AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: lacro on 22 Jul 2012, 01:26 pm
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Greetings all...
I am fairly new here. I recently picked up the XL-S Encore kit from Danny, and I thought being new to speaker building, I should document my build so anyone "on the fence" considering a build may learn from my experiences (mistakes :duh:).
A little background about how I got to this point: I put together a 5C HT set-up in a small room many years ago with an HK receiver and some Paradigm front,center, and surround speakers. I also built an Adire Audio Tempest sub in a very large box with plate amp. The system works good for HT, but I was never satisfied with 2 channel listening, and I kind of drifted away from music listening.
Then... in the last few years, a couple of things happened that changed my thinking about music, and now has me starting over from scratch. First, I discovered Pandora which has opened up a whole new world. I now subscribe to Pandora 1 (the paid subscription). I even bought the stock during the IPO!
I know most don't think of streaming audio as real music listening, but for discovering new artists/songs, it's superb! The second thing was I discovered "T" amps. I bought a PE DT100A to use with my new Desktop PC. I pulled my Paradigm Atoms (old version) from surround duty for my new nearfield PC listening. WOW!!
I am now hooked.... don't know how far I will go with my new found hobby, but I am already learning about the different separates I "need" :D to keep my happy!
On to the build:
I have always had a difficult time getting square cuts with my table saw. It's a good old Craftsman model with cast iron table, but the fence is not so good. So, I decided to build a sled for it. There are dozens of designs on the web. I picked a simple one and put it together with scraps I had.
(http://i.imgur.com/lR4YWl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/NGXL9l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/vNqqLl.jpg)
I works great for the cross cut of the narrow width, however, when doing the long length which is a rip and should have a fence, it was difficult to hold the piece from moving.
I made a jig to use with my router to square the pieces that were out of square. It worked very well , why don"t I just buy a new fence for the table saw!! :scratch:
(http://i.imgur.com/Zmw2Zl.jpg)
That's it for now, I need to get back to work on these boxes. More to follow.
Larry
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I spent most of today cutting the MDF for my speakers. BTW/ I have never bought MDF. There is a local cabinet shop that I "Dumpster Dive" They throw out anything less than a half sheet of MDF at the end of each CNC cut job. I had some left from other projects, just enough for this build.
I finally got all the pieces cut square, and moved on to cutting the holes. I don't have a Jasper Jig, so I made my own for this project. If I start building more speakers, I will probably invest in one. However, I had great success with my home made Jig. Also, I used 2 different routers, I own a Harbor Freight $20 cheapie Trim Router that works pretty good, but I couldn't get it to stop slipping down in the pinch frame while cutting, so I bought a Bosch trim router.
These little trim routers are great for ease of handling when you don't need the big guns. I started out using the HF router because MDF is really dusty and I wanted to save my new Bosch. However, the HF kept giving me trouble, but I found a mod that has fixed it. Speaker building requires a router, but don't let that deter you. The HF trim router will do just fine with your homemade circle jig. I did most of my cuts with the Bosch, but the HF is now ready for the next project.
(http://i.imgur.com/DVKb7l.jpg)
I don't have a plunge router, but the little trim routers are so light, I just used a 1/8" dill bit for a pivot, just let the router slide down the bit while running. It worked very well.
(http://i.imgur.com/8uofMl.jpg)
Checking my cut diameter before proceeding. The 1/8" bit is tight in the 3/4" MDF and worked great.
(http://i.imgur.com/zHQDbl.jpg)
Here's the mod I did to the HF trim router to keep it from moving. I ground off a spot for the bottom clamp. The top clamp fit without any grinding. I can still use the adjusting wheel for fine adjustment, but the clamps prevent any slippage. My $20 wonder is back in service..
(http://i.imgur.com/86LL1l.jpg)
Here is my homemade circle jig. I started with the HF router but when I switched to the Bosch instead of making a new one, I just swapped ends and it worked fine.
(http://i.imgur.com/XgqnLl.jpg)
I ran out of space for 1/8" pivot holes in my jig when I realized I didn't need to keep them in a straight line. I just drilled a new hole out of the line I had started :duh: See the hole at about 5 o'clock from the big hole on the left.
(http://i.imgur.com/N2SgLl.jpg)
I hope I am not boring everyone with my build. I am just enthused with my new found hobby and want to share my experience. Please let my know if I should just go away...
Larry
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Not boring. Keep them coming! :thumb:
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Yeah it's like watching MacGyver . Can't wait to see what you use to solder :D.
Just kidding of course...
Just as an aside for other readers, a person could get very serviceable plunge router for about the price of the Bosch. More powerful as well (but not as high quality). This type of stuff is easier with a plunge router.
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Build pics are always good.
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I should probably show how to use my home made circle jig for those that don't already know. I think it's easy to get perfect sizing using this method as I did. I have never used a Jasper jig, but I can't imagine it has every hole spacing necessary for all speakers which would mean a fudge factor instead of precision. However, if I keep building speakers, and I foresee I will, I will probably have to try the Jasper.
Here is how I set the distance needed: I calculate the radius needed for the hole or counter bore from the plans, and measure from the far side of the router bit to the center of the hole needed. I use a caliper to get the exact measurement. I mark the location with a mechanical pencil (thin lead) and drill a 1/8" hole with a brad point drill. It's amazing (or I am lucky) how perfect a hole you can achieve with this method. Only one hole was a little small so I used a 9/64" bit to open the hole, and used the larger hole by pulling the router tightly against the pivot pin (1/8" drill bit) to the outside of the circle while cutting. Worked great!
(http://i.imgur.com/80KXtl.jpg)
Got everything cut including all holes, counter bores, roundovers, and braces. It took a lot longer than I had originally thought :icon_surprised:
(http://i.imgur.com/sCSIPl.jpg)
These are the cutters I used:
(http://i.imgur.com/ns7Ibl.jpg)
I don't usually buy cheap cutting tools, but when I see a set of 12 router Bits for $20, I take notice and a chance :nono: To my surprise they cut just like the ones that cost more than $20 ea. Also, I took a chance on a set of $25 forstner bits, again pleasantly surprised.
(http://i.imgur.com/fYIvOl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/9yqmRl.jpg)
Don't know how everyone else cut the clearance for the tweeter wiring points, but this little drum sander worked pretty good.
(http://i.imgur.com/NdKhKl.jpg)
Next... I have to figure out a way to stop these dominoes from falling down :lol: when I get to gluing them together.
Larry
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Yeah it's like watching MacGyver . Can't wait to see what you use to solder :D.
Just kidding of course...
Just as an aside for other readers, a person could get very serviceable plunge router for about the price of the Bosch. More powerful as well (but not as high quality). This type of stuff is easier with a plunge router.
django11:
You are absolutely correct, a plunge router would make life much easier, and there are many to be had for a reasonable price. For me the new group of light weight routers are pretty sweet, especially for one handed operation. They are no longer just for "trimming laminate" As I get older I am looking for lighter tools to make my life easier. I do own a larger (fixed base) router, but it's a 2 hander for sure.
I just found out that Bosch is going to offer a plunge base for the Colt router this October :). I am sure it will cost as much as the router did, but I will probably take a look. But.. to your point, I agree, speaker building needs a plunge router if for nothing more than safety, and a cheap one should work just fine.
Larry
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That little Bosch has "constant response" which maintains motor speed at the selected rpm. That will make it more pleasant to use. Now I want one :lol:.
If you have the time, and you certainly have the skill, you can live without the Jasper Jig. It works on the same principle that you use. It increases in 1/16 inch increments:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GYK2H8WCL.jpg)
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I started gluing the boxes together using Titebond 2 without fasteners. I don't know how everyone else holds the panels without them falling over like dominoes, but I had to come up with something, and this is what worked for me:
(http://i.imgur.com/ok77Ol.jpg)
I put a couple of 7" 2x2's wrapped with waxed paper inside between the sides to help keep the sides lined up. The glue is slippery making it fun to get everything lined up while clamping.
Lesson learned: I probably should have cut the top and bottom pieces oversized by 1/16"- 1/8" in width and and trimed to size later with a router. I didn't do this and trying to keep everything square was a little difficult. :duh:
(http://i.imgur.com/OPLLol.jpg)
Larry
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Lesson learned: I probably should have cut the top and bottom pieces oversized by 1/16"- 1/8" in width and and trimed to size later with a router. I didn't do this and trying to keep everything square was a little difficult.
Experience is a good but unforgiving teacher sometimes, huh?
Looking good, what do you have planned for finishing the boxes?
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Lesson learned: I probably should have cut the top and bottom pieces oversized by 1/16"- 1/8" in width and and trimed to size later with a router. I didn't do this and trying to keep everything square was a little difficult.
Experience is a good but unforgiving teacher sometimes, huh?
Looking good, what do you have planned for finishing the boxes?
"Experience is a good but unforgiving teacher sometimes, huh?"
Peter,
It sure is... The only saving grace is I am using the cheapest material in wood working, MDF which I scored from a "dumpster dive" Nothing invested but time..
As far as finish, I am trying to decide how far I want to go with my first build. This is where I hope to rely on you guys for suggestions/support. I like doing things a little different than the norm (coolness factor). I work with wood strips building kayaks. I am comfortable using epoxy, fiberglass, carbon fiber, and carbon/Kevlar hybrid cloth (many colors). I don't know if any of these materials are a fit for cabinet finishes, but I am open for suggestions/cautions.
BTW/ I like your avatar!
Larry
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Yep they get pretty slippery. I used biscuits to line them up the second build.
For finishes, carbon fiber sounds cool and would be a little different. Good job and keep posting the pics.
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I have a 23 gauge headless pin nail gun (tiny nails) which I use to lightly assemble before clamping. If I didn't have a nail gun I would pre drill for a 1 1/2 finish nail. Sometimes I use pliers to snip the head off of a nail and use that as a drill bit to pre drill. That way it keeps everything aligned but you don't risk splitting the edge of the mdf.
I see a kayak there in the background. Very impressive!
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+ 1 on the carbon fiber. If you're into the high tech look .
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Looking good, what do you have planned for finishing the boxes?
Peter... Wow! I just looked through your gallery. You do exquisite work. I see you did a build using laminate. I have considered using laminate, but don't want a whole sheet (4x8) Where did you get your laminate, and is there a certain type/thickness you recommend?
Larry
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+ 1 on the carbon fiber. If you're into the high tech look .
Yeah, I really like CF. Before I started this build, I put together a boom box using a Tripath 2024 Sure amp and a couple of 6x9 car speakers to use in my garage/basement. I did the front baffle with CF, and it looks pretty good (to my eyes anyway). There are different weaves of carbon, and carbon combined with Kevlar that is available in several colors (the Kevlar). If I do something like that, I would only do the front baffle.
