . . that's still a lot of clams for me, but the list pricing would be a good deal higher.
I'll try Skype next week . . . I have to spend the weekend up to my neck involved with some rush translation work for my company.
All the best,
Christopher Witmer
Tokyo
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I just picked up what looks to be a bifilar wound 2:1 transformer that ought to be okay for balanced power, but I am a bit confused as to how to connect it. The terminals are labeled as follows, left to right:
b a v u V U
Rather than try to explain any more, I think I will just refer you to the images below . . . any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks!
(http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/7969/hitachitr15br.jpg)
(http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/5609/hitachitr22vk.jpg)
(http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/8475/hitachitr38ij.jpg)
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I finally received my backordered transformers from Billy G. Micro today, so if anybody else has been waiting... there's hope!!!
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Good to hear that Gordy, I've been waiting for mine as well.
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I think I have more or less figured out the answer to my question above, but I'd be grateful for confirmation:
Because Japanese transformers, like most everybody's, generally have subtractive polarity, U and V are my primaries (hot = U), and the secondaries are u & v, and a & b, respectively. (Hot = u and a). If I want to use it as a 1:1 transformer, I wire the secondaries in series, and if as a 2:1 transformer, wire the secondaries in parallel. For balanced power I would connect and ground the secondary side cold wires (v and b); summation of the two secondary side hot wires would give me the requisite voltage for balanced power.
And I had better go out and get a multitester to check all the above just in case . . .
Does that sound about right?
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Christopher,
The first part sounds logical but the balanced part doesn't. When you say Summation, do you mean tying them together? If so that would yield only two wires, which can't be balanced, you need 3, i.e. +, - and ground. Maybe I just misunderstood you.
I refrained from commenting to your question earlier because I would just be speculating. Occam should be able to confirm though if you measure the resistance of the primaries to secondaries. (or even better, google search inductors and resistance and see what the relationship is and then compare to your measured resistance. I don't know the relationship, but I know there is one.)
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On the secondary side, v & b tied together are the third (ground) wire, while u & a are the first and second wires. (With the caveat that I'll still need to measure to confirm what is otherwise mere speculation.)
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Ok, I did misunderstand you then. That sounds ok.
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Here are a few pictures of an updated 3 unit Felicia built into a $10.99 box available at A.C. Moore. The unit on the left, facing front, has a .18uF Jansen as the main and is bypassed with a .1 Janzen and a .01 Auricap, the recepticle has .47 and .1 Janzen's. The other 2 units both have .15uF Auricaps bypassed with .1 and .01 Auricaps. The far right recepticle has a .47 Auricap, all others are Janzens. Input fuses are all 1 amp fast blow...
It was completed and installed about a week ago, one day before I received my new speakers so... can't really comment yet on any differences between the units!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2384)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2383)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2382)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2445)
:D
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I like the pic of the anchor on the box; it suggests to me that if you don't like the sound perhaps you intend to heave it into Davy Jones' locker? :D
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Gordy - Very nice job! I especially like the nautical theme :wink:
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Paul, Josh, and All,
Thought it was time to officially say hello. I've been lurking for some time, and hope to assemble my first Felicia here soon... as soon as I can acquire some transformers from BGMicro, that is.
For the benefit of myself and anyone else who is visually-dependent, I'd like to post what I understand to be the current configuration.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=5666)
First, I'd like to confirm what I've discussed with others as to the caps. I have sourced the following:
C1 = 18uF 400VDC Jantzen CrossCap (Parts Express: 027-938)
C2, C5 = 0.47uF 400VDC Jantzen CrossCap (Parts Express: 027-906)
C3, C6 = 0.1uF 400VDC Jantzen CrossCap (Parts Express: 027-900)
Any problems with this list?
Second, I was wondering if someone can comment on the fuses. Assuming I stick with fuses (vs. breakers), I'm assuming F2 and F3 can be 1 Amp fast-blo? What value/type should I use for F1?
Third, I've heard that breakers may yield sonic benefits over the fuses. Is this true? It would be nice not to have to replace fuses...
Fourth, I've been looking for a combined switch/plug receptacle and have been unsuccessful thus far. My plan is to incorporate 4-6 Felicias into one box, with each going to a single receptacle with a dual-pole switch on each receptacle (I don't want to have to unplug each unpowered unit). The closest thing I've been able to find are these white, 2-plug Australian units, which are apparently quite common over there (and have lights on the switches to boot):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=5665)
Has anyone in the USA come across something similar?
Many thanks,
Bryan
-----
EDIT: Made changes suggested by JoshK
EDIT: Made changes suggested by Occam
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Welcome!
The schematic you show is correct, with the exception that you need to tie the output ground to the ground of the recepticles. If you don't do this you are "floating" which isn't wanted in this case (we did compare the impact of floating versus grounded). So all you need to do is make sure you tie the ground of the recepticle to the output ground in a star formation.
The caps you show are correct but you can just as well use a 18uf Jantzen in lieu of the 20uf Solen. It may be preferrable but I don't know if anyone has compared those two. Oh, and I see you repeated the large value after the second secondary (C4) which you don't want. There is no C4 in our config.
Fuse values I am not sure of, 1amp sounds right but I can't recall if it were slo-blo or fast-blo. So I don't remember the F1 either. Someone else will have to chime in on that one. I do like to use breakers but they are not always as easy to find inexpensively as fuses, which is why fuses are often used. Breakers are slo-blo though and reset themselves upon cooling back down. If you want to be extra safe you can install ground fault interrupts too.
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Hi Bryman79,
Excellent first post, welcome again!
The 1a fast blow fuses have handled all the source units I have tried, 3 tube preamps, 2 vintage tuners and a Denon 2900 universal... and a Teac L700P!!! Don't forget to mass load your chassis/box :wink:
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Josh,
Okay, I made the changes you suggested in my initial post. I figured this would be the easiest way so that I don't confuse myself and others down the line with several schematics.
Regarding grounds, both the transformers' center taps and the receptacle grounds get earthed, right?
Any suggestions on sources for switched receptacles?
Thanks again,
Bryan
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Bryman,
Welcome to Audocirles. Its nice to see someone who actually knows how to use Micro-cap. Do you give lessons? I'm incredibly inept with it.
A couple of comments. As Josh says, the ground should be hooked up to the mains ground, which via the ground symbol is obviously your intent. And Gordy's fuse values seem to work quite well for the specific transformer currently recommended. I do wish they'd lay in an adequate supply. :(
The center tap of the input transformer's secondary does not need to be hooked up to ground, as it doesn't serve an electrical purpose. (I suppose one could hook up Y caps between the 2 legs of the secondaries conneciting to ground, but I've not explored that). As the secondaries are running at about 14vac, the 250vdc rating of the Solen is not a concern, but I do prefer, subjectively, the 18uf Jantzen, and I'd try the 22uf Jantzen if PE would ever get them in stock. I actually prefer the Jantzens to Auricaps in these roles, but will comment that adding a .01 600vdc Auricap accross either or both cap banks is a worthwhile improvement. But it does sort of defeat the cheap SOB ideal.
My last point is actually of greater concern. The output fuses should be prior to the the accross the line, output bypass caps. The 400vdc rated Jantzens , I believe should be rated at about 250VAC, but regardless, they are not X2 rated. In the event that these output caps should fail in a shorted mode, the output fuses should blow prior to their bursting into flames. Any capacitor that is not X2 rated and is subject to mains voltages, should (must) be fused. This also applies to the famous (infamous) 'Auricap tweak' as there is absolutely no reason why it should be wired accross an inlet rather that after the fusing.
If you make the changes to your schematic in your gallery, may I 'appropriate' it for the Felicia 'sticky'? It does seem time for an update.
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Paul,
How we lookin' now?
I'm a noob at Micro-cap, but I will see what I can do. Email me as to what changes you'd like to make, and I will see if I can make it look right. Based upon your sticky, you appear to be more adept than I...
Thanks,
Bryan
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Byman - tis looking very fine indeed. Some last niggling comments -
1. extend the 'ground' line to the left of the 'earthing' symbol, terminating where the line and the neutral lines end, to make clearer that the origin of the 'earth' is the mains input
2. In parentheses add '(60 VAC)' at the output by the 'Hot' and similarly add '(antiphase 60 VAC) by the output's 'Neutral'
and with your permission I'll
-add and identify a 'Moderator's Note' to your schematic post, saying that the follow on posts reflect suggested updates to your schematic in that post, so folks can understand what transpired
and I'll also copy your schematic and put it in the sticky thread, with an acknowlegement and reflect the current preferences in components
Many thanks,
Paul
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Bryman - tis looking very fine indeed. Some last niggling comments -
1. extend the 'ground' line to the left of the 'earthing' symbol, terminating where the line and the neutral lines end, to make clearer that the origin of the 'earth' is the mains input
2. Add '(60 VAC)' at the output by the 'Hot' and similarly add '(antiphase 60 VAC)' by the output's 'Neutral'
and with your permission I'll
-add and identify a 'Moderator's Note' to your schematic post, saying that the follow on posts reflect suggested updates to your schematic in that post, so folks can understand what transpired
-and I'll also copy your schematic and put it in the sticky thread, with an acknowlegement and reflect the current preferences in components
[EDIT - The Felicia 'sticky' page has been updated to reflect these changes
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441
and within a few minutes the first posts of this constuctor's thread will also be udated.]
Thanks again,
Paul
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Paul,
Do whatever you wish with the schematic. Don't mind the nagging details... I dish them out regularly, so I should be able to take them. :D
I put a "-" instead of "antiphase" because it fit better, but I can change this if you want. Just let me know.
Regards,
Bryan
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Bryan,
Good job on the schematic and thanks for your help on that. It does clear things up for those who haven't followed along with every update. It reads very clear now!
Josh
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With some of the transformers I'm planning to use (in pairs, a la Felicia), I notice that the electrostatic shield (ESS) is on the secondary side; however, because I will be balancing by means of the dual pair of primary side wires, the ESS ends up being oriented "wrong": it is not on the downstream, equipment side (balanced side) of the rig. Rather, it faces toward the center of the rig.
Is this going to make any difference? Is there a "best" way to use the ESS in this sort of a configuration?
BTW, some of my nicest transformers have a pair of ESS -- one on each side -- so with those it is a moot issue.
Thanks!
Christopher Witmer
Tokyo
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Christopher,
I'm unsure of this, so take it with the required grain of salt. One has to draw the shield on one or the other side of the symbol for the core (unless you draw it on both sides), but in reality, it is merely a symbolic representation of the shield between the primary and secondary. The core in the schematic representation is simply 'in the way', and it may be that by convention, its typically shown on the secondary side. This is somewhat straightforward with regards to a shield in a toroidal or overwound EI core transformer. In the case r-core or m-core transformers, where the primary and secondary are not overwound over each other, the shielding might totally encompass one or the other winding, in which case the shielding would be associated, and drawn with the particular winding(s) it encompasses.
FWIW,
Paul
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I found several units of an interesting transformer available used. It is a variant of the "WB transformer" that I purchased earlier. (http://www.ttfmr.com/trans-e.html) These latest units are 100V, 2kVA input, and 24V x two 42A taps out. (In other words, 84A output total at 24V.) The secondary coils are bifilar wound, so it seems it could do a good job for balancing. Obviously, unless the input voltage is more than doubled, there is no way 24V + 24V output is going to be usable!
Here is my question: is the only way to use this as a balanced xformer to input 208V on the input side and so that both the secondary outputs are boosted to around 50V each? (I'm refering to the situation Japan where 100V is standard.) I am wondering how much I would have to derate the transformer to do this . . . I know resistance increases with the voltage so I think heat might be more of a problem, although these WB transformers are incredibly cool in operation to begin with.
I am also wondering if it might not be possible use a pair of these and have the balancing taking place in the "middle" of the pair: do a balanced wiring of one unit's secondaries and connect that to the secondaries of the other unit. So I would end up with something like the following:
Commercial mains 100V --> (100V : 24+24V balanced) --> (24+24V series : 100V) --> Clean 100V power to equipment.
Is something like that (or a variant) going to work, or is it nuts? If it would work, it seems to me that I could get by without any derating whatsoever, and I could get a low profile, low mechanical noise, low temperature 2kVA balanced power system for cheap. (These trannies are about $35 each used.)
If this latter method won't work, I am sure the method I mentioned first (increasing the input voltage from 100V to 208V) would work fine -- provided I don't overload the transformer. If this is the way to go, how do I know the proper amount to derate the transformer?
Thanks!
Christopher Witmer
Tokyo
P.S. If these trannies work out, I may be able to get my hands on a few with some regularitiy since they were taken out of Japanese pachinko parlors (pachinko is a cross between pinball and slot machine) that were being remodeled, and since pachinko is a more lucrative industry than even Japanese automobile manufacturing (!), vast numbers of pachinko parlors get remodeled with some regularity.
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Christopher,
Please, don't even think about it. Generally, its not dangerous to run transformers at voltages BELOW their specified limits (while staying at the same current specification), but please don't even consider running them at higher voltages than specified, unless you have a death wish. Period.
The more I look at these highly efficient transformers-
http://www.ttfmr.com/trans-e.html
the more I'm unsure of their suitability for any audio related application. While they are very compact and have very low losses, They appear to be overwound, with a tremendous amount of capacitive coupling between primary and secondary, making them unsuitable for power supply applications in audio. The physical spacing between the windings might mittigate this, and if there is interwinding shielding that would allay my concerns, but without detailed specifications (I don't speak or read Japanese), I don't think they should even be considered. I apologize for not picking up on this previously.
Please stop buying transformers. You've bought more than sufficient transformer capacity and quality to accomplish your goals. Get Skype working and contact me.
Concerned,
Paul
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Thanks for the reply. Sorry for causing you worry there. I am aware that I alrready have enough good transformers to keep all the bad stuff out of my audio equipment; these and other recent acquisitions are to satisfy my curiosity about what different types of transformers can do. After I have satisfied my curiosity, I plan to keep what I can use and dispose of the rest.
Part of my initial interest in these "WB transformers" is that they are used inside various high-end audio components. They are used inside Japanese-made CSE balanceformers, which are intended for audio use. The CSE TX-2000, which has a list price of about US$2500, was chosen as 2004 "Product of the Year" by Hong Kong's Hi-Fi Review.
TEAC also uses them in several of its high-end "Esoteric" brand products. They are used inside the Esoteric A-70 monaural power amplifier (list price over US$7000), inside the Esoteric G-Os master clock generator (over US$10,000), inside the Esoteric P-01 and P-03 SACD transports (over US$20,000 and US$10,000 respectively)
There is also a more modestly priced balanceformer on the market, the Musica ibf110 (about US$350), that is based on the WB transformer.
Here is a pic of a pair of WB transformers as used in the Esoteric P-01:
(http://www.ac2.jp/tp/images/p01_8.jpg)
While not every WB transformer is necessarily created equal in terms of quality, I think the above list shows that at the very least, WB transformers are capable of being put to good use in audio applications.
So, on your advice, I have put out of my mind any thought of trying to put 200V into a 100V transformer, regardless of the current.
That leaves the other possibility, of pairing identical transformers so two pairs of 24V secondaries face each other . . . is there any way that the benefits of balancing could be enjoyed by proper wiring of the secondaries as they face each other between two identical transformers?
Thanks for everything. I still can't get Skype running (I'll have to replace my motherboard for telephony) but I may be able to call you over the phone tomorrow if it is not inconvenient for you.
Christopher Witmer
Tokyo
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Hello
I know that it`s sound mad, but I have ordered 10 of the EI-transformer PWR1164 from B.G.Micro., about 2 months ago,
but does anyone know when they got it in stock
and can deliverer it to us, there so badly would like to make balanced power? :wink:
I had tried to email them, about when they will got them in stock, but haven`t got any answer. :oops:
Why it`s mad... Because it`s a lot cheaper for me to order 10 trannies at B.G.Micro, than buy some like these here in Denmark
and I really don`t understand why EI-trannies are so expensive here...
Thanks for the Jantzen capacitors info, I will try them and bypass with some Jensen paper in oil or Rifa PFE 225 polyester caps.
Regards Basil.
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I know that it`s sound mad, but I have ordered 10 of the EI-transformer PWR1164 from B.G.Micro., about 2 months ago,
but does anyone know when they got it in stock
and can deliverer it to us, there so badly would like to make balanced power? :wink:
I had tried to email them, about when they will got them in stock, but haven`t got any answer. :oops:
Basil,
I'm in exactly the same situation. It makes it hard to plan a project when you can't even obtain the main component. But such is life...
To those who have recently obtained their transformers, any word from BG about when he expects more?
Thanks,
Bryan
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Basil, Bryman, et al....
I understand your frustration. Billy and Tammie at BGMicro are as anxious as you to obtain the transformers as you are. That is their bread and butter. But sadly, their source has higher priority, more profitable, orders to fufill. Nor will their source allow BG to send their own staff over to retreive them because of insurance concerns. They don't want any prepayments, and as soon as they're able to obtain the transformers, they will ship them. I'm in touch with BG on a weekly basis, and will update you as soon as I get new information.
I've searched for other sources of other equivalent transformers, have a few leads, and will apprise the board as new info, sources, are available.
Towards that end, I have found a source of very high quality 56va CE certified, split bobbin transformers. These would make excellent non-balanced conditioners, in pairs, for components that don't have grounded powercords, such as dvd players like the Samsung/Toshiba, or cable/satellite settop boxes , etc..... basically, 2 pronged components consuming less than 30-40 watts. For non-North American users, these could provide that same power capabilities, but with fully balanced power for 220-240VAC consuming units. These would be less expensive than the presently unobtainium 175va Signal transformers.
I've put BGMicro in touch with the wholesaler who has 400+ of these units. I have no, nor want any financial interest in this, and simply wish to facilitate the availability of appropriate components.
I am also in contact with another vendor who may have appropriate transformers, substantially more expensive than the 2 discussed above, but have to obtain units for evaluation.
Believe me, I too am frustrated over the difficulty in obtaining appropriate transformers for Felicia.
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.....So, on your advice, I have put out of my mind any thought of trying to put 200V into a 100V transformer, regardless of the current.
That leaves the other possibility, of pairing identical transformers so two pairs of 24V secondaries face each other . . . is there any way that the benefits of balancing could be enjoyed by proper wiring of the secondaries as they face each other between two identical transformers?...
Chris - You're killing me dude. The only feasable approach is to take 2 transformers, hooking up the primaries in parallel, and wiring the 4 24v secondaries as as center-tapped 96v. As each transformer's secondary is wound bifilar, this means if you take one secondary from transformer A, and one from transformer B, in series, and make the other seconday from the leftovers, we have, by definition, an accurately balanced 96Vac supply. You've now got a 4KVA balanced transformer. Assuming its lightly loaded at 1KVA, the transformer's regulation,say 3%, will bring it up to 98Vac+. Close enough for government and audio work.
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Occam,
+ everyone elso who has given advice in the last couple of months.
I am getting near the end of my project to build 1 x AKSA GK 1R and four AKSA power amps, and have just tried out the basic Felicia balanced power supply on my Arcam @8 Cd player and my Pioneer DVI868 DVD Player ----wow!
I have use 2 x dual 120v primary/ dual 20v secondary 100va transformers from www.jprelec.co.uk/aps as sugested by Occam with just a single 630 volt audio grade polypropylene cap at 3.3uf between.
This is such a simple thing to rig up, not much more to it than wiring a couple of plugs, but what a difference!.
The only negative observation was a high frequency hum that was produced by one of the transformers when running the Pioneer DVD player – this is a high end unit and I suspect has a high power consumption.
As soon as I finish the AKSAs I intend to build 5-6 Felicias into a 3U rack mount case to run my Orion x-over PS, Arcam Cd player, Satellite receiver, Pioneer DVd player, Pioneer plasma media centre and GK 1R.
I will post voltage drop measurements ect. for each device if this would be useful information for other builders – just let me know
I really feel like this is a bit of a cheat because this involves so little time and there does seem to be a significant immediate improvement. I will definitely not be happy to leave things like this and will have to play around with additional filter caps on both the low voltage section and on the output, just to satisfy my curiosity and my no pain no gain mind set! This is just too easy. Does anyone have any suggestions on initial cap values, configurations ect that I should consider.
Brad
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Brad,
This is most gratifying news. Congratulations and thanks for sharing your experience with the Board.
A couple of comments -
1. I don't think you've yet found the optimal 'betwixt and between' value(s) for those capacitors accross the seondary. From my experiments with a similar 100VA transformer with 36v secondaries (similar to your 40v secondaries), I'd think you'll ultimately end up with 12-20uf in capacitance between those secondaries. You've tremendous flexibility in choosing what caps you use in that low voltage environment. The MKP1837 caps from RS, in .1 & .01uf might make excellent bypass caps. You can get my favorite Jantzens (up to 50uf) in Europe. And you do have easier access of various European industrial metallized polyprop caps like the Arcotronics, Wima and EvoxRifa. The Rifa PHE 450 are available in many values and voltage ratings.
2. While I strongly believe that accross the line caps at the output of Felicia offer substantial, additional benefits, the output voltage of 200VAC+ does raise safety concerns. You do have various high quality 'X' rated caps available, such as the Evox MP3 and Wima PME271 metallied paper (best in 15mm and less lead spacing) which are rated for accross the line use at your line voltages. Similarly, RS and Farnell cary other X rated, and non-X rated caps that have sufficient AC voltage ratings, like the Rifa PHE850 and Arcotronics R76. But please, any non-X rated caps used accross full mains voltages MUST have those fuses on both output lines preceeding the caps as shown in the Felicia 'sticky'. I've mentioned these specific caps that I'm familiar with, but that list is by no means exhaustive.
I'd like to ask you to do some measurements if you would be amenable. Would you measure the input voltage to Felicia as well as the output voltage for a few loads? Specifically, with your version powering a 15, 30 & 50watt light bulb in a lamp. Please be careful as (at least in the States), the normally unpowered and exposed 'neutral' of a lamp socket is energized when powered by balanced power. The specifics of the bulbs, ie the specific voltage (220,230,240VAC) and wattage will allow me to calculate the actual power, adjusting for the measured output voltage. Also, it would be helpful if you would do the same for your CDP, DVD, and other source components. I'd think your DVD player is a rather low draw component, and the hum might require preloading, or we might find that reconfigured caps might help.....
This will allow us to get a better handle on the 'regulation' (voltage sag) under load, and might allow us to configure a more useable Felicia for your environment and needs. Specifically, Farnell carries a 230VAC single primary/ dual 20vac secondary, 100va transformer for <12Lbs that when feeding the Clairtronic from JPR might boost the output voltage by around 5%.
Given the high costs and lack of surplus transformers in Europe, I'd really like to explore the use of the JPR, and possibly the Farnell sourced transformers for European use. This is the reason behind my PITA 'homework' assignment.
Congratulations, and thanks in advance,
Paul
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Paul,
I have just tried using the Felica to run my Arcam CD player and the power supply for the Orion active x over at the same time and was blown away with the improvement, I mean the system sounded great already, but the bass notes felt as well defined as every treble note, even at low levels which is something that the Orions are not normally that good with. I tried the Felicia out on the Pioneer DVD player and noticed a change but this seemed to make the music more clinical – I have not decided if I am going to use this player for music anyway as it has always been a little lightweight in the bass department. I will probably try out the Phillips CD-PRO2M once I finish the AKSAs and Felicias.
Here are the results from 1 Felicia with a 3.3uf Polypropylene 630v cap b+b using the 100VA Clairtronic JPR transformers
GK 1R V IN 227 V OUT 209
Arcam @8SE V IN 227 V OUT 211
Pioneer media box V IN 226 V OUT 207
Pioneer DVD 868avi V IN 228 V OUT 217
Sky+ satellite box V IN 227 V OUT 214
Orion power supply V IN 229 V OUT218
60 Watt light bulb V IN 231 V OUT 200
43 Watt light bulb V IN 227 V OUT 204
I hope this helps, FYI there was some fluctuation of the mains voltage while I carried out this test, the figures given are an average taken over a number of readings.
