AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: BrandonB on 19 Apr 2024, 02:21 am
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I am about to finish my NX-otica's in a few weeks, So I am starting to focus on my subs. If I had my cake and could eat it too I would have an OB eight stack in front and four sealed subs in back for movies. I'm being sarcastic about all that but I do think I am going to get both. Im not sure what I am going to do first though. Does anyone have any sealed subs with their NX Series? Also does anyone have OB subs paired with their Brute or Bully? In my mind it seems like the sealed subs would be better at hard hitting punchy stuff but the OB subs would be good at low rumbling base and the cello. What are your thoughts?
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I currently am running 2 of the double trouble open baffle subs up front next to my mains in a home theater. I also have a rythmik sealed 15” sub up front and behind and then a massive dual opposed 15” rythmik sub in the rear of the home theater. I use two speaker presets. One for music and one for movies. The music preset is flat bass response with emphasis on the prime listening position with phase. The open baffle subs are blended flat to the mains and just a hint of the sealed subs to fill in the really really low end. For movies I change the phase slightly to add more whole room response to the sealed subs and emphasize those much more. Open baffle subs remain flat while the sealed subs gain come up 2.5 db above flat. I find movies to be much more fun with that configuration. I just ordered an NX otica kit to replace my aging diy mains. Cant wait to be able to play around with those.
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I currently am running 2 of the double trouble open baffle subs up front next to my mains in a home theater. I also have a rythmik sealed 15” sub up front and behind and then a massive dual opposed 15” rythmik sub in the rear of the home theater. I use two speaker presets. One for music and one for movies. The music preset is flat bass response with emphasis on the prime listening position with phase. The open baffle subs are blended flat to the mains and just a hint of the sealed subs to fill in the really really low end. For movies I change the phase slightly to add more whole room response to the sealed subs and emphasize those much more. Open baffle subs remain flat while the sealed subs gain come up 2.5 db above flat. I find movies to be much more fun with that configuration. I just ordered an NX otica kit to replace my aging diy mains. Cant wait to be able to play around with those.
That is a lot of subs and sounds very impressive. I am looking at the 15in rhythmic sealed subs also. What do you think about them? Would you change anything? How large is your room? Are you changing the presets in your preamp?
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Mating sealed subs with the NX series is criminal.
What's more important to you -- music or movies? You gotta pick one. If music, then grab as many OB servo subs as your room can handle. For movies, a couple of 15" sealed subs are all you need.
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Mating sealed subs with the NX series is criminal.
What's more important to you -- music or movies? You gotta pick one. If music, then grab as many OB servo subs as your room can handle. For movies, a couple of 15" sealed subs are all you need.
I agree with this. If you try to use sealed subs with the fast responsive drivers of the NX-Oticas, it sounds very sloppy. I’ve tried mine with a pair of real good Rel subs and it just doesn’t cut it compared to the OB doubles. It’s a totally different sound and experience. The sealed subs kind of ruin it all, it’s better without subs at that point IMO.
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What about with the sealed servo subs that GR Research offers? Have you heard those with yhe NX series speakers??
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The OB subs that GR offers are not really 'subs', IMO. They are 'bass extenders' for the main speakers. If you want the front speakers to play full range (down to 20hz) then you need a pair of OB subs for that.
Sealed subs act more like traditional subs and those are what I'd use for movies.
The only time I'd used sealed subs for music is if my main speakers were also box speaker. Like the Encores, for example.
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I have two Rhythmic 15 sealed subs and two double trouble GR subs. My experience is exactly how Tyson stated, I use the sealed for movies with my standard box speakers and the double troubles with NX-Oticas for music.
The sealed Rhythmic 15 are great for movies and sounded good with my Encore towers before I upgraded. I use room correction for movies to smooth out the response across a few more seats with absolutely no complaints.
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I run the triples with the NX oticas, they are nothing but outstanding, if I were to do it over I would of went with four on each side as they are closer in height to the speakers....You will not be disappointed with this set up. I want nothing more with this set up, except for maybe a better room and line forces. (I have listened to them) WOW!....Thanks Jay! :thumb:
Steve
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The OB subs that GR offers are not really 'subs', IMO. They are 'bass extenders' for the main speakers. If you want the front speakers to play full range (down to 20hz) then you need a pair of OB subs for that.
Sealed subs act more like traditional subs and those are what I'd use for movies.
The only time I'd used sealed subs for music is if my main speakers were also box speaker. Like the Encores, for example.