Larry
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I have a 23 gauge headless pin nail gun (tiny nails) which I use to lightly assemble before clamping. If I didn't have a nail gun I would pre drill for a 1 1/2 finish nail. Sometimes I use pliers to snip the head off of a nail and use that as a drill bit to pre drill. That way it keeps everything aligned but you don't risk splitting the edge of the mdf.
I see a kayak there in the background. Very impressive!
I actually have a narrow crown Porter Cable stapler that works pretty good for MDF. and a little finish nailer that shoots a T shaped very fine nail, but not long enough for 3/4" MDF I found that one at HF on a close-out table $6! However, I am trying to avoid steel fasteners so I have the option of doing roundovers without risking my router bits.
Yes... wood strip kayaks was my passion for many years.. I have built several.
Larry
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Peter... Wow! I just looked through your gallery. You do exquisite work. I see you did a build using laminate. I have considered using laminate, but don't want a whole sheet (4x8) Where did you get your laminate, and is there a certain type/thickness you recommend?
Larry
Larry, I get laminate from different distributors depending on brand. The common ones around here are Formica, Wilsonart, Pionite and Nevamar. Most all laminate I get now is what they used to call post-forming grade...all that means is the core of the laminate is thinner. Other than that core thickness they are the same, and that's likely what you'd be getting if you ordered from somewhere.
If it's a fairly common pattern, my suppliers will cut 4x8s and 5x12s into several sizes where they can sell the drop off pieces. For instance, 4x8 could net 4-2x4 pieces or 2-2x8s. I don't think most retail places will do this, but don't know for sure. If you'd like to try laminate and can't find the size you're after, I'd be happy to get it and ship it to you, just cover my actual $$ costs....I'm happy to help.
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Gluing the back on box 2. Not possible to own too many clamps :lol:
(http://i.imgur.com/leC2sl.jpg)
Major screw up!
In my haste to get the back on, I inadvertently flipped the back over, and glued it on upside down :duh: I will have to deal with that later. Also, I installed the braces. I used a little pneumatic brad type nailer to hold the braces with glue.
(http://i.imgur.com/dAQngl.jpg)
L
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Around here the big box renovation stores often cut up sheets of laminate that have been broken or that don't sell well. There is often a bin with 2foot x 4 foot pieces for 3 or 4 $... Sometimes you get lucky.
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When I ordered my kit from Danny, I knew full well that Danny, and most everyone else suggested using Norez. However, while talking with Danny I decided to upgrade to the X-LS Encore which added $50 to my original thought of the X-LS kit. So... I skipped the Norez for my first build (this time).
I decided I would try the floor tile method which involves a lot more time and work, but I am a glut ant for punishment :roll: I picked up the thicker tiles that are not self stick at HD. I had some contact cement (the nasty stuff) someone gave me. I Used a radial arm saw, utility knife and tin snips to make the cuts. However, just a utility knife, straight edge, and tin snips would get the same results.
Here's a stack of pre cut tiles ready for installing:
(http://i.imgur.com/vSSyxl.jpg)
All tiles glued in. It took most of an afternoon to complete, but less than $6 invested. Still need some foam though.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ghwenl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/aoFpIl.jpg)
Remember... I screwed up and glued on one of my backs the wrong way with the recess for the speaker terminals facing inside :duh: I was able to fix the problem.
(http://i.imgur.com/W4XiAl.jpg)
I used the plug from a 2-5/8" hole saw to fill the hole, and just re cut the recess with the router.
(http://i.imgur.com/iWxBzl.jpg)
When I cut my pieces for the boxes, I messed one up and cut it short. I didn't have any 3/4" "dumpster dive" MDF big enough to make a new one, so I "Improvised" :lol:
(http://i.imgur.com/FtTfyl.jpg)
Being the boat builder I am, I use tools I am familiar with: This is a flat long board sander I made. It works really well for leveling all sides of the box. It is much better than a power sander. I actually own 2 palm sanders, 1 finish sander, a random orbit sander, and several disc sanders, but the "long board" is by far my favorite!
(http://i.imgur.com/SRz8Bl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/JgkGrl.jpg)
Now... I am to the point where I have a few questions before proceeding.
(http://i.imgur.com/L4ElPl.jpg)
Larry
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Nicely done. Next step- add an inch of carpet padding, leaving a spot for your crossover.
Scott
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Nicely done. Next step- add an inch of carpet padding, leaving a spot for your crossover.
Scott
Scott,
Is carpet pad open cell?
Larry
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Scott,
Is carpet pad open cell?
Larry
Yes, and it's cheap and available. The quick test for open/closed cell is to hold it compressed to your mouth and blow through it.
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I have a few questions:
I have one suggestion for foam (carpet pad) anyone else have a favorite i might consider?
Also, Should there be any dampening material (tiles) or foam applied to the front baffle?
TIA,
Larry
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+1 for carpet padding. If you look you'll find there are different grades of padding -- the better stuff is more dense and rigid. Around here the big box stores have remnants you can pick up for next to nothing.
I've never done treated the front baffle. By the time you're done placing damping material on the other surfaces, there never seemed like enough surface to worry about. But good question and I'm interested in what others have to say.
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I'm pretty sure Danny has said it is not required on the front baffle. There is very little left to treat in any event...
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I have been trying to decide what to use for foam inside my boxes. I have checked everywhere in my area, and can't find anything I think is suitable. I checked out the carpet foam, but the stuff I found around here is pure crap. It crumbles in my hand. I can't blow through it, probably because it has a skin on one side. The current available carpet pad is lousy stuff. Maybe a better carpet outlet has better stuff that you guys have had success with, but there isn't one in my area.
Do you guys have any more suggestions that are tried and true? Some fiberglass was being tossed at work, so I grabbed it. It is about 2-1/2" thick fully fluffed, and is layered so it can be easily be pulled apart to any thickness.
Would this fiberglass be as good as foam if I strip it to about 1" and glue it in?
(http://i.imgur.com/SDlyal.jpg)
Or should I just get some eggcrate speaker foam from Parts Express.
http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_standard/260-516_s.jpg
Larry
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Actually fiberglass would work better than foam, it is just not easy to work with. As for the exact amount to use, I would recommend 80% full of fiberglass. If the lower end is too much then remove until you find a balance you like. Just make sure the port is unobstructed.
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Another product that works very well is Acousta - Stuf that is available from Parts Express in 1 lb bags.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-317
I have used it before. Seems to provide deeper, tighter bass and cleaner midrange performance.
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That fiberglass works fine. I use it all the time.
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That fiberglass works fine. I use it all the time.
Ok Danny.... Thanks for that info, but knowing the speakers I am building (X-LS Encore), how much FG would you suggest I use. Would I use the same thickness as if I was using foam or No-Rez? or does it require more? I am itchin to get itchy :D
Thanks,
Larry
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Ok Danny.... Thanks for that info, but knowing the speakers I am building (X-LS Encore), how much FG would you suggest I use. Would I use the same thickness as if I was using foam or No-Rez? or does it require more? I am itchin to get itchy :D
Thanks,
Larry
You want to cover each wall and use a light fill of it behind the woofer (not packed in). And leave a clear air path to the port.
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I got my fiberglass insulation installed. I used my tried and true 3M 77 spray adhesive to stick it to the walls. I have been spending way too much time trying to find laminate to use for my finish. It is just non existent locally, especially with a nice woodgrain look. If I want to do a 100 mile RT, I could get a full sheet that I don't need.
Peter has offered to get me what I need and send it to me (thanks for the offer Peter), but for my first build, I am just going to do the paint thing. I fully realize painting will be much more difficult than the laminate, but it's going to allow me to keep moving forward. Maybe the next build (we all know there WILL be a "next build") I will try laminate.
Another reason for the paint method is I really like the look of rounded edges, and that would be quite difficult with laminate.
So.... I temporarily installed my front baffle so I could square all edges with the router. I then did the round over
on all edges. I had considered many different ways to do this, but finally decided to round ALL edges. I am pleased with the look so far!
(http://i.imgur.com/TD2yPl.jpg)
I ground the heads smaller on some wood screws so my roundover router bit wouldn't hit the screw head. These screws will be removed after final gluing.
(http://i.imgur.com/xNKpvl.jpg)
All edges rounded:
(http://i.imgur.com/u1SPyl.jpg)
Larry...
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I have a couple of questions:
Has anyone ever used epoxy to seal MDF before painting? I use epoxy a lot, and it would seem that it would work good for sealing the MDF, especially the ends. Any thoughts?
I am ready to add the wires to the crossovers. Should I assume the red wire was intended to be positive and the white negative? Also, The drivers are not marked +/- Is the larger (wider) tab the + side that will receive the red wire?
Any help/ideas are appreciated....
Thanks,
Larry
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Hi Larry
I know you origanlly planning on using laminate... now you're planning on painting. For a look that is a cross between the 2, spray on truck bed liner turns ouot pretty good. I used it on my sub enclosure and I quite like it. Super durablew too !! There are a couple pics in my gallery of it.
Counter- sinking thosse screws a bit might be easier to make room for your roundover next time. I contersink mine and just leave them in after final glue up.
Enjoying floolowing your build progress , good job :thumb:
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I have a couple of questions:
Has anyone ever used epoxy to seal MDF before painting? I use epoxy a lot, and it would seem that it would work good for sealing the MDF, especially the ends. Any thoughts?
I am ready to add the wires to the crossovers. Should I assume the red wire was intended to be positive and the white negative? Also, The drivers are not marked +/- Is the larger (wider) tab the + side that will receive the red wire?
Any help/ideas are appreciated....
Thanks,
Larry
Epoxy would be a great sealer if your are used to using it. The red wires are usually used as positive, and the broader tabs are usually the positive tabs on a speaker. Captainhemo recommended truck liner, and it does look pretty good. Some of the "hammered" look rattle can paints can be attractive as well.
Scott
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Epoxy would be a great sealer if your are used to using it. The red wires are usually used as positive, and the broader tabs are usually the positive tabs on a speaker. Captainhemo recommended truck liner, and it does look pretty good. Some of the "hammered" look rattle can paints can be attractive as well.
Scott
Scott,
I may give the epoxy a try, I happen to have several gallons. I may try thinning it for max penetration, even though that's normally a bad idea as it reduces strength.
I hope your theory is correct as I have already soldered the wires on the boards using red as plus. Maybe Danny can confirm the broader tabs are indeed + on these drivers?
My biggest concern with painting is the butt joints showing through the paint. :cry:
Larry
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Hi Larry
I know you origanlly planning on using laminate... now you're planning on painting. For a look that is a cross between the 2, spray on truck bed liner turns ouot pretty good. I used it on my sub enclosure and I quite like it. Super durablew too !! There are a couple pics in my gallery of it.
