[sfox7076]

So after trying repeatedly to integrate my subwoofer and my songtowers, I discovered it is my pre-amp/pro.  Apparently the Outlaw 990 has some real bass management issues in the analog section.  I never noticed it with my Paradigms, but with the SongTowers, like exposing a bad recording, it exposes bad bass management.  It appears that even in bypass mode which is supposed to remove all D/A conversion, the pre-Am/pro still routes bass to the subwoofer regardless of how the speakers are set up in the menus.  Not good when I want to listen to 2-channel, nor good when I try to route the sound through the 7.1 analogs in.  The new firmware released by Outlaw has not helped the issue.  So when I move to Blu Ray over my 990's analog inputs, I will not be able to deal with the issue.  So, well, it looks like it might be time for a new pre/pro.  Any suggestions?  I am considering the Anthem Dv2v, but assume it's out the door cost is about $8,000.  Any other ideas?  It has to do HT, I don't want to do the HT bypass because my wife will never pay attention to the issue.  So what are your thoughts?  Who is using a pre/pro they like with the STs?  I am also likely to go for a Wyred 4 Sound amp at some time in the future.  I am looking at the MC Mini, but I want to wait until some 2 channel reviews are out there as HT seem to be good.  I would love to test the amp as well as I am not sure that the amp will work with the STs, but we will see.  Obviously AVA gear is also an option on the amp side, but I am not really ready to jump there yet as I would want to get to the tube versions as I imagine the Insight would not be a huge difference from the Outlaw (though I am probable wrong with that), but also know I would get upgradeitis and want the tubes anyway...

Shawn 

[jd3]

Shawn,
For a 'cheap' fix you might want to try the Outlaw 970.  I also had the 990 for a while, but was concerned with the analog bass management.  The 970 has switchable bass management.  I was very satisfied with its analog performance with the ST's.  In fact, if it weren't for the fact that I like the ease of HDMI, I'd consider buying another one, and may still do that when Outlaw's 997 is released and they blow the remaining stock out.  I think the 970 can be had for $379 now.  You can always try it for 30 days too and if it doesn't work out return it.  Just a thought.

John

[audiocrazy]

I used Integra DTC-9.8 preamp that has Direct mode that by passes the bass management.
I use Outlaw 770 for HT and Cary Audio V12 tube amp for music.

[dvenardos]

Another option is dumping the Pre/Pro and going to a multichannel analog preamp, you just let the dvd player do all the decoding and use the analog outs. The guys that do this really like it because you are golden for music.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64641.0

[R Swerdlow]

So after trying repeatedly to integrate my subwoofer and my songtowers, I discovered it is my pre-amp/pro.  Apparently the Outlaw 990 has some real bass management issues in the analog section…

So, well, it looks like it might be time for a new pre/pro.  Any suggestions?…

I am considering the Anthem Dv2v, but assume it's out the door cost is about $8,000.  Any other ideas?  It has to do HT, I don't want to do the HT bypass because my wife will never pay attention to the issue.  So what are your thoughts? 
Shawn

There are good deals now on Audiogon for used B&K pre/pros.  Look for the Reference 50 or Reference 50 series 2 models.  They have one of the best sets of bass management features I've seen.  They even allow creating some digital notch filters in the 20-300 Hz range to smooth out room bass response.  They should be a step up from your Outlaw pre/pro.

B&K recently started selling a new model, the Reference 70, with lots of video upconversion options, HDMI connections, etc.  Lots of people are selling their older pre/pros just to have a new one.  If you can do without the video bells & whistles, you can get a pre/pro with apparently the very same audio processing and sound quality.

I recently replaced an old mid-grade Denon receiver with one of these.  I was using the Denon as a preamp along with external amps to drive my STs.  So far I am very pleased and impressed with the B&K.

Richard

[fsimms]

Another option is dumping the Pre/Pro and going to a multichannel analog preamp, you just let the dvd player do all the decoding and use the analog outs. The guys that do this really like it because you are golden for music.

I have found that the quality of the DAC's in a typical HT preamp are better than the DAC's in DVD players.  Of course that is dependent on the brand and model.  I am sure if you spend enough on the DVD player, it would be fine.

