AudioCircle
Industry Circles => NuPrime Audio => Topic started by: ameger on 3 Feb 2017, 11:12 pm
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Wanted to let everyone know this upgrade for the STA 9 amplifier. I have two STA 9s in mono mode. I replaced the stock fuses with Synergistic Research Black Quantum Fuses. The fuses made a significant improvement to the sound. A more natural sound with a bigger soundstage than the stock fuses.
I was skeptical at first, and they are pricey, but well worth it in my opinion! It does take a while for the fuses to break-in and really shine- like 100+ hours.
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Interesting, I just got a pair to mono, where did you buy yours at?
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:o :o :o :o
Are there other fuse alternatives to Synergistics that aren't about $120/per fuse? My brain is having trouble reconciling this on my wallet. :(
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AMR Gold fuse from the UK. Less than $20 and since they actually manufacture gear under their brand name plus iFi I trust they test them in their own gear before bringing them to market.
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AMR Gold fuse from the UK. Less than $20 and since they actually manufacture gear under their brand name plus iFi I trust they test them in their own gear before bringing them to market.
Have you compared these to the stock fuses? The reviews I've read on the Synergistic BLACK seems to be really positive though.
But buying a pair (or more for other pieces of gear) is pricey. Especially when other expenses to nail the system down are beckoning. Priorities! :)
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I've compared them to the stock fuses in the Modwright LS-100, the Musical Paradise MP-D2, the PS Audio BHK 250 and the Nord One Up stereo amp.
The result was positive in all of them. When I think about it I will order one for the Nuprime DAC-10 and ST-10. That is about the extent of the amount I am going to spend on a fuse.
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Just wandering did you use the stock power cable or upgraded the power cable before change the fuse? And for the fuse, did you use T3.15A or T3A as T3A is not as common as the T3.15A, thanks!
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Bill
I've never used the stock power cords on any of the listed gear or the Nuprime gear. Yes I used the 3.15 amp.
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Thanks Jack! :)
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Bill
This is where I ordered from several times. Best prices I found.
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/
Also the "Create" ceramic fuses on Ebay are pretty good too.
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If you guys are going to spend ridiculous money on fuse, I will look into upgrading the fuse, if that make sense. We don't see the science behind high end fuse, but willing to keep an open mind.
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Jason
The "Create" brand fuses which ship from Hong Kong are a reasonably priced alternative at $10 shipped.
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Jason
The "Create" brand fuses which ship from Hong Kong are a reasonably priced alternative at $10 shipped.
Create Fuses here: http://www.partsconnexion.com/fuse_create_stnd_lrg.html (http://www.partsconnexion.com/fuse_create_stnd_lrg.html)
I found that any quality ceramic fuse will improve the sound over stock. Some audiophile fuse brands tune for a signature sound. And, direction of the fuse makes a difference.
Here are some short good articles on the subject. Written by PS Audio's president.
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/fuses/ (http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/fuses/)
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/double-edged-swords/ (http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/double-edged-swords/)
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Different maybe but why must it always end up sounding better...the elections don't care...in AC the electrons change direction every cycle. If I tell you my $50 fuses will solve all your issues ... I'll happily take your money.
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Different maybe but why must it always end up sounding better...the elections don't care...in AC the electrons change direction every cycle. If I tell you my $50 fuses will solve all your issues ... I'll happily take your money.
Did you read the links to the discussions? Why do certain tubes sound better than others? Same tube in theory. It could be like two same engines in two cars. One with good motor mounts. The other with cheap motor mounts. Same engines. Gasoline and spark plugs don't care.... the ride is not the same.
Anyone who ends up with a great sounding system has goofed along the line and ended up buying a few things he no longer wanted. But, its what he has after his "research and development" of his system that counts. Closed minds never grow. Open minds will make mistakes. One grows.
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What size fuses are in the STA9 amps, I can't remember... :scratch:....5 x 20, 6.3 x 32...
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If things such as a simple fuse make so much difference then why are they not part of the design and manufacturing process.
A complete engine or construction tubes which are different to a piece of wire...if 20mm of wire can make your equipment sound different and you can hear it then all the power to you and your bank account. I would be bitching to the manufacturer for short changing you in the parts and ultimate performance of your amp for the sake of a fuse or 2.
Anyway we all have our opinions and mine won't change yours or anyone else's so let's leave it at that.
And yes I have tried different fuses and even bypassed them totally just in case you are wondering.
Prove that after 100 hours of listening you can stake your life on it sounding better...why must it always be better, different perhaps? Because you think it better otherwise you just threw a chuck of money down the toilet. Even Jason I think will draw the line ...my mind is open but I have never heard such changes from a fuse in my life and I don't expect to hear any any time soon.
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If things such as a simple fuse make so much difference then why are they not part of the design and manufacturing process.
One reason would be that the majority of audiophile fuses have no agency testing approvals and could place the manufacturer in an unwanted liability situation.
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If things such as a simple fuse make so much difference then why are they not part of the design and manufacturing process.
Its like getting a car with OEM tires... you want sport? You have to add them. But, if you get a sports car? Then they better have them. High end companies are aware. For example, PS Audio uses audiophile fuses in their equipment.
