AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Acoustics Circle => Topic started by: Big Red Machine on 2 Sep 2016, 11:56 pm
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I'm getting closer to finishing this room. It has been the step child project in this house - lack of funds after putting in the new kitchen, lack of time, I'm tired, and it has been work as opposed to fun going through all the traps of getting the behind-the-drywall items right.
Paint is done, floor is down, trim is needed, tons of acoustic features are just starting to be fabricated. Lots of details still required. Haven't even wired the main circuit up yet with that very difficult 10 gauge wire.
Goals of the room design:
Quiet - don't let it escape, don't let it in. Family room directly above.
Modes - try not to have compounding resonances
Diffusion is king - trap only what is fundamentally required
Anchor the speakers to the earth through the concrete - float the rest
I don't want to see my rack
Create an esoteric and tasteful 2 channel getaway
Teaser photo of what the pre-construction room looked like:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149619)
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The cleaned out room to start the fun....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149645)
I have NEVER had a room build that did not require farting around with objects that interrupted clean lines of construction. Elec panel, ducting, gas lines, water meter, fireplace cleanout, steel beams, and support posts.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149646)
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Too bad about the pipe column. Were you able to relocate/eliminate it?
Fortunately I had a new build (that I designed) so the room was close to ideally shaped with no columns, windows, pumps, heaters, electrical panels, furnace, etc. to deal with.
My biggest mistakes were both related to the ceiling: 1.) Using recessed can light fixtures. Even with air tight, rated to be in contact with insulation, and 12 inches of loose insulation sound transmits up and down. 2.) Contractor refused to float the ceiling drywall via gauge metal furring strips. He said he'd done "sound rooms" before. Yeah right.
Neither are a huge deal (the room is well removed from bedrooms). I could come back and replace the cans with track lights or wall sconces and apply another layer of drywall with Green Glue.
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I'd agree with recessed fixtures. In my old house, I was going to put a pool table under where I put the recessed cans but then changed my mind. So I just left them.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=26459)
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You can see one of the recessed cans to the left of the soffit - had two on each side. I also recessed the rack (and CD and DVD storage units) into the unfinished part of the basement. Originally has a 64 inch old rear projection TV where the screen was.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=43103)
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Pete, is this the same house you were putting the MLV in? Are you building two rooms for audio?
Best,
Ed
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Pete, is this the same house you were putting the MLV in? Are you building two rooms for audio?
Best,
Ed
Same room.
And no can lights whatsoever into the ceiling, only 2 in the beam framing under the MLV.
Columns are gone - good story there.
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I removed all the loose insulation along the cap plate and replaced with 2" thick OC pink foam:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149768)
Then I glued 3/4 inch plywood to the concrete floor for the speakers to sit on. This anchors them solidly to the earth.
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A 3 x 4 foot pad for each speaker to accommodate whatever the future may bring.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149783)
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Then OC pink fanfold insulating foam at 1/4 inch under 9/16 OSB everywhere else...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149784)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149785)
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What's the intended purpose for the fan fold insulation?
(We put something called Insultarp under our entire basement slab that is equivalent to 2 inches of styrofoam (the only way to achieve a 5 star EPA energy rating).
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Cushion
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Walls were covered in 1.5 inch OC pink foam insulation before the walls were studded up. That gives an overall R22 wall.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149817)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149818)
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Framing the walls up is easy with the OSB floor. No hammering into concrete required. Only the occasional nail to flatten out any abnormalities in the OSB laying down here and there.
I used 10 inch long screws to attach the top of the walls to the cap, or top plate of the cement, instead of to the floor joists above. I was trying at every turn to keep the walls detached from the floor above.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149823)
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You can see how the MLV is above the wall frame so the area of the ceiling is as completely covered and separate from the walls as I could get her.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149826)
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The room next door is a basement family room that I wired for Atmos while doing the kitchen above it. I can do 5.1.4 in there now. I added a small kitchenette to it in place of the closet that was in the partially used alcove below the kitchen table before.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149828)
I need a finished pic of that area - later.
