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Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: rebbi on 25 Oct 2017, 05:19 pm

Title: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 25 Oct 2017, 05:19 pm
Hi there!

Based upon some eye-opening experiences testing a friend's Krell integrated with my M3 Turbo S, I'm considering switching from a 300 B SET amp to something beefier, either solid-state or tube.

Give me recommendations based upon your M3 experiences, please. Budget is $1500 to $2000, new or used. Thanks!!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: SFDude on 25 Oct 2017, 05:26 pm
I have a Line Magnetic 216ia integrated amp that uses KT-88s in triode/ultralinear mode. Very punchy and not necessarily traditional rich tube "bloom" in sound, but quite smooth in any case. 22WPC in triode mode (which is what I exclusively run in) and satisfying with the M3TS.

I also tried my Welborne Labs DRD (45-based) monoblocks and they do not have enough power to drive the bottom end to any degree of satisfaction.

-dave
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: md92468 on 25 Oct 2017, 06:25 pm
Rebbi - don't discount the Yamaha integrateds...the AS1100 sounds wonderful with the Spacials. It's $2.5K new, but you can probably score a demo or used model for less. Built like a tank and smooth as silk, with power and grip to spare...the first SS integrated I can recall hearing that hasn't left me yearning to go back to tubes a month later. YMMV, of course, but I have been pleasantly surprised.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 25 Oct 2017, 07:05 pm
Rebbi - don't discount the Yamaha integrateds...the AS1100 sounds wonderful with the Spacials. It's $2.5K new, but you can probably score a demo or used model for less. Built like a tank and smooth as silk, with power and grip to spare...the first SS integrated I can recall hearing that hasn't left me yearning to go back to tubes a month later. YMMV, of course, but I have been pleasantly surprised.

Interesting suggestion, thank you. By the way, I never really understood what people met when they talk about "grip" of an amplifier on a speaker, but that's what I really heard with this Krell  integrated. Just a kind of musicality and control and clarity that I hadn't heard before. It was startling!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 25 Oct 2017, 08:12 pm
Based upon some eye-opening experiences testing a friend's Krell integrated with my M3 Turbo S, I'm considering switching from a 300 B SET amp to something beefier, either solid-state or tube.

Give me recommendations based upon your M3 experiences, please. Budget is $1500 to $2000, new or used. Thanks!!

I went through the same thing. I thought my killer Coincident Dynamo would be the last amp I ever owned, I could say a lot more but time doesn't permit.

As for a solid (very solid) recommendation with respect to your budget, based on my 4 week experience, you cannot not go wrong with the Nuprime IDA-8. I am confident it will be more resolving than the Krell. The IDA-8 is not only very resolving, it is tight and controlled from top to bottom. I say that as an owner of the same speakers you have. It truly is a bargain for at $1000 USD. Fresh out of the box it sounds okay, but it will greatly benefit from 100 hours of operation time.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 25 Oct 2017, 08:57 pm
I went through the same thing. I thought my killer Coincident Dynamo would be the last amp I ever owned, I could say a lot more but time doesn't permit.

As for a solid (very solid) recommendation with respect to your budget, based on my 4 week experience, you cannot not go wrong with the Nuprime IDA-8. I am confident it will be more resolving than the Krell. The IDA-8 is not only very resolving, it is tight and controlled from top to bottom. I say that as an owner of the same speakers you have. It truly is a bargain for at $1000 USD. Fresh out of the box it sounds okay, but it will greatly benefit from 100 hours of operation time.

So interesting! I had originally considered the Coincident amp, but in the end didn't like the idea of only having one input and having to swap cables to go from analog to digital sources, so I ended up building my own from an Audio Note Kit. But, as I mentioned earlier, I was absolutely SHOCKED at how much better that Krell amp sounds. I, also, by the way, thought that my "Kit 1" was going to be my forever, end game amp….  :lol:

Anyway, the owner of the Krell wasn't using it, and is willing to sell it to me for $1200, which seems to be the going rate – I checked the Audiogon blue book. However, I'm not at all familiar with the amplifier that you mentioned and I will do some research. The Krell sounds tremendous, so if yours is actually more resolving, that would really be saying something.

Thanks again for the post!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: md92468 on 25 Oct 2017, 09:31 pm
FWIW, the IDA8 is a wonderful little amp and a screaming bargain, particularly with a quality DAC on board. It sounds great with the Spatials, which isn't surprising considering Clayton often shows his gear with Class D amps. But if you can stretch the budget and don't mind the size, the Yamaha I mentioned earlier is sonically in another class altogether, has a decent phono stage and a more than decent headphone section. But you can't go wrong with the Nuprime, especially for the price.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 25 Oct 2017, 10:03 pm
FWIW, the IDA8 is a wonderful little amp and a screaming bargain, particularly with a quality DAC on board. It sounds great with the Spatials, which isn't surprising considering Clayton often shows his gear with Class D amps. But if you can stretch the budget and don't mind the size, the Yamaha I mentioned earlier is sonically in another class altogether, has a decent phono stage and a more than decent headphone section. But you can't go wrong with the Nuprime, especially for the price.

Thank you, again, for posting. The reviews of the Nuprime unit  (I am already on the prowl on the Internet for reviews) are tremendous. Only real disadvantage for me is that there is only one analog input, and I have both a digital and an analog front-end. Pity, because it does sound like an absolute screaming bargain.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: restrav on 25 Oct 2017, 11:53 pm
I went through the same thing. I thought my killer Coincident Dynamo would be the last amp I ever owned, I could say a lot more but time doesn't permit.

As for a solid (very solid) recommendation with respect to your budget, based on my 4 week experience, you cannot not go wrong with the Nuprime IDA-8. I am confident it will be more resolving than the Krell. The IDA-8 is not only very resolving, it is tight and controlled from top to bottom. I say that as an owner of the same speakers you have. It truly is a bargain for at $1000 USD. Fresh out of the box it sounds okay, but it will greatly benefit from 100 hours of operation time.

I have IDA-8 very good for under 1k specially with the DAC. it shines as integrated and is not really the best as a power amp. every time i use the analog inputs i am a little disappointed. if u already have a good dac + pre then there could be better options out there mostly used class AB options for a little over 1k to get better sound than what IDA-8 offers. you can find Hegel, Krell.

a step up would be Odyssey integrated

and another step up would be Ayre

all 3 sound wonderful with spatials.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: restrav on 26 Oct 2017, 12:02 am
I have IDA-8 very good for under 1k specially with the DAC. it shines as integrated and is not really the best as a power amp. every time i use the analog inputs i am a little disappointed. if u already have a good dac + pre then there could be better options out there mostly used class AB options for a little over 1k to get better sound than what IDA-8 offers. you can find Hegel, Krell.

a step up would be Odyssey integrated

and another step up would be Ayre

all 3 sound wonderful with spatials.

you might even find Bryston power amp for around the price of IDA-8. again if you already have dac + pre that is.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 26 Oct 2017, 12:25 am
you might even find Bryston power amp for around the price of IDA-8. again if you already have dac + pre that is.

Thank you so much for responding and for the interesting suggestions. Unfortunately, I do not have a preamplifier although I do have an external DAC. So a separate power amp is out of the picture.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: avta on 26 Oct 2017, 01:25 am
I wouldn’t give up on the idea of separates. You can get a new Schiit Vidar for $700 along with one of their preamps and be well within your budget. I have not heard these myself but I’d guess they would best the integrateds you’re considering.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 26 Oct 2017, 01:29 am
I wouldn’t give up on the idea of separates. You can get a new Schiit Vidar for $700 along with one of their preamps and be well within your budget. I have not heard these myself but I’d guess they would best the integrateds you’re considering.

I haven't looked into Schiit but it's an interesting idea. If I had seven or eight thousand dollars sitting around I might buy one of those Vinnie Rossi LIO units with some upgrades, but from a budgetary standpoint that's not going to happen anytime soon.  :duh:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: ACBobert on 26 Oct 2017, 03:04 am
Take the Krell!

1)  You already know you like it.   
2)  A class D amp will not "Grip" your speakers like a well built AB amp.

YMMV, but you asked.

Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: ric on 26 Oct 2017, 02:36 pm
Sounds like you're leaning towards SS, but if you can find one, I have been using a VAC Avatar (original, not upgraded). I can't compare with other amps, but you get an integrated with 30 watts, switchable ultralinear/triode, phono stage, and a home theater bypass to allow for use with, well, home theater. I believe you can also bypass the El34's and use a separate (SS?) power amp.
I've had mine for many years and had the good fortune of getting it on EBay for $1500. With the volume knob starting in the 7 o'clock position, I average about 10 o'clock for cd's and around 11 o'clock for vinyl.
The M3's made me upgrade my power cords and speaker cable since they are easily heard.
I LOVE the sound, soundstaging, etc. and am considering upgrading to the newest Triode version, but am waiting for reviews here. If not, I will happily live with these. Good luck!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: dburna on 26 Oct 2017, 03:09 pm
Sounds like you're leaning towards SS, but if you can find one, I have been using a VAC Avatar (original, not upgraded).