Yeah the OB subs up front is the plan. Its just taking longer than expected to get.
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I have two Rhythmic 15 sealed subs and two double trouble GR subs. My experience is exactly how Tyson stated, I use the sealed for movies with my standard box speakers and the double troubles with NX-Oticas for music.
The sealed Rhythmic 15 are great for movies and sounded good with my Encore towers before I upgraded. I use room correction for movies to smooth out the response across a few more seats with absolutely no complaints.
Do you have box speakers and NX-otica in the same room?
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I run the triples with the NX oticas, they are nothing but outstanding, if I were to do it over I would of went with four on each side as they are closer in height to the speakers....You will not be disappointed with this set up. I want nothing more with this set up, except for maybe a better room and line forces. (I have listened to them) WOW!....Thanks Jay! :thumb:
Steve
Four would be cool you just have to use two amps or a bigger dual mono amp.
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I’m using sealed 15 inch subs with NX-Oticas for now. I think I’m missing out on the full experience, though the setup still sounds better than any of my previous speakers. Damn you guys, now I think I need to break down and finally order double troubles or triple threats, hm not sure which yet.
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With the NX-Oticas and X-Tremes, the OB subs are mating to OB woofers. With the NX-Studio, the woofer is sealed so mating it to a sealed servo sub wouldn't be a mismatch. Also, the Studio Monitor was designed to be able to be placed close to the wall. If The SM is mated to OB subs, this ability is lost.
Do the SMs sound great with OB subs? Sure they do, but they also sound great with sealed servo subs. I have two main systems in my house, the full OB system upstairs and a system with a sealed servo sub in the living room. The main speakers in this room are a pair of N3 transition line towers. I have had the Studio Monitors in this system also and they sound fantastic.
The point being that in the NX series, the Oticas and X-Tremes need the OB subs while the Studio Monitors work well with both and if the reason someone chooses the Monitors is they don't have the room to get OB subs at least 3' off the wall, a sealed servo sub is a perfectly capable and exceptional sounding option.
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It took a bit of tinkering to get the decent results with the sealed subs, changing positions, adjusting crossover range and type and eq. I’m sure it doesn’t ruin the merits of the NX-Oticas sound, just not ideal. Also, an unrelated change I made was replacing the QRD panels behind the speakers with GIK Evolution polyfusers, seems more precise spaitial cues, tonal balance and imaging. May be room dependent, but I like the change.
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Damn you guys, now I think I need to break down and finally order double troubles or triple threats, hm not sure which yet.
Don't settle for troubles when threats are what you want.
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Don't settle for troubles when threats are what you want.
Is four OB Subs Quad core or Quad squad. We need to make up a names for four and six. I don't think I have ever seen five.
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Is four OB Subs Quad core or Quad squad. We need to make up a names for four and six. I don't think I have ever seen five.
Love the "Quad Squad." Six would be the "Hexadragons."
I have three dual subs, so should I call them, "Triple Doubles?"
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What's crazy is when you consider the number (and quality) of the drivers in the GR Research OB speakers, it really dwarfs the other commercial options out there. I very rarely see speaker systems as big as NX series and when I do they are all north of $100k.
Heck, just look at what we are talking about here - towers of servo controlled 12" bass modules. Very rare to see anything like that at all with commercial offerings, and when you do it's very very expensive.
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What's crazy is when you consider the number (and quality) of the drivers in the GR Research OB speakers, it really dwarfs the other commercial options out there. I very rarely see speaker systems as big as NX series and when I do they are all north of $100k.
Heck, just look at what we are talking about here - towers of servo controlled 12" bass modules. Very rare to see anything like that at all with commercial offerings, and when you do it's very very expensive.
And once you get used to this level of performance, you are spoiled. I didn’t hear any system at Southwest Audio Fest that I liked as well as I do mine let alone better
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Do you have box speakers and NX-otica in the same room?
Yup, I have my box speakers and subs behind my screen, when I watch movies I move my NX-Oticas and OB subs. My room isn't overly large so I can't place the NX-Otica's for both. I get the best of both worlds but have to move some stuff.
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Love the "Quad Squad." Six would be the "Hexadragons."
I have three dual subs, so should I call them, "Triple Doubles?"
I likey the Hexadragons.
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What's crazy is when you consider the number (and quality) of the drivers in the GR Research OB speakers, it really dwarfs the other commercial options out there. I very rarely see speaker systems as big as NX series and when I do they are all north of $100k.
