[20q]

I'm looking to get myself into the world of hi fi. After going to dealers I was told by two of them that the volume level that I listen to is too low for the speakers to work as they were intended. I'd like to spend between $1,500 - $2,000 for the speakers. I'm willing to play the used market lottery. I asked the dealer about single driver speakers and he said that in order to get a good one you have to spend a lot of money. So taking in account my lower volume listening and my price range, Am I better off with multi driver or single driver speakers? Any recomendations?

What are your thoughts on the following? How effective and easy to use are these?
1. Subwoofer
2. Amp with bass boost control - I was told they don't really make these much anymore.
3. EQ adjustment from my computer

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to help. 

[apocalypseon]

I could name drop happily,but i really feel,at your budget,you should quite easily find just about anything in the single-driver loudspeaker category.Even new.There's so many nice people right here in ac putting up their Omega Speakers.Everyone sings praises of these.
Or if your open to diy, you'd find nigh any type of exotic expensive drivers. Google. Craigslist. audiogon.Keep an eye open & ask more knowledgeable members around(also someone with first-hand experience with single-driver speakers).I'm merely a wannabe.

[Russell Dawkins]

I think you can best capitalize on your taste in quiet listening by buying a speaker with refined sonic characteristics where the maximum loudness capability has been intentionally sacrificed.
A few that come to mind at your price point would be the new ACI Saphire XL2 ($2000, but needs a stand), the Totem floorstanders and this interesting kit or built floorstander from England that mirrors the design of the classic Dynaco A25 with a wide range 10" driver covering the bulk of the range:
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/info_WD25T.html.
I would then read up on the Fletcher Munson effect and apply whatever bass and treble boost was necessary with any one of a number of equalizers - you could even try to find one of those Yamaha amplifiers of the 70's that had a built in continuous loudness control which applied a continuously changing bass and treble boost as you lowered the volume.
Perhaps if you were more specific about the size and shape of speaker you could tolerate, whether it could be stand mounted, if you ever want to play loud and whether WAF was a factor in the decision we could be more specific in our recommendations.
Good luck!

[hatehifi]

I make no effort to conceal my enthusiasm (meanwhile going on sixth year), for Zu Audio products in general and certainly for your speaker. It would only pertain to pedigree and many names would only be known to some but one speaker I've owned and listened to for a decade was the Celestion SL600 (small monitors on substantial stands - cost the better part of what the speakers did). I've owned Zu's Druid IV, Credenza, MiniMethod sub, and now their Essence.

The Essence was reviewed in the October issue of Stereophile. I concur that despite its new price of 'only' $3,500 - it belongs to the 'best' that money can buy. I have seen the Essence for sale at a price point within your means - but such offers don't stay on the market more than a day or two.

As Alternative is one of the post January '08 made Druid IV speakers. This as well as the Essence do not need a sub for accurate, deep bass (~ 40 Hz, resp. ~30 Hz). Third choice is prior 01/08 Druid IV and forth, the Credenza (borderline call if sub is 'needed'), and last, their Tone (if you can find a MiniMethod fine but avoid other sibs as they will only 'smear' -slow down- Zu's full rangers).

If you can't afford Zu's own speaker wires, try Mapleshade Golden Helix and do afford Zu's ICs [and DIY power chords, e.g.].

As amp I strongly suggest the Serbian Dayens Ampino (two input - get the capacitor upgrade) somewhat above the outstanding Chinese MiniWatt (one input), on the Zu.

Lastly, you mentioned PC. By all means make the effort to audition the HRT Music Streamer+ (and then go ahead with the Entreq Discover USB IC).

If you are diving into vinyl (I hope), then go for Promitheus' Phono, Zu's DL-103 and a modified Lenco L75 (as DIY, see Lenco Heaven, e.g.).

Pleased to have an opportunity to cry out about these stupendous offers and wish I had had them even as little as five years ago (45 year-long hobby).

[JLM]

Yes, in order to give good advise we need to know your musical preferences, room size, budget, any ancillary equipment you already have, any decor limitations, and just how loud do you typically listen.