Bob

[sfox7076]

The analog pre/pro sounds interesting, what would you suggest?  If I don't hear down that route, I would use the bass management in the pre/pro for Blu Ray.  I would just want bass management I could shut off to make the 2 channel only the songtowers.  I aslo don't want a non-hdmi pre/pro (unless I do all analog) really because I live with that now and want to move up.  I have the first non-beta tester Outlaw 990 as I bought it at the New York Nome Entertainment show in 2005.  Sadly, it is likely no collectors item, so I can hope to get $400 for it.  Anyway, I want something that gives me HDMI and actual bass management on/off.  Audissey or the like might be nice too.  It would work well with my new Rythmik Salk Sub (when it comes).

[dvenardos]

The analog pre/pro sounds interesting, what would you suggest?  If I don't hear down that route, I would use the bass management in the pre/pro for Blu Ray.  I would just want bass management I could shut off to make the 2 channel only the songtowers.  I aslo don't want a non-hdmi pre/pro (unless I do all analog) really because I live with that now and want to move up.  I have the first non-beta tester Outlaw 990 as I bought it at the New York Nome Entertainment show in 2005.  Sadly, it is likely no collectors item, so I can hope to get $400 for it.  Anyway, I want something that gives me HDMI and actual bass management on/off.  Audissey or the like might be nice too.  It would work well with my new Rythmik Salk Sub (when it comes).

Check this thread, there were a lot of great suggestions in there:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64641.0
I decided to build my own passive preamp and am collecting the parts. I was in a similar situation, I have never been happy with my Outlaw 970 for music (although not your problems, your 990 has got to be defective because it just isn't supposed to be that way - I would send it back for service) and with the amount of money to get a pre/pro that is as good for music as I wanted it to be I figured I was better off spending the money on Oppo's upcoming BD player (Nuforce worked extensively on the analog outputs) and the analog preamp since my preference is for music.

[R Swerdlow]

The analog pre/pro sounds interesting, what would you suggest?  If I don't hear down that route, I would use the bass management in the pre/pro for Blu Ray.  I would just want bass management I could shut off to make the 2 channel only the songtowers.  I aslo don't want a non-hdmi pre/pro (unless I do all analog) really because I live with that now and want to move up.  I have the first non-beta tester Outlaw 990 as I bought it at the New York Nome Entertainment show in 2005.  Sadly, it is likely no collectors item, so I can hope to get $400 for it.  Anyway, I want something that gives me HDMI and actual bass management on/off.  Audissey or the like might be nice too.  It would work well with my new Rythmik Salk Sub (when it comes).

For a higher price ($3,000?), look into the new B&K Ref 70 http://www.bkcomp.com/products/preamp-receivers/?tx_ttproducts_pi1%5BbackPID%5D=22&tx_ttproducts_pi1%5Bproduct%5D=11&cHash=4a85173845

Download and read the owner's manual to understand the details of its bass management.  I am pretty sure it offers an easy way switch it on and off.  Also read the Room EQ and Room Resonance sections of the manual.  It provides you the way to measure your room response in the range of 20-300 Hz.  And it has a built-in parametric equalizer that can create 3 notch filters to smooth room resonances in that range.  Unlike Audyssey, you have complete manual control over this process.

http://www.bkcomp.com/support/manuals/current-product-manuals/

[Big Red Machine]

Here's a suggestion:

Stick with HDMI and a decent preamp/processor unit and get a DSP for the bass to handle it properly.   I use a QSC DSP30.  There are other equivalent DSP units to manage your bass response in very sophisticated ways.  I use the pre/pro for the surround processing and manage the bass though it at the sub out with the QSC.  Onkyo SC885 and Pana BD30 BR.

[dvenardos]

The bass is really incidental to his problem. What he is looking for is a musical av pre/pro, he will have to go a lot higher than decent to get that.

[BoB/335]

Discussions like these are so over my head. 

[sfox7076]

So I won the newest OPPO Early Adoption sweepstakes and will be getting their BD-93.  I will try and see what I can do with this pre-amp right now.  The analog pre-amp seems like a good idea, but I am not sold on it completely because the room I am in is not an ideal listening room.  It is my living room which has a bunch of wooden furniture.  The wife does not permit acoustic treatments as they are "ugly".  I cope.  So, it is looking more like  a true pre/pro.  I am looking at Anthem v. Denon.  Any input on those?

Shawn

[dvenardos]

Shawn,
I don't have a recommendation for you on the Anthem vs. the Denon, but I did find the bass matrix for the Outlaw 990.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/support/990_analog_bm.html
Basically the only way to get the subwoofer off for music is to set the mains to full range and the subwoofer to LFE. You would lose the crossover for the fronts, but it might be less annoying for you.

