IDA-8 ($995) features and spec

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oldzorki

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #300 on: 5 Mar 2016, 06:51 pm »
Maty,
Thank you for a wonderfull links, they explain a lot.
Looks like I will have no problem with loudness.


HiFiJeff

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #301 on: 5 Mar 2016, 08:35 pm »
Hello, oldzorki.

I think I can partially answer your question. I have never driven Gershmans with my IDA-8 (or any other amp), but my speakers are 83.5 dB sensitivity - though due to the series crossovers they are easier to drive than 'regular' low sensitivity speakers.

I've had a couple other amps drive these speakers, so I have a pretty good idea of how it compares (at least to the other amps anyway). I'd say that the IDA-8 does a decent job of powering my speakers if I am not trying to listen critically. To be fair, most of my music listening is non-critical because of my room, my habits, and my dear wife. It is only when I want to really listen, really pay attention to the recording that I realize the 100 watts isn't giving me all the speakers are asking for. Mind you, I'm not listening at unreasonably high levels either.

If I could re-engineer my IDA-8, I'd replace the 100w amp with the ST-10's amp [Would that make it an IDA-10?], or with a nice EL34 tube amp. Either mod would probably make me a pretty happy camper.

I really like my IDA-8 and I really enjoy its features. I have my Squeezebox Touch feeding it wifi from my Mac Mini, Bluetooth from either my iPad or iPhone, and my TV feed via optical. It's amazing how much this amp offers especially considering its very reasonable price.

If my speakers were 87 dB to 90+ dB, I would be enthusiastically telling you to rush out to buy an IDA-8 (because it's that good), and I wouldn't be telling you about its shortcomings.

Enjoy your search.

Michael

So with 94.5db Omega's speakers.  I am sure the IDA-8 would be amazing!

maty

Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #302 on: 5 Mar 2016, 08:56 pm »
A 100 watts amplifier is too much to 94.5 db speakers, I think. Dangerous.

10 or 20 watts from a good/clean class A amplifier... maybe is better idea.

HiFiJeff

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #303 on: 5 Mar 2016, 09:48 pm »
A 100 watts amplifier is too much to 94.5 db speakers, I think. Dangerous.

10 or 20 watts from a good/clean class A amplifier... maybe is better idea.

I don't think it would be too much,  I just wouldn't have to turn it up very much.  But funny you mention lower watt amplification as I am also considering a 2 watt set amp.

gregfisk

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #304 on: 6 Mar 2016, 08:11 pm »
I don't think it would be too much,  I just wouldn't have to turn it up very much.  But funny you mention lower watt amplification as I am also considering a 2 watt set amp.

I agree, you can never have enough power with an amp. You may get better sound with something with less power thou, just by the nature of the type of amp you are using. I believe more power is safer than too little power, you don't have to worry about the amp clipping and distorting which can cause way more damage that just pushing your speakers too hard.

oldzorki

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #305 on: 6 Mar 2016, 11:34 pm »
I agree, you can never have enough power with an amp. You may get better sound with something with less power thou, just by the nature of the type of amp you are using. I believe more power is safer than too little power, you don't have to worry about the amp clipping and distorting which can cause way more damage that just pushing your speakers too hard.
This is very true. I would like to see how this amp goes into clipping, however I was not able to find measurements and charts anywhere.
But I want it regardless. I really like engineering approach of NuPrime, and design IMHO is awesome.

mresseguie

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #306 on: 7 Mar 2016, 02:16 am »
oldzorki,

Jason Lim (Nuprime owner) is very forthcoming with information on his products. If he doesn't have the answer himself, he'll contact his engineers to get it and post it in his circle.

oldzorki

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #307 on: 7 Mar 2016, 01:45 pm »
oldzorki,

Jason Lim (Nuprime owner) is very forthcoming with information on his products. If he doesn't have the answer himself, he'll contact his engineers to get it and post it in his circle.
This will be intersting. Most digital amps measurements I have seen display fairly extreme behaviour at the point of clipping.
Mot manufactures do not like THD vs watts charts, as they do not represent behaviour under normal conditions and can be misleading.

John Casler

Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #308 on: 7 Mar 2016, 03:31 pm »
This will be intersting. Most digital amps measurements I have seen display fairly extreme behaviour at the point of clipping.
Mot manufactures do not like THD vs watts charts, as they do not represent behaviour under normal conditions and can be misleading.

Oldzorki,

Over the weekend, I was able to hook up my IDA-8 to some quite large floorstanders (probably 89/90 db efficiency), the VMPS RM40 and it gave them everything they needed.

Played very loudly, without a hint of stress.