Heck, just look at what we are talking about here - towers of servo controlled 12" bass modules. Very rare to see anything like that at all with commercial offerings, and when you do it's very very expensive.
100k Just blows my mind. That is the price of a small house. Well it was a few years ago.
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I agree with this. If you try to use sealed subs with the fast responsive drivers of the NX-Oticas, it sounds very sloppy. I’ve tried mine with a pair of real good Rel subs and it just doesn’t cut it compared to the OB doubles. It’s a totally different sound and experience. The sealed subs kind of ruin it all, it’s better without subs at that point IMO.
I am glad you said that. I was thinking about getting some sealed subs while I built the others.
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Mating sealed subs with the NX series is criminal.
What's more important to you -- music or movies? You gotta pick one. If music, then grab as many OB servo subs as your room can handle. For movies, a couple of 15" sealed subs are all you need.
Definitely music. My listening room is in the TV room. My plan is to put some sealed subs in the room and turn them on when watching movies.
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I’m using sealed 15 inch subs with NX-Oticas for now. I think I’m missing out on the full experience, though the setup still sounds better than any of my previous speakers. Damn you guys, now I think I need to break down and finally order double troubles or triple threats, hm not sure which yet.
You need to go for the Hexadragons....lol
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Can a person start with just one triple? Plus I only have 16 inches of space on the outside of the speakers back side wing. I can move them closer together, but the way they’re positioned now gives the best overall sound.
I’m not ready to dump the full 4 grand on woofers.
Or could I run one triple laying on its side in between the speakers?
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Can a person start with just one triple? Plus I only have 16 inches of space on the outside of the speakers back side wing. I can move them closer together, but the way they’re positioned now gives the best overall sound.
I’m not ready to dump the full 4 grand on woofers.
Or could I run one triple laying on its side in between the speakers?
Danny had mentioned to me about running two doubles on their side between the two mains.
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Danny had mentioned to me about running two doubles on their side between the two mains.
I was thinking to start with on triple and maybe add the second later on. Just not sure if 13 foot wide room is wide enough to get optimal performance from the woofer towers.
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I was thinking to start with on triple and maybe add the second later on. Just not sure if 13 foot wide room is wide enough to get optimal performance from the woofer towers.
Give Danny a call and he can help you figure it out.
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I was thinking to start with on triple and maybe add the second later on. Just not sure if 13 foot wide room is wide enough to get optimal performance from the woofer towers.
I started with a single double trouble for budget reasons. My room is also 13 ft. wide and I'd put Quad Squads in there if I could.
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I started with a single double trouble for budget reasons. My room is also 13 ft. wide and I'd put Quad Squads in there if I could.
Do you have the stacks on the outer sides of the speakers? I’ll probably do triples, just start with one and add the second later.
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Do you have the stacks on the outer sides of the speakers? I’ll probably do triples, just start with one and add the second later.
This is what my speakers & subs look like:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263410)
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This is what my speakers & subs look like:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263410)
This is what my speakers & subs look like:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263410)
Interesting. You just swap your subs out depending on what you are doing?
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Interesting. You just swap your subs out depending on what you are doing?
No. This is my 2-channel system with three dual subs instead of two triples.
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No. This is my 2-channel system with three dual subs instead of two triples.
So the 3 woofers on the right are all wired together and the 3 woofers on the left are all wired together?
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So the 3 woofers on the right are all wired together and the 3 woofers on the left are all wired together?
No. Each sub has an A370 amp.
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Ah, the A370 can output stereo? I didn't know that. Very cool.
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Ah, the A370 can output stereo? I didn't know that. Very cool.
No. I have one amp on the left output and two amps on the right output using a splitter. If there's a better way to hook them up, please let me know.
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I was just thinking that if you wired the 3 woofers together on the right, you could use a single amp for the right.
Then wire the 3 woofers together on the left and use a single amp for those 3.
Like this:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263423)
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I was just thinking that if you wired the 3 woofers together on the right, you could use a single amp for the right.
Then wire the 3 woofers together on the left and use a single amp for those 3.
Geez, now you tell me!! :o
I like the idea of a separate amp for the middle sub because I can dial in subtle differences/volume distinct from the settings on the subs for the main speakers. Nonetheless, had I known what you suggested beforehand, I probably would have saved money on the third A370. Of course, Danny would probably say that the longer wire length to the third driver would be problematic.
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You could also run a y-splitter for your sub outs to put the center sub as receiving both channels.
