AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Empirical Audio => Topic started by: audioengr on 20 Nov 2017, 10:22 pm

Title: WIFI to be option for Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: audioengr on 20 Nov 2017, 10:22 pm
After doing a lot of testing of router and switch and Ethernet isolators, I determined that in order to get the best SQ from Ethernet, one must use a good grounded LPS for the router/switch and it must be a good router/switch.  My own switch is not as good as my router for SQ.

This is too much to ask of customers.  The goal of Ethernet was to eliminate any SQ degradation by the ancillary equipment and software.  Simply cannot be guaranteed with wired Ethernet.

Therefore, I devised a WIFI solution that has identical sound quality to my best wired Ethernet solution.  This includes cables, a WIFI adapter powered from a Hynes LPS and an Ethernet isolator. It seems to be as reliable as wired Ethernet, assuming a strong WIFI signal.

If customers cannot get WIFI to their equipment rack, then there are other options, such as optical (Thanks to Ketcham)(still testing for SQ):


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171634)

and AC-wiring Ethernet extenders - still being tested also.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: ketcham on 21 Nov 2017, 06:27 pm
I would like to take credit here but this only one solution I gained the collective of everyone on ComputerAudiophile who suggested the stated hardware.  It does require a LPS at the DAC end, as does the wireless option, Steve came up with.  I have not found improvement with LPS in the upstream network that is otherwise not isolated.  Given the data is sent in packs with a check sum for errors, I do not see how entire system with LPS throughout is beneficial, but some do claim this is also helpful, even necessary.  Again, this is not my experience (nor is it Professor Nugent's).  USB 2.0 data is transferred by drivers without the check sum implemented as it would otherwise be too slow and I believe is why I have not had an ideal experience with it.  USB was not only unstable with potential speaker damage but sound quality was inferior to SPDIF.  Ethernet input for Steve's dac is indeed superior, especially with his new design modifications which I recommend.  Personally, I ran 4 arms of this LPS product to four optical converters used in my system: https://wyred4sound.com/products/upgrades-mods-accessories/ps-1-modular-linear-power-supply  - Black Friday sale on now, BTW.

I also have wireless option Steve suggested with an Empirical LPS unit. 
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: audioengr on 21 Nov 2017, 06:38 pm
There is a lot of interest on the forum below about whether the optical interface or the WIFI is better:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?24355-For-those-using-Ethernet-to-your-DAC (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?24355-For-those-using-Ethernet-to-your-DAC)

Ketcham - have you got the WIFI working and if so, how does it compare to your previous optical?

Steve N.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: paul79 on 22 Nov 2017, 12:58 am
WiFi has the greatest potential I believe. It is completely physically isolated, but I am sure presents other noise issues that need to be dealt with.
The Auralic Aries with the latest firmware and over WiFi is stunningly good FE, if you use a good LPS to power the Aries.

Steve, I know these are not a Hynes solution, but I have gotten quite excellent results using the Sbooster supplies on the network side of things. I have a few Hynes supplies, and I actually prefer these powering my Router and NAS. Just the supply. Do not use the extra filter module they provide for anything network related, but the additional filter module may provide a nice improvement to Endpoints like the Aries etc....

Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: audioengr on 22 Nov 2017, 06:31 pm
WiFi has the greatest potential I believe. It is completely physically isolated, but I am sure presents other noise issues that need to be dealt with.
The Auralic Aries with the latest firmware and over WiFi is stunningly good FE, if you use a good LPS to power the Aries.

Steve, I know these are not a Hynes solution, but I have gotten quite excellent results using the Sbooster supplies on the network side of things. I have a few Hynes supplies, and I actually prefer these powering my Router and NAS. Just the supply. Do not use the extra filter module they provide for anything network related, but the additional filter module may provide a nice improvement to Endpoints like the Aries etc....

I saw the Sbooster stuff online.  This is good feedback.  Have you ever tried the Mojo LPS?

