[Hipper]

I have RM30Ms made by Brian before he discovered the digital crossover, bought in 2006. These speakers have not been changed in anyway since but still work well.

I'm considering going active as my next upgrade (perhaps using a DEQX) and was wondering if learning to mess around with the internal crossover (I've no experience of this), and actually doing it, would be worth the effort considering the speaker's age? Would I be better off looking for new, more suitable speakers?

And secondly, do those that bought the active version with the Behringer DCX still use and enjoy them, or have you moved on?

[Evoke]

I have RM30Ms made by Brian before he discovered the digital crossover, bought in 2006. These speakers have not been changed in anyway since but still work well.

I'm considering going active as my next upgrade (perhaps using a DEQX) and was wondering if learning to mess around with the internal crossover (I've no experience of this), and actually doing it, would be worth the effort considering the speaker's age? Would I be better off looking for new, more suitable speakers?

And secondly, do those that bought the active version with the Behringer DCX still use and enjoy them, or have you moved on?

http://pointillistic.com/vmps-audio/RM30.htm



Before you undertake the project - look at one you want to do as a minimum and a maximum. Work up a budget for each. It's a great speaker in a small footprint. Brian and I talked about this one for hours - I thought it was one of his more inspired designs.


So full range amp or bi-amp - the DEQX is incredible and flexible. You will assuredly get the best real world performance possible in your listening room. (Of course providing it is reasonably good acoustically.)


That said, before you do any internal work - you need to decide on your path. Personally, I'd bi-amp. Building a crossover that crosses really low is a pain on so many levels.


Then I'd pull the speaker apart and rebuild the crossovers one one of two ways. 1) Upgrade the caps, or 2) Redesign with higher slopes which improves transients, imaging and clarity. The latter is a big under-taking. You would most likely need to have this done for you. There are some great people out there. Figure close to $1000 for design and testing, then high quality parts  of about $400 per speaker. If you just change the caps on the stock crossovers you're most likely looking at $200 per speaker.


Now ... Brian did some ground breaking stuff back then. That mid was amazing then. But fast forward to today and production techniques have improved a lot. The mid I use is vastly superior than what Brian used then, and even that of the Infinity EMIM. That's not because either was bad - it's due to new production methods. So once you have decided on your budget course of action you can compare it to a new speaker.


Bi-Amping with cap upgrades will make the speaker exceptional. The stock slopes will create a warmer sound over upgrading to a new high slope crossover. That would be more accurate with increased dynamics. I've built with both - I like the sound of both but went with higher slopes in my designs for a number of reasons.


A lot of people are very attached to the VMPS product. At this point not comes down to budget and another consideration. If you do the mods I would think you're in love with it and expect to enjoy it for years. The ribbon diaphragm is easy to find and replace. Woofer surrounds can be replaced. But if you torch a woofer - finding one that is a direct drop in is challenging and it's best to replace ALL of them to assure performance. Same is true for the mid-planar. It's getting hard to find them.


In the end - it's your choice. Music is personal and whatever speaker you select will be your reproduction instrument. Most of all, have fun - and remember - the goal is to listen to music and not a speaker !!!  Good luck

[simon wagstaff]

I am sort of in the same situation with some RM2s. The crossover frequency to the neopanels is typically around 280Hz. My AV processor can do a sub crossover as high as 250Hz, likely with a steeper slope than what VMPS used. The RM2 just has a single woofer, the RM30 has multiple smaller woofers which will complicate things. I have a friend with. RM30s and even though he powers them with Bryston monologues there is no bass.

I would avoid the DQX, maybe update some caps in the kids and tweeter and get some subs. I just might have a pair of smaller vmps subs I will want to get rid of, depending on what happens with my RM2s.

Begs the question, what are using for a pre-amp and power amp?

[Hipper]

Thanks for the comprehensive replies.

I should add the my RM30Ms have Auricaps. My power amp is Son of Ampzilla, recommended at the time, and that is fed direct from my DAC which has a volume control.

I do love the speakers and still enjoy very much listening to them, but as pointed out, things have changed, in some cases, for the better. I should get out and about to hear what else there is about.

It is a good idea to factor in budgets but also to me having to learn operations, such as messing about with crossovers, that I feel uncomfortable with (mainly because I've never done it). I suppose one view might be to budget to replace the RM30Ms but before doing so, try to improve them on the lines described, and if I mess things up, well, I hope I learned something on the way.

[Evoke]

Thanks for the comprehensive replies.

I should add the my RM30Ms have Auricaps. My power amp is Son of Ampzilla, recommended at the time, and that is fed direct from my DAC which has a volume control.

I do love the speakers and still enjoy very much listening to them, but as pointed out, things have changed, in some cases, for the better. I should get out and about to hear what else there is about.

It is a good idea to factor in budgets but also to me having to learn operations, such as messing about with crossovers, that I feel uncomfortable with (mainly because I've never done it). I suppose one view might be to budget to replace the RM30Ms but before doing so, try to improve them on the lines described, and if I mess things up, well, I hope I learned something on the way.

Game changer post by you !!!  If the cabinets are good and the drivers are working - I would leave them alone. You have the VERY EXPENSIVE Auricap upgrade. They are still revered and spec'd by audiophiles today and damn they are $$$$$


About that Son of Ampzilla - Wonderful amp - some of Jim Bongiournos best work !!!  However, I don't think this is enough power for your speaker and it may be the weakest part of the chain. If you want to improve your sound and not spend a fortune take a look at a pair of NuPrime STA-9 amps bridged in mono for 290 watts per channel. I know this may sound like a lot - but it's not - I use 400/channel even with my smaller speakers - it's about damping, control and dynamics. I'm betting you will hear your speakers like never before.


