AudioCircle

Industry Circles => ModWright Instruments (MWI) => Topic started by: modwright on 4 Dec 2018, 02:08 am

Title: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 4 Dec 2018, 02:08 am
I have just received the first Pioneer UHD-LX800 Univerasl Player and I am IMPRESSED! In stock form, this is a SERIOUS machine![/size]


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187586)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187582)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187583)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187584)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187585)


Impressive build! Very heavy, completely solid and non-resonant with fantastic shielding and rigid construction. This is a well designed piece!

I am just playing CD's through the Pioneer UDP-LX800 right now to burn it in and I am IMPRESSED! VERY black background, wide soundstage and very resolving and beautiful sounding! I believe the attention that Pioneer payed to the mechanical build, with individually mechanically and electrically shielded audio, transformer, video, power supplies can be HEARD in its presentation! I am not typically this impressed with a STOCK unit! The LX500 should ALSO be very interesting! Much of the same design attention was paid to this unit also!

The LX500 also has potential! I am going to be looking hard at both of them! I just happen to have the fortune to spend some time with the 800 first, thanks to a customer!

Let me know what level of interest there is in mods for these new UHD Players!

Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: oem-wheels on 4 Dec 2018, 04:09 am
Modwright Oppo205 owners need not to consider this Pioneer, right ?
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 4 Dec 2018, 04:53 pm
No, 205 owners need not consider this.

I am looking for the NEXT great Universal Player, since the 205 is no longer in production. This unit is a very solid performer!

Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: RDavidson on 4 Dec 2018, 07:29 pm
I really wish other manufacturers would include HDMI inputs like Oppo did. It's SO USEFUL for people who have a 2 channel "HT" setup...so things like the cable box or whatever can take advantage of the audio and video processing in these great universal players.

This looks like a REALLY nice platform for Modwright mods, for sure. The construction looks excellent. :D
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Tom Bombadil on 4 Dec 2018, 11:26 pm
Unfortunate,  given the price that they are asking, that they are using lower end ESS DAC chips than what the Oppo 205 used. 
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 5 Dec 2018, 12:41 am
I believe Pioneer is using the newest generation of the Sabre Pro (9026).  The difference in price per chip from sales sites for the 9028 vs. the 9038 is about $35/chip for consumers to buy and probably a bit less for a manufacturer buying in quantity.  Many things use the same DAC chip but that is only one aspect of how the product will sound.  Regarding differences between the 9028 and 9038, there is some info here - http://www.dimdim.gr/tag/es9038pro/
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: dminches on 5 Dec 2018, 01:01 am
I believe Pioneer is using the newest generation of the Sabre Pro (9026).  The difference in price per chip from sales sites for the 9028 vs. the 9038 is about $35/chip for consumers to buy and probably a bit less for a manufacturer buying in quantity.  Many things use the same DAC chip but that is only one aspect of how the product will sound.  Regarding differences between the 9028 and 9038, there is some info here - http://www.dimdim.gr/tag/es9038pro/

9026 or 9028?
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 5 Dec 2018, 01:06 am
Hi Phil and thank you!  This is indeed very illuminating and explains a lot! I at first assumed that Pioneer simply cheaped out. That could be part of the equation, but my takeaway from the article and data sheet comparison is that the 9028 and 9038 are virtually identical with the exception of the much higher current output for the 9038. Now yes, that higher current does offer leeway in how the I-V stage is implemented and also, offers better measured performance. I have to say however, that we are talking measurements that are STUPID GOOD to start with and then improved upon some more. The differences are so fine as to be inaudible, all else being equal.

The lower current/power budget for the 9028 is possibly another reason for this choice. Much higher current and power to the chip can also lead to more noise if not handled properly. In short, the design choices are multi-factorial and based on the data sheets that I now see, I honestly believe the difference in DACs to be a non-issue.

Where Pioneer clearly DID better the Oppo 205, is in build quality, shielding and vibration isolation. That is evident and audible!

I have yet to dig into the power supplies and analog stage in the Pioneer as I am simply letting it burn in for now and getting acquainted with its sound. I will make each change separately and listen and measure to determine the benefit of each step in the mod design process.

For those who have 205's, no, this product is not a reason to sell the 205 and run out and buy a Pioneer LX800. For those who were not able to secure an Oppo 205 however, I believe that this unit and the LX500 could both offer exceptional replacements for the Oppo products. There is a lot to like about these new units! Pioneer did their homework and I look forward to seeing what we can do to make them TRULY exceptional and World Class!
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 5 Dec 2018, 01:07 am
9026 or 9028?