A complete engine or construction tubes which are different to a piece of wire...if 20mm of wire can make your equipment sound different and you can hear it then all the power to you and your bank account. I would be bitching to the manufacturer for short changing you in the parts and ultimate performance of your amp for the sake of a fuse or 2.
Its all about the wire inside the fuse. There are vibrations that take place within a fuse. Ceramic fuses cancel some of the vibrational effect. Just like "tube dampers" are sold to place over tubes. The type of wire material will effect the sound as well.
Anyway we all have our opinions and mine won't change yours or anyone else's so let's leave it at that.
I have my ears. You have opinions?
And yes I have tried different fuses and even bypassed them totally just in case you are wondering.
Prove that after 100 hours of listening you can stake your life on it sounding better...why must it always be better, different perhaps? Because you think it better otherwise you just threw a chuck of money down the toilet. Even Jason I think will draw the line ...my mind is open but I have never heard such changes from a fuse in my life and I don't expect to hear any any time soon.
Its all about transparency. Without it? Be content. Power cables... interconnects... fuses. They all can make a difference. But, only if they can be detected.
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That liability issue is one of the reasons I am comfortable with a fuse developed and sold by an actual equipment manufacturer. If they will ship it with their own gear it has been tested. At just over $15 a piece not a great risk involved.
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I really believe there are things where effort goes a long way in making a better sound, but there is also so much 'audio voodoo' out there, that it gets really hard to decide where to really focus one's efforts (there's also a matter of budget, of course!).
But, for instance, this whole notion that a $300 USB cable is better somehow than a $3 cable, because by reducing the Jitter the DAC will have less effort in translating the audio, is, IMHO, nonsense. Either the DAC gets the signal, or it doesn't. Yes, it can get noisy signal, in which case it needs to work harder to 'decipher' the underlying code, sure... but once it does, its just 1 and 0s. They should sound the same!
So I understand if, AFTER an AMP, the powered signal needs to go through a fuse, yes, that may affect things. But if in the 1980s they figured out that by putting the fuse before the amp signal, as tells the story in your link, any manufacturer not doing that is simply not doing things right. And if, after that, they are relying on $0.50 fuses, then we should not buy from that company. If that is not the case, then changing the fuse should have as little effect as possible!
Lets try analogies, since you are using them. If you buy a $10.000 car, maybe stock tires may work. But if you buy a $80.000 Porsche, do you think it would be wise for them to ship with under-rated tires? No, they would ship it middle to high-end tires. If NuPrime values the quality of their sound (obviously they do!), are you telling me that the sound can get twice as much 'transparency' or 'openness' by changing something as silly as a Fuse? Then someone at the factory should get fired, IMHO.
Then there are those that would charge you a kidney and a lounge for what costs them $3 to manufacture, just because it "audiophile grade". Then if we buy that, we are the morons!
Have you done A-B tests? Blind tests? Or is this one of those: "I listened for a hundred hours with setup A, then changed to setup B, and after a 100 hours, I kept going back to wanting setup A". Because if it is not side by side, the ears can hear whatever they want. After 10 hours, a $30 Bluetooth speaker probably sounds to you the same as your $30.000 speakers with $20.000 amps. So can anyone share facts before spending $300 o a fuse?
This is really the low point of being an Audiophile, and a part I don't enjoy one bit. To have to be 24/7 'on guard' to filter the utter nonsense from the actual facts. :(
Rafa.
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What I discovered about fuses....
Even the cheap fuses will sound different when turned in an opposite direction... as long as each component in your system has been tested and are situated with the best orientation for their fuses. If half your system has its fuses oriented in the wrong direction? Introducing a new kind of fuse in one component may not be that easy to discern.
Even the inexpensive OEM fuse will normally come with two different kinds of markings on its end caps. One cap will give the rating. The other cap will contain symbols, or something different than the rating. So, the direction of the fuse can be determined that way. I only found one fuse that was marked the same on both caps. But, by listening after switching direction the correct orientation was easy enough to determine. I simply marked one end with a magic marker on the casing, not the metal cap. That way, if the fuse were dropped you can know which end would be what.
When a piece of equipment is wired correctly at the power cord socket, it should be the same fuse direction orientation for each component. Occasionally, one unit will not be wired correctly. That is why we should test for AC polarity for each audio component. When all things are equal? Then the fuses can be in each component be turned the same, and turned around to see if there is a difference in sound. I found that all the fuses in your equipment must be matched with the same orientation.
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Better check all your resistors are around the right way too, and the windings in the transformers used are also going to matter too :duh: Where does it stop? Oh yes your house wiring also better be checked and your neighbors too while you are it in case that might be causing some veiling.
Seriously I would rather spend my hard earned money on supporting the artists I listen to than the tweaks market.
Enjoy the music :D. Peace
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Better check all your resistors are around the right way too, and the windings in the transformers used are also going to matter too :duh: Where does it stop? Oh yes your house wiring also better be checked and your neighbors too while you are it in case that might be causing some veiling.
Seriously I would rather spend my hard earned money on supporting the artists I listen to than the tweaks market.
Enjoy the music :D. Peace
It stops when you stop caring... If you think of your audio system as just another appliance? Why bother?
