AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: dB Cooper on 22 Nov 2018, 08:05 pm
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I'll start by saying that I don't spin vinyl and don't especially miss it, but have nothing against it or its advocates.
The linked piece has some intriguing theories as to why some prefer one or the other.
Article here (https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile/high-resolution-digital-verses-analog-vinyl-technical-superiority-meets-experiential-optimization.html?fbclid=IwAR1OgKEd9KD2DdnDjTSFhHZkEliGJM6hUfCeNCElF1mabTX6SqblTrFR0Go)
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A fun and interesting read. This paragraph jumped out at me: "When you look at a wide range of human activities that require peak performance or peak awareness, you'll find that ritual or habitual processes play a big part in the human preparation process, whether that is religious activity, high-performance sports, or in an audiophile's case, listening to music."
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I play both vinyl and CDs. (note I don't stream, or use downloads at all.)
CD is far more convenient.. by a mile.
As for sound quality.. I used to say the system I own, LP had the advantage... Until I bought recent toys. Then CD playback became a lot better. However with the latest gadgets LP has caught back up with CD.
They are just different animals. And yes there is a lot more putzing with Lps. For some folks that may put them in a frame of mind to better appreciate the music. Maybe.
For me it is just a chore needing to be done.
I agree about paying attention though. there is way less musical enjoyment when I am doing two things.. listening and ... something else. (like now, typing an answer)
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I hear vinyl at shows, and am often impressed by the sound capabilities of this (literally) antique technology. But....Being of a certain age, I am fully familiar with the downsides: The SQ that deteriorates just a little with every play; the clicks and pops that creep in no matter how fastidious you are about care (they spoil the illusion for me, as they did listening to the megabuck von Schweikert/VAC system at CAF), and the numerous other shortcomings. For me, that stuff ruins the 'magic' often cited as the rationale for vinyl. And the 'rituals' just feel more and more like 'chores' to me as time goes on. But to each his/her own, and I'd rather listen to a worn-out LP on a 'mid-fi' system than crappy music on a state-of-the-art setup.
Elizabeth:My source material is nearly 100% computer based at this point, both local sound files and lossless streaming, not counting some occasional FM listening (sadly a dying music delivery method unfortunately; notice you never see a thread about tuners or FM here).
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Digital Vs Analogue they are both good and different, at the end of the day it comes down to preferences. With regard to home reproduction anyone that says one sounds better than the other, all I can say is they have not heard a good example of the other.
Yes one is far more convenient over the other, I cannot argue about that. I have gigs and gigs of music on my NAS server, I can not remember the last time I play any of them.
With regard to noise, the better the turntable the lower the noise floor. With regard to clicks and pops, if your records are clean and on a good turntable again the less of this click and pop you will notice.
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With regard to noise, the better the turntable the lower the noise floor. With regard to clicks and pops, if your records are clean and on a good turntable again the less of this click and pop you will notice.
I have heard these 'fireplace noises' fairly consistently in every vinyl setup I've ever heard, including the system in the von Schweikert/VAC room at CAF. That TT and cart came to a combined >$65K (not including the phono stage, an additional $80K). That is a lot more then any system I ever owned, but the problem seemed to be about the same. If I was demoing equipment like that, I'd sure AF bring the most flawless records I had. In fairness though, an attendee could have brought the LP that was playing with them.
Anyway, this is why- if I was spinning- the price of this AVA unit seems to me like a rational amount of money to drop on a phono stage.
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Well something is not right there. I had a friend come round mine a while back and was surprised that I had turntable. I played some records for her and she said where are the clicks and pops as that is what she expected, I have to go and find some old not so well looked after records to play her.
Well with demoing high-end setup in shows, yes you need good pressings but also you have to play not so audiophile records as that is what most people have and they want a good representation of what happened in the real world.
The most quiet background I have ever heard on a turntable was on the Acoustical Systems Apolyt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRjhiSSavWE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRjhiSSavWE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nh3WAO0Okk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nh3WAO0Okk)
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There is the Linn vs. Digital challenge of 1984.
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm
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I get so annoyed with the claims of "pops". You may hear one or two at the beginning when you cue it up but everything sounds great to me when it is playing.
I buy cheap records (price wise) and I don't hear a whole lot of "pops" when I play it on my level of turntable (Nottingham Analogue Innerspace Jr.) nor when I play them on a pair of Technics 1200's). I have 12 inch singles that are well used and haven't been cleaned like they should and don't have any "pops".
