AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Tortuga Audio => Topic started by: tortugaranger on 25 Feb 2016, 03:35 pm
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Would very much appreciate your input on the 2 remote options below.
Option #1 - Menu Driven Display with Simple Remote - This option requires only the simplest of generic remotes - much like the existing Apple remote. You use the remote to scroll through menu options on a high resolution display and select what you want. A good example of this is the original Apple TV which also uses the Apple remote. The simple remote still has some dedicated functions assigned to to buttons like raise/lower volume etc.
Option #2 - Custom Remote with Dedicated Buttons - This is the classic custom remote approach with more buttons that the Apple remote with each button having a customized specific function. There may be a high resolution display as well but there won't be a menu since all the functions/choices have a button on the remote.
Which do you prefer?
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#1 Simpler
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Hi Morten, what do you mean by a "high resolution display"? I'm just playing with a DIY DAC that has a small LCD for setting things and that seems fine for the purpose.
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Would the display be readable from 12' to 15'? If not, option 2 would be better.
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Hi Morten, what do you mean by a "high resolution display"? I'm just playing with a DIY DAC that has a small LCD for setting things and that seems fine for the purpose.
By "high res display" I mean something a step up from discrete 7 segment displays or even lower res character based LCD displays. Basically, brighter, clearer, larger font LCD display (probably OLED type).
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Would the display be readable from 12' to 15'? If not, option 2 would be better.
Yes, that's the idea. Large enough clear bright font to be readable from listening chair.
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#1, a great majority of the time the volume is all that is used.
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#1
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Yes, that's the idea. Large enough clear bright font to be readable from listening chair.
In that case, #1 would be my preference. A simple remote is always more attracive. Like others have stated, on/off, volume, and mute are really the only features used once everything is set up.
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#1
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Thank you all for your inputs.
#1 is the approach we've been working on and it is certainly my personal preference for the next version of our preamp controller. Whether or not we stay with the Apple remote or end up with a custom Tortuga remote, any remote we use going forward will be very simple and will rely on a menu driven visual display to navigate through custom options and setup. Much like the Apple remote, remote buttons will be limited to Menu (display menu), Raise/Lower (volume etc.), Left/Right (change input etc.), Mute, Enter (confirm/select) and possibly On/Off although even On/Off will likely become the default display item when the Menu button is pressed so may prove redundant.
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I use the balance on almost every album or song I play. Maybe it's just me. But I find almost no recording is perfectly balanced (at least to my taste). I'd go for simple if it included a simple balance system, easily accessible. I still use my original Tortuga remote (with 2 back-ups in the closet) for this reason. In truth, I probably never would have tried the Tortuga if it had not offered remote balance.
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I use the balance on almost every album or song I play. Maybe it's just me. But I find almost no recording is perfectly balanced (at least to my taste). I'd go for simple if it included a simple balance system, easily accessible. I still use my original Tortuga remote (with 2 back-ups in the closet) for this reason. In truth, I probably never would have tried the Tortuga if it had not offered remote balance.
Even with the simple remote described earlier, there will still be balance adjustment. During normal listening the raise/lower button will control volume while the left/right buttons will control balance adjustment by default. The display will clearly show if the volume is biased left or right.
To change inputs, the user will have to first press the Menu button, scroll down one level to "INPUT" and then use the left/right button to switch inputs.
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Sounds great. Do you think my collection of early model remotes have a chance of becoming collector's items?
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Not clear about a choice but would like to have the display go blank when one was not making a change. Would like to see this feature with the current model. I find the numeric display a bit distracting while listening.
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Option 1
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A remote having as few buttons as possible, different shapes & colored buttons, easy to use & fits your hand. No small order.
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I'm the Apple remote guy!!! Please keep the apple remote.. even as 2nd choice with less features like just the vol, mute and power on and off...
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I'm the Apple remote guy!!! Please keep the apple remote.. even as 2nd choice with less features like just the vol, mute and power on and off...
No plans to exclude the Apple remote from future versions of our preamps. Will keep the Apple remote functionality as long as Apple continues to make those little silver remotes which are perfect for interacting with visual menu driven devices. We may add our own custom remote as an option but it will be similarly simple. Both would work.
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Not clear about a choice but would like to have the display go blank when one was not making a change. Would like to see this feature with the current model. I find the numeric display a bit distracting while listening.
How long a delay would you prefer until display turns off? Others have made similar requests and I have no objection to the concept. My concern is how this would work in actual practice. For example, the screen goes blank and no music is playing - is the unit on or off? You forgot, so you press the "menu" button to turn it on but it already is on and so it turns off. There may be a reasonable workaround which is that any key press is ignored if the display is blanked while unit is on and all it does is turn the display back on.
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How long a delay would you prefer until display turns off? Others have made similar requests and I have no objection to the concept. My concern is how this would work in actual practice. For example, the screen goes blank and no music is playing - is the unit on or off? You forgot, so you press the "menu" button to turn it on but it already is on and so it turns off. There may be a reasonable workaround which is that any key press is ignored if the display is blanked while unit is on and all it does is turn the display back on.
