AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: kylevuong19 on 3 Sep 2015, 12:54 pm
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Hi guys,
I know it's an old topic but I want you guys to help me to list our that amps works well with Maggies. I read a lot of reviews/topics and people always recommend Pass Labs, Audio Research, Bryston, Sander Magtech, Conrad Johnson amps. For poor audiophile like me, I'm struggling to find a good amp that suits my budget but still deliver good sound quality.
Here's some of the names that I have read good reviews about them driving Maggies:
Parasound Halo A21 (used)
Bel Canto Ref1000M / 500M (used)
Emotiva XPA-2
McCormick DNA-225
Moscode
AVA Synergy 450
Odyssey Khartago
Outlaw Audio 2200
[This list has been edited]
PS: Thanks all for your contribution, I have edited the listed above according to your opinions so people like me can easily use as a reference list.
Apparently I’m in Australia and as you know, hifi brands are very limited here. I can’t hardly find a Odyssey, Moscode or AVA for sale.
In Australia I can find the below in a suitable price:
Wyred 4 Sound ST 1000 power amp
Bel Canto Ref 500M
Parasound A21
Emotiva
Among these I would pick either Bel Canto or Wyred 4 Sound due to their high input impedance (80-100k Ohm) so they can match well with my Prima Luna preamp.
Anyone have any idea on the Wyred 4 Sound power amp?
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here one,u can't beat that.http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=136925.0
:thumb:
lapsan
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Another product to consider is: (these are NEW prices too)
http://www.odysseyaudio.com/products-khartago-mono.html $2k
http://www.odysseyaudio.com/products-khartago-stereo.html $1k
Odyssey has 30 day return if you do not like them....
McCormic DNA are nice amps too...
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I'd also look for a used Moscode 401HR at around $2K
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Odyssey. Models starting at far less than your price (and some above it), and they will all drive the Maggies with no problem.
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In your price range you should be looking for Odyssey power amps for your Maggies. Lots of good clean power with no harshness. They will make your system sing.
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I'd also look for a used Moscode 401HR at around $2K
Which Maggie model? My vintage Moscode 300 did a great job on 1.6s, and now powers the mids/highs on my 20.1s.
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Odyssey. Models starting at far less than your price (and some above it), and they will all drive the Maggies with no problem.
+1 one on that - big bang for the buck
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I have a Parasound Halo A21 amp and a pair of Maggie 1.6's. The A21 is a great amp but not a great match for the 1.6's. Don't get me wrong, the sound is good but there are better matches. I found that the A21 to be too bright with the Maggies and I was running a tube preamp and tube DAC. I ended up with a Pass X250 amp that is in a whole other league with better bass, transparency, warmth, musicality and a blacker background. The A21 does have a little bit of grain to it. I would also stay away from the Emotiva amps. They are good for cheap power but there are better amps.
Audio Perfection the local Maggie dealer here in Minnneapolis run Bel Canto with them and they sound great.
I would consider Odyssea amps and this Vincent Audio SP 331MK power amp at 300 wpc. It is a hybrid tube-SS amp that has a great sound that is transparent and a slightly warmer edge. I have a friend that has one with its matching preamp. Maggies love tubes.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISP331MK
Another used amp to consider are these Bryston 7BST Mono blocks-
https://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-bryston-7bst-mono-amps-excellent-condition-2015-08-29-amplifiers-t5w3c3
Here is a review on the 7BST-
http://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-7b-nrb-thx-st-sst-monoblock-power-amplifier-7b-st-october-1996#3VD7ZWb2CTCLXi0k.97
What preamp will you be using and what model Maggies?
Larry
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I recommend this:
http://avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=158&Itemid=254
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Hi Kyle, I never owned the OutLaw Audio 2200 mono amps but I remembered someone used
them with Maggies on another forum with great success.. You might want to give them a look..
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-4164-outlaw-model-2200-mono-amp-ea.aspx?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=139443168530&gclid=CKnjy9O428cCFUNhfgodIW8Mpg
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/outlaw/m200.html
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See if you can find a Threshold S-500 that has been restored. The price should be in line with what you are looking to spend, and they can easily drive the Maggies.
Don't be afraid to try a used McIntosh (MC 7270, MC 7300). Those are excellent matches for the Maggies, and can be had in your price range.
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Which Maggie model? My vintage Moscode 300 did a great job on 1.6s, and now powers the mids/highs on my 20.1s.
Nice examples of the Moscode 300 can be found from $600-800. Not as refined as the 401, but has most of the power. I've got one in a local shop now that has a hum issue.
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We'd need to know which model, what size room, what do you listen to and how loud do you like it?
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For $2000 either the Odyssey or Van Alstine Synergy 450 would be excellent choices. One advantage with the Synergy 450 is one can be in your house fairly quickly on a 30 day trial.
Back in July 2013 we did a comparison between a Synergy 450 and a Krell Full Power Balanced 200 driving Magnepan 3.7's and this is what I wrote:
"We decided to start the amp comparison with the Van Alstine Synergy 450. My gosh, the sound was so close to what we heard with the Krell that we had to try out a lot of different music to find out if there really were any differences. Bass was a wash because the REL did all the low stuff, turn off the REL and the 3.7's didn't go low enough by themselves to notice any difference.
"After a mash-up of music ending with the Dire Straits "Love over Gold", David and I agreed that even though everything sounded excellent, what was missing was the sharp attack of a note. A politeness maybe. The leading edge was ever so slightly attenuated; not even noticeable unless you heard the Krell first. Putting the FPB 200 back in confirmed our impression, but to my ears that was all that changed. The mids, highs, and low level information seemed identical to the Krell.
"We think the difference in attack is because the Krell, besides weighing 3 times more than the Synergy, runs in Class A. All of the FPB 200's 400 watts/channel (4 ohms) are ready to go instantly. David said the Krell is not kind to poorly recorded music, though never analytical the quickness and clarity can put an edge to the sound which is where the PS Audio PerfectWave filters can make a marginal recording very listenable.
"I think the 3.7's like plenty of power to come alive, even though both amps are over 200 watts per channel the Krell has the braun to back it up, it is one big (and hot) amp. The Van Alstine Fet Valve 600R Hybrid amp would probably be a better match to the 3.7's and give the Krell a run for it's money."
