Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.

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Hoiman

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Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« on: 8 May 2018, 10:05 am »
Can somebody help me with the following theory from the shop owner.

At home we are currently listening to B&W 803 D3 loudspeakers. The problem we have with it is that the Bryston 4B sst in combination with the Bryston SP2 gives to much bass.

We don't know if the 4B sst just can't handle the bass or the speaker can't handle the Bryston. So the owner of the shop (where the B&W are from) gaves us an Esoteric S-03 for loan and told us that this will solve the problem.

To bad it did Not, it made it worse then with the Bryston 4B sst.

Now he is telling me that it's the Bryston SP2 that give to much "something" to the Esoteric and that's why the B&W still has to many low/bass.

Now this afternoon he will bring a pre amp (don't know which one yet) that will really solve the problem.

Now I wonder if someone can explain me what can go wrong between the pre amp and end amp that make the low frequenzy so bad?
By bad I mean the speakers bass resonate to much so you can't listen anymore to it because it really hurts to your ears.
Maybe I have to buy a new Bryston 4B3?
I don't know if the 4B sst is good enough for this B&W. The B&W needs 300 watt by 8ohm and that is also the max that the 4Bsst can deliver, so I maybe need an more powerfull amp?

Already thanks for your info.

Mag

Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #1 on: 8 May 2018, 11:04 am »
I'm at a loss, for me there was not enough bass. Perhaps you have the bass extension button engaged? Also if you are using the SP2 in multi-channel mode you can configure the bass output to speakers. Even try setting speakers to small as that would route the bass to the sub channel.

I know from past experience that if an amp can't drive a speaker the bass will sound like ass. But the 4B should have enough power to drive a speaker.

James Tanner

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #2 on: 8 May 2018, 11:07 am »
HI Hoiman

The 4B is more than capable of driving the B&W which I think you proved by inserting another amp and the bass got worse.

Put the SP2 in 2- channel Bypass mode and that should tell you if anything is wrong with the settings on the SP2.

james

Hoiman

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #3 on: 8 May 2018, 11:09 am »
Quote
2- channel Bypass mode

Forgot to say, but it's in this mode already.

James Tanner

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #4 on: 8 May 2018, 11:10 am »
OK then something is amiss with the speakers (drivers or crossover or placement) in my opinion if you are getting out of control bass response.

is this something that recently happened?

james

Hoiman

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #5 on: 8 May 2018, 11:15 am »
Quote
is this something that recently happened?

No, it is with every speaker we have here. At the moment we have a pair of Kharmas DB7 and a pair of B&W 803 D3 in the house. The problem is on both speakers.
Even we have this on our own speakers, but they don't go that low and that's why you can't hear it on our ones.

James Tanner

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #6 on: 8 May 2018, 11:18 am »
No, it is with every speaker we have here. At the moment we have a pair of Kharmas DB7 and a pair of B&W 803 D3 in the house. The problem is on both speakers.
Even we have this on our own speakers, but they don't go that low and that's why you can't hear it on our ones.

Ok you got me other than placement of the speakers is wrong or the speakers are to large for your room and your room will not support very low bass without overloading the room due to serious standing waves.

Maybe post a picture of your setup?

james

Hoiman

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #7 on: 8 May 2018, 11:25 am »
Quote
Ok you got me other than placement of the speakers is wrong or the speakers are to large for your room and your room will not support very low bass without overloading the room due to serious standing waves.

It was also the first thing I was thinking of.

That is what I'm also told the shop owner but he thinks it's not. So this afternoon we will hear if he is right.
Now I know that the Bryston pre and end amp are good enough to handle this speakers I can tell him that also.


James Tanner

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #8 on: 8 May 2018, 12:26 pm »
It was also the first thing I was thinking of.

That is what I'm also told the shop owner but he thinks it's not. So this afternoon we will hear if he is right.
Now I know that the Bryston pre and end amp are good enough to handle this speakers I can tell him that also.