Back in the 2 channel room, the wall to the family room next door had one layer of 1/2 drywall. I added another layer of 5/8 with greenglue along that wall just for insurance and to not take up too much of floor space I need for this room.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149829)
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I've had huge successes this weekend completing corner bass traps and another matching feature in the room. Very freaking cool. I was having nightmares I could pull these off and I did. I also put up a 8/10 utility shed on Saturday! No rest for the wicked!!
Can you say +-16 inch deep by 24" wide base traps!!
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... Can you say +-16 inch deep by 24" wide base traps!!
Pics or it didn't happen. :wink:
Quite awesome, Pete!!
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Pete,
Nice progress, thanks for the pics.
Are you going to use RSIC clips? Furring hat channels? Single row of studs? Or double row of studs with space between the rows of studs?
How many doors are there entering the room?
How big is the room (when all is said and done) ?
Best,
Anand.
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Great build progress and interesting choices made. All in line with your stated goals of sound transmission prevention verging on sound proofing.
In my build we were less focused on true sound proofing. I was not able to use resilient channel for the ceiling and did use pot lights. IC boxes for them. Yes their is some sound leakage out of the room but the safe n sound in the joist bays and solid core door at the entrance were all very much worth the effort and cost.
We used Delta FL and 5/8 t&g plywood for our subfloor. Warm and dry so far.
Looking like great progress in your room!
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I'm much farther along right now. Just catching you up on all the work so far. I might be done in 3 or 4 weekends from now. One is destroyed with a trip.
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Pete,
Nice progress, thanks for the pics.
Are you going to use RSIC clips? Furring hat channels? Single row of studs? Or double row of studs with space between the rows of studs?
How many doors are there entering the room?
How big is the room (when all is said and done) ?
Best,
Anand.
3 walls are concrete. One is part basement storage and bsmt family/HT room next door. Single studs for concrete walls, mass loaded vinyl, hat channel, double drywall, greenglue, etc.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149862)
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MLV on ceiling, wrapped around beam (notice both posts are gone/relocated), seams overlapped and taped.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149863)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149864)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149865)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149866)
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MLV is a real pain and expensive.
Hat channel came next.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149867)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149868)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149869)
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Wow. My back hurts for you.
Best,
Anand.
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You can see the green tape added to the hat channel.
No cans cut into the MLV anywhere.
Darn water meter chirps when water is used. So I am trying to make a bass trap out of it!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149870)
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Wow. My back hurts for you.
Best,
Anand.
I bought a drywall lift. :D
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Good progress.
The entire perimeter of my ceiling is a bass trap. Works great! Even then, nearly all the corners have bass traps, while everything else is diffusion! Remember the fiberglass behind the drywall and the drywall itself act as a limp membrane trap that helps with bass absorption less than 100 Hz.
Best,
Anand.
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Nice pictorial! I can't wait to see the finished product. :)
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How many doors are there entering the room?
How big is the room (when all is said and done) ?
Best,
Anand.
I added a second one for convenience in the back to the storage area. Didn't have to but thought it made sense down the road to have. It is an exterior insulated steel door that will get some additional deadening treatments.
Room started out at 16 wide, approx 20 deep, 8 high. Surprisingly the Bob Gold's calculator comes out better than expected when you see all the broad multiples of 4 here. When you plug in the actual values it has very few overlaps.
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Just realize that every door is a leak. I have only 1 spot for entering/exiting the room. It is a composition of 2 external solid core type doors, the first opens and you hit another, then you have to open the second door before sealing/closing the 1st door. It substantially reduces noise from the inside or outside from passing through. The doors are also additionally mass loaded and between the 1st and 2nd door I have an older set of GIK 244's hanging for even more noise attenuation. Door seals are everywhere.
Sound proofing is kind of like building an aquarium. The smallest crack and the water will spill through. Just like sound will. Seal all the cracks!
Best,
Anand.
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I laid the flooring over the rigid plywood pieces and then cut the outline of the plywood into the flooring. Then we glued the flooring directly to the plywood so it was solid under the speakers and the rest stayed floating over the OSB.