It begins when you realize how much potential there is. And, then never quitting in having an open mind... willing to live and learn. Not too proud to make an occasional mistake so you can discover what works better. But? If you see audio as a toaster oven? It serves a simple purpose? Then why bother to bother those who are seeking a higher standard? Why do you want to be like a weight around their ankles? Why even come here? Really? Were you expecting to find something that will make a difference?
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As far as NuPrime is concern, we base our decision on science.
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As far as NuPrime is concern, we base our decision on science.
To be fair... Its based upon "known" science.
Fuses enter into a realm that no one has discovered how to measure for (other than ones ears). All I know is that different fuses make what I hear to change what I hear. And, the fuse directionality, even of the OEM fuses, make a difference. What those who do hear these differences need to learn? Is to let those who hear no difference to believe what they want to. Its makes me sad how some feel on this matter. But, not every system is the same which would allow to detect. And, our DNA is different. Not all can smell that aroma coming from the restaurant down the street. Do we measure for it when we can smell it and others can not?
To somehow measure scientifically for the aroma would only prove is that they are not sensitive to something they can not detect. Would that make their quality of life to be improved to be shown that something is really there, that they can not know is there? To find out might help them to become better in being able to live and let live, and stop being hecklers. But, proving it would not work to improve their experience otherwise.
Detecting fuse differences is not a life and death situation like color blind people needing to know their situation to work with traffic lights. So? Our ears tell us what science has yet been able to figure out how to measure. Live and let live! You can't hear any difference with that audiophile power cord you bought? Fine, I'll buy it from you at half price after its starts collecting dust in your closet. ;)
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:D
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If you guys are going to spend ridiculous money on fuse, I will look into upgrading the fuse, if that make sense. We don't see the science behind high end fuse, but willing to keep an open mind.
Just found this recently... from a manufacturer's blog. Interesting read... He faced the same dilemma.
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/fuses/ (http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/fuses/)
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I purchased a Synergistic Black fuse for my STA-9. Synergistic says that the fuse is directional. What "direction" is the current flow in the fuse holder?
Thanks, Chris
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Just found this recently... from a manufacturer's blog. Interesting read... He faced the same dilemma.
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/fuses/ (http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/fuses/)
Note that the fuse was in the speaker output of a power amplifier. Not in the line voltage AC supply nor in the DC power circuit.
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Rafa, I was a non believer in cables and fuses until I heard it for myself.
We did a shoot out of 4 usb cables with 6 people. We used 2 $600 cables (Wire World Platinum and a Lightspeed) a $120 Wire World Starlight Red and a cheap Pangea. I can tell you that there were significant differences in sound that no one was expecting. The Platinum sounded the best, very detailed with a bit of warmth and it was very liquid. The WW Red was muddy and dark in comparison. The Lightspeed was detailed but unbearably bright (which was surprising because the guy that owns the Lightspeed also owns the Platinum. In his system the Lightspeed is not bright and he prefers it and I have heard it in his system). The Pangea was the worst, very thin, tinny and bright sounding. When we added my Regen into the picture, it surprisingly made most of the cables sound similar except for the Pangea which still sounded awful. The Platinum still sounded the best though. My DAC is a $5000 Luxman. If it was not for my Regen I would sell the WW Starlight Red and fork over the ridiculous amount of $600 for the WW Platinum. Clearly differences are system dependent and my system is very responsive to changes.
I was also skeptical about fuses. I tried some AMR fuses in my Magnepans not expecting to hear a change. Boy was I wrong. They sounded bright. I gave them to a friend to try in his Magnepans and he had the same experience.
I can't give you any explanation as to why they sounded different but it was not a placebo effect as the differences were not subtle and were readily apparent in the first 30 seconds of play.
I also have 4 different pairs of XLR cables and they all sound different. Cardas Parsec- warm sounding, Bluejeans Cables-neutral to a bit bright with sibilants, AudioQuest Columbia 72v DBS- neutral sounding, no sibilants but slight decrease in bass. Belden 8402-very clear and detailed, neutral with a hint of warmth, minimal sibilants.
Now on the other hand, I do have various RCA IC's that all sound very similar and I have not heard differences with power cables and speaker cables although I have not tried that many or very expensive cables.
Other parts that we have found to make a difference are capacitors. I built a DIY Pass Labs preamp and there was a clear difference between the Clarity Caps and Obbligato Golds that I tried. I ended up using the Clarity's for more defined and powerful bass. In addition, I had my BAT VK-51se preamp recapped with stock caps. For the first 150 hours I regretted it because the sound was unbearably bright until they broke in.
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I purchased a Synergistic Black fuse for my STA-9. Synergistic says that the fuse is directional. What "direction" is the current flow in the fuse holder?
Thanks, Chris
AC = alternating current, meaning it flows both ways
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AC = alternating current, meaning it flows both ways
Yes.... but there is something else at work here. It can be heard, and demonstrated.
If one is using a system that veils the sound? Then who can know?
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Rafa, I was a non believer in cables and fuses until I heard it for myself.