The Pioneer apparently uses the 9026 per this - https://fromvinyltoplastic.com/pioneer-udp-lx500-udp-lx800-4k-uhd-blu-ray-players-first-look/

I haven't noticed any sites (haven't really looked) that are selling the 9026 vs. the 9028 - e.g. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/ES9028-ES9028PRO-Audio-DAC-Chip-64-eTQFP-135dB-DNR-120dB-THD-N/32921015514.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.35.538d7fbc8DKDcx&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10065_10068_10130_10890_5730315_10547_319_10546_317_10548_10545_10696_453_10084_454_10083_10618_5729215_10307_537_536_10059_10884_10887_100031_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_1,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=4856ff6d-eb39-4db2-98a7-aa51b3e092e1-5&algo_pvid=4856ff6d-eb39-4db2-98a7-aa51b3e092e1
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: dminches on 5 Dec 2018, 01:18 am
Thanks Phil.

What role, if any, does the DAC chip play in developing the HDMI signal sent to an AV processor which decodes the multi-channel signal?

Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 5 Dec 2018, 01:35 am
Good question and I am really not sure. I believe that the signal fed via HDMI is digital, to the pre/pro for decoding. In that case, the DAC plays no role.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: dminches on 5 Dec 2018, 01:49 am
Good question and I am really not sure. I believe that the signal fed via HDMI is digital, to the pre/pro for decoding. In that case, the DAC plays no role.

That’s what I thought, Dan.

Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 5 Dec 2018, 02:40 am
OK, some listening notes, comparing STOCK Oppo UDP-205 to STOCK Pioneer UHD LX800.

Format: Redbook CD

Same cabling, preamp, amp and speakers.


The Pioneer compared to the 205, again, both stock, has a greater sense of detail, resolution and refinement. The 205 is slightly warmer and by comparison, just a bit more subdued. It is hard to explain. The Pioneer simply sounds very refined! There is a delicacy and very fine low level detail and resolution with the stock LX800 that I don't hear in the stock 205.

As I proceed with this mod, it will be my goal to absolutely retain this low level detail and refinement.  It is the quality that I hear when the noise floor is EXCEPTIONALLY low. It is also not in any way bright or aggressive, which suggests very low jitter and distortion.

The next step will be to study the power supplies and analog stages and also measure the stock noise levels. Now I don't have a Digital module for my Audio Precision, so my measurements will be on my Tek analog scope, studying the low level and high frequency noise artifacts or lack thereof, in the power supplies and analog outs.

This is going to be fun! This may or may not necessarily include tubes. I do see transformer coupling in one or more stages and likely tubes in the analog stage. Honestly though, I am going to treat this like a blank canvas! The LX800 appears to be a well designed piece of digital gear and I want to improve upon it strengths! There are few weaknesses to address, which is uncommon for a piece of gear at this level!

To be clear, I am not sure what U.S. MSRP for the stock Pioneer LX800 will be. I would guess between $1500-$2K, but that is just a guess. I believe the LX500 is about $1K.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: SoCalWJS on 5 Dec 2018, 06:41 pm
Glad that there is a potential new Universal Player that may work out for this market.

Still very unhappy that Oppo did what it did. I was fairly certain somebody would buy out the Oppo Blu Ray (and other Audio) portion of the business from the Corporation and carry on.

Perhaps Pioneer will take over this Niche. Needs a few more features, but a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 5 Dec 2018, 07:12 pm
I agree that it is a step in the right direction. Equally frustrated about Oppo!

Dan
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: witchdoctor on 5 Dec 2018, 09:22 pm
Glad that there is a potential new Universal Player that may work out for this market.

Still very unhappy that Oppo did what it did. I was fairly certain somebody would buy out the Oppo Blu Ray (and other Audio) portion of the business from the Corporation and carry on.

Perhaps Pioneer will take over this Niche. Needs a few more features, but a step in the right direction.

I love my Sony UHPH1 and recommend you look at their UBP X1000ES:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/blu-ray-disc-players/ubp-x1000es
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: dminches on 5 Dec 2018, 09:31 pm
I used to own a Sony UBP x1000ES.  The 4k and BR picture were very nice.  However, the Sonys do not have the build quality of the high end Oppos and Pioneers.  For example, the Sony weighs under 9 pounds while the Opps and Pioneers weigh 30 pounds.  Obviously weight isn't everything but it is something.
 