Wayne
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I found it:
vocals, jazz and a bit of classic, my listening room is a living room (4 x 6 metre).
with
Peachtree Audio Nova 125SE with MG12 and planning to buy a power amp (or mono blocks power amps) to add more power to the Peachtree (using Pre out).
and he wants tubes.
A better question for me to ask is where are you located?
If it's US you've got Rogue, AVA (hybrid amps), maybe older used VTLs or similar.
Retubing monoblocks can get kind of expensive if you go that route.
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In your price range you should be looking for Odyssey power amps for your Maggies. Lots of good clean power with no harshness. They will make your system sing.
+1
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I'm happy driving my 3.6/R's with AVA -an Insight bi-wired (precedes Synergy) with 225w@8 ohms.
http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=231
Thirty-day money back guarantee, so you can't go wrong. Silly good.
Mark
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I've always tried to buy used and look for whatever was the "newest, Best EVER!"... from 3 or 4 years ago. In my case, I needed power to drive a big line source and I asked some our AC members that tend to trade up every couple of years- those that churn equipment and narrowed my search to three amps. Then I waited... and waited until a Dodd, Moscode, or McCormack fell into my price range. I'd search out some of the AC members that have run several amps through their system and have a PM dialogue. The problem you run into on these threads is everyone recommends what they have. Personally, some of the amps mentioned are some that I've heard and not been impressed with.
My take is Moscode.... but guess what, I have a Moscode.
I just saw that there are a pair of NCore amps for sale here at AC way under your budget. I've never heard them, but I've heard good things from people whose opinions I respect. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=136742.0
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Check out older McCormack amps as well. There is a DNA-1 on audiogon right now for $800
app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-mccormack-dna-1-solid-state-amplifier-2015-08-23-amplifiers-43206-columbus-oh (http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-mccormack-dna-1-solid-state-amplifier-2015-08-23-amplifiers-43206-columbus-oh). 150 watts but it will drive maggies with authority.
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Moscode is a good choice, but don't overlook the Marashino's cherries amps. These are the best Class D amps that I have ever heard. They are almost impossible to find used ones, but check with the company and see if there are any demos that can be had.
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The AVA Synergy amps would be a good match. Its a nice sounding amp.
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We have a lot of Maggie customers who wanted affordable power so we recently brought in Emotiva to fill the void. So far we have been very impressed with their bang per buck and their ability to drive maggies.
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Thanks all for your contribution, I have edited the listed above according to your opinions so people like me can easily use as a reference list.
Apparently I’m in Australia and as you know, hifi brands are very limited here. I can’t hardly find a Odyssey, Moscode or AVA for sale.
In Australia I can find the below in a suitable price:
Wyred 4 Sound ST 1000 power amp
Bel Canto Ref 500M
Parasound A21
Emotiva
Among these I would pick either Bel Canto or Wyred 4 Sound due to their high input impedance (80-100k Ohm) so they can match well with my Prima Luna preamp.
Anyone have any idea on the Wyred 4 Sound power amp?
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I use a Wyred monoblock amp to drive my center channel (Thiel MCS1, 4 ohms, 3 min) and have no issues. I heard their integrated amp in someone's system before I bought it
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Hi,
While I have no long term experience with the Wyred 4 Sound amps (I have some venerable BEL 1001 mono blocks :D), their room sounded VERY good/musical at the 2014 show in Newport Beach California.
Harvey
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Thanks all for your contribution, I have edited the listed above according to your opinions so people like me can easily use as a reference list.
Apparently I’m in Australia and as you know, hifi brands are very limited here. I can’t hardly find a Odyssey, Moscode or AVA for sale.
In Australia I can find the below in a suitable price:
Wyred 4 Sound ST 1000 power amp
Bel Canto Ref 500M
Parasound A21
Emotiva
Among these I would pick either Bel Canto or Wyred 4 Sound due to their high input impedance (80-100k Ohm) so they can match well with my Prima Luna preamp.
Anyone have any idea on the Wyred 4 Sound power amp?
Remember that Odyssey is sold direct vs. via a dealer network. Products like that generally come at a lower cost. http://www.odysseyaudio.com/sales-international.html
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Go with the Bel Canto's.
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Thanks all for your contribution, I have edited the listed above according to your opinions so people like me can easily use as a reference list.
Apparently I’m in Australia and as you know, hifi brands are very limited here. I can’t hardly find a Odyssey, Moscode or AVA for sale.
In Australia I can find the below in a suitable price:
Wyred 4 Sound ST 1000 power amp
Bel Canto Ref 500M
Parasound A21
Emotiva
Among these I would pick either Bel Canto or Wyred 4 Sound due to their high input impedance (80-100k Ohm) so they can match well with my Prima Luna preamp.
Anyone have any idea on the Wyred 4 Sound power amp?
AVA and Odysey - mostly sold direct. Go to the websites and give them a call/email. For Odyssey, call in their evening hours. At both places you can talk to the head honcho on the phone and get the straight dope. Tell them your needs and budget and they will give your their best offer. No hard sell. Both companies make great amps and try to make customers happy.
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He would have to discuss shipping costs to Australia.
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Yes, obviously. But I also don't live in the States and had one shipped to me.
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Hi,
The majority of the amplifiers which have been recommended are if available probably double the price in Australia. Also second hand from the US isn't an option as their voltage 120 voltage, unless you can find someone to convert it to 240v50hz. I've checked out Australian distributor for Wyred 4 Sound and they don't have a return policy either. The aussie dollars is 70 cents to $1USD which is so low even compared to early 2015 making hifi purchases expensive.
I think your best options are to try odyssey or van alstine as they are direct and offer good value. Although I had a khartago and found it a step back for my system.
Cheers Rod
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The Bel Canto due to the power supply design, are compact and quite light ,thus saving shipping cost. I have seen many Bel Canto owners flipping them due to upgrades etc... Meaning they can be had quite affordably. If you have not read about the shipping nightmares that many people face with heavy amplification, perhaps the Bel Cantos will solve that problem.
Nevertheless, the biggest issue I find about these US Made recommendations is that you have no way of knowing how they might actually sound with your speakers. So you are shooting blind with some personal recommendations.
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Anyone with experience with the Benchmark ahb2, which has garnered quite a bit of very good press. 100 watts per channel, but able to be run bridged.