We did a shoot out of 4 usb cables with 6 people. We used 2 $600 cables (Wire World Platinum and a Lightspeed) a $120 Wire World Starlight Red and a cheap Pangea. I can tell you that there were significant differences in sound that no one was expecting. The Platinum sounded the best, very detailed with a bit of warmth and it was very liquid. The WW Red was muddy and dark in comparison. The Lightspeed was detailed but unbearably bright (which was surprising because the guy that owns the Lightspeed also owns the Platinum. In his system the Lightspeed is not bright and he prefers it and I have heard it in his system). The Pangea was the worst, very thin, tinny and bright sounding. When we added my Regen into the picture, it surprisingly made most of the cables sound similar except for the Pangea which still sounded awful. The Platinum still sounded the best though. My DAC is a $5000 Luxman. If it was not for my Regen I would sell the WW Starlight Red and fork over the ridiculous amount of $600 for the WW Platinum. Clearly differences are system dependent and my system is very responsive to changes.
I was also skeptical about fuses. I tried some AMR fuses in my Magnepans not expecting to hear a change. Boy was I wrong. They sounded bright. I gave them to a friend to try in his Magnepans and he had the same experience.
I can't give you any explanation as to why they sounded different but it was not a placebo effect as the differences were not subtle and were readily apparent in the first 30 seconds of play.
I also have 4 different pairs of XLR cables and they all sound different. Cardas Parsec- warm sounding, Bluejeans Cables-neutral to a bit bright with sibilants, AudioQuest Columbia 72v DBS- neutral sounding, no sibilants but slight decrease in bass. Belden 8402-very clear and detailed, neutral with a hint of warmth, minimal sibilants.
Now on the other hand, I do have various RCA IC's that all sound very similar and I have not heard differences with power cables and speaker cables although I have not tried that many or very expensive cables.
Other parts that we have found to make a difference are capacitors. I built a DIY Pass Labs preamp and there was a clear difference between the Clarity Caps and Obbligato Golds that I tried. I ended up using the Clarity's for more defined and powerful bass. In addition, I had my BAT VK-51se preamp recapped with stock caps. For the first 150 hours I regretted it because the sound was unbearably bright until they broke in.
I have no idea what "cheap Pangea" you tried back then.. But this one is the best sounding one I have ever had in my very transparent system... I have Audioquest, and several high end hi end optical cables to also compare with. This new Pangea uses Cardas copper... Its relatively new. It utilizes a separate dual power and signal run USB configuration. http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGUSBXL (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGUSBXL)
(http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/pgusbxl_hand.jpg)
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I have no idea what "cheap Pangea" you tried back then.. But this one is the best sounding one I have ever had in my very transparent system... I have Audioquest, and several high end hi end optical cables to also compare with. This new Pangea uses Cardas copper... Its relatively new. It utilizes a separate dual power and signal run USB configuration. http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGUSBXL (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGUSBXL)
(http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/pgusbxl_hand.jpg)
I believe it was a freebie Pangea that came with a piece of audio gear that a friend bought. It was a $40 cable. It truly was awful sounding in my system. Even the Regen could not make it sound good. I am not trashing Pangea and you should not take it personally. Clearly the cables are system dependent as the $600 Lightspeed cable sounded awful in my system but sounds great in the owners system. I even bought and returned a $150 Straight Wire USBF usb cable and it sounded extremely bright and awful. It came highly recommended. I returned it to the Cable Co.
My whole point about my post was that cables and fuses can sound different and that they are system dependent. In some systems there may not even be an audible difference. And I do not have any thing against cheap cables. The $78pr Belden 8402 XLR's that I own sound better than a $400pr Cardas Parsec XLR's and AQ Columbia 72v DBS XLR's. I am going to switch over to all Belden 8402 Cables eventually.
Cheers,
Larry
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I believe it was a freebie Pangea that came with a piece of audio gear that a friend bought.
Well... that's a different story. I did not want others to think Pangea makes terrible sounding cables. They don't. The freebie? Who knows what that was really?
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Ok so any other thoughts? Synergistics say that my Quantum Black fuse is directional. But because this is AC it doesn't matter which way it goes into the fuse holder?
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Ok so any other thoughts? Synergistics say that my Quantum Black fuse is directional. But because this is AC it doesn't matter which way it goes into the fuse holder?
This tells you that such a theory is not true...ITS DIRECTIONAL... (http://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/19/001/387/373/DV020_Jpg_Jumbo_330266.744_110v.jpg)
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So for my STA-9, is the direction in the fuse holder from outside the amp to in or inside the amp to out.
Thanks,
Regards Chris
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So for my STA-9, is the direction in the fuse holder from outside the amp to in or inside the amp to out.
Thanks,
Regards Chris
It will be the same for all STA-9's. But, I do not know with that fuse. You will need to tell by ear.
I would let it burn in for a while.. Just listen to it for maybe a month. After being accustomed to what you are hearing.... and with one of your favorite recordings, then try flipping it. But first become very well acquainted accustomed to what it sounds like one way.
If its brand new it needs to burn in... I think that fuse needs about 100 hours. But the good thing about burning in fuses is all you need to do is just leave the unit turned on 24/7. You do not have to be playing music to burn in a fuse at the power inlet.
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This tells you that such a theory is not true...ITS DIRECTIONAL...
Um... just because a meter can tell you that wires are hooked up incorrectly does not mean that AC current is directional.
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AC power is non-directional and audio signals (low-level, line-level and speaker) are non-directional AC as well.
DC power supply sections (rectified AC or battery power) would be directional, and of course one could experiment with the orientation of a non-directional device (fuse) that might be used in them. You would also then want to make sure that any point-to-point wiring that might be used in the DC power section of the component was also installed in the appropriate direction.