+1 on this.  I had one of these many moons ago, and after many changes (and lots of $$$$ spent) since I sometimes wonder if I wouldn't have been better off back where I started.

-dB
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 26 Oct 2017, 05:50 pm
  2)  A class D amp will not "Grip" your speakers like a well built AB amp.

I beg to differ.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: CSI on 26 Oct 2017, 06:08 pm
Which Class D amp? My Red Dragon Class D has tremendous grip with my Spatials. So does my VR LIO amp section (AB) and my First Watt F7 (Class A). All sound different. All sound great. No lack of "grip" with any of them.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: roscoe65 on 26 Oct 2017, 06:19 pm
I haven't looked into Schiit but it's an interesting idea. If I had seven or eight thousand dollars sitting around I might buy one of those Vinnie Rossi LIO units with some upgrades, but from a budgetary standpoint that's not going to happen anytime soon.  :duh:

I feel your pain.  But there are alternatives.  I bought a secondhand Red Wine Audio Signature 16 (hybrid, 16 Class A/B wpc into 8 ohms, double into 4 ohms).  You're probably looking at around $1,000.  If you contact Vinnie he can retrofit the battery with his ultracapacitor power supply (I seem to recall he quoted around $1,200 to 1,500).  I personally don't feel the need to make the switch.

One added benefit to the Signature 16 is its simplicity.  I'm using it in a second system in my living room alongside my HT.  It drives everything I own.  I have it configured in a total DC system at the moment (LG G5 -> Chord Mojo -> RWA Sig16 -> Omega Super 3HO or SAM monitors.  When Chord releases their Poly module, I will have a complete Roon endpoint from Chord.

All of that being said, if I wanted to move to SS at this point I would probably strongly consider Firstwatt (or a quality Firstwatt clone).  It is the amp that SET people all seem to rave about.  If I were to get rid of one or two of my six amps I would definitely consider it.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: restrav on 26 Oct 2017, 06:58 pm
I feel your pain.  But there are alternatives.  I bought a secondhand Red Wine Audio Signature 16 (hybrid, 16 Class A/B wpc into 8 ohms, double into 4 ohms).  You're probably looking at around $1,000.  If you contact Vinnie he can retrofit the battery with his ultracapacitor power supply (I seem to recall he quoted around $1,200 to 1,500).  I personally don't feel the need to make the switch.

One added benefit to the Signature 16 is its simplicity.  I'm using it in a second system in my living room alongside my HT.  It drives everything I own.  I have it configured in a total DC system at the moment (LG G5 -> Chord Mojo -> RWA Sig16 -> Omega Super 3HO or SAM monitors.  When Chord releases their Poly module, I will have a complete Roon endpoint from Chord.

All of that being said, if I wanted to move to SS at this point I would probably strongly consider Firstwatt (or a quality Firstwatt clone).  It is the amp that SET people all seem to rave about.  If I were to get rid of one or two of my six amps I would definitely consider it.


per the designer and also a lot of user's opinion, spatial speakers match best with higher wattage amps a 16 watt RWA in not ideal for spatial open baffles.
thhats why i recommended Nuprime, oddyssey and ayre
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: roscoe65 on 26 Oct 2017, 07:26 pm
I wouldn't kick this one out of bed:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-integrated-amp-new-lower-price-please-read-2017-10-25-integrateds
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 26 Oct 2017, 07:46 pm
I very much appreciate all of the informative and enthusiastic replies to my original post – thank you all so much! What I now understand is that the M3 (and the M4, as well) being as sensitive as they are can be successfully used with a low wattage, SET amplifier. My little 300 B amp will easily drive the M3's to satisfying volumes. That said, having the chance to listen to my rig with this Krell integrated amp  which pumps out 200 W into 8 ohms and 400 W into 4 ohms (!) I've come to understand that SET, low wattage topology isn't showing the M3's at their best. It turns out that the fellow from whom I borrowed the Krell amp had it in its box under a bed and hadn't used it in quite some time. He's willing to sell it to me for $1200; it sold for about $2500 when it was introduced around 2004 (I think). So I am now dealing with the question of whether I should just grab the Krell or do some shopping around for something more up-to-date. If it turns out to be a solid-state amplifier, has the state of amplifier technology evolved to such an extent over the last decade or so that it doesn't make any sense to buy into "2004 technology?" Or, is the Krell such a quality piece that my previous question is moot?
I should add that years ago, I owned a Bel Canto S300 stereo amp that I think put out 150 W per channel into 8 ohms. I eventually sold it and bought a pair of used Manley Mahi  mono-block  tubed amplifiers that sonically blew the  Bel Canto Away. The Bel Canto was a class D amp, and I'm wondering whether the newer class D amplifiers have evolved a great deal, sonically. My impression is that they have.
Eager for your further thoughts and opinions – thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: roscoe65 on 26 Oct 2017, 07:56 pm
I suppose one option is to network with your local(ish) group of audiophiles.  You have a pair of Spatial Audio speakers that others would like to audition, and others likely have amps that you could audition in your system.

Of course, I'm in metro NY and there are thousands of local audiophiles.  It may be a different story in your neck of the woods.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: 2oldcranks on 26 Oct 2017, 08:44 pm
I plan to use a class D integrated, an april musis aura note 2 that has a B&O icepower amp that is 125/250 watts 8/4 ohm and has a good cd player,fm tuner and a dac that sounds graet to me. I ordered some red M4TMs and plan to pair them.
I used the April Music with my previous Klipsch Forte 2s that had titanium mid and high diaphrams and custom ALK crossovers and it was always very smooth,
It also drives my current Dynaudio Focus 160 s with ease and they arent exactly ticklish if ya know what im sayin.
Ive had four class d amps and they just keep getting better very quickly now like DACs are.
The little April sounds as good as the Revox B150 I still have around and that thing is CLEAN and smooth class A/B,
I can hear no reason a good class D would dissappoint you.Ncores,Ice,and a few others are here now,not catching up. The little 3116 chip amp I nused with a little tube pre was a smack in the face for what you can expect for your hard earned dollar.I believe class d with a tube pre(ala rogue sphinx and the like) is going to be great for us working class slobs that love music,
Good luck and enjoy the hunt  8)
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 26 Oct 2017, 10:19 pm
I should add that years ago, I owned a Bel Canto S300 stereo amp that I think put out 150 W per channel into 8 ohms. I eventually sold it and bought a pair of used Manley Mahi  mono-block  tubed amplifiers that sonically blew the  Bel Canto Away. The Bel Canto was a class D amp, and I'm wondering whether the newer class D amplifiers have evolved a great deal, sonically. My impression is that they have.

Your impressions are quite correct. Class D amps of days gone by are nothing like the Class D amps of today; they are not even remotely close. You'd be in for a heck of a surprise if you were to try something current. I say this as someone who has owned a number of very fine tube amps over the years including ARC PP's, 2A3, 300b and Decware SETs; the Coincident Dynamo (most recent version) my favorite of the lot. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: restrav on 26 Oct 2017, 10:37 pm
Your impressions are quite correct. Class D amps of days gone by are nothing like the Class D amps of today; they are not even remotely close. You'd be in for a heck of a surprise if you were to try something current. I say this as someone who has owned a number of very fine tube amps over the years including ARC PP's, 2A3, 300b and Decware SETs; the Coincident Dynamo (most recent version) my favorite of the lot. 

you prefered Dynamo to ARC?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 27 Oct 2017, 12:09 am
Yes, in every respect.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 27 Oct 2017, 12:57 pm
Yes, in every respect.

Hey, Windchaser,
Did you actually power the M3TS with the dynamo? How did it fare, if so?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 27 Oct 2017, 04:38 pm
I did, the short answer is not good. Well that's putting it lightly. I'll rephrase what I previously wrote back in June...

I have a Coincident Dynamo MKII; under *ideal conditions* it is indeed a very sweet sounding/remarkable amp. Better than the Decware, 2A3, 300b etc I've previously owned. But with the difficult load of the M3ts, it sounds like it's broken ... hardly like a SET. So I switched it out with a lowly TPA 3116 that I have on hand and  :o

IMO, anyone using a SET with these speakers should consider at the very least trying something else.

The problem with SET amps is high efficiency isn't enough. They work best with an easy load, which means they need a smoooooooth impedance. The M3ts dips as low as 3Ω and rises to well over 100Ω; even the Triode Master appears to be a serious roller coaster ride in that respect.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170367)


Oh I should add... this is that aforementioned lowly TPA 3116 (https://www.yuan-jing.com/Finished-Boards-Units3/tpa3116-class-d-2-0-stereo-power-amplifier-50w-50w/). I kid you not when I say this worked faaaaaaaaar better than the Dynamo with the M3ts. That in part is what led me to look closer into Class D. When difference between an inexpensive cheap chip amp and extremely well regarded SET is day and night in favor of the cheap chip amp, you know it's time to look for a new amp.