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: witchdoctor on 6 Dec 2018, 02:54 am
IDK if the Sony would be a good candidate for modding but worth checking out. It plays every format, has DLNA, a ton of streaming apps, lots of customization features in the setup menu and the price is nice at around $499.

https://www.whathifi.com/sony/ubp-x1000es/review

Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Tommy123 on 6 Dec 2018, 07:30 am
Unfortunate,  given the price that they are asking, that they are using lower end ESS DAC chips than what the Oppo 205 used.

This is true. However, the LX800 uses 4x as many channels on the DAC compared to the 205. Here's a breakdown:

First ES9038PRO DAC (8 ch)
- 1 channel each per 7.1 channel
Second ES9038PRO DAC
- 2 channels for unbalanced
- 2 channels for balanced
- 2 channels for headphone amp
- 2 channels unused.

First ES9026PRO DAC (8 ch)
- 8 channels for unbalanced
Second ES9026PRO DAC (8 ch)
- 8 channels for balanced
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Tommy123 on 6 Dec 2018, 07:31 am
Dan, how did you get your hands on the LX800? I thought it's not available in North America? My Canadian dealer said it's on on his price sheet.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: SoCalWJS on 6 Dec 2018, 02:10 pm
I love my Sony UHPH1 and recommend you look at their UBP X1000ES:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/blu-ray-disc-players/ubp-x1000es
I'm good thanks.

Ordered an Oppo 205 the day Dan announced Mods for it and shipped it to him for the Mods.

Hoping it lasts forever and I don't have to ever change to another machine (as long as technology never changes, I'm set. :green:)

Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 6 Dec 2018, 03:05 pm
OK, some listening notes, comparing STOCK Oppo UDP-205 to STOCK Pioneer UHD LX800.

Format: Redbook CD

Same cabling, preamp, amp and speakers.


The Pioneer compared to the 205, again, both stock, has a greater sense of detail, resolution and refinement. The 205 is slightly warmer and by comparison, just a bit more subdued. It is hard to explain. The Pioneer simply sounds very refined! There is a delicacy and very fine low level detail and resolution with the stock LX800 that I don't hear in the stock 205.


To be clear, I am not sure what U.S. MSRP for the stock Pioneer LX800 will be. I would guess between $1500-$2K, but that is just a guess. I believe the LX500 is about $1K.


Per what I've seen - e.g. - https://www.cdrinfo.com/d7/content/pioneer-unveils-new-flagship-udp-lx800-uhd-bd-player  the 800 may be a bit more.  The $2,199 British Pound price (here's one of several sources -https://www.stereonet.co.uk/news/pioneer-udp-lx800-flagship-universal-disc-player-price-and-details)  in another article puts it a bit less than the first link above.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 6 Dec 2018, 04:34 pm
Thanks Phil!
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 6 Dec 2018, 06:11 pm
Dan - no problem - always watching stuff, especially since Oppo is no longer being made and their technical support is now down to email only (I recently had an issue that drove me nuts with my 203 and that sits in my 4k system, and I own a whole 8 UHD discs, which I basically might use for audio once a year if I have a bunch of people over and am running several systems - My Sony 4k TV requires a handshake even when I turn it off/standby, so one has to either disconnect HDMI or leave the TV on) .

Here's is Pioneer's USA Press Release on the 500 (which says $1,099 list but most of retailers I've seen are selling it for $999 - e.g. UDP-LX500)  https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Press/Pioneer+Introduces+New+'Elite+UDP-LX500+Universal+Disc+Player'+At+CEDIA+2018

I'd imagine that at CES, Pioneer will have a press release regarding the 800
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 6 Dec 2018, 07:18 pm
The LX500 has very good potentail too it sounds like based on what I have seen from the LX800. I expect that MUCH of the benefits of the LX800 will be found in the LX500. I believe it lacks a Linear Power supply for audio, but we could take care of that! Looks like the same drive, clocking and chassis anti-resonant tech is still present.

I believe the DAC is AKM instead of SABRE, but that is NOT a bad thing either, as the AKM DACs are very good!