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Geez, now you tell me!! :o
I like the idea of a separate amp for the middle sub because I can dial in subtle differences/volume distinct from the settings on the subs for the main speakers. Nonetheless, had I known what you suggested beforehand, I probably would have saved money on the third A370. Of course, Danny would probably say that the longer wire length to the third driver would be problematic.
Cool thing about DIY is you can always make changes and see if you like it better and change it back if you don’t.
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You could also run a y-splitter for your sub outs to put the center sub as receiving both channels.
If I'm understanding you correctly, it's not recommended to use the subouts on the A370 because they're filtered at 80Hz. Besides, I prefer a direct connection to the preamp.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263430)
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Cool thing about DIY is you can always make changes and see if you like it better and change it back if you don’t.
Yeah, there are tons of options for tweaking the bass to taste. But Tyson -- you got me thinking like a mad scientist -- I can add a single servo sub to each of the dual subs and turn them into triples. 8) Imagine that -- 9 OB woofers in a 13x20 room -- whoa!!
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If I'm understanding you correctly, it's not recommended to use the subouts on the A370 because they're filtered at 80Hz. Besides, I prefer a direct connection to the preamp.
I was actually speaking from your preamp, have a pair of rca y-splitters (1 rca male plugged into your preamp output - 2 rca female out with rca wires to your subs). Run one of the L channel to the left vertical stack, run one of the R channel to the right vertical stack, then run the remaining L & R to the center horizontal sub. That would for the center effectively sum both into that to even out your L vs R soundstage. Y-splitters are a bit hoaky but effective in this case. I'm sure if you talked to any of our skilled wire craftsmen here they could even make a fancy audiophile grade one or just rig up a small plastic box unit similar to Danny's high pass filter units, just with no capacitors in the box. Just a thought. :popcorn:
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Yeah, there are tons of options for tweaking the bass to taste. But Tyson -- you got me thinking like a mad scientist -- I can add a single servo sub to each of the dual subs and turn them into triples. 8) Imagine that -- 9 OB woofers in a 13x20 room -- whoa!!
This is why I love my fellow audiophiles.
Me: Hey maybe you could rewire the subs and consolidate from 3 amps to 2 amps.
You: OR I could keep the 3 amps and add more woofers!
Haha, a man after my own heart :thumb:
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I was actually speaking from your preamp, have a pair of rca y-splitters (1 rca male plugged into your preamp output - 2 rca female out with rca wires to your subs). Run one of the L channel to the left vertical stack, run one of the R channel to the right vertical stack, then run the remaining L & R to the center horizontal sub. That would for the center effectively sum both into that to even out your L vs R soundstage. Y-splitters are a bit hoaky but effective in this case. I'm sure if you talked to any of our skilled wire craftsmen here they could even make a fancy audiophile grade one or just rig up a small plastic box unit similar to Danny's high pass filter units, just with no capacitors in the box. Just a thought. :popcorn:
Oh, gotcha! OK, I'll give it a try and report back. I'm sure I have an extra Y-splitter around here somewhere.
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I have a set of NX-Otica's and double troubles. I use the plate amps from Danny and are powering the Oticas with a McIntosh MA 12000. I got a chance to audition a MEN 220, a room correction unit built by McIntosh, McIntosh licensed RoomPerfect technology from Danish audio wizard Peter Lyngdorf, whose Steinway Lyngdorf music systems cost upwards of a couple hundred grand. Here is where the plot thickens.
Friends and I dialed in the phase and the levels on the plate amps to sound good with the NX-Oticas, we thought we did a great job. At first, we used the Men220 and the room correction software just controlling the Oticas, but when we re-ran the whole set-up and allowed the Men220 to adjust all the levels, the music went from great to Outstanding.
What we did was allow the Men220 to set all the levels. We turned all the switches on the plate amp to "11" and let the Men220 do it's thing. The overall bass and punch increased dramatically. The unit did a great job of blending the sounds of all of the speakers.
Before I ran the double troubles through the Men200 I was really on the fence whether I actually liked the sound, but once I gave it full control.... all I can say is Wow!
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I am thinking bigger.
Time to get the 12 1x12 modular OB servo sub H-Frames to painting next week. :)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263546)
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I am thinking bigger.
Time to get the 12 1x12 modular OB servo sub H-Frames to painting next week. :)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263546)
WOW Watcha gonna do with that?
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They go with my new AGN II Line Array speaker project.
Pics on my circle in that thread.
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You could also run a y-splitter for your sub outs to put the center sub as receiving both channels.
OK, I'm reporting back on running two y-splitters to turn my middle sub into a "stereo" sub....