Do you have the 10" woofer on the sides? Brian made them with and without. I think you can bi-wire with that - in that case you could use both STA-9s in stereo - one for the woof, the other for the top end.


As for speakers out there that you could replace the RM30 with, that's a pretty short list. It was a great value when it sold new.

[Hipper]

I thought the TRT's were the top cap upgrade.

I do have the 10" side woofer, and the two passive woofers in the base.

Thanks for the amp suggestion. I'll check it out if I can. I do have them bi-wired, although the Son of Ampzilla only has the standard number of binding posts, I of course removed the jumper cables on the RM30Ms. I thought it made a small improvement.

[Evoke]

I thought the TRT's were the top cap upgrade.

I do have the 10" side woofer, and the two passive woofers in the base.

Thanks for the amp suggestion. I'll check it out if I can. I do have them bi-wired, although the Son of Ampzilla only has the standard number of binding posts, I of course removed the jumper cables on the RM30Ms. I thought it made a small improvement.

OK - yes, the TRT caps are exceptional as well. That said - both they and the Auricap are both very well thought of and some of the most expensive caps out there.


Good news with the 10". I would definitely use 4 channels of amplification! Like I said, no disrespect to the SOA amp, some of the newer high powered amps will let you hear your RM30's like you've never heard them before!!!  At minimum - borrow some amps and you will laugh with joy like a school girl

[Hipper]

Have you any other amp recommendations please?

Is it better to use mono/bridged or bi-amp, or is it a case of just trying out?

Generally, what wattage would you suggest? I have a preference for solid state simply because I have no experience of tubes and don't really like the fuss involved. All the various classes of amp and other technical details I haven't really studied.

[Evoke]

Have you any other amp recommendations please?

Is it better to use mono/bridged or bi-amp, or is it a case of just trying out?

Generally, what wattage would you suggest? I have a preference for solid state simply because I have no experience of tubes and don't really like the fuss involved. All the various classes of amp and other technical details I haven't really studied.

I can only speak in some generalizations. Mono blocks are generally pretty great. They have very robust engineering, good power supplies, high current etc. With enough power - you can expect great full range performance.


Bi-amp and Bi-wire are different. With bi-wire you are still using the internal crossovers but instead of one amp powering the whole speaker, one does the lowest woofer and the other amp does everything above it. This reduces the demands on the amplifier so the bass load is managed more easily. It also allows one amp to focus on the top end of the speaker which often gets sucked dry by the woofer. When you bi-amp there is no crossover on the woofer or the bottom end of the mid-woofer(s). Speakers are typically built one way or another. If the 4 posts on the back of a speaker it's usually bi-wire. Sometimes there is a switch for bi-wire / bi-amp. It's usually clearly labelled on the back.


I place very high demands on my testing. I run Eddie and Ruby with single channel amps. That's the way they were designed to perform. I'm working on Alex and he will require bi-amping. The sub bass just places too much of a demand on the amp to share the load full range.


All that said, whatever your choice, bad amps run full range or bi-amp are still bad. I good mono block run full range should perform fine. Bi-wire is also a great option. So why do I say this?


Amp prices are NUTS!  I'm lucky and have collected a lot of amps over the years including Bryston, Audio Research tubes, some custom Class A stuff yada yada. If you read any of my diatribes you know that I want a lot for a little money. Mono blocks can cost a lot of money. A lot! Do I love them? Yes. But why spend $5000 per channel for amps when the speakers cost $3000 a pair? That's out of formula.


One of my favorite amps is the NuPrime K38. It's 8 x 200, or 4 x 400. It is a class A/D amp. It sounds great and has a reasonable price. That's a great combination. Beyond that, I'm sure the group can chime in with some of their favorites. If you want good sound that's easy. Open your checkbook. If you want cheap, well - it will sound it. If you want good sound and a reasonable price well then the list gets pretty short.


I hope some of this helps.

[Hipper]

Thanks. That's very helpful. Much appreciated.

I remember it was reported that at one CES Brian used two Son of Ampzillas to power one of his speaker pairs, but used them as monoblocks, with only one of the outputs on each amp being used to power each speaker. The other output had nothing connected. I was told this gave better sound then just one SoA.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56907.msg499994#msg499994

[Evoke]

Thanks. That's very helpful. Much appreciated.

I remember it was reported that at one CES Brian used two Son of Ampzillas to power one of his speaker pairs, but used them as monoblocks, with only one of the outputs on each amp being used to power each speaker. The other output had nothing connected. I was told this gave better sound then just one SoA.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=56907.msg499994#msg499994

You may enjoy this link:   https://www.sst.audio/new-products/ 


I did read an article about Brians trinaural display in Vegas - scroll down here:  http://pointillistic.com/vmps-audio/news.htm  He used 3 Ampzillas - not sons. The reference you note from an old forum post may refer to something different - not sure. 

[Hipper]

I'm going to trial this later in the month:

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/product-page/nord-one-se-up-nc500dm-stereo-silver

I'll let you know how I get on.

[nickd]

I heard that trianural setup at CES back in the day. Jim and Brian both had quite the imagination (Jim was a bit genus crazy too). Shocking headphone like clarity in the sweet spot. The room and people talking just went away and the music flowed.

Move your head 3 inches and woe, where did the magic go? Makes you wonder what is possible if you could get that laser like focus to follow your ears around the room. Someday....