The people who complain about "pops" need to be "popped" in the head.
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Interesting premise in the article.
As one who grew up listening to lp records, I don't miss "the ritual" at all. I rarely listen to records now. When I do though, I go through most of the ritual noted in the article. Does it enhance my listening experience? I can't say I notice one way or the other. I will say I find the need to get up and flip the record after twenty minutes annoying.
As for ticks and pops, I don't really notice them as much as I expect. And my records are mostly old and well used. I did give them all a thorough cleaning a while back. Unless the pop comes at a critical time, or is fairly loud, I seem to listen past it.
Lastly, which sounds better? Too many variables.
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Until I see some proper research from cognitive scientists and hearing specialists, these kinds of articles can't be taken seriously. It comes off as just more of the typical and condescending pseudo-science approach to categorizing people who like anything that is not considered 'technically superior' (as defined of course, by the persons making the claim). Like some David Attenborough clip where an adorable but befuddled creature is observed engaging in ritualistic behavior that they can't help but perform. Another way to say that if you prefer analog it's not because it's better than digital because it *obviously* can't be, it's because you are just too emotionally wrapped up in the subjective experience to make a rational obvious conclusion that digital playback is better.
Yes, it would be great if Sean Olive weighed in. It would also be great if we focused on the important aspects of his work that conveniently gets ignored with these contentious topics - like the importance of training ourselves to listen.
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I get so annoyed with the claims of "pops". You may hear one or two at the beginning when you cue it up but everything sounds great to me when it is playing.
The irony of the claims about constant pops and clicks is that in the digital realm what do audiophiles talk about? Noise. Some are downright *obsessed* with noise. Be it in terms of reducing 'digititis' or harmonic distortion or, well, clicks and pops there too. In fact for a medium that is so superior there sure is an extraordinary amount of time and energy spent on every aspect of the delivery. From power supplies to storage/source drive to output design from the dac. And I say this as someone who enjoys tinkering with all that.
With vinyl you pretty much nail a good table and cart and you're done.
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One aspect of the digital vs album debate that does not get that much discussion is the price of streaming, price of CDs, price of Albums. I looked at a Music Direct catalog at album prices and they charge a small fortune for these premium albums. One reason I switched to digital is to expose myself to new music, I can listen to it as I stream and the cost is $15 a month. If I bought those albums, well I would not be able to afford them and don’t have the space. Tidal and MQA give me a lot of flexibility, musical enjoyment and at a price I can afford.
And yes the pops and clicks, maybe from dirty record grooves, did annoy me but I don’t hear that on the digital side. Not a game changing factor for me but the overall cost of purchasing a high end turntable, tonearm, cartridge and albums I think is quite high.
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I play both vinyl and CDs. (note I don't stream, or use downloads at all.)
CD is far more convenient.. by a mile.
As for sound quality.. I used to say the system I own, LP had the advantage... Until I bought recent toys. Then CD playback became a lot better. However with the latest gadgets LP has caught back up with CD.
They are just different animals. And yes there is a lot more putzing with Lps. For some folks that may put them in a frame of mind to better appreciate the music. Maybe.
For me it is just a chore needing to be done.
I agree about paying attention though. there is way less musical enjoyment when I am doing two things.. listening and ... something else. (like now, typing an answer)
X2 ..................
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For myself, it's all about all the vinyl I have collected over the years. It is true that you can remember where you bought that album, where you first heard it, the great artwork, etc. I probably listen to 80 percent computer files, and 20 percent analog. But when listening to digital files, I rarely get to the end of a song before I move on. It's SO CONVENIENT! When I listen to vinyl, I know my behind is in that seat for 15 minutes, like the songs or not. It's a 15 minute vacation.
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To start 'today'... I would say the only way to go is streaming. BUT.. Anyone with a lifetime of collecting music (like me) has the music at hand. So for those of use with a big collection of music, there is less incentive to stream. though folks who always like new music (even if they have a big collection) certainly will want to also stream music.
Complaints about new records costing? "IF" you would have been collecting LP back in the late 90's to eary 2000s.. They were basically giving them away. I bought boxes full from Half price books at $0.15 each or $0.10 each. MINT looking prized ones, not the junk! (OK yeah some I paid a buck a pop for, when they were really great LPs.) And at other local used record stores many items of great Jazz, $2. (I would say a third of all my LP 5 star rated in reviews Jazz I own I paid $2 a pop for. immaculate, no marks, no scratches of any kind. And another third no more than $5.
