Anti-skate issue on a Versalex

blefebvre · « **on:** 23 May 2019, 02:02 am »

Hey all,

Picked up a new Versalex recently. I took it for its maiden voyage today, outfitting it with a Denon 304 cart with VTF at about 1.3g, which is within in the company’s recommended range. The problem I’m having is that the anti-skate force is too strong - the tonearm keeps gliding back to the tonearm rest as soon as I let go of it. When it is on the record, it will start skipping even when the vinyl is close to NM. I’ve checked the 1.5 turns and counterclockwise twist on the filament two or three times now to make sure I have it right - all is in order on that front. Could this be a case of not enough gel in the cup? I put in a minimum amount as per Mike Pranka’s suggestion, but wondering if I need to put in more to offer more resistance to the antiskate force. Thoughts?

Ben

Kimiimacman · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 May 2019, 09:42 am »

You seem to have done everything correctly regarding set-up. The anti-skate force is 99% that of the twist in the thread and so there is no way you can get this wrong unless you have put more than one twist in the thread as per a video on the WTL site which is just plain wrong. To be clear, there should only be one half twist ie the thread DOES NOT rotate all the way round the other, just crosses over in the direction that pulls the arm back towards the rest and not towards the label which you have done so.

So the ONLY explanation for your issue is one of two possibilities. 1. the tracking force is too low (check that what ever you are setting this by is accurate. 2. not enough silicon in the cup. Hold the tonearm mid-way and push the arm backwards and forwards to feel the resistance, if you can't feel any then that's the issue; there should be some. Add a small quantity more, say, half a teaspoon full and leave for 30 mins for it to settle (easy to remove with a cotton bud used like a honey spoon if you need to but again leave to settle).

You should also try a different cartridge in case there is an issue with the Denon perhaps.

Good luck

K

blefebvre · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 May 2019, 04:23 pm »

Thanks for that. I’m feeling a little bit of resistance. The gel, as far as I can tell, reaches up maybe 1/4" up the golfball. Tracking force is at about 1.3g from my latest measurement. I didn’t have this problem at all on the WTL Amadeus I had used previously. Right now I’m wondering if this cart tracks too low for this tonearm, or maybe the silicon gel the dealer included with the arm is not the correct viscosity. It’s kind of annoying- the tonearm doesn’t slowly creep toward the tonearm rest, it fairly purposeful in its path. I’ll consult the dealer as well.

mick wolfe · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 May 2019, 04:51 pm »

FWIW, as I'm assuming set-up for the Amadeus pretty much mimics that of the Versalex? Regardless, the bottom 1/3 of golf ball (not 1/4) is immersed in the silicon in my Amadeus set up. Also for the record, I've used both a Soundsmith cart that tracked at the very same 1.3 G you mention and a Denon 103R that tracks at roughly twice that tracking force ( 2.5G) without issue. Yes, consult the dealer.

audio.bill · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 May 2019, 05:54 pm »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I see the OP confirms using 1.5 turns but the second post says there should only be half a twist and that a video that shows more than one twist is incorrect. Isn't there an inconsistency there... should there be 1.5 or 0.5 twists for proper A/S?

Kimiimacman · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 May 2019, 07:21 pm »

Quote from: audio.bill on 23 May 2019, 05:54 pm

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I see the OP confirms using 1.5 turns but the second post says there should only be half a twist and that a video that shows more than one twist is incorrect. Isn't there an inconsistency there... should there be 1.5 or 0.5 twists for proper A/S?

Just to be clear if I may( I speak both as a Versalex user and dealer for WTL).

It is essential that the thread is wound round the steel disc that is mounted on the hanger above the arm 1.5 times so that the thread is in contact with the entire circumference of said disc and that then a 180 degree anti-clockwise twist is then applied before the disc is pushed onto the hanger rod. If the former is not done ie the thread is merely looped over the discs then the twist with exert more negative force

RPM123 · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 May 2019, 08:09 pm »

I just checked mine and it looks like there is only one twist. A local dealer set it up. Also, hard to tell, but I think the silicone goes up to about 1/3 of the ball.

audio.bill · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 May 2019, 11:43 pm »

Quote from: Kimiimacman on 23 May 2019, 07:21 pm

Just to be clear if I may( I speak both as a Versalex user and dealer for WTL).