A single driver design should work great for you.  Most wide bandwidth drivers have limited x-max (peak vibrational travel) and so somewhat limited sound pressure level (volume, loudness).  The coherence of the single driver coupled with the direct connection between driver and amp made simple by using a single driver helps with imaging/soundscape, nearfield listening, and low volume dynamics (the instant range of quiet to loud passages).  Not having a crossover, multiple drivers, or a mix of different drivers eliminates phasing errors while helping with resolution (detail) as well as imaging (3D projection of position, size, shape of each performer/instrument).

With single driver designs the driver itself has no place to hide.  It is the heart and soul of the speaker, so its selection is critical.  As a rule of thumb smaller drivers have better treble dispersion, larger ones do more bass and are more efficient.  Many wide bandwidth drivers (typically those that are 6 inch diameter and larger) use whizzer cones (small unsupported cones located in front of the main cone) to extend treble response.

Single driver designs almost always have limited range of frequency response (lack of foundational bass or extreme treble).  You're right to ask about EQ, but note that EQ can only help a little.  Those nasty laws of physics dictate what is possible.  Deep bass is almost always the primary challenge to single driver designs, but that's where use of a subwoofer really comes in.

Those same laws say smaller cabinets are less efficient and/or produce less bass, but keep in mind that floorstanders don't take any more floor space than standmounts.  And different cabinet designs produce more bass per cubic foot.  At the inefficient end are sealed boxes and horns with ported designs, pipes, and transmission lines at the other.

Louis at Omega Speakers is a great guy and does fantastic work.  His designs fall into the more efficient camp and his drivers are well respected.  You'll pay a bit more for the drivers and his workmanship.  His designs tend to stay a bit small compared to many other single driver designs as he is sensitive to shipping costs and hazards.  There's a nice thread currently going here at Audio Circle regarding his new standmounts (the Sticks).

[chrisby]

Add one more voice to the chorus of fans of single driver designs.

There is to my mind an absolute embarrassment of choices of excellent performing products on the market these days, particularly if you're at all comfortable with woodworking tools or have a buddy/relative who is. You can easily  DIY something for as little as $300 (to as much as you can imagine)  that can provide hours of toe-tapping, silly-a$$ grinning musical enjoyment.

It's been my own experience that low to moderate listening levels, (i.e under 80dB) is exactly where a high efficiency single driver system excels.

No doubt there will be as much "conversation" and advice from contributors to this and other forums regarding the merits of any particular manufacturer of drivers, or enclosure topologies (we all have our personal favorites, and some would say axe to grind - so be it) as on any other subject you could elect to discuss.  Don't expect an overwhelming consensus, other than perhaps to definitely try and find local crazy DIYers ( I include myself in that demographic) and listen to actual systems before deciding what flavor you do or don't like.

While I've never personally been a big fan of EQ, etc., preferring to tolerate minor warts and blemishes in my system, with the trend to computer based front ends, it has probably never been easier to integrate multiple customizable EQ settings.   

Something to also consider is the synergy between certain types of amplifiers and "full-range" loudspeakers.  I'll make no apologies for my preference for low powered tube amps, and if you've not yet had the opportunity, would encourage you to seek and audition to such a system.  There are tons of us crazies out there, and one could be closer than you think.


edit:

p.s.  any inquiry positing the question "best? "  is guaranteed to arouse some master debates

one of the homes of (mostly harmless) full-range speaker crazies would be:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/ 

[chadh]

Enjoyment from listening at low volumes is not only a product of speaker choice.  I found that one of the most pronounced differences in this arena was made by my choice of amplifier. 

A while back, I started using a SET amp along with my single driver speakers.  This was a definite improvement for me in almost every dimension of my listening experience.  The only step backwards I took was with the dynamics I experienced at low volume levels.

So what was I replacing that seemed so dynamic at low volumes?  A pair of gainclone/chip amp monoblocks from Channel Island.  These chip amps are extremely sensitive:  I think they give full gain with something less than a .75v input.  Paired with the omega single driver speakers, they gave a crystal clear, super dynamic experience even when I was playing at 8 o'clock on my pre-amp volume control so as not to wake the kids at 1am.  I'd recommend looking into some sort of low powered gainclone/chip amp to mate with some sensitive single drivers if most of your listening is at soft volumes.