Counter- sinking thosse screws a bit might be easier to make room for your roundover next time. I contersink mine and just leave them in after final glue up.
Enjoying floolowing your build progress , good job :thumb:
I still think laminate is by far the easiest way to build, but when I do this again, I will have the laminate long before I need it. Not sure how far I will go with the finish quality with these cabinets.
I have used rattle can stone look spray to to hide sins on MDF for speaker stands, and painting them semi flat black which turned out pretty nice, but I think I want something a little better this time. I may change my mind after the first screw-up :lol:
Actually I did countersink the screws along with narrowing their heads on the first cabinet, but I did the roundover with the router on the sides/top/bottom instead of the router flat on the front baffle. I thought the woofer hole was a little close to the edge, and I might have a hard time keeping it flat (dipping into the woofer hole). However, in doing so, the bearing on the roundover bit dropped into the countersink hole, creating a divot in the roundover cut on the baffle at each hole. I will have to fix this divot. :duh:
The second cabinet, I just counterbored the depth of the head to prevent this from happening again. I did space the screws far enough in so the roundover wouldn't hit the screw head.
I enjoy watching your build too!
Larry
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My biggest concern with painting is the butt joints showing through the paint. :cry:
Larry
What about going over the seams with "bondo" or some other body filler ?
-jay
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What about going over the seams with "bondo" or some other body filler ?
-jay
Actually I tried some of these methods today as an experiment on my cabinets.
I used the bondo on some low spots, and tried automotive spot putty as well. The problem is bondo is for filling shallow dips, and spot putty is for filling pin holes. If used on a smooth flat surface like the butt joint that have been made perfectly level with the router, bondo or spot putty will be sanded completely off.
They both have a use on MDF cabinets, but IMO not for sealing the seam. I am hoping epoxy, especially thinned will help seal the joint. I think what is actually happening at the butt joint is expansion/contraction because of already absorbed moisture in the MDF.
I wonder if baking the cabinets in the oven at something like 150F would drive out the moisture without destroying the glue, and stabilize the MDF before painting? :scratch:
Larry..
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Scott,
I may give the epoxy a try, I happen to have several gallons. I may try thinning it for max penetration, even though that's normally a bad idea as it reduces strength.
I hope your theory is correct as I have already soldered the wires on the boards using red as plus. Maybe Danny can confirm the broader tabs are indeed + on these drivers?
My biggest concern with painting is the butt joints showing through the paint. :cry:
Larry
I think epoxy would be ok as long as you know your finish paint will adhere to it. I would be surprised if the butt joint ever becomes totally invisible. Over time variations in humidity levels will make the mdf expand differently on the length and thickness. The higher the gloss on the finish and the more it will show.
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I would be surprised if the butt joint ever becomes totally invisible. Over time variations in humidity levels will make the mdf expand differently on the length and thickness. The higher the gloss on the finish and the more it will show.
That's why I think I'll stay with the spray on truck bed liner. It's more like a satin black and it's not perfectly flat. When I did my sub box, I used 2 coats of primer first (tinted black) . So far, it's hiddent the seams very well.
-jay
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why not cover the exposed ends of the cabinet in thin 1/8 mdf (masonite?).
The exposed edge from the masonite is easy to sand smooth..
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Gotta throw my two cents in, here. I used Duratex on some X-LS & a sub for my son and it worked great. Got it from a place in Ft Lauderdale. (www.acrytech.com) It is roller grade, satin finish, and you can vary the height of the "finish" to get smooth or as rough as you want it. I used Lowe's bedliner on a set of mdf boxes and it was very rough to the touch ( but bullet proof). This Duratex is a great product, and durable as well. The speakers will look like they are ready for road tour. WAF might be a little low, but the finish is super tough. check it out.
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Duratex actually has a sound damping coating for the interior of the cabinet http://store.acrytech.com/Speaker-Cabinet-Coating-Acoust-X-Sound-Damping-Coating.html (http://store.acrytech.com/Speaker-Cabinet-Coating-Acoust-X-Sound-Damping-Coating.html). I know, it ain't No Rez but a couple of coats and a dipple finish must get you part way there ( maybe even a few coats over vinyl tile?)
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Well,
I did a lot of research on several forums trying to see how everyone else seals MDF. This product (MDF) is used for many many uses besides speakers.
Here is some of what I have found:
- MDF absorbs moisture :duh:
- Absorbing moisture/drying cycle causes seams to show
- sealing both the inside and outside is required to slow moisture absorption in speaker cabinets
- Wood glue allows movement at the seams
- Epoxy glue will help prevent the seam movement
- As I had thought, pre warming the MDF prior to any sealing will reduce absorbed moisture
- Epoxy seals MDF very well, plus it hardens it
I found several posts on speaker building sites as well as Pro-construction builder forums about these same issues we encounter using MDF for speakers and stands. The overwhelming consensus is Epoxy glue is better than wood glue for panel assembly. Also, all surfaces inside and out should be sealed, epoxy is the best sealer. This is after all possible moisture is driven out of the MDF.
I know everyone has there own method of building, and have developed what you feel is the tried and true "best" method. However, the internet is a great resource for information, but we all know "it's worth exactly what we pay for it" :lol: I have a lot of experience with Epoxy, and related fillers, so I will be the tester for the use of epoxy, and will report my finding.
Larry
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Good stuff Larry, looking forward to hearing how things go.
Too bad you didn't come across this info earlier, you could have done the insdide before gluing in the vinyl and insulation.
With no compressor or spray gun, coating with expoxy will be out of the question for me.. I'm wondering how strong the truck bed liner is, wonder if it helps eliminate movement in the seams. No seams are showing through so far on my sub.
Anyway, keep us posted
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Good stuff Larry, looking forward to hearing how things go.
Too bad you didn't come across this info earlier, you could have done the insdide before gluing in the vinyl and insulation.
With no compressor or spray gun, coating with expoxy will be out of the question for me.. I'm wondering how strong the truck bed liner is, wonder if it helps eliminate movement in the seams. No seams are showing through so far on my sub.
Anyway, keep us posted
There's a lot of things I could have done differently, and at the end of my build I will document them all so those that follow may have an easier time (pay it forward). Also, my next build will go smoother. I do think the application of contact cement is a good sealer along with the floor tiles. I had also caulked all the seams after installing the tiles.
Larry
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- MDF absorbs moisture :duh:
- Absorbing moisture/drying cycle causes seams to show
- sealing both the inside and outside is required to slow moisture absorption in speaker cabinets
- Wood glue allows movement at the seams
- Epoxy glue will help prevent the seam movement
- As I had thought, pre warming the MDF prior to any sealing will reduce absorbed moisture
- Epoxy seals MDF very well, plus it hardens it
Lacro, I'd agree with most all that but it needs some clarification. All wood and wood products absorb and dissipate moisture, MDF has no particular penchant for attracting (or releasing) moisture. We're not talking about moisture in liquid form but rather vapor, which most would refer to as humidty...and there's always some humidty in the environments we live in...it's everwhere in varying levels. Wood movement will be affected by both humidity and temperature.
Stopping the give and take of moisture is to fly in the face good ol' Mother Nature and she always wins in the end. The best we can reasonably hope for is to slow the give and take down some.
As to glues, most wood glues form what is called a flexible glue line, giving it the alility to move with the wood it's sticking together. Most epoxies have a much more ridgid glue line. Neither is necessarily better, but rather which one works for the intended application. In the case of speaker boxes, either will work in my experience, so it depends on what you're doing and the desired results.
I'm not sure the sealing of cabinet interiors has any real-world effect on plywood or MDF speaker cabinets, but generally its effects are well known in the woodwoking world...often referred to as "balancing" a panel for the reasons you describe.
Ideally you want any wooden structure to be constructed in the humidty and temperature environment it will ultimately live in. If you purposely dry it further it will simply equalize itself to the existing conditions after the heat is removed, and movement will occur in greater amounts. It may take some time, but once again Mother Nature will prevail in the long haul.
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If you purposely dry it further it will simply equalize itself to the existing conditions after the heat is removed, and movement will occur in greater amounts. It may take some time, but once again Mother Nature will prevail in the long haul.
This is a very good point. I would also hesitate to seal the inside - the inside surface of the wood/mdf will allow the material to acclimatize gradually to changing humidity and temperatures (throughout the seasons, year after year).
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Another option to consider for a textured painted surface is a hammered finish paint. It falls in the middle between a standard smooth surface, and the more highly textured bed liner finish. Hammerite has been around for years, and now companies like Rustoleum make a similar product that is available in big box srores. You can build up a finish as thick as you need to help hide the seams.
I use this for painted surfaces exposed to lots of use since it is very durable and wears like iron. I also used it on a pair of x-ls cabinets earlier this year that needed extra protection. The picture below isn't great, but will give you an idea what it looks like and if this might work for you.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61464)
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Cody, that looks real good.
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Cody, that does look good. I have used it on speaker stands, but it ran on vertical surfaces, so I painted it black which looked pretty good, but no hammered look.
Larry
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Lacro, I'd agree with most all that but it needs some clarification. All wood and wood products absorb and dissipate moisture, MDF has no particular penchant for attracting (or releasing) moisture. We're not talking about moisture in liquid form but rather vapor, which most would refer to as humidty...and there's always some humidty in the environments we live in...it's everwhere in varying levels. Wood movement will be affected by both humidity and temperature.
Stopping the give and take of moisture is to fly in the face good ol' Mother Nature and she always wins in the end. The best we can reasonably hope for is to slow the give and take down some.
As to glues, most wood glues form what is called a flexible glue line, giving it the alility to move with the wood it's sticking together. Most epoxies have a much more ridgid glue line. Neither is necessarily better, but rather which one works for the intended application. In the case of speaker boxes, either will work in my experience, so it depends on what you're doing and the desired results.
I'm not sure the sealing of cabinet interiors has any real-world effect on plywood or MDF speaker cabinets, but generally its effects are well known in the woodwoking world...often referred to as "balancing" a panel for the reasons you describe.
Ideally you want any wooden structure to be constructed in the humidty and temperature environment it will ultimately live in. If you purposely dry it further it will simply equalize itself to the existing conditions after the heat is removed, and movement will occur in greater amounts. It may take some time, but once again Mother Nature will prevail in the long haul.
A better approach to this would be to design the speaker with fewer butt joints. A more challenging build: 45s on top and fronts. Back and bottoms get butt joints...
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Lacro, I'd agree with most all that but it needs some clarification. All wood and wood products absorb and dissipate moisture, MDF has no particular penchant for attracting (or releasing) moisture. We're not talking about moisture in liquid form but rather vapor, which most would refer to as humidty...and there's always some humidty in the environments we live in...it's everwhere in varying levels. Wood movement will be affected by both humidity and temperature.