It is essential that the thread is wound round the steel disc that is mounted on the hanger above the arm 1.5 times so that the thread is in contact with the entire circumference of said disc and that then a 180 degree anti-clockwise twist is then applied before the disc is pushed onto the hanger rod. If the former is not done ie the thread is merely looped over the discs then the twist with exert more negative force

Thanks very much for the clarification!

blefebvre · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 May 2019, 11:53 pm »

Yup, checked again - 1.5 loop and 180-degree counterclockwise twist. This is what it’s like now:
https://youtu.be/kEXoWQrwayw

Not sure if that’s normal. Didn’t seem to be that much anti-skate force when I was using the Amadeus....

Having said that, part of the tracking problem I had earlier could probably be chalked up to the tonearm lift being a tad too high - I think it was snagging the tonearm wand slightly. I lowered it a bit.

blefebvre · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 May 2019, 12:37 am »

Having said all this, the Versalex is a beautiful sounding table. This is the only real “issue.”

gagamut · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 May 2019, 02:50 am »

Quote from: blefebvre on 24 May 2019, 12:37 am

Having said all this, the Versalex is a beautiful sounding table. This is the only real “issue.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKMhigE5VqQ

mick wolfe · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 May 2019, 05:31 am »

Quote from: gagamut on 24 May 2019, 02:50 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKMhigE5VqQ

The video tells it all. A simple half twist in the direction shown. The Amadeus manual says the same. Never heard of 1.5 twists.

mick wolfe · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 May 2019, 06:48 am »

Kimiimacman has covered this already, but the 1.5 number refers to that "lap" the thread has to take around the azimuth adjustment collar.

Kimiimacman · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 May 2019, 09:38 am »

Quote from: blefebvre on 23 May 2019, 11:53 pm

Yup, checked again - 1.5 loop and 180-degree counterclockwise twist. This is what it’s like now:
https://youtu.be/kEXoWQrwayw

Not sure if that’s normal. Didn’t seem to be that much anti-skate force when I was using the Amadeus....

Having said that, part of the tracking problem I had earlier could probably be chalked up to the tonearm lift being a tad too high - I think it was snagging the tonearm wand slightly. I lowered it a bit.

Looking at our video I think I may know what your problem is; I reckon you could actually be tracking at close to zero gram. Why? because it could be that the scales you are using are not suitable for this job inasmuch as the pad onto which you are resting the stylus is ferrous and the magnet in the cartridge is being attracted to it giving you a reading of 1.44g but when you took the arm away it lifted and remain up which is a negative weight. I have witnessed this before.
The deck you have is pre-2017 as WTL have made some cosmetic changes in the meantime and those older decks (mine is the same) came with a cheap but reliable electronic scale. If you don't have one then the Ortofon balance scale is pretty accurate, enough to get you in the right zone, then just by ear.

Kimiimacman · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 May 2019, 11:20 am »

I have just set up my store’s Versalex with a cart at 1.0g using a Shure SFG2 scale. The arm has sufficient VTF to ensure the arm makes good contact to the lift-lower pad unlike in your video so cannot return towards the rest. When set to I’m confident of my previous posted comments

Kimiimacman · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 May 2019, 12:55 pm »

You should also be aware that scales are only accurate with this tonearm when the contact point is equal to the height of an LP. If your scales are much higher then the measured VTF is lower than when playing

blefebvre · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 May 2019, 01:06 pm »

Ah, thanks for that. Man, never even heard of that issue with the digital scales. I’ll check on it. I’m not sure, though - like I said, I had no problem with a Denon 301mkii on my Amadeus. But it’s definitely worth looking further into that. I’ll report back later - leaving on holiday for the long weekend, so won’t have time to fiddle. Which I’m sure will be good for my mental health, if nothing else.

mick wolfe · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 May 2019, 04:37 pm »

When I saw the video you posted, there is no way the arm would have drifted aimlessly upward if any downward tracking force were truly applied. As Kimiimacman has already noted, the scale appears to be the culprit to some extent. I guess that's why I have 3 scales including the Shure already mentioned. Thankfully they all somewhat agree, but the most accurate I believe is the Riverstone. It captures VTF at a position that pretty much replicates the thickness of an album. In the meantime, enjoy the weekend

blefebvre · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 May 2019, 02:27 pm »

Just picked up the Ortofon plastic scale on eBay. I used to have the Shure scale, but the metal bent during shipping and I never trusted it after that. I may pick up the Riverside scale down the line - Thanks for the tip. I do like the convenience of a digital scale, though it seems to have tripped me up in this instance. The one in the video came with a used turntable I bought years ago - I guess now I know why the former owner “gifted” it to me.

Kimiimacman · « **Reply #19 on:** 28 May 2019, 09:30 am »

Does that mean you have got it working correctly now? If so, I'm glad I could help.

ATB

K