Chad 

[Russell Dawkins]

Enjoyment from listening at low volumes is not only a product of speaker choice.  I found that one of the most pronounced differences in this arena was made by my choice of amplifier. 

Chad

Good point! Amplifier behavior at ultra low output levels is seldom considered. This might be a rare opportunity to try something unusual but power limited, like the Transcendent OTL 1.5 watt power amp:
http://www.transcendentsound.com/singleended.htm

[20q]

Thanks for the info on PC EQ JLM and chrisby. It seems like I should try to get the highest efficiency I can, with good bass response at lower volumes. I don't need truely low bass. Like pipe organ bass or bass for movies. I just need the bass to be hearable at low volumes.

Russell Dawkins WAF is thankfully not an issue due to not having a wife lol. These will be for my small bedroom. I'll manage to fit any kind of speaker in here big or small. I don't intend on playing my music loud ever.

More info..."didn't want to overload anyone in the first post"
My listening tastes are primarily rock music. I believe I would perfer the speaker to be neutral as opposed to forward or laid back. I definatly don't want bright. I have a bright setup now and it is ear fatiguing in combination with rock even on lower volume levels.

If I have to sacrifice anything though it would be bass. So if there is some speakers that have incredible midrange but lack bass I'll consider them too. I like the idea of time and phase coherance. I'm not sure how important that is in the real world in a smaller room at lower volumes.

Amps
As far as amps go. I'm not ready for tubes yet. I was thinking used Class D or T or maybe a used First Watt amp. Since I use my computer to play my music I'm interested in USB amps like Bel Canto. I can't really get to figuring out which amp I want yet until I have speakers picked out. Thanks for the help, there's a lot to be learned and a many different options.

[Len_Dreyer]

Here's one that you really should consider, available from an A/C member. It's a steal at this price:

Horne Shoppe Horns

[JLM]

For a bedroom system running off a PC a $250 NuForce (see circle below) Icon would be sweet.  It's small, 12 wpc, has a built in USB DAC, and a volume control.  A small investment and plenty good enough to get your feet wet.

I've heard The Horns several times and only been impressed once (as reported by others they seem to be fussy regarding placement).  For a bedroom I'd be worried about these short floorstanders (the drivers are about 25 inches above the floor) getting "lost" behind furniture.

Here are some tiny single driver speakers: TBI Magellan

[jk@home]

I recently set up a nearfield single driver/dual subwoofers/low power tube system, for low(er) level listening in a small room. Works as long as I don't go too low. If you use an EQ, make sure you can have several preset settings, for low and high listening levels.

I would think bass and dynamics are the two things one needs most for rock music. My system above is a little too "polite" for that (at low levels); my other HT setup does rock better. I plan on setting something up in the garage especially for rock/pop.

How about starting with a nice audiophile headphone system?

[Len_Dreyer]

I've heard The Horns several times and only been impressed once (as reported by others they seem to be fussy regarding placement).  For a bedroom I'd be worried about these short floorstanders (the drivers are about 25 inches above the floor) getting "lost" behind furniture.

FWIW, the center of the speaker driver is 27.5" above the floor which could be raised using concrete blocks etc. etc. You don't see these speakers sold much, a good indicator of a very good speaker and at this price ... very much worth looking into. The room always needs to be considered. Have fun.

[chrisby]

For a bedroom system running off a PC a $250 NuForce (see circle below) Icon would be sweet.  It's small, 12 wpc, has a built in USB DAC, and a volume control.  A small investment and plenty good enough to get your feet wet.

another option for direct connection to USB source would be Kingrex T20U - (about $70 US more than the NuForce)

http://www.audio-magus.com/product_p/109103.htm

I've heard The Horns several times and only been impressed once (as reported by others they seem to be fussy regarding placement). For a bedroom I'd be worried about these short floorstanders (the drivers are about 25 inches above the floor) getting "lost" behind furniture.

Yup, "The Horns" can work great for a lot of systems, but I'd be inclined to agree that placement in a small bedroom could be an issue for any rear vented horn, TL etc.