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AC is not directional..... Something in the flow is, though. What it is?
I have a vintage Namiki DF-100 direction finder that was touted years ago in Stereophile - or Absolute Sound. It lets you know which plug orientation if the optimal one. It was a tweak that was popular while we still had two pronged AC audio equipment. It was repeatable and sounded better when the correct AC orientation was determined for all components in the chain. It was one of my earliest tweaking experiences.
This link tells you how to determine the correct AC plug orientation using a VOM... I have tried this method as well. It is demonstrable and repeatable. https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/determining-proper-ac-polarity/ (https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/determining-proper-ac-polarity/)
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This link tells you how to determine the correct AC plug orientation using a VOM... I have tried this method as well. It is demonstrable and repeatable. https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/determining-proper-ac-polarity/ (https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/determining-proper-ac-polarity/)
Holy crap the link actually suggests to change the polarity of the outlet... DO NOT DO THIS.
Also, the live line can also likely be checked with somethings like this: https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.non-contact-voltage-tester.1000664603.html
While *technically* if you only have a two-prong plug then it doesn't matter on the orientation because the circuits within only care about voltage difference between the wires and current will flow either way. HOWEVER, the reason for proper orientation and later the addition of the safety ground is that when something screws up, the neutral and ground lines are on the chassis side of the device, which means if you-the-operator somehow become the conduit to ground, nothing bad happens. The circuit still doesn't care which is which, but your body certainly does.
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Holy crap the link actually suggests to change the polarity of the outlet... DO NOT DO THIS.
I agree. As long as the AC outlet was wired correctly. That is why APC UPS units check for correct AC wiring. Some were not hooked up correctly.
But it proves a point. The argument is that AC has no direction? That problem right there tells us something is not being seen correctly.
I know a technician who said he has seen several manufacturers who end up wiring their components connection AC backwards. I think in the USA we may call it AC phase. The terms polarity and phase get confused often.
I personally do not desire to get bogged down in technical terms when empirically you get positive and negative audio effects by simply doing something.. and using a technically wrong explanation.. Its like the old argument that digital is only about pluses and minuses.
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But it proves a point. The argument is that AC has no direction? That problem right there tells us something is not being seen correctly.
The circuit technically only cares about the voltage difference between the two wires. Current flows both ways in both wires, that part is still true.
However, a potential source of noise/interference is the electric fields generated. Ideally the wires with high and/or alternating voltage are kept confined in tight controlled lines, and everything else is kept at ground to minimize and shield. If you accidentally flip your wires, the circuit for the most part doesn't care and current still flows both ways in both wires. However, you'll likely also be generating a lot more electrical noise.
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Electrical noise is the issue. What ever is causing it to be abated when the correct plug orientation is determined is for the engineers to figure out.
Correct plug orientation effects the sound quality. As well, as incorrect. I like to keep away arguments over words when what is being heard can be repeated and demonstrated.
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Because a component's power transformer is wound asymmetrically with respect to the chassis, there is more leakage noise current from one terminal of the transformer than the other. Skilled circuit designers know this and assure that the power line Neutral is connected to this transformer terminal. However you can not do this by swapping the power line Hot & Neutral. It has to be done internally after the fuse and on/off switch.
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Because a component's power transformer is wound asymmetrically with respect to the chassis, there is more leakage noise current from one terminal of the transformer than the other. Skilled circuit designers know this and assure that the power line Neutral is connected to this transformer terminal. However you can not do this by swapping the power line Hot & Neutral. It has to be done internally after the fuse and on/off switch.
On one German made unit I did that to. I reversed the cables after the fuse and switch. I told the manufacturer about it. With one power supply I got on Ebay from Singapore I was not so lucky. It was prefabricated and all the parts were made to fit together. I could reverse the power cord but realized that the fuse would be on the wrong terminal... I contacted the manufacturer. He seemed not to care too much. Most likely, he probably figures most people would never know what to look for.
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Rafa, I was a non believer in cables and fuses until I heard it for myself...
Thanks for your perspective on the matter. I am always willing to be proved wrong, but given that I haven't got the money to pay for a $600 USB cable, two $2000 balanced cables and $2000 to connect the speakers, plus power cables and fueses for other $3000, perhaps it plays to my interests that I don't believe they will make a difference! LOL! Call it wishful thinking!
But now seriously, I would gladly do some tests to actually see if there is or not a placebo effect. The few tests I was able to do, proved them to be so: the changing of lower and upper bindIng posts on the speakers, and the 'beaks' to absorb vibration and 'completely change the sound color'.
They both proved to be wild goose chases. So I'm 0 for two on the sound voodoo realm.
I don't want to sound harsh, I just want physics or common sense to actually support the claims made by designers / sellers of equipment. I actually applaud approaches like yours where you test and validate instead of just spending (or wasting?) money. You know which worked best for you, and that is really great.
As for me, I have not a $40 'cheap' cable on my system, I have $1 one. Literally paid $1 for it where they sold the RPi3 cases. It's sending 1s and 0s. So if some one tells me about jitter, sure, I believe that. But the DAC is able to decode those 1 and 0s, so what information is kept on the $600 cable? Which 1s represent the clear highs or the deep bass on the music that is so much better preserved on other cables?
