Puzzled by Airport Express and Arcam AVR350 issues

stevecuss · « **on:** 23 Jan 2016, 01:37 pm »

Hi Folks, I'd appreciate any guidance as I'm stumped. Here's the deal:

I previously streamed iTunes - AE - optical cable - rotel rsp985 using the DAC in the rotel. Everything worked just peachy.

I have upgraded the Rotel separates to an Arcam AVR350. Everything works through the Arcam optical EXCEPT my airport express. I've tried: cd player, macbook, apple tv and AE and they all send a happy digital signal to the arcam except the Airport Express. It happily sends an analog signal through RCAs, but not a digital one through optical.

For troubleshooting, I have confirmed that the cable is good, the optical out of the AE is good (it worked fine on the rotel), the optical in on Arcam is good.

My only two possibilities are:

1) I damaged the optical out of the AE when unplugging from the rotel. (unlikely.)
2) The arcam somehow cannot translate AE's signal

I called Arcam and apple and they are both stumped.

Am I missing something? Has anyone run into this issue before? No doubt, it is a good excuse to get a nice external DAC, but I'd like to at least understand why this is happening. I appreciate any feedback

Doublej · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 03:48 pm »

Have you confirmed that you can connect the AE back into the Rotel and it works? That's where I would start.

If you can get your hands on another AE to try with the Arcam that might help narrow down where the problem lies. If the Arcam works with another AE, it makes your AE suspect. If not it makes the Arcam the more likely culprit.

I am not familiar with the AE so I don't know if there might be a configuration setting change on either end that is needed.

Or a reset of one or both of the devices.

avta · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 04:25 pm »

I'll venture a guess that your Arcam is unable to decode the AE digital output.

srb · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 04:31 pm »

Previous versions of the Airport Express do have somewhat higher jitter on the optical output than a lot of devices. There were problems using it with ESS Sabre DACs, enough so that Peachtree Audio on some of their integrated amplifiers had a special optical input with "reduced jitter aperture" specifically to accommodate the AE.

Although I think the Arcam AVR350 has Wolfson DACs, a number of people have had problems using the AE with various Arcam AVR models and separate standalone Arcam DACs, although the problems were reported as mostly random stuttering versus no sound at all, but still made the application unusable.

Which version of the Airport Express do you have? I have read that the latest version has reduced optical jitter, and may work for you while the previous one does not. It may be that you just have an equipment combination that will not work and no fixes and workarounds exist. If you do have the latest version, then hmmmm ......

Steve

stevecuss · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 06:26 pm »

Thanks, that's great feedback, I wasn't aware of the jitter issue. I have the older N series AE, so the jitter theory seems to fit.

I have confirmed with the rotel that the AE works fine, so that rules out damage. I wonder if the Rotel somehow is more resilient to Jitter than the Arcam?

Moving forward, I can buy a refurb 3rd gen Apple TV or spring for an external DAC.

I've heard the ATV converts all signals to 48hz, does anyone have an opinion between the sound quality of ATV vs AE?

I can also reset the AE and set it up as its own intranet just for streaming, outside of the Airport Extreme it is currently tethered to and see if that somehow helps.

I really appreciate the input so far.

thanks

Steve

srb · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 07:48 pm »

I have not had the opportunity to compare the Airport Express to the Apple TV, but as you correctly state, the Apple TV does resample to 48KHz while the Airport Express is bit-perfect (up to it's 16/48 limitation), so it is my choice for audio applications.

The Airport Express also has a little more Swiss Army versatility, beside it being able to function as a router or print server, it does have a decent internal DAC with analog output. I have several of the same A1264 (N) model that you have which are all currently using the internal DAC and analog output, so that gives a little more functionality down the road should it be re-purposed into a secondary (perhaps less critical) analog system.

My AEs did work fine via optical output into a Rotel receiver as well as several DACs, including Emotiva, MHDT and Stello, but as you're experiencing, not every combo is successful. I would assume the current new Airport Express would work well for you, but since there isn't much to save buying online, it might be more convenient to purchase local at a Best Buy or such in the very small chance it doesn't work and needs to be returned.

Steve

stevecuss · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 09:10 pm »

Great feedback, thanks very much. I certainly like the flexibility the AE offers and it is a good suggestion to buy one locally and return it if need be. I may also try an external tube DAC and see what I think of a dedicated DAC

thanks very much for the guidance

Steve

stevecuss · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Jan 2016, 11:29 pm »

Alright friends, the plot thickens....

I received a Grant Fidelity Tube DAC-11 and it has all the usual digital inputs as well as analog in. The AEX won't communicate with the tube Dac either.

To summarize:

1) AEX - toslink cable - Arcam AVR350 Optical in = no signal.

2) AEX - toslink cable - Tube Dac = no signal.

3) Apple TV - same cable (without 3.5 mm adapter) - Tube Dac or AVR350 = signal.

I hooked up my old rotel separates again to make sure the AEX optical out sends a signal and of course:

4) AEX - same cable with 3.5 mm adapter - Rotel = signal.

I also own Airfoil and stream spotify through it. Same issue with airfoil, so I don't believe the problem is software/itunes related.