Steve N.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: zoom25 on 22 Nov 2017, 06:47 pm
I've also found differences between power supplies and various switches and routers. The other thing I played around with was ethernet cables: Cat 5e, 6, 6a, and 6a S/STP from Digiflex, Belden, TrippLite, Phantom cables. All generic stuff I got for free, except for the 6a S/STP. Around 15 cables in various lengths. I'm currently using the Cat 6a S/STP cables with their shields removed on both ends. In my swapping, I also found that the Cat 6a S/STP would lock on instantaneously on Roon. The Cat5e were the slowest in locking.

http://www.infinitecables.com/cat5e-cat6-cat6a/cat6a-molded-shielded-patch-cables/cat6a-sstp-black/

The switches were DGS-1005 and DGS-108 and a spare router Linksys E3000. Used with Bryston BDP-1 and iMac only. Nothing else connected. I can even unplug the router after initial setup and only have the switch and the 2 cables on. Allowed for more control. The switches require 5V and I've used Jitterbug on the DGS-1005. Waiting for the Teradak to show up.

https://www.siemon.com/us/standards/Screened_and_Shielded_Guide_7_Antenna_Myth.asp

https://www.siemon.com/us/standards/Screened_and_Shielded_Guide_9_Why_Use_Fully_Shielded_Cabling.asp

https://www.bicsi.org/pdf/conferences/winter/2009/presentations/Mythbusting%20Takes%20on%20Shielded%20Cabling%20-%20Herb%20Congdon%20and%20Brian%20Davis.pdf

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla107a/snla107a.pdf
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: audioengr on 22 Nov 2017, 06:54 pm
I've also found differences between power supplies and various switches and routers. The other thing I played around with was ethernet cables: Cat 5e, 6, 6a, and 6a S/STP from Digiflex, Belden, TrippLite, Phantom cables. All generic stuff I got for free, except for the 6a S/STP. Around 15 cables in various lengths. I'm currently using the Cat 6a S/STP cables with their shields removed on both ends. In my swapping, I also found that the Cat 6a S/STP would lock on instantaneously on Roon. The Cat5e were the slowest in locking.

http://www.infinitecables.com/cat5e-cat6-cat6a/cat6a-molded-shielded-patch-cables/cat6a-sstp-black/

The switches were DGS-1005 and DGS-108 and a spare router Linksys E3000. Used with Bryston BDP-1 and iMac only. Nothing else connected. I can even unplug the router after initial setup and only have the switch and the 2 cables on. Allowed for more control. The switches require 5V and I've used Jitterbug on the DGS-1005. Waiting for the Teradak to show up.

https://www.siemon.com/us/standards/Screened_and_Shielded_Guide_7_Antenna_Myth.asp

https://www.siemon.com/us/standards/Screened_and_Shielded_Guide_9_Why_Use_Fully_Shielded_Cabling.asp

https://www.bicsi.org/pdf/conferences/winter/2009/presentations/Mythbusting%20Takes%20on%20Shielded%20Cabling%20-%20Herb%20Congdon%20and%20Brian%20Davis.pdf

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla107a/snla107a.pdf

The jitterbug is a LPS?

The most important thing with wired Ethernet is that the LPS powering the router or switch have earth ground connected to DC common.  Secondly, the LPS should have fast-reacting regulator.

I use CAT7 - TNP from Amazon.  Cheap and delivers the goods.

Steve N.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: paul79 on 22 Nov 2017, 08:34 pm
To further, do not use the audiophile type barrel connectors for the DC Leads (Oyaide). Most of the Routers, other network equipment, etc. should use the same type of barrel connector that they come with for the best connection. The fork style that grabs around the center pin is best and it can be retensioned.

(https://media.digikey.com/Photos/CUI%20Photos/PP3-002AH.JPG)
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: paul79 on 22 Nov 2017, 08:40 pm
I saw the Sbooster stuff online.  This is good feedback.  Have you ever tried the Mojo LPS?

Steve N.

I have not. I have seen them, but have never tried. Some of the very cheap Chinese LPS on Ebay are surprisingly good though!
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: zoom25 on 22 Nov 2017, 09:17 pm
The jitterbug is a LPS?

The most important thing with wired Ethernet is that the LPS powering the router or switch have earth ground connected to DC common.  Secondly, the LPS should have fast-reacting regulator.

I use CAT7 - TNP from Amazon.  Cheap and delivers the goods.

Steve N.

