A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa

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JoshK

A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« on: 10 Jan 2006, 04:30 pm »
I recently had the opportunity to visit Dr. Geddes in the greater Detroit area while spending the holidays with my wife's family.  I do not believe Dr. Geddes reads this forum, but I'd like to thank him and his wife for allowing me a great opportunity to hear his work in action.

Dr. Geddes's website can be found here, www.gedlee.com.  You can find out a little about his lengthy resume by poking around on his site.  However, most of us have probably heard Dr. Geddes's name when the topic of waveguides came up.  He has published many works in the JAES on the subject.  He has also written on distortion and human hearing and developed measured that better relate the two.  

Dr. Geddes has designed a speaker system based on his concepts named the Summa, as in Summa Cum Laude.  I had the opportunity to hear the Summa in both of Dr. Geddes's untreated living room two channel system, and his fully treated HT room both in two channel and multichannel.




I loved the dynamics of the Summas, never have I heard dynamics like these before. When we were listening at extremely high levels, it didn't sound that loud (Geddes ideas of distortion at work here?). I could think of no better HT/Rock/large-scale-orchestral speaker. These are pretty far from a typically audiophile 2-way.

Dr. Geddes played a live Cream dvd that was off the hook. We were playing at 110db (c-weighted) and there was zero compression what-so-ever. It really did sound like you were in the audience.  Large scale orchestral (Exotic Dances, Eijie Ouie, Ref Rec.) was played with major authority. Details were all there but not overemphasized, plenty of seperation but not dissected. Definitely a mid to rear hall perspective.

My own RM40s have a lot more dynamics and low end and "able to play loud without compression"-ness than most other audiophile speakers, but the summas were on a complete other level. Maybe this is why some still are entrounched in the hi-eff camp. I think Dr. Geddes said the Summa was ~97db/w.  This really reminded me of the Selah Arrays in terms of dynamics, lack of compression and low distortion.  The difference being point source versus line source.  

There was also no honking or aggressiveness like a typical Klipsch speaker would have.  In fact, Dr. Geddes mentioned that major pro audio corp (that I'll leave nameless) is in talks with him about his technology, as they have never been able to produce a horn/waveguide without the honking in well over 50 years of being in the business.   I believe that science really can benefit this hobby if we are willing to take a couple of steps back and look at what assumptions are in the current yardsticks.



Dr. Geddes is a non-believer in electronics. Upstairs in his 2 channel system in an untreated room (about as bad as mine) he had ~$200 in total electronics (sony changer into pioneer receiver iirc). Some cuts played on this system sounded quite good and surprising for such a bad room and mid-fi gear, while others had me scratching my head. I heard on a couple tracks played, some overblown midbass, which I am not sure was due to room, electronics or speaker tuning. Dr. Geddes commented that the tracks were poorly recorded, which is probably true, but I still haven't heard that problem on any other speaker I have listened to these tracks on.

Downstairs is another story altogether. Dr. Geddes has an excellent HT room, sound proofed, full treated to his specs and overall an excellent listening environment. I am seriously jealous of such a room. We listened to both 2 channel and multichannel material. I played a couple of the same tracks I had played upstairs, but not the really problematic track. I never noticed the midbass problem down in this room. Electronics down here are a HTPC into a Pioneer receiver.

I played a whole bunch of great tracks I use for testing systems and a few that the rave group uses at each GTG to make comparisons easier. Things sounded excellent overall. Plenty of depth of field perspective. Sound stage was reasonably wide for such a typical narrow room. Imaging was centered but not razor sharp IMO. Imaging was a bit better higher up than lower down in the vocal range, again IMO. The overall voicing of Dr. Geddes speakers was mid to rear hall (something like 3/4 back).

The midrange was there, plenty of details but not quite as pronounced as more audiophile speakers protray, particularly in the upper midrange. To me this made them sound a bit more natural, but definitely a bit different than a lot of what I am use to hearing a lot of. This could also be a pyschoacoustic affect of having more bass power at higher volumes than I am use to, it could also be that the 15" woofer is not as resolving in its upper range as a typical 6.5" two way monitor. This was one of those things that had me puzzled. I definitely didn't dislike it, but it was different. Not your typical jazz lover speaker.

Overall, I came away really wanting to experiment with the WG's more and also to try a hi-eff project at some point. I seriously loved the dynamics and lack of compression, it was a breath of fresh air.[/img]

JoshK

A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #1 on: 10 Jan 2006, 04:39 pm »
P.S. the speakers are available in just about any color and can be ordered sealed or ported.

couple of pictures of incomplete cabinets but help you see a little more detail.




Sorry for the lousy pictures.  I just got a digital SLR for xmas and I am still learning how to use it.  The speakers are a little hard to photograph, and the lighting was a bit tricky.

ctviggen

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A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #2 on: 10 Jan 2006, 04:40 pm »
Josh,

You got to meet The Man!  That's cool.  His book on audio transducers is outstanding, but requires a lot of math.  It's good to hear that he actually listens to music -- I think of him as a professor with knowledge but not necessarily a love of music.