So very different NOW, than back when LP were thought of as has been. TODAY, that market is CD.
Now, used CDs are dirt cheap. And personally If I wanted any more, I would be buying them up. So in another ten years, when the craze jumps to CDs... (again) well you'll be set.
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Elizabeth- I understand your reasons for being a vinyl lover and I would too (if I had all those record albums). So your investment, if you started from scratch would not be that much. Got me to thinking if I did have stacks of cash laying around, what would I do and for how much $$$? Well for a budget system- maybe a VPI Prime $4000, a VPI phono preamp at $500, Cartridge around $1000 and all the coolest VPI accessories $1,300. With a Okki Nokki record cleaning machine $500, I am at about $7,300. But if I take another pile of cash I might get a Palmer 2.5i turntable with Audio Origami PU7 arm for about $14,000 and cartridge for $2000. That or the VPI HW-40 40th Anniversary DD turntable for around $15,000 and add $3000 for a good cartridge. That and the record cleaner, accessories plus the Parasound JC3 phono preamp will cost me around $22,800. The only thing left is at least my first 10 record albums. The average cost of a good album at 180g is $30. Therefore that will be $300. So my first budget rig will cost about $9000 with tax, but the rig I really want will cost from $20,500 to $24,000.
I think I spent a total of $1,700 on a Benchmark and Schitt DAC and a combined cost of $2,000 on a new Rega Apollo CD player and used Sony ES CD player. Also I have $600 in HDD and a Bluesound Node 2 for $500. So that is around $4,800 for digital in two audio systems.
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No-one should be getting into vinyl without a record collection in need of playback gear. If you're starting out with no software, most people today will probably go with streaming, although if their rationale is it's less expensive, they're fooling themselves.
Hundreds of dollars a year for streaming, and it could be many hundreds if you also subscribe to Sat Radio, or if you need a Cellular Data Plan to stream other than in the home ... I tend to cost things out in 10-year increments, so that's a four figure investment in "software" that you don't own and can't access without continuing to pay the rent.
You can build a nice vinyl collection for that kind of scratch, and if you buy CDs you could probably have thousands to play with. And I've been in this hobby since I bought my first component system at age 14 ... so nearly five of those 10-year chunks.
But ... the deal with vinyl is it can sound stunningly good, but aside from that it consists of who-knows-how-many thousands of albums that will never be released in a digital form. If you want that music, you have to get the vinyl rig.
I would caution people against thinking you need megabuck vinyl rigs just because that's what the magazines review. A $2,000 phono preamp, turntable, tonearm, cartridge, and tweaks is a very competent system. Half that is still worthy of a high end system. Remember, most audio reviewers have other jobs, and they're not valet parking jobs either. If $10,000 is less than 10% of your income, as it is with most reviewers, sure, get the big stuff. But be realistic.
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I stream from youtube….yes you heard me right...because you cant beat free. :lol:
I can even listen to vinyl and its sounds pretty good > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cINm1zW7yd0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cINm1zW7yd0
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I would caution people against thinking you need megabuck vinyl rigs just because that's what the magazines review.
These are true words, you just need to choose and match wisely. I have heard very expensive systems that sound like crap because people have not done their homework.
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These are true words, you just need to choose and match wisely. I have heard very expensive systems that sound like crap because people have not done their homework.
Our past moderator, John The Chair Guy, sang praises of the inexpensive JVC QL-F6 (with minor mods) as a $150 table and arm that hung with the big boys... and it does. Add a used $3-400 cartridge,a Herbies mat, a Vista preamp, and you've got a very respectable vinyl rig for well under $1K. There are lots of ways to go to find excellence in vinyl for under $2K.
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Our past moderator, John The Chair Guy, sang praises of the inexpensive JVC QL-F6 (with minor mods) as a $150 table and arm that hung with the big boys... and it does. Add a used $3-400 cartridge,a Herbies mat, a Vista preamp, and you've got a very respectable vinyl rig for well under $1K. There are lots of ways to go to find excellence in vinyl for under $2K.
What would be a modern version of a $1K-$2K?
