AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Hypex Owners Circle => Topic started by: firedog on 10 Apr 2012, 04:01 am
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From the thread moderator:
The original NCore thread was split to start a question and answer thread at the request of some contributors. The following post ended up being the lead off post:
Sorry for the dumbass question, but are these modules mono or stereo? Do you need 2 modules for a 2 channel amp?
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Personally, I find it hard to fault the UcD HG modules. It would be interesting/helpful to hear from someone who has lived with them for a period of time then upgraded to NC. Maybe the ultra-long diyAudio thread contains some of this information? :scratch:
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I've been watching the Hypex threads on A/C for the past couple of months. The one thing I'd like to see a definitive answer on is: Exactly what is needed to make this a working amplifier? If I ordered the kit from Hypex, what would I need to buy to complete it? A case (obviously), but what else? Is there a parts list somewhere?
Thanks,
Slush
Case, binding posts, IEC, switch, Chassis mount connector for input and very little wire as most of the work is already done for you.
Sorry for the dumbass question, but are these modules mono or stereo? Do you need 2 modules for a 2 channel amp?
Yes, two NC400's for two channels. You can use one SMPS for two channel if you wish. I prefer two though. :green:
Personally, I find it hard to fault the UcD HG modules. It would be interesting/helpful to hear from someone who has lived with them for a period of time then upgraded to NC. Maybe the ultra-long diyAudio thread contains some of this information? :scratch:
There are reviews of members on diyaudio that have owned both. If you search the thread, you will find them. Lucky for you they have a thread search function within the thread. :wink:
The bottom line is that member "Stig" finds the NCores better. There I just saved you some time. :lol:
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Mike,
Were you running them with single-ended or balanced inputs? The designer seems to place emphasis on balanced for optimum performance.
Regards,
Dave
Yes, I set them up for XLR in but my pre is single ended. If you read the data sheet here you can see Bruno's thoughts.
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
SMPS is here http://www.hypex.nl/docs/SMPS600_Datasheet.pdf
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Can anyone tell me when finished Ncore (new module) amps will be available for sale for us non do it yourself types. I can't wait to try these amps out. Thanks!
Joe
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Can anyone tell me when finished Ncore (new module) amps will be available for sale for us non do it yourself types. I can't wait to try these amps out. Thanks!
Joe
The Mola Mola will be available and other OEM's that make something. http://www.mola-mola.nl/
This isn't a diy kit though. Just about anyone that can read will be able to put it in a case.
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Can anyone tell me when finished Ncore (new module) amps will be available for sale for us non do it yourself types. I can't wait to try these amps out. Thanks!
Joe
A while back, I offered to build one for free so I could document the build for DIYers and get photo samples of my cases. No one was interested. :wink: I'm too busy to make this offer today.
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Case, binding posts, IEC, switch, Chassis mount connector for input and very little wire as most of the work is already done for you.
Thanks! I didn't realize the assembly was that simple.
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Anyone know if CI Audio has plans to offer a commercial amp based on these modules? If so, I wonder if he plans to "work any magic" on the input stage. :scratch:
@jtwrace: Thanks for the info.
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Anyone know if CI Audio has plans to offer a commercial amp based on these modules? If so, I wonder if he plans to "work any magic" on the input stage. :scratch:
@jtwrace: Thanks for the info.
I don't believe he does. Don't forget the NC400 is DIY ONLY. It's NOT meant for a business to purchase and resell. That's what the NC1200 is for....
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This may be barbaric but I plan to just mount the PS and the two modules on separate boards. PS in the middle and one amp module behind each speaker. OTOH, I might even be able to mount the amp modules on the back of my crossover boards. Hard wire PS to power module to crossover board on each channel. No binding posts, no cases. I might go so far as to acquire three cigar boxes.
I already have a combo fuse holder/IEC and on/off switch, so all I need is XLR inputs. How's that for easy?
Does anyone see any flaw in my plan - other than the electrocution potential?
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Does anyone see any flaw in my plan
Already a fuse on the SMPS so you're good to go. :wink:
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Does anyone see any flaw in my plan - other than the electrocution potential?
