Benchmark DAC-1

nathanm · « **Reply #20 on:** 23 Sep 2004, 08:51 pm »

Quote from: orthobiz

Hey amp and nathan:
I'm loving the initial sound of the DAC1 hooked up to my Toshiba 3950. I'm confused. Is this Benchmark a good thing or a bad thing or an unnecessary thing. Am I experiencing the placebo effect? I don't have any Diana Krall, so I can't tell what kind of fruit she has between her teeth but everything else so far sure sounds sweet!biz

To me it seems like a very good, albeit potentially unnecessary thing depending on what you may already have. For end users, that is.

Wait a minute orthobiz, you don't have any Diana Krall?! This monster is not human! To the gallows with this foul wretch!

(joke)

Beezer · « **Reply #21 on:** 23 Sep 2004, 09:24 pm »

You should be able to check the manual of your transport/CD/DVD player to see what digital signals it will output. Some will only output up to 16/48, while other will do 24/96, and not just the high end, proprietary stuff. For instance, I believe Pioneer makes players that will output 2 channel 24/96 signals. I don't think the P.O.S. Toshiba player will do it though, at least mine from a few years back didn't...

Beez

orthobiz · « **Reply #22 on:** 23 Sep 2004, 10:05 pm »

Meanwhile, without hijacking the thread, seems like Diana Krall is everywhere. I am historically one of the biggest Costello fans out there so I better hightail it to my retailer and get some. Any quick suggestions for the uninitiated on where to start? Do I need to do a Terry Thomas fruit-pit-in-the-diastasis test to determine if my Benchmark is better than my Tosh's DAC? Which fruits should I buy besides strawberry and kiwi?

biz

nathanm · « **Reply #23 on:** 23 Sep 2004, 10:58 pm »

I know next to nothing about Krall's music (except that she herself is quite fetching looking) but my guess is that the reason she is such a big hit with the hifi crowd is that her albums must be wonderfully recorded and that they will most likely sound great even if you don't have a fancy pants outboard DAC. Maybe?

You are probably right Beezer, I'd bet my Toshiba doesn't give you the good 1s and 0s. I'll have to see if my friend still has the manual to check.

Is it just me or would having a full-res digital out on these SACD or DVD players really encourage piracy? I mean, how would you do it anyway? Jack it right into a DVD-R or something? I dunno, seems like it would be a bit tedious. Would it have high speed dubbing?! Heh!

markC · « **Reply #24 on:** 25 Sep 2004, 02:05 pm »

Quote from: orthobiz

Meanwhile, without hijacking the thread, seems like Diana Krall is everywhere. I am historically one of the biggest Costello fans out there so I better hightail it to my retailer and get some. Any quick suggestions for the uninitiated on where to start? Do I need to do a Terry Thomas fruit-pit-in-the-diastasis test to determine if my Benchmark is better than my Tosh's DAC? Which fruits should I buy besides strawberry and kiwi?

biz

Try Live In Paris. Has some great dynamics and some fun, upbeat tunes.

orthobiz · « **Reply #25 on:** 25 Sep 2004, 02:07 pm »

Thanks for the Krall suggestion. Right now enjoying the Benchmark fed through the Musical Fidelity X-10v3. Bass presence much tighter.

biz

audiojerry · « **Reply #26 on:** 27 Sep 2004, 01:02 am »

Another nice review job, Nathan, but you need to work on your sense of humor

One observation: I have found that hearing differences in dacs is limited by the quality of the transport, as well as the wire. Way back when I had a $600 transport, I auditioned a $6k dac comparing it to my $1k dac, and couldn't hear any difference. But when I auditioned both dacs using a much higher quality transport, the difference was quite apparent.

Looks like you've been growing your system since we last spoke.

nathanm · « **Reply #27 on:** 27 Sep 2004, 03:50 am »

Thanks Jerry! Yeah, I've got a few new things. The Gallos were a definite good purchase, dents and loose posts aside. It's just a shame that the Gallo IIIs don't look as cool.