Brad
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I spotted a A41 series Signal transformer while browsing the C & H Sales Co. catalog. It is listed as a Signal A41-80-1487, primary = 120/240, dual 12 vac secondaries @ 3.3 amps each. $10.00 ea. 5 for $40.00. Stock #TR2050
http://www.aaaim.com/u/web/aaaimc/cgi-local/shop991/shop.pl/SID=31676744/page=TRFS.htm#TR2050
http://www.aaaim.com/CandH/index.htm
They don't have quite the current rating as the specified transformer, but still might work for CD players, ect.
Occam, what do you think?
George
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Brad,
I'm quite chuffed that your finding Felicia to be a positive addition to your system. I think you'll find that additional 'betwixt and between', output, and bypass capacitance will provide substantial, additional improvements.
So here is what I did with your measurements -
Assuming those lightbulbs are rated for their wattage at 230VAC, I used the following formula to make some calculations.
P = V^2 / R
So we can calculate the nominal resistance under load of the 60Watt lamp as 882ohms, and that nominal resistance of 1230ohms for the 43watt bulb.
Using the same formula but with the now known resistances [and yes, that resistance will be lower with less that 230vac, but we're simply doing a first order correction], and the actual measured, driving voltages, we have the 60watt bulb consuming 45watts, and the 43watt bulb consuming 34watts. This ties in nicely with a linear extapolation to the GK1-R voltage droop, as I've measured my own Swift with a power meter at about 20watts. A measurement with a 10-30watt bulb would confirm the calculations, but I've imposed enough.
So what conclusions can we draw from the data? This, and my own measurements Stateside with different transformers leads to the conclusion that the Felicia topology just dang droops too much. This is a result of the inherent 'transformer regulation' and the fact that we're using 2 transformers which exacerbates the voltage sag under load. This manifests itself by certain components [with low voltage monitoring] simply shutting down and not functioning powered by Felicia. None of my own components do this, but this has been reported with Audio Research preamps.
While this doesn't appear to be a problem with your own components, for general use I'd suggest using this transfomer from Farnell as the input transformer, Order Code: 696821 -
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=696821&N=401
Its 25 odd pence more than the Clairtronic from JPR.
This has a single 230V primary winding and dual 20V secondaries. For input you don't need the split primaries. I assume you've wired the secondaries in series for 40v. If you've wired them in parallel, just rewire in series as this will minimize losses. When you use your Clairtronic transformer from JPR for output, its 40v series connected secondaries will produce about 10VAC higher output when exiting their center tapped 120-0-120VAC primary. This should make the EU version of Felicia a bit more flexible. This is assuming that the specification of the transformers are vaguely accurate......
With respect to your Euro-Felicia humming when powering your low draw DVD player, you might find that preloading its Felicia with a 10watt resistor, of appoximately 200-300ohms accross the secondary in parallel with the 'betwixt and between' cap(s) will minimize the hum and improve performance. Certainly, as you've found, running more than one component from a single Felicia will accomplish much the same, but that does not provide isolation between those components which is especially beneficial if those components have a switching supply.
On to capacitors-
The Jantzen-audio.com website that I previous found European distributors through, appears to be MIA. I believe you'll benefit from substantially more [12-20uf, paralleling caps is fine] than your present 3.3uf accross the secondaries. Solens (aka SCR,Axon) work well, though not, IMO, as well as the Jantzens. I've not tried Mundorfs, Audyns, or other audiophile bespoke caps, as I'm a cheap SOB. I'd try the various European produced metallized polypropolene availabe from RS that I mentioned in my previous post. The 40vac on your secondaries give you some flexibility in choice of main and bypass caps. But at your 230vac mains voltage, you must use adequately voltage rated caps, and if they are not specifically X rated, you MUST fuse both output lines prior to the output caps in the event that those caps might fail 'shorted'.
Once you've optimized your cap values, we could consider a group purchase of Jantzen and possibly Auricap capacitors for shipment to some brave soul in Europe for further distribution.
Please keep us updated on your progress.
Regards,
Paul
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George,
Good spot! As far as these 80 watt transformers, dunno. Given how we wire them for Stateside use, 40watts would be their maximum, and probably substantially less for optimal use. But they might be pefectly adequate for dvd players, satellite/cable boxes, etc.... But smaller transformers of the same series inherently have greater voltage sag than their larger bretheren, but that might not be a problem for components with switching supplies.
The derating could be substatially less if we give up the balancing feature and wire the primaries in parallel. But I'm still unsure if that balancing facility isn't still a major benefit even for components with 2 pronged plugs.
Sorry for non definitive answer, but I simply don't know. Obviously, you could simply try it. I'd initially use the same values of capacitors, as the differences are more of wire and core size, rather than measured parameters.
FWIW,
Paul
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Paul,
Thank you for the input!
I will use the alternative transformers from Farnell to supply the JPL balancing output transformers. Is there any merit in using either 1) a primary transformer with 2 x 24 volt 2ndaries, which would provide about a 1.2 boost to the supply voltage to the JPLs 2 x 20 volt (I know that we would not normally want to place excess loading on circuits designed for 20 volts, but this may be compensated for by the voltage sag) or 2) use a toroid with 2 x 22 or 2 x 21 volt secondaries as the primary transformer (cheap SOB needs satisfied at the expense of a little less hf attenuation, until the AC reaches capacitors.
I have had a quick look around for Poly caps of around 10uf and up and have found the 10uf caps from Rs part no 365-7520 at a healthy 8 quid + VAT a pop, healthy for them, not me!,or Maplins do a similar Polypropylene 10uf cap at £8 inc VAT. I am thinking that if I am going to use the Farnell transformers I will probably find it easier to order the caps from them at the same time, they even appear to stock poly caps up to 47uf – with a free baked bean tin included. The only thing about the Farnell poly caps is that they do seem a bit industrial, but the 20uf is less that a tener, and not that big to cause a concern, given the cost saving.
Any ideas or thoughts on this.
Brad
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Two thoughts:
1) Within the same family of transformers, the smaller they get, the worse the regulation is going to be. So voltage droop with the smaller A41 transformers would be worse than with the larger A41 transformers. The solution is, as Paul pointed out, to "mismatch" voltages between the two transformers used in the pair in order to compensate. Or, if you have a cheap step-up/step-down transformer (I suppose even an autoformer would work) you might use that to compensate as well. Here in Japan, where 100V is standard, there are many transformes that give a 10%-15% boost so USA equipment can be used with the local electricity.
2) The cost of shipping from the USA to overseas is often cheap enough that folks in Europe might be better off getting Jantzen caps from Parts Express than buying more expensive caps locally.
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Hi Brad and Paul,
I've been making some changes recently on my 240V - 50V parallel secondary Felicia:
1. Adding 0.47, 0.1 and 0.01uF Auricaps as bypass groups on the 'Betwixt and Between' cap and across the output. A definite improvement in both cases! - Brad, I recommend you try this.
2. Trying 12, 15 and 18uF 630V Solen Fastcaps in the 'Betwixt and Between' position, the 12uF sounding best, followed by the 15uF, then the 18uF. Paul, is there any case for going lower than 12uF - 9-10 perhaps?
All testing was conducted powering a CD-PRO2M CDP (with Tent clock) and an Aksa GK-1R. Powering the two individually, Felicia's charms seem to improve the CD Player much more than they do the GK-1. Could this be due to the CDP's use of Torroids, as opposed to the GK-1's use of well-designed conventional trafos?
Cheers,
Ron.
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Brad,
[edit - I mispoke. I've actually looked up the RS cap you mentioned, and its not a motor run cap as I assumed, but rather an Amp-Ohm FP-CA audio specific cap, that by a second hand report is quite good -
http://home.hetnet.nl/~brian.gee/Cap.html
I'm not familiar with these. They may well turn out to be excellent for this application]
I believe the larger polypropolene from RS that you're referring to are motor run caps. Larry, Phil and others have done extensive experiments with various motor run caps (including the Arcotronics and Ducatti available to you) and have found that lower priced Solen/Scr low end audiophile caps consistently provide higher subjective performance in this particular application. SCR caps are available in GB from Wimslow -
https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_Capacitors_45.html
Other metallized polypropolene caps for audio use are the Audyns -
http://www.audiocom-uk.com/store/prodtype.asp?PT_ID=134&strPageHistory=cat
and Mundorfs, which I don't know a GB source for.
Also possible are the Amp-Ohms available through RS and the Ansar caps from Cricklewood -
http://www.cricklewoodelectronics.com/Cricklewood/customer/home.php?cat=155
Other than the SCR/Solen caps, I've no personal experience with these caps. My personal preference are the Jantzen caps. The website appears non-functioning-
http://www.jantzen-audio.com/
and I can't access their distributor list. The only EU source I've found is -
http://www.jssystem.it/IT/Prodotti/JS/Accessori/Accessori.htm
and their prices seem to be in line, unfortuneately, with my subjective opinion. Perhaps if you settle on values with locally sourced caps, I can send a care package of Jantzens sourced at far lower prices from PartsExpress -
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=197#capacitors
I'm using Jantzen .47 and .1uf caps for bypassing for the 'B&B' position and the mains output position, but their use for your specific mains voltage, would be questionable. Both the SCR and Audyn caps specify their 630vdc caps at 400vac and their 400vdc caps at 250vac, but Jantzen, to my knowledge, does not provide an AC rating for their 400vdc caps.
As to using toroids for the input transformer role, I don't think the sacrafice in hf coupling attenuation is worth it, nor do I know of lower cost toriods availablity in GB. But I've not tried it, so I certainly can't speak to it definitively. When considering secondary voltage 'adjustments', as Christopher mentioned, you must also consider the primary winding's specified voltage. The maths aren't complicated, just a pain..... The suggested Farnell transformer would provide the voltage boost via its lower primary voltage, 230VAC. Using 24vac secondaries to feed the 20VAC secondaries of the JPR Clairtronic output transformer would provide a roughly 20% output voltage increase, and while it might well address the voltage sag issue, you might now run afoul of overvoltage conditions. As the present JPR to JPR transformers are working for your components, I wouldn't press your luck with 24v secondaries, as the Farnell's would seem to address the issue without incurring the wrath of overvoltages.
As to your specific ideal 'B&B' cap values, dunno, you're beaking new ground and you'll have to experiment.
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Ron,
Certainly, as the lowest value of the SCR/Solens seems to be the best, trying lower values should be investigated. Rather than purchasing additional caps, you can just wire the 12 and 18uf caps in series (maintianing the orientation of the writing on the caps) which would yeild approximately 8uf. Caps in parallel are additive while n caps in series are -
Ct = 1 / [ 1/C1 + 1/C2 +... 1/Cn ] and for two caps this simplifies to
Ct = (C1 x C2) / (C1 + C2)
and if you've an ample supply of caps you can use a combination of series and parallel caps to experiment with a range of net values, assuming the caps are of roughly equialent 'qualities'.
Also, as the caps you're using seem to have high voltage ratings, you might consider wiring the secondaries in series, rather than parallel, giving 100vac as the intermediate voltage. This will minimize losses, but might lead to very different optimal capacitance. I think???, this might call for lower capacitances, which would allow for less (lower cost) capacitance, while providing equivalent filtering efficacy.
Your experience with Hugh's GK-1 seem to be the same as my own. As I noted in this thread -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=19198&start=20
I noted that while the GK-1 benefited substantially from Felicia, those improvements were not as significant when compared to those when Felicia powered another very well thought of preamp, the Modwright 9.0 SE. I believe this is, as you surmised, due to Hugh's choice of expensive, custom, shielded dual EI core transformers, which inherently pass far less high frequency mains borne crap than the Modwright's toroid.
The benefits of Felicia are twofold -
Balanced power, which minimizes leakage noise and hum.
and
Power conditioning, which minimizes problems of mains noise and harmonics.
Hugh's choice of powertransformers does somewhat minimize the benefits of later, but still provides whatever benefits for the former.
I'll also extend the same offer to you that I've offered Brad. Once you've settled on 'optimal' capacitor values, I can ship you Jantzen caps to try and compare, if you're interested.
Regards,
Paul
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I will let tiangius speak to the configuration that I have, but I can say that I am really happy with the improvements driven by the Felicia in my system.
I am using it on the JVC EX-A1 that I have, that IS my system, running b200 Visatons in an open baffle arrangement. I have a large ported sub that I turn on for bass intensive music, but for regular 2 channel listening, the little system with the Visatons does the trick.
I am finding a dramatic increase in smoothness, and air - a sense of naturalness that is hard to describe - to the point where it almost needs another volume notch to fill the room the same way, but it does so realistically.
Thanks for sharings this stuff guys!
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Hey Mark,
I was sort of hoping for a more detailed description of Felicia's effect on your JVC (after I figured out exactly what the JVC EX-A1 was) with a bit more detail than smoother and more lifelike..... But after reading some of my own subjective comments on various components, I realized that my own positive comments are usually 'mo betta'.
I guess its hard to articulate the benefits of better power (whether Felicia, batteries, or other powerconditioners/balancers.....), as one might not be aware of how badly your ps/mains may be mucking up your sound until you actually hear what Felicia, etc... does for your system. IMO, that smoothness and natualness is not at the expense of real detail, but rather at the expense of hardness and artificial additions that I'd mistaken for detail.
I too am a great fan of dipoles. My own speakers, Alons, have provided me (midrange) dipole benefits for the last 15years.
I'm looking forward to Tianguis's (Larry's) discussion when he recovers from the RMAF. He has been the consitent lead in optimizing the component complement of Felicia. As a techno-nerd, I'm quite flummoxed over the tremendous subjective impact the capacitor choices have yeilded.
Very pleased you are pleased,
Paul
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Paul, I can understand that it would be great if I could expand a little on what I am hearing.
Here is an anecdote that I posted down in Vinnie's circle, on the long thread about the OB Visatons. Basically a non-audiophile came over to my house, and heard the system, quick A/B with the power conditioner - "I cannot believe how clear and lifelike that is" is the statement that came out over and over again.
It is important to mine that statement a little - the clarity he speaks of, is an inherent part of the Visaton sound, but in this case, it was in response to hearing the system without the conditioner, and then after - so that lifelike increase in sound, coupled with a smooth, natural level of detail, is what seems to happen when I plug the Felicia into the signal path.
The little JVC "executive" unit, uses the same amp technology as their F-10 and ES-1 receivers - some form of analog and digital amplification.
Tough to really put it all into words - it just seems way more real, and preserves the strengths of the system. Also evident is a reduction in listener fatigue - I sat in the basement for 3 hours Friday evening, reading and listening - it has been quite some time since I have done that.
So, subjectively, it is a great experience, that I am at a loss to describe, other than to say that it is obvious to all who hear it, it is a betterment of the enjoyment of the system, and THANKS!
I know that Larry will chip in with some comments, he shared some thoughts on that unit, when he tested it at his place. I recall that he will be suggesting the captive Volex cord is a useful tip for folks building up their own.
It is also interesting to note that this is already on a dedicated 20A circuit, so I would have thougth that the power was already decent...
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Apex junior has a transformer that might work, link here
http://apexjr.com/miscellaneous.html
It is the signal BL1752 for $8
Primary 230V Secondary 48VCT 7A & 28VCT 3A
or Primary 115V Secondary 24VCT & 14VCT
I searched, and found a couple posts on it at diyaudio, one said it is a EI transformer, and the other said it weighs 9 lbs.
What do you guys think?
Apex is local to me. Busy this week, but I could run by and pick up a couple next week. Of course, my project backlog is kind of long now, building a cornet and rebuilding a ST70.
Randy
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Randy,
Thanks, but sadly these aren't appropriate, as the output winding (typically, the primary with the output transformer that we use) must be center tapped, or be comprised of dual windings and have a total voltage rating of 115-120v (for N.A. use, elsewhere we need 220-240) or above.
[and I've already talked to Steve about the dual 41v secondary transformers, but they are neither sheilded or split bobbins]
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I have found local supplies of CDE (Western Electric) and ERO film & foil capacitors in the 400V-600V range that look interesting . . . they would be a good deal cheaper for me to acquire than, say, Auricaps. Anyone have any experience with these?
I also notice that Audio Note (U.K.) has some tin foil caps that seem to be priced somewhat similarly to the Auricaps. By that, I mean their single-unit prices are not that different. Audio Note does not list a discount pricing schedule on their website so I don't know if their prices go down as quantity goes up as is the case with Auricaps.
http://www.audionote.co.uk/kits/an_capacitors_paper_in_oil.htm
Any comments would be appreciated!
Christopher Witmer
Tokyo
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Transformers - Signal Transformer 175va dual bobbin transformer
http://www.bgmicro.com/prodinfo.asp?sid=078189814814814869201136182&prodid=P ...
These guys seem to have been out of stock for some time. Anybody know of any alternative sources?
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Christopher - Sorry for the delay. Film and foil caps are generally perferred over metalized caps. My only caution is that they lack the 'self healing' characteristics of metallized film caps. I don't see any real reason not to use them as long as you use the fuses as 'mandated' in the schematics and their AC voltage ratings are appropriate.
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Folks,
I've just talked to the folks at Marlin P. Jones, and I believe these transformers may be appropriate -
http://www.mpja.com/directview.asp?product=7846+TR
They're $18 each.
I've not used them, but according to MPJA they do have dual winding primaries which are required. These are PRC sourced so I wouldn't think they have the consistency of the Signal A41 transformers. Therefore, I'd suggest you measure the seconday voltage, unloaded under power and use the one with higher secondary voltage as the input transformer. The secondaries are center tapped, so you'd simply leave its black? centertap wire unconnected but insulated.
FWIW
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Hopes its OK to do a short hijack since you guys suckered me in and I read the entire thread. Great work, by the way. The posts regarding loaded voltage and droop got me curious about my own setup, so out came the DMM. I thought that I was running a simple isolation transformer through JR recipe filters. The Iso Tx is a Stancor GIS-500, input 115v 50/60Hz, output 115v, 500VA, 4.35 amps feeding one JR filter that powers a Bottlehead Foreplay & a Bottlehead Paramour while the Iso Tx also feeds another JR filter that powers the other Bottlehead Paramour and a Tosh 3960. My mains run 124v at the wall and 130v after the ISO Tx. But here is the kicker, I got the 130v measurement from hot to neutral, then I measured from hot to ground and to my surprise found 65v. Of cource I measured from neutral to ground and found the other 65v. Wasted a lot of time searching for data regarding the GIS-500 Iso Tx but found nothing that would clue me in as to how it is wound. I wouldn't think that your garden variety isolation transformer would produce balance power unless it was advertised to do so, since there is a possibility of old gear with neutral-to-chassis connections. I said before that I had read the entire thread, but that doesn't mean that I understand all of this stuff. Is it possible that this transformer can be user-wired for either 0-120 or 60-60, or is there a problem with the transformer that I should be aware of. It has been happily powering this complement of equipment for about a year, never humming, buzzing or getting excessively warm. Any thoughts would be welcomed.
John
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Cantskienuf,
Your transformer is working as it should, but sadly its not producing balanced (technical) power, but rather isolated power. 'Isolated' in this case has a specific meaning that it is not balanced, having a center tap tied to ground, nor is it configured as a typical isolation transformer, with one of the ends of the secondary winding tied to neutral. Rather, it is configured as what is typically used in a hospital environment, with a floating output, with no reference to ground whatsoever. This 'isolated' output is used in hospital environments as it greatly minimizes the leathality of potential shocks. I find this puzzling as the GIS-500 is not listed as a medical device, and by code (FWIW), non medical isolation transformers are supposed to re-bond the nominal neutral to ground at the transformer's output. It is not unusual that under minimal load you'd get those voltage readings. And if your taking those readings at the output of JonRisch powerconditioner, the Y capacitors in it (from 'hot' to ground, and from 'neutral' to ground) are functioning as a resistive divider with the centerpoint tied to ground. But while this will produce a balanced reading under your measurement conditions, it does not establish true balanced, technical, power, in that is does not provide a canceliation of chassis leakage currents.
The above was simply a verbose way of saying, yes, your measurements are perfectly reasonable, but no, this is not true balanced power providing the specific benefits of technical power mentioned above.
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A possible topological enhancement to the Felica
aka
Going all differential upside Felicia's head
Felicia has never had 'Y' [from the power wires 'to-ground', usually from 'line-to-ground' and 'neutral-to-ground'] in her innards. These caps are to shunt differential noise to ground. I've eschewed them, as they inevitably leak noise onto ground wire. Also, the current of the shunted signal could trigger a downstream leakage detector, or worse, present a shock hazard.
Heretofore, Felicia has relyed on the 'accross the line' caps [aka the 'betwixt and between' or 'X' caps] to convert differential noise to common mode noise, to be dealt with by the flanking transformers -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441.msg161831#161831&highlight=magic#161831
Given my 'do no harm' attitude, Felicia has relied upon those 'X' caps for fear (either real or imagined) of contaminating the mains ground. But looking at the schematic (top post of the previous url) there is a potential opportunity, if we ground the center tap of the input transformer's secondary and leave everything else alone. A substantial benefit of balanced power is the minimization, via cancellation, of reactive leakage currents -
http://www.equitech.com/articles/widescreen.html
This grounding of the input transformer secondary's center tap, will make those reactive leakage currents from the secondary windings of both transformers balanced with respect to ground and hence cancel to a large extent. The output transformer's output is already grounded at its centertap, which leaves only input transformer's input (primary) unbalanced with respect to ground. If that Felicia is housed in a conductive enclosure (and by definition, that enclosure is grounded to the mains ground) the result will be minimized ground leakage and corruption.
While transformer action can minimize common mode noise, it does not do the same with differential noise. But ideal transformer action does something very useful with differential noise - it converts single ended noise to differential BALANCED noise. And now, the noise shunt provided by 'Y' caps to ground is also balanced, and ideally much of that differential noise cancels, minimizing whathever crap is dumped onto the mains ground.
Long story short -
1. Accross the 2 lines of the secondary-to-secondary connected transformers [which already have the 'betwixt and between' cap(s) accross], connect 2 .1uf Jantzen from PartsExpress caps in series with their writing oriented symmetrically; meaning that the writing for both caps starts with both on the outside or both on the inside.
2. Connect the center of that cap string to the center-tap of input transformer's secondary.
3. Connect the mains 'star ground' to that same center-tap of the input transfomer's secondary.
I plan on testing this with the connections in 2 & 3 gang switched via a dpst switch, which would change between just having the 'Y' caps function as a .05uf accross the line, 'X' bypass, or additionally provide (whatever)benefits of the differential filtering of the 'Y' caps with minimized reactive leakage.
If you don't follow the instructions, wait until some feedback on initial results is posted. My schematic drawing program is behaving strangely, so I can't currently draw a picture.
FWIW
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very interesting, and easy enough to try.
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Here is a kludged together schematic
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4733)
Note that the only difference from the current standard -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4728)
is the addition of grounding to the input transformer secondary's center tap, and the grounded Y caps. These are shown with switches for testing the new topology's efficacy.
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Kudis Occam, JoshK and ciao all,
I've recently got into the mains filtering world (I live in Italy, just for voltage issues).
My first build was a simple parallel cap-based filter (a variation of Thorsten Loesch), already using motor cap (400VDC).
Recently I build a pairs of isolation filters (not balanced), each unit using a pair of 220->85 parallel RC zobel at 200KHz parallel 85->220 trafos.
These trafos (0,160 KVA) have no center tap. Would you think is it possible to use them at half the voltage input and parallelizing them (both input and output)? I should use 4 trafo for a Felicia, but theortically I can't see drawbacks, do you?