Peter, From my experience, MDF does have a penchant for attracting moisture. The MDF I am using for my speakers was stored in a dry garage off the floor together with some plywood and OSB. The MDF from the bottom of the sheets up about 1 foot were swollen to almost 7/8" IMO/ MDF absorbs moisture, swells and does not go back to its original thickness when it dissipates the moisture. The other sheet goods did not exhibit this swelling. MDF is pulverized wood with binders that is compressed to sheet form. It does not have the cellular structure of wood which absorbs and dissipates moisture freely, allowing the wood to revert back to its original dimension. MDF keeps its swollen state. IMO this is why butt seams show through paint, and don't shrink back like wood. This probably has a lot to do with where I live. I see high heat/humidity in the summer, and bone dry humidity in winter with lots of temperature extremes[/quote]
Stopping the give and take of moisture is to fly in the face good ol' Mother Nature and she always wins in the end. The best we can reasonably hope for is to slow the give and take down some.
I agree, but that's exactly what boat builders are trying to achieve, total encapsulation of the wood so there is no moisture give and take at all. It's worked very well for me.
As to glues, most wood glues form what is called a flexible glue line, giving it the alility to move with the wood it's sticking together. Most epoxies have a much more ridgid glue line. Neither is necessarily better, but rather which one works for the intended application. In the case of speaker boxes, either will work in my experience, so it depends on what you're doing and the desired results.
Again, I agree with the flexible glue line which for furniture is an attribute. Most furniture is finished in lacquer, which breaths somewhat, and the inside is left unfinished. The give and take of moisture
you mention is allowed, and a flexible glue joint is important. As you point out, epoxy used as a glue is a rigid glue line, and is probably not a good choice for wood furniture. However, in my experience, MDF absorbs moisture and swells the joint. A rigid glue line should help keep a butt joint tight as would mechanical fasteners (i.e. screws, staples) or biscuits.
I'm not sure the sealing of cabinet interiors has any real-world effect on plywood or MDF speaker cabinets, but generally its effects are well known in the woodwoking world...often referred to as "balancing" a panel for the reasons you describe.
I am not sure either, but from my boat build experience, total epoxy encapsulation does completely seal out all give and take of moisture on wood, creating a truly water proof structure, thus fooling mother nature. However, nothing is forever, and mother nature will always prevail in the end. We can just hope we outlive the inevitable. Also, I have no idea if epoxy will work as well in MDF which absorbs any liquid like a sponge. From the info I have garnered on speaker building forums, it will help a lot.
Ideally you want any wooden structure to be constructed in the humidty and temperature environment it will ultimately live in. If you purposely dry it further it will simply equalize itself to the existing conditions after the heat is removed, and movement will occur in greater amounts. It may take some time, but once again Mother Nature will prevail in the long haul.
If we were talking about wood, I would agree, but in my environment, MDF is not very stable, and sucks humidity like it's a sponge . I think driving out all possible moisture before total encapsulation is prudent. This suggestion was found on speaker building forums so I really don't know whether it will be a benefit or not, but it makes sense if one is completely sealing all surfaces.
Peter... This is just a discussion about how to prevent butt seams showing on painted speaker cabinets. I value your opinion, and I know you are a superb wood worker. I welcome all opinions and ideas in my build thread. I am hear to learn, and appreciate all suggestions. I don't know what will work best for my situation, but I don't have a lot invested so I will try my theory and let everyone know the results.
Thanks for your input, rebuttals are welcome.
Larry
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A better approach to this would be to design the speaker with fewer butt joints. A more challenging build: 45s on top and fronts. Back and bottoms get butt joints...
I agree it would probably solve the joint show through,I also agree with the "more challenging build" :lol: 45 miters on a box are for better wood workers than me!
Larry
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I wonder if nusing small "L' brackets on the inside of the cabinet before the lining went in would help to reduce the joint show through" ? Sounds like we need to be painting with Linux, you know that stuff they use to bomb proof walls etc !!
I wonder if we shouldn't be looking at different materials for construction. The additional cost may be offset by the time/money spent trying to totally seal a cabinets panels ?
-jay
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Some progress:
Tinning the cross-over leads with solder
(http://i.imgur.com/QZsNCl.jpg)
The first ones soldered to a cross-over
(http://i.imgur.com/Btvr5l.jpg)
Cross-over with all leads soldered (top)
(http://i.imgur.com/g1IBMl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/g1IBM)
Bottom
(http://i.imgur.com/0sDUyl.jpg)
Long board sanding to level all sides
(http://i.imgur.com/KLbexl.jpg)
Low spots marked for filling
(http://i.imgur.com/hCIxHl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/EJ1VZl.jpg)
Baffles glued on with thickened epoxy
(http://i.imgur.com/tN2bhl.jpg)
Larry
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those boxes are lookin good. may I say, about crossover boards; get the sonicaps and mills resistors. now is the time. they will take your speakers up a couple of notches. or at least make your x-over boards very accessible because you will get the urge later. just sayin. I for one am anxious to see the final poduct here.
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By and Large Larry,I think we are on the same page, with the exception of the mdf moisture attraction. It seems to me that what you are describing about your garage is about wicking from the concrete floor.
Concrete will migrate moisture more than most people realize. Wanna check it? Tape a piece of plastic on the floor for a few days and if it accumulates condensation you'll know for sure.
If it were humidity, the whole panel would swell equally.
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By and Large Larry,I think we are on the same page, with the exception of the mdf moisture attraction. It seems to me that what you are describing about your garage is about wicking from the concrete floor.
Concrete will migrate moisture more than most people realize. Wanna check it? Tape a piece of plastic on the floor for a few days and if it accumulates condensation you'll know for sure.
If it were humidity, the whole panel would swell equally.
Peter,
Your analysis is correct, but in my case, the MDF along with plywood, and OSB were all stored about 8" above the concrete floor, not on the floor. It was stored on shelf brackets with a 2 x4 attached. The lower half of the garage certainly sees cooler, moister air than the upper half. I have some steel lying on the floor and it is rusted for sure, but that is why I stored these sheet goods above the floor. All I am saying is the swelling I witnessed was on the MDF , and not on the other sheet goods, but they do have water resistant glues where I don't believe MDF is water resistant at all.
I am not sure I am on the right track at all. I am just having fun trying different things. I did a lot of sanding, and put the first coat of epoxy on my cabinets today. Only time will tell if it was worth it. I do appreciate your input/opinions, and if you see me doing something dumb, please let me know.
Larry
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those boxes are lookin good. may I say, about crossover boards; get the sonicaps and mills resistors. now is the time. they will take your speakers up a couple of notches. or at least make your x-over boards very accessible because you will get the urge later. just sayin. I for one am anxious to see the final poduct here.
Thanks for your suggestion. I am aware of the attributes of the upgrades available for the crossovers, but for my modest system, the inclusion of the upgrades would have almost doubled the cost of the kit, if I included the Norez. I am sure all the upgrades are worth the extra $ but I am new at this, and just getting this kit together, and seeing what it sounds like before moving to the next level is my current goal. I see this as just the beginning...
Larry
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I did some more filling and sanding
(http://i.imgur.com/X3qLZl.jpg)
Also, I changed my roundever to a 1/2" radius. I like it!
(http://i.imgur.com/QPYvnl.jpg)
Mixed some epoxy, and thinned it 5% with Lacquer thinner
(http://i.imgur.com/Ticull.jpg)
Rolled on this first coat with foam roller, and tipped it with a foam brush
(http://i.imgur.com/hJ8CRl.jpg)
Came out pretty good
(http://i.imgur.com/fCJ6jl.jpg)
Took a much deserved break with a couple of brews while listening to Pandora streaming to my netbook, connected to my homemade boombox. Chilled out while watching epoxy dry on the boxes.. "Life is good"
(http://i.imgur.com/PZy7ll.jpg)
Larry
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I did some more filling and sanding
Been filling and sanding a good part of the day myself. Man, too many screw holes
Also, I changed my roundever to a 1/2" radius. I like it!
Looks good Larry
Took a much deserved break with a couple of brews while listening to Pandora streaming to my netbook, connected to my homemade boombox. Chilled out while watching epoxy dry on the boxes.. "Life is good"
Haha, a few brews can make even the simplest things seem amusing :lol:
Looking real good Larry, keep it up !!
-jay
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Good job Larry on finishing your speaker cabinets! Using Epoxy to seal the porous MDF material is a good idea. They look very nice. Do you plan to leave them with just the Epoxy finish or do you plan to spray paint them with like a black lacquer finish?
Ron
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Been filling and sanding a good part of the day myself. Man, too many screw holes
Looks good Larry
Haha, a few brews can make even the simplest things seem amusing :lol:
Looking real good Larry, keep it up !!
-jay
Jay.. Only those that have sanded MDF know how much fun we are having :lol:
Screw holes can be a pain to fill, it may take two rounds to fill them as there always seems to be some divots after the first filling. I removed the screws on my baffle after the epoxy set, and one of them tore the MDF on the way out. I had to inject some epoxy into the slit, and clamp it :( I hope it doesn't show when all is done.
I did a pretty big screw-up that took half a day to fix. I was going to level my low spots with epoxy filled with micro balloons which are hollow spheres that allow for easier sanding/fairing, similar to using bondo. However, when I mixed my epoxy in my basement, I didn't turn on all the lights. I picked the wrong jar, thinking I had the micro balloons, but I actually picked graphite powder which I use to color epoxy black, in very small amounts.
I slathered the mix all over the seams and low spots not realizing my mistake till I was done :duh: Soo.... most of yesterday was spent sanding off the graphite which left a black powder all over me. I board sanded most of it, and I actually resorted to my ROS sander which I had vowed not to use at all on these boxes :nono:
I got most of it off except the screw holes on the baffles which is why they are black :cry:
Larry
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Good job Larry on finishing your speaker cabinets! Using Epoxy to seal the porous MDF material is a good idea. They look very nice. Do you plan to leave them with just the Epoxy finish or do you plan to spray paint them with like a black lacquer finish?
Ron
Thanks Ron... I am doing many things different than the norm such as rounding over all edges instead of only a few. I want a different look. I think I could have even done a 3/4" roundover.
The epoxy is a sealer only, and the boxes will be painted. I will be doing 1-2 more rounds of epoxy with a goal of sealing/burying all seams. I may even use a narrow strip of light weight fiberglass (.75-1 oz.) on all seams, but that's getting carried away for sure.
I have to be careful what I use for final finish. Lacquer doesn't play nice over epoxy as lacquer thinner dissolves epoxy. There is probably a transition primer that would work.