The Jitterbug isn't a LPS. It's a filter. I've tried powering the switches from other things, even from the Bryston BDP-1 itself. I have ordered a separate Teradak U9 for the switch which is taking forever to come. The unit has a 5V USB output. The other thing I've used to power my switch is the Apple 5V chargers. Since those have a USB output, I can plug the Jitterbug into that and then a USB cable to power the DGS-1005.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: audioengr on 22 Nov 2017, 10:06 pm
The Jitterbug isn't a LPS. It's a filter. I've tried powering the switches from other things, even from the Bryston BDP-1 itself. I have ordered a separate Teradak U9 for the switch which is taking forever to come. The unit has a 5V USB output. The other thing I've used to power my switch is the Apple 5V chargers. Since those have a USB output, I can plug the Jitterbug into that and then a USB cable to power the DGS-1005.

The biggest SQ improvement I found was using a really good LPS with DC common connected to earth ground on the router.  The LPS needs a three-prong plug to AC power.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: zoom25 on 22 Nov 2017, 10:34 pm
The biggest SQ improvement I found was using a really good LPS with DC common connected to earth ground on the router.  The LPS needs a three-prong plug to AC power.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

This one has a three prong plug: http://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/879966-lightspeed-ldr-attenuator-passive-preamp-wteradak-u9-regulated-linear-power-supply.jpg

Internal: http://www.teradak.com/uploadfile/image/20131017/2013101710080817817.jpg

I'd assume this should be fine. There are more expensive 5V LPS, but I wanted to see how much benefit this would bring.

I wish more network audio devices would come with fiber inputs. Then the only noise to worry about would be on the conversion end inside the device. No need to worry about incoming noise.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: audioengr on 23 Nov 2017, 12:25 am
This one has a three prong plug: http://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/879966-lightspeed-ldr-attenuator-passive-preamp-wteradak-u9-regulated-linear-power-supply.jpg

Internal: http://www.teradak.com/uploadfile/image/20131017/2013101710080817817.jpg

I'd assume this should be fine. There are more expensive 5V LPS, but I wanted to see how much benefit this would bring.

I will work, but not sure if it's fast enough responding to sound good.  You could probably connect the earth ground to the DC common inside easily enough if you know how to solder.

Quote
I wish more network audio devices would come with fiber inputs. Then the only noise to worry about would be on the conversion end inside the device. No need to worry about incoming noise.

External is better because then you have control over the power supply and earth grounding, plus you can go wireless or wired easier IMO.

Some folks are using IFI LPS and others Sbooster.  I am using my own version of Hynes supply.

Steve N.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: paul79 on 23 Nov 2017, 01:10 am
The Sbooster supplies also need to be AC Grounded at the output. They do not come this way.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: paul79 on 23 Nov 2017, 01:48 am
Steve,

Have you tried any of the other Emo Systems Isolators? The EN-70HD or the EN-60KDS? I like the latter one because it has a cable on one end already.

Basically, did you choose the EN-70e for sonic reasons?
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: audioengr on 23 Nov 2017, 05:11 am
Steve,

Have you tried any of the other Emo Systems Isolators? The EN-70HD or the EN-60KDS? I like the latter one because it has a cable on one end already.

Basically, did you choose the EN-70e for sonic reasons?

Exactly.  I didn't like the sound of the HD version, only the e version.

Steve N.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: paul79 on 28 Nov 2017, 03:30 am
I should also add that optimizing the NAS, the router, and or whatever you get your files from, should be optimized. Routers typically have apps that can be shut off, and NAS drives can also be optimized. This makes important improvements IME.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: zoom25 on 28 Nov 2017, 03:32 am
I will work, but not sure if it's fast enough responding to sound good.  You could probably connect the earth ground to the DC common inside easily enough if you know how to solder.

External is better because then you have control over the power supply and earth grounding, plus you can go wireless or wired easier IMO.

Some folks are using IFI LPS and others Sbooster.  I am using my own version of Hynes supply.

Steve N.

I finally got the Teradak and it's a nice improvement over the stock D-Link switching.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: ivanj on 12 Jan 2018, 01:13 pm
Steve,
I think Wifi introduces a radio transmitter and receiver, on both ends into the system. I reckon you can't fully turn off the receiver at one end and the transmitter at another because of the way TCP works wirelessly. You'll have to grapple with those problems and factors. In setting up one streaming service I have read that 5 GHz band give better SQ than the 2.4GHz band which gives longer distance. Yhis is true of cordless phones. One will have to look at immunity from leakage from other "wifi radio stations" at those frequencies, class d amplifiers, and so on. If wifi is a radio transmission, the design length and quality of the antenna comes into play. Also, you will need to transmit and receive at the highest speed, all other things being equal, in order to have a bandwidth that exceeds the RMS level of the highest peak signal. This holds for wired connections also. We found that out years ago when we were testing Ethernet adaptors in computers. We were looking at IOPs.  How this transmits into a "steady stream" with jitter as a component I cannot begin to guess. We didn't look at jitter we were more concerned with transactions per second.