I had a Nuprime IDA-8 on loan for a few weeks, once it broke in and smoothed out it was another revelation and a huuuuuge leap forward from the TPA 3116. That's not to say the TPA 3116 sounded bad; the person who bought my Dynamo was blown away by how good, powerful and authoritative it drove the M3ts. So that should give you an idea of how good the pairing is between the IDA-8 and the M3ts. But if you require another analogue input, it doesn't have one and that's too bad.





Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 28 Oct 2017, 05:56 pm
I did, the short answer is not good. Well that's putting it lightly. I'll rephrase what I previously wrote back in June...

I have a Coincident Dynamo MKII; under *ideal conditions* it is indeed a very sweet sounding/remarkable amp. Better than the Decware, 2A3, 300b etc I've previously owned. But with the difficult load of the M3ts, it sounds like it's broken ... hardly like a SET. So I switched it out with a lowly TPA 3116 that I have on hand and  :o

IMO, anyone using a SET with these speakers should consider at the very least trying something else.

The problem with SET amps is high efficiency isn't enough. They work best with an easy load, which means they need a smoooooooth impedance. The M3ts dips as low as 3Ω and rises to well over 100Ω; even the Triode Master appears to be a serious roller coaster ride in that respect.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170367)


Oh I should add... this is that aforementioned lowly TPA 3116 (https://www.yuan-jing.com/Finished-Boards-Units3/tpa3116-class-d-2-0-stereo-power-amplifier-50w-50w/). I kid you not when I say this worked faaaaaaaaar better than the Dynamo with the M3ts. That in part is what led me to look closer into Class D. When difference between an inexpensive cheap chip amp and extremely well regarded SET is day and night in favor of the cheap chip amp, you know it's time to look for a new amp.

I had a Nuprime IDA-8 on loan for a few weeks, once it broke in and smoothed out it was another revelation and a huuuuuge leap forward from the TPA 3116. That's not to say the TPA 3116 sounded bad; the person who bought my Dynamo was blown away by how good, powerful and authoritative it drove the M3ts. So that should give you an idea of how good the pairing is between the IDA-8 and the M3ts. But if you require another analogue input, it doesn't have one and that's too bad.

It occurs to me that only having one analog input really is not a dealbreaker, because my sources consist of two that are digital (a CD player and a Mac laptop playing high-resolution files) and an analog source, i.e., a turntable. The one thing about that amplifier, though, that strikes me as strange is that the analog inputs digitize the signal, which seems like a strange thing to do with something coming out of a turntable. Any insight on that?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 28 Oct 2017, 06:15 pm
The one thing about that amplifier, though, that strikes me as strange is that the analog inputs digitize the signal, which seems like a strange thing to do with something coming out of a turntable. Any insight on that?

Sorry, no experience or insight into that as I only have digital sources. However I would like to suggest that if you live in the area of a Nuprime dealer, see if you can demo one in your home for a few days. Hopefully they have one that is already broken in. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Samac on 28 Oct 2017, 06:38 pm
Hey rebbi,

Since you are looking at Nuprime you might want to also consider the IDA-16. With the 3.0Ohm low and the two 15" woofers the 200 watts from the IDA-16 might be advantageous.

I've had the IDA-16 since April with Bowers and Wilkins 683 S2s which also dip to a 3 Ohm low and it's handled them with ease. From my experience the IDA-16 is neutral and balanced. The build quality and functionality are excellent (it has one of the best volume controls  I've ever used).

The review by Vince Hanada at Soundstage is excellent and sums it up very well.

http://www.soundstageaccess.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/607-nuprime-ida-16-integrated-amplifier-dac

Hey rebbi, I think you and I owned Merlin TSMs at the same time a few years back. Good to "see" you.

Cheers,

Scott
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 28 Oct 2017, 07:29 pm
The IDA-16 would be even a better choice but that might push his budget.

There are of them on Audiogon for $2000.  8)
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Samac on 28 Oct 2017, 07:52 pm
The IDA-16 would be even a better choice but that might push his budget.

There are of them on Audiogon for $2000.  8)

Hey Wind Chaser,
****Oops, sorry, they are available new on Audiogon for $1995. When I see Audiogon the first thing I think of is used. My bad.*****
New the IDA-16 is $1995. I think it's one of the best deals out there at the moment. :thumb:
This is where I purchased mine:

https://sonicunity.com/collections/amplifiers/products/nuprime-ida-16

Cheers,

Scott


Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 28 Oct 2017, 10:31 pm
Hey rebbi,

Since you are looking at Nuprime you might want to also consider the IDA-16. With the 3.0Ohm low and the two 15" woofers the 200 watts from the IDA-16 might be advantageous.

I've had the IDA-16 since April with Bowers and Wilkins 683 S2s which also dip to a 3 Ohm low and it's handled them with ease. From my experience the IDA-16 is neutral and balanced. The build quality and functionality are excellent (it has one of the best volume controls  I've ever used).

The review by Vince Hanada at Soundstage is excellent and sums it up very well.

http://www.soundstageaccess.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/607-nuprime-ida-16-integrated-amplifier-dac

Hey rebbi, I think you and I owned Merlin TSMs at the same time a few years back. Good to "see" you.

Cheers,

Scott

Yes, I remember your nickname, too – I think we have corresponded in the past. Good to “see” you again, too. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: I.Greyhound Fan on 29 Oct 2017, 02:52 am
I recently heard a Hegel H160 integrated.  Awesome sounding. 

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/hegel/1.html

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/hegel-h160-integrated-amplifier-1/
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: DavidS on 29 Oct 2017, 03:56 am
I originally ran my M3 Turbo S with a blue circle DAR integrated.  The sound was good - these speakers do seem to want a bit of power.  I have since moved onto Dan Sachs separates - which is different league - but loved the DAR and imagine new Blue Circle integrateds would be pretty nice with these speakers.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 30 Oct 2017, 01:31 am
Anybody using a Peachtree Nova 150 or 300?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: md92468 on 30 Oct 2017, 03:52 pm
Hey Rebbi - I was not impressed with the Nova 150 / Spatial M4T combo. Great bass response, but dry and kind of boring.

Another option to consider is the Belles Aria...I've never heard it with the Spatials, but it sounded amazing with a pair of Vandersteen 1Cis. Excellent phono on board, too. If i was in the market, I'd choose the Belles over the Nuprime or the Peachtree. YMMV, of course.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 30 Oct 2017, 03:56 pm
Hey Rebbi - I was not impressed with the Nova 150 / Spatial M4T combo. Great bass response, but dry and kind of boring.

Another option to consider is the Belles Aria...I've never heard it with the Spatials, but it sounded amazing with a pair of Vandersteen 1Cis. Excellent phono on board, too. If i was in the market, I'd choose the Belles over the Nuprime or the Peachtree. YMMV, of course.

Good to know, thanks.
Also taking a look, seriously, at that Yamaha integrated amplifier (A-S1100 ) that someone recommended earlier. Looks like a beautiful piece and there are some good, used deals out there.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: md92468 on 30 Oct 2017, 04:04 pm
That was me ;) Very happy with mine,  which is why I'm not in the market. Effortless, beautiful to look at, overbuilt...you get a lot for your money. Sacrifices a little bit of sweetness in the highs compared to a good tube amp, but you can't have everything - especially at this price point. With the 1100 and a Border Patrol DAC, I'm happy.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 30 Oct 2017, 07:29 pm
That was me ;) Very happy with mine,  which is why I'm not in the market. Effortless, beautiful to look at, overbuilt...you get a lot for your money. Sacrifices a little bit of sweetness in the highs compared to a good tube amp, but you can't have everything - especially at this price point. With the 1100 and a Border Patrol DAC, I'm happy.

Thank you for reminding me that it was you! :-)
All the reviews say that these things are built like a tank, and that they are very sweet sounding (in the positive sense). And with, what, 150 W into 4 ohms, there should be plenty of power there.
Thanks again!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: md92468 on 30 Oct 2017, 08:20 pm
Plenty of power...I rarely listen above 10-11 o'clock on the volume dial in my smallish room. Enjoy it if you go in that direction!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: JackD on 31 Oct 2017, 03:11 am
Over the last 18+ months with the M3 TS's and now the TM's I have cycled through a lot of combination including SS and tube preamps matched with SS, tube and Class D amps.  I always come back to the DAC10/ST-10 combo as the best match.  If the IDA-16 gets you close that is direction I would go in.  I also have an IDA-8, but as it has been boxed up since I got the 10 combo I have never tried it with the Spatial's. If you could find a hybrid integrated with enough juice that would also be an interesting combo, but short of the Vincent 237 I am not aware of one that's widely available. I've got a hybrid Kora integrated in my Office system with Reynaud speakers but since it's only 60 wpc I feel certain it wouldn't be enough for the Spatial's due to the volume of the room the Spatial's are in.  In the end it will be about what matches best with the Spatial's and not what other members have found to sound good with other speakers. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 31 Oct 2017, 03:32 am
Jack,

If you ever decide to unbox your IDA-8, I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts as compared to the 10 combo on the M3ts.