Thanks in advance,
Stefano
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Stefano,
Some schematics (required fusing is not shown) -
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4734)
But first things first. Optimize the powerconditioning characteristics before you complicate the circuit with extra transformers. While balancing is a substantial improvement, it would be far more efficient, cost/complexity wise to optimize the conditioning part first.
From your post on the AudioAsylum, I've no idea as to why you've put a Zoebel with a .01uf cap and 70ohm resistor in place of the Cx capacitor. The Cx capacitor(s) are critical for the optimal performance of the conditioner. In my version with a 175va transformer, I use an 18uf cap, bypassed with a .47, .1 & .01uf capacitior. I don't know the optimal value for your specific transformer, but would guess its between 4 and 20uf for the 'bulk' cap. You'd need to experiment. Your choices of bypass capacitors depends on your own cost benefit analysis.
For the Co caps, I use a 0.47, 0.1 & 0.01uf cap. I don't presently use a Ci cap.....
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Ciao Occam, ciao all,
thanks a lot for kind and fast reply I thought of something like in your second drawing :)
To be a bit more informative, I must say that my system already benefits a simple unit based on caps. This includese a 5uF motor cap, paralleled by a 0.1uF and a 220KOhm between L/N and a 0.1uF paralleled with a 220KOhm between N and E.
This unit lightly filter all the mains (arranged in a star - rather tree - geometry).
At the leaves I thought of adding a filter for digital nasties (a-la Jon Risch). Then I discovered Felicia. Now, I'm evaluating to modify my roadmap and include Felicia (this for the history).
The R in the zobel R/C between my trafos is meant to eat the energy (i.e. noise) at frequencies >= 200KHz.
A thing I cannot well understand is how can each parallel cap by itself eat the spurious energy? Is it correct to say that without a R, the energy is dissipated by the trafo winding (so the trafo gets hot)? Isn't it better to add a R eating the energy? Now, the R of my trafo is around 10Ohm. Rather than 18uF, 10Ohm wouldn't is be possible use a R=180Ohm, in series with the 1uF cap. What would you think?
Many thanks for sharing,
Stefano
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Anyone find another inexpensive source of transformers for Felicia? BG Micro is still showing no availability.
NB
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Stefano,
Its well and good that you've put a capacitive noise filter ahead of your 'Felicia'. Your Thorsten Loesch / VanEvers type filter (a more sophisticated version of Ci) is in parallel with all components connected to that mains line and therefore offers noise filtering to components not fed by your 'Felicia'.
But what you have implemented is not a Felicia, it is an isolation transformer, offering minimal powerconditioning. Similarly, if you add those extra transformers as shown in the schematics above, you'll simply have a balancing transformer. Do not assume that your capacitive filter ahead of Felicia eliminates the need for a properly sized Cx.
Please read the Felicia 'sticky' -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441
and Jon Risch's reply on AA -
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=tweaks&m=124472
Capacitors do not serve to dissapate noise, they are frequency dependant resistors, which simplistically function to divert noise away from your powered component. While your Zoebel might minimize a resonance, its noise filtering contribution is minimal. Put in a Cx cap. Experiment to optimize for your specific transformers.
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Ciao Occam,
> Stefano,
> Its well and good that you've put a capacitive noise filter ahead of your
> 'Felicia'. Your Thorsten Loesch / VanEvers type filter (a more
> sophisticated version of Ci) is in parallel with all components connected
> to that mains line and therefore offers noise filtering to components not > fed by your 'Felicia'.
Indeed, the TL type filter filters ALL components.
> But what you have implemented is not a Felicia, it is an isolation
> transformer, offering minimal powerconditioning.
I'm aware of this. I have not implemented any Felicia. Only yesterday I have been told of the Felicia project.
> Similarly, if you add
> those extra transformers as shown in the schematics above, you'll
> simply have a balancing transformer. Do not assume that your
> capacitive filter ahead of Felicia eliminates the need for a properly sized
> Cx.
> Please read the Felicia 'sticky' -
> http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441
Already read it, thank you.
> and Jon Risch's reply on AA -
> http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=tweaks&m=124472
Got it, thanks to your indication :)
> Capacitors do not serve to dissapate noise, they are frequency
> dependant resistors, which simplistically function to divert noise away
> from your powered component. While your Zoebel might minimize a
> resonance, its noise filtering contribution is minimal. Put in a Cx cap.
> Experiment to optimize for your specific transformers.
...hhhmmm, the real part of their Z acts effectively as a resistor, indeed. So it dissipates power = Re(Zc)*Ic^2. That's why I thought of the power issue... I will try anyway :D
Have a nice evening (at least from my point of view and meridian...),
Stefano
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.... hhhmmm, the real part of their Z acts effectively as a resistor, indeed. So it dissipates power = Re(Zc)*Ic^2. That's why I thought of the power issue... I will try anyway
Stefano,
This misunderstanding is my fault. I should not have describled capacitors in this function as 'frequency dependant resistors' but rather as frequency dependant reactances. Pure capacitors and inductors do not have resitance (actual components have the DCR of inductors and ESR of capacitors), they have reactance (X). Unlike resistance (R), reactance does not dissapate current, rather, it offers inertia to the flow of current. This is why if you hook up a properly rated large value capacitor accoss your mains line, it does not get hot, rather it is shifting the phase between the voltage and current waveform.
It is the combination (in the complex plane) of resistance and reactance which comprise impedance (I), and it is the frequency dependant impedance which determines the effectiveness of a filter, whether for a power filter or a loudspeaker crossover.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Kirchhoff%27s+Voltage+Law+reactance
All I can hope for is that you'll be pleasently surprised at the benefits of adding the Cx capacitor(s).
I do realize that the 27 pages of this thread is quite difficult to wade through, and I hadn't realized you were new to the thread.
I never cease to be amazed and impressed by the eloquence of non-native English speaking posters. All the moreso when I look of the language skills within my own family and country.
Regards,
Paul
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Hey Paul,
Stik it yous snothead. You aksing for troubel talkin' bad bout us Newawkers dat way.
:nono:
Bob
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Hey Paul,
Stik it yous snothead. You aksing for troubel talkin' bad bout us Newawkers dat way.
:nono:
Bob
Well, the one advantage of living in cosmopolitan New Yawk is leaning the meaning of curses in a variety of languages. Sadly, most of those curses were directed at me :? .
Kidding aside, in Europe many folks know at least 2 other languages quite well. Thankfully, my high school French is so bad, that in defense, others I'm trying to converse with will switch to English. My eldest son chose to attend RPI specifically because it didn't have a language requirement. My youngest is attending a liberal arts school, and is thankfully forcing him to gain fluency in another language.
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I hear this argument all the time -- Americans don't know enough foreign languages. But where do you practice such speech? Even my dad, whose mom came from Italy, can't speak a lick of Italian. I know as much Italian as he does. In Europe, you're just a short trip away from somewhere they speak a different language. Here (other than going to Brooklyn or the deep South), we're no where near anywhere a foreign language is spoken. Although I wouldn't mind learning Spanish, as their are a lot of people of Spanish lineage here (and in AZ, where I used to live).
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Stefano,
This misunderstanding is my fault. I should not have describled capacitors in this function as 'frequency dependant resistors' but rather as frequency dependant reactances. Pure capacitors and inductors do not have resitance (actual components have the DCR of inductors and ESR of capacitors), they have reactance (X). Unlike resistance (R), reactance does not dissapate current, rather, it offers inertia to the flow of current. This is why if you hook up a properly rated large value capacitor acco ...
Ciao Paul,
thanks for feedback and let me know if you want me to start writing some italian (oder, also weniger, Deutsch).
Being absolutely non contradictory, I remind some theory from my EE courses. Pehaps we could agree on:
http://www.mpdigest.com/Articles/Sept2001/atc/Default.htm
Aside from an academics point of view, ESR is typically a low value so perhaps we have no problems on power and my worries are exaggerated :)
I'll give the 10uF cap between a try :)
One (of many) thing I don't understand is how's that we have no leak current when between windings (at sufficiently high frequency the cap acting as a short)?
Ciao,
Stefano
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nature boy, on page 26 of this thread, Paul Occam posted this link to transformers that seem like they can substitute for the ones that BGMicro was carrying earlier.
http://www.mpja.com/directview.asp?product=7846+TR
Other than that, I recommend checking ebay. If you know what to look for, you can usually find something appropriate without too much trouble. If you don't know what to look for, it is probably a good idea to ask on this thread before purchasing a particular transformer, because sometimes it is easy to make careless mistakes, like getting a pair of machine control transformers that have dual secondaries but only single primaries. (Of course, if the secondaries were of just the right voltage for balancing to get the requisite output power, then all would be fine, but usually that is not the case and thus the sort of transformers I just described would be a no-go.)
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Hi NB,
A magnamonious benzefactor has supplied some candidate transformers for your magnum opius! PM me as to when we can try to char that cement slab of yours :D
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Have you compared the Felicia to the following websites? This guy does an excellent job describing how to wire the conditioner. But, after reviewing your documentation, I am wondering if his setup is really balanced power. What is the difference between using one transformer and two (in series) like you have?
http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw_2/CheapskateBP1.html
or his second site, showing the innards of a trancendant sound power conditioner...and his rebuild of the same. The TC page is claiming that their item is true balanced power...so what's different?
http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw_2/TranscendentSoundKit.html
http://www.transcendentsound.com/power_supply.htm
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Thomas' project is definitely balanced power but it is not a Felicia. Using two transformers with caps in between helps filter common mode and differential noise, so it is more than just balanced power.
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Audioferret,
Thanks for the references to those interesting URLs. As Josh said, while both of those projects, like the Felicia, provide the benefits of balanced power, the 'nulling' of reactive leakage currents on the fed components (to the extent that those center tapped output windings are balanced), those projects take a different approach (and I believe, efficay) towards the power conditioning function.
As described by ThomasW, both the Transcendent balancing conditioner and his own project use Avel Lindberg Y23 series toroidal transformers for balancing. Their charateristics are described in the PDF downloadable at the PartsExpress link for the 800va, dual 60v secondary toroid Y236905, and in the case of the Transcendent project, the 1000va version, Y236959. IMO, neither of these transformers are particularly appropriate for their role in balancing condintioners. Specifically, they lack the interwinding grounded shield between primary and secondary windings that you'd find in commercial balacing conditioners like those from Equitech and BPT. Due to the lack of that interwinding shield, the capacitive coupling between the primaries and secondaries are very high bandwidth and will do little to stop the passage of high frequecy noise. This is especially true in the case of differential mode noise, where the intrinsic rejection of common mode noise by transformer action does not come into play. In the case of Felicia, while its transformers also lack an interwinding shield, winding capacitive coupling is minimized by its physical construction that physically separates the primary and secondary windings, split bobbin construction.
I realize that both projects take steps external to the toroid for power conditioning. While I've no doubt that commercially available powerfilters, Corcom, Shafner,Schurter, etc... might be effective in that role, personally, I've yet to find any that I've found to my subjective liking. Additionally, I'd suggest that both of these toroidal based products would benefit substantially from a big honking X cap accross the primaries to facilitate turning differential noise into common mode noise, that those toroids might deal with more efficiently. I'll also point out that the choice of 115v primary/ 120v secondary transformers, could be problematic for those residing in high mains voltage areas. (Felicia has the opposite problem, in that it drops voltage). For an explanation as to how Felicia works -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441
And yes, I read ThomasW's follow ons 'improving the....", but the use of a highly capacitively coupled transformer, will forever constain the efficacy of those projects, or as my Mama allways told me -
'You can't polish a turd.'
This is not a criticism, simply an acknowledgement of the constraints conferred by the economic choices made.
While all this technical gobbledeguuk, might (or might not) be convincing, the proof is in the listening. I have heard the Felica compared to the Transendent Power Conditioner, as have others, right here in the Nasty Apple, home of truly appalling mains power.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18319.msg167642#167642&highlight=transcendent+felicia#167642
I'm certainly not stating that Felica is the be all and end all of balanced powerconditioners, but I will state that the Felicia, within the constraints of what it can power, is substantially [put your own adjective here, metrics being quite subjective :? ] better than balancing conditioners using transformers, with overwound, non shielded primaries and secondaries, whether they be EI or toroid cored. YMMV
FWIW,
Paul
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Audioferret,
Thanks for the references to those interesting URLs. As Josh said, while both of those projects, like the Felicia, provide the benefits of balanced power, the 'nulling' of reactive leakage currents on the fed components (to the extent that those center tapped output windings are balanced), those projects take a different approach (and I believe, efficay) towards the power conditioning function.
As described by ThomasW, both the Transcendent balancing conditioner and his own project use Av ...
Awesome! Thanks for helping me understand that. I think I will go with the Felicia and give it a try. Now that I have a better grasp on the physics, I am more comfortable with it. (I have a Mechanical Engeneering Background...not enough EE). ;)
I really liked the documentation on Thomas's site. As I build the Felicia, I will try to put something together like it and submit it to your circle for comment. (It may be a few months). Thanks for your help. ...Now I just need to get my hands on some transformers... :D
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The Monolithic Power Supply for the P3a and P1a seems to have satisfactory filtering and power conditioning on its own...but....
Would a felicia be redundant and unneccessary? I have currently budgeted/ordered parts for two Felicias (one for CD player, one for Pre-amp). I will test out the Felicia in different combos and get back to you all...
Just mumbling.
"One project at a time..." - says the wife
"What exactly do you mean by that?..." I reply
-Stupid answer
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Would a felicia be redundant and unneccessary?
Dunno. I'm casually familiar with the various Monolithic PSs, and don't know the specifics of yours.
I've not found a mains powered source component that hasn't benefitted from her alluring charms, including some that have built in filtering. If you're committed to building 2 already, test it on your monolithic kit, and see. If it provides requisite benefits, build another. Sharing a Felicia between 2 components is not ideal as a dedicated one for each, but I and others have found it to be a net gain over one filtered and one nekk'd.
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I think the Felicia will provide quite a step in the right direction even with adequate filtering in your PSU. Too much is never enough.
On a side note, I have been working on rewiring my Felicia and permanently mounting three of them in my old power cond. chassis. I plan to add some cool vintage meters for line voltage and amps drawn by the cluster. The Felicias are definitely worth the effort IMO.
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Guys
What is the construction difficulty of the Felicia relative to the BPT-type device referenced by Audioferret?
That website was pretty solid in laying out exactly what is needed and where you can get everything in addition to showing the construction step-by-step.
I'm going to have some time off for the holidays and would love to tackle something like this...but I just want to make sure I don't get in over my head.
BTW, this would be for an SB3 and turntable.
Thanks in advance for any feedback!
-Jim
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I have set up a scratch web site to document the Felicia project. I have studied this thread at length and feel this is a relativey simple project to build, so this should be quite manageable with some soldering skills and attention to detail. My web site will mimick Thomas's balanced power sites in style.
I should have all of my parts by next week and will knock it out over the weekend. I will keep you informed.
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Excellent! That will be extremely helpful to a great many folks, I would imagine, Audioferret.
Good luck!!
-Jim
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I think one of the reasons why Occam and I haven't made this a step by step tutorial was due to safety concerns. We figured if we basically gave you everything you need to know san the step-by-step instructions then only those with a modest amount of DIY'ing would build it, not the super-newbies. This is because we are dealing with line voltage which can kill if someone isn't aware of what they are doing.
It is a very simple project to do, provided you can understand the wiring of the transformers. Take some time to really sit down and try to figure out what is going on with the primary and secondaries of the tx. This will help you understand how to avoid making a grave error.
Paul has on numerous times, said, "try this" or "try that". I have to draw it out. This is because I am fair newb myself. But it does help.
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I think one of the reasons why Occam and I haven't made this a step by step tutorial was due to safety concerns. We figured if we basically gave you everything you need to know san the step-by-step instructions then only those with a modest amount of DIY'ing would build it, not the super-newbies. This is because we are dealing with line voltage which can kill if someone isn't aware of what they are doing.
It is a very simple project to do, provided you can understand the wiring of the transformers. T ...
Absolutely, Josh. For me, a picture-based walk-through would serve more as a santity check.
-Jim
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Well, I finally have all of the parts for my Felicia!
I will add pictures to my site this evening. The first page will cover the parts list I am using and pictures of the inventory.
"Doing the Happy Dance...
"Doing the Happy Dance..."
:D
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Well, I finally have all of the parts for my Felicia!
I will add pictures to my site this evening. The first page will cover the parts list I am using and pictures of the inventory.
"Doing the Happy Dance...
"Doing the Happy Dance..."
:D
Awesome....can't wait audioferret!
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1. I just got off the phone with Tammie at BGMicro about the 'slight' backorder problem with those $10 Signal A41 175va transformers. Supposedly, their supplier is working trough the mound of crap in front of the equipment housing those transformers. While I've heard that before, Tammie and Billy at BGMicro are 'stand up' folks. We shall see.
2. Audioferret is quite pleased with the results he has gotten-
http://www.geocities.com/ghaunadaur99/audio/felicia.html
with the alternative $18 transformers from MPJA -
http://www.mpja.com/directview.asp?product=7846+TR
anyone with a Signal A41 based Felicia in the Colorado Springs area that would participate in a comparison if AF is willing?
3. Folks have expressed an interest in mini-Felicias for powering things such as SB2/3 PSs and switching suppied DVD players, set top cable/satellite boxes, etc... The most appropriate transformers I've found for that application is equivalent to the VPP24-2330 Magnetec Triad from hosfelt.com for $6.49ea. I've sourced over 100 of them (Mrs. Occam is NOT pleased) as they were 'such a bargain'. I've sent out 8 of them to a fellow Circler, and will prod him for an evaluation as he has his own standard Felicias. If they work well, I can possibly get 200+ more that could be delived to builders for less than $4ea.
4. Given that multiple Felicias are large and hernia inducing, as well as having inherent problems with voltage sag, I've had some custom balancing transformers made. Ideally, these would be able to power 2-3 source components(a total of 120 watts) while providing isolation between components. But I've not yet gotten results equal to individual Felicias. If I can get the topology right (the components before and after), I'll simply give folks a link to the vendor, and start a Felicia II thread. My goal is a conditioner that is smaller, lighter, better or equal performing, and when powering multiple components, is less costly. That before and after topology will also serve as the basis for Felix, intended to power amps.
Which brings me to my own 'issues'. Development of DIY projects is best done with a Diy buddy. At some point, no matter how good my equations and measurements, the pedal hits the metal and one must subjectively evaluate their efforts. For subjective evaluations, 4 competent ears are always better than 2. But after 30 years, my wife simply ignores my requests to listen, and my sons run out of the house. I also tend to be distracted by things like bright shiny objects and kitty kats...... The major developments in the Felicia project have first been done with JoshK, and later with Tianguis. But these fellas actually have lives and other projects of their own. Soooo... I'm actually hoping to invite someone to help me, trapping him at Chez Occam over a weekend. You know who you are....
FWIW,
Occam
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You want me to fly all the way from Tokyo? :lol:
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3. Folks have expressed an interest in mini-Felicias for powering things such as SB2/3 PSs and switching suppied DVD players, set top cable/satellite boxes, etc... The most appropriate transformers I've found for that application is equivalent to the VPP24-2330 Magnetec Triad from hosfelt.com for $6.49ea. I've sourced over 100 of them (Mrs. Occam is NOT pleased) as they were 'such a bargain'. I've sent out 8 of them to a fellow Circler, and will prod him for an evaluation as he has his own standard Felicias. If they work well, I can possibly get 200+ more that could be delived to builders for less than $4ea.
Hmmm, that looks one does look very interesting for the two I need. I can definately take a hint since I just asked about my sb3/benchmark. The specs on that one look like its around 29VA when balanced which gives me much more wiggle room.
Thanks for the transformer research. Actually thank you for all of your work on this project. You've definately gone over and above a few extra miles with all of the extra work finding new transformers after the old ones dried up.
After I've got it up and running in a week or two I'll try to get some of the measurements to post.
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So Christopher, when will you be flying in? :) Actually, I'm quite pleased that you've actually gotten some 'World Power' type transformers. Not that some of those transformers you've already gotten aren't absolutely gorgeous. Let me know if you need some help sourcing the Jantzen and/or Auricap caps. If PE won't ship, or charges outrageously to ship to Japan, let me know.
Samples -
The problem is, the appropriate value for the for the 'bulk' betwixt and between capacitor (presently 18uf for the Signal A41s) is unknown, and it really does take some pain in the arse experimentation. A double pole, double throw switch really is needed, because aural memory really does suck. The present .47 and .1uf Jantzens shouldn't change (I hope), and the same goes for the .01 Auricap for the truly obscessive.
I'll make an offer to 3 potential builders, with the proviso that you already have a working Felicia, and a commitment to do that experimentation. I simply don't want to put a revised version mini-Felicia on this thread that isn't the equal of the present A41 based version, albeit at lower max power. So if you're interested, and up to the task, PM me.
And if the truth be told, my fondest wish is for that Felicia version II, based on that custom transformer that could support multiple source components while minimizing that voltage droop problem. The vendor who fabricated them for me is a true pleasure to deal with, and it would make everyones life so much easier. And it might save someone from a hernia :x
as ever,
Paul
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3. Folks have expressed an interest in mini-Felicias for powering things such as SB2/3 PSs and switching suppied DVD players, set top cable/satellite boxes, etc... The most appropriate transformers I've found for that application is equivalent to the VPP24-2330 Magnetec Triad from hosfelt.com for $6.49ea. I've sourced over 100 of them (Mrs. Occam is NOT pleased) as they were 'such a bargain'. I've sent out 8 of them to a fellow Circler, and will prod him for an evaluation as he has his own standard Felicias. If they work well, I can possibly get 200+ more that could be delived to builders for less than $4ea.
Well mine is obviously not a mini-Felicia but buiding an A41 based Felicia and the Squeezebox PS into the same chassis has worked out well. I am extremely pleased with the results. If anyone is contemplating this (mini-F for a SB), it's well worth the time and effort.
While I should post a follow up on "Felicia Squeezemore" in the original thread the short version is that it's awesome. :)
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Well mine is obviously not a mini-Felicia but buiding an A41 based Felicia and the Squeezebox PS into the same chassis has worked out well. I am extremely pleased with the results. If anyone is contemplating this (mini-F for a SB), it's well worth the time and effort.
While I should post a follow up on "Felicia Squeezemore" in the original thread the short version is that it's awesome. :)
I want one :cry:.
But, bgmicro is out of the A41. Hope they will get some in soon.
On the positive side, I just built a "normal" linear supply for my SB3, and am happy with the outcome.
Randy
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The problem is, the appropriate value for the for the 'bulk' betwixt and between capacitor (presently 18uf for the Signal A41s) is unknown, and it really does take some pain in the arse experimentation. A double pole, double throw switch really is needed, because aural memory really does suck. The present .47 and .1uf Jantzens shouldn't change (I hope), and the same goes for the .01 Auricap for the truly obscessive.
Sorry I can't help with the head to head against the original Signal A41s, but I'm certainly willing to help narrow down the bulk value. I can buy a whole lot of caps for the difference in price between parts for two Felicia and another BPT ;-). For finding the value do you think the brand will matter?
A 3amp 120V DPDT should be ok shouldn't it? I've actually got an extra right on top of my parts stack. I was going to make my TVC integrated floatable, soft, or hard grounded, but after running into some hum issues I took it out to help simplify troubleshooting.
You had mentioned earlier in the thread to Christopher that he might want to start at 15uf, but should I start even lower since this is a much smaller VA rating?
This is all just to further refine the sound right? If I'm following the schematic right I could actually leave them out altogether and it'd still provide balanced power, but I wouldn't get the extra filtering. I've only got one set of ears though. I can get my wife to help a little (final touches/tweaks), but an exhaustive better worse with caps wouldn't fly.