We taped the pieces and flipped them over to apply glue, then flipped them back down to set.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149926)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149927)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149928)
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Visitors on the front yard:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149965)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149966)
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In my searching for a nice choice of wire to use I discovered that the Handi-wire of old was preferred by many audiophools for its copper content. It was easy to find on Ebay and I grabbed 10/3 so I could have the option of side by side but separate circuits anytime I chose.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149967)
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Can you say badass bass trap?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149968)
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What's this partial view of something wicked to come? Hint; not a bass trap.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=149969)
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I probably wasn't clear on the composition of the ceiling:
From the inside upward---
1/2" drywall
green glue
1/2" drywall
Integrity gasket (green foam tape)
hat channel
RISC clips
MLV
Safe 'n Sound insulation
Floor above
The walls are 5/8" with Safe 'N Sound or OC pink in the cavities with 1.5" pink foam behind that glued to the concrete.
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Looks like you are doing it up right BRM, I look forward to seeing the finished product. I took an old 600 sq. ft. free standing garage last year and turned it into an audio room/ guest house. One wall is a double wall with separated studs, the other 3 are hat channel and 5/8" drywall. Blown in very dense insulation behind that. Then I used double pane windows with dissimilar glass, just one door into the building. I used a cheap home depot metal door with foam core. I can turn the music up extremely loud, go outside and barely hear a thing. The one place the sound comes out is the door. It's still pretty good but nothing like walking around the rest of the building. The really nice thing is it's dead quite in the room which is nice byproduct of all I did.
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Math. Whatcha gonna do, can't escape it!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150167)
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As I mentioned before, lots of screwing around is still the order of the day.
Here's another teaser of an inspirational piece I found on the web. If it comes off as planned it will be very cool. Three pieces and they are NOT bass traps.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150168)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150169)
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Pete,
Why did you choose laminate and not carpet? When is your estimated completion date?
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Pete,
Why did you choose laminate and not carpet? When is your estimated completion date?
I have several area rugs not being used, so I will re-use my white rug.
I really only get work done on the weekends. Next weekend is shot, so I am at least 3 weeks away. Baseboard, treatments, paint touch up, wire the 20 amp circuit, rack, gear, lights, so lots to do.
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I've been spray painting lately - finally got the hang of this new Wagner electric spray painter. Thin the paint and set the flow to the lowest it will go at a reasonable pressure output!
I have 10 of the older GIK hard plastic D1 ? diffusors and a bunch of reused frames for OC703 I am painting to match the wall and ceiling colors so they blend in.
I also did a quickie layout of the first reflection points on walls and ceiling.
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Here's a teaser photo of a contraption I built. It looks like it will function properly now that it is installed. My smart ass son is posing as Adonis behind it right after we assembled it 2 weeks ago. He's 6' 4" btw.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150489)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150490)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150491)
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Making progress.
Today I hung some ceiling diffusors, finished all the base molding and shoe mold, trimmed the window, and made an inner door for the outer door entrance so I could have extra silence and a place to hang treatments. Really hated the idea of tapping into the solid oak door with a screw or bracket.
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Very cool. I'm waiting in anticipation to see what acoustical contraption you are building! Perhaps a heavily improved and inspired GIK Polyfusor :scratch:
Best,
Anand.
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First, cheap pump for updates. :thumb:
Second,
It was easy to find on Ebay and I grabbed 10/3 so I could have the option of side by side but separate circuits anytime I chose.
Just what do you mean? Are you considering using two legs for hot and the third for the return of both (or vice versa)? I would not recommend doing that nor do I think it will pass code or an inspection. Just install two full runs. Much safer.
Or...am I missing something?
Oh, and thanks for the tip on Handiwire as I am needing to upgrade the dedicated circuit, circuit breaker, receptacles, the whole power delivery system from the breaker box to the wall sockets for the stereo. All in anticipation of a high current amp I'm presently in negotiations for.
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First, cheap pump for updates. :thumb:
Second,
Just what do you mean? Are you considering using two legs for hot and the third for the return of both (or vice versa)? I would not recommend doing that nor do I think it will pass code or an inspection. Just install two full runs. Much safer.
Or...am I missing something?
I am not doing it, but have the option by leaving the red unconnected in the boxes and in the panel. The red would have to be on the opposite phase. Right now a moot point. I'm waiting to see if these circuits are noisy to see if I need to utilize both phases for different devices.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69176
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I see...I had no idea that was done but I understand after checking that link, thanks.