I'd agree that a better cable could prevent pops, or clicks, or hum passed as current via the 5v line. But if music is 'in sync' and sounding, really are there 'better' 1 and 0 streams of the same string of values? I can't wrap my mind around that.
Same goes for anything behind the analog processing, like power cables and fuses. Analog cables, on the other hand, could be prone to noise, or better fit to carry specific wave lengths which would affect sound. That I could agree on. I'm still not paying $2000 for that difference.
Maybe I'm just thick. I just want to know the science behind things and every time someone tries to sell me air, I get suspicious.
Thanks again for sharing your research,
Rafa.
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Note that the fuse was in the speaker output of a power amplifier. Not in the line voltage AC supply nor in the DC power circuit.
That was about how they solved the problem with speaker output fuses.... But the next thread covered AC power line fuses as well.
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/glass-tombs/ (http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/glass-tombs/)
FWIW.... PS Audio products all come with audiophile fuses as stock. For a while they even sold their own audiophile fuses at pretty low prices... I found out when I contacted them asking about a replacement fuse for the DAC I owned at that time. They sent me a few the next day to make sure I had a replacement if ever needed. Needless to say. They were not glass. They were ceramic and were gold capped. Put one of them in a Nuprime HPA9 because it uses the same value, and it improved the sound instantly.
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But now seriously, I would gladly do some tests to actually see if there is or not a placebo effect. The few tests I was able to do, proved them to be so: the changing of lower and upper bindIng posts on the speakers, and the 'beaks' to absorb vibration and 'completely change the sound color'.
They both proved to be wild goose chases. So I'm 0 for two on the sound voodoo realm.
I don't want to sound harsh, I just want physics or common sense to actually support the claims made by designers / sellers of equipment. I actually applaud approaches like yours where you test and validate instead of just spending (or wasting?) money. You know which worked best for you, and that is really great.
As for me, I have not a $40 'cheap' cable on my system, I have $1 one. Literally paid $1 for it where they sold the RPi3 cases. It's sending 1s and 0s. So if some one tells me about jitter, sure, I believe that. But the DAC is able to decode those 1 and 0s, so what information is kept on the $600 cable? Which 1s represent the clear highs or the deep bass on the music that is so much better preserved on other cables?
IMHO... until you get better cables? Any other kind of tweak will be wasting your time. You won't be able to hear it.
The first place I would tweak would be the cables before anything else. The 1 and 0's theory is bunk. For, no two DAC's sound the same. And, they sound different as different quality USB cables are switched to . If your interconnects are poor quality? Getting a eight hundred dollar USB cable will not sound good. For no cable is an island unto itself. The weakest link in your audio chain will nullify its strongest.
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That was about how they solved the problem with speaker output fuses.... But the next thread covered AC power line fuses as well.
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/glass-tombs/ (http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/glass-tombs/)
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What is it in that page that we are interested in? Now SoundMind did make some good comments.
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I went to an earlier page "High-end audio pie" and it was engineering nonsense.
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What is it in that page that we are interested in? Now SoundMind did make some good comments.
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I told you it was different about...
You said...
Note that the fuse was in the speaker output of a power amplifier. Not in the line voltage AC supply nor in the DC power circuit.
Here again.. My response was about what you said was not mentioned. For it was mentioned in the next thread.
That was about how they solved the problem with speaker output fuses.... But the next thread covered AC power line fuses as well.
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/glass-tombs/
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The only thing of interest in any of those 'psaudio' pages was putting the audio output fuse in the feedback loop. But I recall others also doing that way back when. So how many of the fuses in these 2017 fuse threads are placed in the power amps audio output?
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The only thing of interest in any of those 'psaudio' pages was putting the audio output fuse in the feedback loop. But I recall others also doing that way back when. So how many of the fuses in these 2017 fuse threads are placed in the power amps audio output?
Not interested in that. I listen with an ST10. Its the AC IEC input fuses that are easy to change and make a nice difference if your system allows for it to be heard. That's all. If I had an amp with a power output fuse I would concentrate on that. I once had a vintage amp set up that way. Its a shame that this issue was not understood at that time.
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You should stop reading those 'psaudio' pages. They have so many basic electrical errors, that it's easy to get confused.
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You should stop reading those 'psaudio' pages. They have so many basic electrical errors, that it's easy to get confused.
I think you're the one causing me confusion in this case.
My ears do not confuse me.
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My ears do not confuse me.
Ears are quite reliable. It's the translation in the brain that provides confusion and obfuscation.
45% of audiophiles hear a difference when there is none and 45% hear no difference when there is one. The remaining 10% are only accurate 50% of the time. ;)
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Ears are quite reliable. It's the translation in the brain that provides confusion and obfuscation.
45% of audiophiles hear a difference when there is none and 45% hear no difference when there is one. The remaining 10% are only accurate 50% of the time. ;)
I used to sell audio. I watched certain salesmen telling customers what to listen for. Those people should not be the rule for those who can hear. Especially musicians (like myself) who know what real music sounds like.
I could run a 'fair test' for listeners where they would find themselves angry for what they were subjected to before as the means to know what sounds good. Its like exposing fake news with truth. Certain things will be heard if demonstrated in a right way. Not in some rushed way in a room that is not ones own.