I've got a decent meter, but if something needs to be measured on a scope its a little harder since I can't do that on the fly.
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Jeremy, you have a scope? 8) What transformers will you be using?
A 1a fast blow fuse has sufficed for the Modwright pre and the TACT pre, a 3a switch should be fine for testing, I'd presume... I've 3 or 4 spare DPDT 25a toggles if you'd like to borrow one for a while, actually you can have one if ya promise to report back on your scope results!!!
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Samples,
Actually, the specific bulk capacitance accross the transformers' secondaries has a critical impact on the overall 'success' of a Felicia. One would think that because this cap is bypassed by a .47 & .1uf cap (and optionally a .01uf) that is wouldn't be particularly critical. The subjectivist/mathematician in me tells me this is obviously true. But sadly, the empirical subjectivist in me and many others tells a very different story. For that range settled on for the specific Signal A41 transformer, 15-20uf, we have tried Aerovox, GE, ASC & Amrad metallized polyprop in oil, GE foil poly in oil ($200+ retail), Solen, Aerovox, Bennic, Dayton and Jantzen dry metallized polypropolenes. Each and everyone had their own specific sonic signature. It really makes no obvious sense, as their specific characteristics and metrics did not correlate with subjective sound. They were far removed from any sonic path. They even had major effects on the subjective sound when feeding a CD transport. Any explanation I could come up with, if coming from someone else, I'd immediately charaterize as absolute horseshit. Same goes for bypass caps. The 33nf copper leaded silver mica from my secret stash that I expected to be the 'bomb' was a dud and reminded me of a ice pick driven into my eardrum. Go figure.
But luckily, the inexpensive Jantzens from PartsExpress turned out to be universally preferred and inexpensive to boot!
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=197#capacitors
I really wish they made a .01uf so I wouldn't even have to use that Auricap, which provides that last dollup of resolution. This is not to say that there aren't even better caps out there in the industrial component world or audiophilia, but I've not found them yet. And these Jantzens do satisfy my cheap SOB nature.
Yes, you can leave out the caps alltogether. You'll get balanced power and a modicum of common mode noise rejection via transformer rejection, and a schootch of differential noise rejection due to the limited capacitive coupling via split bobbin magic. But its the caps, working with the transformers that facilitate turning transverse noise into common mode noise that allow those transformers to do that voodoo that they do so well..... I'd also argue that the majority of the benefit of Felicia is powerconditioning, and balancing is that last 'icing on the cake'. One could also argue that for non mains grounded components that balancing provides no benefits whatsoever. But this really does require an analysis of the ground connections of the fed components and the components that it connects to, and how the grounds of interconnects fan out. You can experiment with this with a spst switch that leaves the output transformers center tap either grounded or floating.
Converging on the 'ideal' values and configurations for the various components is harder that one thinks in that aural memory really not as good as we think. What JoshK and I did was build 2 complete Felicias that we could rapidly switch (through actual switches) between to evaluate different caps, transformers, etc... in various roles feeding the same component. This is why I gave Gordy 8 of those 56va transformers. I've suckered :lol: Gordy and Natureboy into doing this initial heavy lifting and am wondering whether they'll still be talking to each other after they gone though this bonding experience. When I've asked various members of the NYRave to help me optimize the custom transformer based version, for some odd reason, they run away screaming. :roll: My youngest son has chosen to visit out of town for his college break and my oldest simply has chosen to be asleep when I'm awake.
By no means do I wish to dissuade you. I, apparently unlike everyone else around me, actually enjoy the exercise. But I've been working in various lab environments since I was 19, an ideal environment for someone with less than optimal people skills. I'd suggest that you let Gordy be miserable, and when he has done the hard stuff, swoop in and grab the glory. That was the most important lesson that the 2 Nobel Laureates I've worked for have taught me. :wink:
Regards,
Paul
PS - zeroing in on capacitor values isn't that hard if you remember that caps in parallel are additive and that for caps in series -
Ctot = 1/( 1/C1 + 1/C2)
So if you have a 10uf cap and 2 5uf caps you can make 5, 10, 15 & 20uf by combinations in paralell or 2.5 uf with the 2 5s in series, or 3.33uf with a with a 10 & 5 in series....
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Jeremy, you have a scope? 8) What transformers will you be using?
A 1a fast blow fuse has sufficed for the Modwright pre and the TACT pre, a 3a switch should be fine for testing, I'd presume... I've 3 or 4 spare DPDT 25a toggles if you'd like to borrow one for a while, actually you can have one if ya promise to report back on your scope results!!!
No, I don't have a scope, but I can get access to one. When my father-in-law's isn't loaned out and is working I could get him to run a few measurements.
Thats why I said I couldn't really do the scope stuff real time.
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Converging on the 'ideal' values and configurations for the various components is harder that one thinks in that aural memory really not as good as we think. What JoshK and I did was build 2 complete Felicias that we could rapidly switch (through actual switches) between to evaluate different caps, transformers, etc... in various roles feeding the same component.
Oh, I misunderstood where you were going with the caps and switch. I thought you meant to wire the hot and neutral through the center tabs and just wire in a cap at the top and one at the bottom.
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Jeremy,
And as you're not switching between two pairs of different transformers, your way makes a lot more sense. You could also make some male quick connects that would hold 'always in circuit' caps such as the bypasses and/or some of the bulk capacitance and use the dpdt to switch in parallel different caps into the circuit to hone in on the optimal.
Regards,
Paul
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Hmm, after seeing AudioFerret's measured results out of the much bigger MPJA transformers I'm begining to wonder if I shouldn't just use those.
It looks like they started sagging between 25-30 if I'm not misunderstanding something about the power factor (resistive load vs cap load).
Those others were only rated at around 59VA so if they sag around the same amount it won't be the 20 I need, but those MPJA look to be right at the level I need with a little safety margin.
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Dear Occam
I do have a balanced transformer (100VA) set up already for everything. Do you think I will get additional benefit by added the circuit described on this thread?
Thanks!
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ackcheng,
That would depend on the specifics of the balancing transformer you have. You weren't specific. Is it a single transformer, is there flanking circuitry, and if so, what? If its the equivalent of a BPT transforer, I'd say its more than good, as is. Is the transformer a split bobbin or a toroid? Is it shielded between primary and secondary?
Cascadeing transformers, within current constraints, is generally beneficial. It provides an opportunity for more common mode rejection via the extra transformer. It also provides a place to put capacitors in shunt accoss the lines connecting the transformers, which is very effective in dealing with differential noise, whithout concern about leakage to ground.
If you've access to very low cost surplus isolation transformers like Powervar or Oneac, you can feed your balancing transformer with a 3 amp version which should be more than adequate for a 100va transformer, which I assume, you're using for source components. Then you'd have to experiment with capacitance accross the conections between caps. There are no hard and fast rules, and much would depend on the specifics of your particular transformer.
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Thanks Occam,
I think I have made a typo. I should have been a 1000VA transformer. It is a toroid transformer with 0 - 220v primary and 2 sets of 0 - 110v secondary. Yes, there is a shield between the primary and secondary too.
I follow the circuit shown in this page
http://www.diyzone.net/phorum/read.php?f=5&i=224418&t=224130&v=f
I use this balance transformer to feed my CDP DAC and preamp. Do you think there will be any benefit to put another balanced transformer say, a 200VA 1:1 transformer in the CDP?
If you look at both the CDP and my 1000VA transformer on the whole, it just have the configuration you posted on the 1st page. But the transformers will be connected via power cable. The other difference is that both of my transformers will be 1:1
Thanks for your comment in advance!
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Hello, Occam & all,
I was wondering, why not insert a single 115 in/60-0-60 out transformer into the individual units? The unit's transformer could be the second half of Felicia.
That way, you could size the transformer appropriately for each preamp, etc. You would still have the balanced power, the filtration, etc. You would just be using an already-present 2nd transformer - that is, 2 transformers rather than the 3 transformers (Fel1, Fel2, and audio unit transformer) inherent in the Felicia system discussed heretofore.
You might achieve a reduction in cost that way, and you would certainly avoid the additional shelf footprint of separate Felicias if you have room for a second suitably-sized transformer in your audio unit.
Of course, sourcing the right transformers would be necessary...
The circuit I have in mind would look something like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4753)[/img]
C1 (not shown) could be an "x" capacitor; C2 & C3 would be selected as per previous threads, and everything to the right of the dashed vertical line is the original transformer, filter, and rectifier in the audio unit.
Does this look feasible to you?
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YoungDave,
Absolutely spot on! The idea behind the Felicia project was the use of surplus transformers, and with their recent unavailability, Felicia's topology makes less and less sense. When the $10 Signal A41 split bobbin transformers were available, it made sense to uses these dual 14v secondary transformers, arse to arse, to kludge a balanced power conditioner. This had the following benefits -
1. The pair of transformers was $20
2. Runnings them at 120v into 240v windings operate them at a very low flux level, albeit limiting the power available. Operating them in this manner is certainly inefficient, but as they were inexpensive, we could afford to literally throw massive amounts of iron at the problem.
3. The split bobbin construction (unlike conventional toroidal transformers) had minimal primary to secondary capacitive leakage which tremendously aided the power conditioning capabilities
4. The cascade topology allowed massive filtering (18uf) between the transformers, facilitating differential (transverse) noise filtering, which is quite a bit harder to do otherwise without putting substantial leakage and noise on the mains ground.
Felicia also has rather severe constraints -
1. Heavy and bulky, and ideally demanding a separate pair of transformers for each source component fed.
2. Sourcing problems for the transformers. Tammie and Billy at BGMicro really do want to fill those back orders for 100s of Signal A41 transformers, and will, if their source ever gets their act together.
3. Output constraints. A dual A41 based Felicia can power a component drawing 50watts before its output voltage drops below 110vac when fed from my 124vac mains. The $18ea alternative from Marlin P Jones can only provide about 35watts, despite its stated larger va rating, 240 vs 175. The smaller transformers, that Gordy has so graciously tested, are even more limitied.
Given this, the alternative of a more conventional balancing power conditioner is appealing. Now the trick is to do this with a single balancing transformer while maintaining the power conditioning performance. BPT (and no doubt, others) have done this quite well. But it requires additional circuitry above and beyond just the transformer. This will obviously require capacitors, and iff'n you want excellent performance, inductors, most likely in the form of common mode chokes, CMCs. You never know what type of transformer you're feeding in that component. If it has a conventional toroidal transformer, that simply isn't going to offer the contribution of the second Felicia transformer. If the component has a switching supply, not only do you give up whatever the common mode noise rejection of that PS's transformer, but you've usually a net noise contributor.
I'm working on it.... I've had some very high performance 150watt balancing transformers custom made. They don't have the voltage sag problems of Felicia, and can actually power 125+watts in components. But the circuitry needed to provide conditioning equal to Felicia and isolation between components, is not done to my satisfaction. Hopefully, we'll be able to build a smaller, lighter Felicia II to power 3-4 stout source components, with equal performance for less cost and grief that 3 individual Felicias.
Much of that circuitry is also applicable to providing non balanced power conditioning. So a Felix is possible that would basically be a DIY Audience Adept.
But the process is nowhere near the point I can offer anything concrete. And as flawed as Felicia is (the conditioner, NOT her namesake), within her constraints, she is IMO a wonderful addition to most systems.
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Hi Paul,
I'm confused as to why you seem to be giving up on Felicia? Surely, just because the appropriate surplus (ie. cheap! :) ) transformers are no longer available, the concept of having a pair of trannies with some caps in between to provide smoothed, balanced power shouldn't be discarded.
Shirley, it just means those of us who haven't got the cheap trannies will have to buy expensive trannies for their Felicias! :?
Regards,
Andy
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Ok, I'm officially building a couple now. I went with the MPJA transformers instead of the smaller ones just to be safe.
PE was out of the .1 Jantzen's so I just added those to the order for the Auricap .01s.
I'm going to go ahead and hardwire the input power cable, but I had a good outlet extra and I'm using a wall wart right now anyway so it would have been more interesting to go the hardwired output route.
It looked like everyone was just using rubber bands or tape to keep hardwired input lines from pulling back out.
I've got TONS of mdf scrap lying around so I'll be using that for the case. I figure in and out on the back, the front, top, and bottom blank, and then a grid of venting holes on the sides.
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Hey Andy,
Its not a question of giving up, rather one of building on what has already been done. Frankly, literally throwing a tremendous amount of iron at the problem is a straightforward, successful method of improving the power for your audio system. I've indicated that with my line voltage a single Felicia (with 2 of those Signal A41 transformers) can reliably source 50 watts (at 110vac when fed my typical 124ac line voltage). So its not unreasonable to ask how one can power 2 components with this while providing isolation between components. Isolation pretty much demands separate inductors for each component. Which leads to the consideration of how much power filtering can be provided from a combination of capacitive and non-transformer inductive components? Which leads you to the Audience Adept, PSAudio UPC/UO.....
When Felicia was first developed we had a shootout at a NYRAve meeting. At that meeting the Adept was clearly better than Felicia. Susequently, Larry and I spent a substantial amount of time tweaking Felicia, and repeatedly comparing her to a friends Adept. Now, we both prefer Felicia to that Adept when powering source components. But the Adept supports 12 individually isolated and filtered outlets, and is not current constrained, able to power amps, plasma TVs, and other power hungry applications. Similarly, Felicia is 'up there' with the tweaked BPTs, but again, constrained in what she can power.
I've certainly not given up on balancing as one facet in power filtering/ noise reduction. But IMO, noise rejection, and to various degrees, isolation between components are similarly important. And if our intent is to power more than 2 source components, other techniques should be applied and incorporated. Nor have I abandoned the non-norte Americanos. In addition to those 150va custom balancing transformers, I've also gotten a pair of 'World Power' 175va 115:230/115:230 (Triad vps230-760 usually $35usd, Signal A41-175-230, Hammond 185G230) transformers which will provide the same functionality for 220-230vac users.
Presently, Felicia is the best powerconditioner I know how to build. If you actually want to pay retail, the 'world power' 175va, with dual 18v secondaries would work a treat, with lower lossses, and slightly better filtering. These are made by Signal (A41-175-36), MCI (449), Triad(VPS36-4800 $35 from Allied or Mouser), Stancor, Hammond (185G36), etc..... all the same. But at $35ea, its getting quite spendy.
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If you want balanced power, you need dual windings (or a center tap) on the output side.
Under the right set of design conditions, you could get away with just a single input on the primary side; i.e., if you had a transformer designed to take 120V input and split it into two 60V outputs on the secondary side. Such transformers are not all that common, but they do exist, and some of them were designed with balanced power applications in mind.
A much more common type of transformer is one that has dua ...
I'm a johnny-cum-lately to this thread so apologies for this question. As far as I can tell some of the commercially produced balanced power supplies use just a single toroidal transformer. Do you guys believe that the 2 transformer recipe has advantages over the single transformer, or was it just driven by (cheap) transformer availability?
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OK before everyone shouts at me I've just read further back and answered my own question. Sorry!!
More interestingly perhaps, I'm in the UK and I'm determined to make a Felicia. Any other UK lurkers out there who might want to join the search for some suitable, locally sourced, transformers?
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Really, Studley, I can't imagine anyone here shouting at you. I'm just stumbling around in the dark, and nobody has shouted at me yet...
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Thanks YoungDave.
Just finished work so I'm off to the pub . . .Cheers!
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Studley,
Pages 16-19, 24 & 25 of this thread are have discussions about building for 220-240vac, with some Circle members in GB, Builder Brad and RonR.
Those exchanges mention and link to specific transformers.
Along the lines of a single transformer based conditioner, you do have some nice transformers available to you -
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=7740174&N=401
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/53687.pdf
and Farnell has them from 60va to 500va at very reasonable prices. They'd provide you the balanced (split phase) 230vac directly, though you'd need ancilliary circuitry to provide additional filtering and isolation between components.
There is also -
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=3304644&N=401
which would allow some cusomization of output voltage.
I've not used either, nor has anything progressed on the single transformer based conditioner that I'd have anything of value to offer at this point.
RS also carries Block manufactured balancing transformers. Simply search on RS for 'block safety isolating transformers' and the ones marked 'seconday 2x115' are the ones. They carry the same TIM series encapsulated as Farnell, at a higher price, but in addition they carry the STEU EI frame transformers which allow +-15vac adjustment to the 230/400VAC primary.
Regards,
Paul
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Occam
Thanks for that. Having now read at least some of the earlier posts I think I'll go for the 2 transformer recipe as it seems the better bet.
And whilst we're talking can I just say what a top bloke ( I'd hazard that roughly crosses the pond as "righteous dude"?) you are for your contributions to these threads.
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Hey Studley,
Dunno about the 'top bloke' part, but I do recall overhearing some Geordies refer to me as a 'right wanker'.....
A low cost way of building a unit that should be able to power a 60watt source component would be to use for the input transformer a -
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=696821&N=401
and for the output -
Part # 835-175
http://www.jprelec.co.uk/
at 'advanced search' simply seach on the part #
These total less than 22GBP, so vaugely qualify as an Occam cheap SOB special.
The first transformer has a single primary of 230v, while the second has split primarys 120/120vac (grounding the center tap of the series connected primary will provide the needed 240vac balanced output), while both have dual 20v secondarys. This will move the output voltage upwards, compensating for some of the losses.
But I've not used any of these transformes, so I'd suggest sending PMs to RonR and Builder Brad and get their advice and feedback.
Regards,
Paul
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Occam
Don't fret, Geordies think everyone is a right wanker. Me, I'm a Yorkshireman; we know what's what.
I'll check out the Farnell gear. I've already sent a pm to Brad. (Hope he's not a Geordie!)
I'll be interested to see how the development of a Felicia 2 goes; I have a pair of Aleph 2 monoblocks that drink juice like there is no tomorrow - 600 watts each!
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Ok, my dual Felicia is alive now.
My son came down with Mono last week and was in the hospital for extra fluids for a day so I didn't get a lot of extra time to work on it this weekend. I got the box finished up Monday night and was up till midnight wiring all the transformers last night. I know the fuses wander from a straight line, but I was in a hurry so I didn't get too concerned about lining up the rear holes (can't see them from the seating ;-)). I also didn't think about 3/4" mdf being too deep for panel mounted fuse holders so I had to drill from the backside with a bigger bit to let the lock screw catch.
4 MPJA transformers feeding an extra Hubble hospital grade outlet I had lying around with a hardwired volex cord. 1amp fast blow fuses in all 5 holders. I'm using the big Jentzen and .47 Jentzen, but I also have .1 and .01 Auricaps
Right now I've got it plugged into Running Springs Audio Duke, but when I get time this weekend I'm going to compare it to right out of the wall. I just got the Duke so I'm going to borrow the HT systems BPT 3.5sig to do a head to head so I may also compare to the Felicia.
Pictures are linked instead of inline so they don't slow down page loading.
Inside from front (http://www.phoenixlogic.com/images/aveq/felicia/insidefront.jpg)
Inside from rear (http://www.phoenixlogic.com/images/aveq/felicia/insiderear.jpg)
Fuse holders, cord, and outlet on rear (http://www.phoenixlogic.com/images/aveq/felicia/rearcloseup.jpg)
Side vents (http://www.phoenixlogic.com/images/aveq/felicia/ventholes.jpg)
I've got a few questions for other builders.
1: Is my venting enough? Its a larger box so I didn't think I needed swiss cheese, but I don't want to catch it on fire either.
2: Is it stable right away or does it take a while to "charge" up the caps? When I first plugged it in the Benchmark was good right away, but the Squeezebox was really flaky. Now, it just so happens that I had a Windows update "fixing" the server box at the same time so I went ahead and booted it just as a safety measure. After lunch when I checked on it, it seemed to be fine. Was that just a server fluke or do the caps take a while to stabilize after getting voltage?
3: What kind of field EMI/RFI have people expeienced from these? How close have people been able to put them to other gear? I know without a metal case I've hurt myself in that aspect, but the MDF and paint were free. I'm not seeing any problems myself, but it never hurts to ask around.
I like to again thank Occam and all the other people involved in getting this design just right.
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you know a cheap as mud solution to the power cord strain relief I often use is the clamps used in electrical service boxes sold at HD. They aren't anything special to look at but work a charm and can be used and reused.
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Congratulations SamplesJ! I'm anxious to hear your thoughts on the BPT / Felicia comparison!
As for vents, the a41 transformers I used have always remained stone cold and no venting is needed.
I also was running 6 of the a41's in a wooden box / no internal shielding within 6 inches of my FM tuner with absolutely no effect on the tuner's reception or sound... all IC's were located pretty far away though...
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Samples,
Very nice indeed!
My experiences are similar to Gordy's, My 3 x Felicia, 6 transformers in total is housed in a sealed wooden box, and I've not had any heat issues.
Unlike toroids, EI core transformers do have a goodly amount of EM field (not RF), so I'd keep the box at least 2' away from components.
I'd suggest you twist the 'paired' leads together, input, output, and the wire to and from the secondaries, minimizing potential interference pickup.
Dan Banquer also judyifiably 'smacked me upside the head' for leaving the uninsulated leads of the Jantzen caps uninsulated. He is right. :oops: While ideally the consequence of a short between leads is a fuse blowing, the laws of unintended consequences seems to have grave hostility towards me.
I'm looking forward to your comparisons to those 'big dogs' (Gulp) :?
Regards,
Paul
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Paul,
Which way is the magnetic field around the Signal tx's? I got to thinking about my layout in my case and was wondering if it was decent or not. I never took E&M and don't think I've ever read which way it is. Does the right hand rule apply to E&M the way it does with torque?
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I'm not Paul, but I can tell you the right hand rule does apply to EM fields, so if you know the direction of the current, then you can use the right hand rule to figure out the direction of the mag field..
Randy
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Hey Studley,
A low cost way of building a unit that should be able to power a 60watt source component would be to use for the input transformer a -
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=696821&N=401
and for the output -
Part # 835-175
http://www.jprelec.co.uk/
at 'advanced search' simply seach on the part #
These total less than 22GBP, so vaugely qualify as an Occa ...
Occam
re the output transformer, JPR have a minimum order value of £30 so I'm looking for an alternative from Farnell. Would this be suitable do you think? (This question will probably reveal to you how little knowledge I have of this subject!):-
https://secure3.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=696821&N=401
Thanks
Ian
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By design, the link provided goes dead quickly. The trannie in question is 696821 on page 3 of the following datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/67538.pdf
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Doh! just realised that the alternative output transformer I asked about is the same one that Occam recommended as the input transformer, which obviously means that its not optimal as the output, otherwise Occam would not have recommended a different one.
Logic in action. Shame I didn't engage brain before typing in the first place.
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Well I finally had a chance to listen to the Felicia as part of a critical comparison in my 2 channel system. I hauled down my BPT 3.5 sig and I had a RSA Duke down there. I went ahead and put my system config in my sig.
Felicia is using a hardwired Volex cord. The RSA Duke is using their supplied Cardas power cable. The BPT is using the supplied Litz power cable.
I just bought the Duke used about the same time I finished the Felicia so I've been running them in together. Since I had a BPT in the theater room I wanted a chance to see if a "nice" balancing conditioner made a difference compared to the Felicia.
The biggest thing I found is that the Felicia and the BPT do NOT play well together. Plugging the Felicia into the BPT yielded a very congested sound. It was almost a muffled sound, but it still had a bit of an edge to the highs.
While I really like my BPT in the HT system for what it does for the video compared to the other gear I've had in there, it isn't the optimal for audio to my tastes. My 2 channel system is a bit on the analytical side so I was happy to have the extra PRAT of the RSA conditioner. The RSA also brought out much more detail and had much more powerful bass. Maybe it was just the recent impressions of lugging the thing downstairs, but the BPT seemed to weigh "heavy" on the music. Ironically the BPT caused much more transformer noise out of my amp than the RSA device.