Benchmark's whole selling point on this unit is it's immunity to jitter and the measurements show that it doesn't care if your digital cable is 10 feet long or 1000 feet. I was using Canare RG-6 solid core coax. It sounded good no matter what kind or length of cable I put in it. I guess if it takes more than $1500 for a transport (which is what I paid for my used Shanling) to hear a difference then I'd have to give up, there'd be much better uses for my money. But hey, if someone wants to bring over something like this behemoth I'm game!

I agree orthobiz, the bass seemed tighter for me too, but it was so close as to not be a big concern. I had a friend compare the two and he heard a difference, but it was subtle as well and he couldn't put his finger on it. Personally I think this is a good thing and shows how neutral and uncolored it is, which is of course the design goal.

I'd be interested in Benchmark's ADCs probably, as I am not too fond of the converters in my ADAT, the drums always come back sounding a little bit weaker.

JLM · « **Reply #28 on:** 21 Nov 2004, 02:45 pm »

nathanm,

What transport did you use? Did you compare the Benchmark to the Shanling tube output? Did you use the Benchmark's volume control in place of a pre-amp?

thanks

nathanm · « **Reply #29 on:** 21 Nov 2004, 05:27 pm »

I used my Toshiba DVD player as well as the Shanling. Yes, I did compare with the Shanling's outputs as well. However I've historically not heard any significant differences between the tube and SS outputs on the Shanling by itself, though. To say nothing of the DAC's worth in and of itself, it became clear to me that I needn't spend too much time and money on outboard DACs as what I already have was satisfactory.

Yes, I also compared the fixed and variable outputs. But I must say, those volume trims are one of the coolest features ever!

If it had a knob instead of a screwhole it'd be the cat's pajamas.

JLM · « **Reply #30 on:** 21 Nov 2004, 10:54 pm »

Nathanm,

I'm trying hard to intepret your findings of the Benchmark.

Did you use a Toshiba 3950/3960? I know it's loved at AA, but they're cheap to the extreme! As mentioned above, how can you make a useful comparison without using a really good transport? As you haven't been able to hear any difference in DACs, my guess is that whatever Toshiba you're using, it is the limiting factor.

Aside from the issues of making a valid comparison, it seems that your conclusion is that the Benchmark made a cheap DVD comparable to a $2000 (retail) CD player and it can also eliminate the need for a pre-amp in a CD only system. Not bad for $975 with its apparent build quality and being made in the USA.

I've got a slightly used Sony DVP-S7700 on the way and am looking for a good DAC. Note that modded, the S7700 can serve as a very highly regarded transport. So I've got the speakers and transport in place for a new system and need to fill in the blanks. The Benchmark could fill a couple of those blanks. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

nathanm · « **Reply #31 on:** 21 Nov 2004, 11:10 pm »

All I can tell you is that I bought the thing, tried it in both of my two systems and felt that it was not worth keeping. My friend heard a minor difference but we generally agreed that it was not that big a deal. It's a good product but I didn't need it. I would suggest you try it out for yourself. The man I spoke with at Benchmark was very friendly and helpful.

Rocket · « **Reply #32 on:** 21 Nov 2004, 11:34 pm »

Hi Natham,

I agree there are only small differences between dacs imo.

I sent my perpetual technologies p3a dac back to modwright to upgrade from level 1 to level 2 and put my modded pioneer pds 507 back in the loop. It did sound quite good but the p3a is better.

Do you still have the shanling cdp? Are you going to mod it?

Regards

Rod

nathanm · « **Reply #33 on:** 21 Nov 2004, 11:56 pm »

Quote

Do you still have the shanling cdp? Are you going to mod it?