A lot of users of these speakers have found that only a few degrees of upwards tilt via blocks our spikes can assist vertical dispersion; or as Len mentioned in an intervening post, you could raise the driver height by mounting them on concrete blocks, etc. In a small room any theoretical loss of bass from reduced boundary coupling to the floor would be insignificant, but geometric placement for imaging sweet spot could still be an issue. 



Often a small bedroom / college dorm situation can be best served by desk-top sized enclosures, many of which are compact and light enough to mount on wall brackets or (shudder)  bookshelves.   I can think of several 13 liter (approx .5 ft^3) or less enclosures for drivers such as Fostex or Mark Audio that have proven quite satisfactory for such an application. 

It's not clear yet whether you've answered the question with regards to building a pair of speaker enclosures?  There are actually a fair number of  suppliers of drivers, flat-pak kits & or pre-fab boxes worth investigating.  At the risk of breaching forum rules, this list includes the commercial site listed in signature line below.


As for audiophile headphones - "cans" aren't for everybody - in over 45 years in this hobby, I've never been able to abide for very long the comfort of those I could afford, or frankly the isolation from real world and unnatural perspective of the "high" end models I tried out of curiosity.  Moreover, a high resolution pair and capable amplifier can cost well over $1000 and  be more relentless in revealing any deficiencies of the source, of which many lesser computer based systems have in spades. 

[hatehifi]

Hi and likely, bye. FWIW, the gear I mentioned will play any music venue but as I too mainly listen to rock, I can attest to their 'synergy' in this department. Have you read through Zu's and Dayens' websites? May be you could spend some time reading through 6moons.com reviews on the stuff I mentioned (incl. cables). I've got a good sized living room, main listening room and visitors are amazed at my low volume level. Matter of fact, I tune, dial-in systems at the lowest audible output level. Be that as it may, I've got a highly regarded Class D amp that's raved about on this forum and quite honestly, the Ampino is as good and up to 'far superior' in all disciplines comparatively. Only downside (?) is that it doesn't have a remote volume control. Good luck with your hobby and bedroom system!

[chrisby]

Hi and likely, bye. FWIW, the gear I mentioned will play any music venue but as I too mainly listen to rock, I can attest to their 'synergy' in this department. Have you read through Zu's and Dayens' websites? May be you could spend some time reading through 6moons.com reviews on the stuff I mentioned (incl. cables). I've got a good sized living room, main listening room and visitors are amazed at my low volume level. Matter of fact, I tune, dial-in systems at the lowest audible output level. Be that as it may, I've got a highly regarded Class D amp that's raved about on this forum and quite honestly, the Ampino is as good and up to 'far superior' in all disciplines comparatively. Only downside (?) is that it doesn't have a remote volume control. Good luck with your hobby and bedroom system!

Well, for a desk or lap-tap PC based system, the lack of remote volume is  probably easier to overcome with something like a Squeezebox controlled system, than issues related to most appropriate (aka "best") speaker solution for this particular application.


Of the highly rated Zu speaker line, would not the Credenza be a more logical candidate for small room venue?  Powered woofer(s) could always be added when the environs change. 

[20q]

I'm sure there is savings to be had building your own speakers but I'd perfer to leave it to the proffesionals. Not interested in headphones or getting into vinyl. Doing more reading on what was recommended.

[Wayner]

AVA amps operate in class "A" mode up to a certain wattage. I listen at low volumes most of the time, in near field positions. This is a fantastic way to listen to vinyl as it is very close and personal. You also get to crawl inside the recording, if you will. I think that you are on the right course. looking for a high efficiency speaker that can produce most of the spectrum at low power. Your bass response will be reduced, but moving the speakers closer to the outside walls may improve the power response at lower frequencies.

Wayner

[Quiet Earth]

I can't really get to figuring out which amp I want yet until I have speakers picked out.

Should be the other way around. The best amplifiers for low to reasonable volume levels (i.e., up to 85dB sound pressure level) are tube rectified, single ended triodes that use a single output tube.

Get the best SET amp you can afford. Speaker selection comes after that.

[Wayner]

Yeah, if you like lots of distortion.

W