AudioCircle
The Commercial Zone => Audio Industry Talk => Topic started by: Roninaudio on 28 May 2018, 10:53 pm
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https://www.stereophile.com/content/au-revoir-dave-wilson-1944%C2%962018
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One of the giants of audio has passed. Have a restful voyage.
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RIP
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hurts my heart....
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Wow. Shocking. I had no idea he was sick. Man what a loss. RIP.
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deleted
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Sorry for his passing, but I never saw what major contributions he made to home audio. I've not been impressed with his products or their sound, use of square boxes to house off the shelf drivers, or the premise of striving for bigger more expensive gear. In fact it's my opinion that his sort of stuff makes audiophiles look weirder and harder to relate to the rest of the world. I know he used 'mysterious' dense cabinet materials and automotive paints while following the arrival time concept in a MTM arrangement but none of those attributes are earth shattering ideas.
I know I'm stomping on his grave and coming off as a hard ass, but honestly am I the only one to call out the emperor's new clothes? He didn't invent a concept or a technology. His noteworthiness is in simply finding a way of selling expensive brute force speakers, many of which looked hideous and overwhelming while being simplistic in design. My viewpoint is contrary to most audiophile thinking which often prioritizes the overstuffing of rooms with a lustful collection of trophy gear regardless of what it sounds like and IMO explains why audio continues to fight an uphill battle for sales - the premise just doesn't make much sense.
Frankly most of the concepts in speaker design had occurred before any of us were born. In our lifetimes ground breaking advancements in loudspeakers have been limited, to the Heil folded tweeter, Martin King's MathCad design application, and the KEF coincidental (not simply coaxial) driver. No new cabinet types have been invented, just improved materials and testing techniques have been developed in the past 70+ years. The most progress we made relating to speakers has probably been in the understanding of room acoustics thanks to the Canadian Research Council and a few others.
I'm no huge Wilson fan but your comments are just downright rude given the circumstances.
Don P.
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Sorry for his passing, but I never saw what major contributions he made to home audio. I've not been impressed with his products or their sound, use of square boxes to house off the shelf drivers, or the premise of striving for bigger more expensive gear. In fact it's my opinion that his sort of stuff makes audiophiles look weirder and harder to relate to the rest of the world. I know he used 'mysterious' dense cabinet materials and automotive paints while following the arrival time concept in a MTM arrangement but none of those attributes are earth shattering ideas.
I know I'm stomping on his grave and coming off as a hard ass, but honestly am I the only one to call out the emperor's new clothes? He didn't invent a concept or a technology. His noteworthiness is in simply finding a way of selling expensive brute force speakers, many of which looked hideous and overwhelming while being simplistic in design. My viewpoint is contrary to most audiophile thinking which often prioritizes the overstuffing of rooms with a lustful collection of trophy gear regardless of what it sounds like and IMO explains why audio continues to fight an uphill battle for sales - the premise just doesn't make much sense.
Frankly most of the concepts in speaker design had occurred before any of us were born. In our lifetimes ground breaking advancements in loudspeakers have been limited, to the Heil folded tweeter, Martin King's MathCad design application, and the KEF coincidental (not simply coaxial) driver. No new cabinet types have been invented, just improved materials and testing techniques have been developed in the past 70+ years. The most progress we made relating to speakers has probably been in the understanding of room acoustics thanks to the Canadian Research Council and a few others.
Your not a "hard ass". Just an ASS.
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Sorry, should have posted this a couple of years ago. Would that have made it more palatable?
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This is a nice (short) retrospective:
https://youtu.be/bwdmO_jQ1_0
RIP
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Sorry, should have posted this a couple of years ago. Would that have made it more palatable?
Based on the articles I've read, one of his major contributions to audio was just being a decent and giving human being.
I'd say that counts for a lot these days.
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This is a nice (short) retrospective:
https://youtu.be/bwdmO_jQ1_0
RIP
Very nice John, thanks for sharing.
Best,
Anand.
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This is a nice (short) retrospective:
https://youtu.be/bwdmO_jQ1_0
RIP
She is one classy lady. I wish her and the Wilson family the best during this difficult time.
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Nice comic made for DW (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41450&d=1527688880)
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JLM - Not sure why you posted that comment. All I can think is that some people have to make anything that happens good or bad about themselves. Are we supposed to think of your tremendous insight and disregard what a talented man has done for the high fidelity community? I put you in the Roseane category. Crude comment, very disrespectful and not needed. But then is this post becoming about you?
DW- RIP. I think your speakers and contributions were tremendous. The Duette was one of the best small speakers I ever heard.
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JLM - Not sure why you posted that comment. All I can think is that some people have to make anything that happens good or bad about themselves. Are we supposed to think of your tremendous insight and disregard what a talented man has done for the high fidelity community? I put you in the Roseane category. Crude comment, very disrespectful and not needed. But then is this post becoming about you?