John
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: JackD on 31 Oct 2017, 04:09 am
John

If I do I will let you know though my inclination is to just sell, which I thought I had, or just give it to my daughter and her new husband.  My memory of the two compared on the GE Triton 5's is that the IDA-8 is to the left of neutral compared to the 10 combo.  How that translates to the M3 TM's in my room who knows. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 17 Nov 2017, 04:17 pm
Still thinking this through (and waiting for my SET to sell).
I'd heard that the NuPrime models can sound a bit "dry." Any truth to that?
Still considering Yamaha integrated or Odyssey.
Too many choices!!!   :duh:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 17 Nov 2017, 04:22 pm
What do you mean by dry?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 17 Nov 2017, 04:27 pm
According to the linked article below, dry seems ideal, no?

http://www.differencebetween.net/technology/difference-between-wet-and-dry-signals-or-sounds/ (http://www.differencebetween.net/technology/difference-between-wet-and-dry-signals-or-sounds/)
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 17 Nov 2017, 05:30 pm
What do you mean by dry?

It was another audiophile that used the term to describe the NuPrime stuff; I'm not 100% certain what he meant (except that he didn't like it).   :lol:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 17 Nov 2017, 05:53 pm
Well there is no shortage of choice when it comes to amps, not to mention speakers, DACs cables etc. And all of these things have to work together like the numbers on a combination lock to open your satisfaction. With countless possibilities it can be overwhelming. It is also human nature to keep on moving, exploring what's out there. But that's another topic.

What you need is a short list of options that ideally you can try in your home. That's the only way you'll ever know for sure if something works for you or not.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: avta on 17 Nov 2017, 06:05 pm
I’ve had a Nuprime IDA 8 for a few years. I don’t find it harsh or bright.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 17 Nov 2017, 06:55 pm
It is neither hash or bright. I had one in my system for a month with the same speakers Rebbi has. IMO it is a very solid choice in terms of performance with outstanding value.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: who?me? on 18 Nov 2017, 06:29 pm
Interesting about the NuPrime, I gave up on them in the early class D years, but sounds like they have matured.

I bought a pair of M3TMs from Clayton this year at a show, he also recommends Red Dragon class D mono amps. they go for about $1000 a pair used.

I have used a Bel Canto Dac for a few years, and it has a built in preamp, which may be an excellent match with their single or mono block amps, there are a variety on the used market for great prices. Remember, Bel Canto used to build tube products, so the CEO voices to the human voice from a tubed perspective. Bel Canto has the $50k "Black" system for the last 2 years, all class D, so their class D products have matured.

It is neither hash or bright. I had one in my system for a month with the same speakers Rebbi has. IMO it is a very solid choice in terms of performance with outstanding value.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 18 Nov 2017, 06:34 pm
There is no comparison between the entry level Nuprime amps today to the high end Nuforce amps of 10 years ago. Class D has made tremendous progress in recent years.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: who?me? on 18 Nov 2017, 06:51 pm
I was thinking the same thing- about a hybrid integrated amp, every for the Triode version.
I haven't tried the Vincent 237, but I had had a BAT VK-300 SE hybrid.

I did not use them with the Spatials, but they would be very good combo I think.
Another "hybrid system" that an owner of the M3Triode masters uses a Schiit Freya preamp ($700, runs as active or passive, tube or no tube options: all options already built in, so you just flip a switch) with a pair of Schiit Vidar mono blocks ($700 each, 100w each i think).

Over the last 18+ months with the M3 TS's and now the TM's I have cycled through a lot of combination including SS and tube preamps matched with SS, tube and Class D amps.  I always come back to the DAC10/ST-10 combo as the best match.  If the IDA-16 gets you close that is direction I would go in.  I also have an IDA-8, but as it has been boxed up since I got the 10 combo I have never tried it with the Spatial's. If you could find a hybrid integrated with enough juice that would also be an interesting combo, but short of the Vincent 237 I am not aware of one that's widely available. I've got a hybrid Kora integrated in my Office system with Reynaud speakers but since it's only 60 wpc I feel certain it wouldn't be enough for the Spatial's due to the volume of the room the Spatial's are in.  In the end it will be about what matches best with the Spatial's and not what other members have found to sound good with other speakers.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: who?me? on 18 Nov 2017, 06:53 pm
Hi rebbi, here is your used LIO < $5k in our classifieds now.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153789.0
best, gary

I haven't looked into Schiit but it's an interesting idea. If I had seven or eight thousand dollars sitting around I might buy one of those Vinnie Rossi LIO units with some upgrades, but from a budgetary standpoint that's not going to happen anytime soon.  :duh:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 18 Nov 2017, 07:23 pm
I was thinking the same thing- about a hybrid integrated amp, every for the Triode version.
I haven't tried the Vincent 237, but I had had a BAT VK-300 SE hybrid.

I did not use them with the Spatials, but they would be very good combo I think.
Another "hybrid system" that an owner of the M3Triode masters uses a Schiit Freya preamp ($700, runs as active or passive, tube or no tube options: all options already built in, so you just flip a switch) with a pair of Schiit Vidar mono blocks ($700 each, 100w each i think).

Clayton recommended Schiit to me as an option. Either Ragnarok integrated or a Vidar with one of their preamps. Not sure what to make of Schiit. Great reviews, especially for their DAC’s but end user opinions seem a little mixed. Clayton also spoke highly of Odyssey products. Spoke to Klaus and he sounds like a great guy and his gear has a stellar reputation. Only hesitation is that his integrated amps have only one input and no volume remote; not dealbreakers but factored in to my thinking.

Thanks for all the valuable information!!
Hi rebbi, here is your used LIO < $5k in our classifieds now.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153789.0
best, gary


Saw that one! But it’s only a preamp; owner says speaker binding posts may not even be functional.  :wtf:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: JackD on 18 Nov 2017, 08:36 pm
He bought it as a preamp/headphone amp.  Check with Vinnie he may can reconfigure the internal wiring. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: RPM123 on 18 Nov 2017, 09:16 pm
You could try one of these if you can wait about 5 weeks: Tavish Design Minotaur Direct-Coupled Hybrid Integrated Amplifier. https://tavishdesign.com/collections/all
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: JackD on 19 Nov 2017, 02:01 am
Rebbi

Here is an interesting alternative at a great demo price from a trusted dealer.  This amp and it's predecessor are both highly thought of.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1VISV237
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 19 Nov 2017, 03:00 am
Rebbi

Here is an interesting alternative at a great demo price from a trusted dealer.  This amp and it's predecessor are both highly thought of.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1VISV237

Interesting suggestion – thank you!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: JackD on 19 Nov 2017, 04:02 am
I'm assuming you would still get their standard 30 day trial period. Always wanted to try one but never saw one for this low a price and now don't need any more gear as I have stuff that needs to go now.  Could you get by with a combo of the Nuprime DAC-9/ST-10 it would get you under your limit and the two are small enough that even if you don't stack them then side by side still smaller than the average receiver or probably your AN amp.  Same is true of my preferred DAC-10/ST-10 combo if you search the dealers for a good combo deal.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Francation on 19 Nov 2017, 06:26 am
You could try a Hegel H80, I grabbed one for under $1000 the other day. Should have it this week, I'll try to give some thoughts on it once I've given it some time. Clayton also recommended the Schiit Vidar to me, probably a solid choice.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: jseymour on 19 Nov 2017, 02:06 pm
Two Vidars are better than one driving my M3 Triode Master.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 19 Nov 2017, 06:32 pm
Rebbi,

Odyssey seperates...  :thumb:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153885.msg1645307#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153885.msg1645307#new)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153884.msg1645306#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153884.msg1645306#new)
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rollo on 19 Nov 2017, 07:28 pm
  Audio Hungary Qualiton A50i or A20i integrated. 50W or 20W class A with NOS tubes. Killer combo. www.audiohungary.com

charles
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 19 Nov 2017, 08:00 pm
  Audio Hungary Qualiton A50i or A20i integrated. 50W or 20W class A with NOS tubes. Killer combo. www.audiohungary.com

charles

Those are stunning.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 19 Nov 2017, 08:16 pm
Rebbi,

Odyssey seperates...  :thumb:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153885.msg1645307#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153885.msg1645307#new)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153884.msg1645306#new (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153884.msg1645306#new)

Very nice! Waiting for my AN SET to sell - got a few nibbles. But that Odyssey combo might be the ticket.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 15 Dec 2017, 04:03 pm
Well, my Spatial Peeps,
The Audio Note Kits Kit 1 sold pretty quickly... I just haven't had much time for Internet forums over the past couple of weeks so I'm sorry for the late notice (to any of you who care...).  :lol:
Cleared around $1800 after shipping and fees and can throw a few hundred more dollars at this, so let's say I have around $2000-2300 (max) to spend.
Options I'm considering:


I know that a number of you are keen on Nuprime and the IDA-16 is within my budget, but I'm hesitant to go the hybrid Class A+D route and I don't have a rational reason for that, so feel free to tell me why I'm being stupid on that count.

