[neobop]

I'm not sure if standard compression is feasible or desirable for AT.  I haven't really thought about it yet.   What we don't see in the diagram is a flexible part of the suspension wire directly behind the pivot.  Most of the wire is housed.  The length of the flexible part is varied with design criteria.  Shorter being more exact, less lossy, but also more prone to response peaks.  Less expensive models probably have a longer flexible part - more forgiving and smoother.  That in itself might not preclude standardization, but what if filaments vary in flexibility? 

Tell you the truth, I have no desire to do any more transplants, at least for now.   The 20SS stylus is fine the way it is and I have a NOS spare.  If I want an exotic for my 95 and Virtuoso, I can send it to Soundsmith for a ruby/LC or OLC.  That would cost about the same as an ATN150MLX, which could go on the 440, but with an ATN140LC on there it's not too bad.  I have the 12E/fake Precept wired for mono....  This is kind of crazy.  What I really need is a SS level 3 for the 980.   
neo 

 

[neobop]

I was looking up some specs on the Sonus carts and came across this.  First a tribute to Peter Pritchard when he passed:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/peter-pritchard

Sonus brochure w/specs:
http://www-f9.ijs.si/~margan/Audio/Sonus_Manufacturer_Specs.pdf

Audio Magazine April 1977:
http://www-f9.ijs.si/~margan/Audio/Sonus_Blue_Label_Audio_Apr_1977.pdf

neo

[neobop]

Doing a search for info on older carts is interesting to say the least.  Google knows what I'm looking for.  This one is in Norwegian.  Set your translators on stun, the commentary is rather amusing.  I guess expressions don't translate well.   Info on Technics MMs:
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/vennetra-der-hifimerker/66200-technics-matsushita-electric-trading-co-ltd.html

Check out post #8.  Fig. 15 is freq. response variations due to tip mass.  Fig. 14 is tip mass of diff. models.  Specs 205C 3 below.  Awesome!!
FR  5 - 80K, 
15 - 60K +/- 3dB
20 - 15K +/- .5dB

I guess it's not fair to compare a 10 or $15K cart to a vintage MM with a boron tube cantilever.  After all, the only tube cantilever they can buy is aluminum or some other rolled sheet metal type.  Carbon cantilevers sound like crap so that's not viable.   What's a poor high end mfg. to do?

Irrespective of my sarcasm, I think the 7dB rise @ 20K of Atlas, Kleos, is a deliberate voicing decision, which in my mind confirms both David's opinion about MC rising high end, and Ortofon phase theory.  It doesn't matter which is right or wrong or both partially, the net result is the same.  Like the barkeep said, you pay your money and pick your poison.
Later,
neo
 

[dlaloum]

I would postulate that the 7db rise is less of a "choice" than it is a compromise....

The options available to limit that rise are:

Heavier damping (with negative influence on sound)
Lower Mass (switch cantilever types, are lower mass cantilevers even an option today?)
Electrical EQ (external to cartridge is outside the manufacturers control, internal to the cartridge can only be achieved by switching to a High Output / High Inductance design - either of these would require fighting against current audiophile fashion.... not very marketable - and electrical EQ also has potential mild/subtle sonic negatives)

There are only a very few contenders today for no compromise....:

Dynavector Karat - ultra short ruby/diamond cantilever leads to low mass, very flat F/R - design is not great for seperation though

Decca London - No cantilever at all ! lots of people swear by this one - I have yet to try it

That's it! - No one else in the low mass cantilever game today...

There are a few that are there in terms of high inductance with loading.... and with a cantilever of Boron or Sapphire - so low-ish mass with the ability to correct through loading.... Audio Technica, Soundsmith/B&O, Nagaoka.... anyone else ?

In the Low output side of things there are lots of Boron and Sapphire cantilevered options (relatively speaking) - but we are back to the compromises with rising high end.

The very best MC's of the early 80's didn't have to compromise as they could (and did ) use Boron or Beryllium tube cantilevers - these are the MC's that led the charge and made MC's the audiophile "gold" standard - but one might argue that current MC's are "gliding" on the reputation generated 30 years ago....

If we go back to the era before ultra-low mass cantilevers were available,high inductance designs were king - for good reasons!

There are other compromises too - magnetic ones, and for those the only real remedy seems to be a combination of specialised construction (laminations, HPF) and low output. How low? - how low can you go before starting to hit the constraints of low inductance designs?

Seems to me that the acme of MM/MI design was in the sub 2V output range.... with inductances of between 80mH and 200mH.... (AT25/TK9, EPC100... others?)

I wonder how much it would cost to set up a boron tube cantilever production line..... the patents are long expired....