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Have you looked into Red Dragon Audio? Their new amps use the Pascal module. Their other traditional offerings use Bang & Olufsen Ice boards. They are in your ballpark.
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In a word…. Odyssey.
You’ll need to call Klaus directly to talk to him about your needs. A couple of things to consider are the different voltage & connections. For your budget, you may want to look at the Stratos stereo amplifier. http://odysseyaudio.com/products-stratos-stereo.html
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In 3 words, Klaus at Odyssey!
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I think I'm going to go with the D Sonic M3-1200S-A, 2 x 600w Price: $1,775.00, recommended to me by Magnestand mod master himself. According to him it has very deep lows, a tube like mid range and airy on top. It uses the ablatec module is used in the Swedish Marten M with sell for $45,000. He went on to say it's one of the best amps he's heard under 10 grand.
600 watts into 8 ohms, 1000 into 4
Sounds good to me!
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There's a 30 day return policy but you'll have to eat the 10% if you don't like them.
Let us know what you think.
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I have the M3-800M driving Joseph Audio RM25XL speakers and love them. I have been
doing this audio thing for 35 years and know what sounds good. Good Luck!
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Try a $375 Crown 2500 (770 watts into 4 ohm). It only weighs 13b, so, if after a blind tasting, against a $2000 amp, you judge it negatively, you can return to Amazon at minimal cost. Big possible potential savings though...
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I have had the McCormack DNA- 125, an Odyssey Stratos and own the A21. By far the A21 is the best with my Maggies. I would say the Pass would be in another league above these amps. I would only consider the Parasound and the Pass. I had problems with the other two amps.
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Glad to read that, because I just got an A-21 myself. I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet because my washing machine overflowed and I had to repair the water damage, and after seeing someone call the A-21 grainy in an early post, I was afraid I'd made a mistake -- I hate grainy amps.
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Try a $375 Crown 2500 (770 watts into 4 ohm). It only weighs 13b, so, if after a blind tasting, against a $2000 amp, you judge it negatively, you can return to Amazon at minimal cost. Big possible potential savings though...
Thank you! These are now down to $299 and there are only 18 left -- 17 now, since I bought one. It should be a great amp for my Tympani woofers, with the A-21 on the mid/tweeter panels. I'm skeptical of the highs on most Class D amps, but they're great for bass. Still, I'm curious, so I'll try swapping it with the A-21 to see how it does.
They're so cheap I'm tempted to buy two and bridge them . . .
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Thank you! These are now down to $299 and there are only 18 left -- 17 now, since I bought one. It should be a great amp for my Tympani woofers, with the A-21 on the mid/tweeter panels. I'm skeptical of the highs on most Class D amps, but they're great for bass. Still, I'm curious, so I'll try swapping it with the A-21 to see how it does.
They're so cheap I'm tempted to buy two and bridge them . . .
Bridging would be evil!
Yes, the bass is great (controlled) due to characteristically high damping factor. I think that everything else is fine too, based on my ears. Measurements won't reveal the defects, that's for sure.
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Really good synergy with Mags and Maraschino amps.... DC coupling gives you solid bass, and the imaging is simply wonderful.
Driving Mags mentioned here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127654.0
We have a few 48V (upgradeable) Desktop Maraschino demos in stock, less than $1500. We also have a pair of hanging Maraschinos (a.k.a. In-Line) for less than $1000!
Send me a PM if you're interested. Good luck either way. We love Magnepan!
-Tommy O
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Bridging would be evil!
Yes, the bass is great (controlled) due to characteristically high damping factor. I think that everything else is fine too, based on my ears. Measurements won't reveal the defects, that's for sure.
Man, bridging these sounds scary. :-) You could power a small city that way. I actually did end up ordering two, because otherwise I would have ended up staying up all night wondering if I should. So I'll sell my Emotiva, which I was planning to sell anyway, and come out even, except that I'll have two amps instead of one.
I've been reading through reviews and it looks like these really do have good sonics. I'm not planning to use them on the high end where Class D gets iffy, but it will be be interesting to compare them to the A-21. And they should rock in the bass!
They're going fast, too -- one friend ordered two for himself, another ordered two and the smaller 1000 (still a big amp) for his son -- that's another great bargain, only $179 on Amazon. Amazon should give you a commission!
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I've been reading through reviews and it looks like these really do have good sonics. I'm not planning to use them on the high end where Class D gets iffy, but it will be be interesting to compare them to the A-21.
Please, let me (us) know your thoughts, on the high end of these 'pro' D class amps. I'm old, and have much experience with dated, full class A and class A/B amps. And I tried couple of these with my Maggie 1.7s (not in the $2000 range; see previous post; http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137402.msg1461666#msg1461666). Their highs were not superior, for me. Overheating and clipping were a problem, but they are, again, old, and may not be representative at all.
The measured numbers however are on the side of class D. Objective testing, e.g. 'blinded' listening, is not a part of the 'audiophile' rating scale. It should be. 'Blind tasting' took California wines, in the 60s, from derision, to world class, overnight!
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Please, let me (us) know your thoughts, on the high end of these 'pro' D class amps. I'm old, and have much experience with dated, full class A and class A/B amps. And I tried couple of these with my Maggie 1.7s (not in the $2000 range; see previous post; http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137402.msg1461666#msg1461666). Their highs were not superior, for me. Overheating and clipping were a problem, but they are, again, old, and may not be representative at all.
The measured numbers however are on the side of class D. Objective testing, e.g. 'blinded' listening, is not a part of the 'audiophile' rating scale. It should be. 'Blind tasting' took California wines, in the 60s, from derision, to world class, overnight!
These cheap Class-D amps are what gives Class-D a bad name. Why compromise to save a few bucks? Ultra-high performance is only possible with experience and proper implementation. When Class-D is done RIGHT (very uncommon), the results are superior in many ways to other types of amps (Class-A/AB, tubes). Also, bench measurements can appear excellent with some newer Class-D amps, but this is done with gobs of negative feedback resulting in what I call ADCOM-ish Class-AB harshness. Just my 2-cents, but someone out there is likely to try and bite my head off because I speak my mind. Thanks for reading my post. (:
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Please, let me (us) know your thoughts, on the high end of these 'pro' D class amps. I'm old, and have much experience with dated, full class A and class A/B amps. And I tried couple of these with my Maggie 1.7s (not in the $2000 range; see previous post; http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137402.msg1461666#msg1461666). Their highs were not superior, for me. Overheating and clipping were a problem, but they are, again, old, and may not be representative at all.