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I think you're the one causing me confusion in this case.............................
True, psaudio and electrical engineering don't mix very well.
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True, psaudio and electrical engineering don't mix very well.
Unless you educate us sir? What's your point? You are not contributing anything but razzing from the sidelines... I am not here to promote another brand of audio, but you keep pushing in that direction. I suggest you find some other thread to fill in with your very helpful tips to replace the pseudo helps.
Learn to be helpful.
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Not interested in that. I listen with an ST10. Its the AC IEC input fuses that are easy to change and make a nice difference if your system allows for it to be heard. That's all. If I had an amp with a power output fuse I would concentrate on that. I once had a vintage amp set up that way. Its a shame that this issue was not understood at that time.
I own and ST10 as well.
did you change the fuse? which one have you tested?
i replaced a lot of fuses in the past. i am not sure i have ever heard a difference ....
now i just invert the phase sometimes.....
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I own and ST10 as well.
did you change the fuse? which one have you tested?
i replaced a lot of fuses in the past. i am not sure i have ever heard a difference ....
now i just invert the phase sometimes.....
I have tried several fuses. Not all were expensive. Each one caused a change in what I heard. And, all sounded different according the direction they were placed in the holder. One way does sound right. The other in comparison does not.
Bussman ceramic I believe cost me about 75 cents. The next one up is the Schurter Audio fuse. I think that cost me only a few bucks. I am presently using a Hi-Fi Supreme Tuning fuse. Its lends itself to a fuller, yet detailed sound. Again, if I were listening with different interconnects, power cords, etc... I am not sure how much of a difference I would be hearing. The speakers I use (and some others I have had) allow me to hear plainly differences. FWIW...
I believe not everyone has a system set up that will allow for differences to be easily heard. I believe that is why some folks mock the idea.
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Just took JackD's recommendation and put in an order for the AMR fuses for my equipment including my STA-9. I will update once I have had a chance to play around with them and form an opinion.
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I also ordered Littelfuse ceramic and Schurter ceramic. All coming from overseas, so it could be weeks/months. :popcorn:
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While you guys are experimenting with fuses?
What kind of power cords are you using? BOTH fuses and cords can make a difference that will surprise/perplex you. I tried several fuses and have decided on the Hi-Fi Supreme tuning fuse in my ST-10. I heard the improvement and stayed ever since... And, I did try even more expensive one that I returned. Yet, power cords can be even a bigger difference. Its all like having a winning team that we put together.
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While you guys are experimenting with fuses?
What kind of power cords are you using? BOTH fuses and cords can make a difference that will surprise/perplex you. I tried several fuses and have decided on the Hi-Fi Supreme tuning fuse in my ST-10. I heard the improvement and stayed ever since... And, I did try even more expensive one that I returned. Yet, power cords can be even a bigger difference. Its all like having a winning team that we put together.
I have a fair selection of power cords. The irony is, I didn't find as much of a difference switching out cords on the NuPrime gear as I had found on other brands. The one thing I know is that they don't take kindly to thick, stiff and unwieldy cords. I will try different ones out again once I get the fuses, as certain fuses with certain cords may be "too much of a good thing" in one way or the other.
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Don't play with expensive power cord or fuse. Get the Pure AC-4 and you will see the improvement right away.
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Jason ...
Will the Pure AC 4 eliminate the need for using a shielded power cord with say, the ST-10? The ST-10 came with a power cord with a ferrite choke. Can a straight cord then be used?
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Jason ...
Will the Pure AC 4 eliminate the need for using a shielded power cord with say, the ST-10? The ST-10 came with a power cord with a ferrite choke. Can a straight cord then be used?
Yes, but it is still better to use the factory supplied power cord with ferrite choke (hmm, may be we should sell this accessory) because the ferrite choke helps to reduce the EMI which radiates out from the power cord. The AC filter (others called it the fancy name of power conditional) does the clean up of the AC, so if the power cord act as antenna to receive EMI from other household or nearby devices, the Pure AC-4 does the filtering before AC is supplied to the 4 outlets. Between the Pure AC-4 and Nuprime devices, it is still best to use factory supplied power cord. We are an engineering company, we solve problems that can be measured. Fancy AC power cord with exotic plating and shielding might address minute inteference but we need to eliminate the main source of problem, which comes from common AC circuit in the home.
From Wikipedia:
"Ferrite beads prevent electromagnetic interference(EMI) in two directions: from a device or to a device.[1] A conductive cable acts as an antenna – if the device produces radio frequency energy, this can be transmitted through the cable, which acts as an unintentional radiator. In this case the bead is required for regulatory compliance, to reduce EMI. Conversely, if there are other sources of EMI, such as household appliances, the bead prevents the cable from acting as an antenna and receiving interference from these other devices. This is particularly common on data cables and on medical equipment.[1]"
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Jason, I’m very interested in buying the Pure AC-4 but can’t find a place in the US that sells them. I’ve check the vendors listed on you site and none shown the Pure AC-4 as an available product
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Use John Casler and you’ll get it fast! If you need his email or phone, send me a pm. He is THE man.
John’s email: bioforce_inc@hotmail.com
He is in LA. No bs, just great service and a truly nice guy.
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Thank you!