Eager for your wisdom!   :o
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 15 Dec 2017, 04:42 pm
I know that a number of you are keen on Nuprime and the IDA-16 is within my budget, but I'm hesitant to go the hybrid Class A+D route and I don't have a rational reason for that, so feel free to tell me why I'm being stupid on that count.

Let’s suppose for a moment that despite all of you who are keen on Spatial speakers, I was hesitant to go with open baffles, even though I didn’t have a rational reason for that. Would I be stupid on that account?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 15 Dec 2017, 07:55 pm
Let’s suppose for a moment that despite all of you who are keen on Spatial speakers, I was hesitant to go with open baffles, even though I didn’t have a rational reason for that. Would I be stupid on that account?

Okay, mostly I can’t quite get past the stereotype of Class D sound. But I know that’s probably outmoded.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 15 Dec 2017, 09:05 pm
Rebbi, I dare say if you try it, you will buy it.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: OzarkTom on 15 Dec 2017, 09:33 pm
You will never regret getting this amp. Rex said better than his $6500 AVC Lio.

http://www.cherryamp.com/stereo-maraschino-stm
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 15 Dec 2017, 09:39 pm
That's not an integrated, is it?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: JackD on 15 Dec 2017, 11:48 pm
rebbi

That demo Candela and a "custom" Khartago or even a stock Khartago would be a very good combo with the Spatial.  One good thing about Klaus' amps if even if you buy them stock you can upgrade at any time. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: restrav on 16 Dec 2017, 12:24 am
Well, my Spatial Peeps,
The Audio Note Kits Kit 1 sold pretty quickly... I just haven't had much time for Internet forums over the past couple of weeks so I'm sorry for the late notice (to any of you who care...).  :lol:
Cleared around $1800 after shipping and fees and can throw a few hundred more dollars at this, so let's say I have around $2000-2300 (max) to spend.
Options I'm considering:

  • Hegel H160 - available used or demo for under $2K. Great reviews. Built in DAC, somewhat limited, which I probably wouldn't use, but reportedly great power at the price and very neutral.
  • Odyssey - I've decided that a volume remote is non-negotiable, so Klaus's integrated's are out, since they are essentially power amps with volume pots but no remote. So I'd be looking at an amp-preamp combo. Klaus has a demo Candela preamp and could build me a bespoke power amp to go with it that would stretch my budget somewhat but might be doable.
  • Belles Aria integrated: MOSFET output stage, great (but under the radar) reputation, under $2K, USA built. Built in MM phono stage, although I don't know how good it is.
  • Schiit Vidar with (probably) Freya preamp: American made, 15 day trial, well within my budget. Clayton hasn't heard the Vidar with the M3TS but says that Schiit used the Spatial's for voicing the amp so he think's it's worth a listen. Also considered the Ragnarok but ( :duh: ) it has no remote, which is bizarre and puts it out of the running for me.
  • Yamaha A-S2100. An outlier, probably, to some of you, but it's supposed to be a tremendous sounding piece, gorgeous to look (not crucial, I know, but still...), musical and non-fatiguing, with a first rate MM/MC phono stage and a great, discrete headphone section. Retail is $3500, but there are a number of California based dealers on eBay selling them for $2300. Problem is they seem to be selling gray market units, so forget any support from Yamaha, which is why they're including a Square Trade, 3 year warranty.
  • Keep the Krell KAV-400xi integrated I'm currently borrowing (the amp that sent me down this solid-state rabbit hole) which the owner will sell me for $1200.

I know that a number of you are keen on Nuprime and the IDA-16 is within my budget, but I'm hesitant to go the hybrid Class A+D route and I don't have a rational reason for that, so feel free to tell me why I'm being stupid on that count.

Eager for your wisdom!   :o

for me the choice weould be easy here. Odyssey with all the upgrades and bells and whistles possible.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Samac on 16 Dec 2017, 12:52 am
As I sit here rocking to Mussorgsky's Pictures At An Exhibition you know which route I'd go, rebbi. :thumb:
The thing is if your enjoying your system with the Krell, buying it would be a good way to go as well.

After a year of looking into a new amp I went with the Nuprime IDA-16 because of the excellent price/performance potential and the 45 day trial period.

After living with it now for eight months I believe it to be a fantastic value; When you consider 200 watts of amplification combined with a great dac and excellent functionality (it has one of the best volume controls I've used).

Good luck in your search, rebbi.

Cheers,

Scott
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: gnatster on 16 Dec 2017, 02:39 am
Jumping in very late here. Going back to tube out of the question. My little M3S powered by a Rogue Cronus Magnum II integrated has been a dream.  Work from home, listen to it for many hours every day and in 2 years have not had a tube issue. Probably cause I have a full set of spares collecting dust. Musical, warm and inviting. Not hard to find on the secondary market. Has a great little MM phono stage too.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: JackD on 16 Dec 2017, 02:48 am
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649392740-black-nuprime-ida16-integrated-amp-with-ess-sabre-dsd-dac-mint/

And you will still have money left over. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: OzarkTom on 16 Dec 2017, 03:00 am
That's not an integrated, is it?

Yes, integrated for $1200, $1700 with 60v PSU. Rex said the 48v STM beat the LIO, but he bought the 36v PSU and liked it even better. 36v will give enough power for the Spatials. Rex likes his STM over his 48v Cherry Monos with his Tortega LDR-3 passive with remote control. That is saying a lot.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: JackD on 16 Dec 2017, 04:04 am
Well the website says it is an amplifier that can be feed by a preamplifier or a DAC so not a fully functional integrated amp.  Would work maybe with a DAC with full volume control as only source.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 16 Dec 2017, 01:46 pm
Well the website says it is an amplifier that can be feed by a preamplifier or a DAC so not a fully functional integrated amp.  Would work maybe with a DAC with full volume control as only source.

 I was also trying to figure out whether that was a full integrated or just a power amp with a volume pot, and it seems, as mentioned above, to need some kind of preamp or DAC to feed it. I was actually thinking that the top-of-the-line Schiit (the Freya, IIRC)  might be a great match, although the synergy factor is always a gamble. Interesting idea, though.  But I do have an analog front-end as well as a DAC, so I would need a preamp, for sure.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 16 Dec 2017, 01:50 pm
Hey, let me just jump in here and add that I am very much enjoying this thread and appreciate the willingness of all of you to participate and share your knowledge and experiences. It’s my hope that, down the line, this thread will also serve as a reference to people making similar decisions about amplification. Thanks again! :D
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 16 Dec 2017, 04:36 pm
It’s my hope that, down the line, this thread will also serve as a reference to people making similar decisions about amplification. Thanks again! :D

In that case we’d be talking about power and and preamps too. I know you have your doubts about Class D, but like yourself I found my favourite SET amp to be woefully inadequate for the task of driving the same speakers. All I can say is if you heard my system, you’d buy the same amps I have in flash. It simply doesn’t get any better. My Class D Amps manifest all the virtues my SET did (with some very special tube upgrades) and a whole lot more. And I’m not kidding when I say a whole lot more.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: morganc on 16 Dec 2017, 06:03 pm
In that case we’d be talking about power and and preamps too. I know you have your doubts about Class D, but like yourself I found my favourite SET amp to be woefully inadequate for the task of driving the same speakers. All I can say is if you heard my system, you’d buy the same amps I have in flash. It simply doesn’t get any better. My Class D Amps manifest all the virtues my SET did (with some very special tube upgrades) and a whole lot more. And I’m not kidding when I say a whole lot more.

Care to share the exact details of your system?  After reading this thread, I feel like you and I have similar tastes.....
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: morganc on 16 Dec 2017, 06:05 pm
Yes, integrated for $1200, $1700 with 60v PSU. Rex said the 48v STM beat the LIO, but he bought the 36v PSU and liked it even better. 36v will give enough power for the Spatials. Rex likes his STM over his 48v Cherry Monos with his Tortega LDR-3 passive with remote control. That is saying a lot.

Hi Tom,
    Are you referring above to the STM vs the In Line Mono's from Cherry?  The STM's are superior to the ILM's on the Spatials?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 16 Dec 2017, 10:31 pm
In that case we’d be talking about power and and preamps too.

 Well, to a certain extent we’ve already wandered into that territory,. I was just looking at an integrated solution because simplicity appeals to me these days. But I’m happy to hear peoples thoughts on power amps and preamps, too.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: OzarkTom on 17 Dec 2017, 03:07 am
Hi Tom,
    Are you referring above to the STM vs the In Line Mono's from Cherry?  The STM's are superior to the ILM's on the Spatials?