[neobop]

Well, yes and no.  I see it somewhat differently.  Lyra response is deliberate.  Did you read J. Carr's follow up posts?  He talked about different flavors and choices for the end user.  Our mistake is assuming that FR accuracy is preferred.  It's not. 

Look at an example that's been documented on this thread, the MC200.  Peak at 27K and + 3.8dB at 20K was the compromise.  With additional damping it was virtually flat.  Without damping + 7dB @ 20K was considered unacceptable - too bright, unlistenable!!  Boron cantilevered MCs with  5/6mm cantilever length typically seem to peak close to 30K. 

Exotic tube cantilevers were few and far between.  Outside of Technics and Nakatsuka designs, I could only find a few examples.  Many were sapphire.  If it were feasible, I'd think hollow boron would be incorporated in ZYX carts.  Nakatsuka's flavor is accuracy, but it's not for every audiofool, besides, + 7 dB @20K is a good reason to buy some overpriced tube gear that rolls off the high end.  How lush and romantic!!

Current Dynavectors are a good example of the relative value of accuracy.  Take a gander:
http://www.dynavector.com/products/cart/e_17d3.html

http://www.dynavector.com/products/cart/frame.html

17d3 response to 100K.  Look at XV-1S specs.  Where's the beef?  Maybe it's soy? 

I don't know this as fact, but I think it was Namiki that made the hollow boron cantilevers.  They made the microridge and Nakatsuka used that exclusively after they became available (early '80s).   I suspect Namiki is getting out of the stylus/cantilever business.  Everybody seems to be using Ogura now.  Maybe Namiki is just fulfilling contracts or is limiting production.  Did you notice AT is curtailing the ML, which looks identical to the microridge? 

When Axel (German re-tipper) tried to buy inventory from both of those companies, he couldn't even get a response.   Most businesses, even audio, think of the vinyl resurgence as a fad that will diminish after a few more years. 

David, you and I are out of touch.  Accuracy from vinyl, why?  Record players are for romance, warmth and sweetness, and to own extremely cool looking stuff.  Nothing beats an elegantly appointed table with a cart that looks like a bird of prey or a space module.  Mount your gargoyle and align it if you must, I just want to look at it.
neo  pterosaur
 

[Jeff K]

David, you and I are out of touch.  Accuracy from vinyl, why?  Record players are for romance, warmth and sweetness, and to own extremely cool looking stuff.  Nothing beats an elegantly appointed table with a cart that looks like a bird of prey or a space module.  Mount your gargoyle and align it if you must, I just want to look at it.

Wow! I was wondering when someone would get around to that. I have often thought the same thing. If one is looking for the lowest noise, lowest distortion, and flattest response, don't look to vinyl. If one is looking for an experience that will give the most musical satisfaction, give vinyl a listen.

[dlaloum]

Hi Jeff,

not arguing with that approach - and it is totally valid for current release material which is available in various formats (digital for neutral & accurate reproduction, Vinyl for euphonic purposes) - that is fine.

But with vintage recordings? Many of which have never and will never be remastered onto digital? - for those you need a Vinyl setup that achieves neutrality and accurate reproduction of the original mastering...

This is what is becoming increasingly difficult to do! - it is also the "higher goal" - in that if you can achieve neutrality, you can achieve euphonia with various adjustments (equaliser, tubes, choice of speakers).

But setting up for euphonia, implies that you wish to make all recordings sound the same in that particular euphonic way. - This is where I have a problem.

Example - I have a Sony XL-MC104P high output MC which I particularly like - it has a very sweet bell like clarity, which goes very very well with small acoustic groups, baroque, violin and such.
It does not do well with large romantic era orchestrations (or stuff like Erich Kunzel etc...) - Analysis shows that it has a pronounced resonance at 6kHz (from memory - I would have to check back on my measurements) - it is definitely not neutral.

Is it euphonic - yes, but as a result of being euphonic, it suits certain types of music and recording and not others.

Also the approach of selecting for a sound one "likes" is one that has no objective touchpoint - being a purely subjective approach, it is like fashion - there are no absolutes, no means of comparing between my setup and yours. Every system set up along those lines becomes by its very definition an individual "fruit" - and there is no way of realistically comparing apples and oranges!

A reviewers article becomes just a whole bunch of hot air under those conditions! - What he/she heard would only be relevant to you and your setup, if you both have at least made some attempt to have the same "fruit". If either the reviewer or the end listener has chosen to build their system based on euphonics - then the review no longer has any applicability to the listener system.

Not that I am saying that various setups aiming at neutrality sound the same - far from it, technology has to date not been able to provide systems that are sufficiently perfect not to have compromises that colour the sound (including the room!).