So I can only assume that the AEX has jitter or some other issue that the Rotel happens to be impervious to, but that the Arcam AVR350 and the Tube DAC can't manage.

At this point I think my best option is to buy an extra Apple TV for music in this new setup and relegate the AEX to a print server in the other room. Second option is to buy or borrow a friend's AEX and see if this particular device is peskier than another.

I'm open to any other thoughts or pathways

Steve

avta · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Jan 2016, 11:58 pm »

The latest model of the Apple TV does not have a digital output as earlier models did. It's also more expensive. You might look for a gen 3 ATV if you want to go that route.

stevecuss · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Jan 2016, 12:08 am »

Yes, thanks for catching that ATVA, I'd plan to get a refurb 3rd Gen for the optical out. I'm curious how noticeably the change in sample rate affects sound quality

srb · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Jan 2016, 12:09 am »

Now that you've tried another DAC unsuccessfully with the AEX, I'm thinking it could possibly be the use of the adapter that is problematic. Can you get your hands a on a mini-TOSLINK to TOSLINK cable that doesn't require use of a 3.5mm adapter?

Steve

stevecuss · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Jan 2016, 12:15 am »

Quote from: srb on 30 Jan 2016, 12:09 am

Now that you've tried another DAC unsuccessfully with the AEX, I'm thinking it could possibly be the use of the adapter that is problematic. Can you get your hands a on a mini-TOSLINK to TOSLINK cable that doesn't require use of a 3.5mm adapter?

Steve

Yep, I sure could try that. Does it make sense to you that somehow this adapter doesn't bother the Rotel but it bothers the other two devices?

Also, when I use the same cable and adapter into my macbook directly, it works just fine, FYI

srb · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Jan 2016, 04:14 am »

Quote from: stevecuss on 30 Jan 2016, 12:15 am

Does it make sense to you that somehow this adapter doesn't bother the Rotel but it bothers the other two devices?

My AEXs worked fine with 4 different DACs I tried it with (using mini-TOSLINK cable). I personally knew of one person that had problems using an adapter that subsequently worked fine with an adapter-less cable.

Perhaps the optical transmitter module in the AEX is a bit weak and the Rotel's optical receiver module is very sensitive. It was just one more variation to try, but I may just be grasping at straws.

Steve

cody69 · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Jan 2016, 01:38 pm »

Quote

I'm thinking it could possibly be the use of the adapter that is problematic.

I was also thinking this may possibly be the culprit... weakening or distorting the signal enough that certain DACs can't lock in on the signal.
So far I've connected my AEX to Musical Fidelity and FiiO DACs -- directly with cable (no adapter), and have fortunately not encountered any issue.

Hope this solves your issue. Please keep us posted.

stevecuss · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Jan 2016, 01:48 pm »

Thanks everyone. I ordered a mini optical - optical cable from Amazon so I'll update again on Tuesday. I am also hoping to borrow a friend's AEX to see if his behaves nicer and will post an update Tuesday night.

stevecuss · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Feb 2016, 01:25 am »

Friends,

Success! The mini optical - optical cable arrived today and the Arcam was happy with the digital signal and played music without hitch for several songs until it was time for supper.

Of course, to add to the weirdness, the Grant Fidelity won't recognize the digital signal when I route the AEX through it. The GF still plays nice with the Apple TV, so my wife and I did a little A/B between the Arcam DAC and the GF Tube Dac and while they do sound different, they both sound very good to be somewhat negligible in my opinion.

thanks everyone for helping trouble shoot - I would not have thought to try a different cable with a fixed adapter on it. Still puzzling that the Tube Dac won't play nice with it, but we're on the right track

stevecuss · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Feb 2016, 12:07 am »

Just to close the loop finally, I picked up a used newest version of AEX on craigslist and tried it. It behaves well with the Tube Dac, so clearly something about the particular older AEX was the issue.

Thanks again everyone for your suggestions and advice

Peter J · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Feb 2016, 06:55 am »

I'm going to piggyback on this thread because I know almost nothing about Airports. My purpose would be to occasionally stream from iPad to either Wyred DAC 2 or could be analog to preamp. Several on Craigslist for what seems reasonable $$. What model should I be looking for? How do I identify? Thanks.

srb · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Feb 2016, 08:33 am »

Quote from: Peter J on 6 Feb 2016, 06:55 am

Several on Craigslist for what seems reasonable $$. What model should I be looking for? How do I identify?

1st choice: 3rd Generation A1392 (Latest model)
similar form factor to Apple TV with detachable power cord

2nd choice: 2nd Generation A1264 Wireless N (Older model)
integral right angle power plug

Avoid: 1st Generation A1084 Wireless G (First model)
integral right angle power plug (looks exactly like 2nd Generation A1264)

Steve

Peter J · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Feb 2016, 07:36 pm »

Quote from: srb on 6 Feb 2016, 08:33 am

1st choice: 3rd Generation A1392 (Latest model)
similar form factor to Apple TV with detachable power cord

2nd choice: 2nd Generation A1264 Wireless N (Older model)
integral right angle power plug

Avoid: 1st Generation A1084 Wireless G (First model)
integral right angle power plug (looks exactly like 2nd Generation A1264)

Steve

Perfect...thanks Steve. I'm on the hunt.