Were you able to get the new circuits off the phase that has motors, such as furnace, refers, & freezers? I've read that that is generally desirable.
On the Handiwire, I can only find 25 feet of 10-3 for $73.61 on Amazon. I could not find any 10-3 on eBay. Got a link to your source?
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On the Handiwire, I can only find 25 feet of 10-3 for $73.61 on Amazon. I could not find any 10-3 on eBay. Got a link to your source?
I got lucky on Ebay. I only paid about $25 for 50 feet.
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There is a light at the end of the tunnel. It might be a freight train. Let's hope not.
I will start populating the room with gear this week while I await my art panels.
I'll have to get all the ethernet connections going and find the spikes for the rack, etc. Digging through boxes is fun after a move.
After the system is running I'll have to check for squeaks and rattles. Always a fun time.
I will say, even an empty room looks pretty exciting at this point! 8)
I am very nervous how it will sound and what the room sweeps will look like. :roll:
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Some spot panels for the ceiling first reflections that hit the beam running across the center of the room. I am going to wait until sound is running to place them.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150943)
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I had Cerious Technologies make me graphene power cables using some of my Acrolink connectors.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=150944)
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So I did some more digging on the Handiwire. Seems Essex Electrical Products was acquired by Southwire which included Essex's manufacturing plant so I guess look for Southwire brand residential wire.
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Bob Gold's site says my actual room ratios are:
1:2.02:2.58
1:1.963:2.593 is ideal
That means I was 5 inches too wide and 1 inch too deep!
I'll have lots of issues I was not wanting from 40 to 90 hz. Hopefully I can set up and run some sweeps this weekend.
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Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" gives a range of acceptable values, so don't sweat it. Worry more about the acoustic isolation details in the room.
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I finally fumbled my way through setting up the mic and gear and REW to make some room sweeps. Rough first cuts with the mic in the chair and me sitting on the left side of the chair making no attempt at getting out of the way.
It is easier to see the graph at this setting for the nasty peaks and dips. I am still missing 6 panels on the walls but that shouldn't affect my low end issues seen here.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151753)
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Are you ready?
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Unassuming entrance in the small area at the bottom of the basement stairs:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152059)
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Since I did not want to putz with the solid oak door in any way I made an inner door out of plywood so I could attach to it instead. I'll eventually get to adding some door sweeps/seals to it.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152060)
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Welcome!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152061)
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One of my inspiration ideas. A large polycylindrical diffuser that I scaled to my wall size.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152062)
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Here is my scaled down version. I built it in 3 pieces, put some rock wool in places I could, and added a rope light inside it:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152066)
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Front of the room. Now you can see what my contraption was intended to be - a way to hide my rack. It is pivoted by a pole on one side and wheels under the frame. The flash penetrates the brown cloth. I sit and listen with the sconces and diffuser on so I only see brown monoliths.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152069)
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The rack has been made taller. I found the original source for Adona racks extruded aluminum in 60 mm wide and bought some for dirt cheap to add more shelves.
You can see that I turned the Stealth unit backward to easily get to the AC plugs.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152070)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152071)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152072)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152073)
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Dedicated 20 amp service? You bet. 3 duplexes on this circuit. Left to right I can adjust the sound with 3 different outlets: Cardas AG, Furutech GTX-gold, and Synergistic Research UEF/Graphene. I wanted to match the graphene in my power cables from Cerious Cables so right now I am breaking that in.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152074)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152075)
Wired with 10 gauge Handi-wire.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152076)
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The right side of the room:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152077)
One of two Salk alters:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152078)
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Left rear of the room where the power panel and water mains reside:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152079)
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RIght rear corner where I put an angled doorway into the storage area. I put 2 OC703 panels on the door with super magnets and then put the art panel over them with fish line. It is an exterior door so it is sealed and insulated.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152080)
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Two panels, the piano and guitar are from AcoustiMac and are stock units. They are very nice for the money. They are backed with luan plywood and packed densely with rockwool. 3 times heavier than a GIK panel.