Lo and behold, the middle sub (or all three OB subs?) sounds like a giant sealed sub, i.e., you get the gut punch that isn't usually associated with OB subs. It was a little boomy initially, so I reduced the volume and changed the damping setting to "Low" on the A370 amp. The bass sounds better now. Frankly, I didn't expect an improvement, but I'm glad I tried it, and it was a cheap tweak. Nlitworld -- thanks for the suggestion.
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Is there a connection type listing for the GR subs? I'm assuming there are high level inputs, is there LFEs for the single box GR subs version?
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For the high level output, people typically use Neutrik Speakon 4-pole connectors with the servo amps and drivers since they have 4 connections.
The standard has been 1+ and 1- for the driver coil and 2+ and 2- for the servo coil connections on both the amp and drivers.
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Is there a connection type listing for the GR subs? I'm assuming there are high level inputs, is there LFEs for the single box GR subs version?
It depends on the model of the A370 amp you use. The A370PEQ and PEQ3 have high level speaker and line (low) level RCA inputs. The PEQ has left and right RCA inputs and left and right RCA outputs that have an 80Hz high pass filter but don’t use that. The PEQ3 has left and right RCA inputs and an RCA LFE input.
The A370XLR2 and XLR3 versions have both RCA and XLR inputs but do not have high level speaker inputs
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Thanks Mike.
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I decided that I wanted to build a set of double troubles but since I had recently blown my cash on a meitner ma3 dac, I decided to build a set for the cheapest amount of money.
I substituted the 600 or so for the the flat pack and built my own for around 100.
And I substituted the 2400 I drivers and amps from gr with 4 sb audience bianco 12ob150 for 400 and a crown xls1002(built in crosover) that I had laying around.
I also bought 4 sheets of no rez, good stuff!
Total cost for me was around 750$. A steal compared to 3k+. :lol:
Drivers and my tools.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263860)
Cut mdf
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263861)
Glue up
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263862)
Setup
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263865)
I am extremely satisfied with this project. Although the woofers only rated for around 40hz, thanks to the hfame design and room gain I get usable output down to 25 hz.
The amp does have have a crossover built in but not a phase adjustment. Thankfully I was able to get by, by just inverting the phase in the speaker wiring.
I am very happy with the sound of these subs. They replaced a single rythmic f12se and 2 rythic f8 subs. I get Much cleaner bass from these 2 subs Than the rythmiks.
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Theese are the woofers I used. Fs is at 44 but it seems that the hframe pushed it down some.
These have a high sensativity, high qts and a fair bit of xmax.
The only other drivers like these are much more expensive offerings from acustic elegance and lii audio.
I might decide to upgrade to the ae dipole 12s in the future.
I think I might have too much fun upgrading amps for the subs too go use the rythmic woofers and amps.
It would be interesting to use big krells for the bass in the future. :D
https://www.sbaudience.com/index.php/products/open-baffle-drivers/bianco-12ob150/
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I am very happy with the sound of these subs. They replaced a single rythmic f12se and 2 rythic f8 subs. I get Much cleaner bass from these 2 subs Than the rythmiks.
Awesome! The statement above says a lot.
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How would one determine whether to go with all forward facing drivers vs staggered? I read the FAQ note regarding waves and room interaction, but it's somewhat ambiguous.
Room placement would be fairly close to the front wall, so I'm thinking drivers facing forward makes the most sense.
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If it is less than 3 ft from the front wall, an open baffle sub would not be the best choice. OB subs need space behind them to work well.
A forward facing sealed sub would most likely work better.
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Well, I've got that covered with my F12s, but a couple of Double Troubles would look so good...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263921)
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If it is less than 3 ft from the front wall, an open baffle sub would not be the best choice. OB subs need space behind them to work well.
A forward facing sealed sub would most likely work better.
One point of clarification when referring to distance from the front wall with OB speakers (subs or mains)...is that the distance from the front of the baffle, the front of the drivers, the rear of the drivers, or some other reference point?
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Go and grab some double troubles. My philosophy is to buy whatever sounds the best. There will always be trade-offs and limitations. Sure, OB works best a few feet off the wall, but even when they're close to the wall, they sound better than any box sub I've heard.
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One point of clarification when referring to distance from the front wall with OB speakers (subs or mains)...is that the distance from the front of the baffle, the front of the drivers, the rear of the drivers, or some other reference point?
3 feet from the back-side of the front baffle.
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3 feet from the back-side of the front baffle.
Thank you.