The measured numbers however are on the side of class D. Objective testing, e.g. 'blinded' listening, is not a part of the 'audiophile' rating scale. It should be. 'Blind tasting' took California wines, in the 60s, from derision, to world class, overnight!
Thanks for the URL, that was an interesting post. I'm as curious as you are. There are so many variables in a setup like this that it's hard to make a fair comparison, Older amps may be need to be refurbished to sound their best (precision resistors and caps replaced, bias adjusted, etc.) It looks like there was something wrong with your Adcom -- it should have been able to do much more than 90 dB SPL! So not a fair comparison.
In ABX tests, modern conventional power amps can't be distinguished *if* they're operated within their linear range and frequency response is tweaked to compensate for impedance interactions. That definitely wasn't true when I was young and amps were comparatively primitive! Then, the differences were positively in your face. I'm not sure, though, that anyone tried this experiment with Class D amps, which are a different beast. And I'm not convinced that ABX tests are completely revealing of sonic differences, either, for reasons I won't go into here. In any case, there's nothing that says that a Class D amp can't be an audibly perfect device within its operating range. The audible problems have had to do with practical design issues and some Class D amps have a reputation for good sonics while others don't. So I'll be really curious to try this.
Meanwhile, a friend here emailed me to say that he'd tried the Crown pro amps (didn't say which ones) and that they did well with the MMG's but made the bass of the 3.7's weird. Perhaps because the MMG's can't be payed very loud without distorting? (I used to have a pair -- great speakers but not loud ones). So we'll have to see. I can always send them back to Amazon if they don't work out. Maggies are an easy load for a high current amp, but they're really revealing of problems with electronics.
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These cheap Class-D amps are what gives Class-D a bad name. Why compromise to save a few bucks? Ultra-high performance is only possible with experience and proper implementation. When Class-D is done RIGHT (very uncommon), the results are superior in many ways to other types of amps (Class-A/AB, tubes). Also, bench measurements can appear excellent with some newer Class-D amps, but this is done with gobs of negative feedback resulting in what I call ADCOM-ish Class-AB harshness. Just my 2-cents, but someone out there is likely to try and bite my head off because I speak my mind. Thanks for reading my post. (:
I've heard some awful Class D amps. Have you heard the Crowns, though? The remarks I'm seeing are variable as usual but there are a lot of comments that say they punch way above their price class.
I'm not planning to run these over 250 Hz but out of curiosity, I'm going to try running them full range and comparing them to the A-21.
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Please take a look at this review:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127654.msg1380885#msg1380885
This customer later upgraded to 3.7i with excellent results. He says he's experiencing the best sound he's ever heard.
In any case, we have a trial period in case you'd like to try Maraschinos risk-free. They are priced very low considering the level of refinement. Thanks again.
-Tommy O
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I suggest doing the 'blind' tasting, which has revealed, google it (age old argument, subjectivity versus objectivity), that 'golden ears' when thus challenged can't distinguish lamp cord from $100 a foot cable, or the cheapest receiver from high end preamp/amp. I'm a scientist, sorry, I'm into measurements and objectivity. And when humans are involved in a sensory (visual usually, or in this case auditory) rating, it has to be 'blinded', e.g. without knowledge of the decision maker of whether the specimen is the positive or negative control, or, in this case, expensive or inexpensive 'brand'.
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I suggest doing the 'blind' tasting, which has revealed, google it (age old argument, subjectivity versus objectivity), that 'golden ears' when thus challenged can't distinguish lamp cord from $100 a foot cable, or the cheapest receiver from high end preamp/amp. I'm a scientist, sorry, I'm into measurements and objectivity. And when humans are involved in a sensory (visual usually, or in this case auditory) rating, it has to be 'blinded', e.g. without knowledge of the decision maker of whether the specimen is the positive or negative control, or, in this case, expensive or inexpensive 'brand'.
I'm a big believer in blind testing (and so incidentally is Magnepan -- they won't put anything in their speakers until its been preferred by listening panels in a blind AB test, which I think is one of the reasons their new models are so reliably improvements over the old). And very aware of the research on confirmation bias -- Harman forex did a study in which subjects rated a cheap-looking speaker lower than an expensive looking one when they could see them, but not when they couldn't -- and this applied to every kind of listener, including audio engineers who were convinced that they were immune to such things!
And then there's the story of the student who arranged an AB comparison between a tube amp and a transistor amp, and all the tube fans preferred the tube amp while the transistor fans preferred the transistor amp -- until a professor opened up the box and noted that the switch didn't actually do anything.
Unfortunately, blind testing is kind of hard to carry out, I'd love to AB the two amps but that would require switching equipment that I don't have. So I typically use tricks to try to get around the subjective element, e.g., I'll ask people who don't know or care anything about audio what they think of an arrangement. Or I'll make my observations and then if the reviewer makes the same observation as they frequently do, it gives me confidence in my own.
But often, I just don't know -- am I really hearing a difference, or is it just my confirmation bias?
There are also limitations in the ABX switchbox. From a scientific perspective, it can demonstrate only one thing -- that a listener can observe a difference to a high degree of probability in a particular setup, or that he can't, *in that particular setup.* As with any experiment, there are numerous potential pitfalls, and while some experimenters are rigorous, many or not. So in general I find ABXing more useful for demonstrating that you *can* hear differences as demonstrating that you can't.
One illustration of this kind of limitation -- a study was conducted to assess the audibility of a lossy audio encoding scheme. Subjects were unable to hear it. Then an expert listener was brought in, and immediately and reliably identified which was which, because with his trained ears, he was able to hone in on the flaw.
Well, I could write a lot more on this but as I said I want to avoid that (already broke my promise, I guess). But I'd close with an observation which is that ABX testing usually *does* confirm that people can hear differences between equipment. Things that have been successfully ABX'd include sampling rate, power amps (subject to the conditions I mentioned), and op amps (as I recall correctly, the op amp in question didn't become audible until three are in series -- but it was common to have numerous op amps in the old analog recording consoles, and in the early days, some of them were seriously prone to slew limiting, e.g., the old 741).