The other 4 panels I had made by GIK after I purchased the high rez photos from iStock photos. Shelley helped me push these through the process as they were the last pieces to the puzzle I need to complete the look.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152081)
My mega bass traps in the corners are 28 inches wide and are stuffed with 14 inches+ of rockwool and OC703.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152082)
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And for fun and different look I put a section of exterior faux stone siding in-between the traps and rack.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152083)
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Best sounding room I ever built.
Prodigious amounts of bass.
300 watts per woofer really make it happen. Class A on the top end and we're cooking.
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Gear:
HAL MS-2 server
5 TB external drive
JRiver
Bricasti M-1
TRL Dude - dual Shallcos and super duper tube set
Wells Inamorata solid state amp
Audio Magic Stealth XXX power conditioner
5 QRT devices - Audio magic and Kemp units
Nordost Sort Cones under the dac, pc, and amp
Speaker cables and power cables from Cerious Technologies
right now using Elrod IC's and Audio Magic hybrid ribbon IC's
Digital cable is TotalDac
I'll probably order a uRendu this week. I also have not hooked up the fiber optic isolator system in the ethernet stream yet.
Diffusers by GIK (the older hard plastic versions of D1's, not the foam units), Real Traps, RPG, and Auralex.
There are probably 6 boxes minimum of OC703 and rockwool in the room.
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Holy cow!
That looks like a commercial space - in all the right ways.
Amazing attention to detail and defines what an enthusiast can achieve with a ton of planning and work.
Great stuff. :thumb:
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Lookin' great, BRM!
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Thank you. I listened right through a whole bunch of tunes I would normally skip over last night. And my wife is not complaining about the bass that is noticeable from above. Shew!
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Yeah I have issues with bass traveling up 2 stories to the bedroom... Its barely anything, but of course she has to complain anyway!
Nice job, but no analog?
That is an external door to the outside from your basement? Must be nice I could use that to get the unapproved friends in, and out on listening night :-)
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Nice work BRM. After you enjoy listening to some tunes for a few weeks, put a mic in your listening position, and show us some REW graphs...
Have fun in your new room!
Best,
Anand.
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Not an exterior access, an exterior door because they are steel, sealed, and insulated inside.
Yeah I have issues with bass traveling up 2 stories to the bedroom... Its barely anything, but of course she has to complain anyway!
Nice job, but no analog?
That is an external door to the outside from your basement? Must be nice I could use that to get the unapproved friends in, and out on listening night :-)
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Nice work BRM. After you enjoy listening to some tunes for a few weeks, put a mic in your listening position, and show us some REW graphs...
Have fun in your new room!
Best,
Anand.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151753)
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Hard to imagine that way back when, the speakers were nothing more than a cad sketch:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152303)
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Some photos in my typical listening mode:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152431)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152432)
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This build is incredibly awesome!
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VERY inspirational BRM!!! What a build. Now I need to find that derned pot of gold!!!
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Do the LED lights on your Innamorata turn off or is your amp just not on in that last pic?? On my Signature they are on if the amp is on.
Jason
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No lights on my Wells. Just a meter that is not lit. The red coming through is the Bricasti and I think I can turn it off. I'm toying with the idea of covering that tower with something hardshell so it acts like a giant diffuser. I may try some cardboard as an experiment someday.
Do the LED lights on your Innamorata turn off or is your amp just not on in that last pic?? On my Signature they are on if the amp is on.
Jason
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VERY inspirational BRM!!! What a build. Now I need to find that derned pot of gold!!!
Outside of the gear the room certainly cost more than just finishing a standard room in the house. I have not added up the costs but I believe it is north of $3000. The damned MLV was $500 alone.
My wife is very happy with the results of the soundproofing. She sits directly above and even with the tv off she says it does not bother her one bit.
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No lights on my Wells. Just a meter that is not lit. The red coming through is the Bricasti and I think I can turn it off. I'm toying with the idea of covering that tower with something hardshell so it acts like a giant diffuser. I may try some cardboard as an experiment someday.
Ah, I see. Personally, I don't mind the lights of the gear showing through...