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Honestly, I don't know if there is one. In general, new gear just doesn't offer the bang for buck of used gear. The QL-f6 has better speed stability than the older Technics 1200 and a far superior arm. I don't know how much better the new 1200 is, but I think it's price is at the upper end of your range. But/ there soooo many older models that perform way above their price. Do your due diligence looking at the upper range of Denon, JVC/Victor, Yamaha, Technics, Kenwood, Empire and lots more. Excellent tables pop up starting at around $250. Even the highly regarded Technics SP10 MKII are available close to a thousand bucks.
It's just been a couple of weeks that I saw this very nice table that sold for peanuts...
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160616.0
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I would say old tables are great. The one problem may be old TTs that have electronic speed control. Those 20 30 year old capacitors are gonna' die soon if not already dead.
Getting them repaired may be a challenge.
The other problem with old TTs is the demand is higher than the supply recently, so the prices are kind of high.
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Honestly, I don't know if there is one. In general, new gear just doesn't offer the bang for buck of used gear. The QL-f6 has better speed stability than the older Technics 1200 and a far superior arm. I don't know how much better the new 1200 is, but I think it's price is at the upper end of your range. But/ there soooo many older models that perform way above their price. Do your due diligence looking at the upper range of Denon, JVC/Victor, Yamaha, Technics, Kenwood, Empire and lots more. Excellent tables pop up starting at around $250. Even the highly regarded Technics SP10 MKII are available close to a thousand bucks.
It's just been a couple of weeks that I saw this very nice table that sold for peanuts...
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160616.0
Don't rub it in!
:x
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I would say old tables are great. The one problem may be old TTs that have electronic speed control. Those 20 30 year old capacitors are gonna' die soon if not already dead.
Getting them repaired may be a challenge.
The other problem with old TTs is the demand is higher than the supply recently, so the prices are kind of high.
This is a valid concern. But there are plenty of options for recapping at moderate cost, and the IC chips seem to be stable if not involved in a failure cascade.
If you pick up something like an SP-10 for a grand, or a Victor TT-81 for $600, and spend a $1-200 getting it recapped, you've got your nice and reliable TT for way cheaper than equivalent new gear.
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To be honest if I was starting today, I don’t know if I would go the vintage route. I would not want to deal with the trying to get it all service and working to the best it can. If I was going to buy old / vintage I would want something simple with fewer things to go wrong, a turntable like the one I have which the motor / speed controller is completely separate from the turntable itself.
I personally would go without for a bit longer so I can save a bit more money to buy something new that is good. Vintage is hassle and most people don’t want to deal with it and all the uncertainties that goes with it, are you going to end up with a lemon that will cost you a fortune to get running or something that works with little effort and little outlay? You don’t know.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149740)
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The real vintage to avoid at all costs are 'not fully working' record changers. They are complex, hard to get working once they have broken, and usually parts, particularly SPRINGS, are impossible to match if they are missing. The other really bad thing to avoid is any used TT with no counterweight. The money you saved buying it, you will spend triple (but only if very very lucky to find a replacement) for that little forgotten weight.
On the other hand...
Buying a once very expensive CD player, now 'only' a thousand dollars, or two...
Run AWAY!! Yeah you may get lucky, but 50/50 you will not be lucky. and soon own a doorstop you paid a thou for.
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I personally would go without for a bit longer so I can save a bit more money to buy something new that is good. Vintage is hassle and most people don’t want to deal with it and all the uncertainties that goes with it, are you going to end up with a lemon that will cost you a fortune to get running or something that works with little effort and little outlay? You don’t know.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149740)
But we aren't talking about a "bit" more money. Not everyone will put the resources into vinyl that TooCool4 has in his. As far as that "lemon that will cost a fortune" I could replace a very high end Victor TT-81 TEN TIMES for the cost of the turntable shown above... and another 10X for the cost of the tonearm.
Even a more modest VPI Scout is a couple of grand. And many 1980's tables match up very favorably to the Scout, IMHO.
Fortunately, our hobby is big enough for value guys as well as the 1%'ers.
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On the other hand...
Buying a once very expensive CD player, now 'only' a thousand dollars, or two...
Run AWAY!! Yeah you may get lucky, but 50/50 you will not be lucky. and soon own a doorstop you paid a thou for.
Yes I agree with you, when that laser goes it’s going to cost you a fortune to get a new one fitted.