And I have heard stuff that just would not show up in a typical ABX test -- some of it quite obvious. To use a blatant example, my right computer speaker buzzes sometimes, *only* on piano music and only when it's loud. Someone who didn't know that could ABX my left and right computer speakers all day and never hear a difference. And I can think of other such phenomena in audio, none of them mysterioso -- forex, a power supply flaw in the old Hafler DH-200 (identified years ago by Walt Jung in The Audio Amateur), resonances in planar drivers that are only audible on certain notes.
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I suggest doing the 'blind' tasting, which has revealed, google it (age old argument, subjectivity versus objectivity), that 'golden ears' when thus challenged can't distinguish lamp cord from $100 a foot cable, or the cheapest receiver from high end preamp/amp. I'm a scientist, sorry, I'm into measurements and objectivity. And when humans are involved in a sensory (visual usually, or in this case auditory) rating, it has to be 'blinded', e.g. without knowledge of the decision maker of whether the specimen is the positive or negative control, or, in this case, expensive or inexpensive 'brand'.
Great post! I agree ---- science!
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I'm a big believer in blind testing (and so incidentally is Magnepan -- they won't put anything in their speakers until its been preferred by listening panels in a blind AB test, which I think is one of the reasons their new models are so reliably improvements over the old). And very aware of the research on confirmation bias -- Harman forex did a study in which subjects rated a cheap-looking speaker lower than an expensive looking one when they could see them, but not when they couldn't -- and this applied to every kind of listener, including audio engineers who were convinced that they were immune to such things!
And then there's the story of the student who arranged an AB comparison between a tube amp and a transistor amp, and all the tube fans preferred the tube amp while the transistor fans preferred the transistor amp -- until a professor opened up the box and noted that the switch didn't actually do anything.
Unfortunately, blind testing is kind of hard to carry out, I'd love to AB the two amps but that would require switching equipment that I don't have. So I typically use tricks to try to get around the subjective element, e.g., I'll ask people who don't know or care anything about audio what they think of an arrangement. Or I'll make my observations and then if the reviewer makes the same observation as they frequently do, it gives me confidence in my own.
But often, I just don't know -- am I really hearing a difference, or is it just my confirmation bias?
There are also limitations in the ABX switchbox. From a scientific perspective, it can demonstrate only one thing -- that a listener can observe a difference to a high degree of probability in a particular setup, or that he can't, *in that particular setup.* As with any experiment, there are numerous potential pitfalls, and while some experimenters are rigorous, many or not. So in general I find ABXing more useful for demonstrating that you *can* hear differences as demonstrating that you can't.
One illustration of this kind of limitation -- a study was conducted to assess the audibility of a lossy audio encoding scheme. Subjects were unable to hear it. Then an expert listener was brought in, and immediately and reliably identified which was which, because with his trained ears, he was able to hone in on the flaw.
Well, I could write a lot more on this but as I said I want to avoid that (already broke my promise, I guess). But I'd close with an observation which is that ABX testing usually *does* confirm that people can hear differences between equipment. Things that have been successfully ABX'd include sampling rate, power amps (subject to the conditions I mentioned), and op amps (as I recall correctly, the op amp in question didn't become audible until three are in series -- but it was common to have numerous op amps in the old analog recording consoles, and in the early days, some of them were seriously prone to slew limiting, e.g., the old 741).
And I have heard stuff that just would not show up in a typical ABX test -- some of it quite obvious. To use a blatant example, my right computer speaker buzzes sometimes, *only* on piano music and only when it's loud. Someone who didn't know that could ABX my left and right computer speakers all day and never hear a difference. And I can think of other such phenomena in audio, none of them mysterioso -- forex, a power supply flaw in the old Hafler DH-200 (identified years ago by Walt Jung in The Audio Amateur), resonances in planar drivers that are only audible on certain notes.
Good point about the ABX! The switch box itself is inherently flawed.
One of the most important factors in blind tests is gain matching.
No such thing as a perfect comparison. Audio is as subjective as it gets.
I've often thought about using EEG to measure pleasure level. Now.... Which one made you feel best while listening? Hey, I could've been thinking better thoughts at some point, skewing the result. Great post. Thanks!
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I'm afraid that can't agree with the recommendations for Crown. In my system it sounded exactly like what it was, a cheap amp with limited musicality.
The original poster has a decent budget and an initial list that was well researched. I'd stick to that list and add a couple more- including Cherry and N-Core. All can be had for under $2k used.
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I've been using a Crown Xti with great success for a few years now, including with Maggie 1.7s and MMGs.
If there is a sonic difference between it and the more expensive amps I've tried I can't hear it.
Even better, the Xti and some other pro models have built-in EQ so you can correct speaker or room issues.
Mine is universal voltage so it works in Australia just fine.
Cost me $200.
The price difference between it and some of the other suggestions here is enough to upgrade to the next higher up Maggie.
I know what I'd do.
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While I can't recommend the Crown amps, they can be had on Amazon right now for a fraction of their recent retail price.
- http://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLS1000-Power-Amplifier/dp/B003HZPKSM
- http://www.amazon.com/Crown-DriveCore-XLS1500-Power-Amplifier/dp/B003HZV2JS
- http://www.amazon.com/XLS-2500W-XOVER-LIMTR-120V/dp/B003HZV2OI
They're going fast. Maybe they'll restock?
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As I said, the Crowns (and their pro brethren) may or may not be the best amps you can get. But the fact that the differences between them and some of the more audiophile approved amps are debatable at all indicates that they are, in the broad scheme of things, relatively minor.
Whereas no-one (I hope) would debate that the difference between the MMGs and the 1.7s is immediately obvious. Ditto the difference between the 1.7s and the 3.7s.
So, if you have MMGs, you can pay $1500 over the cost of a Crown for no difference or at best a minor one. Or you can use that $1500 to buy obviously better 1.7s. If you have 1.7s, that $1500 could buy used 3.7s.
As I said, if I had limited funds I know where I'd invest them.
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As I said, the Crowns (and their pro brethren) may or may not be the best amps you can get. But the fact that the differences between them and some of the more audiophile approved amps are debatable at all indicates that they are, in the broad scheme of things, relatively minor.
Whereas no-one (I hope) would debate that the difference between the MMGs and the 1.7s is immediately obvious. Ditto the difference between the 1.7s and the 3.7s.