That's not a bad idea, but I'd prefer the display on all the time...
Do others know they can dim the display? I have mine set on the dim side, it's not that bright at all.
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That's not a bad idea, but I'd prefer the display on all the time...
Do others know they can dim the display? I have mine set on the dim side, it's not that bright at all.
That is also part of the challenge in introducing this feature. Some will not want to the display to go off and some will. Enabling/disabling this feature adds another level of complexity to an arguably already complex remote system. This won't be a problem in the next generation board/display but is very challenging to add this to the existing dual 7 segment display.
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What about making the lowest dim setting be the new feature of activating the display when a button is pushed? I realize you are out of programming space, but it would satisfy all users.
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What about making the lowest dim setting be the new feature of activating the display when a button is pushed? I realize you are out of programming space, but it would satisfy all users.
Here's what maybe could work with minimal reprogramming and still be simple. When the preamp is in brightness adjust mode, pressing the right button could enable the display to go dark after *TBD* seconds. Pressing the left button while in brightness adjust mode disables the display-go-dark timer.
Which leaves the question....how long after last control adjustment before display should go dark? 1 minute, 30 seconds, 10 seconds ?
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Here's what maybe could work with minimal reprogramming and still be simple. When the preamp is in brightness adjust mode, pressing the right button could enable the display to go dark after *TBD* seconds. Pressing the left button while in brightness adjust mode disables the display-go-dark timer.
Which leaves the question....how long after last control adjustment before display should go dark? 1 minute, 30 seconds, 10 seconds ?
I think 5 seconds is long enough. But remember, a dark display causes you to lose where you are. You might need to ignore the first button press and use it to wake up the display.
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A remote having as few buttons as possible, different shapes & colored buttons, easy to use & fits your hand. No small order.
+1! And no damned screen!
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+1! And no damned screen!
Our very first model had one LED on the front panel and no numerical display. Numerous customers asked for a "damned screen" so we eventually came up with one and are now developing a next generation approach.
The downside to no display at all is running blind and either giving up certain unique features or using a complex custom remote with too many buttons most of which most will rarely need to be used. I personally don't like complex remotes and clearly most of you are of similar mind.
Therefore our next generation design will use a very simple remote plus a large font LCD display with the option of having the display go dark a few seconds or so after each command input. Too many people like having a display to do away with one altogether. But you'll have the ability to turn off the display (the "no damned screen" option). :thumb:
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How about a button on the remote to kill the screen so if you just want to change volume you don't need to have the screen on?
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How about a button on the remote to kill the screen so if you just want to change volume you don't need to have the screen on?
That's a possibility but then again it requires one additional custom button - one that's not currently on the Apple remote - so a true custom remote would be needed. The alternative with a display/menu is to provide a menu option to turn off the display. Once the display/menu is off the question becomes how to turn display back on without a custom button. Possibly a press/hold of center button for a couple of seconds could be used to turn display back on.
Better yet, when display is turned off simply pressing the menu button on the remote could wake it back up. Very intuitive.
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Simpler, Simpler, Simpler. This is (in my opinion) a No-Brainer (with apologies to those who suggest Option2 ... no offence intended).
Cost ... an Apple Remote is somewhere between $Free and $30. You cannot build an Option2 Remote into your product and sell it for less than + $100.
Note: If for some reason Option2 gets implemented, then don't even bother with sourcing a remote. Use a $80 Universal Remote, include it as a reasonable extra-cost option, and encode it for your product. At least that way you get a Remote that is actually worth the additional cost you are forcing your customers to endure, alternately they may already have an universal remote to use with your freely published control codes, saving them some money.
Now, when I say "Simpler ..." I don't necessarily mean you *must* have the menu-driven interface and continue to use the Apple Remote. First Question I would have is what you need a menu-driven interface for in the first place?
What un-necessary configuration options are you planning to implement in a (for example) pre-amplification device that actually needs input select and volume control and nothing more? Surely anything else is not so commonly used to the point where it cannot be done with a physical switch?
Just being Devil's Advocate here a bit. But regardless of what you want to do and how you choose to do it, PLEASE use the simplest and least expensive option, as a way of showing some respect for your customers, who are abused enough by most of the World's product manufacturers already.
Somewhat off-topic but what your preamps really need, instead of a new-fangled remote, is more than 3 inputs. Even just 4 would be a huge improvement.
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Thanks for your thoughtful input! :thumb:
Cost ... an Apple Remote is somewhere between $Free and $30. You cannot build an Option2 Remote into your product and sell it for less than + $100.
True dat!
Note: If for some reason Option2 gets implemented, then don't even bother with sourcing a remote. Use a $80 Universal Remote, include it as a reasonable extra-cost option, and encode it for your product. At least that way you get a Remote that is actually worth the additional cost you are forcing your customers to endure, alternately they may already have an universal remote to use with your freely published control codes, saving them some money.
Have considered this more than once. The challenge here is you end up with way too many buttons with very few if any having labels. It's like the worst possible #2 solution.
