Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound

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Tangram

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Re: Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound
« Reply #20 on: 12 Nov 2023, 03:01 pm »
On the other hand, have you ever put your hand on the cabinet of a Mesa Boogie half stack....or a 10" fender combo amp?  There is vibration...and sometimes a lot of vibration...and depending on the music you listen to, especially live, you are hearing this vibration.

I don't know the right answer...maybe other than the Acora granite speakers and a few others that are very expensive, vibration is there.  What I do know is that the Acoras sound great...and so do speakers that vibrate a little including the Spatials.

If I were spending money to stop vibration to get better sound with the Spatials...or any other speaker, especially if we are talking thousands of dollars, I'm thinking that the money might be better spent on better electronics....at least for me...but I'm sure that others won't agree and that is ok.

I find this viewpoint reductive. It’s not a black and white question of vibration vs. no vibration. Rather, it’s what the “right” amount of vibration should be, and in the case of Spatials - because of their inherently unstable design - is there too much vibration? I don’t have the answer because I haven’t tested it. I have my doubts that a floppy baffle contributes positively to the sound but maybe it does. I own Harbeths as well, so I’m not averse to thin-wall speaker designs and vibrating boxes. I do note, however, that some Maggie owners rave about Mye stands and some other open baffles designers (PAP, GR Research) brace the front baffles in some models.

And since this thread has expanded into the value of isolation footers, you have an opinion on how music should sound, which is fine. We may not have the same preferences. But when I tried out the Gaias on my M3S’s, I got a leaner sound, but it cleaned up the bass, providing (to me) a more enjoyable listening experience. I didn’t think they’d do much (for a variety of reasons) but since Clayton offered them as an option after I bought my Sapphires and he’s the guy who designed and voiced the speaker, I thought they were worth trying. Couldn’t be happier.

ric

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Re: Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound
« Reply #21 on: 12 Nov 2023, 03:22 pm »
   About the Gaia's, interesting experience. I have them on my M3TS Spatials, but when I first put them on the sound was horrible, lean and lifeless. Then I had the idea of putting some Herbie's product (cut down footers) under the Gaia's and the sound was what I had hoped it would be: cleaner, tuneful bass, better imaging etc.
  I had contacted IsoAcoustics to ask if they had any idea about what I was hearing, they did not. I suspect it may have had something to do with the "floating floor" over concrete slab and the suction cup bottoms of the Gaia feet, but hey, if it works, it works!
  I use IsoAcoustic products under everything now, and I highly recommend them, and there are some who hear negative effects.

DaveWin88

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Re: Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound
« Reply #22 on: 12 Nov 2023, 04:23 pm »
You know guys, I apologize for being all riled up :) Some very very good points have been made by Ric, Tangram, RonN5 and others. Baffle rigidity and coupling with the floor really are two different things. The mye stands look fantastic, and seem to address the problem properly? The official maggie stands are a no go. We have to find a balance that address the problems and not rob what makes the Spatials so special to begin with. Side note, I'm actually not a fan of the Silversmith audio cables anymore as they just robbed to much bass. I should have probably seen this with all the immediate praise they were getting. Still very good and maybe a way to take away some bass from bass heavy speakers.

Mr. Big

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Re: Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound
« Reply #23 on: 12 Nov 2023, 04:34 pm »
The leaner sound makes for more detail, take a receiver and turn up the treble you will hear more detail, or take the bass control and turn it down and you will hear more detail. 

In my own experience Gaia's feet were installed by my dealer on a visit to my house, played about one minute of music, and said take them off you ruined the balance and the sound. I put the 2 short spikes back on in the front and the taller one in the back and played the same track, he said Well the Gaia cleaned up the sound and I said yes, they do but which one sounds like real music he said Well, the spikes, I said touch the top of the speaker while playing where the tweeter is, I said do you feel vibrations? He said I don't.

Put that money into room acoustic panels. But in the end, if you like the sound that is all that matters so love your Gaia's. But Gaia's do what so many other footers and spikes have done in the past, tighten, clean, and push details more forward. They look different of course as do Townshend Platforms or their Townshend Audio Seismic 'Low frequency' Isolation Pods @$1,000. All will change the sound of anything be it a speaker or an amp etc.

Even different spikes with different materials sound different. I went back to the store with him, and he played the Focal Reference Sopra No.2 speakers for $20,000. They sounded like crap, I looked at Gaia's feet under them, and I said you have the footers that came with the speakers he said, of course, I said put them back on he did, and the speaker improved 100% Still sound tilted on the top and lower treble still not for me but sounded at least more balanced before a B3 organ sounded like a toy playing, and a B3 organ sound is anything but. Once you hear a B3 organ you never forget it is big, full, and warm sounding. Was the organ on many rock records in the 60's and 70's.

Tangram

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Re: Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound
« Reply #24 on: 12 Nov 2023, 04:51 pm »
The leaner sound makes for more detail, take a receiver and turn up the treble you will hear more detail.