Rex also owns the Cherry monos with 48v PS, not the In Lines. I own the Cherry monos with 36v PS and 48v PS. 36v sounds the best.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 17 Dec 2017, 05:17 am
Specifically in what respect do you find the 36V better than the 48V PS and by what margin?  Of course to rightly understand this, it might be useful to know what speakers you are driving in terms of load and sensitivity...

Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: OzarkTom on 17 Dec 2017, 02:44 pm
36v has more detail, clarity, and holographic imaging by about  25-30%. I often said here on AC about the Ncores, give me a lower PSU or battery, the Nores would no doubt sound a lot better.

I have run these with the same results on Zellaton Emotions, Gallo CL-1's, Audio Nirvana 8" full range, and Spatual M-3's. Rex has run his on Omega Super 3HO Monitors, Decware DNA Horns, and Audio Clarinet 1+1's with the same results.

It is amazing how Tommy O amps sounds so good with so many different speakers. And I was one of Tommy's biggest skeptics here on AC.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: OzarkTom on 17 Dec 2017, 02:56 pm
Well the website says it is an amplifier that can be feed by a preamplifier or a DAC so not a fully functional integrated amp.  Would work maybe with a DAC with full volume control as only source.

Rex bought his STM to run his computer desk top system and made the mistake in trying it in his main system. He uses it as an integrated and it has been there ever since, about two years. He uses it with his DAC.

From Tommy O's webdite on the STM.

Quote
Measured Performance is expected to be as good or better than the current Maraschino monoblock design used in the Desktop and In-Line Maraschino Amplifiers.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: mfsoa on 17 Dec 2017, 03:29 pm
If you have a single primary source (balanced preferred) and maybe a second source that is of less importance that you can plug into the STM's front input jack, then the STM will do much of what the Maraschinos can do, and acts as an integrated amp due to the volume control and two inputs. My buddy uses one being fed directly from an OPPO 205, powering Von Schweickert VR4JRs. Simple and great sound!

If you already have a volume-controlled source that you are committed to, or need additional switching from a more conventional preamp, go for the Maraschinos of whatever voltage you decide.

-Mike
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 19 Dec 2017, 04:01 am
36v has more detail, clarity, and holographic imaging by about  25-30%.

How much were/are they?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: 2oldcranks on 11 Jan 2018, 05:28 pm
Hey Rebbi
Ever make a purchase?,I recomended the April music Aura note 2 a ways back,and I can now very truthfully say it is killing it with the M4TMs that I am enjoying.I am guessing that the Krell was too good to pass up?hope you got some sonic bliss :wink:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 11 Jan 2018, 11:34 pm
I spent a few months with this...

https://www.yuan-jing.com/Finished-Boards-Units3/tpa3116-class-d-2-0-stereo-power-amplifier-50w-50w (https://www.yuan-jing.com/Finished-Boards-Units3/tpa3116-class-d-2-0-stereo-power-amplifier-50w-50w)

And believe it or not, it worked surprisingly very well with my M3ts. I know it may seem absurd, but it literally put to shame ...make that - killed a much more expensive tube amp with some very fine tubes.  :o
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 15 Jan 2018, 03:52 am
Hey Rebbi
Ever make a purchase?,I recomended the April music Aura note 2 a ways back,and I can now very truthfully say it is killing it with the M4TMs that I am enjoying.I am guessing that the Krell was too good to pass up?hope you got some sonic bliss :wink:

No, not yet. Unfortunately, I've been navigating a serious health issue in my immediate family so audio fun has taken a back seat. But I'm hoping that as things resolve on that front I'll get back to making this decision.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: 2oldcranks on 15 Jan 2018, 09:11 pm
No, not yet. Unfortunately, I've been navigating a serious health issue in my immediate family so audio fun has taken a back seat. But I'm hoping that as things resolve on that front I'll get back to making this decision.
Bummer,hope it all comes out well.
Peace & Health to Ya
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 24 Jan 2018, 02:56 am
AAAAAAAND.... WE HAVE A WINNER!


[drum roll.....]




















Just ordered a NuPrime IDA-16!   :thumb:

Hoping to have it in a week or so and to get a review up on my blog in due course.

Thanks for all the useful advice. Hopefully I'll be as thrilled with it and my M3TS's as much as many of you seem to be.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Samac on 24 Jan 2018, 03:48 am
That's great, rebbi. :thumb: I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoy mine.  I look forward to your impressions.

Cheers,

Scott
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 30 Jan 2018, 03:13 am
FedEx says it gets here in 2 more days from Taiwan. Woot!!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Samac on 30 Jan 2018, 12:26 pm
Cool, almost here. Don't want to get your hopes up, Steve, but FedEx actually got mine to me a day earlier than scheduled. First time I've had anything audio gear related delivered early. Waiting is part of the fun, enjoy. :D

Cheers,

Scott
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: mpv on 20 Feb 2018, 02:54 am
In that case we’d be talking about power and and preamps too. I know you have your doubts about Class D, but like yourself I found my favourite SET amp to be woefully inadequate for the task of driving the same speakers. All I can say is if you heard my system, you’d buy the same amps I have in flash. It simply doesn’t get any better. My Class D Amps manifest all the virtues my SET did (with some very special tube upgrades) and a whole lot more. And I’m not kidding when I say a whole lot more.

Just bought M3 Turbo S and drove them with Coincident Dynamo 34 SE mkII and to my ears sound is indeed very good.All the tubes are Tung-sol. The guy sold me the speakers drove them with NuPrime STA9.Can you elaborate differences I'll hear going D class,please?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: 1390west on 20 Feb 2018, 06:30 pm
believe it or not, I bought a Chinese tube amp (boyuu) for around$ 800, including shipping.  I than swapped out all the tubes with genelect red lions, about$ 300.  I would happily put this combo against almost any combination of spatial m3t and a different amp.  it smokes just about any  transistor amp  I have heard
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 20 Feb 2018, 07:59 pm
Just bought M3 Turbo S and drove them with Coincident Dynamo 34 SE mkII and to my ears sound is indeed very good.All the tubes are Tung-sol. The guy sold me the speakers drove them with NuPrime STA9.Can you elaborate differences I'll hear going D class,please?

Yeah, I had a Coincident Dynamo MKII. I know this might be hard to accept, but the Dynamo is a very poor match with those speakers...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154294.msg1649764#msg1649764 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154294.msg1649764#msg1649764)
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: mpv on 21 Feb 2018, 12:00 am
Yeah, I had a Coincident Dynamo MKII. I know this might be hard to accept, but the Dynamo is a very poor match with those speakers...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154294.msg1649764#msg1649764 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154294.msg1649764#msg1649764)
I also called today Clayton and he said if tube amp have 4ohms tap I should be ok. M3 Turbo S also have Isoacoustics Gaia III footers. Again Wind Chaser what differences did you heard ? In my system bass is tied and dry,Mids are to die for.All these findings just after I sold my Avantgarde Nano speakers.Are not in the same league but these M3 definitely sing better in my room.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 21 Feb 2018, 03:18 am
mpv,

Check you mail box, you got a PM.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: dspringham on 17 Jun 2018, 10:34 pm
Hey Rebbi,

I see you have your Nuprime listed for sale, so the amplifier search goes on.

You should seriously consider the Job INT. At US$1600 direct the price is in your wheelhouse. The reviews are rave (http://www.jobsys.com/6moonsJobInt.pdf) and the value is off the charts. One box solution with remote control and multiple inputs. Also, the new units no longer convert the analogue inputs into the the digital domain internally so no SQ loss. Includes a stellar DAC as well.

As an owner of the Job 225 power amplifier, I can't see how you could go wrong with the INT for sound and form factor.

Best of luck in your search.

Regards,
Dave
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: md92468 on 18 Jun 2018, 06:19 pm
I can't speak from firsthand experience, as I never owned the two pieces at the same time...but from what I remember of the characteristics of my Spatial M4 Turbos (which I regrettably had to sell) and what I now know about my Belles Aria integrated, I'd imagine the match would be spectacular. I've swapped integrateds a dozen times in the last 6-7 years, but this one is staying. A reviewer said its sound was like "tubes with more grunt"...it's an apt description. Everything is just...right. Decent onboard phono and headphone amp, too. I couldn't be happier, especially for its relatively reasonable price.

YMMV, as always, but IMO it's an impressive little beast that unfortunately hasn't gotten the coverage it deserves. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 18 Jun 2018, 11:45 pm
I can't speak from firsthand experience, as I never owned the two pieces at the same time...but from what I remember of the characteristics of my Spatial M4 Turbos (which I regrettably had to sell) and what I now know about my Belles Aria integrated, I'd imagine the match would be spectacular. I've swapped integrateds a dozen times in the last 6-7 years, but this one is staying. A reviewer said its sound was like "tubes with more grunt"...it's an apt description. Everything is just...right. Decent onboard phono and headphone amp, too. I couldn't be happier, especially for its relatively reasonable price.

YMMV, as always, but IMO it's an impressive little beast that unfortunately hasn't gotten the coverage it deserves.