Now while my primary purpose was to compare the RSA to the BPT I also wanted to compare the BPT to Felicia since they are both balanced power conditioners. Even though the Felicia is a DIY design for much less money than the BPT it comes very close (inside its limits). Like I said before the BPT feeding Felicia sounded bad to me. Using the BPT for the amp only and the Felicia for the Benchmark and SB3 yielded very good sound. It was very dynamic and I could easily be happy with it. However with everything plugged into the BPT (on seperate duplexes of course) it was just a little bit more extended on the top with a little more sparkle in the highs at the cost of a tiny bit of PRAT. This was a very very close comparison and on a couple of the pieces I actually preferred Felicia over the BPT.
Once I switched back to the RSA + Felicia I think I got the best of both worlds. The nice extended highs were back, but it was still very dynamic and PRATful. I did try the RSA feeding only the amp with Felicia out of the wall, but it just didn't have the sparkle in the highs. I also like the idea of keeping the system in the RSA gear because occassionally I have a voltage drop and the RSA gear passively smooths that out (no drop outs since I've put it in the system :->) I can't really compare the RSA Duke to the Felicia because the Duke only has two outlets.
The Felicia was definately worth it just for the piece of mind having the two devices totally isolated from each other via transformer. The TrippLite ISOBar I was using to isolate the two devices (nowhere near as effectivly) was almost as much as the transformers. Even with the added costs of the caps I think Felicia is a smoking deal. It was so so close to the BPT and potentially better depending on the other system factors and taste. Of course I don't expect the Felicia design to put Chris out of work because it has a very limited application due to the 20-30watt max drive. The BPT is a big brute and can easily power my 2 channel system or even whole HT system. I actually had a 200x7 amp and the rest of the theater running from just the BPT at one point. So while the BPT has certain advantages there is something to be said for the dual transformers and extra filtering caps.
As a way to make my Felicia better I wonder if the missing sparkle in my Felicia straight out of the wall means I need to tweak the filtering caps. Maybe some noise is sneaking through it that both the BPT and RSA stop. I also have to admit that I've not yet gone back and twisted my wires to help reject the last bit of noise so maybe it is as simple as that.
EDIT:
I should point out that just using the Felicia alone was a major improvement over the wall and is well worth the time and expense. Any "failings" I heard were minor issues (except the BPT feeding the Felicia) and probably wouldn't have been noticed without the other device right there to compare to. There is also a 10x to 20x cost difference between the Felicia and the other gear so a minor nit when compared is actually pretty nice praise.
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Josh & Randy,
Indeed, EM fields follow the 'right hand rule' but we've to consider that massive hunk of permeable iron diverting the magnetic flux. Assuming the question is in regards to optimizing the orientation of the transformers with respect to each other, ctviggen made an excellent suggestion- use that second transformer as a transducer, i.e. power one of the primaries with ac loading the secondary with 30-60ohm resistor accoss so that that transformer is passing 30-15 watts (actually half that if the primaries are connected in series rather than parallel, but you get the jist...) Vary the orientation of a second transformer in actual practical positions with the primary connected in series to a high impedance set of headphones. When the 60hz in the phones is minimized, you're also minimized the coupling between the transformers. I think?????
Studley,
While the primary of the input transformer can be a single 230 or 240v winding, the primary of the output transformer must be a split 115:115 or 120:120volt winding so that when we connect them in series, we can ground the center tap and produce 230-240v split phase balanced AC.
I'd suggest sourcing the input and output transformers from different vendors because using a 230v input primary and a 240v center tapped output primary (with the secondary volages equal) would have raised the output voltage of your Felicia by about 4% increasing the range of output wattage prior to the output voltage falling below some arbitrary point.
Jprelec.com is the only UK source I know of that carries transformers with 120:120 v primary windings, with the appropriate secondary volages. I can't help you with their mininum order requirements, but you might get them dirctly from clairtronic.com , their manufacturer.
[EDIT - CORRECTION OF]CORRECTION:Rapidelectronics actually carries the whole series 230, 115:115, 120:120 of primaries from Clairtronics and the highest secondary voltage matching amongst those primaries is the dual 20v secondary, which I'd wire in series.
http://www.rapidelectronics.co.uk/rkmain.asp?PAGEID=80010&CTL_CAT_CODE=30523&STK_PROD_CODE=M30995&XPAGENO=1
http://www.rapidelectronics.co.uk/rkmain.asp?PAGEID=80010&CTL_CAT_CODE=&STK_PROD_CODE=M72692&XPAGENO=1
So for the output transformer I'd suggest the 88-0452 and for input either the 88-3460 or 88-3511. While the 88-0452 is a bit more expensive than the same 120:120v pri trans from JPRelec, and the 88-3460 a bit more than the 230v pri trans from Farnell, you can order both transformers from the same vendor and they're both from the same manufacturer. Dunno if Rapid has a minimum order though.... :? Rapid also has a polyprop film/foil 1000v cap PN 10-2526, that is inexpensive and might? do well for bypass duties.
Ian,
I'm quite pleased with your evaluation and that Felicia is even in the same ballpark as the BPT and Running Springs. :D I've never used the transformers from MPJA and wish you'd been able to construct yours with the cheaper (but possibly better performing surplus ones from BGMicro). I simply don't know if twisting the wires would have helped much, but do suggest you give it a try. Now, if we can find some brave soul who would implement Felicia with a real bespoke powercord (costing substantially more than Felicia herself) whe could see if (as Emril says)we could bring her up a notch.
Feliciatations to all,
Paul
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thanks again Paul.
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Thought I'd add a couple pictures of how I ended up constructing the Felicia.
Here is the back of my multi-Felicia:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=6315)
Insides from the side:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=6316)
Insides from the top:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=6317)
Its just about to be fired up to test some voltages. Just need to hook up the non-filtered outlets. I still plan to add a voltage meter and an ammeter to the front panel that will show the line voltage and current draw from my system. However, I need to mill the front panel first and I will probably have to take out one of the Felicias because I have a feeling it will be too cramped as configured.
I used a 15amp, dual pole breaker instead of fuses, much like the Audience Adept Response does. I hard wired in my power cord, made from VenHause flavor 4 star quad wire and a Furutech 20amp plug I had lying around. The strain relief is a $.40 basement breaker box special, but it does the job quite nicely.
One of the Felicias has an ERO (siemens) 0.1uf 1200V cap in position #7 instead of the Auricap since I was one short, so I'll have to make a comparison.
Like I said, I will most likely pull one of the Felicia's out and build it into its own enclosure for use probably with my HT system instead. I just have a feeling they are too close together and there will be too much EMI interaction.
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Just plugged it in to test voltages....everything cool....AND....no hum at all! No audible mechanical hum even with my ear right down next to them. I had always gotten a hum up really close.
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Dang Josh, thats lovely. How do you make those cutouts for the outlets, etc...?
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painfully....the manual way with a nibbler. I first drill some holes with a step bit and then nibbled it to what I wanted. Did it a few years back when I orginally had the OneACs in there. It took a really long time and my hand way aching for a week.
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To add a few more pictures to this thread.... This is a combo Felicia with a 5V linear PS for my SB3 which is off being modded by RWA, it'll be back soon....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=784)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2389)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=13859)
These are the MPJA xfmrs, with just the load of the linear power supply, I have a very faint audible hum (ear right next to the xfmr) in the orientation shown here. I also had it set up with the output xfmr laid down like the input and it had no noise, so I'll fool around with that when I get the SB3 back....
Thanks to all for the great idea and technical info! :D
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Very nice and looks great, considerably better than my Felicia/SB combo. :thumb:
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I have a quick question - does this provide a similar functionality as a Monster 3500 MKII or different ?
The MKII is on sale for $99 at onecall. It provides surge suppresion too and has some other features like delayed switching etc. I was thinking of making a Felicia but am also considering buying it and just wanted you guys opinion. You can also power your receiver through it.
Thanks
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Hello Srinivas,
Welcome to AC! Here's a nice option to the Monster and with any luck it'll mount inside your receiver for a invisible solution! http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=536&Cid=9067a10eba948294f2ed682195a7d699
I'll pm you a link to a monster cable thread...
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Srinivas,
They're really very different beasts. The Monster is a tremendous material bargain, will be able to power your total system, and (nominally) provides isolation between groupings of equipment, as well as specific surge supression, It also provide surge supression to your external video lines.
A Felicia on the other hand only filters one source component (low power), the preferred transformers are currently unobtainium, and the surge supression is self sacraficing for catostrophic events (a lightning strike will vaporize the primary winding of the input transformer protecting the component it feeds). And you've got to build the frigg'n thing yourself.
That being said, if you live in an enviroment with noisey mains power (like an apt building in NYC) the benefits to the component which Felicia powers are substantially greater. It really is an excellent power conditioner, and is up there with the very best.
The Monster is far more flexible, comprehensive, sequences power on and off, and at that price is a no brainer for a 'family' AV system. If you want and need the very best in powerconditioning, it costs, either in time and grief (DIY), or actual dollars for something like an Audience Adept, BPT, Running Springs, etc.... (note - if I left off anyone's bespoke favorite out its just cause I've not personally heard them, and am not dissing them)
And I'll actually admit that I've bought one of these bargain Monsters for my family room video system. It will provide some nominal improvements, but more importantly I wan't that surge suppression. Last time ConEd dug up the street, dropped power, and reconnected, they fried my DVD player. And maybe the Monster warranty will apply. If you read their fine print, their 'protection' warranty is only valid for UL approved components plugged into it.
I personally wouldn't plug MY audio system into it, I know what Felicia does, and besides, I ain't got no steenk'n UL approved components in my audio system.
Regards,
Paul
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Thanks for the suggestions. I already have a good surge protector but was looking for clean AC sources. There is no hum in my system. I have a fairly decent system(probably low end wrt most folks here) - a Onkyo 702, combination of Acoustic Research and JBL speakers (AR went out of business - so settled with JBLs for rear 3 ) and a Mirage S12.
The sound is decent but it lacks something. I cannot put it in words but compared to some hearing I did at local Audio shops, there is some tune up that can be done. Thats why I thought of trying in stages - Power, cables, layout etc. Felicia looked like a good start.
Regarding replacing power cords, except my DVD, all of them have them attached inside. So I cannot open the components(still under warranty). Would it help if I ran a DIY cable upto the componet and connect the powercord(probably coil it and tie it) to this cable ?. I read somewhere wrapping in aluminum foil helps :D - is that true ?
The problem is neither me or my friends are good at detecting deficiencies in listening tests. We cant decide what is lacking or pronounced. I know the if it sounds good to you rule...but when I hear a improved sound, I start to realize what was missing. I wish there was some material on DVD to help with these.
Thanks
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FINALLY SCORED SOME 28V TRANSFORMERS. Looks like the Felicia project will begin soon. Thanks Gordy and Paul. :wave: :wave:
NB
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Hi Paul,
I am using a Felicia to supply the regulated PS x 2 for my Orion active x-overs and a squeezebox PS, so I guess that these are definately very low current sources for the Felicia. I am just a little concerned about the running temperature of the Felicia - I know that it is unseasonably hot here in the UK at the moment, however this DIY component runs to hot to touch and is I am wondering if this is normal?
Brad
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Hi Brad,
Some questions first. Is your Felicia running hot with no load attached? If so, then the 'betwixt and between' caps are forming a resonant circuit with the transformer's secondaries and we should take this up in PM. If this is a situation where its getting hot only when powering a component, we need to discern how hot. I couldn't find the specific specification of your 100va split bobbin transformers, but I assume the insulation is (typically) rated 130 oC. Transformers running at their full rating, typically run very hot, like burned finger hot.... If you can touch the transformers for 10sec before having to remove your finger, its running well within spec.
Are you running 2 regulated supplies plus the SB supply off a single Felicia? If so, the load might simply be too high and the solution would be to build another Felica to share the load. Do you have some way of measuring the loads? If not, can you measure the input and output voltage of the Felcia with no load applied? And then the output volatages with the various loads applied? Then, you could also measure the voltages output by your Felica when powering differing incandescent lightbulbs, 20w, 40watt, 60watt, and then by comparison we can estimate the loads demanded by your components with a reasonable accuracy.
But in the scheme of things, if Felica is hot but not finger burning hot, and your various fed component are operating properly (voltages staying in regulation), you're probably fine. Also, if you've fused your Felicia, as you should, with a .4-.5amp fuse and its not blowing, you should be fine.
Regards,
Paul
PS - Is your Felicia providing any subjective benefits?
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Hi Paul,
Thank you!
here are the details for the Felicia in question:
"3.3uf Polypropylene 630v cap b+b using the 100VA Clairtronic JPR transformers and a array of 0.0047 and 0.1 uf x rated caps on the output"
GK 1R V IN 227 V OUT 209
Arcam @8SE V IN 227 V OUT 211
Pioneer media box V IN 226 V OUT 207
Pioneer DVD 868avi V IN 228 V OUT 217
Sky+ satellite box V IN 227 V OUT 214
Orion power supply V IN 229 V OUT218
60 Watt light bulb V IN 231 V OUT 200
43 Watt light bulb V IN 227 V OUT 204
I will take the mesurements for the present load later today and report back. I will also test the Felicia without a load to see if it still runs hot, FYI the transformers are installed in an unventilated cabinet.
I am very happy with the performance of this low cost upgrade, the best improvements were heard on source components such as Cd players and DVD players. I am also aware that I may obtain even better results with a larger value b+b capacitor.
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2, 4, 6, 8 you really ought to ventilate..... :lol:
Brad,
Your numbers seem to be in line, but any transformer will heat up with any significant load. If there is no where for that heat to go, you'll ultimately compromise the longevity and performance, especially of the nearby capacitors. My own tripple Felica with 6 175va transformers is housed in an unventillated wooden Ikea box. To dissapate heat, I simply leave the lid off. (but that does require a significant other with substantail understanding, or at least one accepting of aberrant behavior) The easiest thing to do would be to drill some holes in your Felicia's enclosure with some holes to allow some airflow.
But your measurements do point out a significant constraint of the Felica design. Because we're cascading transformers, with increasing load, we get voltage drop. This isn't significant until the voltage drops to the point where the fed component doesn't recieve sufficient voltage to maintain regulation of regulated supplies or the voltage drops to where the operating points are skewed. These limitations are specific to the individual components.
I assume you're using the Clairtronic 100va 120/120:20/20 transformer from JPR. One possible way to minimize the voltage drops associated with increasing loads is to 'goose' the initial output voltage from your Felicias. If you're pleased with your Felicia performance and want to 'go forth and multiply'. You could use your existing 120/120 primary transformers for output and feed them with Clairtronic 115/115 or 230v primary transformers with the same secondary volatge (20/20?). These are available from RapidElectronics -
http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?id=-1&tier1=Electronic+Components&tier2=Transformers&tier3=Chassis+Transformers&tier4=Chassis+mount+transformers&moduleno=72692
Either the single 230v primary 88-3511 or split 115/115v primary 88-3460 (only the output transformer require the split winding to provide a groundable center tap to provide balanced power) should provide about a 5% boost in output voltage. Ian (Studley) is currently working on this exact configuration. He is also experimenting with various values for those 'betwixt and between' capacitors. Hopefully he'll post about his results soon.
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Paul
I'm still waiting for the Claritycaps (for across the output) to arrive. They did tell me that they were out of stock but hopefully I will have something to report in a week to two.
regards
Ian
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Hi Paul,
I already have a couple of spare Farnel 230v input transformers, as previously recomended in order to minimise the voltage sag.
I will try one of those out very soon....and provide the new readings on my kit.
PLUS the 2,4,6,8 Ventilate
Cheers
Brad
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I've just purchased 4 Signal A41-43-24 transformers for ~5.00 ea. on eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Signal-Transformer-A41-43-24_W0QQitemZ7535288107QQihZ017QQcategoryZ4665QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Signal-Transformer-A41-43-24_W0QQitemZ7535288107QQihZ017QQcategoryZ4665QQcmdZViewItem)
I intend to build a Felicia to power a 20W Rotel RCD-02.
I suspect / hope these will be adequate. Any comments?
Would anybody be so kind as to mark up the schematic:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4728)
With the actual pin numbers on the Signal A41 series that correspond to the points in the schematic.
for example:
Ingress Transformer Hot Primary (F1) connects to Pin# __
Ingress Transformer Neutral connects to Pin# __
Ingress Transformer Secondary (top in diagram) is Pin# __ and connects to Egress Secondary (top) Pin# __
Ingress Transformer Secondary (bottom in diagram) is Pin# __ and connects to Egress Secondary (bottom) Pin# __
Egress Primary (F2) (top) Pin# __
Egress Ground Pin# __
Egress Neutral (F3) (bottom) Pin# __
To put the transformer in serial instead of parallel mode, which pin numbers are tied together?
I think I've got the gist of things and don't mind poking around with a meter, but I sure would find it comforting to be clear on what's going where. Then when I poke with the meter, any issues will be hopefully less ambiguous.
I'm sorry if I'm sounding stoopid, but it's still not so clear. Perhaps when the traffos arrive and I have my meter, it'll be more obvious. For the moment, I only have this schematic: http://www.belfuse.com/Data/DBObject/page_08.pdf (http://www.belfuse.com/Data/DBObject/page_08.pdf)
My objective is to have things so that a trained monkey such as myself with the Signal A41 can put together a Felicia and not electrocute myself!! :stupid: :wink:
Thank you so much for your help!!
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Anyone have a felicia for sale or have time to build me one? i'd build it myself, i don't understand the schematics :(
pictures of the actual parts would be easier to follow for me :lol:
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So, I've read through this thread a couple of times and I'm starting to think I'll be disappointed with the 43VA version of the Signal A41s.
I'm going to order either:
Hammond 185G36 (from Partsconnexion)
or
Triad VPS36-4800 (from Digikey)
The Hammond is a couple of bucks cheaper...
Anybody know if one is any better than the other?
Thanks.
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Ozone,
Both of those transformers are 'World Power' chassis mount transformers and are nominally exactly equivalent, as are the Triad, Signal, etc... versions. Using a 36v secondary version, as opposed to the 28v Signal Transformer, might require slightly less capacitance accross the line than the presently recommended 18uf.
I'm confilicted about your building a Felicia with new parts @ $40/transformer. In the scheme of things, its still a value in comparison to commercial offerings, but not the bargain when you could source them for <$10ea. I think I know someone with a few spare transformers and will have them PM you. Also, if the components you wish to power are less than 15watts actual draw, I might have a less expensive surplus source for a different, but appropriate transformer.
You2tup,
PM me with your location, and I might be able to help. The real problem is shipping a Felicia via UPS, FedEx, etc.... and not having them destroy it in transit. Been there, they destroyed it......
Regards,
Paul
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I have 4 of the original Signal transformers, PM if interested. Cost is whatever I paid plus actual shpping. Prefer a postal money order but will accept paypal if you want to cover the fee.
Mike
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Thanks guys for your generosity. I'll sending you both PMs.
A while back, I put a Kwak Clock in my CDP and it made quite an audible difference.
I messed about with caps and op-amps but the differences were slight in comparison.
Everything I've read about the Felicia leads me to believe that I'll see another difference that rivals the addition of a decent clock in my CDP.
I'm very excited about this project and I'm very grateful for any assistance may render me.
Cheers!! :beer:
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Well, I just received my caps from Solen Electronique:
C1 = 18uF 400VDC Solen (http://www.solen.ca : PB1800, +/- 5%)
C2, C5 = 0.47uF 630VDC Solen (http://www.solen.ca : SM047, +/- 3%)
C3, C6 = 0.1uF 630VDC Solen (http://www.solen.ca : SM010, +/- 3%)
I also bought a couple of the following:
0.01uF 1200VDC Solen (http://www.solen.ca : SN001, +/- 3%)
I bought enough caps for a dual Felicia (4 transformers) and I was wondering where it would be best to put the 0.01uF caps:
<1> Between the Transformers
<2> After the egress Transformer
Thanks again for your help. :)
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In partial answer to my question, I noticed that Audioferret (http://www.geocities.com/ghaunadaur99/audio/felicia5.html)
placed his 0.01uF caps in parallel with the 0.47uF & 0.1uF caps AFTER the egress transformer.
Given his good results and care, I suspect that this is 'the way' to do it.
Any comments?
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Any comments?
Yes! The Mets are going to take the pennant!!!
Other than that - there is a reason the good lord has given us quick connects (and my favorite - experiment facilitating dpdt switches)... She wants us to experiment, and make our own judgements. I'm assuming you don't have a signal generator and oscilloscope, so your not going to be able to judge an obvious difference under lightly loaded conditions. But as you're building 2 complete Felicias, I'll ask you to build them both ways, and let us know your preference, or whether you think they make any difference at all. :wink:
As an aside, there is a reason I've generally recommended metalized capacitors as opposed to film and foil caps in this application-
1. I'm a cheap SOB
2. Metalized caps are 'self healing' and more resilient. But given the voltage ratings of your foil caps, I'm not concerned over it, especially betwixt and between the 2 transformers where they'll be exposed to 14vac, and a bit more so on the outputs where they'll see your full line voltage. But assuming you fuse the outputs as in the schematic, I wouldn't worry.
But all things being equal (which they never are) film and foils generally outperform metalized caps. One of the most disconcerting things about the Felecia project is the conclusion by me as well as others, that different nominally equivalent caps sound different and that difference can be substantial. This might be obvious to others when caps are used in signal coupling, but to hear those differences so far upstream prior to the powersupply is just damn strange. :scratch:
Another odd observation is that caps and their bypasses should all be oriented the same way with their writing going in the same direction (if they're from the same vendor). It doesn't matter if they're rightside up, or down, just that a grouping be oriented the same way. Those caps are seeing either floating or balanced AC, no ground at all and it shouldn't matter, but it does. Beats the heck outta me....
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I've got a strange question:
I've come across a couple of Step Up/Down transformers from 115V to 230V rated at 500VA.
If I put them a$$ to teakettle as follows:
From Mains -> 110V IN -> 230V OUT --> 230V IN -> 110V OUT with caps parallel caps between, will I:
1) Blow myself up / wreck my caps & light my hair on fire -OR-
2) Have an isolation transformer that might work for an amp with a 420W draw?
Sorry for the notsoschmart questions...
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<1> Between the Transformers
<2> After the egress Transformer
I did both. Maybe I misread the recommendation, but it looked to me like each bundle of caps could use a bypass.
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Occam,
I'm not trying to ignore you...
Sorry about that. Yes, I will build the Felicia both ways and let you know if my ears can pick anything up.
Failing that, I'll put the cats in front of the speakers and see whether they run away at different rates / times with both setups.
I'd love to have a signal gen & scope. I hear you can rig such things up using your PC sound card, but I doubt they have the resolution you might want to quote.
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I've got a strange question:
I've come across a couple of Step Up/Down transformers from 115V to 230V rated at 500VA.
If I put them a$$ to teakettle as follows:
From Mains -> 110V IN -> 230V OUT --> 230V IN -> 110V OUT with caps parallel caps between, will I:
1) Blow myself up / wreck my caps & light my hair on fire -OR-
2) Have an isolation transformer that might work for an amp with a 420W draw?
Sorry for the notsoschmart questions...
Not strange at all, just scary as hell.
NEVER, EVER, take an AC voltage higher than necessary.
1. Double the voltage and quadruple the danger. Its as simple as Ohms law.
2. You CANNOT use those foil caps, but rather X2 (250vac+) or preferably x1(500vac+) caps, or if you really know what you're doing at least 630vdc metalized caps that at least provide self healing capabilities with fusing everywhere.