In my own experience Gaia's feet were installed by my dealer on a visit to my house, played about one minute of music, and said take them off you ruined the balance and the sound. I put the 2 short spikes back on in the front and the taller one in the back and played the same track, he said Well the Gaia cleaned up the sound and I said yes, they do but which one sounds like real music he said Well, the spikes, I said touch the top of the speaker while playing where the tweeter is, I said do you feel vibrations? He said I don't.

Put that money into room acoustic panels. But in the end, if you like the sound that is all that matters, but Gaia's do what so many other footers and spikes have done in the past, tighten, clean, and push details more forward. Even different spikes with different materials sound different. I went back to the store with him, and he played the Focal speakers for $20,000. They sounded like crap, I looked at Gaia's feet under them, and I said you have the footers that came with the speakers he said, of course, I said put them back on he did, and the speaker improved 100% Still sound tilted on the top and lower treble still not for me but sounded at least more balanced before a B3 organ sounded like a toy playing, and a B3 organ sound is anything but. Once you hear a B3 organ you never forget it is big, full, and warm sounding. Was the organ on many rock records in the 60's and 70's.

This is what makes the hobby so interesting - same product, different preferences. Mr. Big, the volume of your room is probably 3X mine, which is 13X16X6.5’ (basement in a century home). Yours is open behind the listening position, whereas mine is a completely enclosed, windowless cave (repurposed home theater ☺️). It’s fully treated and is easily pressurized. Even my little, ported Harbeth M30.2s can pressurize the room. When I put on the Gaias the bass was leaner but in the ensuing months since I’ve marveled on numerous occasions how tight, deep, and forceful the bass is. But I can totally understand that in a different room, and with different sound preference, some people may think the Gaias are a scam. Heck, I borrowed a set before buying (meaning I had to install them twice, which is a bit of a pain) because I was skeptical.

Mr. Big

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Re: Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound
« Reply #25 on: 12 Nov 2023, 05:02 pm »
This is what makes the hobby so interesting - same product, different preferences. Mr. Big, the volume of your room is probably 3X mine, which is 13X16X6.5’ (basement in a century home). Yours is open behind the listening position, whereas mine is a completely enclosed, windowless cave (repurposed home theater ☺️). It’s fully treated and is easily pressurized. Even my little, ported Harbeth M30.2s can pressurize the room. When I put on the Gaias the bass was leaner but in the ensuing months since I’ve marveled on numerous occasions how tight, deep, and forceful the bass is. But I can totally understand that in a different room, and with different sound preference, some people may think the Gaias are a scam. Heck, I borrowed a set before buying (meaning I had to install them twice, which is a bit of a pain) because I was skeptical.

I don't think Gaias is a scam. They do what they say they will do, change the sound of a given speaker in a given room. Many other footers will do the same thing but will sound a bit different and much cheaper. I can take all the spikes off my Sapphires and let them rest on the 2 rubber feet that are attached where we screw in our spikes or Gaias and with a different toe-in that sounds good that way also, but more present and fuller. I spoke with a speaker designer years ago about spikes on a pair I owned, and I said they sounded better without the spikes on them, he said, "We put the spikes on them because today this is what the buyer expects" We don't spike them they won't sell". He went on "people forget for years and years no speakers had spikes and they sounded really good".

Charles Xavier

Re: Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound
« Reply #26 on: 27 Nov 2023, 07:53 pm »
If you watch this video at 12:31 the guy has attempted to solve the vibration. Don't know if it actually helps because nothing else was said about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6C7y4TIy4&t=1354s

Tangram

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Re: Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound
« Reply #27 on: 27 Nov 2023, 08:13 pm »
If you watch this video at 12:31 the guy has attempted to solve the vibration. Don't know if it actually helps because nothing else was said about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6C7y4TIy4&t=1354s

Thanks for pointing this out. I would never have stumbled across it. I'm not convinced theirs is the most effective method (well-hidden though,) but I'm glad that I'm not alone in my belief that reducing baffle movement *may* take the sound quality up a notch on the Spatials. Now I just need to figure out how to do it.

Charles Xavier

Re: Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound
« Reply #28 on: 27 Nov 2023, 08:47 pm »
Thanks for pointing this out. I would never have stumbled across it. I'm not convinced theirs is the most effective method (well-hidden though,) but I'm glad that I'm not alone in my belief that reducing baffle movement *may* take the sound quality up a notch on the Spatials. Now I just need to figure out how to do it.

I'm not about to drive concrete screws or anything else into my cabinets anyway.

Mr. Big

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Re: Baffle Movement - Would Less Movement Improve Sound
« Reply #29 on: 28 Nov 2023, 02:52 pm »
I'm not about to drive concrete screws or anything else into my cabinets anyway.

He is the audiophile who goes to the extreme but he enjoys it. I knew one like him 40 years ago, he was out there, nothing he owned, that he did not mess with in some fashion. He even wrapped his amp in a baggie to hold all the heat in until the amp was hot so it sounded its best. Silver coated all his AC outlets, the same for all his tube holders and tube pins, and on and on.