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But we aren't talking about a "bit" more money. Not everyone will put the resources into vinyl that TooCool4 has in his. As far as that "lemon that will cost a fortune" I could replace a very high end Victor TT-81 TEN TIMES for the cost of the turntable shown above... and another 10X for the cost of the tonearm.
Going without or staying with lesser for a bit longer does make sense to me. When I bought my Acoustic Solid, I had a Roksan Xerxes I just stayed with it for longer to save more money. When I make an upgrade, I like to make a big one as incremental upgrades are a waste of money in my opinion. When I did buy the Acoustic Solid One to One, I kept my Roksan Artemiz tonearm and Roksan Shiraz cartridge for a while longer to save up for the Dynavector DV507MK-II arm and EMT JSD S 75 cartridge.
That is what I mean by waiting a bit longer, the way I saw it was the longer wait will be worth it and worth it a lot more than the instant gratification of the lesser stuff.
I know not everyone will put as much money into it like i did, but you can see what i mean. The same rational still works on a lower scale and even on a higher scale too.
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The real vintage to avoid at all costs are 'not fully working' record changers. They are complex, hard to get working once they have broken, and usually parts, particularly SPRINGS, are impossible to match if they are missing. The other really bad thing to avoid is any used TT with no counterweight. The money you saved buying it, you will spend triple (but only if very very lucky to find a replacement) for that little forgotten weight.
On the other hand...
Buying a once very expensive CD player, now 'only' a thousand dollars, or two...
Run AWAY!! Yeah you may get lucky, but 50/50 you will not be lucky. and soon own a doorstop you paid a thou for.
But, is it really that bad of a purchase? You buy a previously crazy expensive transport for cheap and get some use out of it. It shouldn't break because it is high end, right? I got handed a cheap Sony DVD player and it still plays. Thinking about grabbing someone's Marantz Blu-Ray and it shouldn't crap out that quick either.
If I could have grabbed that Victor, I know someone who could have fixed it for me. But, any modern transport should be at least some what reliable.
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Many vinyl fans here who state that one does not have to spend that much money for good sound, using examples of vintage TTs. I wonder how much each person has spent on their personal vinyl rig. I mean what is the cost of your daily TT, tonearm, cartridge and phono amp. I will excuse the ones with playback systems over $50k.
Not knocking digital or vinyl fans at all, I have about $5k invested total in two digital systems, what would I expect to spend for a TT setup of reasonable or better sound?
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Not knocking digital or vinyl fans at all, I have about $5k invested total in two digital systems, what would I expect to spend for a TT setup of reasonable or better sound?
I"ve got two systems with three tables.
Vyger Timor w/ Jasmine motor, two arms- Pioneer P3 and Jelco 370, cartridges are Dynavector 20x2L and quintet, phono pre -Vista MC and Dodd Phono --~ $3K all things but the Dodd and the Jelco were purchased used.
Second system- Technics SP10 MKii (came with a Syntec s-220 tonearm suited for a heavy mono Denon DL102) and a JVC QL-F6 w/ Dynavector 10x5.. Phono stages are Graham Slee gold, and Vista. All purchased used or trade except the Dynavector Cost-~ $1350
So three turntables, 4 arms, 4 cartridges, 4 preamps for about $3350.
Latest project is recapping a Victor TT-81 to match with a new Jelco 750- about $1k and a damn fine rig.
If I wanted to consolidate, I could get by with the SP-10, the Pioneer arm and the Syntec arm to play stereo and mono. I'd keep a Vista and the Dodd, the 20x2L and the Denon 102. Cost would be around $2800... or I could play the JVC and the Dynavector 10x5 and the Vista for under $500 and be pretty happy with the sound.
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But, is it really that bad of a purchase? You buy a previously crazy expensive transport for cheap and get some use out of it. It shouldn't break because it is high end, right? I got handed a cheap Sony DVD player and it still plays. Thinking about grabbing someone's Marantz Blu-Ray and it shouldn't crap out that quick either.
If I could have grabbed that Victor, I know someone who could have fixed it for me. But, any modern transport should be at least some what reliable.
I have two digital set-ups, one a Marantz Blu-Ray. The sound is not bad at all.
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I have two digital set-ups, one a Marantz Blu-Ray. The sound is not bad at all.
What I was questioning was the comment of buying used expensive transports and them breaking quickly and related it to cheap ones. Not the sound of any of them.
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What I was questioning was the comment of buying used expensive transports and them breaking quickly and related it to cheap ones. Not the sound of any of them.
That is not what Elizabeth is saying, she is saying if / when it packs up down the road it can and often cost a fortune to fix and sometimes you can’t get it fixed hence you end up with a very expensive doorstop.
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I only bought the cheaper Marantz players that now sells for $200 or less on Ebay, no $2000 units.
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Many vinyl fans here who state that one does not have to spend that much money for good sound, using examples of vintage TTs. I wonder how much each person has spent on their personal vinyl rig. I mean what is the cost of your daily TT, tonearm, cartridge and phono amp. I will excuse the ones with playback systems over $50k.
Not knocking digital or vinyl fans at all, I have about $5k invested total in two digital systems, what would I expect to spend for a TT setup of reasonable or better sound?
I know nothing about your digital set up but IMO if one wants to do analog (starting from scratch today makes zero sense IMO) you need....
TT/arm, cart, cabling, phono-pre, RCM / cleaning gear. All that (new), 2-3k min. , realistically double that or more IMO.
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twitch54 you can do it for far less than that.
I do kind of agree with you about starting from scratch today, why would you bother but saying that it’s far easier with record players than a tape deck or a Reel to reel player. At least with records, you can still get new records / record players. With tape decks and reel to reel, good luck.
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Vinyl is great for those of us that already have thousands of records. If I was starting from scratch, I think I'd be streaming. As far as I'm concerned the over-riding concern is the music... and I've got lots more of it on vinyl than digital.
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That is not what Elizabeth is saying, she is saying if / when it packs up down the road it can and often cost a fortune to fix and sometimes you can’t get it fixed hence you end up with a very expensive doorstop.
It sounded like the percentage was high of it breaking. I was questioning it breaking that fast. Do we not get our money's use out of it? Buy a expensive used transport and use it. If it does break, you look for another $1K used expensive transport.
Because, I bet people lose more money on upgrading equipment then buying a used high-end player. Chances are you would want to change that player anyway because that's what audiophiles do.
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mix4fix not if you get it correct in the first place, I don’t change my kit often as I do my homework.
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twitch54 you can do it for far less than that.
I do kind of agree with you about starting from scratch today, why would you bother but saying that it’s far easier with record players than a tape deck or a Reel to reel player. At least with records, you can still get new records / record players. With tape decks and reel to reel, good luck.
There are tons of vinyl options. Plenty of turntables available. Everybody has vinyl (even Target had a little bit of vinyl. Best Buy. Hot Topic. Urban Outfitters. Plenty of vinyl vendors at Capitol Audio Fest. Online vendors. etc.).
I don't know why anybody would not get onto vinyl. Even if one make the poor choices, it is still the easiest to get into.
On a side note, how much is a new, used, or vintage real-to-real? The ones at United Home Audio are crazy expensive. Tapes are like $300 a piece.
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mix4fix not if you get it correct in the first place, I don’t change my kit often as I do my homework.
I didn't say everybody. Many people do though. I will upgrade up because I can't afford all higher-end in one shot. It just takes me longer than the average person.
Correct is subjective. To one person, the million dollar VAC room at Capitol Audio Fest is the greatest thing in the world. To others, some of the other rooms (Salk for example) is our cup of tea.
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There are tons of vinyl options. Plenty of turntables available. Everybody has vinyl (even Target had a little bit of vinyl. Best Buy. Hot Topic. Urban Outfitters. Plenty of vinyl vendors at Capitol Audio Fest. Online vendors. etc.).
On a side note, how much is a new, used, or vintage real-to-real? The ones at United Home Audio are crazy expensive. Tapes are like $300 a piece.
That is what I am saying, records are everywhere and new are still being made.
New Reel to Reel players are expensive, that is the price of admission.
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twitch54 you can do it for far less than that.
really ?? show me, obviously you and I can't ... LOL !
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I didn't say everybody. Many people do though. I will upgrade up because I can't afford all higher-end in one shot. It just takes me longer than the average person.
Correct is subjective. To one person, the million dollar VAC room at Capitol Audio Fest is the greatest thing in the world. To others, some of the other rooms (Salk for example) is our cup of tea.
Correct is not subjective here, when I say correct I mean correct for what sound I like. With the dealers I go to, they let me take things home to use in my system for a weekend or week so I always know it’s going to work for me.
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really ?? show me, obviously you and I can't ... LOL !
Okay using UK prices
Rega P6 £1049
Rega Fono MC £249
Spin Clean £90
I make that £1388
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Okay using UK prices
Rega P6 £1049
Rega Fono MC £249
Spin Clean £90
I make that £1388
LOL, you said ......"a lot less" ! and besides you didn't include a phono-pre !
regardless, I fully understand opinions differ but I've never heard a analog set up done on the 'cheap' that I would consider remotely challenging to digital.
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LOL, you said ......"a lot less" ! and besides you didn't include a phono-pre !
regardless, I fully understand opinions differ but I've never heard a analog set up done on the 'cheap' that I would consider remotely challenging to digital.
Yes I could do it a lot less, but i still want something that is going to sound reasonable.
By the way the Rega Fono MC is a phonostage.
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For me it is about the music. Meaning good recordings to start with. That said if one had 4K to spend what format would sound best for that money ? Two 4K front ends, one digital, one analog. Choosing components from Stereophiles recommended components list class "B" or "C" what would you choose ?? :popcorn:
charles
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My digital front end
Marantz SA-10
No name 5 disc changer used, (I own a half dozen of them, all the same, don't bother to ask what brand.. I still buy them!)
Lifatech Toslink connecting them.
And then all the power conditioners and other stuff on the AC....
My Analog front end(s)
Kuzma Stabi (the brass pipe model) Stogi S arm, (includes power supply device) Dynavector 17D3, Audio research Sp-15 as a phono device for it
Also
Rega P5 with power supply device, Benz Glider cartridge, New to me Threshold FET 10 phono (phono and line stage rebuilt by Jon Soderberg and new power supply built by him in 2014) Previous used Bryston BP 1.5 The Threshold is better.)
I also own a Audible Illusions Modulus 3A with a nice phono stage in it.
The cartridges are getting up in hours of use. But I have some time left. Waffling about what to buy to replace. The Rega may be dumped for a Rega 10. IF they do not up the price too much before I can buy one. I would get it with the better available Rega cart.
For the Kuzma? Cartridge prices around $2000 seem to be the area I would look.
An interesting comparison on replaceable stuff. The cartridges used to be $1000. Now $2000. The replaceable medium in CD, the transports. $40 before , $40 today, $40 tomorrow since I have a stockpile of them to last out my remaining lifespan... LOL
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Yes I could do it a lot less, but i still want something that is going to sound reasonable.
By the way the Rega Fono MC is a phonostage.
Ok, but what about a cartridge ?
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Ok, but what about a cartridge ?
If you bothered to look up the Rega P6, you would know it comes with Ania MC cartridge.
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If you bothered to look up the Rega P6, you would know it comes with Ania MC cartridge.
LOL, it comes in many different configurations....with AND without cart !
example from 'needle doctor'
https://www.needledoctor.com/Rega-Planar-6-Turntable-w-Neo-TT-PSU?quantity=1&custcol124=1
regardless, as I stated in the first place when it's all said and done 2-3k min, NOT 'a lot less' as you stated !
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Tough thing about recommending vinyl setups is that it's hard to find people who have done table comparisons beyond one or two - understandable since it's a bulky and clumsy setup process. But now that there's real competition in the <$1k market there's a dearth of comparative information. It's not just about Rega this or Pro-ject that anymore.
I'm hoping to do some comparos by end of next year. A few years ago I dove into TTs and bought/repaired/sold some 3 dozen different vintage tables. So I'd like to know how new budget tables like the Orbit hold up. Based on my experience my favorite tables were ones that were suspended, regardless of drive. In that respect, a vintage table can be worth pursuing if you know what to look for.
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Well for a budget system- maybe a VPI Prime $4000, a VPI phono preamp at $500, Cartridge around $1000 and all the coolest VPI accessories $1,300
I guess people have different ideas of 'Budget'... My idea of 'budget' would be an Orbit TT at $459 for the tricked-out version with the acrylic platter and bamboo plinth, $299 for a VanAlstine modded Grado, and $500 for a VanAlstine phono pre. Total cost ~$1300.
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I guess people have different ideas of 'Budget'... My idea of 'budget' would be an Orbit TT at $459 for the tricked-out version with the acrylic platter and bamboo plinth, $299 for a VanAlstine modded Grado, and $500 for a VanAlstine phono pre. Total cost ~$1300.
budget yes, compete with a digital front end of equal value....... probably not, oh and you forgot the needed cleaning items, 1-200 buckaroos !
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This isn't the budget section. So, I don't expect everything so stay under $1K. If a VPI Scout or Prime is an optimal way to go (not the absolute best but the best use of money), then great.
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budget yes, compete with a digital front end of equal value....... probably not, oh and you forgot the needed cleaning items, 1-200 buckaroos !
There's no basis for comparing a vinyl setup vs digital of equal value. They are completely different mediums, with too many variables to consider as has been said already. If anything they are complimentary.
And what cleaning supplies have to cost $200. It doesn't cost $100-200+ to clean records unless you *want* to spend that much to clean records. Part of the pitfall of the turntable market since the 90s is the idea that it's an ecosystem that requires all these specialized accessories that *have* to be purchased in order to listen to records. Accessories that no one cared about when turntables were ubiquitous.
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There's no basis for comparing a vinyl setup vs digital of equal value. They are completely different mediums, with too many variables to consider as has been said already. If anything they are complimentary.
agreed and that has been my point all along, perhaps I wasn't clear enough .........
And what cleaning supplies have to cost $200. It doesn't cost $100-200+ to clean records unless you *want* to spend that much to clean records. Part of the pitfall of the turntable market since the 90s is the idea that it's an ecosystem that requires all these specialized accessories that *have* to be purchased in order to listen to records. Accessories that no one cared about when turntables were ubiquitous.
one does not 'have to' spend that much but IMO when you look at a min RCM, 'spin clean' for example plus brushes and solutions you're over a hundred bucks. But to think that cleanliness and record playing don't go hand in hand is ridiculous !
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My digital front end
Marantz SA-10
On a side note, that's an expensive CD player I want for a few hundred bucks. Or, at least the prior silver one from Marantz Reference
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And you can clean as well as a Spin Clean with a $1 Harbor Freight trimmed boar brush, dish soap water, a healthy de ionized water rinse, and dry with some microfiber towels. Not as good as a vacuum, and not nearly as good as a vacuum and an ultrasonic... but acceptable and cheap.
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And you can clean as well as a Spin Clean with a $1 Harbor Freight trimmed boar brush, dish soap water, a healthy de ionized water rinse, and dry with some microfiber towels. Not as good as a vacuum, and not nearly as good as a vacuum and an ultrasonic... but acceptable and cheap.
Record cleaning equipment and supplies is a necessity but not be included in turntable pricing. You need to detail your car but you don't anguish over a buffer when I decide between a car (pretty much needed) or motorcycle (pretty much not needed).
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Record cleaning equipment and supplies is a necessity but not be included in turntable pricing. You need to detail your car but you don't anguish over a buffer when I decide between a car (pretty much needed) or motorcycle (pretty much not needed).
Good point. The whole reason for my input on this tread is to say that a very nice vinyl rig can be had for well under $1000, perhaps as low as $600.
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Something to remember: new audiophile turntables ('affordable', not cost-no-object) don't necessarily reflect an improvement over older tables, other than warranty coverage. Belt drives are ubiquitous now not because they are definitively better, but because they are the only cost effective option. Direct drive, idler drives, etc. are too expensive to make nowadays and the people who knew how to make them or either dead or pretty darn old. Same with suspended drives. To implement that now would drive costs up. This is why IMO the part to brag about now is the tonearm. Because all most manufacturers can afford to do otherwise is do variation on plinth material and make platters bigger.
Also: U-turn Orbit is direct order, no middleman. So their tables may cost say $260 or $460, but in retail terms that's easily $500-900 with markups.
Personally for mid-fi I'd rather buy an old Pioneer PL-51X and have someone service it. Even better, buy an old Acoustic Research AR XB and have Marc Morin mod it. Both options should come in under $600 and punch way above their weight.
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Part of the pitfall of the turntable market since the 90s is the idea that it's an ecosystem that requires all these specialized accessories that *have* to be purchased in order to listen to records. Accessories that no one cared about when turntables were ubiquitous.
Actually, I think that is true for the audio world, and many accessories/tweaks etc., in general.
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Has anyone here directly compared an LP to a CD in their system ? Result ?
charles
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Has anyone here directly compared an LP to a CD in their system ? Result ?
charles
Back in the 80's I did with many of my audio customers. Everyone was shocked when I told them they preferred the CD. I was in a company's room at CES show with several TAS reviewers. Again, they were shocked when they preferred the CD.