I really like marine enamels over epoxy. The one I use can be brushed, and looks like it's sprayed on. I do like the piano black look, but I don't know if I want to do that much work :lol:
I have been kicking around the idea of painting the boxes a bright color such as red, yellow, or blue with black speaker stands?? Any thoughts are welcome...
Something I could have tried, and I will try on my stands which are MDF as well is to stain the MDF with black water or alcohol based Analine dye or even just India ink. I will then seal the MDF with epoxy tinted with graphite (2-3) coats, and finish with just a clear such as automotive clearcoat or varnish. The dye/india ink would be the colored basecoat. The tinted epoxy will seal and bury the seams. The clearcoat or even varnish will seal, protect, and give the final sheen I desire. Sound like a plan??
I am open to suggestions................
Larry
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I have seen and like stained mdf...
On you painting the speakers a bright color all I can say is: you must be single. :green:
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Larry,
I would think that a marine enamel over the epoxy sealer would provide a very hard and durable finish. You are correct that lacquer thinner
wouldn't do well on the epoxy base sealer. Recently read that to use a colored lacquered paint on MDF requires several base coats of clear lacquer sealer first and lightly sanding between coats. Then spray on several coats of colored lacquer, also lightly sanding between coats ( 400 grit or finer) and then final finish with a clear lacquer top coat. I built some speakers several years ago that were finished in piano black by a professional automotive paint shop. The paint was a two part urethane based paint made by Dupont. I think Ruben ( outofthewoods) uses a similar type paint on the speakers he builds. The speakers looked really nice, but the paint job was very expensive due to the preparation labor and the high cost of the paint itself. Presently trying to complete a speaker building project myself,and trying to decide method to seal and paint. Presently leaning toward the colored lacquer ( satin black) finish as the best alternative.
Ron
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Jay.. Only those that have sanded MDF know how much fun we are having :lol:
Screw holes can be a pain to fill, it may take two rounds to fill them as there always seems to be some divots after the first filling. I removed the screws on my baffle after the epoxy set, and one of them tore the MDF on the way out. I had to inject some epoxy into the slit, and clamp it :( I hope it doesn't show when all is done.
I did a pretty big screw-up that took half a day to fix. I was going to level my low spots with epoxy filled with micro balloons which are hollow spheres that allow for easier sanding/fairing, similar to using bondo. However, when I mixed my epoxy in my basement, I didn't turn on all the lights. I picked the wrong jar, thinking I had the micro balloons, but I actually picked graphite powder which I use to color epoxy black, in very small amounts.
I slathered the mix all over the seams and low spots not realizing my mistake till I was done :duh: Soo.... most of yesterday was spent sanding off the graphite which left a black powder all over me. I board sanded most of it, and I actually resorted to my ROS sander which I had vowed not to use at all on these boxes :nono:
I got most of it off except the screw holes on the baffles which is why they are black :cry:
Larry
Ouch....I bet that stuff isn't easy to sand. It would appear that you really did earn those brews :)
After seeing all this, I'm feeling "guilty" as if I'm shortcutting by only planning to do a couple coats of primer then the TBL.
-jay
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I have seen and like stained mdf...
On you painting the speakers a bright color all I can say is: you must be single. :green:
My idea for the stain is to use it as the main color similar to base coat clear coat on cars.
Actually I am not single. I am just married to the greatest woman ever!!! These speakers are for my
"man cave" actually just a spare, smallish bedroom. She likes the idea of red speakers, but in the end I will probably chicken out, and go with black.
Larry
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Ouch....I bet that stuff isn't easy to sand. It would appear that you really did earn those brews :)
After seeing all this, I'm feeling "guilty" as if I'm shortcutting by only planning to do a couple coats of primer then the TBL.
-jay
I don't think your cheating at all. I like what your using for the finish, and if mine don't come out acceptable, I may follow your lead :lol:
L
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Larry,
I would think that a marine enamel over the epoxy sealer would provide a very hard and durable finish. You are correct that lacquer thinner
wouldn't do well on the epoxy base sealer. Recently read that to use a colored lacquered paint on MDF requires several base coats of clear lacquer sealer first and lightly sanding between coats. Then spray on several coats of colored lacquer, also lightly sanding between coats ( 400 grit or finer) and then final finish with a clear lacquer top coat. I built some speakers several years ago that were finished in piano black by a professional automotive paint shop. The paint was a two part urethane based paint made by Dupont. I think Ruben ( outofthewoods) uses a similar type paint on the speakers he builds. The speakers looked really nice, but the paint job was very expensive due to the preparation labor and the high cost of the paint itself. Presently trying to complete a speaker building project myself,and trying to decide method to seal and paint. Presently leaning toward the colored lacquer ( satin black) finish as the best alternative.
Ron
Ron,
Not sure what method I will use in the end, but let me say, epoxy really soaks into the MDF, especially when thinned 5%. I am about to add another round of epoxy (not thinned) I sanded lightly. All the sanding dust was white, indicating that I am sanding epoxy, and not MDF.
The epoxy has hardened the MDF something like comparing soft wood to hardwood. It's really hard now. Sanding out all the orange peal effect caused by using a roller/tip method requires more coats of epoxy till I get to the point I can sand just the epoxy and leave no craters, then it's ready for paint.
The need to seal the MDF whether for paint or Lacquer is accomplished by multiple coats of something. Some use just watered down wood glue. I am not sure what's best, but I am using what I know and what I have available.
When it comes to final furniture grade color finish, I am in the dark :scratch:. My experience is on wood finished bright, doing multiple brushed coats of marine varnish, wet sanded between each (6-12 coats)
Larry
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Larry,
Your X-LS Encores painted red would be different. I think they would look really cool, especially for your " man cave". One method I tried several years ago was to paint my bare MDF speaker cabinets with Krylon spray paint. They turned out surprisingly nice. Started out with multiple coats of Krylon dark gray primer, lightly sanding with 400 grit sandpaper between coats. Then I applied multiple coats of Krylon Satin black spray paint also sanding with 400 grit sandpaper between coats. Finished off with Krylon Satin clear coat. Need to use a tack cloth each time you sand. This method works well with bare MDF. May not work well with the Epoxy base coat.
Ron
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Got my first coat of epoxy sanded. The white sanding dust is epoxy, not MDF
(http://i.imgur.com/ve8qPl.jpg)
The second coat of epoxy (not thinned) goes on smoothly, and is self leveling. It hides sanding scratches, and brush strokes. Each coat builds like several coats of paint would.
(http://i.imgur.com/WI81Al.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/FxAafl.jpg)
The boxes are standing off the table on their own 4 feet :wink: I installed nut inserts (with epoxy) into the bottoms. I want to later attach the speakers to the stands, but for now I am using 1/4-20 elevator bolts for temporary feet so it is possible to epoxy or paint the bottom, insert the bolts, and flip it over onto the feet for doing the other panels.
Larry
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I wished I had tried the India ink on the MDF before the epoxy. I bet that would work good. All I would then need would be some clearcoat over the epoxy.
I am going to try it on my speaker stands...
Larry
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A big time lurker here..... I am absolutely amazed at how nice those look. :o If you don't mind me asking, what brand of epoxy do you use?
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A big time lurker here..... I am absolutely amazed at how nice those look. :o If you don't mind me asking, what brand of epoxy do you use?
I have had good luck with Raka. I use the 127 resin with the 350 non blush hardener. It's fairly thin, wets out glass easily, has good pot life, and it doesn't blush. Also, it's fairly inexpensive. I usually buy the 3 gal. kit. Including shipping that equals about $.50 an ounce. I have 7 ounces on these boxes so far.
http://store.raka.com/epoxy.aspx
Larry
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Thank you for the info. I might try to use that on my future projects.
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Man, those are looking saaaaweeet. :thumb:
Total pro look job.
Now I'm getting inspired for another build. Wish I knew how to use all those tools.... :?
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Man, those are looking saaaaweeet. :thumb:
Total pro look job.
Now I'm getting inspired for another build. Wish I knew how to use all those tools.... :?
Michael,
I am not sure your responding to the right thread? I am just an average hacker trying to build a pair of speakers. The epoxy finish is nothing more than a clear; thick primer over raw MDF. These boxes will eventually be painted. I learned a long time ago, "finish is everything" No matter how good something looks at different stages, the final finish is all that is actually seen by others. If you want true building/finish inspiration, look at Peter J's work :thumb:
Larry
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I started on my stands, and began sanding the main boxes...
Flat Feet :lol: for standing box off the table for painting.
(http://i.imgur.com/8mAHSl.jpg)
Sanding 2nd coat of epoxy:
(http://i.imgur.com/ekcWxl.jpg)
One box sanded, other waiting:
(http://i.imgur.com/geaiQl.jpg)
Sand trap glued in:
(http://i.imgur.com/TxhTjl.jpg)
Pipe for threaded rod:
(http://i.imgur.com/EwF13l.jpg)
Staining MDF with India Ink:
(http://i.imgur.com/KTxAnl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/LEzKhl.jpg)
1/2" Roundover:
(http://i.imgur.com/KZXHel.jpg)
Ink works good as stain on MDF:
(http://i.imgur.com/yyVaYl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/cECgul.jpg)
Larry
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Nice looking stands. :thumb:
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Looking really good Larry. Neat to try something different with the India Ink.
Have you decied how you are finishing the cabinets yet ?
-jay
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Looking really good Larry. Neat to try something different with the India Ink.
Have you decied how you are finishing the cabinets yet ?
-jay
Jay,
The India ink really covers the MDF amazingly well. The little 1.5 oz. bottle covered all the MDF for the stands. I picked up another bottle to give it one more go, mainly to see if it looks any different, not because the first coated didn't cover well. AC Moore has coupon sales almost every week, and I got both bottles at 40 & 50% off, about $2.50 a bottle so if it don't work well, I'm not out much.
I am trying some epoxy pigmented with graphite powder plus a little black epoxy pigment on some pieces of the stand to see how it comes out. I would like to try this method on the speaker boxes. If I can get a good black uniform color on the boxes, I may be able to just finish with a clear coat of some sort.
This is what I will be doing on the stands for sure, but I was able to use the India ink on them first, so my chances are better with the stands using this method.
In any case the speakers and stands will be BLACK (although I still like my idea of red!). Even if things don't work out with my experiment, I can still paint everything black, red, whatever :icon_lol:
I am running out of warm enough weather (here in late Sept.) to be able to try spray painting, either rattle can or with my little touch-up gun and my low CFM compressor. I did have good luck with it on my "Boom Box" which I covered with 6 coats of marine varnish, 5 brushed, and the last one sprayed with the touch-up gun. It came our quite good. If the weather won't cooperate, I may have to resort to the Roll & Tip paint method, and maybe finish with a wet sanding regiment up to 1500-2000 grit and finish with buffing, but I want to avoid this if I can.