Thanks,

Dan
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: smargo on 6 Dec 2018, 09:00 pm
The LX500 has very good potentail too it sounds like based on what I have seen from the LX800. I expect that MUCH of the benefits of the LX800 will be found in the LX500. I believe it lacks a Linear Power supply for audio, but we could take care of that! Looks like the same drive, clocking and chassis anti-resonant tech is still present.

I believe the DAC is AKM instead of SABRE, but that is NOT a bad thing either, as the AKM DACs are very good!

Thanks,

Dan

dan : if i cant locate the lx 800 anywhere - except in great britain - what's all the fuss about - are you saying you will do the mods in the future - when the player is available in the state or canada?
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: dminches on 6 Dec 2018, 09:12 pm
My Sony 4k TV requires a handshake even when I turn it off/standby, so one has to either disconnect HDMI or leave the TV on) .

Phil, do you mind further explaining the issue and what it causes you to do?

I have a Sony 4K projector and an Oppo 203 and have never had any connectivity issues.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: rbbert on 6 Dec 2018, 11:24 pm
OK, some listening notes, comparing STOCK Oppo UDP-205 to STOCK Pioneer UHD LX800.

Format: Redbook CD

Same cabling, preamp, amp and speakers.


The Pioneer compared to the 205, again, both stock, has a greater sense of detail, resolution and refinement. The 205 is slightly warmer and by comparison, just a bit more subdued. It is hard to explain. The Pioneer simply sounds very refined! There is a delicacy and very fine low level detail and resolution with the stock LX800 that I don't hear in the stock 205.

As I proceed with this mod, it will be my goal to absolutely retain this low level detail and refinement.  It is the quality that I hear when the noise floor is EXCEPTIONALLY low. It is also not in any way bright or aggressive, which suggests very low jitter and distortion.

If the difference between the two is solely due to the individual analog output stages, rather than due to digital processing, wouldn't your mods end up being the sole determinant of any audio differences?
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 6 Dec 2018, 11:30 pm
Hi guys, first of all, the LX800 will be available in the U.S. soon. I just happened to have a customer in the UAE that was willing to send me one from the UK to take a look at. When they are available in the U.S., we will be ready to accommodate our customers.

RE the analog stage being replaced in both, you have a point but...There are numerous factors that go into good sound. The anti-resonant enclosure, the quality of the power supplies, the nature of how digital signals are handled prior to decoding by the DAC, clocking, etc., are all factors that dictate how good a player can be. The analog stage IS a huge part and if all else were 100% equal, WOULD be the deciding factor.

Given that the Oppo and Pioneer units both use nearly the same SABRE DACs and both serve the same universal functions, I felt that it was fair to compare them stock to stock, to see what I had to work with. I really won't know until I get into it, how the modified Pioneer will compare to the modified 105 and 205.

My intent is to make the LX800 the best that it can be. I will take what I have learned with the 205 and 105, but this is a different product with its own strengths and weaknesses. For now, I can simply say that it starts off life as a high performance product! I am excited to see how much farther we can take it!
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 7 Dec 2018, 12:10 am
Phil, do you mind further explaining the issue and what it causes you to do?

I have a Sony 4K projector and an Oppo 203 and have never had any connectivity issues.

As noted I don't use the system for audio normally and don't own tons of 4K movies.  I made a new analog interconnect of somewhat similar materials which I've used before.  My original intent was to break it in using the system with the Oppo 203 to the Sherbourn preamp (with HT Bypass) which I use in that system.  I also bought a Hifi Tuning Fuse (at Parts Connexion and it was not super expensive).  So I started playing back files over the network and turned the TV off and noticed audio dropouts.  My 203 went back to Oppo already a couple of times (once for freezing up during an upgrade).  I'd leave it on repeat, overnight a couple of times and I'd find the system no playing in the morning.  After audio dropouts over the network, I tried a CD-R and experienced the same issue.  Then I tried a store bought CD and again had the same issue.  The dropouts were not what I could determine at regular intervals.  As noted, if I have a bunch of people over, that's the only time I use that system for audio.  The last time I did, I had a Teac UD-501 DAC in there with a small Windows PC running JRiver.  Anyway, I had the music server die (probably from lightning damage in March 2017) a few months ago and ended up moving the Teac DAC out of there into another system.

