AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: earlmarc on 12 Dec 2005, 02:41 am
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I ordered a couple of James Weil's power outlets from Sound Application. I have been trialing them for several days now. Mr. Weil has his outlets made to his specifications by Hubbell. I have experimented with outlets in the past. I have tried PS Audio, Hubbell, and Acme outlets in my home. And in each occasion I felt that the upgraded outlets improved performance a little. After speaking with Mr. Weil for what seemed like a long time, I soaked in his vast knowledge about power conditioning. I have never received so much information about power conditioning. This guy spoke about every major competitor in the power conditioning market and explained all of their devices as if he had designed them himself. He suggested that I start by trying his outlets before considering his $5000 power conditioner. :o . I quickly agreed. I explained to him that I had tried outlets in the past and didn't think the improvement was anything special. He assured me that his outlets would change my perception. He was right. My system was energized after installing the Sound Application outlets. Simply put everything had greater energy with less distortion. Distortion I never knew existed. Best $50 I ever spent on my audio system. Highly Recommended!
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earlmarc,
Is this the website... http://www.soundapplication.com/ ??[/list:u]I don't see any outlets listed...just conditioners. :? [/list:u]
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Yes Lonewolf, correct website. He doesn't list outlets on web pages. You can call him or e-mail him for outlets. They are the same outlets he uses in his $5000 power conditioner.
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thanks for the heads up on these outlets. I've been using PS Audio outlets for a couple of years. No power conditioning. Just plugging my
gear directly into the wall. A very noticeable upgrade at the time and if the Sound Application outlets are even better yet at the same price I'm anxious to try them. There are some other outlets on the VH Audio and CRYOPARTS sites that I've been considering as well but after corresponding with Jim of SOUND APPPLICATION I'm inclined to try his.
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I will have JIMS LATEST AND GREAT linestage next week, it is burning inn as I type. I have been told, this is the BEST uprade ever........we will see, 5K, GULP.............. 8) :lol: Zactly
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My Sound Application Reference LineStage arrived today and I have to say it is a killer upgrade. Better than cables, power cords, etc. I'm using mine with a Harmonix X-DC 20a cord and the background has become dark, dark, and more dark. Some transients just jump from the background now on my Merlin TSM-MX's. It's almost like they just breathe better.
Wait 'til you plug your TV into it and see what happens to the picture. Unbelievable improvement, except that it probably costs more than the TV (at least mine).
You will enjoy it very much. If you do talk to Jim on the phone hold your breath and hang on. He talks faster than anyone I ever heard. Apparently quite the genious, though, and a straight talker.
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I will have JIMS LATEST AND GREAT linestage next week, it is burning inn as I type. I have been told, this is the BEST uprade ever........we will see, 5K, GULP.............. 8) :lol: Zactly
Your collection of 'must hear' components seems to be growing at by the day - I've gotta get down there :!:
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I will have JIMS LATEST AND GREAT linestage next week, it is burning inn as I type. I have been told, this is the BEST uprade ever........we will see, 5K, GULP.............. 8) :lol: Zactly
Your collection of 'must hear' components seems to be growing at by the day - I've gotta get down there :!:
Only the begginning...........I gots more cuming :jester:
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Only the begginning...........I gots more cuming ...
You must have a big room...I'm outta room....oh well.... :lol: [/list:u]
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I have a PISSED OFF WIFE :peek: ifyaknowwhatimean, heh heh heh
I just sold 3 sets of speakers, and a couple sets of amps too, the eq, comes, the eq goes......... :lol:
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Spoke with BPT Audio today about incorporatiing the Sound Application outlets in his PPC. BPT said they could do that for me if I provided three outlets. BPT uses a copper chassis rather than steel or aluminum which rejects RFI and EMI better. BPT also uses Furutech's best IEC inlet. This combination should make a very good power strip. Additionally BPT also offers Bybee Filters and ERS isolation. The outlets total $150 and the assembled final product from BPT is $100. I think this combination is worth a try for $250.00.
