AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Well Tempered Lab => Topic started by: blefebvre on 23 May 2019, 02:02 am
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Hey all,
Picked up a new Versalex recently. I took it for its maiden voyage today, outfitting it with a Denon 304 cart with VTF at about 1.3g, which is within in the company’s recommended range. The problem I’m having is that the anti-skate force is too strong - the tonearm keeps gliding back to the tonearm rest as soon as I let go of it. When it is on the record, it will start skipping even when the vinyl is close to NM. I’ve checked the 1.5 turns and counterclockwise twist on the filament two or three times now to make sure I have it right - all is in order on that front. Could this be a case of not enough gel in the cup? I put in a minimum amount as per Mike Pranka’s suggestion, but wondering if I need to put in more to offer more resistance to the antiskate force. Thoughts?
Ben
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194771)
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You seem to have done everything correctly regarding set-up. The anti-skate force is 99% that of the twist in the thread and so there is no way you can get this wrong unless you have put more than one twist in the thread as per a video on the WTL site which is just plain wrong. To be clear, there should only be one half twist ie the thread DOES NOT rotate all the way round the other, just crosses over in the direction that pulls the arm back towards the rest and not towards the label which you have done so.
So the ONLY explanation for your issue is one of two possibilities. 1. the tracking force is too low (check that what ever you are setting this by is accurate. 2. not enough silicon in the cup. Hold the tonearm mid-way and push the arm backwards and forwards to feel the resistance, if you can't feel any then that's the issue; there should be some. Add a small quantity more, say, half a teaspoon full and leave for 30 mins for it to settle (easy to remove with a cotton bud used like a honey spoon if you need to but again leave to settle).
You should also try a different cartridge in case there is an issue with the Denon perhaps.
Good luck
K
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Thanks for that. I’m feeling a little bit of resistance. The gel, as far as I can tell, reaches up maybe 1/4" up the golfball. Tracking force is at about 1.3g from my latest measurement. I didn’t have this problem at all on the WTL Amadeus I had used previously. Right now I’m wondering if this cart tracks too low for this tonearm, or maybe the silicon gel the dealer included with the arm is not the correct viscosity. It’s kind of annoying- the tonearm doesn’t slowly creep toward the tonearm rest, it fairly purposeful in its path. I’ll consult the dealer as well.
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FWIW, as I'm assuming set-up for the Amadeus pretty much mimics that of the Versalex? Regardless, the bottom 1/3 of golf ball (not 1/4) is immersed in the silicon in my Amadeus set up. Also for the record, I've used both a Soundsmith cart that tracked at the very same 1.3 G you mention and a Denon 103R that tracks at roughly twice that tracking force ( 2.5G) without issue. Yes, consult the dealer.
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but I see the OP confirms using 1.5 turns but the second post says there should only be half a twist and that a video that shows more than one twist is incorrect. Isn't there an inconsistency there... should there be 1.5 or 0.5 twists for proper A/S?
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but I see the OP confirms using 1.5 turns but the second post says there should only be half a twist and that a video that shows more than one twist is incorrect. Isn't there an inconsistency there... should there be 1.5 or 0.5 twists for proper A/S?
Just to be clear if I may( I speak both as a Versalex user and dealer for WTL).
It is essential that the thread is wound round the steel disc that is mounted on the hanger above the arm 1.5 times so that the thread is in contact with the entire circumference of said disc and that then a 180 degree anti-clockwise twist is then applied before the disc is pushed onto the hanger rod. If the former is not done ie the thread is merely looped over the discs then the twist with exert more negative force
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I just checked mine and it looks like there is only one twist. A local dealer set it up. Also, hard to tell, but I think the silicone goes up to about 1/3 of the ball.
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Just to be clear if I may( I speak both as a Versalex user and dealer for WTL).
It is essential that the thread is wound round the steel disc that is mounted on the hanger above the arm 1.5 times so that the thread is in contact with the entire circumference of said disc and that then a 180 degree anti-clockwise twist is then applied before the disc is pushed onto the hanger rod. If the former is not done ie the thread is merely looped over the discs then the twist with exert more negative force
Thanks very much for the clarification! :thumb:
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Yup, checked again - 1.5 loop and 180-degree counterclockwise twist. This is what it’s like now:
https://youtu.be/kEXoWQrwayw
Not sure if that’s normal. Didn’t seem to be that much anti-skate force when I was using the Amadeus....
Having said that, part of the tracking problem I had earlier could probably be chalked up to the tonearm lift being a tad too high - I think it was snagging the tonearm wand slightly. I lowered it a bit.
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Having said all this, the Versalex is a beautiful sounding table. This is the only real “issue.” 8)
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Having said all this, the Versalex is a beautiful sounding table. This is the only real “issue.” 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKMhigE5VqQ
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKMhigE5VqQ
The video tells it all. A simple half twist in the direction shown. The Amadeus manual says the same. Never heard of 1.5 twists.
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Kimiimacman has covered this already, but the 1.5 number refers to that "lap" the thread has to take around the azimuth adjustment collar.
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Yup, checked again - 1.5 loop and 180-degree counterclockwise twist. This is what it’s like now:
https://youtu.be/kEXoWQrwayw
Not sure if that’s normal. Didn’t seem to be that much anti-skate force when I was using the Amadeus....