So I contacted Oppo support (and now it is just via email) after the issue.  Then we went back and forth with whether I was using proper HDMI cables (and it was much more difficult vs. talking to someone) and a whole bunch of other stuff.  Apparently, it is related to Sony TVs (not sure about the projector) and there is similar stuff on the web - e.g. https://community.sony.co.uk/t5/android-tv/kd55x8509-hdmi-issue/td-p/2091665   or   https://www.reddit.com/r/appletv/comments/8pgwhs/why_does_my_apple_tv_4k_hate_my_sony_xbr_65x900e/

Since I do not use the system generally for audio (pic below) - have 26 or so year old B&W P6s as mains (which I'm the original owner), my original thought was I had a problem and was going to end up sending it back to Oppo (and I started looking at alternatives like Pioneer and Panasonic just in case).  I have no problem if I leave the TV on.  Oppo told me I could also just disconnect the HDMI cable from the 203 as well.  In its current state, I'd probably only use the system if for audio with a bunch of people over.  That's more or less why I always get the lower end Oppo players as I just use them for video.  I still have a solid state Modwright modded BDP-83, which I sent back to Oppo about a year or so back at the same time I sent the 203 back.  The sticky drawer issue on the 83 is a known problem and I just had to pay shipping one way.  I have the 83 in the main system, even though I use a 103D in there for video.  The 83 can of course pass 192kHz out of its coax digital output from stuff like DVD-As or Blu-Rays and I have that going to my DAC.


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173380)
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: dminches on 7 Dec 2018, 12:25 am
I see.  Sorry I made you type all that information.  I use my 203 for video only so I would never run into that issue.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 7 Dec 2018, 12:30 am
I see.  Sorry I made you type all that information.  I use my 203 for video only so I would never run into that issue.

No problem.  It's probably a good thing that it is in a place like this for people who have modded Oppo players and Sony TVs (and I do know someone who has a Modwright 205 and the bigger version of my Sony TV.   I think the person uses it mostly for audio disc playback, although I might have left a thumb drive with files for him to try so it is possible he may have connected it for video. It drove me crazy.  I even tested the HDMI cables.  I use a Lumin U1 server in the main system, which is used for audio probably 95% of the time (even though it does video great) so I would never use my 103D for file playback in there.  I have another 103D in the master bedroom, which I may use from time to time to play back files from the NAS outside (the master bedroom feeds the outdoor speakers).
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: NIGHTFALL1970 on 7 Dec 2018, 04:38 am
Phil,
I also have a Sony 4K tv with my oppo, and experience dropout. It happens about 5 times during a song! Oppo customer service said that I should leave the tv on while playing music or unplug the tv. I do the latter. I don’t need to waste electricity or prematurely burn out my tv. I kept hoping that an update from oppo would solve the handshake issue, but now that’s not very likely.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 7 Dec 2018, 01:27 pm
Phil,
I also have a Sony 4K tv with my oppo, and experience dropout. It happens about 5 times during a song! Oppo customer service said that I should leave the tv on while playing music or unplug the tv. I do the latter. I don’t need to waste electricity or prematurely burn out my tv. I kept hoping that an update from oppo would solve the handshake issue, but now that’s not very likely.

It was news to me as the only time I tried file playback is when I got the 203 when it was first released.  I ended up upgrading the main system DAC and moving the old main system DAC into my primary back-up two channel system and moving the Teac UD-501 into the same room with the Oppo 203.  I have had a couple of bigger get togethers where I had used the Teac with a Windows 10 PC running JRiver.  I moved the Teac to a different system about a month ago.  If I had not made new cables to try in the system with the Oppo, I wouldn't have know about the issue.  I was baffled when I turned off the TV as to what the issue was.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: dminches on 7 Dec 2018, 02:02 pm
Are these dropouts occurring when you listen to the analog outputs of the Oppo or just when you are passing a digital stream to a DAC or AV processor?
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: NIGHTFALL1970 on 7 Dec 2018, 05:30 pm
It only happens when I listen to music and the TV is plugged in, but turned off. I have Frank’s latest dac, so I am bypassing the dac in the oppo. I don’t stream. I am only playing CD's and using coax out to the AVA. If I watch a DVD or blu-Ray, the TV is on, so no issues. The tech at oppo said that the dropouts occur when the oppo is looking for the TV signal. I wonder why they can’t fix this issue after all this time?
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 7 Dec 2018, 06:56 pm
Are these dropouts occurring when you listen to the analog outputs of the Oppo or just when you are passing a digital stream to a DAC or AV processor?