Just tired of so many getting suckered into the marketing hype that surrounds audio and folks being too politically correct to be honest.
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Just tired of so many getting suckered into the marketing hype that surrounds audio and folks being too politically correct to be honest.
again JL, while I agree with your thoughts, this particular thread was not the one to voice them.
advice .......... quit while you're behind.
as for DW, sad....RIP
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I am personally not a fan of big Wilson speakers because they are set up too hot for ears and QPR isn't very good -- they have to recoup marketing cost somewhere. There is an underdog quality to Audio Circle that favors small guys offering quality products at reasonable prices. Flip side of that is poopooing companies that have made the "big" time. There are many reasons why they made it including marketing, capital resources, hard work and luck but they can't make it without quality products that stand the test of time. The Wilson speakers don't suit my taste but I won't fault them for their quality build.
I respect any person/company that makes enough profit to "thrive" in this business. DW, you done good. (https://m.popkey.co/4553a6/1zjgD_f-maxage-0.gif?c=popkey-web&p=popkey&i=emoji--reactions&l=direct&f=.gif) RIP.
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JLM - Not sure why you posted that comment. All I can think is that some people have to make anything that happens good or bad about themselves.
The same can be said for your comment. In fairness to JLM, he deleted it long before you posted your comment.
As for what he said, that his his OPINION. This site allows that. Personally I find mob mentality far more offensive.
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JLM, KEF licensed the Dual Concentric technology from Tannoy years ago.
If one doesn't have anything nice to say about a nice deceased gentleman, a gentleman manages not to say it...
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The Wilson speakers that I have personally heard were excellent products that compared favorably with most of the top of the RMAF rooms. I've always defended their quality even if I could not support their value. Dave Wilson made a positive contribution, and was a fervent supporter and spokesperson for high quality audio. He will be missed.
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KEF newer technology uses 'concidental' not just 'coaxial' design (being a single driver speaker owner I'm a fan of both). The Blade and LS50 tweeter and midrange driver voice coils occupy the same position in all 3 dimensions to provide correct off axis phase performance from any direction.
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KEF newer technology uses 'concidental' not just 'coaxial' design (being a single driver speaker owner I'm a fan of both). The Blade and LS50 tweeter and midrange driver voice coils occupy the same position in all 3 dimensions to provide correct off axis phase performance from any direction.
Yeah, the KEF's I've heard at RMAF over the years all sounded phenomenal. Now it makes sense why. Better technology.
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The Wilson speakers that I have personally heard were excellent products that compared favorably with most of the top of the RMAF rooms. I've always defended their quality even if I could not support their value. Dave Wilson made a positive contribution, and was a fervent supporter and spokesperson for high quality audio. He will be missed.
When I first started in high end audio, I went and listened to tons of speakers (back when there were still lots of places that sold them). I always thought that Wilsons were some of the best. The cabinets alone were unbelievable. They were too expensive for me, though. (Even their "bookshelf" speakers were over 10 grand, I seem to remember.) I did look for used versions of Wilsons for a while, but bought some speakers (Linns) from a friend, then found this website, bought VMPS RM40s (new), then Salk HT3s (used). To my ears, RM40s were the best of the three I had, but my wife didn't like the looks of the massive coffins. I still have the Linns and the Salks.
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Interesting discussion about the Wilson Audio house sound. I've always viewed them as getting all the parts right and forgetting the whole. Perfect frequency response, amazing dynamics, hyper detailed, and I was always happier listening to some other, less perfect speaker. Regardless of my poor opinion, Dave Wilson advanced the state of the art of home speakers exponentially. And by all accounts was a really great human being, which at the end is way more important than any accomplishments.
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KEF newer technology uses 'concidental' not just 'coaxial' design (being a single driver speaker owner I'm a fan of both). The Blade and LS50 tweeter and midrange driver voice coils occupy the same position in all 3 dimensions to provide correct off axis phase performance from any direction.
+Plus :thumb:
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RIP David and condolences to family.
JLM, KEF licensed the Dual Concentric technology from Tannoy years ago.
No, not that I'm aware of. Please provide a link to support this.
KEF Uni-Q is patented by KEF and they do not use Tannoys DC design which places the tweeter behind the woofer, non-coincident.
There are companies that have licensed Uni-Q from KEF, like SEAS. Perhaps that is what you are referring to.
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I literally purchased Wilsons days before his passing. They won out in a side by side with Sopra 3's on two different amps. I never thought I would own some even though I always liked them. They are wow good. I'm delaying putting my Salk's up for sale because they are so custom (to me).