Having said that, part of the tracking problem I had earlier could probably be chalked up to the tonearm lift being a tad too high - I think it was snagging the tonearm wand slightly. I lowered it a bit.
Looking at our video I think I may know what your problem is; I reckon you could actually be tracking at close to zero gram. Why? because it could be that the scales you are using are not suitable for this job inasmuch as the pad onto which you are resting the stylus is ferrous and the magnet in the cartridge is being attracted to it giving you a reading of 1.44g but when you took the arm away it lifted and remain up which is a negative weight. I have witnessed this before.
The deck you have is pre-2017 as WTL have made some cosmetic changes in the meantime and those older decks (mine is the same) came with a cheap but reliable electronic scale. If you don't have one then the Ortofon balance scale is pretty accurate, enough to get you in the right zone, then just by ear.
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I have just set up my store’s Versalex with a cart at 1.0g using a Shure SFG2 scale. The arm has sufficient VTF to ensure the arm makes good contact to the lift-lower pad unlike in your video so cannot return towards the rest. When set to I’m confident of my previous posted comments
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You should also be aware that scales are only accurate with this tonearm when the contact point is equal to the height of an LP. If your scales are much higher then the measured VTF is lower than when playing
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Ah, thanks for that. Man, never even heard of that issue with the digital scales. I’ll check on it. I’m not sure, though - like I said, I had no problem with a Denon 301mkii on my Amadeus. But it’s definitely worth looking further into that. I’ll report back later - leaving on holiday for the long weekend, so won’t have time to fiddle. Which I’m sure will be good for my mental health, if nothing else.
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When I saw the video you posted, there is no way the arm would have drifted aimlessly upward if any downward tracking force were truly applied. As Kimiimacman has already noted, the scale appears to be the culprit to some extent. I guess that's why I have 3 scales including the Shure already mentioned. Thankfully they all somewhat agree, but the most accurate I believe is the Riverstone. It captures VTF at a position that pretty much replicates the thickness of an album. In the meantime, enjoy the weekend :D
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Just picked up the Ortofon plastic scale on eBay. I used to have the Shure scale, but the metal bent during shipping and I never trusted it after that. I may pick up the Riverside scale down the line - Thanks for the tip. I do like the convenience of a digital scale, though it seems to have tripped me up in this instance. The one in the video came with a used turntable I bought years ago - I guess now I know why the former owner “gifted” it to me.
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Does that mean you have got it working correctly now? If so, I'm glad I could help.
ATB
K
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This post has sparked my thoughts so I compared my Digital Scale (that came with my WTL Amadeus GTA II) and my Shure SFG-2 Stylus Gauge. They are different. The digital scale reads 1.52 Tracking Force and the Shure scale reads abou 1.48. I think I will believe my Shure SFG-2 Guage. Though it does sit a little higher from the platter so maybe it all evens out and they are both accurate?
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TBH the scales that come with the Versalex have a tolerance, try repeated measurements and you'll see a small difference. Both scales get you in the same ball-park as you've demonstrated but NEVER rely on the numbers, listen and adjust within the cartridge manufacturer's limits, it's usually worth the effort :thumb:
K
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Make sure the table is level, too.
But seems what you describe is most likely the AS twist.
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This post has sparked my thoughts so I compared my Digital Scale (that came with my WTL Amadeus GTA II) and my Shure SFG-2 Stylus Gauge. They are different. The digital scale reads 1.52 Tracking Force and the Shure scale reads abou 1.48. I think I will believe my Shure SFG-2 Guage. Though it does sit a little higher from the platter so maybe it all evens out and they are both accurate?
If the digital is like one of these jewelers scales......
https://www.amazon.com/Proster-Turntable-Backlight-Cartridge-Brilliant/dp/B06XP27LCR/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_267_tr_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=QQGF56ZTF1C6K414V9M8
.....I'd trust it over the Shure. Calibrate the digital scale by weighing a US nickel. It should be exactly 5.0 grams. A US penny after 1983 is exactly 2.5 grams.
I do believe that for uni-pivot arms the digital scale will be fairly inaccurate if you place it on the platter. For reliable results you need to remove the platter and place the scale on something such that its weighing platform is exactly at record height.
I did the comparison -- digital scale on platter vs. off platter -- with my uni-pivot arms (when I had them) and the VTF results were quite different.
With gimbal / fixed bearing arms the digital scale can be placed on the platter without much loss of accuracy. With my 3 gimbal arms the VTF is about .05 grams heavier vs. removing the platter and getting the scale platform to exact record height.
BTW.....what makes you think you can get your stated accuracy (to the hundredths of a gram) from a Shure balance scale, simply by using your eye? I have one and the method in theory seems perfect but in practice strikes me as kindof crude, and I surely wouldn't trust my ability to read it that precisely.
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Just completing the thread. It was the scale that was the issue. I went to an Ortofon plastic “see saw” scale and that at least got me into the range required without any issues. But after a while of listening to this cartridge, it just didn’t seem to fit the arm - maybe a compliance issue? The 301mkii I had used before sounded fantastic, but was also 3 grams lighter. I’ve fiddled with the 304 quite a bit and just cannot get it to sing as well as the 301mkii. I also threw a Grado F1 on the arm -and the digital scale worked perfectly for that cartridge - and it sounded at least as good as the 304 in most respects.
So yeah - it was the scale causing the problem. Thanks!