3. You don't know if those transformers provide limited bandwidth and noise passage. Unless they have either a grounded shield between primary and secondary, or multiple bobbins with adequate 'creepage' (physical separation between primary and secondary), they could well be useless for this application. irrespective of their voltage conversion abilities. Worse yet, they could possibly be autotransformers, Which are often misidentified as voltage conversion transformers, and would be useless and potentially very dangerous in this application.
4. Unless that amp with 420va consumption is a Class A amp with a very, very competently implemented inductor input power supply (as opposed to capacitor input) I can guarantee you that those transformers will saturate. While the va consumption might lead you to think that the current demands wouldn't cause saturation, capacitive input power supplies typically charge with current pulses substantially greater than a simple calculation would indicate. The greater the capacitance, the higher and shorter the pulses.
You've asked a very reasonable question, and I don't mean to 'smack you upside the head', but implementing a Felicia with those intermediate voltages, is at minimum 10x as dangerous as those with <50vac secondary voltages. Please don't.
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Option 1) it is then. :o
Thanks for the warning. I will not attempt this.
Cheers!! :)
I believe I'll try samplesj technique and place a bypass between and after.
So, I'll try it 3 ways, I guess. :wink:
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The Signal trannies are on their way to Montreal, so Matt won't have to do the high voltage dance. :thumb:
Given how well my Felicia worked I suspect you'll be happy with the results. I ultimately ended up using my BPT as it was a bit better but Felicia is killer for the amount of time and $$ invested.
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Thanks a million Mike!!
I can't wait!! :)
Another silly question:
I know for sure that my 2-prong CDP will not reap any benefit whatsoever from Balanced power alone.
However, can I still build the Felicia as a 'Balanced' and plug my CDP into it? -In the event that I get something with a ground I'd like to be 'ready to roll' so to speak.
Thanks. :)
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Felicia, configured to produce balanced power, works just fine for non grounded to mains components. My experience is that that even with mains grounded components, the majority of the benefit is pure power conditioning, and not the cancellation of reactive leakage currents. Anyone can verify this by simply disconnecting the output center-tap ground connection on their Felicia, giving you 'isolated' as opposed to 'technical' power.
Certainly, technical (balanced) power can certainly help with ground related problems, leakage and ground loop caused hum, but that is not a problem for non grounded components.
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Now that I'm finished, I'll change the pins below to reflect what works in my setup.
OK, backtracking to my previous post where I asked for Pin # assignments as they relate to the Signal A41 Series transformers. I will not include the fuses...assume they're there.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4728)
I have found that answering my own questions (with Occam's help!!) and correcting them has been a learning experience. ;)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4715)
Ingress Transformer (i.e. from mains):
Hot Primary goes to Pin 1
Neutral goes to Pin 6
Pins 2 and 5 are tied together to put the Trannie in 'Series' (which also downrates the trannie to ~ 175VA / 2)
Pins 7 and 12 are used to connect to Egress Transformer's Pins 7 and 12. (also the first cap / filter group C1 - C3 go here with labels aligned so that writing is in the same direction)
Pins 8 and 11 are tied together (to complete the circuit).
Egress Transformer (i.e. to equipment):
Pin 7 connects to Ingress Transformer Pin 7
Pin 12 connects to Ingress Transformer Pin 12
Pin 1 is Hot (actually 60V AC)
Pin 6 is Neutral (actually -60V AC) (also the second cap / filter group C5 - C6 go here with labels aligned so that writing is in the same direction)
Pin 5 and Pin 2 are tied together to Earth (0V AC)
Note on Caps:
I didn't include the 0.01uF caps in the above. I would call these caps C4 and/or C7. I bypassed filter group 1 and filter group 2 with these.
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Matt,
You've got is correct, save for -
1. On each of the transformers, pins 8 & 11 are tied together, otherwise you'll lack a completed circuit and no current can flow from the input to the output transformer
2. I get really confused with the phasing from input to output, though I did know off the top of my head a year ago. When you've got it hooked up do the following -
Measure the voltage from the input 'hot' to the output 'hot' (actually +60vac)
Measure the voltage from the input 'neutral' to the output 'neutral' (the -60vac)
If both read 60vac, everything is phased correctly.
If the 'hot' to 'hot' voltage measures 180vac and the 'neutral' to 'neutral' measures 60vac you're 180 degrees out of phase. The reason you don't want this is that in the highly probable event that when you hold one live wire and forget the standard practice of keeping your other hand in your pocket, and you touch the wrong wire or leaking component, it is far preferable to have 60vac running through your body rather than 180vac, though otherwise it will work just fine.
If you're out of phase, simply flip the secondary connections on ONE of the transformers, and remeasure. As the transformers have .25" male 'quick connect' its really a good idea to wire those connections using female .25" female 'quick connects'.
Once you've verified the phasing is correct, make a double check -
Measure the voltage from the input 'hot' to the output 'hot' (actually +60vac)
Measure the voltage from the input 'neutral' to the output 'neutral' (the -60vac)
If both read 60vac, everything is phased correctly.
You should measure 60vac from your output 'hot' to ground.
You should measure 60vac from your output 'neutral' to ground.
You should measure 120vac from your output 'hot' to output 'neutral'.
Please post about your progress and your impressions when Felicia is up and running, powering a component.
I can't post anymore as my wife is in packing mode. She is demanding that I try on various pieces of clothing that she is sure, that although they fit last week, they won't fit now. We'll be in Tuscany for the next week+ and I'll be back on the Sunday following this weekend.
JoshK will be filling in as Moderator of the Lab, and he is quite familiar with Felicia (both technically and Biblically), as we did the initial development together, and the project is named after his wife.
Happy wiring,
Paul
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Hi Occam,
Tuscany, Italy I presume. -Please forgive me but the only thing I seem to know about American geography is that practically any European city is also a town/village/city in some state somewhere too. :wink:
Enjoy the vacation!! Really, though, your wife should be verifying that your clothes still fit AFTER the vacation in Italy!! :icon_twisted:
Thank you so much for your help and patience with this. I wouldn't be able to build without your help!! :D
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Wooohooo!!! Got the trannies today. :D
Our respective national postal services did themselves proud in terms of beating the crap out of them, though. :?
At any rate, they're pretty simple devices and I think the damage isn't anything a pair of pliers can't fix. The rest is cosmetic.
I'll set my Fluke to ohms and test continuity where it should be.
As a bonus, they're pre-jumpered. ;)
Can't wait to get crackin.
As a side note, I'm also looking at replacing the voltage regs in my CDP. Will the Felicia obviate this requirement?
I've got the following:
Digital
U981 031 NJM7815FA I C (REGULATOR +15VDC)
U982 031 NJM7915FA I C (REGULATOR -15VDC)
Analog
U901,931,961 031 SI3050J I C (REGULATOR +5VDC)
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Glad to hear the trannies arrived. Somehow I figured they would air drop them from the plane. :(
Two of them are jumpered, the other two are as they came from the vendor. Check them carefully against Paul's schematics before going to far. :)
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Will do!!
Thank you again for your help!!
I am extremely grateful for yours and Occam's assistance with this!! :)
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Which transformers are now being used for building the Felicia's ? Where might they be purchased ?
Tia
Joey B
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Hi Joey,
That would be the continuing problem for Felicia builders, finding a proper inexpensive tranny. You can try looking on Ebay for Magnetek VPS28-6250's. We used them to build three Felicia's for Natureboy's system with great success. They should go for $10 or less, plus shipping...
Other than that, I recall Occam mentioning some custom spec'd jobbie's he had made but, IIRC, they would run in the $40 range, too $$$ to conform to the intent of the project really. Occam may be able to add something once he returns from his bourgeois truffle hunting expedition...
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So, I made it.
I'll correct pin-outs from last post (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18443.msg287280#msg287280) soon. OK. This is done.
Here are the pix:
- 1st Filter Group. (18uF Solen Polyprop. 400V, 0.47 Solen Film & Foil 630V, 0.1 uF Solen Film & Foil 630V, 0.01 uF Solen Film & Foil 1200V)
- At work, they ripped out satellite ant. from roof. All this coax with 10 Guage solid copper core, what's a guy to do?
(http://static.flickr.com/112/276523481_60ce8efc08.jpg?v=0)
- 2nd Filter Group. (0.47 Solen Film & Foil 630V, 0.1 uF Solen Film & Foil 630V, 0.01 uF Solen Film & Foil 1200V)
- F2 & F3 2A 250VAC Fast blow.
- Soldered ground wire directly to ground pin on back of Hubbell inlet.
- Soldered everything else (except the leads to panel meter) because solder is fun.
(http://static.flickr.com/112/276518823_d997526cf4.jpg?v=0)
- Front of unit. Simpson panel meter 600 VAC is due to be replaced by Burlington 90 - 130 VAC RMS panel meter.
(http://static.flickr.com/94/276518816_8c4f2284e9.jpg?v=0)
- Front & Side & Top (for the geometry challenged :wink: )
(http://static.flickr.com/93/276518817_6cbe8b419b.jpg?v=0)
- Front & Top (black is reflected in varnish at bottom)
(http://static.flickr.com/119/276518810_5ca2ec3753.jpg?v=0)
- I used Brazillian Cashew hardwood. I wish the photos did this wood justice!!
(http://static.flickr.com/111/276518808_54af11b4d4.jpg?v=0)
- Back. IEC Inlet (Mains In), 250V 1A "Fast-Blow" fuse. [wouldn't that make a great drivethru name?]
- Hubbell Inlet (to Source)
(http://static.flickr.com/89/276518809_f9d81a092a.jpg?v=0)
Comments & Observations:
- The back and bottom are screwed & glued (oh yes, the irony is not lost on me) together in an 'L' pattern [1]. The front, top and sides are glued [2]. This proved easiest for pre-mounting the bits. Then the pieces [1] and [2] are screwed together via 6 screws in the back and four screws from the bottom (the three at bottom you see here are permanently glued to piece [1]). I used particle board hi-low thread screws and some handsoap (helps to keep from snapping screw heads).
- Sounds pretty good. I find there's more defined silences between sounds.
- Highs are clearer, for sure.
- Bass seemed wussy at first. Then I tried it with some electronic music that I know to have bass. No problems there. It's just that it don't sound like railway cars going bump in the night when somebody plays cello anymore.
- I really had fun throwing this together. I am most deeply grateful to Occam and mgalusha and others on this site for being so friendly towards newbies and for getting me exactly where I needed to be. (with minimal shock therapy and financial outlay)
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Sweet Ozone! Love that retro volt meter too, reminds me of JoshK's early version of his UcD amps 8)
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Fantastic looking! Finally a Felicia that lives up to my wife's name. I love the hardwood look and the meter. Like Gordy says, I used meters on the front of one of my UcD amps and have a couple other projects in the works with meter use. I just like 'em.
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NOTE: I forgot to thank audioferret who got me started on this with his post over on diyAudio (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70015&highlight=felicia)
Also, thanks for your feedback guys!! :D
I'm really happy that I've not insulted your wife's good name!! ;)
I've posted over on DIYHiFi (http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=816) with my silly question about whether it's necessary to modify / improve the voltage regulation in my Rotel RCD-02 now that I'm using a Felicia conditioner.
If I've understood well, local decoupling and bandwidth requirements make it necessary to have good voltage regulation. This is despite the conditioned power. Then the conversation turned into ferrite beads where I wouldn't know what size or type or where to place...so I got a little lost.
Does anybody know if I've understood well?
I'm not sure if I should put this in a new thread or not... On one hand this is related to the Felica conditioner and on the other I'm trying to weasel some good advice on what next to do with my CDP source.
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Hey Matt,
I'm back from Tuscany..... and to answer your question, no, good power conditioning does not obviate the need for good regulators in the fed components. Ideally, good regulation within a component should obviate the need for good powerconditioning. But this is not the best of all possible worlds, and I've yet to encounter a mains powered component with whatever regulation that does not benefit from good power conditioning. If one were to start with a clean slate, one could design components with built in power conditioning prior to the ps. Good luck in finding them.
With regards to the DiyHiFi thread, listen to Jocko, he knows what he is talking about. The comments about ferrites are specific to ps regulation and you'd be best served (IMO) by keeping that discussion over on DiyHiFi.
EDIT - Carlos' comment was also spot on although cryptic. His comment was about the cmc in front of the actual power supply in your cd player which you posted on your diyHiFi thread. Iff'n the dumbass who designed your cd player had actually put the appropriate caps before and after the cmc (which CarlosFM referred to as the 'inductor'), it would have accomplished much (most??) of what the Felicia should provide.
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I'm wondering, can the Felicia balanced powerconditioner useing transformers like the Signal A41-175-36 be used with a low power SET amp that puts out about 2 watts?
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BRN,
I don't know the specifics of your SET amp, but the Felicia has successfully powered a Baby Sophia, as well as other low powers SET amps. Your use of a A41-175-36s, as opposed to the A41-175-28s would be more efficient with slightly lower losses, so I'd respond with a qualified yes, if the total draw was less than about 35-45va.
Regards,
Paul
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I am very interested in this idea for line filtering. Does anyone in the Southern MD, Northern VA or DC area have a Felicia BPT setup that I can make measurements on with my Fluke 43B Power Line analyzer? Can also use CLIOwin to measure the frequency response of the system.
I tried building an isolation transformer, similar to one I read about using two RS 120VAC to 25.2VAC, 75VA, E-I core units and a Solen 3.3uF/400VDC cap. Already had most of the parts on-hand. The RS transformer's secondary went into saturation without any load and just the capacitor. Looks like a L-C resonance phenomena.
Have started a PSPICE model of the system, but it is very limited. Will try measuring the RS transformers with CLIOwin to get the inductance parameters for PSPICE.
Any feedback greatly appreciated.
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Hal - The transformers going into saturation with a 3uf cap as the 'betwixt and between' cap is very strange.... The obvious follow up question is whats happening when you hook the secondarys back to back with no caps across the 25.2v secondaries, and are you sure you've hooked the cascaded transformers secondary to secondary?
I've generally found that when I get anomalous results, I find I've done something silly, which unfortunately, I find happens all too often.
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Occam- I tried just the two transformers back to back without the 3.3uF cap, and the waveform looked like the input. No additional distortion was measured. I checked to make sure that they were secondary to secondary. The color codes are different for primary and secondary. I also checked the output voltage level matching of each transformer and they were within 0.01VAC on the secondaries.
Once the cap went across the secondaries, the distortion level increased about 50% over the standard line. Core saturation is about the only thing that can explain this that I know.
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Hi Occam,
First let me apologize for spamming ur PM :lol:
A few questions that have been bugging me:
As i mentioned before i'm from Singapore and the voltage here run at 230v - 240v hot.
1) You mention several times in ur threads, that we (e dudes living 240v countries) don't need to step down but run it straight thru? I presume you're talking about using the A41-X-230 series where the pri and sec can run at 230v? Is there any downside for doing this or would u rather have the voltage step down to 15v-25v and stepping back up again?
2) Alot of mentions of Jantzen caps and Auricaps. Anyone tried other varieties from BG, Murdorf, Rubycon etc?
Many thanks!
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Hello Exxtreme,
And welcome to AudioCircle.
Yes, building a Felicia for 240vac isn't any more difficult than building one of 120vac. Look at the Felica 'sticky' -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441.0
While the schematic is labeled 'unbalanced 120vac in' and the output is labeled 'Balanced 120vac output', the schematic would be exactly the same for 230-240vac operation, fed 240vac at the input, it gives you balanced and filtered 240vac at the output. (assuming the transformers are appropriately rated for voltage)
As you mention, one could alternatively use a non stepdown transformer for this purpose. You wouldn't have to reverse the output transformer. You could use A41-175-230 taking 230 in producing 230 out, put capacitors across that output and cascade to another A41-175-230, ground the center tap, and you get balanced output appropriate for your country. The values of the 'across the line' capacitors would have to be adjusted for the inductive characteristics of the transformer, as would the voltage rating. The last point is very important.
But it is important to note that the value of this project revolved around the fact that the transformers were available for less than $10 each. So for around $40+- one could build a very, very good balancing power conditioner. The fact that it was constrained in power, large and bulky, was offset by its cost and performance.
The equation changes radically when you have to start paying 'retail' for your transformers IMO, at that point, non-transformer based solutions become attractive, as do non DIY retail products.
As to appropriate capacitors for any powerconditioner - They MUST be metalized film capacitors. No electrolytics, even Black Gates; they're not appropriate. Ideally, they should be X2 certified to be used across a mains voltage, to 'guarantee' that they will fail either completely open, or completely shorted (so that the mains breaker will trip). Yes, there are X2 ceramic caps, and IMO, they 'sound' horrible. I don't know why. If you choose not to use X2 caps, as I do, you must fuse each Felicia as shown with fuses appropriate for the component to be powered. I use 600vdc rated Auricaps across 120vac because they 'sound' better than X2 caps, but only with appropriate fusing. Audience recommends 1200vdc Auricaps for use on 230vac. It starts to get expensive. Those same 'rules of thumb' should also be applied to other film caps, Mundorf, Audyn, SCR, Bennic, etc...., if not rated for mains use.
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Hi Occam,
Thanks for ur reply. Sure cleared up alot of qns that i had in mind. Hope this info help the ppl living the 230v countries as well. In Singapore, its kind of weird cause we have a lot of varieties components available, trans, caps, resistors, etc, but ready-made retail balanced power conditioner cost a whipping bomb; almost in the range of 2-3k (USD). Last i check the A41-175-230 cost ard $20-30 (USD) here.
Two quick qns:
1) For the fuses, at output section, i take that for 230v the appropriate fuse would be roughly 0.7-0.8A? Which is the max amp draw out of a A41-175-230 at 230v. Or should i be lowing it?
2) I'm attempting to power a valve amp off (300b) which rates about 200-230W. Any constraints with that? Or anyone ever tried to power such a thing off this conditioner? My only worry is that the above trans is insufficient to power such a load.
Once again thanks!
Edited: There isn't 18uF for Auricaps at 1500V for C1. Any advice what others could possible fit here?
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Exxtreme,
The fusing of a Felicia conditioner should be the same fuses as those in the component to be powered.
A transformer rated for 175va is no going to be sufficient to power an amp drawing 280 watts. You can check the actual power consumption with instrumentation like this -
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=L61AQ&menu=0&WorldSearch=Y&doy=7m1&ShowPics=true&Stock=2&SD=true
The Felicia project using the specified surplus transformers was intended for powering source components drawing 50watts maximum. This was due to the voltage drops associated with using transformers back to back. Using a non stepdown transformer eliminates this specific limitation, but you still would want to operate any transformer well below its maximum rms VA rating for powerconditioning use.
Unless you're able to source large transformers 500va+, inexpensively (meaning surplus), you should consider non-transformer, inductively based conditioners -
http://www.triode-systems.com/modules/wfsection/viewarticles.php?category=1
I have built similar conditioners (in process), but I can't offer any specific advise regarding the above project. Non transformer based, inductive/capacitive filters are easier to build successfully for your higher mains voltages than in the States, as your currents are proportionately lower.
Regards,
Paul
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Thanks Paul. Guess i ran the conditioner for my CD and pre for now.
As i stated my previous post, Auricaps dun have 18uf. Would u recommend i parallel them? Or easier to just step down the voltages.
As for my amp, going to grab one of these ampere meter off my company and monitor it peak value.
Edited: Revised my statement. Off to grab some generic cap from some motors and try them out. :lol: Hopefully i dun blow something up...
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Extreme,
Excellent edit!!! If you're looking for large capacitance to put across an AC line, motor run caps are excellent choices for their typically built in protection, and designed specifically for across the line use. Please do not use caps for 'motor start' as they're often electrolyics and inappropriate for your use.
Note that the 18uf capacitance was specified for use with those surplus Signal A41-175-28 transformers, used back to back. If this is your intent, as the 18uf cap would be used across 28vac, the voltage rating of the capacitor can be relaxed substantially. I use Jantzen 400vdc rated caps for this, as they sound very, very good, and they're available inexpensively in the States from PartsExpress.com . Solen/SCR 400v also work very well, as do Bennics, though not as well as Jantzens and Auricaps. Using Auricaps or Mundorfs in this role would be very expensive. If you're planning on using a non stepdown transformer, those caps are going to be subjected to full mains voltages. if you choose to, against all rational advice, to use caps that are not X rated appropriately or motor run caps minimally rated at or above the Vac to be used at, (I do for sonic reasons), you need high voltage rated caps, typically 600vdc+ for use on 120vac and 1200vdc+ for 240vac, and you must fuse appropriated as shown in the schematic. Also note that 18uf was specific for the original transformers. Using other transformers, or different voltage secondaries, would call for resizing the capacitors, which I can't help you with other than advising it will take substantial experimentation.
Regards,
Paul
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Paul,
Thanks for ur prompt response. I was pretty much ready to go with the A41-175-230 straight thru but after much consideration, the first 3 caps will be a bumper for cost. There are plenty of 400vda motor caps here. My current plan is to go with the step down A41-175-28 back to back with the current advised caps. Also stepping down the voltage will give more choice for the first 3 caps and room to experiment. Finding caps that are rated 1200vdc+ is gg to put a hole in anyone wallet... off shopping i go.
Thanks!
Mark
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One quickie question, anyone tried to parallel both the output of the power conditioner before? Might be dumb, but reasonable question as in theory it shares the load.
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Exxtreme,
You only need those high voltage capacitor ratings on caps that are used accross the full AC mains voltage unless they are 'X' or 'Y' rated. Properly rated caps -
http://www.justradios.com/safetytips.html
X2 and Y2 rated caps are rated to operate accross AC mains voltages of up to 275VAC, and their failure modes are 'known'. An X cap is expected to fail either full open (removing it from the circuit) or dead short (tripping your mains fuse/breaker). Protected motor run caps can also be used.
Any other cap, regardless of their voltage rating, or your assumptions about its safety, should be fused when used on mains voltages 'accross the line', X, or 'to ground', Y. This includes the (in)famous "Auricap Tweak".
As to paralleling transformer's output.... The variability in windings generally preclude this unless 'load balancing center tapped chokes' [this is an old technique from radio amatuers used when surplus 'iron' was plentiful and cheap] are used. Alternatively, if you've precision wound bifilar secondaries, windings from each can be paralleled. But that implies custom wound transformers, and if you were commissioning that, you simply have them make a bigger transformer.
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Any other cap, regardless of their voltage rating, or your assumptions about its safety, should be fused when used on mains voltages 'accross the line', X, or 'to ground', Y. This includes the (in)famous "Auricap Tweak".
Dang! I better get working on putting a fuse in the box I built. Do you use a slow-blow fuse rated for the amperage (in my case, 20 Amps)? Wouldn't the breaker also trip if the cap fails? (In my situation, I have about 6 feet of wire going from my circuit breakers directly to my box, with the Auricap tweak and four outlets. My entire system, save one sub, is run using that box. This is a single 20 amp circuit.)
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Bob,
The Felicia is designed to power one component, about 60watts max. It can be viewed as a powercord with built in conditioning, and I actually build mine as that. I take a Volex powercord, cut it in half, and wire the Felicia in the middle. The fusing should be exactly that of the component being powered, not the amperage rating of the line powering it. Because non X or Y rated caps have a 'via Standards' possibility of partially failing, neither completely open or completely short, we fuse with same value as the components fusing for 2 reasons -
1. A partially failed cap can draw less than the mains breaker and potentially cause a fire, but probably more than the 1amp (max) fuse used Felicia with its intended transformer.
2. If there is a internal fault in the component being powered, connecting 'neutral' to the chassis, that component might well not fuse the heretofore 'neutral' line, and this line now has 60VAC (in N.A.). If the fault is on that 'neutral' line, we want to provide fusing via Felicia.
Regards,
Paul
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Thanks, Paul. What about the tweak where you use the Auricap from hot to neutral of (across?) an outlet? That's what I was specifically referring to.