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Recently I performed a number of a/b/a listening test with wall outlets. I have a dedicated line and it was somewhat easy to swap out the outlets. We tried 12 different outlets. Some like the PS audio, the Acme silver cryo, the Shunyta Venom, one from LLoyd Walker, Sound Applications, Porter Ports, FIM and some other stock outlets that were cryo frozen. I made sure that all outlets had at least 100 hours of break in time on them. Most of the outlets were taken out of some of my friends walls once they heard that I was doing the comparisions. I had at least 2 audiophiles at my house when we were comparing outlets. In the end we had at least 4 different listening sessions to cover all of these outlets. There were some high dollar outlets that sounded worst than if you went to Home Depot and bought a certain model $7.00 Leviton and had it cryo frozen. The Leviton unfrozen might have still sounded better than a couple of the outlets tested. There were at least 4 that were just down right awful. :nono: Even tho they were marketed for high end audio systems they sounded worst then the $7.00 Leviton. Then we found about 4 outlets that came in second. It was too hard to really pin down with the time constraints what was 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th. A lot of the cryo frozen Hubbles came in this group including the $7.00 Leviton. The Sound Applications outlet was in this group. In our opinion, hands down unanimous, the clear cut winner was the Porter Ports. :D Once we heard the Porter Ports we were comparing everything to that and did not dwell on what came in 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. We do know what were the 2 or 3 worst ( I really do not want to mention them by name). For those that are interested in the best $36.00 you can spend on your system you can find the Porter Ports on Audiogon. They also are cryo frozen and are a Hubble that he has custom made for him. He told me that the reason that they sound so good is that he tells Hubble to only do the plating one time. Most companies do a multi plating with different type of plating over each other. The PS Audio claims to have 15 coats of plating. You can hear the many layers of plating. Every one that I have recommended the Porter Ports to has thanked me for one of the biggest and cheapest upgrades that they have tried. One of the things that we noticed with the Porter Ports was that it had more of a sense of realism compared to most of the other wall outlets. The bass was tighter, the highs seemed to shimmer better but not over bright like the silver plated outlets do. There was better decay to the instruments which might be what attributed to a greater sense of realism.
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The Leviton unfrozen might have still sounded better than a couple of the outlets tested....
Gregg,
Would you please share with us which specific model $7 Leviton from HD was such an overacheiver.
TIA
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Would you please share with us which specific model $7 Leviton from HD was such an overacheiver.
TIA
And I have to ask. What amp was used when you were comparing?
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I haven't tried the Porters, but a number of years ago I exchanged emails with him before he went into business, and he was genuine, generous, and awfully patient with my questions. He seemed like a very sincere and nice guy.
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I haven't had the cash to think about any power conditioning. The idea of a cheap BPT PPC with some good outlets might sound good though.
I do have some questions.
1. Is it a bad idea to run a digital source, pre, and amp (along with tv, cable box) to the same unit? I know other manufacturers have seperate digital outlets. I'm using a cdp now but may make the squeezebox switch some time soon.
2. All things being equal, what would most likely sound better? Three quality outlets, 1 for the source, 1 for the pre and amp, and one for the tv gear (no power strip) - or something along the lines of a PPC with the same outlets?
Thanks for any opinions....
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Maxwalrath, that's a good question, one in which I would like to invite James Weil from Sound Application to explain. James if you're watching, could we solicit your expert advice?
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gstraley
What type of system where you using for your evaluation, you mention nothing of the gear used. I am wondering if it is really transparent enough for you to make these statements. It sure seems you are coming into a thread, and trying to change a direction by promoting the Porter stuff. I dunno, I just am just getting more skeptical as I spend more time and $$$ in my pursuit of sonic nirvana. I know I personnally have TT Weil, and Porter, Dodd, Wright, Peycev, Tucker, Tyler, and at least 100 other small and large business owners. Than I decide what to Buy, try, keep, or resell. I sure would feel better knowing more about your reasoning for your above statement
Keep Smilin :lol: :mrgreen:
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While I would agree with much of what Gstraley has stated above, I believe there are a few things which he has stated which are not in fact true. Firstly, the Porter Ports are not a custom outlet manufactured for Porter (and I don't believe Albert Porter has ever stated this). They are in fact a Hubbell 8300H, which is a slimline hospital grade outlet available at any electrical supply store which carries Hubbell. They will probably not be in stock like the standard Hubbell 8300 (which is not a slimline receptacle and has nickle plated contacts which virtually all hospital grade receptacles from any manufacturer do) and will probably have to be special ordered, but should arrive within a week or so. Secondly, the contacts on the Porter Ports are NOT plated; they are non-plated brass, which makes them somewhat unique among hospital grades. I believe that Albert Porter has them cryoed at NASA as he has a contact there, but inquiring minds may wish to know that you can buy exactly the same receptacle cryo treated for approximately half the price from Takefiveaudio in Canada. I'm not going to say that I can hear the difference in the cryo treatment between these two receptacles because I haven't compared them, but I can say that I have compared numerous receptacles (both cryo treated and not cryoed) and the Hubbell 8300H (or Hubbell 8200H which is what I use-cryoed in the same facility that Takefive uses) is the best that I have used and that includes cryoed Hubbell 5362's (which is what the Soundapplications used to be a few years ago-they may be different now), cryoed by both Audioexcellence and Jena Labs (possibly in the same facility-I'm not sure), cryoed Pass and Seymour's including the 5262A which is brass everywhere, standard Hubbell 8200/8300, etc. etc. The current rage in receptacles right now are the Oyaides, but they are pricey at around $100 and I have not experimented with them. But for anyone wanting a great receptacle for not much money the Takefive Hubbell is probably the best value. Breakin is critical, though, and I'd recommend no less than 2 weeks on each half of the receptacle on your refrigerator before putting it into your system. I have no affiliation with Takefive other than being a satisfied customer with some other purchases, and have never actually purchased outlets from them.
