Hypex NCore question and answers

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 274013 times.

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #700 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:18 pm »
How do you know that?

I still don't see how lowering the voltage would increase the current driving capacity. Have you actually done a SOA analysis on the nc400?

Any effects on sonics is of course speculation until verified.

Surprising ....

I posted a link previously and you seem very familiar with the spec sheet,  it's 2 ohm output shows current limiting, as to SOA , it's academic, no analysis would be necessary in saying the SOA  would be better served by lowering operating voltage ...

Regards...

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #701 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:24 pm »
Ohm's law doesn't suddenly change at some magic impedance value.

The lower the impedance, the more current and less voltage are required to reach a specific power value, but what the nc400 controls is the voltage, not the current. The current is a result of the voltage, and lowering the supply voltage does not increase the current capability of the amp.

"Current-dumping" and current-control amplifier designs are another matter, but as far as I know, the nc400 isn't one of them.

22 A, something the nc400 can drive into 1 ohm by outputting a 22 V - independent of the supply voltage. You still need 22 V on the output to cause 22 A in a 1 ohm load, and it doesn't matter if the supply voltage is 30 V or 299.5 V.
 
No. If you know your load impedance is low, you *can* lower your supply voltage if you change component values, but just changing the supply voltage without changing anything else won't increase the current capability.

What makes you think that?

We must be talking past each other , Low -Z operation requires current,  that part of Ohm's law doesn't change because of class-d ..:)

NC400 
200@8
400@4
575@2

Obvious current limiting ,it will not drive a 1 ohm load without issues , for comparisions...

Krell KSA200

200@8
400@4
800@2

No current limiting or very little at Low Z operation ...

Regards,

Julf

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
  • Grumpy second cousin of Mark V Shaney
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #702 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:28 pm »
I posted a link previously and you seem very familiar with the spec sheet,  it's 2 ohm output shows current limiting

In the amp or in the power supply? How would lowering the supply voltage improve the situation?

Quote
as to SOA , it's academic, no analysis would be necessary in saying the SOA  would be better served by lowering operating voltage ...

Without a proper analysis there is no way to know what the limiting factor is for the SOA, and what effect the supply voltage would have. Is it a thermal limitation? Current limitation? Voltage limitation?

As I keep saying - just lowering the supply voltage without changing component values to take advantage of the lower voltage won't do anything for you.

 

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #703 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:32 pm »
Page8

Look at power vs thd @ 2 ohms , the Knee takes place at 100 watts,  technically this is the sweet spot , 100 watts at 2 , best bet would be 100watts at 1 ohm , before distortion rises sharply, the knee represents the sweet spot. So  yes, there is nothing in the technical papers that would lead me to believe this is a stable low Z design  for continuous low-Z operation, The Bel Canto's had the same issue..

http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf


No worries, many have fallen on this sword ... :)

Regards

Julf

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
  • Grumpy second cousin of Mark V Shaney
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #704 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:35 pm »
Obvious current limiting

Obvious, yes, but what is limiting the current? The amp (why?) or the power supply?

And again, why would lowering the supply voltage make any difference - unless you redesign the amp for a lower supply voltage and lower load impedance?

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #705 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:39 pm »
Obvious, yes, but what is limiting the current? The amp (why?) or the power supply?

And again, why would lowering the supply voltage make any difference - unless you redesign the amp for a lower supply voltage and lower load impedance?

I'm not sure, 3 emails to Hypex requesting data has not been answered, I would believe it's a combination of both supply and amp, by lowering the output voltage but with the same VA capability , you will have a more stable amplifier ..

NC 400 lower PSu voltage

100@8
200@4
400@2
575@1

as an eg,

Julf

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
  • Grumpy second cousin of Mark V Shaney
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #706 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:43 pm »
Look at power vs thd @ 2 ohms , the Knee takes place at 100 watts,  technically this is the sweet spot , 100 watts at 2

Yes, I am sure we all agree 100 W is the sweet spot in terms of lowest distortion. So why does that make you think the nc400 isn't a "stable low Z design for continuous low-Z operation"?

Quote
So  yes, there is nothing in the technical papers that would lead me to believe this is a stable low Z design  for continuous low-Z operation

I also don' t see anything leading me to believe it isn't.

Clearly the nc400 doesn't satisfy your special criteria, so I suggest you use some other amplifier design instead.
 

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #707 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:44 pm »
Well we agree finally .... :)


Still  interested in hearing it,  I"m willing to test yours at 1 ohm for you, if you are that confident about the smoke staying in ......  :)


Regards,

Julf

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
  • Grumpy second cousin of Mark V Shaney
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #708 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:47 pm »
by lowering the output voltage but with the same VA capability , you will have a more stable amplifier ..