The Felicia sounds like a great idea, but I just haven't had time to create one. I will reread this entire thread before doing so, however. The "power cord with built in conditioning" is an excellent idea. I could power my transport with one, my preamp with one, maybe the power supply for my modded SB with one, etc.
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Bob,
Re: the 'Auricap Tweak', we've been down that road before -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24939.msg221401#msg221401
Well, I'll state up front that I think Auricaps do an excellent subjective job as accross the line caps. As to why they sound better than my favorite real X2 qualified cap, the Wima MP3X2, I don't have a clue. It might well be the goober dust.
That being said, I don't see any reason for inviting trouble, from either a legal or electical perspective. If you do have a fire, the insurance adjuster is going to be interested in your DIY hotbox, as its obviously going to look like a DIY project. If they open it up, and see a cap that isn't X2 certified, and its obviously damaged (it doesn't matter whether it was the cause of the fire, just that it appears damaged), you've just given your insurance company an excuse not to pay the claim. And Lord help you if someone was hurt (or worse) in the fire. I'm certainly no lawyer, but I've dealt with an insurance adjuster in the recent past as a result of flooding due to a frozen pipe, and simply say that they're paid to be pricks. (apologies to any insurance adjusters out there, I know you're just doing you job)
From an electrical perspective, I'd suggest you put whatever non-X2 caps behind fuse/breaker of whatever component has the smallest fuse. (and prefferably that component's switch, so that when turned off, its out of the picture). Ignoring the minimal inductance of your powercords, the cap is accross the line at the mains circuit level, providing 'cleanup' for all components plugged into that mains circuit. Installing caps on different outlets without intervening inductive components on the same mains circuit, is really the same as putting them all one the same outlet, save for the fact that its easier to mount multiple components in multiple places.
(the Audience Adept has intervening inductive components in the form of CMCs, common mode chokes isolating each outlet).
The reason I suggest this is the danger for ANY cap is not if it fails as a direct short or open. In the former, the mains circuit breaker blows, and in the later, the cap is out of the circuit. The danger is a leaking partial short, which is exactly what real X caps are 'guaranteed' NOT to do. This is going to heat the cap, and possibly cause a fire...... but possibly not cause your 15/20amp mains breaker to trip. But if its behind the 1/4-1 amp fuse of your DVD player (or Felicia or whatever) chances are that fuse will blow before that cap gets hot enough to cause a fire. And besides, the adjuster is far less likely to find that non-X rated cap if its buried inside a commercial component.
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Hi Paul,
Fully understood. Because if i were to step down the voltage, C1-3 would be able to have a much lower voltage requirement compared to 230v straight. Cheaper and more choices. C5-6 still run at full AC voltage so no choice with these two buggers. BTW that page link was very informative. Thanks!
By running it at 60watts, u giving a headroom for safety i suppose? Because a A41 series trans runs approximately 174 watts max. (based on 230v 0.76A). FYI i alr placed an order for a few pieces of A41-28-175. Oh the joy! :D
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Exxtreme,
The downrating of 60watts maximum from the 175va ratings of the 2 cascaded transformers is an issue of transformer regulation. Because one of the transformers is hooked up 'arse backwards', you'll find that the output voltage falls with increasing loads, more so than with transformers hooked up normally.
You might find that when fed 230vac from the wall, when drawing 60watts, the output voltage from Felicia is 200vac, or less, or more..... Somewhere within this morass of a thread, a number of folks have posted their measured results,..
As to whether this will work, that would depend the implementation of the actual components to be powered. Some components with low voltage shutdown circuitry will do just that. I'd like to be able to give you a more definitive answer, but I've not implemented or measured 230vac Felicias.
Regards,
Paul
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Thanks for clearing that up. I'll try and see if there is too much drop in voltage.
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I was going to build this project last winter, ordered the caps, fuses and such, but MPJA was out of the transformers. I had since forgotten about it but ran across those parts yesterday and ordered the transformers again from MPJA and they are on their way. The bad thing about MPJA is the shipping, they are charging me nearly 20 dollars for Priority Mail !!!!!
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I put together, quickly, my Felecia today. A bad ground will sure cause a lot of bad measurements !!!! Now all is correct and I'm going to do some listening to see if I can hear the difference. This has been fun relearning my electronics, college educated but not used in many years, what is not used is forgotten.
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Congratulations sl_1800! Care to share which caps you used and where? Please get back with your listening impressions, thanks!
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Not a big fan of shoebox/wood box installations, I chose to make use of a dead UPS. These can be had for peanuts and already have provisions for power in/out. I decided to upgrade the caps to Auricaps. I also upgraded the receptacle to a Hubbell HG one.
Transformer on the left is the input trannie...
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/DonnieW/Misc/Felicia_Top.jpg)
Only the Hubbell (beige) receptacle is active...
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/DonnieW/Misc/Felicia_Side.jpg)
That's the frontside of what used to be an APC 700 SmartUPS...
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/DonnieW/Misc/Felicia_APC.jpg)
Here's a close-up of a really important part - the fuse. There's actually three, as recommended. One on the hot-in and one each on the two outputs (hot and neutral)...
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/DonnieW/Misc/Felicia_Fuse.jpg)
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sounds like i need to resize the transformers (they call em chokes in the uk, VAGUELY remember that stuff) (and therefore resize everytning) . I got alot of reading to do here, but just an "early warning" - and a buddy Russ who has forgotten more about AC and HIFI than i'll EVER know!!
here's what russ told me - i've yet to decipher it completely but i'm close!!
If you can afford it get one big ass balanced power transformer for all the analog gear. I think you amp’s current draw will be too high to allow the use of Jon’s filter in front of the transformer but if you can use it, so much the better. Then for each and every piece of digital gear (or anything that has a switching power supply like the TV), use separate individual isolation transformers. Those rat shack trannys are quite wimpy. I use ones made by signal. I do use the back to back setup but I don’t think it is necessary and it does more than double the cost. But you do want separate individual ones. I use one balanced power transformer that in turn feeds all the individual trannys for digital (but I don’t think this is required either). Use Jon’s filter ahead of each digital transformer. So if you have a CD, DVD, DAC, TV, etc…..you will need several transformers.
For the balanced power I use standard 480/240 by 240/120 single phase transformers. Wire the primary for 480 but feed it 240. Wire the secondary for 240 and ground the X2/X3 center tap point. This will give you 60-0-60VAC out. The transformer will be de-rated by 50% when wired this way and I suggest twice the volt amps required. So the transformer needs to be four times the actual load. It really is best to use 240VAC from the wall as that is already balanced power.
but i'll get back to yall. I'm a believer in power conditioning too, i HEARD it first hand - amazing!!
Mike
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Yeah this baby takes 540VA at rest and 1140VA max. That's OK, my eye-opening experience was when the CD player (music hall) was powered by a JR filter. So guess I'll be shooting for these for everything BUT the amp until i go ALL tube or brainstorm it with my techie buddy Russ.
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An acquaintance and I recently discussed the Felicia BPC and he was telling me that it would be useful even without grounding. I was under the impression that without grounding the benefits would not be realized. What's the deal? Thanks!
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Hey Christopher,
Long time no hear.....
Yes, I'd agree with your friend. The principal benefit of the Felicia conditioner, like the Jon Risch SQ&D Iso Trans project upon which the Felicia was based -
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tweaks&m=43988
is power conditioning. Specifically, its very effective at eliminating differential (transverse) mode noise, in addition to attenuating the easier to deal with common mode noise.
The benefits of making the conditioner provide balanced (technical) power are real for components that have a grounded chassis (they're also there for certain other components without 3 prong grounded plugs whose chassis are grounded to other components via various circuitous routes). Specifically, that benefit is minimization of reactive leakage currents to the chassis which causes noise, and in its most extreme form, ground loop hum.
The rational behind Felicia was the availability of those surplus $10 Signal A41 175va transformers which made the construction of a balanced conditioner for source components inexpensive and straightforward, albeit bulky.
Very good conditioners can be constructed based upon either transformers or inductors, with both working in conjunction with capacitors.
FWIW,
Paul
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Hey, I've listened to my dads MIT z-cords, very simple power cords with inline filters, I have to say that it all sounded so much better with these hooked up to the trends ta-10 and the SB !
Would this project be doable for a DIY NOOB like me? I live in the Netherlands so power is 240 v here.... If not, can anyone recommend some cheap balanced power conditioners, supplies ?
Thanks
Robert
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if one were to search, google is your friend, one might find discussion where folks have sketched out a pretty good idea of what the mit chords were doing. you could give it a shot and compare to the real thing.
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Or you could do a search here for "Felix" and build a very nice in-line conditioner for a power cord. Much smaller, lighter and less expensive than the Felicia's.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=7889)
li'l Felix in a custom RhatShaque enclosure with custom cable ties on the inside and outside securing a halved Volex 17604 powercord. Tres elegant!
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=37673.msg341987#msg341987
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(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3136/amppstrannykp9.jpg)
The above is the mains input, voltage selector switch and power supply transformer of the Rythmik Audio subwoofer amplifier, which can be used at either 110-120 or 220-240VAC. The VA rating of this transformer depends on the particular model, but mine (350W) is rated at 700VA. Given the dual 110V primary windings of this tranny, rather than running the amplifier off a scaled-up conventional Felicia, it seems to me that it would make sense to eliminate one of the trannies in the Felicia . . .
I think there would be pluses and minuses versus running off a conventional Felicia. On the one hand, since every transformer has a bit of mechanical self-noise and power losses as heat, eliminating one hefty transformer from the picture obviously has some benefits in that dept.
On the other hand, I think one of the benefits of preventing any noise from escaping *out* to the mains might be reduced or lost if one of the transformers was eliminated.
I've got transformers coming out the ears so I could use more if there are genuine benefits, but there's no point in using more trannies just for the sake of using 'em . . .
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
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Hi Christopher,
Given that you're in Japan, are any of your outlets grounded? If not, and none of your components have their chassis connected to a mains ground, you don't have the potential problem of reactive leakage to your chassis inducing noise/hum into your system, and the incremental benefits of balanced mains, as opposed to simply configuring you transformers for isolation, are moot.
When I've powered full range poweramps off transformers, the results have allways been mixed, even when using a massive transformer like a 7kva Signal DU7. The bass has been the the area of greatest improvement, with better definition, but the midrange has generally lost a certain sumth'n, sumth'n. But as you're talking about powering a sub, and you have the transformers, I'd say give it a try.
The advantage of cascading transformers is generally increased common mode noise attenuation, and with the addition of those 'betwixt and between' caps, additional transverse/differential mode noise attenuation. (and in the case of the Felicia project, it was using those low cost, surplus 28v secondary transformers arse to arse to get an balanced isolation transformer). As you know that your sub already has a transformer, I'd suggest you start with one isolation transformer, and play with appropriate additional caps 'betwixt and between', and make a judgement as to whether it offers a subjective improvement. If a single additional transformer doesn't offer worthwhile improvements, I doubt whether an additional cascaded transformer would improve the situation. If the single additional transformer does offer significant improvements, then you can decide if you want to add the hassle of another....
FWIW,
Paul
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Thanks, Paul, for your kind reply. At present I have two areas with grounded outlets in my Japanese house: in the kitchen and in the clothes washing area. And even then not all the outlets are grounded.
I have been so busy with work that my efforts to clean up my house's power supply problems have been put on the back burner, but essentially I am still where I was last time I was posting regularly in this thread --
My house's mains supply tends to be noisy, with appliances in the house often disturbing each other, and problems seemingly originating from outside the house affecting inside the house. It is hard to prove, but I think various computer problems and (what seem to me to be) premature deaths of various appliances are connected with the poor quality of the electricity. In addition to that I get funky ground loop problems with certain pieces of AV equipment that I'd like to use together.
I have been thinking of having a separate circuit installed off the main breaker box just for my audio equipment, and maybe one line for my main computer too, and I just assumed that I ought to install and use ground wires with them.
But let me ask you, from the perspective of audio, is grounding desirable, or does it depend on circumstances? Although my outlets are all two-prong only, and I don't have ground wires hooked up, I find it funny that can hear a hum that sounds like a ground loop. However, testing the equipment on some of the few grounded outlets in my house didn't make any difference in that regard. It even occurs to me that the limited grounding my house does have may be pretty substandard. Legendary Japanese quality does not extend to their home construction.
Basically my thinking is that I would try to have balanced power or at least isolation transformers for significant pieces of electrical equipment throughout my house (significant either as sources of noise or as devices that need to be protected from noise), and that perhaps I should try to establish a "technical ground" for my audio equipment. As you know I have amassed quite a few trannies of various types that will let me do that.
In any case, doing things in incremental steps would seem to be the best way to go. If I get to a point where all my problems disappear, I won't do anything more . . . I won't even breathe . . . :-)
By the way, thanks for your reply to this earlier post:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=23874.msg211399#msg211399
I either failed to notice that or completely forgot about it. I have a good use in mind for that trannie . . .
When I actually do some of this stuff rather than beating around the bush I will definitely document each stage properly and put it online for others to benefit from. And when I do, I'll probably seek your opinion as to the appropriateness of the content and my presentation . . . don't want to see anyone zapping himself over this sort of stuff . . . least of all me . . .
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Thanks a lot to Occam and all that gave me help! Some photos of it. Finished my power cond and has been running for 3 mths now so the photos are a bit overdue :P
Photos now unavailable.
FYI using Solen cap, not the best choice as they are not self healing i think. But works :) Don't try without fuses.
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Wow! DonnieW's and Exxtreme's implementation of their Felicias makes me wish my own build skills were better. :( Very, very well done!
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In addition to a few conventional Felicia units, I am planning a Feliciazilla for my three power amplifiers.
Would there be any serious drawbacks to having a distance of about 3m between the "feeding" transformer (1:1, 2kva) and the output side balancing transformers? The "feeding" transformer is 28cm (11 inches) tall, and I'd like to have it out of sight in one corner of the room, hard-wired into the wall.
The balancing transformers on the output side are all less than half the height of the "feeding" transformer, and will fit nicely in my equipment rack. The whole thing would have much better WAF if I could have the two halves of the Feliciazilla separated by 3m.
Alternately, I also have another candidate "feeding" transformer that would fit nicely in my equipment rack too, but it is of lower quality than the big one that won't fit.
If I have a run of 3m of cable between the two halves of the Felicia, what precautions (if any) are called for?
THANKS!
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Christopher - As you're dealing with isolating/balancing transformers, why not start with the lesser height balancing transformer first, and feed it your mains power directly. Then, If you find it does not constrain dynamics and provides other benefits, you could then experiment with that isolating transformer feeding it. Start simple, and get more complicated only if it provides incremental benefits. As you're using ungrounded mains as per your electrical codes, use a twisted pair or star-quad configured cords (due to their higher capacitance, low inductance design, as well as their ability to 'reject' some external noise). Connect any 'betwixt and between' X caps at the load end.
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(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4500/switchabletg0.jpg)
The above image is from a Japanese DIYer. I pasted English translations over his labels in the image. Here is my translation of his explanation:
"Ground polarity discriminating power supply transformer"
Without turning off the connected equipment, the power supply polarity can be freely switched among normal phase (voltage relative to GND: 0V - 100V), reverse phase (voltage relative to GND: 100V - 0V), balanced (voltage relative to GND: 50V - 50V), and floating (voltage relative to GND: indeterminate). Because the power is not turned off, the effect on the sound of instantaneous changes in earth polarity can be easily discriminated with minimal effort. The unit is built around a 1:1 isolation transformer with electrostatic shielding. The input is 100VAC and the output is 100VAC/2.5A (continuous). The unit can safely tolerate short-term peak current draws of up to 5A/500VA. At the heart of the unit is a high quality dual-wound power supply transformer taken from a Kenwood L-08M power amplifier, which in its day was a fairly high-end piece of equipment. As a noise-cut transformer, it can prevent common-mode high-frequency noise and power supply noise, and therefore it is appropriate not only for testing but also for use on a permanent basis, as long as the power draw of the attached equipment does not exceed the transformer's rated capacity. It has a 5A fuse. The box measures 20cm x 20cm x 10cm and weighs 6kg. (Most of the weight is in the transformer.)
Here is another photo:
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7655/cya10366img600x45011761ak2.jpg)
I'm wondering if it wouldn't be possible to make a Felicia unit that functions along these lines. I'd really like to build one . . . any advice or help would be appreciated!
Thanks!
Chris
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Christopher,
Yes, it would be straightforward to wire a Felicia as above -
1. The 'normal', 'reverse' phase switch(pink) would be configured as below (though I don't know whether it applies to the output or input)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=4752)
2. The (baby blue) switch for output configuration would use a spdt, center off, switch, assuming your output is 'center tapped' hooked up as follows -
a. In the up position, ground, the green terminal, is connected via the switch to the center tap giving balanced/technical power.
b. In the center (no connection) the ground is hooked up to nothing for floating/isolated power
c. In the down position, the ground is hooked up to the 'bottom' of the output winding, re-bonding neutral to ground.
3. The yellow switch is an spst switch acting on the input. In the up position it connects the ground (green terminal) to nothing. In the down position it connects (re-bonds) that ground terminal to the input wiring's neutral. This, IMO, is unwise. If your outlet is miswired, its going to connect hot to ground, and will (hopefully) simply trip your that circuits fuse/breaker. If it is connected properly, it will re-bond neutral to ground, which is what neutral was set to in the first place. It may potentially cause a 'ground' loop.
You MUST fuse both inputs and output of both lines appropriately, 'hot' and 'neutral' (or fuse the inputs and put a GFCI on the output) of this unit, if you want a modicum of safety.
Folks, please realize that Christopher is in Japan, where normal mains sockets do not have safety grounds. In order to generate balanced power, one must have an external ground. Though for the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone with (code specified) no safety grounded mains would want to add such.
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I just asked the fellow who made the unit shown about the possibility of an accident with the yellow switch in the bottom position and he agreed it is a definite possibility, either through improper wiring of the outlet or even someone misconnecting an extension cord. He said that he never plugs it into an unknown outlet without checking the outlet's polarity first. If I ever implement such a "feature", I will definitely think carefully about how to implement it in such a way as to minimize the likelihood of an accident.
Folks, please realize that Christopher is in Japan, where normal mains sockets do not have safety grounds. In order to generate balanced power, one must have an external ground. Though for the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone with (code specified) no safety grounded mains would want to add such.
Well, I'm just so frustrated at the problems I have experienced over the years here that seem to me to be caused by lousy electricity. As much as possible, I'm going to follow your advice to start small and to do things incrementally, and I hope I'll have the sense to stop after I have realized the desired improvements and am no longer seeing additional returns from additional measures.
And then I'll write about my experiences in English and Japanese, post it online, get rid of the components I found have no need for, and live happily ever after . . .
Thanks for all your help.
Chris
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Is there a current preferred transformer as of April 2007?
I really admire the frugality displayed. :)
Doug
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Doug,
Sadly no. The Signal a41s do come up on Ebay with some frequency. In ebay do a search on
"signal transformer a41*"
and you'll see whats available. You want them that are A41-175-xx, where xx indicates the secondary voltage, preferably 24 or above.
5 A41-175-28 transformers went for about $21 within the last few weeks.
Frankly, given the bulk and limitations as to what Felicia can power, I've moved on to CMC filters flanked by X caps, which are far smaller, can power substantially larger current draws, inexpensive to build and IMO provide equivalent, if not better, performance. There is a picture of li'l Felix on the previous page and a link that gives the components.
Regards,
Paul
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NEW (not pulled) Signal A41-175-28 transformers are being offered by Sarah Pritchard in Tucson Arizona for $5.50 each plus freight.
Sarah Pritchard's email:
sarah_8151 [at] yahoo [dot] com
You can check her feedback:
http://myworld.ebay.com/sarahp2768 (http://myworld.ebay.com/sarahp2768)
As of this writing, she has about 60 units available. At these prices for brand new, unused trannies, I expect they'll move quickly.
Best regards,
Chris Witmer
Tokyo
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has anyone tried or considered using the signal M4L series??
I know you cannot get balanced power out, but would the same Felicia secondary filter network be effective for
these transformers.
I got 2 really cheap;
a -1 and -3 series for my line level gear.
I have a custom built 240/120 2.5 kva power unit that I use for my amps now and have filtered them with a 10uf/.47 uf combo. on the secondary side.
I'm trying to decided what would be best combination? my 2.5 with several filtered M4L's to isolate each piece of gear or ???
All my amps will be run off 240 now!
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If you flip the M4L-3 around, you can get balanced power from it, since it has dual primaries. Since the transformer is designed with regulation in mind, flipping it around will affect the voltage output from the other side. (It will tend to be lower than what you would normally expect to get.) That may or may not be a problem, depending on your equipment.
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Frankly, given the bulk and limitations as to what Felicia can power, I've moved on to CMC filters flanked by X caps, which are far smaller, can power substantially larger current draws, inexpensive to build and IMO provide equivalent, if not better, performance. There is a picture of li'l Felix on the previous page and a link that gives the components.
Paul,
The li'l Felix sounds like it is just what I'm looking to use in my system. Reading through your posts you recommend the JW Miller CMC 8120 flanked with X rated caps on either side. What value caps do you find work the best? Also, would it be a good idea to use a dedicated li'l Felix for each component considering the cost? I want to use it with my 2A3 SET amps, subs, and SB.
Thanks,
Brad
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Hello Brad,
I've built several Felix's now and have used various mixes of everything from .01uF up to 2.2uF. In my location and with my equipment, I'm opting to go with .01, .1 and 1.0 from here on but, they are so inexpensive, buy a clutch or three of each and see what works for you.
As for multiple Felix's, that's what I'm doing! I've a 5a version for my digital equipment and a big amp version for tuner, pre and amps.
While trying to isolate an especially bad problem caused by a forced air neg. ion generator at a friend's place (which simply HAD to stay) I found that two Felixes in series really did double my pleasure and fun... so now I'm building them that way: caps/cmc/caps/cmc/caps.
Nice Felix project boxes here... http://www.lmbheeger.com/products.asp?catid=68
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Gordy,
That sounds cool. I'm convinced. I think that I will try one CMC for each amp, sub, and SB. with that cap combination.
Brad
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NEW (not pulled) Signal A41-175-28 transformers are being offered by Sarah Pritchard in Tucson Arizona for $5.50 each plus freight.
Thanks. I picked up a set for myself a set for my brother to experiment with. 8) I also want to try Felix.
Doug
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Just ordered some JW Miller 8120 CMCs for the li'l Felix. I just wanted to make sure of the pin layout so it is wiring correctly. Looks to me that I should wire the hot to pin 1 and the neutral to pin 4. Pins 2 and 3 go to the equipment. There will be X2 caps on either side of the CMC. Is this correct?
http://www.bourns.com/pdfs/8100_series.pdf (http://www.bourns.com/pdfs/8100_series.pdf)
Thanks,
Brad
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Yup.
IN>>OUT
1>>>>2
4>>>>3
or if you flip it 180degrees, which is fine as the pins are not oriented on a 'square' but rather a rectangle
IN>>OUT
2>>>>1
3>>>>4
in the first example
hot in goes to hot out 1 to 2
neutral in goes to neutral out 4 to 3
or
hot in goes to hot out 2 to 1
neutral in goes to neutral out 3 to 4
or
you can reverse hot and neutral
with n in to n out 1 to 2
and h in to h out 4 to 3
the last workable orientation is left as an exercise.... :duh:
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Gordy and Phil,
Thanks for the information. I have ordered X2 caps and CMCs. I plan on making 3 li'l Felixs. one for my SB and one for each amp and sub.
Brad
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Excellent Brad! Please let us know your impressions of their effectiveness in your locale. :thumb:
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Is there a "sticky" that pulls together the info to build a felix?