So, if you have MMGs, you can pay $1500 over the cost of a Crown for no difference or at best a minor one. Or you can use that $1500 to buy obviously better 1.7s. If you have 1.7s, that $1500 could buy used 3.7s.
As I said, if I had limited funds I know where I'd invest them.
Mags are just about the most sensitive speakers to amplifier selection, especially the smaller panels.
Pro amps are designed for reliability and low cost, NOT sonics.
Are you really going to handicap such wonderful speakers to save something like $50/yr?
Almost every company has a return/trial policy. Buying direct gets you a LOT more hardware for the money.
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As I said, the Crowns (and their pro brethren) may or may not be the best amps you can get. But the fact that the differences between them and some of the more audiophile approved amps are debatable at all indicates that they are, in the broad scheme of things, relatively minor.
Well, this is an interesting question and maybe the answer to it isn't simple? Because I'm reading completely contradictory assessments of the Crowns, here and elsewhere. In fact, as I said, a friend here emailed me to say that the Crowns work wonderfully on his MMG's but not well at all on his 3.7's. And here's an interesting thread in which some sound reinforcement pros reach diametrically opposite conclusions about the cheap pro amps vs. the more expensive ones:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-crown-xls-drivecore-thread.79978/page-3
I'm guessing that people are talking past one another in that they've used the amps under radically different conditions. After all, any modern amp will sound pretty good *within its linear range*. They'll sound different because of impedance interactions that alter the frequency response, but those differences tend to be fairly subtle differences in tonal balance. That's the subtle part.
But a sound reinforcement guy who is using an amp in a stadium is going to be pushing it much harder than the typical home user. He'll be using it at the limits of capability and then he'll hear the difference between an expensive amp with an overbuilt power supply that can recover quickly from peak clipping and ride over voltage drops.
Even at home, people listen at very different levels, on speakers of varying efficiency. Subjectively, 1000 watts is only twice as loud as 100 watts and judging by the meter readings people have posted people listen at peak levels that differ by 10, 20, or even 30 dB. So you're talking a huge difference in demands on the amp.
MMG's start to sound unhappy when the SPL's get into the 90's, so most people aren't going to push them very hard, whereas 3.7's are clean at much higher levels. And Maggies are of course inefficient. So the 3.7's may in practice be stressing the Crown more than the MMG's.
I'll know better in a few days when I compare the Crown and the A-21's. In the meantime, it doesn't surprise me that people are having radically different experiences with the Crowns.
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Are you really going to handicap such wonderful speakers to save something like $50/yr?
Your "handicap"ing comment is based on subjective evaluation, yes? It gets tricky when you start bad-mouthing product based on subjectivity, yes?
I think most users can be trusted to make a value-based decision/evaluation here......sans agenda from an "AmpDesigner."
Dave.
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I think most users can be trusted to make a value-based decision/evaluation here...
Dave.
You mention "value-based decision", but ignore the original posters budget of $2000. In that price range there are many amps far superior to the Crown products. I realize that I can only speak for my ears and my system. But I've heard the Crown in my system, and it is not comparable to either Moscode or Dodd. It's just not that good... in my living room. Those that have it in their systems will sing it's praises, but my experience is that it's just not good enough for what I want to hear.
... But at this point I suspect that the original poster has tuned out this cacophony.
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I have followed this thread, but given it is for a price point I don't play in, I had not posted in it. I am happy with my Crown driving my 1.6's, but have no doubt that at 5-10x the price you can find better performance.
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You mention "value-based decision", but ignore the original posters budget of $2000. In that price range there are many amps far superior to the Crown products. I realize that I can only speak for my ears and my system. But I've heard the Crown in my system, and it is not comparable to either Moscode or Dodd. It's just not that good... in my living room. Those that have it in their systems will sing it's praises, but my experience is that it's just not good enough for what I want to hear.
... But at this point I suspect that the original poster has tuned out this cacophony.
I didn't ignore anything. His "value-based decision" will obviously have to fit in the $2000.00 price range. But, there isn't any low limit on that, is there?
Your subjective evaluation of the Crown amps is yours only.......but the Crown amps DO fit in that $2000 price range, and thus should not be excluded......subjective performance notwithstanding.
Maybe I have a $50,000 budget for a car. Does that mean I need to exclude a Toyota Camry from consideration???
Dave.
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.......but the Crown amps DO fit in that $2000 price range, and thus should not be excluded......
Dave.
Ahh, now we get down to it. Exactly which of these $2000 amps have you personally had in your system to compare to? Would you please describe the rest of your system while you listing your experience with amps?
All I can speak to is my experience. But are lots of AC members with more experience and better gear to judge with.
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You're getting sidetracked on a tangent. :)
Here's a scenario for you: You and I are listening/evaluating amplifier A driving speakers A. I like the sound and you don't. We remove amplifier A and install amplifier B (still speakers A) and now you like the sound and I don't.
Where does that leave us? What useful information can be gleaned for a third listener who wasn't in attendance? :)
If I were to tell you that amplifier A cost $10,000.00 and amplifier B cost $1,000.00, would that be relevant to our third person?
Do you see what I'm getting at? :)
Dave.
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I see that you have not answered my question. What is your experience with amplifiers in the $2K price class, and what is your equipment? Your answer to these questions bears directly on the validity of your opinion. I tend to trust those who have actually heard equipment in revealing systems. Guys like BigRedMachine, Art Smuck, Neo, the late Johnthechairguy, Dougs (now banned), etc. There are also a couple of pros with whom I've formed friendships with. I consult with them... Danny R and Dave E.
I'm not interested in the whole "it' too expensive for what you get" arguments, as that varies by individual. You say that amp A is great, I say it's not. I want to know what your background is so I can better judge the quality of your opinion.
I'll give you a good example. When I was looking for an amp for the GR-Research/AV123 LS9 speakers, I sent pm's to the guys I know that had those or related speakers. Based on their experience, I narrowed my list. Then I sent pm's to guys that were using those amps or had had them in their systems for extended periods.
What I didn't do was open a thread, where all you get is "my amp is best".
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Your question's premise is irrelevant.
You may have heard me say this on the forum previously, but I'll repeat it again. Subjective evaluation is, by definition, incontrovertible. There's no (real) basis for discussion.