My speakers are similar to these


oldzorki

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #309 on: 7 Mar 2016, 03:52 pm »
Thank you John, very encouraging!

rustydoglim

Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #310 on: 8 Mar 2016, 05:54 pm »
Class D amp has been improving leaps and bounce over the years. I remember in the "old days" like 2005 to 2010 or so, everyone is talking about THD numbers. Same thing can be said for the sampling rate of DACs.
But now, several of the top tier class D amps (NuPrime especially) have moved beyond those numbers. THD < 0.05 is common over a wide range of power and freq so we stop talking about it. It is no longer interesting. You can't tell the difference beyond certain low THD numbers.
Similarly for DAC, we just created the mDSD under Encore brand for $99 with 32-bit/384kHz and DSD256 decoding. Sound quality is incredible.
By the way, for amp, you want to turn up the volume and typically the best performance (the lowest THD, best dynamic) is at mid volume level.

So what's the next battle ground for class D amps if low THD is now the norm?
1) switching frequency - all the NuPrime amps now switch at > 550kHz.  Why is this important?  It has to do with converting the analog music into pulses with varying height. With > 10X the sampling rate of CDs, you can't tell from a class D or class A amp anymore.
2) mix of class D power stage different preamp stage to create amps with different flavours. You can't tell STA-9 from a high-end tube amp. Our French distributor told us $649 STA-9 sounded better than his 5000 Euro class A amp.

Power supply and chassis now becomes one of the deciding factor for cost. Your smart phone has more computer power than a super computer of yesterday, so believe me, we can make our class D amp sounded like anything.
3) price.  Good design, very reasonable price.

By the way, the deciding factor in a DAC product is no longer the chip. Realistically, the difference between ESS9018 and ESS9010K2M is not noticeable if the rest of the design is very good.  Typically in a so called entry level DAC, vendors use lower price  DAC chip but what makes it sounded not so good is the preamp, jitter reduction circuit (or lack of), volume control, power supply circuit etc.
If you have a high end in-ear earphones, try the $99 Encore mDSD to decode DSD256 or 32-bit/384KHz music from your smart phone to hear what I am talking about.

Next month I will take about some innovative stuff we are doing for Omnia. One of the most important design feature is to decouple the music decoding and streaming from the CPU. This can't be done on a standard PC or smart phone. It needs propriety design on the "motherboard".

maty

Targets for the next class D amplifiers generation
« Reply #311 on: 8 Mar 2016, 06:45 pm »
  • Bandwith audio at -3 dB (aka Frequency response) < 50, 60... 80 kHz. The next generation should reach at least to 100 kHz. Maximum about 350 kHz to avoid problems with RFI / EMI interference I think.
  • Well, usually I play vinyl rips 24/96 FLAC. Maybe switch 20X / 1 MHz would be other target.


oldzorki

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Re: Targets for the next class D amplifiers generation
« Reply #312 on: 8 Mar 2016, 10:36 pm »
  • Bandwith audio at -3 dB (aka Frequency response) < 50, 60... 80 kHz. The next generation should reach at least to 100 kHz. Maximum about 350 kHz to avoid problems with RFI / EMI interference I think.
  • Well, usually I play vinyl rips 24/96 FLAC. Maybe switch 20X / 1 MHz would be other target.
I amassed quite a bit of 24/192 downloads from HDTracks, I also have plenty of SACD rips in DSF files.
May be 4 MHz switching supply one day? )))
I found nowadays D amps remarkable. I use W2S new amp in HT system (and it is not as advanced as nuprime, based on IcePower) - and this baby is smooth.
So my only concern was power, and I believe my questions have been answered. I am ordering IDA-8 in a month (I am in a process of moving).

maty

Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #313 on: 8 Mar 2016, 10:57 pm »
Off-topic

Unless new recordings (classical an jazz), HDtracks and SACD sound worse than excelent vinyl rips I hear. With commercial music before the eighties the difference increases!

Many vinyl rips in 24/192 sounds a bit false and take up much space.

Many HDtracks are cheaters, they use the 16/44 digital master of CD upsampled to 24/96  :x

oldzorki

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #314 on: 8 Mar 2016, 11:22 pm »
continue off-topic, sorry
Matty, my friends share with some od their rips. And it is hit or miss (to my ears) - some sound good, some are not.
And I agree, too many so-called hi-rez remasters sounds horrible. I just bought "Hello, I Must be Going" by Collins on HDTracks -and already regret it.... Terrible!
But some remasters sounds wonderful and way better (for me) then rips. And yes, it includes jazz recordings from 50 and 60th..