Have you or anyone else tested your wifi solution against a 50' crossover cable of say CAT 6 or 7 bandwidth from one Ethernet adapter to another? There are commentators on other board who are beginning to experiment with this. Using a crossover cable would eliminate the switch issue and the radio issues in the case of wifi.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: audioengr on 12 Jan 2018, 06:26 pm
Steve,
I think Wifi introduces a radio transmitter and receiver, on both ends into the system. I reckon you can't fully turn off the receiver at one end and the transmitter at another because of the way TCP works wirelessly. You'll have to grapple with those problems and factors. In setting up one streaming service I have read that 5 GHz band give better SQ than the 2.4GHz band which gives longer distance. Yhis is true of cordless phones.

I agree.  I would like to use 5GHz, but my adapter only does 2.5GHz.


Quote
One will have to look at immunity from leakage from other "wifi radio stations" at those frequencies, class d amplifiers, and so on. If wifi is a radio transmission, the design length and quality of the antenna comes into play.

I have three other routers I can see locally here and they don't seem to make any difference.  Maybe in an apartment building where there are 30 routers nearby it could make a difference.  No way for me to test this.

Quote
Also, you will need to transmit and receive at the highest speed, all other things being equal, in order to have a bandwidth that exceeds the RMS level of the highest peak signal. This holds for wired connections also. We found that out years ago when we were testing Ethernet adaptors in computers. We were looking at IOPs.  How this transmits into a "steady stream" with jitter as a component I cannot begin to guess. We didn't look at jitter we were more concerned with transactions per second.

I don't believe jitter is really the problem because it is packetized transmission which is buffered at the end-point.  However, the issues seem to be leakage noise across the transformer and the slew-rate of the transformer driver.

Quote
Have you or anyone else tested your wifi solution against a 50' crossover cable of say CAT 6 or 7 bandwidth from one Ethernet adapter to another? There are commentators on other board who are beginning to experiment with this. Using a crossover cable would eliminate the switch issue and the radio issues in the case of wifi.

50' is a long cable.  I plan to try this.  At this time, I have proven that the WIFI adapter powered from a grounded LPS delivers identical sound quality to a router powered from a grounded LPS wired directly to the DAC.

A customer sent me some TP-Link House AC wiring Ethernet extenders to try.  They were decent, but there was a small 2-cycle outboard motorboat running in the background all the time, sometimes in the music and the HF detail was not as clear.  I decided it's not good enough to recommend.

Steve N.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: ivanj on 13 Jan 2018, 02:39 pm
There used to be a way of changing channels - it's a radio - on 2.4GHz equipment if one got interference. Not is the equipment I have circa 2016. (5GHz is banned in Canada BTW so you made a good choice and is only for indoor use in the USA!) The FTC etc. rules for the new wifi router transmitters is that "it must be designed not to interfere and must reject interference." OK.

I just put down 50' as a crossover cable because I thought that would be an extreme case. I don't know is there is an optical version but that is moot because I haven't seen optical Ethernet adapters hardwired into consumer audio.

The leakage problem you mention makes lots of sense. We always found that if you have the right bandwidth cables and they were properly made, it was the adapter that was the biggest issue. Since I am just refreshing my knowledge of your system (and Ethernet) I haven't pulled out my manuals about jitter - I don't remember it being mentioned in computer courses on networking.

I could have told you not to bother with Powerline Ethernet for audio - it does have its utility - but I'm glad you found out on your own.

Is there a website where I can get a list of your current products and how they work with ancillary equipment and software? A block diagram of the overall chain and the innards to whatever extent you unveil would be helpful! I seem to be picking up bits and pieces and I don't have the overall picture.