Also, have you seen GIK art panels? They are very cool, I just ordered one.
Also, they have some great furniture bass traps.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=63960.0

Good Luck,
Don

[earthbound]

Shawn,
I don't have a recommendation for you on the Anthem vs. the Denon, but I did find the bass matrix for the Outlaw 990.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/support/990_analog_bm.html
Basically the only way to get the subwoofer off for music is to set the mains to full range and the subwoofer to LFE. You would lose the crossover for the fronts, but it might be less annoying for you.

I have the Denon 3808CI and the same applies; i.e. set the fronts to large and the sub to LFE only, though I'm not sure what happens with a 5.1 SACD. I still have small, non-Salk fronts  so I need the sub for music too.

[sfox7076]

I have tried the bass matrix after the firmware upgrade and there is still a random skip in bass response above 50 hz.  It seems to happen no matter what way I set the pre/pro up.  So, try as I might, I cannot fix the issue.

[ThorsHammer]

May want to take a look at the Emotiva UMC-1 that's about to hit the shelves...should be maximum bang for the buck;
http://emotiva.com/umc1.shtm

Twin Cirrus® 32 bit dual core DSP’s for uncompromised high resolution HD audio decoding

Decoding support for Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Digital True HD, Dolby PLIIx, DTS, DTSES, DTS HD, DTS Master Audio, DTS Neo 6, SPDIF, PCM 8 channel (note: some audio formats only supported via HDMI)

Genesis® Torino high performance video scaling engine with full Faroujda DCDi® processing

10 bit video resolution

Dolby volume

Automatic Emo-Q™ multi channel room correction and automatic loudspeaker setup. Calibrated measurement microphone included.

Quadruple bass manager with independently selectable  high and low pass frequencies from 40hz – 160hz

Balanced subwoofer output

All legacy video inputs can be scaled and output over HDMI at up to 1080p

HDMI sources can be format converted to component video up to 1080i

Full color graphical OSD over live video, including HDMI

All inputs are assignable and feature input labeling, selectable decode modes, selectable triggers, etc.

Independent graphic EQ and bass and treble controls

0.5dB level trims

High voltage, low impedance main analog outputs (7 VRMS)

5 - HDMI inputs and 1 HDMI output.

3-  composite video inputs (RCA)

3 - S-video inputs  (S-video mini DIN)

3 - component video inputs (RCA)

1 - component video output (RCA)

4 - stereo analog audio inputs (RCA)

1 - 7.1 analog input set (RCA)

1 - 7.1 analog output set (RCA)

4 - coaxial digital inputs, (RCA)

3 - optical digital inputs  (Toslink)

1- coax digital audio output (RCA)

1- optical digital audio output  (Toslink)

1 - Stereo or 2 channel analog multi channel mix down output  for fixed level monitoring (RCA)

1- stereo analog variable and independent Zone 2 output (RCA)

1 - stereo analog fixed level record output (RCA)

High performance  AM/FM tuner with 24 FM and 6 AM presets

3 - assignable trigger outputs Movie/Music/Amp (3.5mm mini)

1- IR input (3.5mm mini)

1 - IR output (3.5mm mini)

1. Microphone input (3.5mm stereo mini)

1- USB data input  (for software upgrades only)

[Nuance]

So I won the newest OPPO Early Adoption sweepstakes and will be getting their BD-93.  I will try and see what I can do with this pre-amp right now.  The analog pre-amp seems like a good idea, but I am not sold on it completely because the room I am in is not an ideal listening room.  It is my living room which has a bunch of wooden furniture.  The wife does not permit acoustic treatments as they are "ugly".  I cope.  So, it is looking more like  a true pre/pro.  I am looking at Anthem v. Denon.  Any input on those?

Shawn

If it's between those two, definitely the Anthem D2V.  It has less issues and can receive firmware upgrades, something Anthem is quick to do if there are any issues.  It's pretty much THE processor, but also comes at a very steep price. 

[sfox7076]

I have 3 friends waiting on Emotiva processors.  It's sort of like waiting for godot for them.  And, well, I want a company that delivers when it promises or at least lets us know where they are.  I am really considering the D2.  I can get it for about $5k all in.  It's a lot of money for one piece, but it is also a unit that will likely last 4-5 years.  It also solves a lot of the cable issues my wife hates.  My only harder issue is dealing with how to route SACD from my huge Sony ES changer.