Oh yeah, it's a keeper. I thought about modding it, but first it needs to be fixed! I did buy those ridiculously overpriced tubes they're shilling for it awhile back. What a gaddamn waste that was! (a hundred bucks for two lousy input tubes, what was I thinking!? Sheesh!) Anyway, it has some annoying operational glitches which I once intended to get repaired but it's one of those things that wasn't terribly pressing. (cuts off the start of track 1 when it first spins up)

Some of those Shanling mod packages are crazy money, more than the actual player! I would hope and assume they offer improvements, but there's no way to go back or compare with the stock model. I'd be happy to audition whatever anyone else thinks is a great transport but I've reached a point where I am not going to waste any more money experimenting on the DAC issue. I think my setup sounds good and the weaknesses I attribute to acoustics. What I should really do is downgrade some of my gear and sink the money into a trailerload of rigid fibgerglass, which is what my square room really could use. *sigh* But I itch just thinking about it...ugh!

Rocket · « **Reply #34 on:** 22 Nov 2004, 12:04 am »

Hi Nathan,

You should contact Bluesky (he hangs at the aussie pie and aspen forums), he has a shanling cdp and has done some mods to it. He added a tentlabs clock and some other mods.

regards

rod

andy_c · « **Reply #35 on:** 22 Nov 2004, 03:39 am »

Quote from: nathanm

Doh! What's the point then? I thought it was only SACD's DSD-stream which Sony was being a prick about? Are there any DVD players which don't do this and give the full digital out?

With DVD-A I believe there are legal issues that prevent manufacturers from putting out the full sample rate at the digital outputs, though I'm not familiar with the gory legal details. But the AIX disc that comes with the Benchmark is actually a DVD-V, not a DVD-A. Audio-only DVD-V's are sometimes confusingly referred to as DAD's. One of the audio formats called out in the DVD-V spec is 24 bit, 96 kHz uncompressed PCM. That's what the AIX discs are. For DVD-V, there are no legal issues preventing the 24/96 signal from being output to the digital out. If your player doesn't do so, it's purely a technical issue, and I'm pretty sure most, if not all players will do this.

Since DVD-V already allows for 24/96 uncompressed PCM, why did they even bother with DVD-A and SACD in the first place? Copy protection. So sitting under everybody's noses is this fantastic, non-copy-protected high res digital audio medium, DVD-V. Bummer isn't it?

ampgalore · « **Reply #36 on:** 22 Nov 2004, 04:00 am »

So I guess there are no commercially available DVD-V audio discs?

Bummer.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #37 on:** 22 Nov 2004, 04:04 am »

Copy protection was a big issue for the labels, but without MLP you couldn't do Hi-Rez multichannel with regular DVD- there's not enough room on the disc. A cynic may say it was done for strictly mercenary reasons (and this is probably true where DSD/SACD is concerned), but the MC is the biggest deal to me.

nathanm · « **Reply #38 on:** 22 Nov 2004, 04:10 am »

The AIX disc is dual-sided; DVD-Video on one, DVD-Audio on the other. With my current player I was only able to play the video side though. The DVD-A side has 96KHz 5.1 and 192Khz stereo tracks on it. But of course it would be nice if that appeared at the digital out of ALL players.

If the industry continues treating their customers like criminals and cripples the hardware like this then there really is no point in outboard DACs that I can see.

But it looks like the DAC1 was meant to be a pro audio product, wherein it makes more sense. Much like the ART DIO it's one of those items that seems to have caught on in the hifi realm.

mgalusha · « **Reply #39 on:** 22 Nov 2004, 04:14 am »

Quote from: ampgalore

So I guess there are no commercially available DVD-V audio discs?

Bummer.

Classic Records released a few several years ago. Some are still available. I have 5 or 6 of them and they all sound excellent. Chesky used to produce them as well. I have one of the Chesky's and it sounds very good. I think the AIX disks have a 24/96 PCM track playable on a DVD-V player as well. I don't have any of their disks (yet...), so I can't say how they sound but are supposedly very good.

Edit: Nathan's post clears up my limited knowledge of the AIX disks. Thanks.