I had my eye on a Belles Aria, and the reviews have indeed been good. I even think I've recently seen a used one somewhere. I am frustrated at all the great gear out there that you can't listen to in your system before purchase. But I guess that's a good reason to buy used!

I actually exchanged a few emails with David Belles a few weeks ago. He said that the Aria integrated would work well with the Spatial M3 but that he'd more heartily recommend the Aria mono-blocks. Of course, combine those with a preamp and you're well above my budget. *Sigh*

Glad you're loving yours, though!   :thumb:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 18 Jun 2018, 11:48 pm
Hey Rebbi,

I see you have your Nuprime listed for sale, so the amplifier search goes on.

You should seriously consider the Job INT. At US$1600 direct the price is in your wheelhouse. The reviews are rave (http://www.jobsys.com/6moonsJobInt.pdf) and the value is off the charts. One box solution with remote control and multiple inputs. Also, the new units no longer convert the analogue inputs into the the digital domain internally so no SQ loss. Includes a stellar DAC as well.

As an owner of the Job 225 power amplifier, I can't see how you could go wrong with the INT for sound and form factor.

Best of luck in your search.

Regards,
Dave

Hi, Dave!

Yes, I've heard of the Job INT and it's supposed to be good. And given that it comes out of the Goldmund factory in Switzerland, the quality should be there, too.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: dspringham on 19 Jun 2018, 12:39 am
Rebbi,

The latest version of the INT has removed the digital conversion at the analogue inputs. I confirmed this a short time ago with Job tech support. The inputs now go straight to the analogue volume control.

The 225 power amp received universal praise and accolades. Many say the sound quality of the output stage in the INT sounds even better.

As per their review, 6 Moons really liked this unit. Now with the true analogue inputs it has become even better.

No affiliation with Job Systems, just a happy 225 owner about to lay out for a pair of M3 Triode Masters.

All the best,
Dave
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 19 Jun 2018, 12:41 am
Rebbi,

The latest version of the INT has removed the digital conversion at the analogue inputs. I confirmed this a short time ago with Job tech support. The inputs now go straight to the analogue volume control.

The 225 power amp received universal praise and accolades. Many say the sound quality of the output stage in the INT sounds even better.

As per their review, 6 Moons really liked this unit. Now with the true analogue inputs it has become even better.

No affiliation with Job Systems, just a happy 225 owner about to lay out for a pair of M3 Triode Masters.

All the best,
Dave

LOL! I just edited my previous post to reflect a more careful reading of your post regarding the analogue input no longer. being digitized. And then I saw this post. Okay, so we've cleared that up!

 :lol:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: opnly bafld on 19 Jun 2018, 12:48 am
I actually exchanged a few emails with David Belles a few weeks ago. He said that the Aria integrated would work well with the Spatial M3 but that he'd more heartily recommend the Aria mono-blocks. Of course, combine those with a preamp and you're well above my budget. *Sigh*

Did he indicate why?
I can't imagine them being that much better than the integrated (unless paired with a top notch pre of course).  :o
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 19 Jun 2018, 12:49 am
Did he indicate why?
I can't imagine them being that much better than the integrated.  :o

No, he didn't. I wrote back and asked him but never heard anything.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: mick wolfe on 19 Jun 2018, 01:23 am
FWIW, I still have a pair of M2 Turbo's. While they "worked" with a tube amp, they simply sound better with solid state IMHO. Of course  I'm assuming the M3 and M4 present a similar 4 ohm load as the the older M1 and M2 Turbo's. Why would Clayton come up with the Triode Master series if he didn't feel a need to create a better match for tube amps?










Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 19 Jun 2018, 04:49 pm
FWIW, I still have a pair of M2 Turbo's. While they "worked" with a tube amp, they simply sound better with solid state IMHO. Of course  I'm assuming the M3 and M4 present a similar 4 ohm load as the the older M1 and M2 Turbo's. Why would Clayton come up with the Triode Master series if he didn't feel a need to create a better match for tube amps?

Precisely. They do work with a tube amp, even a SET amp like the 300B I used to own. They "work" because they're quite sensitive. But their impedance curve is far from flat, and many lower watt tube amps will be "pushed around" by the speakers because, while efficient, they're not especially "easy to drive."
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 19 Jun 2018, 05:30 pm
That’s what I’ve been saying for a year now.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: James Edward on 19 Jun 2018, 08:29 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181641)

I may be jumping the gun, but this SS Integrated seems to pushing the M3 around quite nicely. I’ve only got one running due to a FedEx mixup, but in mono, with no positioning, no break-in, it sounds great. I imagine having a left speaker will improve things somewhat. Big day tomorrow.
Another upside down picture. Bad for the amp’s heat sinking abilities.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 19 Jun 2018, 08:31 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181641)

I may be jumping the gun, but this SS Integrated seems to pushing the M3 around quite nicely. I’ve only got one running due to a FedEx mixup, but in mono, with no positioning, no break-in, it sounds great. I imagine having a left speaker will improve things somewhat. Big day tomorrow.
Another upside down picture. Bad for the amp’s heat sinking abilities.

Which Luxman is that? It looks like the L-550 AX Mk. II. Is that right?
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: James Edward on 19 Jun 2018, 08:53 pm
Hi, it’s the L-590AX Mark ll. 30 wpc Class A Integrated.
I should add that imaging and soundstage are low on my list of priorities,
with tonality and the ability to play loudly being more important to me. Hence
my ability to say I like the speaker with only a single one playing in mono.
Two speakers at the same time should really be the icing on the cake.
Interestingly, both speakers left Utah and one headed east, the other in a more
southerly fashion. It’s in Virginia as I write this.
BTW, is the owner’s manual online somewhere? A cursory look at the Spatial site
turned up nothing. I’d like it for tomorrow’s arrival so I have some positioning tips.
Maybe it’s in the other box...
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 19 Jun 2018, 08:55 pm
Hi, it’s the L-590AX Mark ll. 30 wpc Class A Integrated.
I should add that imaging and soundstage are low on my list of priorities,
with tonality and the ability to play loudly being more important to me. Hence
my ability to say I like the speaker with only a single one playing in mono.
Two speakers at the same time should really be the icing on the cake.
Interestingly, both speakers left Utah and one headed east, the other in a more
southerly fashion. It’s in Virginia as I write this.
BTW, is the owner’s manual online somewhere? A cursory look at the Spatial site
turned up nothing. I’d like it for tomorrow’s arrival so I have some positioning tips.
Maybe it’s in the other box...

I received my PDF of the owners' manual via email from Clayton after placing my order, but he may be distributing it differently now. I'd ask him.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 19 Jun 2018, 10:16 pm

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181647)
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Wind Chaser on 19 Jun 2018, 10:20 pm
Hey James,

If you send me a private message with your email address, I can email you a PDF of the owners manual.

John
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: md92468 on 20 Jun 2018, 06:22 pm
I had my eye on a Belles Aria, and the reviews have indeed been good. I even think I've recently seen a used one somewhere. I am frustrated at all the great gear out there that you can't listen to in your system before purchase. But I guess that's a good reason to buy used!

Hey Rebbi,

Long time! Hope all is well. FWIW, I have heard (at a local dealer) the Aria Integrated and Aria mono blocks with speakers that are in a comparable class to the Spatials, and while there are noticeable improvements in moving up the ladder (as there should be given the price points), the Belles house sound and virtues are present in both. I am continually impressed by the Aria's sense of scale and detail, the latter of which I did not expect from this amp (in part because the lone review I could find made little mention of it). For my needs and in my set up, the integrated is enough to keep me happy; the convenience of having one box trumps the benefits of the last level of detail that become available by the upgrade to mono blocks. Bottom line - I wouldn't shy away from the Aria simply because of what might be possible with Belles' three box solution....
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: rebbi on 20 Jun 2018, 06:33 pm
Hey Rebbi,

Long time! Hope all is well. FWIW, I have heard (at a local dealer) the Aria Integrated and Aria mono blocks with speakers that are in a comparable class to the Spatials, and while there are noticeable improvements in moving up the ladder (as there should be given the price points), the Belles house sound and virtues are present in both. I am continually impressed by the Aria's sense of scale and detail, the latter of which I did not expect from this amp (in part because the lone review I could find made little mention of it). For my needs and in my set up, the integrated is enough to keep me happy; the convenience of having one box trumps the benefits of the last level of detail that become available by the upgrade to mono blocks. Bottom line - I wouldn't shy away from the Aria simply because of what might be possible with Belles' three box solution....

That’s really nice to know, thank you!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: heywaj10 on 15 Nov 2018, 06:57 pm
May be blasphemous in these parts, but still curious all the same. Has anyone had experience with Spatial M3/M4's with any McIntosh amps or integrateds?  I'm curious how the synergy between the brands' house sound play. I'm considering a McIntosh MHA-150 as a one-stop-shop component in the future, which provides 50w @ 4ohms. I'd figure Spatial's sensitivity would do well with that power, but curious if any of you have heard the combo.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: Dgood107 on 30 Mar 2019, 03:47 pm
Does anyone have or heard an M3 turbo/M3tm with an Ayre AX7e integrated amp
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: SnowPuppy77 on 29 Jun 2019, 12:12 am
Wondering if the M3 would go well with the PS AUDIO - Stellar S300.  Class D amp as Windchaser recommends.  Reasonable price.  Anyone here ever tried it on the Spatials? 