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Don't play with expensive power cord or fuse. Get the Pure AC-4 and you will see the improvement right away.
But $795 vs $1.25. And the cords I already own, plus I do make my own too.
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Jason, I’m very interested in buying the Pure AC-4 but can’t find a place in the US that sells them. I’ve check the vendors listed on you site and none shown the Pure AC-4 as an available product
Pure AC-4 is just shipping today :D
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But $795 vs $1.25. And the cords I already own, plus I do make my own too.
Don't give up the cords....
Improving the quality of AC is one matter. It should be done.
Yet, consider the power cords to be benevolent "tone controls." For on the right kind of systems power cords do definitely change what is heard. If you have such a system that offers that kind of transparency, changing a power cord will change what is heard. To say it will not, is a confession that one either has bad hearing, or a system that lacks transparency needed.
Playing with certain cords makes everything smooth and sweet in an unrealistic way.... That system will be no good to experiment with fuses and cords as long as certain cords remain influencing the sound.
Good cords will allow for you to hear the benefits of what a good AC conditioner can do. So, its a win-win when you keep an open mind. One compliments the other.
A while back while I was listening with a DAC 10 I tried a "More than a Fuse -Platinum." Everything sounded pleasantly rich and full and in a very realistic detailed way. But, I was forced to remove it. Why? My apartment neighbor gave a loud knock on my wall because of the density of the bass it produced. I said "density." Not loudness. Go figure.
There is much to learn. Not everything can be measured because they do not yet know what they need to measure for.
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Don't give up the cords....
Improving the quality of AC is one matter. It should be done.
Yet, consider the power cords to be benevolent "tone controls." For on the right kind of systems power cords do definitely change what is heard. If you have such a system that offers that kind of transparency, changing a power cord will change what is heard. To say it will not, is a confession that one either has bad hearing, or a system that lacks transparency needed.
Playing with certain cords makes everything smooth and sweet in an unrealistic way.... That system will be no good to experiment with fuses and cords as long as certain cords remain influencing the sound.
Good cords will allow for you to hear the benefits of what a good AC conditioner can do. So, its a win-win when you keep an open mind. One compliments the other.
A while back while I was listening with a DAC 10 I tried a "More than a Fuse -Platinum." Everything sounded pleasantly rich and full and in a very realistic detailed way. But, I was forced to remove it. Why? My apartment neighbor gave a loud knock on my wall because of the density of the bass it produced. I said "density." Not loudness. Go figure.
There is much to learn. Not everything can be measured because they do not yet know what they need to measure for.
Oh, I agree. I have a lot of name and boutique cords here (ESP The Essense, Oyaide, Furutech, Supra Lo-Rad, Wireworld Stratus, PS Audio, etc.). Those are just some of the cords I own, plus I experiment with my own designs.
It's all about system wide synergy. The neighbor knocking is very interesting.....not only could you tell the difference, so could he - and he couldn't even hear it clearly! So much that is not known about how the way electricity from the wall can affect the propagation of sound waves from the transducers. But that suggests that something is occurring that is currently not quantifiable. I believe in science and the scientific method, but I also believe that science itself becomes limiting if one only believes that unless something can be measured with currently existing devices, it is pure placebo effect and not real.
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My point is to focus on the primary effect. Instead of buy 5 very expensive power cord, get a good AC filter and rely on the factory cord. You might find that once you have a good AC filter, the cord doesn't matter anymore.
By the way, I am curious some of you should already have top of the line power conditional , so perhaps I get you a loaner Pure AC-4 to compare.
Or those of you with expensive AC cord but no power conditional.
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My point is to focus on the primary effect. Instead of buy 5 very expensive power cord, get a good AC filter and rely on the factory cord. You might find that once you have a good AC filter, the cord doesn't matter anymore.
The factory cord does not provide the detail needed to hear all that can be gained.; A good audiophile power cord should make the AC filter's benefits more evident. I have a very high quality AC conditioner. One I could not afford if I did not find one used for sale. Its one of the very best. I hear power cord changes and fuse changes.... and music with clarity.
Using stock cords that typically comes with equipment homogenizes the sound. It might be pleasant in a dulling respect as long as one has no idea what potential there is in what can be obtained.
Some engineers have a hard time with this side of audio because its not known what to measure for. And, while using stock cords you could most likely switch fuses and be not able to hear any differences because the stock power cords blur what is heard.
By the way, I am curious some of you should already have top of the line power conditional , so perhaps I get you a loaner Pure AC-4 to compare.
Or those of you with expensive AC cord but no power conditional.
Since you mentioned it. This is what I have.. https://audiorevelation.com/products/audience-adept-response-ar6-power-conditioner/ (https://audiorevelation.com/products/audience-adept-response-ar6-power-conditioner/)
I was also able to hear differences with cords and fuses while using a Furman AC conditioner.
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My point is to focus on the primary effect. Instead of buy 5 very expensive power cord, get a good AC filter and rely on the factory cord. You might find that once you have a good AC filter, the cord doesn't matter anymore.
By the way, I am curious some of you should already have top of the line power conditional , so perhaps I get you a loaner Pure AC-4 to compare.
Or those of you with expensive AC cord but no power conditional.
Would love to try an AC-4. PM sent.
Cheers,
Scott