Larry
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Funny you mention the red..... I'm thinking of doing a set of X LS for my niece's room. If I do them, theu'll have to be finished in red.
I'm anxious to see how your finish on the speakers turns out, sounds interesting !!
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I put 2 coats of India ink on all the stand parts, and experimented with epoxy with graphite powder, and black epoxy colorant. The epoxy was thinned slightly with lacquer thinner for deep penetration.
After light sanding the epoxy/graphite coating gets really slippery :lol:, and turns a gunmetal gray.
I applied a second coat of epoxy, but this time I only used the black colorant. I am trying to see if I can get a grayish tint to the black similar to vintage Paradigm speakers. I think they referred to it as "Black Ash"
The goal here is to come up with a color I like by tinting the epoxy, and finishing with a clear coat of some type, maybe automotive clearcoat. The color will be buried in the epoxy, and the clearcoat will be the sheen I desire plus protect the epoxy from UV which is a must.
I am trying this on the stands first. If it works I will try it on the speakers. If it doesn't work out the way I want, I can just paint everything. Nothing is lost but time, as the epoxy will help seal the seams from showing, and fill any divots or gaps. Plus, coloring the MDF with India ink and tinting the epoxy will help prevent any future dings that may happen from showing the raw MDF.
The speaker stand top panel on the left has the epoxy/graphite/black colorant on it. The panel on the right has just India ink applied. The camera flash makes the gray color much more pronounced than it really is. The orange peel effect visible in the first coat of epoxy (thinned) will get buried in subsequent coats (not thinned).
(http://i.imgur.com/Xptfml.jpg)
The first seal coat of thinned epoxy applied to the stands. This coat is tinted with just the epoxy black colorant, no graphite. Note how the edges suck the epoxy in more than the flat surfaces.
(http://i.imgur.com/vszDul.jpg)
I applied the thinned/tinted black epoxy to all the stand parts. The panel on the left which is getting the second coat of epoxy is the only one with the graphite in the first coat. Again the flash is making it look different than it does in normal light. The grayish tint is showing through this panel. The others don't have the graphite, and only have one coat of epoxy.
(http://i.imgur.com/FFYBMl.jpg)
Larry..
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I put on the second coat of tinted epoxy on the stands. Also, I decided to try to color the speaker cabinets black using the tinted epoxy, but it didn't do much to color them. Epoxy colorant is not completely opaque. It works best over an already colored surface such as the stands that were stained with India ink.
I added graphite powder to the colorant tinted epoxy, and it covered the speaker cabinets really good for the first coat.
This is the second coat of tinted epoxy on a stand pedestal This coat is filling the MDF edges well.
(http://i.imgur.com/LuKWZl.jpg)
Before applying the tinted epoxy.
(http://i.imgur.com/kcNfql.jpg)
After...The black epoxy covers pretty good over the brown under color on the speakers
(http://i.imgur.com/gQ6oBl.jpg)
The strong light of the camera flash reveals thin spots unseen during application.
(http://i.imgur.com/fxZZ7l.jpg)
Here's a similar angle, but with less flash. Everything looks covered. Black is a difficult color to work with :icon_surprised:
(http://i.imgur.com/9Rh7Ml.jpg)
Larry...
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Larry, I'm following your finishing with interest. My experience with epoxies is mostly as glue, although I have done a little laminating, both epoxy and polyester resins. Should provide a really tough exterior, no?
Is the graphite powder standard fare for coloring epoxy, I've never used it for anything but a dry lubricant. Pencils too, I guess :lol:
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Larry, I'm following your finishing with interest. My experience with epoxies is mostly as glue, although I have done a little laminating, both epoxy and polyester resins. Should provide a really tough exterior, no?
Is the graphite powder standard fare for coloring epoxy, I've never used it for anything but a dry lubricant. Pencils too, I guess :lol:
Peter,
Yes...graphite is commonly used to color epoxy black. There are other methods as well. I have a colorant made to color epoxy or polyester resin black, but I have never been satisfied with it's ability to hide. This is my first try with graphite. It sure is a lot more opaque than the epoxy colorant. However, sanding makes it look gunmetal gray. Adding just the colorant on the next coats has brought it back to a nice black.
I think using India ink to stain the MDF, and using clear epoxy without any color or graphite would seal the MDF, especially the seams, and bury a nice jet black color under the epoxy. Finish with whatever clear you choose (not lacquer) IMO/ would give a nice durable finish.
I am not sure how this will turn out, but I can always paint everything if needed. :scratch:
Here's a scrap wood strip panel that is glassed/epoxied. I tried a test with just the colorant added to the epoxy shown on the left. I then added graphite to the epoxy, shown on the right. The graphite has much better hiding ability.
(http://i.imgur.com/Nct7ol.jpg)
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I've used colorant but never black and didn't know about graphite.
Here's what I'm thinkin'; dye cabs black or perhaps grey, then 2 or 3 coats graphite loaded epoxy. Sand last coat to reveal the graphite and clear coat on top, theoretically leaving a graphite grey, sorta kinda metallic look.
Do you think think that would look good or better off painting metallic grey?
Always looking for something new and interesting.
P
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I've used colorant but never black and didn't know about graphite.
Here's what I'm thinkin'; dye cabs black or perhaps grey, then 2 or 3 coats graphite loaded epoxy. Sand last coat to reveal the graphite and clear coat on top, theoretically leaving a graphite grey, sorta kinda metallic look.
Do you think think that would look good or better off painting metallic grey?
Always looking for something new and interesting.
P
That's kind of where I am going with the boxes, "the graphite look". The stands will stay black, probably finished in satin clear. My concern is the gray on the boxes won't be uniform. I hate to use my speaker cabinets for the experiment. I should do some testing first. There are probably other powders that might get closer to a desirable gray. I wonder if powder coating powder would work for an epoxy colorant?
A gray aniline dye on the MDF might be better than the black ink to bring out the grayish Graphite :scratch:
I will probably do 3 coats containing the graphite, sanding some between each one. The last one will get a good sanding to try and bring out a uniform grayish color.
Larry
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I like what y9u are doing, it's going to look great :thumb:
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I have been trying to get my colored epoxy coats thick enough that I won't sand through showing the brown MDF, but it's been a struggle on the speaker boxes. The stands are working out much better because I stained the raw MDF with India Ink before applying the epoxy. The speakers were sealed with epoxy, and then more epoxy coats with graphite and epoxy black colorant were applied.
During the sanding I always seem to sand through a spot here and there. I use a sharpie pen to cover the spot and apply more colored epoxy, but I keep sanding through somewhere on the boxes. :nono: I am not sanding all the way to raw MDF, just to the uncolored epoxy undercoats.
I am determined to just use clear coat of some type over the black colored epoxy, and not have to resort to black paint. Also, I must resort to a brush type of clear coat as the weather window for spraying has probably gone by. Sooo... I am open to suggestions for a good tried and true brush type "clear coat" product that will work over epoxy.
I would prefer one that I can apply multiple coats in one day without sanding or very minimal sanding required between coats. I know brushing lacquer would probably be a good choice, but lacquer and epoxy don't place nice. However, there may be a transition clear coating that would allow the use of brushing lacquer. I am not fond of water based coatings, but I am open to suggestions.
My state has very strict VOC requirements for coatings, so local availability of high VOC clear coatings may be a problem.
Any suggestions appreciated....
Larry
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Larry, I've used good old shellac as a barrier coat.
On the copper gilded sub I built, I had a "learning experience" when I sprayed clear urethane over the gilding. The size used under gilding is essentially varnish (oil base) and the hot solvents in automotive clear made it worm and crinkle in a not-so-subtle way.
Redid the whole shebang using shellac over the gilding as a barrier coat and misted the first coats of clear. Shellac barrier coats used to be common in the wood finishing world but I went out on a limb here and it worked. Old way still has it's place...I was happy!
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Larry, I've used good old shellac as a barrier coat.
On the copper gilded sub I built, I had a "learning experience" when I sprayed clear urethane over the gilding. The size used under gilding is essentially varnish (oil base) and the hot solvents in automotive clear made it worm and crinkle in a not-so-subtle way.
Redid the whole shebang using shellac over the gilding as a barrier coat and misted the first coats of clear. Shellac barrier coats used to be common in the wood finishing world but I went out on a limb here and it worked. Old way still has it's place...I was happy!
Peter,
That's an interesting thought. I know shellac is used to seal wood before lacquer finishes. What I don't know is the actual make up of the currently available low VOC products that I may find locally? All these finishes are now completely different formulations, including automotive clear coats. Some are actually water based?? I am pretty much destined to brush applying the final finish on my speakers. I really would like to try automotive clear coat, but I just don't have a warm enough place to spray paint.
Cured epoxy will accept most any finish, but lacquer thinner is an epoxy solvent. I don't know if the current "brushing lacquer" is using lacquer thinner as a solvent, probably not as it is listed as low VOC. The shellac sealer coat may just be the best primer?
Larry
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Trying to stop from sanding through the color on the speaker cabinets is an on going battle. The roundover corner points are giving me headaches. I tried using Zinnsers Seal Coat (de-waxed shellac) as a transition primer for my final finish, but it dries so quickly it is difficult to get an even coat on all the speaker surfaces. However lightly sanding between coats still causes sand through in spots here and there. It's working better on the stands because the raw MDF was pre-stained with India ink.
I want to try wiping on Poly as a top coat as Ron suggested, but since the cabinets are black, is there a colorant product for coloring the poly black to help prevent the sand through? Ideas??
Larry
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I ran out of time to work outside before winter set in, and have been trying to get an acceptable finish on the speaker cabinets and stands. I tried several finishes both brushed, and wiped on. Nothing was acceptable so I resorted to rattle cans in gloss black over multiple coats of polyurethane I had brushed and wiped on. I am working in my basement, so spraying is not best idea.
3 coats of the black spray over my previous finishes ( India ink, epoxy/graphite, epoxy color tinted, shellac, polyurethane) turned out pretty good with only a few dust specs, and a little orange peel in spots. Having experienced final finishing of SOFT finishes such as varnish (not Poly), and rattle can paint, I went directly to 1000 grit wet sanding, and finished with 1500 grit wet. I have found that sanding with coarser paper, and progressing finer is better suited to automotive catalyzed finishes that are much harder.
I know compounds, polishes, glazes, waxes all can bring out a spectacular finish, but again I was concerned about cutting through the soft finish, besides I do have a life! I have heard good things about McGuire's Ultimate Compound, and Polish. Being a Pro-sumer product designed for detailing rather that a body shop product, I decided to give the Compound a try.