My amplifier resume' is meaningless to you.....as is yours to me. In a listening comparison you and I might find ourselves agreeing about certain aspects.....maybe that amplifier A has powerful and smooth bass response...or laid back highs...or whatever. But who's to say that a third person doesn't think we're both full of it? :)
You're determined to talk specifics here.....but I've been talking in generalities on purpose. Do you see why?
Your intention seems to be to find out what amplifiers I've listened to so you can make a judgement and/or invalidate my amplifier listening prowess. Sorry, I'm not going to fall into that trap. :)
Back to the original query. He's just asking for opinions. Yours and mine are perfectly valid I suppose....but they're just opinions.
The Crown was mentioned......and you offered your opinion on it....FWIW. Now, maybe, you've irritated those users who are using the Crown amplifiers?
Cheers,
Dave.
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But who's to say that a third person doesn't think we're both full of it? :)
You are absolutely correct, sir. ;)
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You are absolutely correct, sir. ;)
Multiple ways your comment could be taken!
Excellent! :)
Dave.
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Your "handicap"ing comment is based on subjective evaluation, yes? It gets tricky when you start bad-mouthing product based on subjectivity, yes?
I think most users can be trusted to make a value-based decision/evaluation here......sans agenda from an "AmpDesigner."
Dave.
With a few decades in the pro audio industry, I feel DJ amps in general aren't adequate for audiophile use (:
-Tommy O
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"$2000 Power amps to drive Maggies" +- $500 includes:
Butler, Moscode, Jeff Rowland, McCormack, Bel Canto, Classe, Cherry, Dodd, BAT, NCore, Wyred4Sound, Krell, Bryston
This is from my experience and a quick look at Audiogon and USaudiomart. And from our own for sale section, Rogue and Pass can be added.
I'm sure others can add to the list.
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I've heard the DAC Maraschinos on my best friends 1.7s in a large basement.
Now don't tell my buddy but when I'm over I turn off his 15" Rhythmic sub and he doesn't notice.
The maggies fill the room with tight punchy deep bass like I can't believe. (The rest of the spectrum just stunning too).
I see there is 1 pr of Maras for < $1000. Simply amazing deal.
-Mike
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With a few decades in the pro audio industry, I feel DJ amps in general aren't adequate for audiophile use (:
-Tommy O
Yeah, just your opinion.
There is a lot of pro audio gear being used in the domestic environment nowadays. In many ways, folks in the pro audio world are light years ahead of those in the "high-end" audio industry. At least they don't have their heads in the sand like many high-end audio manufacturers do.
A couple of your amps look like they would fit the application for a $2000 amp to drive Maggies just fine. What's wrong with just advocating your own product?
Dave.
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I think this pair of Dodd 120's are still available. They are highly regarded and would drive Maggies nicely.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=136292.0
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Yeah, just your opinion.
There is a lot of pro audio gear being used in the domestic environment nowadays. In many ways, folks in the pro audio world are light years ahead of those in the "high-end" audio industry. At least they don't have their heads in the sand like many high-end audio manufacturers do.
A couple of your amps look like they would fit the application for a $2000 amp to drive Maggies just fine. What's wrong with just advocating your own product?
Dave.
I did. To sum it up, the Maraschino Cherry amp does VERY well with Mags of any size. Reasonable prices, sold direct for the best value. 30 day trial. Low impedance output, high speed/bandwidth, ultra low noise/THD, DC coupled, true balanced input, single ended adapters included, upgradable power supplies, proprietary component level proven design, high customer satisfaction. Designed by a world class engineer with decades of audio experience in both high end and pro. Thanks (:
-Tommy O / Digital Amp Co
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Tommy,
Now you're talking. Plus up your own designs and don't belittle the competition you mentioned. Good on you.
Easily available for a fella in Australia like Kyle?
Regarding Dodd amplifiers. I haven't been paying much attention in other Circles, but what is the outlook on support and repair for those amplifiers at this point? Will the schematics/spares/etc be made available so users can service them or have them serviced by qualified repair shops?
Dave.
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It's been my experience that the larger Maggies are the ones that are more demanding of component quality, the smaller ones aren't nearly as revealing. My MMGs sound good with anything I've thrown at them including the Crown amplifier which I'm currently using. That worked out just great.
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Tommy,
Now you're talking. Plus up your own designs and don't belittle the competition you mentioned. Good on you.
Easily available for a fella in Australia like Kyle?
Regarding Dodd amplifiers. I haven't been paying much attention in other Circles, but what is the outlook on support and repair for those amplifiers at this point? Will the schematics/spares/etc be made available so users can service them or have them serviced by qualified repair shops?
Dave.
Yes, we ship worldwide. Thanks.
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I'll second the Cherry products. While I have not heard the new Cherry maraschino I can say the original Cherry jr with Maggie's was awesome. I think they still have that build in stock.
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I see that you have not answered my question. What is your experience with amplifiers in the $2K price class, and what is your equipment? Your answer to these questions bears directly on the validity of your opinion. I tend to trust those who have actually heard equipment in revealing systems. Guys like BigRedMachine, Art Smuck, Neo, the late Johnthechairguy, Dougs (now banned), etc. There are also a couple of pros with whom I've formed friendships with. I consult with them... Danny R and Dave E.
I'm not interested in the whole "it' too expensive for what you get" arguments, as that varies by individual. You say that amp A is great, I say it's not. I want to know what your background is so I can better judge the quality of your opinion.
I'll give you a good example. When I was looking for an amp for the GR-Research/AV123 LS9 speakers, I sent pm's to the guys I know that had those or related speakers. Based on their experience, I narrowed my list. Then I sent pm's to guys that were using those amps or had had them in their systems for extended periods.
What I didn't do was open a thread, where all you get is "my amp is best".
Davey's a little too modest to answer your question, so I will.
He has a lot more experience with amp-hungry planars like Maggies and Apogee than most, being a valued member of numerous forums for many years. He's designed his own amps and active crossovers (including mods for Maggies I believe), and is currently responsible for the digital implementation of the Linkwitz LX521 crossovers.
And your good self?
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My system is described under Systems just under my avatar.
I've expressed opinions on amps that I have had in my system only.