Thanks Steve,
William

BTW Accuphase has always used Ethernet "HD-Link and HD-Link 2" for SACD/DSD transmissions from transports to DACs and also other digital gear they make.

 http://www.accuphase.com/technical_information/dp-560_technical_information.pdf

 This is all wired:

"The biggest feature of HS-LINKVer.2 is sending the music signal and the master clock separately to D/A converter in a receiver.
HS-LINK Ver.1 sends the music signal merging the master clock together, PLL circuit for master clock recovery is needed at receiver side.
Since master clock is been transmitting as it is, in HSLINK Ver.2, not only master clock recovery is unnecessary at receiver side but it comes to be  free from the jitter at PLL circuit."
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: audioengr on 13 Jan 2018, 07:21 pm
There used to be a way of changing channels - it's a radio - on 2.4GHz equipment if one got interference. Not is the equipment I have circa 2016. (5GHz is banned in Canada BTW so you made a good choice and is only for indoor use in the USA!) The FTC etc. rules for the new wifi router transmitters is that "it must be designed not to interfere and must reject interference." OK.

I actually have both 2.4GHz and 5GHz in my media room, but my WIFI adapter only supports 2.4GHz.

Quote
I just put down 50' as a crossover cable because I thought that would be an extreme case. I don't know is there is an optical version but that is moot because I haven't seen optical Ethernet adapters hardwired into consumer audio.

A customer of mine has been using a long optical adapter with good results, but he now has my WIFI adapter.  I'm not sure he is using it yet though.

Quote
The leakage problem you mention makes lots of sense. We always found that if you have the right bandwidth cables and they were properly made, it was the adapter that was the biggest issue. Since I am just refreshing my knowledge of your system (and Ethernet) I haven't pulled out my manuals about jitter - I don't remember it being mentioned in computer courses on networking.

Good feedback.

Quote
Is there a website where I can get a list of your current products and how they work with ancillary equipment and software? A block diagram of the overall chain and the innards to whatever extent you unveil would be helpful! I seem to be picking up bits and pieces and I don't have the overall picture.

I don't actually have my Ethernet stuff on my website yet.  I just have some posts here about it.  I'll try to describe it:

My Ethernet interface is a module that can be installed in an external converter/renderer I call the "Interchange".  It looks just like my "Off-Ramp" on my webpage, except for Ethernet input, silver chassis and has the same outputs.  I can install my Ethernet module inside my DAC as well, but it interfaces with I2S bus to the D/A. The Ethernet module buffers the packets and assembles the audio stream and outputs S/PDIF serial stream and I2S bus. The module can be clocked locally with on-board oscillators, or from my external "Turboclock", which has independent regulators for each clock and is wired with two 50 ohm coaxes to the Ethernet module. The module I have now is DLNA-based, so you can play music from Jriver or Audirvana +.  It does not support Roon.

For WIFI, my solution consists of LPS (matches the DAC chassis) that powers a small WIFI to wired Ethernet adapter.  The other side of the adapter has CAT7 cable that runs to an isolator and then another CAT7 cable that connects from isolator to the DAC input.

Steve N.
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: brj on 13 Jan 2018, 09:04 pm
For your wireless or optical solutions, are you finding any performance sensitivity to the "send" side of the Ethernet link, or is it sufficient to focus on the receive side due to the packetized nature of Ethernet?

(My own system uses the TP-Link MC210CS units to provide the optical link between network switch and music server, with the "receive" side MC201CS powered by a PowerSonic SLA battery fronted by a PI Audio BatteryBUSS to drop the impedance and filter sulphation noise, and connected via a 2 foot Belden Cat 6a bonded Ethernet cable.)
Title: Re: WIFI to be standard on Overdrive SX top DAC
Post by: audioengr on 13 Jan 2018, 09:39 pm
For your wireless or optical solutions, are you finding any performance sensitivity to the "send" side of the Ethernet link, or is it sufficient to focus on the receive side due to the packetized nature of Ethernet?

(My own system uses the TP-Link MC210CS units to provide the optical link between network switch and music server, with the "receive" side MC201CS powered by a PowerSonic SLA battery fronted by a PI Audio BatteryBUSS to drop the impedance and filter sulphation noise, and connected via a 2 foot Belden Cat 6a bonded Ethernet cable.)

I only have one router.  I guess I could try the wall-wart on the router instead of the LPS I am currently using...

Steve N.