HiFiJeff

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #315 on: 9 Mar 2016, 03:09 am »
Class D amp has been improving leaps and bounce over the years. I remember in the "old days" like 2005 to 2010 or so, everyone is talking about THD numbers. Same thing can be said for the sampling rate of DACs.
But now, several of the top tier class D amps (NuPrime especially) have moved beyond those numbers. THD < 0.05 is common over a wide range of power and freq so we stop talking about it. It is no longer interesting. You can't tell the difference beyond certain low THD numbers.
Similarly for DAC, we just created the mDSD under Encore brand for $99 with 32-bit/384kHz and DSD256 decoding. Sound quality is incredible.
By the way, for amp, you want to turn up the volume and typically the best performance (the lowest THD, best dynamic) is at mid volume level.

So what's the next battle ground for class D amps if low THD is now the norm?
1) switching frequency - all the NuPrime amps now switch at > 550kHz.  Why is this important?  It has to do with converting the analog music into pulses with varying height. With > 10X the sampling rate of CDs, you can't tell from a class D or class A amp anymore.
2) mix of class D power stage different preamp stage to create amps with different flavours. You can't tell STA-9 from a high-end tube amp. Our French distributor told us $649 STA-9 sounded better than his 5000 Euro class A amp.

Power supply and chassis now becomes one of the deciding factor for cost. Your smart phone has more computer power than a super computer of yesterday, so believe me, we can make our class D amp sounded like anything.
3) price.  Good design, very reasonable price.

By the way, the deciding factor in a DAC product is no longer the chip. Realistically, the difference between ESS9018 and ESS9010K2M is not noticeable if the rest of the design is very good.  Typically in a so called entry level DAC, vendors use lower price  DAC chip but what makes it sounded not so good is the preamp, jitter reduction circuit (or lack of), volume control, power supply circuit etc.
If you have a high end in-ear earphones, try the $99 Encore mDSD to decode DSD256 or 32-bit/384KHz music from your smart phone to hear what I am talking about.

Next month I will take about some innovative stuff we are doing for Omnia. One of the most important design feature is to decouple the music decoding and streaming from the CPU. This can't be done on a standard PC or smart phone. It needs propriety design on the "motherboard".

So back on to the subject of the IDA-8. What would the benefit of this amp be over a lower wattage really well made set amp be?  I am really on the fences between the IDA-8 and a not to be named set amp to pair with a set of high efficiency 94db Omega speakers. I really need help pushing me one way or the other. 

gregfisk

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #316 on: 9 Mar 2016, 04:08 am »
I have not heard the Ida-8 and have probably not heard the set amp your'e talking about. So, for me the question to you is how loud do you like to listen? A set amp is going to have its limits when it comes to volume, the Ida-8 will probably be able to go much louder. The Ida-8 is supposed to have a warmish presentation which would be sort of like a set amp but I don't think they will sound the same.

I really like tubes somewhere in my system, but I also like to turn up the music loud sometimes to really get that live concert feel and to be able to hear all that the recording has to offer. If you don't listen too loud and won't, then I would think a nice set amp to be a good choice. The other things you need to think about is the ida-8 does way more than a conventional amp, which I probably don't have to go into as it has been stated many times in this thread already.

If you have a preference for tubes versus solid state you may answer your own question. If you like the idea of an all in one type of amp with all of the additional features then go for the Ida-8.

I have Super V's which are 97db efficient and I am much happier so far with an amp that can control the speakers better and not peter out when I turn the system up but I also have a very nice tubed preamp to add the warmth and texture that I like to hear in my music.

Hope this helps but really you have to decide what works best for you.

Greg

mresseguie

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #317 on: 9 Mar 2016, 04:32 am »
Greg's answer is spot on IMO.

Purchase one or the other to try out. If it doesn't please you, return it and get the other. You might be out $30 for shipping, but you won't wonder if you made the right decision.

Enjoy the moment. Go for one!

JackD

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Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #318 on: 9 Mar 2016, 04:53 am »
Agree, one is not inherently better than the other just different.  All depends on the rest of your system and your ears.  Try them both or just pick one.  Every ones situation is different so don't listen to the proponents for either side since the only one that needs to be happy with the sound in the end is you.  Plus one amp is not best for all speakers or settings.

maty

Re: IDA-8 ($995) features and spec
« Reply #319 on: 9 Mar 2016, 11:02 am »
Off-topic II

Other option is to play the rips from vinyls recorded analogically, with tubes. Then you have the even harmonics in the rip  :D and yo do not need a tube amplifier (hybrids with Exicon's lateral MOSFETS are better than 100% tubes, with more and very good voltage regulators like AVA amps). The other option, more cheaper, preamps with JFET like NuPrime amps to generate the even harmonics.

Classical and jazz vinyls from 60 and 70 sound very well. The mid-fifties jazz too.

Off course, vinyls from quality labels. And you need a very good equipment to make quality rips: more $$.