Thinking of adding an amp to a denon 4311...worth it?

Rooster19 · « **on:** 12 Nov 2013, 01:31 am »

So after a year of tranquility, I'm starting to wonder "what next".

I currently have songtower fronts, boston acoustic in wall rears and sides, and a hsu sub, all run with a denon 4311.

I'm thinking of adding an emotiva amp during their Black Friday sale, but wanted to see what the masses thought of that idea -- Worth it, waste of money, or placebo?

Thanks --

ccotenj · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 02:00 am »

waste of money/placebo...

chargedmr2 · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 04:45 am »

Would you benefit from more power? I'm not sure the STs would want more power than you're feeding them, so maybe other upgrade options would be better.

glangford · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 10:50 am »

I agree. The 4311ci is a pretty decent amp in itself. I have SCST and use a denon 3311ci. I have no need for an external amp to it.

zybar · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 02:04 pm »

I have a Song Tower based HT (5 ST's + 4 other surrounds + 3-6 subs) and it was a substantial difference going from the Denon receiver (Denon 3808) to adding external amp.

I first tried an ATI amp (can't remember the model number) and then went with a Parasound A51.

Can't comment on the Emotiva, but generally speaking, a good dedicated amp will perform better than the amps in the receiver.

George

ccotenj · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 02:44 pm »

the power of placebo is strong...

pslate · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 02:48 pm »

Similar to what you have been considering, I have been switching amps in and out of a setup with an HK receiver. Good move, but you may end up paying for a good difference. The exception may be finding a bargain used. I was lucky to find a used SDS-254 class d amp built by Gary Dodd. Very nice. Played with other T-Amps, and even an Emo amp I have for a different zone in the house. The emo was not a big improvement, but now it actually gets more use then ever. With a new baby, the family room downstairs is next to his room. Upstairs the emo has a volume control and is run with an apple express and a V-Dac. Making that a nice feature for a lean set-up. This system gets a ton of use now. I may need to start bringing up the nice components to that system now. The new Peachtree DAC ITx is running downstairs too. Anyhow, long rambling story

I love playing with amps which can lead to things like external DACs, be forewarned it can be addictive and pricey!!! Maybe look for a used virture, class-d, or hypex?

benguin · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 02:58 pm »

I've had my 4311 driving my HT system for about a year now, with SS8s, center, and surrounds. For the vast majority of listening, it did absolutely fine. The 4311 is one of the best HT receiver values out there.

The difference for power comes into play with more dynamic or higher volume situations. In those cases, I almost always hooked in my older Hafler 500w amp to the LR mains- and it does make a clear difference. The Salks are now in their more permanent location not connected to the Denon but my recent additiona of an AVA 600r gave a big boost in clarity and speed any of the other power iterations(seriously- and I am generally a skeptic on theses things) for the sound. The placebo effect was tested via my musician wife, with a complete non-disclosure of what, if anything I had changed. She was able to point out differences that I hadn't even noticed.

Off-loading some of the 4311's amplifying tasks to a dedicated amp frees up some power for your other channels as well. If you can pick up a reasonable amp that you like, I think you'll be pleased.

Frans · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 06:12 pm »

Depends on how power hungry the speakers are, and how large the room is. I needed more power than my 140wpc Receiver could give and bypassed it in favor of a standalone 5-channel amplifier. The greatest benefit I get from my Receiver is room correction, so my next upgrade will be a surround-processor (no need for built in amplification). Eventually...

Rooster19 · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 06:59 pm »

Thanks everyone - I never listen very loudly and have never heard (or at least don't think I've heard) distortion of clipping. I think I 'll stick with the 4311 and find some other way to use the upgrade funds that's burning a hole in my pocket.

zybar · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 07:02 pm »

Quote from: Rooster19 on 12 Nov 2013, 06:59 pm

Thanks everyone - I never listen very loudly and have never heard (or at least don't think I've heard) distortion of clipping. I think I 'll stick with the 4311 and find some other way to use the upgrade funds that's burning a hole in my pocket.

Before deciding, do you have a way of hearing an external amp added into the equation?

That is really the best way to make such a decision.

George

ccotenj · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 07:10 pm »

Quote from: Rooster19 on 12 Nov 2013, 06:59 pm

Thanks everyone - I never listen very loudly and have never heard (or at least don't think I've heard) distortion of clipping. I think I 'll stick with the 4311 and find some other way to use the upgrade funds that's burning a hole in my pocket.

prudent decision...