I already own a Porter Cable detailers VS random orbit polisher that I use on my vehicles. It allows amateurs like me to get good results with less chance of doing damage :nono: I went at it with the McGuire's after sanding to 1500 grit. I am totally amazed how well the gloss black mirror finish came out! I tried going onto a polish (not McGuire's Ultimate), which should have been an even better finish, but it wasn't? I'm very satisfied with the 1000/1500 sanding and final finishing with the McGuire's Ultimate Compound. A coat of wax, and I am done...
Here's some pics of the process on the stands:
Wet sanding 1000/1500 grit:
(http://i.imgur.com/6Hi7ObBl.jpg)
Sanded to 1500, ready for Compounding with RO polisher:
(http://i.imgur.com/QSffsnjl.jpg)
Gloss finish before waxing:
(http://i.imgur.com/gPMAQ3Ul.jpg)
Larry
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Looking good!!
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Hey Larry
Funny, I was just wondering the other day how your prouject had turned out..
Looking awesome :thumb:
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I finished my stands, and filled them with sand, actually Black Beauty sand blast media.
Just poured the media into my towers using funnel
(http://i.imgur.com/E4nC5Qul.jpg)
Top, bottom, tower filled with sand. rubber stopper to contain sand. A long bolt, and a Tee nut hold it together
(http://i.imgur.com/0HoPbwIl.jpg)
The finish came out pretty nice. I think the epoxy has sealed the seems from showing (so far).
(http://i.imgur.com/VjxqAOEl.jpg)
The finished stands, polished and waxed ready to attach the speakers. It's difficult to tell, but the stands also have Black Chrome spikes.
(http://i.imgur.com/QVHFn7jl.jpg)
Larry
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Wow! Beautiful stands! :thumb:
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+1, awesome job. They look great Larry :thumb:
-jay
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Those stands look great!
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Yes, those look really good! Can't wait to see them with the speakers too :thumb:
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Larry, Those stands do look very nice! (even though painting black wasn't your first choice). Thanks for sharing your India Ink and epoxy/graphite process.
Pete
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Larry, those stands look amazing. :thumb:
And, if you ever find the time, could you summarize your process, specifics products, etc.
When I read thru the thread, my old brain kinda locks up :D
Thanks for the posts and pics.
Neil
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Larry, those stands look amazing. :thumb:
And, if you ever find the time, could you summarize your process, specifics products, etc.
When I read thru the thread, my old brain kinda locks up :D
Thanks for the posts and pics.
Neil
Neil,
I'd be glad to summarize the process. I had planned to doing a general summary when I finish. However, if your referring to to the stands design/construction process, I can detail that process specifically. It's my own design, and the few photos are not exactly clear what's going on.
If that's what you (anyone) would like, I will make up a BOM, cut list, and assembly process description for the stands.
Larry
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Neil,
I'd be glad to summarize the process. I had planned to doing a general summary when I finish. However, if your referring to to the stands design/construction process, I can detail that process specifically. It's my own design, and the few photos are not exactly clear what's going on.
If that's what you (anyone) would like, I will make up a BOM, cut list, and assembly process description for the stands.
Larry
That sounds great and would be a great reference tool.
But what I am interested in, is the finnishing process.
Thanks
Neil
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Finally finished these beasts! I will let you know my listening experience, and document my construction summary soon...
From a first time builder, here's my finished project for peer review....
(http://i.imgur.com/cwjJfMml.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/4waDmZ3l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/8kKsm6Gl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/FQoJpB0l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/HSmiJWll.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/gcJ9H9tl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/7kTVoRol.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/mmqazttl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/E49sFrNl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/kojIBW2l.jpg)
Larry
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Can I just send you my X-SLSs and have you repaint them? That is way above and beyond the quality that AV123 (hiss) used to make. Mine are in little kid bedroom furniture cherry right now. That slick Piano black looks nice! Did you rattle can that or do you have a spray gun?
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Outstanding! :thumb: :thumb:
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Larry, looks like your time and effort paid off nicely. Well done!
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Those look really good.
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Those are amazing and if that's your first build I can't imagine what you'll be capable of from here on out.
I may give that colored epoxy a try on my X-SLS's. Since this was the first weekend of nice weather I've had in months I just cut all the panels for them. i'll be giving Danny a call to order the kit soon.
Once again, Bravo.
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First time builder? Dang, dude got serious skills!
Beautiful! :thumb:
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Larry,
The wait was well worth it. Man, those look FRIGGIN awesome. You must be thrilled with the results..
So.... what's next LOL !?
-jay
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:thumb: Very very nice. :thumb:
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Larry, absolutely gorgeous, frigg-n awesome, and how did you do that?
very very nice, thanks for the pics.
Neil
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Larry,
You did a excellent job on both your speakers and the stands. They look fantastic! :thumb:
Thanks for all the pictures you have posted for everyone to see. Anxious to read your comments on how you think
they sound. I have built a number of pairs of X-LS Encores with all the performance upgrades for others and I think they sound
very nice.
Ron
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Nice work! That epoxy has great results when working with mdf. :thumb:
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These look sweet! You definitely have to write-up your full process (especially how you ended up finishing the speakers). Also, the stand design would be great to see too. Good news is they will sound every bit as good as they look :)
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Larry,
I was following your thread when you started and was wondering how your project would ultimately turn out. Man, You really did a nice job on the finish and those stands look really good the way you designed them! Let us know how they sound when you get some time to listen.
Greg
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I just noticed the date you started this thread. Wow, not only do you have serious skills but amazing patience! :thumb:
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Well... I have about 40 hours of music break-in on the speakers. But, first let me thank everyone for your positive comments!! I have always wanted a pair of stand mounted monitors to replace my 30 year old Paradigm 5SE floor standers. My listening environment/man cave is a small 10'X13' former bedroom. The 4' wide closet has the doors removed, and has been re-purposed to a desktop computer set-up.
When Danny offered these kits with prebuilt crossovers at great prices, I jumped on the X-LS Encore kit after reading several positives reviews. My goal was to build a pair of mains for my small room for both music and HT being driven for now with a Marantz receiver. If they worked out, I would build the matching center, an 8" Servo sub and use other speakers I have for surrounds. If they didn't cut it, they could always be used as surrounds or delegated elsewhere.
Well... after giving them a fair amount of break-in, I can say I am quite pleased with the sound. I am currently only using them for 2 channel. Even though they don't go as low as my old Paradigms the amount of base they can handle is amazing, and it's tight and accurate. Where they really shine is the mids and highs. I am glad I went for the Encore version with the better tweeter. I can listen all day without fatigue in my small room. The clarity of female voices is amazing for such a low budget speaker.
I have been using them streaming Pandora from my Blu Ray player, and even this compressed sound is amazing. I gave them a try with a CD that I knew would give them a real work-out: Tourist Saint Germain '2000 (Electronica) I was pleasantly surprised to hear these little speakers reproduce the full listening range that's on almost every track of this CD. The mids and highs are a given, but I am totally amazed how good the bass sounds.
In conclusion: These are truly good sounding speakers even in their stock form. The upgrades can only make them better. I would not hesitate to recommend these to anyone considering building speakers particularly for a small room environment. A sub would take the already good bass response to another level. They're a keeper!!!
I will summarize my build and finishing methods in another post.
Larry
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If you want to make the most of those old 5se's (I wanted those for the longest time!) you could add some No Rez to the cabinets and rebuild the crossovers with better parts. That will breathe new life into them.
I've done it with a couple pairs of cheap Polk towers and it really works!
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Hey Larry
Glad to hear you are liking your Encores, they are a great little speaker aren't they ? When I built the pair for my neice, I put them in my listening room for a while and was pleasantly surprised as well.
Are you planning on building the matching center channel next ?
We are again at the ame point in our build process's, I just started my break in as welll :) I love the anticipation when you are hooking them up and are about to have that intial listen
-jay
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Larry,
Glad that you are pleased with the sound quality of your X-LS Encores. They are very nice speakers at a budget price. I have built a few pairs of X-LS Encores for others with the Sonicap, Mills, and No-Rez performance upgrade mods which takes the performance up to a higher level. Cleaner, more detailed sound quality, with increased sound field width and depth. If you like your X-LS Encores in stock form, you will like the performance upgrades even better.
Ron
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If you want to make the most of those old 5se's (I wanted those for the longest time!) you could add some No Rez to the cabinets and rebuild the crossovers with better parts. That will breathe new life into them.
I've done it with a couple pairs of cheap Polk towers and it really works!
Your suggestion peaked my interest enough to pull the woofer from one tower in search of the crossover. However, the CO is actually mounted on the rear connector cup. It's a tiny thing consisting of 2 boards connected together with small coils and caps, but these speakers still sound pretty darn good.
I wouldn't know where to start in rebuilding the CO. The particle board (not MDF) cabinet is heavily lined with fiberglass insulation. It looks like installing No-Rez through the woofer hole would be pretty difficult.
These old Paradigm speakers look and sound as good as they did when new. They probably wouldn't fetch much trying to sell them so making improvements does interest me. I will search for what others have done with these old Paradigms, especially crossover improvements or replacement.
Thanks,
Larry
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I mentioned I would summarize my build/finishing process.... When I started this project I decided to document every step (photos) so that others may benefit form all the ideas and suggestions from Forum members, and most of all learn from my mistakes.
If you follow my build from the beginning you will see quickly I am from the "Cheap and Cheerful" school. My construction process is pretty well documented, but my finishing methods were a lot of trial and error. So... I will describe them in a little more detail.
After getting the cabinets glued together and rounding all edges which I agonized over because it's not a conventional speaker look. However, I am happy with the look.
I decided to paint the cabinets/stands. MDF sucks any finish like a sponge and it's well known the glued butt seam can show through almost any finish due to seasonal humidity changes. I have a lot of experience using epoxy in boat building, and decided to try it on this build.
Piano black look was my goal, so I tried a couple methods to fast track the process, and learned a lot along the way. On the stands I used Black India Ink (alcohol based) To stain the MDF. It works great with just one coat, and I highly recommend doing this first step on raw MDF if painting with a dark color such as black.
The next step I rolled on epoxy thinned 10% with lacquer thinner on the cabinets that were not first stained with the ink. Not staining first was a mistake as it added more steps later. The stands were also coated with the thinned epoxy. The epoxy soaked in easily on the MDF.
My original goal was to try to get the color buried under the epoxy and just finish with a clear coat of some type, and buff. However, I had failed to pre-stain the cabinets I needed to get the black color on them without resorting to paint. I tried a couple methods I have used in the past. one was using a special black colorant in the epoxy. It doesn't cover like paint, and the raw MDF was still showing.
The next thing I tried was adding graphite powder. This works a lot better, but it is a grayish black color, not the deep piano black I is was looking for.