My own biases.... I love and have owned quad electrostatics for years - knowing their weaknesses in terms of loudness/headroom and bass.
As a contrast I used to love the classic Boston Acoustics A400. (didn't quite get the MicroDetails like the Quads do, but got close, with fabulous tight bass....)

Was impressed by classic Klipsch (Klipschorn, LaScala, Forte) - but never loved them - yeah they have the headroom, loudness and bass - but I never found them able to reproduce the microdynamic detail that the electrostatics did and do (and which I value much more highly).
Speakers I never liked - mid 80's Pioneer and Magnat metal tweeter speakers - they always sounded harsh and edgy to me.

The imperfections are of course 99% in the transducers - speakers and cartridges... but by choosing "neutrality" - I have a measurable and (to some degree) achievable goal.... deviation from that neutrality can then be achieved in a controlled manner, and when reading reviews by authors that have similar aims, I have some hope that the reviews will have relevance.....

Just call me an audiophile trilobite (much older than dinosaurs).

bye for now

David

[neobop]

Trilobite eh?  a nasty lookin horseshoe crab kinda thing.   I'm sticking with the youngsters.  Neo Pterosaur has a certain ring to it, like a cheap tonearm.  Besides, that was one bad-ass bird or flying reptile whatever.  Grew to 50' can you imagine?  Like a flying killer whale.   That's how Fred Flintstone died.  Pete Pterosaur swooped down and that was all she wrote for poor Fred.  Yabba dabba.....

And here I thought I was being factious.  Jeff, you have a point.  "If one is looking for an experience that will give the most musical satisfaction, give vinyl a listen."   Well said.
Neo Pterosaur

[*Scotty*]

As a fellow dinosaur, all I would ask from a vinyl setup is the lowest possible distortion that the medium is capable of. The irony is that most phono stages claim very good RIAA EQ curve accuracy and by extension a flat response curve excluding the cartridges inherent frequency response. Given this it seems somewhat self defeating to compromise the flatness of system by knowingly building a cartridge with a very large deviation from flat response.
 It is obvious that the best available technology is no-longer applied to phono cartridge design, probably for economic reasons. I don't find it hard to believe that a Laser can drill a square hole through almost any material that a cantilever
can be made from, unfortunately the exotic materials technology still available to the industry doesn't seem to be able to brought together with a laser drill.
 I think we are lucky to still have cartridges made by Dynavector and Audio-Technica in the marketplace given economic downturn in 1991.
Scotty

[dlaloum]

Trilobite eh?  a nasty lookin horseshoe crab kinda thing.   I'm sticking with the youngsters.  Neo Pterosaur has a certain ring to it, like a cheap tonearm.  Besides, that was one bad-ass bird or flying reptile whatever.  Grew to 50' can you imagine?  Like a flying killer whale.   That's how Fred Flintstone died.  Pete Pterosaur swooped down and that was all she wrote for poor Fred.  Yabba dabba.....

And here I thought I was being factious.  Jeff, you have a point.  "If one is looking for an experience that will give the most musical satisfaction, give vinyl a listen."   Well said.
Neo Pterosaur

My 1 year old has recently been nicknamed "bam bam" after crawling around the house holding a plastic mineral water bottle (empty) in his hand and hitting everything in sight with it... - the spitting image of Bam-Bam....

And yeah the latest info on Pterosaur is pretty impressive....

[dlaloum]

I think we are lucky to still have cartridges made by Dynavector and Audio-Technica in the marketplace given economic downturn in 1991.
Scotty

Amen!

[Jeff K]

I too, am a dinosaur. I first got serious about audio around 1971. To me, CD took a lot of the hobby aspect out of it. I really enjoy(ed) the tweekiness of optimizing vinyl playback. While both formats are capable of excellent reproduction, getting vinyl to that level is much more satisfying and fun.

I found a couple of Art Dudley's recent writings interesting. In one, he stated that playback is best heard on the equipment from the era in which it was recorded. Perhaps that's true.

The other is more controversial. He said that vinyl sounds best because it's the only playback source that generates its own signal. All other sources require a separate power supply. I don't know about that one. It's probably a subject for a long contentious thread.

Then again, the worse a component measures, the more Art seems to like it. 

[dlaloum]

The other is more controversial. He said that vinyl sounds best because it's the only playback source that generates its own signal. All other sources require a separate power supply. I don't know about that one. It's probably a subject for a long contentious thread.

Definitely contentions - especially given that as a line source you have to include the phono stage....

But perhaps he is talking about ceramic cartridges? (or Acoustics!)