SiCOH Chemyst · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 08:10 pm »

^+1
I went through the same thing with a Yamaha Aventage. Do I upgrade to a McIntosh amp my brother offered for a great price? No way to go unbalanced to balanced on connections. Then I bought an Outlaw 200x5 amp. Were unbalanced connections good enough? Then I bought a Marantz pre for the balanced out. Sound is great, like the features, but my Yamaha and cash in my pocket were also a pretty nice combo... It's a slippery slope once you go down that path.

Austin08 · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 08:31 pm »

Quote from: SiCOH Chemyst on 12 Nov 2013, 08:10 pm

^+1
I went through the same thing with a Yamaha Aventage. Do I upgrade to a McIntosh amp my brother offered for a great price? No way to go unbalanced to balanced on connections. Then I bought an Outlaw 200x5 amp. Were unbalanced connections good enough? Then I bought a Marantz pre for the balanced out. Sound is great, like the features, but my Yamaha and cash in my pocket were also a pretty nice combo... It's a slippery slope once you go down that path.

IMO,
I do not think outlaw amp is a true balance design amp.
I am not sure any Marantz proc (maybe AV8801 does) is true balance design either.

Do not confuse with xlr connectors input/output vs true balance design.

Vulcan00 · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 08:54 pm »

My experience with adding additional amp:

When I ordered my HT2-TL, I used a Onkyo receiver 130w/ch to drive them. I then upgraded to an oppo 83SE. The new player made a significant better sound. I then got a Parasound halo A51. At that time the extra power made no difference at low listening levels. At high sound levels, other than play louder I could not tell much difference. The next purchase was the Parasound P7 preamp. Now a much more transparent sound was achieved at lower and high sound levels. Not until I treated my listening room fully with sound absorption did I hear the 3d, holistic sound I had read about.

My point is there is very few single upgrade additions will provide a marked level of sound improvements IMHO without addressing the other limiting preforming equipment in your system. This opinion is made with the understand that you have speakers that are capable, which is what you have.
It never ends

RDavidson · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 08:58 pm »

Quote from: Rooster19 on 12 Nov 2013, 06:59 pm

Thanks everyone - I never listen very loudly and have never heard (or at least don't think I've heard) distortion of clipping. I think I 'll stick with the 4311 and find some other way to use the upgrade funds that's burning a hole in my pocket.

Yeah, I agree. The 4311 is likely giving you plenty of power especially since you're using a subwoofer to take a large portion of the load off the 4311's amp. But, with that said, what you might get with an external amp is more refinement. Is it worthwhile? To some, yes. To others, no. It's really up to you and your listening / entertainment priorities. I have the luxury of two systems. One for music only and one for HT, each in separate rooms. My HT system, which I take less seriously of the two, doesn't have separate amps and I'm running a decent Yamaha Aventage receiver. If I were back in a situation where I had to combine the 2 setups, I'd be running separate amps even if I didn't "need" them, just for that added refinement.

But, to each their own. I suggest trying a separate amp, and if you don't feel it is giving you enough added benefit (other than more loudness / power), just return it. At least you gave it a try and experienced it for yourself rather than relying solely on others to make a decision for you. No I don't work for Emotiva and have never heard or owned any of their products.

RDavidson · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 09:04 pm »

Quote from: Austin08 on 12 Nov 2013, 08:31 pm

IMO,
I do not think outlaw amp is a true balance design amp.
I am not sure any Marantz proc (maybe AV8801 does) is true balance design either.

Do not confuse with xlr connectors input/output vs true balance design.

+1 The use of XLR connections does not always equate to fully dual differential (balanced) circuitry. Often, manufacturers put them on gear just to provide another hook-up option.....which is lame, because it just adds cost to the product without providing true benefit.

SiCOH Chemyst · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 09:22 pm »

Quote from: Austin08 on 12 Nov 2013, 08:31 pm

IMO,
I do not think outlaw amp is a true balance design amp.
I am not sure any Marantz proc (maybe AV8801 does) is true balance design either.

Do not confuse with xlr connectors input/output vs true balance design.

Would you mind investigating (Outlaw 7500/Marantz 7701)? I'd be very curious to hear what you find out.

RDavidson · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 10:05 pm »

Quote from: SiCOH Chemyst on 12 Nov 2013, 09:22 pm

Would you mind investigating (Outlaw 7500/Marantz 7701)? I'd be very curious to hear what you find out.

Not to sound condescending or anything, but can you not research these products yourself, especially since you are the main party interested in finding this info? I doubt that any single person on this board has the specifics you're looking for. Giving Outlaw and Marantz USA a call or email and talking to a technical assistant would probably give you the fastest and most comprehensive answer.

ccotenj · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 Nov 2013, 11:15 pm »

c'mon guys, you are only missing a few audiophile code words... you can do it...