The stands were a lot easier to get the nice black color because of the pre-staining with ink. The epoxy really hardens the MDF making it like hardwood. I rolled and tipped 3 colored fill coats after the initial thinned epoxy coat. I sanded between each coat, but I had problems sanding through to the raw MDF in small spots which required more color fill.
When I finally got a nice black color I did the final epoxy sanding. The next step was applying Zinsers SealCoat (shellac). I tried wiping it on, but on the cabinets it dried so fast, it was difficult to get smooth. It worked better on the stands. I used the shellac as a transition primer for the next step, and because I could build several coats in one day.
The next product I tried was Minwax Clear Polyurethane I had left from floor finishing. I applied 3 coats of the poly, sanding between with 320 dry. I couldn't get all the brush strokes to sand out to my liking, and I couldn't take them outside to try spraying the clear because it's winter!
I made a decision that turned out to be a good one. I bought a single can of gloss black spray paint from HD. I was able to apply 3 coats of this black spray on the cabinets and the stands in one session without sanding between coats. One single rattle can did 3 coats on everything! I let them harden for a week.
Having had experience wet sanding and buffing soft finishes in the past, I decide to try some methods I use in boat finishing. Soft finishes such as regular spar varnish are easily sanded with very fine paper. I immediately started wet sanding with 1000 grit 3-M paper, and followed with 1500 grit wet. The surfaces were smooth and free of defects.
I have a Porter Cable random orbit detail buffer I use for my car care. The buffer uses foam pads of various density depending on the product being applied which can be compounds, polishes, glazes, and waxes. I opted to try Mcguires Ultimate Compound which turned out to be perfect for this paint finish. This product is designed for restoring older car finishes. Normally one would follow with a polish, glaze or swirl remover before going on to a wax.
To my surprise, The compound was all that was needed to get a mirror finish before waxing. I tried Minwax paste wax (for wood finishes), but I wasn't satisfied with the result. It slightly dulled my perfect mirror finish. I resorted to a liquid automotive wax. I know most auto waxes contain silicone and can affect refinishing, however, chemical wax removers, and wet sanding has always worked for me in the past removing auto waxes. This wax brought out the Piano finish I was looking for.
In conclusion:
On future builds if I want a piano black finish I will do the following....
- Stain the raw MDF with black India Ink
- Apply 1 or 2 thinned coats of epoxy to seal the MDF
- Apply 2 not thinned epoxy coats, sand smooth
- Apply several coats of Seal Coat, sand smooth
- Spray multiple coats of a clearcoat finish, wet sand smooth with 1000/1500
- Buff with Ultimate Compound, finish with wax, DONE....
Larry
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Your suggestion peaked my interest enough to pull the woofer from one tower in search of the crossover. However, the CO is actually mounted on the rear connector cup. It's a tiny thing consisting of 2 boards connected together with small coils and caps, but these speakers still sound pretty darn good.
I wouldn't know where to start in rebuilding the CO. The particle board (not MDF) cabinet is heavily lined with fiberglass insulation. It looks like installing No-Rez through the woofer hole would be pretty difficult.
These old Paradigm speakers look and sound as good as they did when new. They probably wouldn't fetch much trying to sell them so making improvements does interest me. I will search for what others have done with these old Paradigms, especially crossover improvements or replacement.
Thanks,
Larry
I ran into the same situation with a friend's Polk towers. When I opened them up I found a different crossover in each cabinet. I contacted Polk and they said there were several changes to the crossovers. They emailed me the final version and I got to work using Erse caps and chokes and Mills resistors.
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss207/corndog642/Polk%20R40%20Upgrades/IMG_1901.jpg)
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss207/corndog642/Polk%20R40%20Upgrades/IMG_1917.jpg)
My friend was very happy with them. He said he didn't have to turn up his receiver as much to get them to sound good and that vocals were clearer. They threw up a bigger soundstage too and filled the room better. He also noted that the bass seemed a bit tighter. His son is still enjoying them last I heard.
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Good job corndog.
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beautiful build.
hahahah i was just reading your post about the finish- i now make a point to build a mock cab and finish that first before i do the main cabs. even with veneer. so many times ive been on a jobsite or someones house building something and i always see the painters/stainers come in and do a section of the floor before as opposed to just walking in and saying "ok go to town"
either way you did a great great job on those
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Good job corndog.
Thanks, Danny. I'm just a student following the Master. :thumb:
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Now that the dust has settled! It's time to start the next build, but I need some suggestions...
I am a "Cheap and Cheerful", "Bang for the Buck" kind of guy. Sooo.... Here's some of my thoughts for both HT and Music:
- I already like my Encores and it's well documented that upgrades make them better. Do some upgrades before building more speakers
- I do want/need a new center. Build 1 X-CS Encore to go with X-LS Encores if it's the correct match
- Build 3 X-CS Encores as Mains/center, move X-LS Encores to rears. That's if the sealed X-CS Encores will work as mains (vertical orientation) Could move them close to the wall :thumb:
- Build X-Statiks for mains, X-CS for center assuming it's a match
- Skip the X series, and build N3's for mains
- Build a servo sub, upgrade my X-LS Encores, and build the X-CS Encore for the center
These are just a few possibilities, any other ideas/suggestions are welcome, especially "bang for the buck" suggestions. I now have the plunge base for my little Bosch Router and I am itching to make some saw dust!
Help me spend some $..... :D
Larry
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Hi Larry
Looking forward to following your next build too. Hehe, maybe we'll end up doing subs "together" this time although it sounds like you'll be starting something before I do.
I don't think the X CS would keep up with the Statiks. Danny designed the X Vocca to be the center for the Statiks . The staticks would be a fun build though, I've considered building a pair just for a build. Danny could probably also set you up with the X Vocca parts if you wanted to do the statiks and have the matching center. That would be an awesome set up.
I was wondering if you had considered the X MTM which is just the X CS in a ported tower and then a X CS as the center and like you said, the Encores as rears. That might be nice.
The 3 X CS's as fronts would also be nice, especailly if space is an issue and you want to get closer to the wall.
The AV3's and AV3S woould seem to be a great bang for buck option as well. You could either go with the TL's as mains or do the sealed versioin for both mains and center. I know Ron has a pair of AV3 TL's and is really happy with themn. Basically the same speaker as the N3 with different tweeters
I just love the Neo 3 PDR tweeter. It is justs so detatiled and clear. There is quite a diference when I compare it to the tweeter in my neices X LS Encores. Is it worth the $$ difference, I can't really answer that for you. For me it woould be, I find it makes a big difference.
I would recommend you go with the Sonicap/Mills upgrades in any of the above. The other thing is the no res... if time and ease of installation is a factor, spend the extra $$ on the no res. Man, I used it in the OB7;'s and it was SO much easier to deal with than the vinyl/foam homemade stuff. Plus, you don't have to deal with contact cemnt :)
Theres some more to think about LOL
-jay
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I don't think the X CS would keep up with the Statiks.
Actually they are the same drivers with the same sensitivity. Just one is a sealed box while the other an open baffle with a pair of woofer below to cover the sub 200Hz ranges. If one were limited to placement near a wall or on a shelf in an entertainment system then the X-CS would the best best choice.
Lacro, if you did want to give an X-Voce a try though I have a lot of them fully assembled that I still need to move.
All of those options are good choices. You won't go wrong regardless. Maybe figure out what you most want in the end and then go about getting there building a little at a time.
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Larry,
I have a question about the epoxy that you used on your speaker cabinets. Was it a two part epoxy where you have to mix the resin and hardener together? Also, what brand name epoxy did you use? Approximately how long does it take to dry before you can sand and apply addition coats? I am planning on build a pair of X-LS Encores with a 1/2" radius on all the edges
like yours and I will be painting it a bright gloss red in lieu of gloss black.
Ron
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Larry,
I have a question about the epoxy that you used on your speaker cabinets. Was it a two part epoxy where you have to mix the resin and hardener together? Also, what brand name epoxy did you use? Approximately how long does it take to dry before you can sand and apply addition coats? I am planning on build a pair of X-LS Encores with a 1/2" radius on all the edges
like yours and I will be painting it a bright gloss red in lieu of gloss black.
Ron
Ron, Larry can speak to specific products he prefers, but I believe he's using epoxy laminating resin. Same basic stuff as epoxy glues, but formulated for different applications. You can learn more here;
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Epoxy/epoxy.html
BTW, the guys who run the place have been very helpful when I've talked to them about off beat applications and needed some advice. I've used System Three quite a bit and they used to have a mini-book brochure that was full of all kinds of epoxy info. If you happen to talk to Fiberglass Supply, you might ask them about it.
Found it! Somewhere I have the printed version, but it looks like the whole thing's viewable online.
http://www.systemthree.com/sys3news/?cat=6
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Larry,
I have a question about the epoxy that you used on your speaker cabinets. Was it a two part epoxy where you have to mix the resin and hardener together? Also, what brand name epoxy did you use? Approximately how long does it take to dry before you can sand and apply addition coats? I am planning on build a pair of X-LS Encores with a 1/2" radius on all the edges
like yours and I will be painting it a bright gloss red in lieu of gloss black.
Ron
Ron,
I think you are on the right track using epoxy. I am not at home right now, but I will get back to you this evening with specifics. There are several epoxy brands that will work. However, they all have slightly different characteristics. Those that mean the most to me are: being self leveling, thin type, slow setting, and water clear (color). For your purposes, slightly different characteristics are desired. I will get into those later. Stay tuned...
Larry
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Ron,
I think you are on the right track using epoxy. I am not at home right now, but I will get back to you this evening with specifics. There are several epoxy brands that will work. However, they all have slightly different characteristics. Those that mean the most to me are: being self leveling, thin type, slow setting, and water clear (color). For your purposes, slightly different characteristics are desired. I will get into those later. Stay tuned...
Larry
Ron,
I use a 2 part epoxy which has a 2-1 mix ratio. Raka 127/350. http://www.raka.com/epoxy_kits.html There are many epoxies available, and I have used several, but this particular one exhibits all that I am looking for at a reasonable cost.
It's a "No Blush" type epoxy that is just right in hardness. It levels well, and does not leave air bubbles. The slow hardener is an asset, as it gives you more time to work before it sets. You could apply 3 coats in one day, and sand the next. But.....
I prefer to apply 1 coat and wait about 12 hours, sand lightly, and repeat till I am happy with build finish. Epoxy builds thickness very quickly. Light sanding (or scraping) between coats knocks down the highs before the next coat. The final coat of epoxy (#3or4) will look almost as smooth as the final paint finish. This hard epoxy base will require a lot less paint to finish your speakers.
If need more info/tips, ask here or PM me.
Larry