A solid surface of that size and into the room that much might do some weird things to your soundstage. I had some much smaller 'standard sized' poly-fusers between my speakers at one point and did not like what they did. Of course all speakers and rooms are different.
What about a few more vertical members in the frame work, sort of crating a poly/QR hybrid?
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I read this whole thread and am flabbergasted and in awe of the thought and work put into this room. Kudos! I bet it sounds great. :thumb:
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I read this whole thread and am flabbergasted and in awe of the thought and work put into this room. Kudos! I bet it sounds great. :thumb:
I appreciate the kudos because I am a planner. I made many a sketch and doodle and when the kitchen was done I went right to this project.
I'm putting up motion lights on the garage today so moving on to winterizing projects. Put a new bagging system on my lawn tractor yesterday (32 trees in my backyard). And I struggled with, but finally got the uRendu installed in the stereo yesterday. It sounds pretty good plugged directly into my dac so not using the TotalDac USB cable at the moment.
I hope to run new rooms sweeps soon with this speaker location to see if it is "different" than where I started the placement adventure.
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Funny about the garage - I have purchased but not yet installed a Leviton motion sensor switch for the garage overhead light, following complaints from my wife about driving into a "dark" garage. There is a light on the opener, but she would like more lights to come on.
Agree about the planning. I have a notebook/sketchbook I use for all my notes and planning for the various house projects!
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Most well thought out room that I have seen. Congratulations!
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Thanks. One thing I did forget is to wire in a smoke detector to the others in the network. So now I will be adding an independent unit. I see they now offer wireless units with a bluetooth-like protocol.
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Smoke detector not required by code if not considered a bedroom, but if so deemed one would also required immediately outside the room.
We have 19 detectors, 9 of the regular ones thanks to the electrical inspector, after we'd roughed in commercial grade detectors that he wouldn't accept as they weren't wired to the panel at time of rough in.
The commercial ones came with our security system and are remotely monitored. They use a central battery, that gives a humane warning when it's nearly dead but has a super loud horn (so it's in a closet). They don't use a radioactive element, so don't wear out or need replacement. They're also "smarter" won't go off from burnt toast yet can be placed in the furnace room (why we have one more of them than the regular ones). The regular ones all got pulled the first time one "stupidly" went off.
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Some newer room plots with the speakers out from the walls pretty far. Forgot the distances. Bass response has changed slightly.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153335)
Spectrogram - lots of low freq energy
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153336)
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I'm never really sure how to interpret the RT plots:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153337)
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I'm not necessarily proud of this waterfall but it sounds so darn good in the room I am not sure what to adjust:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153338)
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I overlayed the old plot with the newer one where the newer has the speakers farther into the room. I kept more bass response. Still have that nasty 169 hz bump.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153339)
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BRM,
Let's compartmentalize. Can you perform a sweep limited from let's say 15Hz - 350 Hz, without any smoothing, while making sure you are able to see the peaks and nulls? You'll have to play with the zoom feature on REW a bit. I take it that the mic is at the listening position, and your speakers have been set for best staging and imaging.
Extend the waterfall "time" to like 400-500 msec for the 15-350Hz bandwidth so you can see all the tails decay into the noise floor.
Bass is 30% of overall system performance. Once we improve that, you should be able to hear improvements in staging, tonality and so on even up into the midrange/treble.
The RT60/30 plots are hard to interpret in small room acoustics as they were meant for large room acoustics. Nevertheless, you have a "dry" sounding room. Lots of arguments abound but 0.3 is nice, greater than or equal to 0.5 is a bit too lively/bright sounding, and 0.1 and 0.2 is dry. It's enormously difficult to get 0.2 at 20 Hz-100 Hz levels! But it is not necessary to have low RT's in the bass region. Less than 0.5 is good. What RT level is noteworthy depends on the frequency range we are talking about. In any case you don't want wildly different RT numbers at 300 Hz versus 3khz for example even if your FR is flat. Redo your measurement on REW so that you are concentrating on 15 Hz to 1khz, and you'll see what I mean.
An excellent read is this: http://www.hedbackdesignedacoustics.com/files/QuickSiteImages/AMS_for_Stereo_List._Rms.pdf
Try hard to digest the above link. You will reap the rewards in doing so :thumb:
Best,
Anand.