JoshK

A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #3 on: 10 Jan 2006, 04:48 pm »
yes, he absolutely loves music.  He is also a pretty cool dude.  At the end, he, I and his wife were talking a lot of shop (mathematics/statistics).  It turns out that a lot of his work and research involves a lot of similar methods that my background is in.

ctviggen

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A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #4 on: 10 Jan 2006, 05:00 pm »
Josh,

What's your background?  I think any higher-level math major should be able to understand what he's doing.  My background is EE, but I emphasized signal processing, which is basically 100% math.

zybar

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A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #5 on: 10 Jan 2006, 05:04 pm »
Looks pretty cool!

Just chcked prices and they aren't cheap (roughly $5300/pair with stands) but it sounds like they would be worth what they cost.

Without a dealer network or audition period, I would think the chances of hearing a pair are pretty slim though.   :cry:

George

JoshK

A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #6 on: 10 Jan 2006, 05:17 pm »
Bob,

To answer your question.  Undergrad is statistics and applied math, masters in financial mathematics (pde, sde, numerical methods).  Yes, the level of mathematics in his works is more than digestable.  I just haven't had time to read all his works yet.  I have so much reading for my job I never seem to find the time.

What we were talking about in terms of methods was a little different that what he has published.  Most of what he is researching he hasn't written down anywhere, and uses some more laborous techniques.

goskers

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A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #7 on: 10 Jan 2006, 10:05 pm »
Josh,

Great to hear that you had the chance to hear the Summa's.  They have been on my list of 'want-to-hear' for quite some time.  His approach to sound reproduction really intrigues me.  Gedde's and Linkwitz really do a good job at leading the pack by breaking down seemingly unforseen walls.  

While I have ordered his transducer book I have not had great deals of time to study it.  I would love to look at the usage of WG's as well as hi-eff as well.  I am always open to hearing new designs especially when science and math are behind it.

LAL

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A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #8 on: 10 Jan 2006, 10:15 pm »
Josh,

What is Geddes using for center and surround and subs in the home theater system? Also if  this type of speaker interests you look at Pi Speakers for potential kits using 15" woofers and compression tweeters. I would love to hear a comparison between the Summa and  4Pi Professional with its JBL drivers and horn to see if the wave guide really is an audible improvement over the horn.  You are correct that the dynamic range of speakers using the pro drivers creates a sense of realism that is hard to match with convention drivers.

LAL

JoshK

A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #9 on: 10 Jan 2006, 10:30 pm »
LAL,

I haven't heard many horns, but the ones that I have heard, I've never liked for all the reasons people cite. Dr. Geddes explains that this is due to production of HOM (higher order modes) which the ear does not like.   Dr. Geddes has shown mathematically that the OS waveguide (one he uses) produces the least amount of HOMs and that the remaining HOM can be further reduced with his open cell foam insert.  This is basically paraphrasing what is already paraphrased on his website.  This is enough to have *unnamed pro audio corp* stand up and pay close attention.

Dr. Geddes uses another Summa for a center, while his sides were dipoles (normal mid-fi type) and his rears were direct radiating bookshelf speakers.  He used two subs, one located in the front corner near the ceiling, the other in the rear behind the couch.  Dr. Geddes said he like to space out the subs and also use different types of loadings, one being sealed, the other ported.

JoshK

A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #10 on: 10 Jan 2006, 10:37 pm »
Joel, funny you should mention Geddes and Linkwitz in the same sentence.  I had a quick chat with Geddes about Linkwitz and the difference in their approaches.  Geddes explained that the major difference in approach is based on mostly quite a difference in acceptance of starting assumptions.  Any mathematician will tell you the model is only as good as the assumptions you make.  

Linkwitz assumes you are listening at around 70db average with peaks around 90-95 iirc.  Geddes wants to allow for peaks up to 120db, more typically around 110db.  He too doesn't listen that loud all the time but wants to allow for it on occassion.  We were listening around 110db peaks and it really didn't seem that loud really.  I was surprised by this actually.  I think a lot of the difference is due to lack of compression, so that average levels are more tolerable with peaks being short lived.

gonefishin

A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #11 on: 11 Jan 2006, 04:44 am »
Hi Josh,

   Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the recent visit to Dr. Geddes's house.  One of these days I'd like to take a listen to the Summa speakers.

   I'm not sure if I'll take on a waveguide project or not...but it would be nice to compare and contrast any differences between the speakers.  If only I had more time...and money.

     Thanks again for your thoughts,
    dan

JoshK

A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #12 on: 12 Jan 2006, 01:50 am »
downstairs in the HT...


Dan Banquer

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Loudspeaker Compression
« Reply #13 on: 12 Jan 2006, 01:21 pm »
I think Josh has made a good observation on loudspeaker compression. I would also like to add that the room also plays a part in this, and that is it appears that you can only pump so much sound energyr into a room before
that starts to go non linear also. For those of us in smallish rooms, that's a real issue.
                     d.b.

goskers

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A Visit to Dr. Geddes: Summa
« Reply #14 on: 12 Jan 2006, 01:44 pm »
Yes, SL and Geddes seem to share a few common principles, the biggest one being to look at how a speaker interacts with a room.  It would be great if more commercial designs would follow this path.

My one gripe about the orion would be the fact that it is spl limited.  This limitation is on the woofers at one point and on the tweeter when the hp filter is on the woofers.  While loud enough 95% of the time there were the occasions where I wanted more.

I think Geddes and SL are attempting to reach a similar goal while taking different paths.  It is great to see that their expertise is being put to great use.