I have the M3 TM by the way.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: JackD on 29 Jun 2019, 02:35 am
Based on my experience with the M3TS and M3TM this is a better choice than the S300 and cheaper also the Nuprime ST-10.

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/nord-two-ice-power-1200as2-power-am
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: harley.guy07 on 29 Jun 2019, 10:36 pm
Wondering if the M3 would go well with the PS AUDIO - Stellar S300.  Class D amp as Windchaser recommends.  Reasonable price.  Anyone here ever tried it on the Spatials? 

I have the M3 TM by the way.

I do not have the S300 but I did just install the Stellar Gain Cell DAC into my system and it is a killer component. Totally balanced design which my Pass Labs amp loves. Gain Cell technology that has no Potentiometer or Resistor latter volume control to get in the way of the sound and the ability to play almost all the formats. If the amps are any where as good and the Preamp I thank they would sound great with them
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: paolocaminiti on 12 Mar 2021, 05:42 pm
Bumping this thread as I'm a still M3 Turbo S owner. Would have gone sapphire or X already but is so difficult to buy Spatial from UK.

Has anyone tried Line Magnetic beefy set amplifiers with spiatial speakers? Especially the diffuclt to drive turbo s? Or any other 805 845 based amp?

Since I owned them I tried a multitude of amps: t-amps, icepower, forte class a, ahb2... With and without a freya+ running high quality tube... but I keep coming back to my humble PSVANE tc-3 300b integrated set, it's just so much more musical, makes everything flow and swing especially with jazz. At the cost of almost no bass under 50hz is still my favourite choice.

So I've been wondering if one of those Line Magnetic high wattage integrated like the 508/805 or 219/845 could just be the soultion or if it's time to abandond the turbo s for me which will be a more difficult road.

Thanks, I read all I could about those amps but all feedback is very appreciated.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: morganc on 12 Mar 2021, 06:54 pm
I have experience with 300/845/211 amps, and Spatials, but not together.
If you like a low powered 300 amp, I would bet that a 845 would give you the bass that you want and keep some of the 300 magic. 
I owned a pair of Audion Black Shadows (845) and the Audion Golden Dreams (300) with a pair of Zu Druids and the combo was amazing. 
The Melody 845 Integrated is also a nice amp.
I have not heard the Line Magnetic, but I am sure that the 845 must be nice as well. 
The 6C33 based amps are also a good choice if the heat is not too much and you do not have kids or pets!  Excellent warmth, bass and tonality. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: geerock on 12 Mar 2021, 07:26 pm
Take the Krell!

1)  You already know you like it.   
2)  A class D amp will not "Grip" your speakers like a well built AB amp.

YMMV, but you asked.

My thoughts exactly!  Grab it.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: genjamon on 12 Mar 2021, 08:37 pm
Back in early 2015 I bought the Spatial M1 Turbo about a month before Clayton released the original M3's to mate with my Line Magnetic 518IA amp (845 tubes).  The M1 Turbo is pretty much the same thing as the M3 Turbo S, just with a more expensive to manufacture baffle that is probably better damped than the M3 baffle.  At least, that's what Clayton told me when I asked him why he didn't tell me before I ordered the M1 that he was going to release a much less expensive equivalent to the M1 in the near future.

It sounded good, for sure.  But I blew two 845 tubes within a few months.  The first was one of a used pair that a local buddy loaned me.  Not sure how many hours it had on it, but they could have been closer to end of life.  The second one was a brand new Psvane 845WE, which Grant Fidelity replaced since it was under warranty.  At the time, a friend and I had inquired of Clayton quite a bit regarding impedance curves and had a bit of hard time extracting the info from him.  He just kept insisting the speakers were good with tubes, generally.  But later we learned they do dip below 4 ohms in the bass frequencies, which made us wary of the match with tubes. 

Anyway, I'm really not sure if the tubes blowing was due to the difficulty of the M1 load, or due to the age of one tube and a quality control issue in the other tube.  But it made me suspicious at the time, and when I nabbed some used Daedalus speakers at a good price, I sold the M1's and never looked back. 

The fact that Clayton subsequently designed the Triode Master version of the M3 to be a better fit with tubes also makes me think the M3 Turbo S is not the best match with tubes.  And 845 tubes are darned expensive to experiment with in this manner.  Therefore, I'd be hesitant to recommend the pairing you're envisioning, though it did sound good.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: ric on 13 Mar 2021, 02:30 pm
"The fact that Clayton subsequently designed the Triode Master version of the M3 to be a better fit with tubes also makes me think the M3 Turbo S is not the best match with tubes." 
(Sorry, I don't know how to highlight) I would disagree with the above. I own the M3TS and have never had a problem. I own a VAC integrated EL34 tube amp, and I HAVE had problems with Chinese made tubes, specifically Sophia Electric, which sound great but are not reliable IMO. I can't comment about an amp blowing tubes because of an impedance problem, because I have not had that experience. It DOES seem that others had problems with their (lower wattage?) amps hence the upgrade for the TriodeMasters, but for some reason I got lucky and my amp seems to work fine.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: paolocaminiti on 13 Mar 2021, 07:35 pm
Thanks guys for the inputs. The VAC surely is a gorgeous piece of gear and Clayton too recommended me to try a push pull el34 to drive the turbo s.
But I'm really "biased" - pun intended - I really believe SET and pure class a have an edge on how the music flows. The speakers have been happy with most of the amps I tried, I love the speakers and even the 70$ tamps can get a proper hold of the big drivers with ostensively better performance in many areas... it's just not the same thing as a SET musically, and the highs... I mean the spatial will really let you know if it's transistors or class d they are coming from.

It sounded good, for sure.  But I blew two 845 tubes within a few months.

Did both channels blow up? I didn't have tube issues rolling 300b in the low powered set. And I suppose the transformer should take the burden first, but then the 845 are a different beast for sure.

Does anyone have any of that information about the impedance curves dropping below 4ohms to share? Curves graphs or anything? I remember I saw one for the triode master but not for the turbo s. Perhaps if this information exist I can check with the people at Line Magnetic, they have been quite prompt in answering my emails.
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: genjamon on 13 Mar 2021, 08:12 pm
I never got any impedance curves from Clayton - only him admitting after a period of time of pressing him for the info that they did dip down into the 3's in the bass. 

No, it wasn't both channels - just one channel each time.  And again, one of the tube sets had plenty of use, so might have just been end of life on that one.  And the other tube was brand new, so could have been a quality control issue.  So I'm not saying there is definitely an issue.  Make of my situation what you will.  It made me skittish enough to be interested in moving on from either amp or speakers if an interesting alternative became available, but someone else might have taken more of a wait-and-see approach.  I probably would have given it a longer time horizon to see as well, but the Daedalus came along at a good price and I found them a higher quality speaker all around and without the impedance concerns, so kept them over the M1's.     

If you have a good line of communication with Line Magnetic, you should definitely take advantage of the opportunity to ask them.  Maybe Clayton has some curves he can share with you to share with them. 

Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: paolocaminiti on 13 Mar 2021, 08:46 pm
This is all very uselful, thank you.

Out of curiosity and a bit off topic did you keep the line magnetic to this day? Did you compare it to other amps with the spatials?

I'll try reach to Clayton, but I understand as a second hand customer from Europer (which should not even be a thing to begin with) I must in a position to be too annoying :)
Indeed if I was in the US I had long go with a pair of the new lines he is making...
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: genjamon on 13 Mar 2021, 10:12 pm
I do still have the Line Magnetic, but have not used it hardly at all for the last 3+ years.  I have an almost 3 year old, and have almost exclusively been using an Odyssey Kismet stereo amp instead of the Line Magnetic since he was born.  The 845 tubes are just too dangerous for little fingers, even with the tube cage.  It would be too easy for him to poke at them with something small through the tube cage gaps.  And he also LOVES turning dials.  I needed a sturdier amplifier solution.  I have thought of selling the Line Magnetic, since it likely won't be in use for quite a while longer, but just haven't gotten around to it. 
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: paolocaminiti on 13 Mar 2021, 11:19 pm
Good you changed speakers... I'm sure your toddler would have loved to poke in the open baffle big woofers as well! :D
Thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: Integrated amp recommendations for M3 Turbo S?
Post by: genjamon on 13 Mar 2021, 11:40 pm
Yeah I sold the Daedalus partly for toddler reasons. The tweeters on my current Zu Omen Dirty Weekends are protected by a metal mesh, so that works well. But I still have caught him reaching for the whizzer cones on the main drivers a number of times. No permanent damage yet - knock on wood!