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These are scaled versions of what I had in stereo recording, not left, then right.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153352)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153353)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153354)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153355)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153356)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153357)
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Okay. The area between 100 Hz to 300 Hz has to do with the distance of your speaker to the front wall and side walls. It also has to do with the ceiling and floor but you can't change that. So measure each speaker alone, then start moving the speaker around or just move your mic around if you can't or won't move your speakers. The problem you are having between 100-300 Hz has to do with SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference).
See here: http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/
Read and digest the above thoroughly. Then apply what you have learned. Rinse and repeat :wink:
We'll deal with your issues below 100 Hz later. They aren't too bad.
1/3 octave smoothing below 300Hz hides all the warts. Don't do it when you are trying to analyze or hone in on the source of the problem :thumb:
Best,
Anand.
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1/3 octave smoothing below 300Hz hides all the warts. Don't do it when you are trying to analyze or hone in on the source of the problem :thumb:
Well I did that because the above reference also did it so you could easily see if you are within a 10 db window. Mine is 11 db.
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Okay. The area between 100 Hz to 300 Hz has to do with the distance of your speaker to the front wall and side walls.
There is not much room to move them. A tighter grouping pulls them even more away from rear and side but puts them in my lap.
I will have to play with the crossover and gain of the woofer boxes perhaps.
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There is not much room to move them. A tighter grouping pulls them even more away from rear and side but puts them in my lap.
I will have to play with the crossover and gain of the woofer boxes perhaps.
There is one solution but it's not an option I'm sure. Speakers.
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There is not much room to move them. A tighter grouping pulls them even more away from rear and side but puts them in my lap.
I will have to play with the crossover and gain of the woofer boxes perhaps.
Ok. Have you pushed them closer to the front wall to see?
Here is what I did. Take it as a learning exercise. I measured each speaker individually. First with it flush against the front wall. Then I moved it forward in 4-6 in increments and made the same measurements (15-400 Hz). I concentrated on the area from 100-400Hz as I knew SBIR would wreck havoc. I did the same thing with the speaker flush against the side wall. Repeated the same sets of measurements for the opposite speaker. Then measure them together. Hopefully, the distances of each speaker to their respective front and side walls are symmetrical but you might find that the overall 2ch response is better with one speaker 2 in closer to a boundary than the other, for example. After you find a spot where the midbass is as good as it can be (and your imaging/staging isn't compromised), you can optionally, start playing with 4 in and 6 in thick absorbers on the front and side wall immediately behind and around the speaker to improve the measured response. Even the floor! I draw a line from the seated listening position to the speaker and make sure at least my ceiling is treated over that line. My floor is carpeted, but you can lay treatments there too if you want!
Your deep but narrow dip at 80Hz is not really an issue as it is pretty much inaudible with music.
The area between 20-35 Hz that appears boosted may have to do with any LF boost in the Rythmik plate amp, but that's a plain guess on my part.
In addition, turning off the Rythmik sub section and making the above measurements can tell us which drivers occupy which frequency ranges. Then you can play with how the Rythmik's crossover to the main module but check with Salk on that first. The fact of the matter is that getting perfect bass in the same space where imaging/staging are important is extraordinarily difficult. I've done it, but I did it in a way that you would find sac religious :wink:
And goosing up and playing with the EQ of the woofer boxes electronically is an absolute last resort. Unfortunately, many manufacturers use that as the first as most 2ch fellas are unwilling/unable to do what you have already done. That is, build an acoustically treated room :thumb:
My comment earlier on 1/3 octave smoothing was rhetorical as there are probably a few newbies who are reading this thread. Still, 1/3 octave smoothing is nice to give you reassurance that "enough is enough."
Best,
Anand.
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I had less suck-out at 80 hz back in original speaker location when they were closer to rear and side walls. Peaks are more spread apart, but 80 hz is better.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=153464)
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One of the nagging things I designed into the speakers were the spikes between cabinets. They would rattle because they were nearly impossible to keep level. I applied goop into the cups and let it almost set up and then would set the tops down to squish it out some more but they would eventually rattle again.
I tried various isolation devices and even had Herbies iso cups with wooden balls in place but is was too unstable for me.
FInally I bull-dogged a less slippery solution so if bumped the tops would not slide off the bottoms using rubber squares on sorbothane sheet. The sticks very nicely and also makes the gap between pieces smaller for a better look.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154230)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154231)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154232)
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What's with all the stuff for sale? Another redo of the system?
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So before I install my Gaia's onto the speakers I wanted to see if I could treat or adjust the the room to get rid of the 38 hz suckout and 80 hz bump.
I had a nice phone call with someone at Rythmik today and we tossed around some ideas and he was very helpful in making sure I set up my Exotica amps correctly(crossover, slope, phase).
I was experiencing the above problems that looked like this and was giving me boomy bass. Sure I could turn it down but the room modes were piling up and gain wasn't going to fix it.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172378)
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I have been through many movements of the speakers to nearfield arrangements and back out, etc. I also found a guide by Vandersteen that was very easy to follow and it gave me some nice sound and wide soundstage. While close to Cardas, his method was a little different and iterative. But the room modes remained.
So one suggestion was to measure the woofers to make sure they were flat. And they are:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172379)
Setting the crossover to 80 hz is important based on the roll off you see they have.
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So I measured all the corners of the room, the center of the speakers, the rack, my shoulders, and I even opened a door to see what would happen if pressure was relieved.
This is messy, but what started to become evident was the different responses around the room (I placed the mic on a box the same 14 inches off the ground at the corners of the room and my seat).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172380)
The left rear corner and my seat had the worst bass response. Then the light went on.
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So I placed the mic on my footstool and made a measurement and another at my left shoulder:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172381)
The red line is my ear and the blue is my feet. Gee, maybe my ears should be at my feet!?
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So I moved the speakers toward the front wall about the same distance as I moved my chair forward.
I took 12 db's out of the swing of the previous spl position (red previous and green new location). Coincidentally I am now at the 60% mark back from the front wall which is the old rule of thumb for where to sit.
It will be much easier to deal with the 500 hz bump than the 38 and 80 hz issues.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172382)
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Moving my body out of the lumpy zone in the room has clarified all the sound. As everyone knows, if you can clean up the bass, the adjacent bands sound cleaner as well. Soundstaging is decent. Height is okay. I don't have sound outside the speakers yet. Separation of instruments is still good.
I'll keep tweaking.
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Location, location, location!
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BRM,
I'm not sure how you did your recent measurements but the general recommendation is (assuming your mic is at the new listening position and height):
1) For frequencies above 300Hz, measure each speaker individually and use no more than 1/6th octave or 1/12th octave smoothing if you are honing in on problem areas. If you measure the speakers at the same time, then you will have phase interactions, comb filtering, and a very poor and inaccurate measurement in the higher frequencies (like a steep rolloff). You want to see how closely the right matches the left speaker in this region which will help with issues relating to imaging, timbre, staging, etc...specifically the area from 250Hz to 4khz would be of concern.
2) For frequencies below 300Hz, you should measure the speakers together preferably without smoothing or 1/24th octave max if you are honing in on problem areas. After you have dealt with the bass issues (whatever they may be, either SBIR related, modal related, etc...), you can then use 1/6th octave for an overall response which is how the ear tends to listen to this region.
As posted it appears you have a steep rolloff where 10khz is about 10 dB down and it is unclear on whether you measured out to 20khz or just put in a 10khz ceiling when you measured with REW.
Best,
Anand.
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BRM’s setup made it to Audiogon’s virtual system of the week!
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6230?utm_campaign=Saturday_Email_20180512&utm_content=saturday_email_20180512&utm_medium=email&utm_source=zaius&zm64_id=bnljYXZzcjIwMDBAeWFob28uY29t
Best,
Anand.
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BRM’s setup made it to Audiogon’s virtual system of the week!
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6230?utm_campaign=Saturday_Email_20180512&utm_content=saturday_email_20180512&utm_medium=email&utm_source=zaius&zm64_id=bnljYXZzcjIwMDBAeWFob28uY29t
Best,
Anand.
Sweet. :thumb:
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I see you changed speakers. What's up with that?!?! :o