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It looks like we have:
Aaron
AVA
Bel Canto
Bryston
Crown
Digital Amp Co
Dodd
D Sonic
McCormack
McIntosh
Moscode
NCore
Odyssey
Outlaw Audio
Parasound
Pass
Red Dragon Audio
Threshold
Vincent
Wyred 4 Sound
And if the OP is still around, what did you end up doing?
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And if the OP is still around, what did you end up doing?
Going to a quiet place and drinking hemlock? :-)
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Going to a quite place and drinking hemlock? :-)
:lol:
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I happen to know the OP bought a Prima Luna Dialogue Integrated amp and
is quite happy with it. If he’s drinking anything it’s in front of his audio system..
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The problem with this type of (OP) query is that a long laundry list of suitable devices soon emerges and it doesn't really help....ultimately.
Soon you have posturing, defensive posts, etc ,etc ensuing all based on subjective evaluation, and the thread devolves.
The answer to the original query is......there are many amps that would work well. Simplistic, and not the answer most want to hear, but accurate. It's just not black and white.
There are way too many entrenched ideas and opinions that are bandied about willy-nilly on forums like this. Also, there is a lot of selling/shilling going on at AC.....people should keep that in mind as well.
I would like to see OP's report back on threads like this so they can inform everybody of their decision. It's a courtesy thing. However, I understand that he might be busy drinking in front of his audio system. :)
Cheers,
Dave.
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We're getting close to the edge folks.
Doc
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I agree, time to bring this one to a close.
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Concerning Crown XLS 2500 amps:
Thank you! These are now down to $299 and there are only 18 left -- 17 now, since I bought one. It should be a great amp for my Tympani woofers, with the A-21 on the mid/tweeter panels. I'm skeptical of the highs on most Class D amps, but they're great for bass. Still, I'm curious, so I'll try swapping it with the A-21 to see how it does.
They're so cheap I'm tempted to buy two and bridge them . . .
Well, they weren't so cheap when I bought mine, so I went with 2 XLS 1500 amps... and bridge them. BWAHAHA... My system is currently torn apart as I've moved it into the house and an upcoming furniture arrival required the system moved from the center of the room so they're not tripped on. But my take when I bought them is that grain wasn't any worse than the Apt-1 power amps I was previously using (also bridged). The effortless power is really nice, though - my Gunned MMGs sing 10 dB louder than they did with the Apt-1's if I want them to - which is rarely. That said, after I re-optimize the stereo placement, I'll re-experiment comparing the XLS-1500's to the Apt-1's and report back on sonic comparisons. Now if anyone wants to lend me a Parasound A-21 for the team... ;-)
MGbert
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One last comment. I have not read a thing in this thread about what preamps are being used. I realize that the Crown amps are integrated but most of the other amps being mentioned need preamps which clearly makes a big difference when comparing amps.
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Concerning Crown XLS 2500 amps:
Well, they weren't so cheap when I bought mine, so I went with 2 XLS 1500 amps... and bridge them. BWAHAHA... My system is currently torn apart as I've moved it into the house and an upcoming furniture arrival required the system moved from the center of the room so they're not tripped on. But my take when I bought them is that grain wasn't any worse than the Apt-1 power amps I was previously using (also bridged). The effortless power is really nice, though - my Gunned MMGs sing 10 dB louder than they did with the Apt-1's if I want them to - which is rarely. That said, after I re-optimize the stereo placement, I'll re-experiment comparing the XLS-1500's to the Apt-1's and report back on sonic comparisons. Now if anyone wants to lend me a Parasound A-21 for the team... ;-)
MGbert
Amps have arrived and my speakers should be reassembled today (I pulled off the old socks to check the condition of the planar drivers), so I should be able to report back soon. Right now, I'm trying to come up with a quick external crossover solution so I can compare the amps on the woofer panels -- although I'll do a full-range comparison too. I could do the XO in the computer but I don't have a multichannel DAC so I'd have to use motherboard audio, and I'm not sure that's good enough for a valid comparison.
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One last comment. I have not read a thing in this thread about what preamps are being used. I realize that the Crown amps are integrated but most of the other amps being mentioned need preamps which clearly makes a big difference when comparing amps.
The Crown XLS series are not integrated amps, they are basic amps with gain controls like most (all?) pro gear.
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The Crown XLS series are not integrated amps, they are basic amps with gain controls like most (all?) pro gear.
My error but you get my point.
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Hi guys,
I do apologize as I forgot to write a review to sum up the thread.
After reading your opinions I decided to go with a Primaluna tube preamp and a pair of Bel Canto Ref500M. On the day I went to a dealer to audition the setup, the owner asked me a few questions about my room size, speakers.. etc and he suggested a Primaluna Dialogue Integrated amp instead. He then gave me an audition with a pair of Elac FS247 and Martin Logan Ethos. I was convinced and finally ended up buying it.
Now I'm a happy camper with the Dialogue Integrated driving my Maggies with ease. I still need to work on cables and small upgrade but so far I can say I'm settle down with the core items (amp and speakers).
Thanks for all advice and opinions and happy listening!
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That is a very nice piece!
You either got a great deal, or you may have cheated a little on the $.
I always wonder what ~40wpc of tubes would sound like on my 1.6's - let us know how it goes.
Nicely done.
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40 watts ...! listening at 1M might work ..... :green:
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That is a very nice piece!
You either got a great deal, or you may have cheated a little on the $.
I always wonder what ~40wpc of tubes would sound like on my 1.6's - let us know how it goes.
Nicely done.
I also doubt it when reading its specs, so I'm thinking go with tube pre-ss power amp but when I audition it, it 100% convinced me. The auditioning room (around 6 x 8 metres) is bigger than my living room and it drives the Martin Logans easily. My listening room is 4 x 6 and listening position is 2.5m from the speakers.
40wpc tube amp is around 100wpc on solid state amp I think...
PS: I did get a very good deal on the amp though...
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Good for you. There's magic in those glowing bottles (to swipe a line from a buddy).
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I'll second the Cherry products. While I have not heard the new Cherry maraschino I can say the original Cherry jr with Maggie's was awesome. I think they still have that build in stock.
You really should take a listen to Maraschino if you like the Classic Cherry sound. Still smooth and tube-like, but faster, more BW, and DC coupled for that "deep bass from a panel" sound.... Works especially well with Mags! Thanks for your kind post (: