Maximizing the image of Omega 3 and 5

Capt. Z · « **on:** 29 Dec 2009, 03:51 am »

Just wondering what some of the guys out there do to get the largest image form their Omega 3 or 5s.

chrisby · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Dec 2009, 04:21 am »

could be amp / pre-amp related?

While I don't own an Omega speaker, the "biggest" (widest & deepest) image I've so far heard from my several Fostex and Mark Audio DIY specials, has been with a new custom EL34 SET amp by Eddie Vaughn.

I've heard a Carina - think this girl on steroids; choke filtered, Solen Film cap supply, O-netics OPTs, Ratheon 5842 drivers, Hazen grid mod. For now I'm just running Svetlana outputs, but I'm daydreaming seriously about those Shuguang Treasure 6CA7s.

At only 20% of the power, this thing makes my triode connected Jolida P/P sound highly colored, soft and bloated in the bottom octaves, and constrained dynamically and soundstage-wise.

ZLS · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Dec 2009, 05:51 am »

Quote from: Capt. Z on 29 Dec 2009, 03:51 am

Just wondering what some of the guys out there do to get the largest image form their Omega 3 or 5s.

Room Treatment

DaveC113 · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 Dec 2009, 06:57 am »

I agree amp and preamp do have a lot to do with it. My Simple SE (el34 SET) is sooo much better in this regard than a Trends digital amp I also have. I also run a tube preamp, and this helps too. The amp is good by itsself, but imaging is clearer and there is more of a 3D soundstage with the preamp.

Before I went to a tube amp, I was searching for the "thing" that would make the speakers disappear from "view", and the amp is what did the trick.

Capt. Z · « **Reply #4 on:** 29 Dec 2009, 02:32 pm »

Well, I have 3 amps that I tried them with, a Conrad Johnson CAV 50 (KT77), A Bottlehead SEX amp and a uperscope 1220 receiver (made by Marantz). Image size is about the same.

In comprisson, my ACI Sapphire let me hear the musicians more 'regular size' while the Omegas sound much smaller.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 Dec 2009, 04:55 pm »

Quote from: Capt. Z on 29 Dec 2009, 02:32 pm

Well, I have 3 amps that I tried them with, a Conrad Johnson CAV 50 (KT77), A Bottlehead SEX amp and a uperscope 1220 receiver (made by Marantz). Image size is about the same.

In comprisson, my ACI Sapphire let me hear the musicians more 'regular size' while the Omegas sound much smaller.

So, the width of the soundstage is different? Are the speakers positioned exactly the same when you are comparing? I have found speaker position and room acoustics to have an effect on soundstage size (focused or wide). It's the quality of the soundstage and how clear the image is that's effected more by equipment, IME.

Capt. Z · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 Dec 2009, 05:13 pm »

I have tried the Omega 5s at different positions and different amps, but the size of the image always seems to be on the small size. Think more on the idea of image size you get from a larger Transistor radio vs. a full blown stereo.

I am afraid the small image size is due to the small driver and the bass reflex design, that has to cover a wide spectrum. Strangly. I have heard the Hornshoppe Horns at the manufacturers house and his 5 inch drivers sound very full and true to live size (frequency balance depends lots on placement with his Horns).

Here is a picture of my almost current set up.

chrisby · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Dec 2009, 06:31 pm »

You note that you've tried the Omegas in different locations - is that in the room in the photo? Was it hearing them in a different room or venue that prompted your purchase of them?

As you have quite obviously heard with Ed's Horns, a small diameter driver can deliver a big sound, and I'm sure he would agree placement / room can , but not always, affect things significantly. BTW, the FE126E would be more properly classified as a 4" driver (actual radiating area = less than 100mm)

Of the 3 amps you listed, I'd imagine the CJ KT77 would deliver the most life sized soundstage, but that the Bottlehead might be more intimate, particularly on less complex program material. Which amp do you prefer with the Sapphires?

rajacat · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Dec 2009, 07:48 pm »

My Omegas don't suffer from a small image size. However if I placed them back against the walls and in the corners, which is optimum for the Hornshoppes, I'm sure that they would not image well. Perhaps you should move the Sapphires into the corners and hear how they image. Give the Omegas some room to breath and toe them in slightly and perhaps raise them somewhat so that they are above most of the clutter in the way
of the soundfield. It's unfair to compare the Omegas to the Horns which were set up optimally in the manufacture's studio.

-Roy

Capt. Z · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Dec 2009, 10:16 pm »

Yes, this is the room I am using the Omegas in.

When I firts got them I placed them right next to the ACI Sapphire, playing some classical orchestra music and my first thought was, they sound like a big transistor radio. Since then I moved them further and further back and they seem to sound best about 6 or 7 cm away from the backwall in my room.

Some music, like Sax can sound marvelouse, but some other music will sound rather small.

The CJ CAV 50 has the best control over the Omegas, but the sound character is always the same, no matter which amp I use. Cables also make some difference.

Eadron · « **Reply #10 on:** 31 Dec 2009, 02:46 pm »

Quote from: chrisby on 29 Dec 2009, 04:21 am

I've heard a Carina - think this girl on steroids; choke filtered, Solen Film cap supply, O-netics OPTs, Ratheon 5842 drivers, Hazen grid mod. For now I'm just running Svetlana outputs, but I'm daydreaming seriously about those Shuguang Treasure 6CA7s.

Isn't Carina's topology based pretty much the same than Almarro A205Mk II's?? That custom EL34 SET really sounds interesting..wonder if Eddie will make a power amp version?

jouni

Alwayswantmore · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Jan 2010, 03:31 am »

Room treatments -- spend some time in the Acoustics Circle on AC
Nearfield listening -- wider apart than I am close to them
Speakers aimed to intersect behind my listening position (I see the inside "side" for both speakers)
Drivers centered approx at ear level
In my case, speakers out from all walls, but the distance out is not the same as distance to side walls (kind of stuff you learn on Acoustics forum
RWA Isabella linestage / DAC (it's great)
Spiked Syland stands

Capt. Z · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Jan 2010, 03:45 am »

Today, finally after all this Christmas work and family time I had some time to listen to some music again.
Started off with Norah Jones and I wondered why I ever wrote this post. Followed by Jacintha and some other lovely small jazz music.

Than I put on some Phil Collins and Brian Bolton for my wife and I was reminded why I did wrote this post and why I am started looking at some other options.

Why does life has to be so difficult???

Capt. Z · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 04:00 pm »

Took my Omegas to a friends house yesterday.

His room is much larger than mine.
He listens to music much louder and to a total different kind of music than I do.

The interesting thing was that the Omegas sounded MUCH better after the first song. It's like warming up your amp or CD player, except his amps were running all day long already.

So there is a warm up or loosening up period every time yo play those babies.

The difference I heard was mainly: getting fuller in sound and growing in image size.

So I guess my main issue is not giving the Omegas the requirements to sound their best.

rajacat · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 04:34 pm »

How many hours are on your Omegas? Perhaps they're not fully broken in?

-Roy

Capt. Z · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 05:39 pm »

They must have about 500 hours on them.

When I first got them I burned them in for about 250 hours with pink noise, music and some bass tones.
The rest is music played through them since then.

rajacat · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 05:53 pm »

Maybe you're a BIG speaker person....or perhaps just favor the large driver sound. My Bipole Omegas have 4 of the 4" hemp drivers and I'd say that they have a very deep soundstage for their size. The width of the stage is good too but it's the depth that's very impressive. Of course my speakers have twice the displacement of yours so that's important but the bipole design IMO makes all the difference. Cabinet can only get you so far. I also use a single sub and I plan to add more.

-Roy

Capt. Z · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 06:00 pm »

Roy;

I think we use the same words, but have different ideas of what we want them to say.

Sound stage is OK with the Omegas.
It's more the size of the image I meant.

For example: Sometimes a drum sounds more like a small 'can', than a drum, a cimbal sounds much smaller than on conventional speakers.

Also what I should have mentioned. The Omegas sounded much different at my friends house than they do in my room. His room is highly reflective with different room treatments all over the place.
You can see my room partially in the picture.

rajacat · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 06:12 pm »

On my bipoles percussion is a strong point. Drums in particular are in context relative to the image size of the other instruments.

-Roy

Capt. Z · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 06:16 pm »

Could be that the double amount of drivers makes up for the difference.