I will say this one more time - the nc400/smps600 combination isn't just some ideal simple transformer where you can arbitrarily trade voltage for current within the same VA capacity / power. To take benefit of a lower supply voltage and a lower load impedance, you need to (at least) adapt component values.

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #709 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:50 pm »
I will say this one more time - the nc400/smps600 combination isn't just some ideal simple transformer where you can arbitrarily trade voltage for current within the same VA capacity / power. To take benefit of a lower supply voltage and a lower load impedance, you need to (at least) adapt component values.

I was going to do my own supply, hence the questions if it was possible , i thought that was understood based on where we were going with this ...  :scratch:

Julf

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
  • Grumpy second cousin of Mark V Shaney
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #710 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:54 pm »
I"m willing to test yours at 1 ohm for you, if you are that confident about the smoke staying in ......  :)

If the smoke stays in when driving a 0 ohm short, it will stay in at 1 ohm. At some point, lowering the load impedance, the overcurrent protection will kick in, as a lot of people have discovered.

Julf

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
  • Grumpy second cousin of Mark V Shaney
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #711 on: 26 Jun 2013, 11:58 pm »
I was going to do my own supply, hence the questions if it was possible , i thought that was understood based on where we were going with this ...  :scratch:

Which is fine if the limitations are caused by the power supply. I thought you were asking about the nc400.

If you design a new power supply that trades current for voltage you might be able to optimize your design for a low load impedance, but it won't change how the nc400 behaves (as long as you stay above specified minimum supply voltage).

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #712 on: 27 Jun 2013, 12:53 am »
If the smoke stays in when driving a 0 ohm short, it will stay in at 1 ohm. At some point, lowering the load impedance, the overcurrent protection will kick in, as a lot of people have discovered.


Whats that value .....?

Julf

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
  • Grumpy second cousin of Mark V Shaney
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #713 on: 27 Jun 2013, 01:02 am »
Whats that value .....?

24 A, according to the Good Datasheet.

srb

Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #714 on: 27 Jun 2013, 01:17 am »
There are so many fantastic sounding speakers that don't present such unmanageably low loads of 1 Ohm.  Why bend over backwards to accommodate these unusual constructions?  I mean, you could design an automobile engine that requires jet aviation fuel, but why would you want to?

Just curious about a speaker choice that eliminates literally hundreds of great amplifiers from the running.

Steve

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #715 on: 27 Jun 2013, 01:45 am »
There are so many fantastic sounding speakers that don't present such unmanageably low loads of 1 Ohm.  Why bend over backwards to accommodate these unusual constructions?  I mean, you could design an automobile engine that requires jet aviation fuel, but why would you want to?

Steve


Really, name one .... :)

Most SOTA speakers will represent a 2ohm load , some ESL's will get down below 1ohm and worse are capacitive, but you could be right,  i could stop bending over backwards , stop looking for what i want , what works for me and  get a easy load one  and call it a day...

Any recommendations ... :)

Regards

Ps :  There are no great amps not capable of driving a Low-Z load ...

a.wayne

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 685
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #716 on: 27 Jun 2013, 01:54 am »
24 A, according to the Good Datasheet.

Yes, i saw that ......

Rclark

Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #717 on: 27 Jun 2013, 04:59 am »
Unless you're a PHD in amplifier design, have a full understanding of the workings of the NC400, and have a fortune to throw at this linear supply, several times more than the amp itself, you're wasting your time, IMO.

Julf

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
  • Grumpy second cousin of Mark V Shaney
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #718 on: 27 Jun 2013, 10:49 am »
Unless you're a PHD in amplifier design, have a full understanding of the workings of the NC400, and have a fortune to throw at this linear supply, several times more than the amp itself, you're wasting your time, IMO.

Well, aren't all hobbies pretty much a waste of time? :)

Nothing wrong in trying, but as with any experiment, the results might not be what you hope for...

Julf

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 497
  • Grumpy second cousin of Mark V Shaney
Re: Hypex NCore question and answers
« Reply #719 on: 27 Jun 2013, 10:54 am »
Most SOTA speakers will represent a 2ohm load , some ESL's will get down below 1ohm and worse are capacitive

Yes, and the nc400 will have no problem driving them. Maximum power might be current-limited, but as long as you don't drive them full out (your lower supply voltage would limit the power anyway), it won't be an issue. 24 A is a heck of a lot of current...

Quote
Ps :  There are no great amps not capable of driving a Low-Z load ...

You do seem to like broad, sweeping statements.