[Jeff K]

I'm sure Art means the original signal at the source. The magnet/coil interaction generates that initial signal. There are other power supplies along the amplification chain, of course. In the June issue of Stereophile he writes, "Every other medium in existence - even analog tape - depends on an external power supply to create a source signal."

Check it out. No matter what you think of Stereophile or Art Dudley, it is an interesting column. I'm surprised it hasn't garnered more internet debate.

[neobop]

I'm sure Art means the original signal at the source. The magnet/coil interaction generates that initial signal. There are other power supplies along the amplification chain, of course. In the June issue of Stereophile he writes, "Every other medium in existence - even analog tape - depends on an external power supply to create a source signal."

Check it out. No matter what you think of Stereophile or Art Dudley, it is an interesting column. I'm surprised it hasn't garnered more internet debate.

Clever fellow.  Take the most heavily criticized aspect of records, the mechanical excitation of the playback source transducer, and declare it an attribute. 

He's being deliberately provocative.   I wonder if he considered the strain gauge.   It must be hard coming up with new and interesting bullshit every month. 
neo pterosaur

[neobop]

Anthony Cordesman

search for vintage tests 
got sonus pdf
that's '79 say you in jest?
luck be with and all the rest

Maybe I should stick to prose.
  They're available for $6 a pop from someone who scanned them, and they're listed by month, year, and equipment name.  I'll have to try another way, but it's not easy to find the juicy vintage ones.  Buy a bunch, and I could have had a VP29.   For the moment, in lieu of that, an interesting guy:

"Anthony Cordesman is a former director of intelligence assessment for the U.S. secretary of defense’s office and a recipient of the Department of Defense Distinguished Service Medal. He now holds the Arleigh A. Burke Chair in Strategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies."
http://www.rferl.org/content/cordesman-says-obama-made-promise-cant-keep/24995572.html

This thread isn't about politics or US foreign policy, and the interview was about dealing with terrorism, and yes this is the same guy who does equipment reports.  That in itself doesn't qualify him to do audio equipment reports, but.....you be the judge:
http://www.stereophile.com/writer/146

Check out the case against show reports and J Gordon Holt's reply.   Cordesman is like a breath of fresh air IMO.
You'll also find reports in TAS like this:
http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/TAS_Strain_Gauge.pdf

On the other hand, is an entirely different viewpoint, I'd call it the clown dog whores gone wild perspective:
http://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/critic3.htm 

neoboposaurus


 

[*Scotty*]

When Tony Cordesman was writing for Stereophile his cartridge reviews were very concise and included a complete set measurements. Ah for the good old days when reviewers of phono cartridges actually produced some facts to balance out their hyperbole.
Scotty

[neobop]

When Tony Cordsman was writing for Stereophile his cartridge reviews were very concise and included a complete set measurements. Ah for the good old days when reviewers of phono cartridges actually produced some facts to balance out their hyperbole.
Scotty

I don't remember that Scotty.  He talked about carts in other reviews and overviews.  Maybe that was with another publication?  I don't know of Stereofool ever having cart measurements except mfg. specs, and a full test report?  Forget about it. 

If you can stand another review, here's Fremer's take on Strain Gauge:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/soundsmith-strain-gauge-sg-200-phono-cartridge-system

Discussion later.  By that time I suspect I'll be talking to myself. 
neoboplicity


 

[*Scotty*]

That would have back in the 80s before they changed magazine's size format. He was using his own test records and test equipment to measure the cartridges. To my knowledge the magazine didn't own the records or equipment to do these type of measurements.
Scotty

[dlaloum]

Come to think of it, the strain gauge is the ONLY type of cartridge where development can in fact continue unimpeded....

Standard magnetics have reached a dead end, and stepped back from their peak in the mid/late 80's. (exceptions: Dynavector Karat, Decca London ?)

At some point I need to fix up my SG phono stage (which I believe to be the cause of a channel imbalance in my Panasonic SG) - I do recall it sounding quite stunning - but I had only just got it going and listened to one or two records when the channel imbalance appeared - I have been hoping since that it is the phono stage - but it has been in storage waiting for me to get a "round tuit" since...

I have a feeling that although the SS SG has had further development since the panasonic effort (which SS was one of the few to service!) - the key to its achievement is in the phono stage that apparently does some proprietary EQ.... no details have been forthcoming in any of the reviews, nor have I seen any proper measurements of its performance ... which would be of great interest!

As a mad keen electrostatic speaker fan since the mid 80's - the Strain Gauge cartridges seem right down my alley.

bye for now

David

(currently in the process of getting toddler friendly 'stats' operational .... ie: a pair of vintage Stax headphones)