http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/AC_Connectors/hubbell_ac_connectors_hbl8300hi.html
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Thank you for taking the time Blakup to offer additional information.
Welcome.
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According to Jim Weil, his outlets are not cyrogenically treated currently. He stated that his outlets have the highest copper content of any outlet he is aware of, that being 75% copper. He also stated that there is no nickel plating on his outlets and that all hospital grade outlets require nickel plating to control electrical arcing in hospital settings. His outlets are plated with brass.
My outlets have continued to improve since installed, particularly with my RPTV. Colors are bolder with vibrancy and definition of images continue to improve as well. I am very pleased with the performance of these outlets. I don't know how they compare to Porter Ports or the Hubbell 8200. I doubt that I will ever find out because I am completely satisfied.
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The Hubbell, as well as the Pass & Seymour outlets (their top quality outlets) utilize Olin 688 Brass for the contacts, which is a brass alloy having approximately 75% copper content. The contacts are, in fact, this brass alloy and are not "brass plated". There is a lot at work with outlets contributing to the sound, possibly much that we don't even understand, and the P&S contacts are quite a bit different in terms of their shape than the Hubbells, which generally allow for more contact area on the blade of the male plug, at the expense of "grip", an area in which the Pass and Seymours excel. They sound quite a bit different and some will no doubt prefer the sound of the Pass and Seymours.
All hospital grades are NOT nickel plated. The Hubbell 8200H and 8300H (used in the Porter Ports and sold by Takefive) are not nickel plated and somewhat unusual in this regard as I mentioned above. The hospital grade Hubbell 8200 and 8300 (with no "H" designation) are in fact nickel plated and do have a different sonic character than the 8300H. The Hubbell 8200H and 8300H also have slightly larger (and it is very slight) contacts than the Hubbell 5262 or 5362 (which is also a very, very good receptacle and what I would expect Jim Weil to be using) and this may or may not contribute to what I perceive to be a slightly better performance from the 8200H/8300H when compared to the 5362.
For what it's worth, I have not heard any receptacle that didn't sound noticeably better when cryo treated, but the break-in process is ugly and they don't sound good at all immediately following cryo; hence my advice to just stick it on the fridge for a month or so.
There is a lot of misinformation and "voodoo" out there concerning outlets. I do not believe, for example, that any audio company has outlets that are really "custom" manufactured for them. When you take a good hard look at the "audiophile" outlets, the significant differences are essentially cosmetic (perhaps a logo on the front panel of the receptacle-PS Audio and Wattagate come to mind) and relating to plating of the contacts, which will obviously have an impact on sound quality. This does not, at least to me, constitute a "custom" outlet; it constitutes a stock outlet with extra plating added to the contacts. Very good quality outlets for audiophiles no longer cost a fortune if you know what you're looking for. That being said, I'd sure like to try out the Oyaides.
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Blakep, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge about various outlets. I have learned something more. Thank You.