Russ
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Not a sticky but, here's the original thread started by JoshK a year or so back.... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0
Here's a pdf with a generic circuit shown... http://www.okayaelec.co.jp/english/Products/NF/Spec/p23SUP-EW.pdf
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I'm starting a Felicia project here in the UK. The first problem has already struck - no-one seems to have transformers at less than $44 each! Yes you read that correctly. Is anyone else this side of the pond having similar issues?
Dave
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Dave,
As Paul has elluded to before, it probably makes a whole lot more sense (economically, performance wise, practically) to try out the Felix instead. The Felicia was a great solution to a limited application given the ready available cheap transformers, but is surpassed in price/perf by the Felix according to those in the know.
The CMC's are a whole lot smaller, cheap, less current limited and quite effective in their role.
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Dave,
I am also in the UK and have experienced very good results with the Felicia. I used different input and output transformers in order to minimise voltage drop across the transformer pairs and was paying about £10 per tranny here in the UK. The secondary transformer used dual 120v (240v series) primary windings and the primary transformer a single 240v output, both had 20v secondaries.
the 230v transformer can be obtained here in the UK, better be quick though as it looks like its going to be discontinued, and the alternative is nearly 3 times the price.
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=696821&N=401
the 240v series (2 x 120v) is stocked here in the Uk also, again u need to be quick
I have built 4 Feilicias using the above and consider this to be a very good trweak to any system, even in the UK where the theoretical benefits of balanced power are not as great as in countries with 110-115 v mains
good luck
Brad
http://www.jprelec.co.uk/
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Dave,
as an afterthought if you are looking to build a low cost mains filter unit for higher power use, you might want to look ath this
http://www.triode-systems.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=3
I built one of these before my Felicia project and it performs very well, without the power limitations of the Felicia - its now used to filter ther supply for my Plasma
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I have all the parts except the transformers ready to go, including custom boxes - so I am committed to a Felicia. Besides that I borrowed one, built by a friend living nearby, and was amazed at the improvements offered in my system. It was the icing on the cake in terms of smoothness and transparency. I've looked at the Farnell transformers, but the price is so high that I hesitate to move for more than one channel and I really want to do several channels in one building binge!
My primary digital sources are Sony SCD777 VSE Level 5+ for CD and a Pioneer 747A for SACD surround, these both benefitted noticeably. I'll post a system description once I'm settled in and you'll see I'm probably going a bit mad!!
Dave
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we are all a bit mad..........
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Dave,
those transformers are all under £10 each at the moment - is that too expensive?
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The ones you note have single primary windings - making them cheaper. I thought one needed twin primaries as well as twin secondaries, as these are
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp;jsessionid=RRQQWS0X24OJJQFIAFNZK0Q?N=411&Ntk=gensearch_001&Ntt=1166364&Ntx=&_requestid=110007
And these are £22 each.
Dave
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u need the twin primaries on the output transformer in order to create the complete "balanced" output - the centre tap where the 2 primaries are connected in series is connected to ground to reference the balanced output.
There is no need for twin coils on the input transformer.
Brad
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I just came upon something that seems to be functionally similar to Felix, except it is built to be used with 3-phase electricity. I'd like to know how to wire the thing for best results with SINGLE phase, so I started a separate thread in which I have included a circuit diagram:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40920
Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks
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For those consider building a Felix (or the conditioners like those discussed by Triode Systems, above) outside of N.A., RS, (Radio Spares, not RadioShack) carries the Wurth Electonik CMB, toroidal common mode chokes -
http://www.we-eisos.com/website/emc/eisos/layout/frameset.php?sector=2&selmenu=3&katid=2&lan=1
click on the WE-CMB entry
Go to your local RS website and seach on 'WE-CMB'. These have excellent specifications, single layer windings for low interwinding capacitance, and are nominally equivalent to the JW Miller 8100 series available in the States.
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After reading the entire forum I decided to build several Flex's. My question or rather my confusion with this config has to do with the size or number of caps to use ?
Is there a particular brand that others have found work well ? I suppose Auricap is not an option or is it ? if so what size ? 2 Auricap .47 uF 600V Capacitors between each cmc be ok ?
very much a newbie any suggestion would certain help.
Since I'll be buying my CMC from Newark do they carry caps that work well ?
MAIN AC IN ==> FUSE ==> [ x2 CAP => JW Miller 8120 CMC => CAPS => OUTLET ]
thanks
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rrspin,
I'd think the auricaps would work out well, they are just not dirt cheap. I'd imagine you could use other metallized polpropylene (MKP) caps of similar voltage rating if you fuse appropriately. X2 caps would be even better for safety reasons, although not sure if they sound as good.
I don't know what has been written about yet regarding the caps before and after the CMC, but I've heard some feedback about using .47 in parrallel with .1 on both before and after. But experimentation is possibly needed to determine what is best.
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thanks for the speedy response :)
Currently have 2 Auricaps across N and L behind the fuse on my CD player with a Venhaus PowerCord. With your vast experience would one notice a large improvement using or building the Flex ?
thanks again
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With your vast experience would one notice a large improvement using or building the Flex ?
thanks again
I don't have vast experience, but my limited experience would say yes. And just an FYI, its "Felix", like as in the cat. Quite simply, the cap across the line is good at turning HF differential noise into common mode noise. The CMC is then good at dampening this common mode noise. Some power transformers are wound in such a way as to provide more CM dampening, but this is becoming less and less typical.
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:wink: yes Felix !!! typing way to fast :duh:
cheers
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just go round to taking pics of my multi Felicia
the following componets are connected up to each Felicia:
AKSA GK 1R
Paridisea DAC
twin JSR06 power supplies for Orion ASP
power supply for Squeezebox
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=10241)
evary balanced output is protected by a 250ma fast blow fuse placed before the x rated final stage capacitors
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=10244)
the betwixt and between caps are various values, collected over the last 18 months, from 0.01uf to 47uf, and the umbilicals are made up of pairs of HT100 satelite cable based on the TNT audio "UBYTE" cables with nice chunky IEC connectors to terminate them:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/mains_e.html
overall I am quite happy with the results - I guess that the all in cost for this was no more than £125.00
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Heh that's great! I'm in the early stages of a 6 channel build. Currently (!) there are two channels in mid-build with some hope of a functioning box by the end of the week. The hold up is obtaining the remaining transformers. and the fact that I've gone for a wooden box with all the difficulty of cutting it and drilling it for switches, sockets etc. Your pictures are very encouraging. I note there is no sawdust :)
Dave
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just got round to taking pics of my multi Felicia
the following components are connected up to each Felicia:
AKSA GK-1R
Paridisea DAC
twin JSR06 power supplies for Orion ASP
power supply for Squeezebox
evary balanced output is protected by a 250ma fast blow fuse placed before the x rated final stage capacitors
the betwixt and between caps are various values, collected over the last 18 months, from 0.01uf to 47uf, and the umbilicals are made up of pairs of HT100 satelite cable based on the TNT audio "UBYTE" cables with nice chunky IEC connectors to terminate them:
overall I am quite happy with the results - I guess that the all in cost for this was no more than £125.00
Hi BB,
Given you stated your cost was no more than 125 UK pounds, you obviously live in the "advanced" 240v world, rather than the "primitive" 120v world!! :lol:
I am in Oz - also 240v - can you do me a big favour and post (or PM me) what transformers you used? I would like to build a pair of Felicias to go in front of the PSes of my 2 x mono active XOs (not Orions - Maggie IIIas). :D
I use TNT "Ubyte" mains cables BTW ... weeell, tweaked slightly! :D
Thanks,
Andy
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A note of caution
I just finished my Felix power conditioner. It's in a RS project box with 3 CMCs and 0.01, 0.1, and 0.47uF caps on either side of them and has outlets for each. Everything tested good, but have not had a chance to do any listening test. Anyway I completed my testing and was cleaning up when I reached across the table with the unplugged Felix and guess what I got a shock. I wasn't intentionally touching the prongs on the plug, because I know that the caps need to discharge. It was stupid on my part. Caution is needed because of the exposed prongs on the plug. My suggestion is if you are planning to unplug your Felix let it sit undisturbed a little while before doing anything with it.
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Hi Andy,
greetings fellow AKSAphile
here are the links to the 2 UK suppliers I used to source the transformers - note that both are now end of line and the replacements apear to be cost prohibitive.
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=696821&N=401
http://www.jprelec.co.uk/
you will not be surprised to hear that the GK 1R was the component that gained the least benefit from the Felicias balanced power.
what extras did you do to the U-BYTE cable?
Brad
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Hi Builder Brad,
The problem with being part way through a build is that the cost of transformers must be taken in context. I've already parted with money for all the other parts and (with a friend's help) put much effort into setting up two channels. I will probably accept the higher prices to finish the job. After all, as I was reminded, one only needs the super-expensive transformers on the output side.
Apart from that, there is the issue of the benefits for the system. Having got 2 channels going I have been able to use them to check the impact on single source / pre-amp combinations. I am hearing very worthwhile improvements in two respects: less of the 'shoutey' quality on digital and improved sound-staging. Now if a Felicia can do that in a system previously using quite expensive line-conditioning already, it is worth pursuing even if it no longer all that cheap (assuming one can afford it that is!).
Sources checked so far: Sony SCD777 VSE Level5+ Modded; Pioneer 747 Chevin Audio Modded; Krell Showcase Pre-Processor; ATC SCA2 Pre-amp.
Dave
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Hi Andy,
greetings fellow AKSAphile
here are the links to the 2 UK suppliers I used to source the transformers - note that both are now end of line and the replacements apear to be cost prohibitive.
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=696821&N=401
http://www.jprelec.co.uk/
you will not be surprised to hear that the GK 1R was the component that gained the least benefit from the Felicia's balanced power.
what extras did you do to the U-BYTE cable?
Brad
Thanks very much, Brad,
I can buy similar products here in Oz from RS Components but, even including postage from the UK, I reckon I could save minimum A$10 per trannie (and I need 4) buy buying them from Farnell. So I'll try them! :D
However, before I lash out ... you said I'd "not be surprised to hear the GK-1R was the component that gained the least benefit from the Felicia's balanced power"! :o
The reason why this statement is perticularly important to me is that the GK-1 has emitter-follower regulated PSes on the main PCB (and the phono stage). Hugh has explained to me why this is a good "topology" to use to regulate source-component PSes and I agree with his argument (as far as I can understand it!! :lol: ).
But but but ... I'm only innerested in building Felicias (2) to go in front of my 2 active XOs ... and these are powered by an emitter-follower regulated PS designed by Hugh!! So it may well be that my active XOs will not benefit much from Felicias either? :?
So I guess I need to know whether you heard any improvement with the GK-1? As long as there is some, I'm happy to commit the money to buying the power trannies for my actives!! :D
And "what extras did I do to the U-BYTE cable?" ... weeelll, obviously, I used different coax as that Italian stuff wasn't available in Oz. :D I used some very thick, teflon-insulated, stranded core (Belden RG-6 coax, originally, I think) but I stripped off the braid as I don't personally think that braiding 3 shielded cores does anything! So my Ubyte is just 3 insulated cores, braided.
Regards,
Andy
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Has anyone got recent UK experience of the 'Felix'? I'm interested in building a pair to power my ATC 50A speakers - 350w amps built into each speaker. Nothing on the Felix thread indicates values for components.
Dave
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Has anyone got recent UK experience of the 'Felix'? I'm interested in building a pair to power my ATC 50A speakers - 350w amps built into each speaker. Nothing on the Felix thread indicates values for components.
Dave
I think you are confoosed! :D
AIUI, the Felicia is strictly for low power-draw source components ... not power amps.
Regards,
Andy
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Andy,
This is often true - that I'm confused :wink: - but not this time. Which is why I said 'Felix' not 'Felicia'. No entries have been made on the other thread for several months so I hope to gain attention here.
My Felicia channels are working really well - the Felix might help further downstream.
Dave
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I what to thank Occam, JoshK and anyone else that provided input and help for the Felix. I finally got a chance to listen to my Filex and I must say that it is a nice improvement to the overall sound. Bottom line I'm hearing more information with no apparent loss in dynamics. I built it in a RS project box with 3 JW Miller 8120 CMCs, X2 caps in the following values on both sides of the CMCs 0.01/0.1/0.47uFs and an outlet for each. I have my Bottlehead Paramounts and BolderCable Modded SB2 connected to it. I will next connect my subs to the same outlets as my amps to see if there is an improvement.
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Andy,
This is often true - that I'm confused :wink: - but not this time. Which is why I said 'Felix' not 'Felicia'.
Dave
Aah ... right! Sorry. :oops:
Andy
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I had a chance to borrow Gordy's Felix a few weeks ago...a very nice improvement in the sound of the my system.....and much more compact than the Felicia. Its well worth the effort to build one..... :thumb:
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I had a chance to borrow Gordy's Felix a few weeks ago...a very nice improvement in the sound of the my system.....and much more compact than the Felicia. Its well worth the effort to build one..... :thumb:
i understand this is on its way to me; i am looking forward to trying it on my preamp & sources; not sure it will have enough juice for me to try on my amps.
i am also looking forward to comparing it to this furman balanced power conditioner i yust sniped on ebay. at this price, it was hard to resist. now, if i could only find something more substantial at a similar price for my amps! aa
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13011697356
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=02&id=IT-REF_7
(http://www.furmansound.com/new/images/IT-REF_7-front_page.jpg)
(http://www.furmansound.com/new/images/IT-REF_7-rear_page.jpg)
doug s.
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I use the Felix with my amps and have no problems. I built it with the JW Miller 8120 common mode inductor which is rated for 17 amps. I use one for each amp and SB2 for a total of 3 inductors. If you feel that you need a higher rated inductor there is the 8121 rated at 20 amps.
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Brn,
First, sorry about the delayed response about your shocking revelation. I shouldn't make light of it, as while that shock from the prongs of an unplugged Felicia/Felix with undischarged caps is unlikely to cause physical harm, the shock itself could well cause one to fall or result in secondary injuries.
You can address this with a bleeder resistor across the line on the plug end. This will discharge the capacitor (which could be charged to 1.414 the line voltage). An approximately 100k flameproof 2 watt resistor should do this well.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&CAT_ID=41&ObjectGroup_ID=569&SO=2
You'd simply parallel 2 220k resistors (10 for 69cents) across the line at the plug end, or for a quicker discharge, 2 x 100k. The 2 are suggested as the resistors are only one watt, and 2 gives a margin for failure. A net 110k resistor across a 120vac line is going to draw a bit more that one milliamp of ac continuously, about .14 watt.
If you've more that one Felix/Felicia fed from the same cord, you just need one (set) of those resistors to discharge the caps. Similarly, parallel Feli could share input caps. Rather than 3 sets of .47, .1 and .01uf for a 3 parallel unit Felix, one single set consisting of a 1.5, .1 and .01uf should work well, but the outputs of each Felix would have their own same caps.
I'm curious about your results when you plug your subs into the Felixs. I've run a whole (modest) system through a single 8120 based Felix and been surprised by the effectiveness. An alternative is to build additional Felixs so that you can provide isolation between components. You might consider giving each of the subs their own 8120 (17amps) based Feli, and for your SB ps and Paramounts. higher inductance. lower current versions. A 9amp 8118 should handle the 200watt max???? draw of a Paramount, and the 8117 should handle the <20watt draw of the SB power supply.
All things being equal, load, caps, etc... when you double the inductance you lower the lowpass frequency by a factor of 1.414 (Sqrt(2)) and do the same for the 'Q' of the filter's pole, which are very good things.....
Note - If you use inductors rated for less than the 15/20 amps of your outlet (differs outside of N.A.) one should fuse the input of that Felix with a fuse/breaker rated <= than that of the inductor. I wouldn't want to walk away from a Felix with a 3amp rated coil feeding a plasma TV consuming 700watts. :duh:
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i understand that the felix i am getting is rated about 10a - likely not quite enough for a pair of electrocompaniet aw75dmb's driving my subs, & a soon to arrive mesa baron amp for my mains. but, i may still try it out, at modest sound level. if it works out, then i need to build one (or have one built for me), w/more mondo transformers. i want one w/a least five separate inputs - one for each amp, (the mesa has two power cords - monoblocks on a single chassis), and a fifth for the outboard active x-over...
doug s.
I use the Felix with my amps and have no problems. I built it with the JW Miller 8120 common mode inductor which is rated for 17 amps. I use one for each amp and SB2 for a total of 3 inductors. If you feel that you need a higher rated inductor there is the 8121 rated at 20 amps.
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Occam,
After I posted about my shocking revelation I remembered from my Bottlehead builds that they use bleed resistors in their PS for just that reason. I should have posted a follow-up with that information.
My Felixs are completely based on your design and parts recommendations. The design is basically 3 parallel Felixs with their own set of caps being fed from the same cord. I will be trying the Felix with the sub and post my results. Also, I will have to give different inductors a try and see what effect they have on the sound.
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i understand that the felix i am getting is rated about 10a - likely not quite enough...
Hello tuna man!
The Felix coming your way is a twin 10a version, the coils are in series, built as a comparo to a single coil. The amps I used were bridged 3886 chip amps, each fed with it's own 300va/25v 14kuF supply. 6a fuses have survived a couple years of power up inrush so, even with a tube preamp and cdp on line, I seriously doubt the Felix's have seen more than 4-5 amps powering the whole shebang. Those mondos might be a bit hairy!
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Hi All
Just finished a Felicia build . This is way better than I ever dreamed it would be . Expanded sound stage , expanded tone colors , everything more there , there . I want to personally thank Occam and Josh K. for the R & D on this project .
Has anyone done a schematic on the Felix that I could view . I can't really picture how the CMC's are wired into the circuit .
Thanks again
Joey B
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I don't think anyone has sketched one out, but here is a link that explains it in words...
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0
The CMC is super simple. There are two coil windings, one is in series on the hot, one in series on the neutral. If you measure ohms of the coils, you will get a very small reading if you are measuring across the coils, if you measure from one coil to the other it will be an open circuit. The CMC's aren't directional, just don't reverse one coil relative to the other or it won't work.
this is the best I can do with asci
H ---@@@@----
======
N ---@@@@----
the @'s are the coils
the ='s is the coil's core
Its like a normal transformer turned sideways...
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I've just added a schematic (second post) to the Felix thread that Josh referenced -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0
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I see :o
Is there a concensus on which JW Miller 8100 series to use . I see the mh and amperage value change with each unit . :scratch:
thanks
Joey B
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Nor should there be. Ideally, you want as much inductance as possible without constraining required current draw. And some components just don't mesh with any sort of conditioner. My CAT-SL1 preamp is a good example of this. Oftentimes such components have their own conditioning efforts implemented internally, and they can sometime interact with externally provided conditioners. On some components its beneficial to remove the extant conditioning (if you know what you're doing) and use external. There are no hard and fast rules.
I'm curious about your results when you plug your subs into the Felixs. I've run a whole (modest) system through a single 8120 based Felix and been surprised by the effectiveness. An alternative is to build additional Felixs so that you can provide isolation between components. You might consider giving each of the subs their own 8120 (17amps) based Feli, and for your SB ps and Paramounts. higher inductance. lower current versions. A 9amp 8118 should handle the 200watt max???? draw of a Paramount, and the 8117 should handle the <20watt draw of the SB power supply.
All things being equal, load, caps, etc... when you double the inductance you lower the lowpass frequency by a factor of 1.414 (Sqrt(2)) and do the same for the 'Q' of the filter's pole, which are very good things.....
Note - If you use inductors rated for less than the 15/20 amps of your outlet (differs outside of N.A.) one should fuse the input of that Felix with a fuse/breaker rated <= than that of the inductor. I wouldn't want to walk away from a Felix with a 3amp rated coil feeding a plasma TV consuming 700watts. :duh:
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I agree. I have an Audio Prism preamp. The sound is overly constrained whenever I have tried an external power conditioner on it - of any type from a simple cap across the +/- to chokes to a Felix. That's probably because they have implemented their own proprietary power conditioning inside and doubling up is not a good thing. I'm also not prone to pulling it out and going external either though.
I've also found that any kind of choked conditioning on my amps causes a choked sound, but this is a well known and common condition. Extra caps across the lines definitelty help here though (haven't tried a Felix, but I'm tempted to).
Enjoy,
Bob
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Well, my 6 channel Felicia is finished and working and I'm happy to post pics if someone can point me to instructions.
Dave
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After Further review ....
I checked out the schematic that Paul posted . The caps on the Felix are not going to be a good match for another project I have I have been contemplating . Doing a Hammand 193M choke on the 1st dedicated AC recepticle . The chokes are not a good match with caps across the line .
I assume i'm good with the Felicia on my front end , those caps would be separrated from the choke by the A41 transformers . :roll:
Thanks
Joey B
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I did some listening with my subs connected to my Felix. I had to connect a sub and a Paramount together on a single Felix circuit. The first thing I noticed was that the mains and subs integrated better. This seemed to create a very good sense of reality. I could pinpoint where all the musicians were located. The one area that seemed to suffer were the dynamics. I believe that this is caused be having the subs and amps connected to the Felix. I'm thinking that I will build Felixs for each sub, but may use a little different cap configurations (1.0/0.1/0.01uF) and use the 8121 CMC.
I'm very impressed with the what the Felix has done to improve the overall sound of my system, and feel that I just need the right combination of caps and CMC for the subs.
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Thanks BRN for your feedback and having been the one to try it. My subs aren't built yet. I think you are probably right about having too much on one Felix. Theorectically it shouldn't matter but subjectively I think we are more sensitive to minutia that is readily evident.
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Hi,
I got attracted with this balancing power DIY.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441.0
CAUTIONS!
1. The input 'hot' line should be fused to reflect the maximun draw allowed for the input transformer. In the case of the 175va Signal transformer initially reccomended, for the single output, it should be a 1amp fuse, reflecting the downrating required by the series connection of the primaries down to 88VA. In versions 2 & 3 where the input primaries are configured in parallel, a 2amp fuse should be used reflecting that 175VA rating. As the transformer is an EI core feeding a 'small' capacitance of 15uf, that rating should not cause turn-on surge tripping.
Also, if the unit is plugged into a large draw component, like an amplifier, you want the fuse to trip rather than have the transformer go into meltdown.
is there a version 2 or 3 for This project using a different configuration?
if you use a 1 amp fuse as stated to limit the power draw as 85VA in the input section (F1),the F2 and F3 should only be 0.5 amp to keep the power rating the same in this schematic?correct me if wrong please.
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Hi All,
Just an update after using Felicia Balanced power conditioner for 3 months I came to this conclusion. I tried the capacitor banks but the configuration I liked was with out C2&C5 (0.47uf)
1. It defenitely improves the back ground of your music and tremendous increase in sound stage and clarity.
2. At least for me without 0.47uf not in felicia the high frequencies are accentuated to a greater extent and bass response become slightly weaker(unsure)
3. Tremendous listening fatigue. every day I listen with felicia powering my line level devices ultamte result is a nagging ache in my head.When I power things directly it is no there.Regardless of the source.I tried my CD player,Squeezebox touch and Tvico player. :(
Does anyone has any suggestions? I am planning to put 0.47 in line and see if that helps.At least some scientific explanantion why that happens?
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Hi All,
I'm from Singapore. Since about 3~4 years ago I built a Felicia Power Conditioner from the information found on this site.
I've since enjoyed many years for amazing music thanks to all of you.
All my equipment are 230V, which work well according to our local supply. However, recently I got a CD transport that run on 120V.
Can anyone tell me if it is alright to put a step-down transformer after the Felicia conditioner?
I acquired a isolated step-down transformer lately, and I intend to hookup between our conditioner and the socket. is there anything that I should watch out for?
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hi
sorry am late , is there any new update in design?. thanks
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Just some reminders on this old project:
a] all capacitors used in AC power circuits need to be 'X' & 'Y' types.
b] all power filters should be wired as close to their audio components as practicable.