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AJ, I was told this years ago by a KEF dealer. I tried to phone Tannoy in Canada and 2 times got a message that the call could not be completed. If I am wrong I apologize and will not defend my statement further.
Doug
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I literally purchased Wilsons days before his passing. They won out in a side by side with Sopra 3's on two different amps. I never thought I would own some even though I always liked them. They are wow good. I'm delaying putting my Salk's up for sale because they are so custom (to me).
Which Wilson model did you get? The Sopra 3s are a good one too.
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Interesting discussion about the Wilson Audio house sound. I've always viewed them as getting all the parts right and forgetting the whole. Perfect frequency response, amazing dynamics, hyper detailed, and I was always happier listening to some other, less perfect speaker. Regardless of my poor opinion, Dave Wilson advanced the state of the art of home speakers exponentially. And by all accounts was a really great human being, which at the end is way more important than any accomplishments.
well said ...........
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Which Wilson model did you get? The Sopra 3s are a good one too.
Sasha
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Awesome speaker BRM
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180914)
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BRM, I heard the Sasha 2 at RMAF this yr and it was the best in show. Let us know how you find it. I wanted to buy it and my wife said I need to sell some speakers first. Very very nice speaker. Enjoy and do report on your listening experiences
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What a thread. This was a RIP thread and not a commentary on a good man's passing due to a tragic disease. He is a human being and has a family. I guess that the person who trashed David, would say the same things to his family face to face??? I hope not, but now days you never know. If you don't like his speakers, just start a thread for that and let it blow up, but not the RIP thread.
Just a sad commentary on how folks act on the net. RIP to a very good human being. It's been a difficult time for the Wilson family as it would e for any of us. I pray that those who jump on him in this thread don't have to deal with disease in their own family as many of us do/have/will. This isn't a question of politically correct, it's a question of the poorest of judgment.
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Sorry, should have posted this a couple of years ago. Would that have made it more palatable?
Too late. You have already by your post that you deleted, that you have NO class. I sure hope people don't say things about you when you pass on. Karma has a way to get ya.
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Too late. You have already by your post that you deleted, that you have NO class. I sure hope people don't say things about you when you pass on. Karma has a way to get ya.
Why wait? Just say whatever else you like about me now. Use PM if you like.
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It would be really nice if you can take your posts to another thread that you can start. Many of us are pretty sad about folks passing who we knew or have followed even. Many of these men are just great guys who do good for others, while building a strong company. It's shocking that a RIP thread has any post trashing the person. Time to move on.
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All he said was he didn't like the product(s) very much. He didn't piss on the guy's grave, or 'trash' him IMO. Some perspective please.
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Operator error
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All he said was he didn't like the product(s) very much. He didn't piss on the guy's grave, or 'trash' him IMO. Some perspective please.
+1
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It's really simple. This is a RIP thread. Show some restraint and respect.
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All he said was he didn't like the product(s) very much. He didn't piss on the guy's grave, or 'trash' him IMO. Some perspective please.
db, it's a RIP thread about a good man. It's not about liking, not liking or disliking marketing etc... Start a thread if you want about whatever, but this thread has jumped the shark because someone wanted to trash a company. David was a great guy and a great marketer. He built a great company. He built a strong business. Can't fault a man for wanting to do something he believed in. Many of us don't own or would never own his speakers, but this wasn't the thread for that. It's pretty simple and was classless to make a post like he did. He may even be a good guy, just made a bad post. Simple as that.
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...this thread has jumped the shark because someone wanted to trash a company.
No, this thread "jumped the shark" as you put it because you and a few other people couldn't ignore that *one* comment. That *one* comment was retracted two weeks ago and yet here you are still carrying on about it. :duh: :thumbdown:
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I never met Dave Wilson. Never tried. His products did not interest me. Never have. The entire Wilson mythos, to me, was a marketing accomplishment. For reasons we may never know, Harry Pearson chose Wilson (and a few dozen other vendors) to be lionized on a monthly basis while ignoring, or occasionally denigrating most others. It looked like collusion to me. Just a typical insider cabal.
There have been many threads, here and elsewhere, which have debated the merits vs. pricing of Wilson speakers. Usually they broke down along elitist lines. Wilson was defended for its pricing by commenters citing the R&D and material costs involved in bringing such elite product to the market place. Someone pointed out that a brand new, fully loaded Toyota Camry cost about the same as a stock pair of WATT speakers. Try to imagine which of those two options sported more R&D and material cost. Then consider the advertising, labor, and transportation costs and the facilities needed for each enterprise. How can you conclude from that comparison that the WATT was realistically priced?
Maybe Dave Wilson was a saint. The evidence supporting that allegation continues to elude me but I am steadfastly confident that his products were a very poor value when sonic performance/dollar required is the applied metric. So, while I will never miss him, I'm sure that many do.