Correct - in my case I was playing out of the analog outs of the 203 into the Sherbourn preamp and got dropouts no matter what the source (network files, DSD, other hi-rez or CD quality), CD-Rs or store bought CDs).  If I watch a movie in that system, the Sherbourn has HT Bypass.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 7 Dec 2018, 07:05 pm
It only happens when I listen to music and the TV is plugged in, but turned off. I have Frank’s latest dac, so I am bypassing the dac in the oppo. I don’t stream. I am only playing CD's and using coax out to the AVA. If I watch a DVD or blu-Ray, the TV is on, so no issues. The tech at oppo said that the dropouts occur when the oppo is looking for the TV signal. I wonder why they can’t fix this issue after all this time?

It just may be that they don't have the resources.  I have a bunch of Oppo players, including an old BDP-93 (network card got blown out from lightning damage but the wifi dongle works).  I used the BDP-93 for a bit in my bedroom system (which also feeds my outdoor speakers).  When I got the 203, I moved the 103D I had to the bedroom system (which allows me to select all the files of all formats - the 93 won't do DSD) to the master bedroom and the 93 to the upstairs bonus room (which is more or less a guest bedroom) with a hard drive attached.  I contacted Oppo support.  They only had an Android App for media selection for the 93 and told me that at that point they didn't have the resources to go back and do an IOS App so I bought a cheapo Android Tablet.

The problem was a shock to me as I basically don't use the system for audio and had already had to send my 203 back to them twice before that.  I was dreading having to do that again and tested the HDMI cables, swapped RCA cables, etc, and I was ready to move one of the other Oppo players to try in the system when I contacted them.  That's why I started looking at alternatives like the Pioneer players that this thread deals with.  I started doing some research in case I need to buy a 4k player for that system.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: oem-wheels on 10 Dec 2018, 02:52 am
When Dan first posted about the new Pioneer 800, I googled it and found a site that advertised the new 800 was coming and beside describing what features this thing will bring it mentioned the price for it was going to be $1499.00 ..  Didn't mention it earlier as I thought someone else would of found it .. Seems its still a mystery..


Can't find it now.. Doing the conversion from European prices looks like its going to be much higher..
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 10 Dec 2018, 02:15 pm
There are threads out there on some forums that suggest the that the Pioneer 800 will not be released in the US:

Post 221 indicated the player will not be released in the US and 224 asks the source:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/2976738-pioneer-bdlx-uhd-player-anticipation-8.html

Post 243 gives the source which is a HT dealer:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/2976738-pioneer-bdlx-uhd-player-anticipation-9.html

The HT dealer mentioned is in NY:

https://www.valueelectronics.com/#gsc.tab=0
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 10 Dec 2018, 02:27 pm
Here's the owner of the NY HT Dealer indicating the LX800 is not coming to the US (post number 145, 9-14-18)

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=307880&page=8


There are more posts in the above thread thru the beginning of December with nothing to refute the NY HT dealer's comments.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 10 Dec 2018, 03:13 pm
Interesting.  I can think of no reason for it not to be released in the U.S. Any reason given for this by anyone?
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 10 Dec 2018, 03:19 pm
Interesting.  I can think of no reason for it not to be released in the U.S. Any reason given for this by anyone?

Dan - have not seen any reason.  One could call Value Electronics (I posted the link) and ask for the dealer (Robert Zohn).  I'd guess that if there is no announcement at CES next month (January 8 thru 11), given the announcements outside the US, it would be a good indication that the lack of a US release in probable.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Phil A on 10 Dec 2018, 03:21 pm
His email is apparently rzohn@valueelectronics.com and he posts on many HT forums.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 10 Dec 2018, 03:26 pm
Thx. I will email him directly.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 28 Dec 2018, 01:56 am
OK, digging into this today, after letting it burn in and getting used to it.

First of all, this thing is BUILT! I spent time yesterday, removing all of the covers and inspecting the transformer, drive, video processor and video supply.

1) The linear supply is powered by an EI core transformer, nicely made! This transformer is completely shielded!
2) The video processor is completely shielded and self contained.
3) The drive is not only completely shielded, but fully insulated against all vibration via soft damping material in apparently every axis! Never seen this before! It IS dead silent for a reason and this also equates to lower jitter and greater overall performance for audio and video!
4) The power supply for the audio circuitry is purely linear and all sourced from the transformer. The ONLY thing that is powered by the SMPS is the video circuitry. Even the DAC and all digital circuitry appears to be powered by the LPS for this unit!