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First off I have to say that I am a comparaholic (I may need help for that). I also have to mention that I am a member of an audio club. I have a number of friends from the club. We get together every so often and compare this amp to that amp to that amp etc. Then a month or so later after finding out which amp sounds the best we will do the same to preamps. Then cd players, then cables, speakers, and so on. If we find something that sounds really good at one guys house it then goes to other peoples house and we try to validate our findings. For the most part, most of our systems not being the same in a lot of ways seem to show the same things. If this product is good here it also is good on another system. One of the guys has speakers that have their own built in amps so we cannot try amps at his house. Nobody has the same speakers as each other. Some of us have the same digital equipment, some the same amp, and some the same preamp. But nobody has the exact or even close to the same as another person. Some guys have tube equipment and some solid state. Everyone that switched to the Porter Port commented as to how much better their system was sounding.
I personally have a solid state amplifier that was custom made for me by Stan Warren. It is his folded cascode model. Unfortunately for some it is not currently available in the Superphon line yet? I have compared my amp to amps like the Parasound JC 1's, Herron Mono Blocks and a model of mono blocks from Jeff Rowland to name a few good and expensive ones. It was used at Hiderfest '04 and was the amp that won best amp that weekend. I have been around long enough to know that the more money you throw at a system it does not mean that it will sound better. YOU HAVE TO DO THE A/B/A COMPARISONS. The same goes with the rest of my system. Everything in my system has been a/b/a compared to other equipment. That said I also feel that if you have good equipment it will show off other stuff (good or bad). Some people do not like to hear bad and try shooting the messenger. It may not be that what you just put is in bad. It may be that it is revieling something else in your system that you do not want to hear. I have heard a number of systems that retail for over $100,00.00. Some were not my cup of tea.
Blakep, Thanks for the clarification of what the Porter Ports are. I really didn't know the exact make up of them. I am please to see that you also feel that the model outlet is as good as I mentioned. It must be, you are using that model. From what I know about cryo freezing where it is done at does not make as much of a difference. Just that it had cryo frozen.
Alotoklipsh, I can tell you that my system is extremely revealing. That is one of the things that I strive for. If it wasn't revealing I would not have been able to hear the differences that we did. Once you get the detail you can get the little nuances that make things sound more real. It may not be your cup of tea because you like listening to real loud levels. I listen around 85 to 90 db average with peaks around 100 db. From what I have heard you listen to levels around 120 db. It is going to be tough to get anything sounding good at those levels unless you over dampen your room to knock out the energy at those loud levels. I found out a long time ago that the more you spend doesn't necessarily mean that you will make it or ever make it to audio Nirvana. I do not know if anybody has really ever gotton their. I am not trying to promote Porter's stuff. I was just responding to a thread on wall outlets. Actually when I saw Albert at the RMAF he kind of said a quick hi and barely gave me the time of day. Why would I want to go out of my way to promote his product unless I really believed in it. I know that he was busy taking pictures at the show and didn't have time for anybody.
Maxwalrath, I have listened to a fair number of power conditioners and have come to the conclusion that you use a conditioner on your digital equipment but everything else seems to sound better to me in my system plugged directly into the wall. I do have a conditioner that their claim is that your TV picture is better when using their power conditioner. I do not have my TV in my audio room.
Happy Listening!!
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I've heard Gregg's system and it is definitely a very revealing setup. I can also attest that in the short time I was there it was clear that he is a certifiable compareaholic, though he apparently does it with great care and very methodically (as it should be). This is a great approach for weeding out the junk and pretenders (high priced or not).
When you get to what good stuff is left, the matter of personal taste definitely comes into play though. Use your own ears and don't let others make your choices for you.
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Just a couple points. I am familiar with Blake. I also know that the great majority of outlets available are stock items that have only received cryogenic treatment. Many are the Hubbell 5362 and 8300 series outlet made in Puerto Rico. A number of the commercial grade outlets are inferior sounding because of the nickel plating and or steel backing plates. I use the term nickel plating loosely. We have measured a bunch of it on a 30K plating analyzer and most is closer to Stainless steel in composition. Keep in mind, these factories are not concerned about purity of their plating baths. They are more concerned with a shinny surface. Many of the back loader outlets use iron plates connected via the side screws to clamp the wires. Iron and the nickel plate add a sheen to the sound. It might initially be a boon to a dark or limited extreme frequency system. The term for this is hysteresis. The best thing you can do to get a good outlet is to focus on grip and avoid nickel and iron on the hot and neutral parts.