The next Gen preamp controller will likely have Bluetooth. This will allow control via both android and iOS smartphone apps once fully developed. Soft remotes if you will. Only the buttons you need, clearly labeled. $0 incremental cost for most users.
Now, when I say "Simpler ..." I don't necessarily mean you *must* have the menu-driven interface and continue to use the Apple Remote. First Question I would have is what you need a menu-driven interface for in the first place?
Here is the current list of control functions:
Turn on
Turn off
Raise volume
Lower volume
Mute
Unmute
Next input ( or individual input select buttons #1, 2, 3, etc.)
Enter (confirm/lock in)
Channel balance left
Channel balance right
Brightness increase
Brightness decrease
Display on
Display off
Impedance setting raise
Impedance setting lower
Impedance level raise
Impedance level lower
AutoCal start
AutoCal stop
Too many for just a simple minimalist remote unless used in conjunction with a visual display with menu/feedback.
A visual display could be eliminated by going with a more complex custom remote. However, many people (myself included) want clear status info from their attenuator. What's the current volume level (step # or dB)? Is the balance biased left or right and by how much? Etc.
Moreover, since our LDR preamps are digitally controlled and use autocalibration we need some way to display diagnostics etc. Bottom line is these are not rudimentary preamps with only a volume knob and input select switch...hence they need a visual display.
Somewhat off-topic but what your preamps really need, instead of a new-fangled remote, is more than 3 inputs. Even just 4 would be a huge improvement.
Our first model preamp was the LDR6 and we got tons of inquiries from people saying they only wanted/needed 1-3 inputs. Our LDRx model does accommodate optional 4th, 5th, and even 6th input albeit at a higher price point.
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I'm with glynnw - I use the balance control often. It would be much easier to be able to change balance on-the-fly without having to go into balance adjust mode. Thanks!
Gerry
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suggestion for display off after 5 mins, but once the numbers go blank, maybe leave a dot lit so that we know that the unit is powered.
Alternatively, would a addition led connection be possible which would be on so long as the unit is operating.
I do like the Apple remote but find my big fingers accidently activating something instead of the intended volume adjustment.
My fears just happened after many months.
Hit something, god knows and the I didnt know what operation it was but the volume jumped to 70. and music was playing, luckily nothing blew. But that was very scary and safety with the wrong function may be considered for implementation.
How about a auto mute whilst certain functions are selected, maybe by accident. I dont know what selection caused the unexpected jump in volume, it was definately not autocal, but did look suspiciously similar.
A safety could be a combination of the round control area together and followed by mute button so they are physically apart and woyld not accidently trigger unknown combinations with just the main circle portion of the being using.
This would prevent unknowingly double press and incorrect combinations activing something else apart from the volume up down.
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Thanks for your thoughtful input! :thumb:
... [snip] ...
Our first model preamp was the LDR6 and we got tons of inquiries from people saying they only wanted/needed 1-3 inputs. Our LDRx model does accommodate optional 4th, 5th, and even 6th input albeit at a higher price point.
Certainly people will have different needs with regard to the number of inputs, with a certain number needing exactly one and no more (and perhaps this is more common with a Passive Preamp user than the typical Active Preamp user).
I can also see the merit of limited inputs as a standard configuration ... the additional, unused relays are premium parts and the RCA jacks are relatively expensive. However I wonder what the incremental cost penalty would be for increasing the default to even only 4 inputs, and further allowing the customer to define how many relays and sets of RCA jacks desired (maybe they only want 1 pair, for example).
I'm just trying to resolve the additional cost of your current extra input option, which seems excessive. I know there must be good reasons based on your costs, but maybe it would be worthwhile to explore more options and see what you can come up with that is mutually beneficial.
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I'm just trying to resolve the additional cost of your current extra input option, which seems excessive. I know there must be good reasons based on your costs, but maybe it would be worthwhile to explore more options and see what you can come up with that is mutually beneficial.
In trying to offer the option of additional inputs we had to design several different rear panels each with a different number of openings for jacks and with unique labeling requirements. All of that extra design and special fabrication and custom labeling takes additionally time and has relatively high marginal cost because we produce relatively small quantities of these optional items. Going from 3 inputs to 4,5 or 6 also adds an input switching board. The Cardas jacks are not inexpensive either. It adds up. So while their costs may seem excessive, they're essentially custom builds and are priced accordingly.
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Lots of great points here. I vote #1 and simpler. I am currently waiting to beta test a new "universal remote" that will be all things wise and wonderful. :wink: It can accommodate Apple Remote commands, so am interested to see how well it will behave with the LDR.
I like the Apple remote though, somewhat ironically, as an Apple guy, I have to remind myself every time what it does. Still, volume almost always, and input occasionally, and balance even less frequently, are pretty much all I use. I like having the screen indicators. They are very simple, almost elegant, and not too bright.
On the LDRxB, I think the system is well implemented. About to order a second for my headphone listening station, I have been so blown away by the impact on my speaker system.