DAC is 9026PRO from ESS (SABRE)

As expected, I-V, gain/buffer, filtering and summing circuitry for XLR-RCA outs are all accomplished by Burr Brown op-amps. Good op-amps, but I am not a fan of them. I don't like op-amps because they are inherently feedback based devices. I prefer Class A tube circuitry with zero feedback, typically aided by inductive reactive devices such as chokes and transformers. To my ears, the purest sound is achieved in this way!

I am next going to look at how best to take the audio signal from the SABRE DAC, without the use of any op-amps. I expect this input circuitry will be similar to how we achieve the same result from the Oppo 205 mod. Why? Because it SIMPLY WORKS and sounds amazing with very low noise floor!

More to come, but I wanted to share my thoughts here.

Now because this unit is not currently available in the U.S. right now, I am also VERY interested in the LX500 that IS available in the U.S.!

Now the LX500 has no Linear power supply for audio and uses the AKM DAC chip. My proposed solution for this model is to build our own audio LPS unit inside the LX500 and also install our own audio PCB internally, for a true on-box solution!  There is enough room to do this and the AKM DAC chip is very good!

If this interests you and you have a LX500, please let me know!

Thanks,

Dan
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Tommy123 on 28 Dec 2018, 02:38 am
Dan, looks like the LX800 will not be available in North America. I would be interested in the 1 box LX500 if it can surpass the OPPO 205.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 28 Dec 2018, 03:41 pm
I believe that it can surpass the 205, but the feature set is different.

No MCH analog outs and the digital input options are different than the Oppo.  This is why I need to know what the level of interest in this mod is.

Thanks,

Dan
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: RPM123 on 28 Dec 2018, 04:22 pm
The Oppo 205 has the better 9038 DAC (140 dB dynamic range) vs. the Panasonic 9026 DAC (124 dB dynamic range.)

Excerpt from "From "Vinyl to Plastic" article:

"With Oppo now fading into the dust there are several 4K UHD audiophile player contenders to replace their infamous 203 and 205, or are there? In my opinion none of the current batch of audiophile players can ‘hold a candle’ to the audio performance of the Oppo 205. Each contender has a number of significant deficiencies in terms of their hardware, ability to handle files, I/O connectivity and supported formats. Interestingly, these new players, like the 203 and 205, also have either none or a very restricted support for web apps.

Pioneer is releasing two 4K UHD Blu-ray players that are squarely aimed at the audiophile, just like the Panasonic UB9000.

The Pioneer UDP-LX500 seems to be aimed at audiophiles but with significantly less functionality than the Oppo 205. It is essentially a 203 with improved stereo only audio playback.

The Pioneer UDP-LX800 is their new flagship player aimed at audiophiles at a similar level to the Oppo 205. However it has notable differences in both its estimated pricing and features. Its audio DACs are also a small step down from those found in the 205. It too only supports stereo audio playback.

Neither player supports MQA disc or file playback nor contains any form of Dolby or DTS decoders so there are no 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs.

It should also be noted that the improved jitter reduction function, Precision Quartz Lock System (PQLS), ONLY works when a compatible Pioneer receiver is connected to the players via the HDMI connections."

"If we just look at analog stereo outputs then clearly the UDP LX800 is a contender to replace the Oppo 205. However you must look closely at its connectivity and format support. The LX500 does provide an improved DAC over the 203 and the UB9000 however, as with the LX800 you must carefully review the other players parameters before deciding whether it is the right player for you. There are significant connectivity and format support differences between these players at each of their respective levels. All players DAC’s provide support for a range of different audio filter characteristics, some of which are supported by the players."



Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 7 Jan 2019, 05:14 pm
Sorry guys, have been away from the site for a while. I got a unit from the UK.

I have now installed a tube analog stage in the first unit and it sounds fantastic!

As for North American Availability, I just don't  know. It seems inconceivable to me that they will not release in the U.S. and Canada, but I honestly don't know.

I am planning a mod for the LX-500 however, including an internal power supply and tube analog stage. The lack of umbilical and external supply will keep the cost down.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 23 Jan 2019, 10:47 pm
This mod is complete and the first will ship Friday!

I ended up using the UDP-205 tube mod because it simply works! The LX-800's use of the SABRE DAC chip and fully balanced outputs proved to be ideal.