In my opinion all of this hand-wringing over JLM's comment is preposterous. Like me, he did not find the Wilson products interesting. So what? This isn't the first or most glaring example of manufactured sanctity. It reflects the activities of the "star making machinery" that Joni mentioned in her lyrics. To the hysterically practical audiophile like me and JLM, there is no allure emanating from the Wilson oeuvre. I sold the products for a time as a Listen Up employee. We also had Vandersteen, Magnaplanar, Apogee, B&W, Klipsch and others that eclipsed Wilson on my value scale. So I don't see the big loss to our industry at all. Of course, that consideration must be ignored in the face of what he meant to his family --- and I guess that is the gist of why JLM is catching flak. He did not couch his observations in such a way as to avoid any possibility of conflation between Dave as a person and his rightful place in audio history.
Like all of us, he will be forgotten soon enough. Ashes to ashes ........... and all that. The industry in which he lived is dying too. Turn, turn, turn. Wilson speakers worked. Signal in - sound out. Aside from taste in sonic results, that's all that any brand offers. Pricing is a much more tangible value system than acoustics --- or so I have heard.
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Agree, Tyson. His tone, content and grammar all point toward a learning disability. I didn't quite get his point. Is he actually promoting Trump? Why is he shaking his damn head? Are you one of the two-faced ones? Am I?
I have no idea. But, back on topic - I do think that RIP threads are a good place to discuss someone's impact on the industry. And that it can be done in a respectful manner. For Wilson, I agree with you, his products were not my cuppa. But I respect what he was trying to do from an engineering standpoint (go to extreme lengths to deal with cabinet resonances and develop perfectly aligned leading edge time arrival).
The other place his company had a large impact (along with companies like Krell, Levinson, a few others) is that they really ran with the idea of audio as a luxury product, and all that entailed. Which touches on the things brought up in your post. Which mostly comes down to the idea of "I want (and I am) the best and I'm willing to pay for it". And in fact, the absurd prices were partly implemented as a mechanism to drive elitism. "Buy Wilson, it's the very, very, very best, which only a very few people can afford." For certain types of people, that's catnip.
In the end, I see them more like BMW - high performance, high price, creates a niche within the upper middle (and lower upper) class clientele, all who wanted something that would look beautiful or was visually stunning to go along with the raw performance. Very low value, I agree. But I don't think Wilson was ever actually interested in the "high value" market.
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The other place his company had a large impact (along with companies like Krell, Levinson, a few others) is that they really ran with the idea of audio as a luxury product, and all that entailed.
In the end, I see them more like BMW - high performance, high price, creates a niche within the upper middle (and lower upper) class clientele, all who wanted something that would look beautiful or was visually stunning to go along with the raw performance. Very low value, I agree. But I don't think Wilson was ever actually interested in the "high value" market.
Bang on. I had a friend - he died about 20 years ago - who bought the Levinson 33 reference amps back in the day. He knew there were better sounding amps for less money, but that did not matter to him.
When Wilson went after the uber expensive market there were few players, so he was one of the first in the industry to capitalize on the vanity of the wealthy, which turned out to be very lucrative. Now there are many players all seeking a slice of that pie, which as you indicated is, very low value, very expensive and visually compelling. IMO, they add nothing to the market or even the industry for that matter.
Harry Pierson wasn’t doing anyone a favour (but those particular manufacturers) much less the industry by his promotion of this over priced nonsense.
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It's really simple. This is a RIP thread. Show some restraint and respect.
+1 We're talking about a human being with a family. It shouldn't be so hard to show some decency if not restraint. Regardless of how you feel about him or his products, anything negative or critical really should be talked about in other threads where there's plenty of open space.
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I don’t think some people can understand RIP or respecting a human beings life, his family. Maybe they don’t want to do so. My understanding is that some people just like to make noise so that others will notice them. Some people want others to see how brilliant they are, in pointing out some marketing thing, something technical that makes a product inferior. Something they teach all of us dummies. Are we supposed to believe that some of these peolple are smarter that Mr Wilson himself? That they are more successsful in much better or significant ways? Should anybody need to point out that one can put those conceited types of self boasting ideas aside for a moment and just “see” something positive another person has done in their life? I feel this type of sharing is just a waste of time spent on people who don’t deserve the effort...
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I'm not for censorship.
I'm simply for at least acting like decent human beings online or not. I think most people here are intelligent and at least comprehend the idea of respect. This isn't a funeral, but I think the general concept is that we conduct ourselves accordingly. There is plenty of space elsewhere, including on AC, for critical and/or negative discussion. That's cool. Differing points of view are important, but there's always a time and place. If it's really that important to you, start a thread here on AC on the topic of how terrible Wilson speakers are. It's easy and I'm sure others will participate openly.