Ok please let me know how it turns out.

james

Hoiman

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #9 on: 8 May 2018, 12:28 pm »
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Ok please let me know how it turns out.

of course

James Tanner

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #10 on: 8 May 2018, 12:34 pm »
Bass issues in most rooms was one of the reasons when I was developing the Bryston Active Speakers that I decided to allow some EQ from 120Hz down as that is the area where most rooms need the help.

james

Hoiman

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #11 on: 8 May 2018, 05:52 pm »
The other pre amp (Esoteric C-03Xs) in combination with the end amp (Esoteric S-03), still does the same. So finally they think it's also a room problem.
Now we can work with that. Must say the Esoteric sounds a little bit better, but OK it cost 3 times more then the Bryston setup. But it isn't 3 times better ;-)

ec

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #12 on: 8 May 2018, 08:22 pm »
To determine the bass humps:

There are a ton of test tones you can download and rip onto a CD and use a Radio Shack SPL meter (old school)

And now software (REW) you can use to measure frequency with USB mics (new school)

There are also excellent resources based on your room dimensions assuming it is somewhat symetrical

https://www.harman.com/room-mode-calculator

Hoiman

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #13 on: 9 May 2018, 05:53 am »
Quote
There are also excellent resources based on your room dimensions assuming it is somewhat symetrical
https://www.harman.com/room-mode-calculator

I'm not sure how this works? But when I fill in my room dimensions I see a wave at 32Hz. The song I'm testing the lower frequecies with is "Hey now" from London Grammer.
This song goes to 32Hz and has a real problem.

So this excelsheet gives me where I can find/encounter problems in my room?

Anonamemouse

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #14 on: 9 May 2018, 08:12 am »
If you really want answers you'll have to have the room measured. I can not do that for you, but I know people that can. Not sure what they would ask for it though... They can also suggest improvements like bass traps and such.
Those I can build for you.

Hoiman

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #15 on: 9 May 2018, 08:26 am »
Quote
They can also suggest improvements like bass traps and such.

The whole living room is full of basstraps at the moment but nothing seems to work. At the moment I have a few speakers in the livingroom (Kharma, B&W and my own) for testing. The shopowner gave us a few basstraps. But because they aren't working he is looking for other solutions and I hope to hear from him today.
He also told me that he knows someone that can measure the room so he can see in which frequency it is going wrong. This guy also have solutions for roomcorrection.

Quote
Those I can build for you.
Already thanks.

James Tanner

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #16 on: 9 May 2018, 10:28 am »
The whole living room is full of basstraps at the moment but nothing seems to work. At the moment I have a few speakers in the livingroom (Kharma, B&W and my own) for testing. The shopowner gave us a few basstraps. But because they aren't working he is looking for other solutions and I hope to hear from him today.
He also told me that he knows someone that can measure the room so he can see in which frequency it is going wrong. This guy also have solutions for roomcorrection.
Already thanks.

Hi

How big is your room and what shape - maybe post a picture?

james

Hoiman

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #17 on: 9 May 2018, 10:31 am »
Quote
How big is your room and what shape - maybe post a picture?

The room is 5.4 meter width and one side of the room is 9 meter and the other side 12.6 meter. The height is around 2.65 meter.
The floor is from nature stone.
I have no picture.

James Tanner

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #18 on: 9 May 2018, 11:19 am »
The room is 5.4 meter width and one side of the room is 9 meter and the other side 12.6 meter. The height is around 2.65 meter.
The floor is from nature stone.
I have no picture.

So roughly 16 x 27 by 8 feet .

That's almost the same size as my room one - which is 17 x23 x 8.

That's a good size room and I am surprised you are having bass issues to the extent you are.  Anyway when you get the room tested it will tell you where the frquency peaks are - deal with them first as the ear hears peaks more than dips in response.  Also when you fix the peaks the the dips tend to come up in response. Also the "Q" of the dips and peaks enters into the equation because the broadness of the Q or the sharpness of the Q affects frequencies on either side of the bump or dip.

In my room for example I have a bump at 50Hz and a dip at 100 Hz - which I got rid of by using our active speakers and EQ-ing them out.

But for what its worth I have experimented with traps of all sorts and its a mixed bag because the size of trap you need to control lets say a 50Hz bump is very large and the size of trap increases exponentially as you go down in frequency.  Also, and this is just my opinion,  I find that too many traps starts to rob the room of its natural transient response and things start to sound too dead and lacks a sense of life.

If you notice when we do these audio shows you will never see me using room treatments.  We always get great sound and the reason is that our speakers are designed to take the room reflections into account - but that's a whole different story.

james

Anonamemouse

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Re: Help needed with SP2 explanation of shop owner.
« Reply #19 on: 9 May 2018, 01:38 pm »
I live just a few blocks away from Hoiman. Although I have not been to his place, my house is similar to his, and I have some weird issues as well. Dutch construction basically means all concrete. Floors, walls, ceilings. So no absorbtion whatsoever...
In my living room I have a few spikes at certain tones. Bass at about 40-45 Hz is strong at a certain point, while treble at about 13000-14000 Hz is strong just a few feet away. It's annoying...
Putting up some serious drapes helped a lot. And now that I am single again I am thinking about some sonic improvements, like a ceiling trap. Nobody will complain now.