Now the frustrating part: It is not and will not be available in N. America at 120V! This has been confirmed!

Mod Price: $2500

I will post my listening impressions by Friday, comparing it to a fully modified UDP-205!

I am also starting work on a mod for the Pioneer LX-500 that IS available in N. America for about $995. This mod will be less expensive because our own power supply and new analog stage will all be installed inside the Pioneer.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Tommy123 on 28 Jan 2019, 12:59 am
So the LX800 mod will have an external power supply like many previous OPPO mods?

Are you able to purchase the LX800 from a 120V country (maybe Asia?) and ship it to the customer once the mod is completed?
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 28 Jan 2019, 04:22 pm
So far, I am only aware of 240V units being available anywhere. Taiwan would be the exception to this, possibly. I have not checked this.

Dan
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: modwright on 29 Jan 2019, 07:36 pm
Pioneer UHD LX-800 Mod Details and Impressions: Final Answer!


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=189680)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=189681)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=189682)


(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=189683)


OK guys, so the first LX-800 mod is complete and ready to be shipped off today. It is excellent!

But first the details that are frustrating:
It is not and will not be available in North America!
It can be sourced from Asia through Japan (100V). I am not sure if this will operate properly at 120V, but since Taiwan is bringing them in from Japan, I would assume so.
We will not be purchasing them from Aisa. This will be something that the customer must do if they want a 120V (100V) unit.
The LX-500 is available in the U.S. So, one would assume that drives and such parts could be sourced in the U.S., but I don't know how readily available these parts are.
The LX-500 and LX-800 have PHENOMENAL drives that are SO WELL damped, insulated, isolated and protected from vibration that it is brilliant.
But, the digital input connectivity is limited to USB for static external USB storage, such as USB thumb drive or external HD.
There is no computer USB input, so no Roon or other server connectivity.
There is an ethernet network connection, but I am not sure how or if this can be used for music playback.

I did not evaluate the video playback, so I have not comment on this.

I did however, listen to CD playback and here is where I am IMPRESSED!!!

I used the exact same mod circuit as we implement in the Oppo UDP-205 mods. It is fully balanced in to out and features a well regulated, tube rectified external power supply.
Because the Pioneer uses a SABRE DAC chip (different than in the 205), the interface to our mods was the same. I did have to adjust the gain a bit because the DAC in the Pioneer had greater current output levels.


Listening impressions:

Music that I used for evaluation: "Take Dake with Neptune, Asian Roots".
Huge Soundstage and sense of space.
Excellent Decay.
Excellent low level detail from a VERY black background.
Authority and Tonality!
Big and Deep image!
Texture, impact, separation.
Rich tonality.


The sense of space, scale, micro and macro detail are truly staggering! The music emerges from SUCH a black background! I attribute this to the non-resonant chassis construction and drive treatment. The audio power supplies are also entirely from a linear power supply with dedicated transformer windings for analog and digital supplies.
The analog stage PCB is also laid out on a 6-layer PCB, so an excellent job of shielding and noise suppression is obviously done here also!

Is it a great unit stock? YES!
Is it a phenomenal unit with our mods? YES!

If you are not in North America, you can certainly access the unit and send it to us!
If you are in North American, you can still source a 240V  unit and use it with a step-down voltage converter. This is how I did all of my listening.
We will not be sourcing or supplying these players, but we will be offering mods for them.


Pioneer LX-800 Mod Cost: $2500, to include external power supply, Truth umbilical and installation of our own fully balanced, Lundahl transformer coupled analog stage.
Bybee rails not an option.
Return shipping not included in the price.




PLEASE NOTE: I ALSO HAVE A LX-500 IN FOR MODS AND I WILL SHARE MY IMPRESSIONS WHEN IT IS COMPLETE! IT HAS ROOM FOR AN INTERNAL SUPPLY. IT WILL BE A ONE-BOX SOLUTION AND THE MOD COST WILL BE LOWER. DAC CHIP IS AKM, SO THE MOD CIRCUIT WILL BE DIFFERENT!
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Tommy123 on 30 Jan 2019, 03:41 am
Thanks for the update Dan! Now I look forward to the LX500 mod. I think this will be the one to get for NA customers.
Title: Re: New Pioneer UHD-LX800 In The House!!!
Post by: Tommy123 on 23 Mar 2019, 01:07 am
Which audiophile transformer is good for the LX800 to be used in North America?