Despite the Hypex modules being some of the best at not radiating excessive RF, I believe they (and your other equipment) will benefit from having them enclosed in a metal, grounded enclosure. Just my 2¢.
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Despite the Hypex modules being some of the best at not radiating excessive RF, I believe they (and your other equipment) will benefit from having them enclosed in a metal, grounded enclosure. Just my 2¢.
That is of course until you ask Bruno that question. :wink:
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That is of course until you ask Bruno that question. :wink:
Yeah, As a beta tester for some of the Hypex gear, and a very early adopter of UcD, I've asked him lots of questions in the past. I've even gone as far as following some of his advice. :thumb: Kidding aside, he's a very talented designer.
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Despite the Hypex modules being some of the best at not radiating excessive RF, I believe they (and your other equipment) will benefit from having them enclosed in a metal, grounded enclosure. Just my 2¢.
lowtech - In the scenario I posed above, the modules would not be within 24 inches of anything except my passive XOs which are mounted on plywood and leaning against the drywall. Would they need to be grounded under those circumstances?
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A while back, I offered to build one for free so I could document the build for DIYers and get photo samples of my cases. No one was interested. ;)
Hi,
I have not been following this as closely as I should have been. That's a great gesture.
Joe
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lowtech - In the scenario I posed above, the modules would not be within 24 inches of anything except my passive XOs which are mounted on plywood and leaning against the drywall. Would they need to be grounded under those circumstances?
Aside from the safety issues you already mentioned, I personally believe Hypex modules (at least UcD - I don't have any experience with NC - but don't see why it would differ) should be enclosed in something that will allow them to be shielded and properly grounded. Apparently there is a differing of opinion, so as usual, YMMV.
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After recently upgrading to the newer SDS amplifiers from Class D Audio, I have changed my mind about class D amps. Because of this positive experience I have gone ahead and put in a order for a dual mono pair of NC400's. If they sound even better then the SDS amps I will be a happy guy.
Does anyone have any case recommendations for a dual mono setup? My initial thought was to re-use the case I bought from jtwrace?? for the Class D Audio amps. All I would need to do is take out the currents amp/power supply and re-wire the NC400's setup. What do you guys think?
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Has anyone posted a set of measurements of a completed NC400 driving a real load? I'm interested in what the distortion spectrum looks like on a realistic load (I realize that the exact measurements will depend on the particular load). The data sheet only shows measurements driving a purely resistive load.
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I can see concerns that this is just another fad. I've had those thoughts myself. But I certainly haven't had any notion that it is being force fed. In fact, I was completely unaware of it until I found the thread here on AC about a month ago.
By all accounts, it is a breakthrough product. Class D holds a lot of promise and the Ncore may just be the amplifier that brings that promise to fruition.
Besides, John, if you are going to be reading about it all the time anyway, you may as well benefit from owning the thing.
I'm expecting a pair to be delivered here tomorrow and frankly, I'm not at all concerned about how good the amps are. I'm already convinced of that from the testimonials and decisions I've observed. My only concern lies in whether or not I care anymore. I'm hoping the NC400 will reignite my interest. Over the last 10 years, I've observed a dizzying glut of product, immense complication from computer audio, etc., much more difficult resale, and escalating prices. Combine that with incredible, irreplaceable speakers and family complications in terms of use of space, and the bloom falls away from the rose.
So, when the offer came in to try these out for a year, I couldn't refuse. Maybe they will spark a resurgence (relapse) in my audio fervor. More later.
Hi all, What is the rated power of these amps?
Ray Bronk
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http://www.hypex.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100&Itemid=102
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I've stayed away from Class D based on reading reports of a sterile sounding top end, maybe the ncore modules have resolved this issue, but I have yet to read anything that contradicts this.
Does anyone know what the impedence input is? I need at least 50k but 100k would be even better, also is it possible to install gain controls?
Looks like you could build three of the Class D SDS stereo amps for the cost of one ncore amp.
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Hi
i am also on the fence ordering the Ncore .
although most of the wiring seems to be very simple there are still questions for me :
how to wire the power iec and switch ?
what power iec/switch do people use , where to buy?
if somebody could post some photos showing all wiring/connections that would really help not to blow up my speakers .
i was also think about building the amps into wooden enclosures but i was wondering if there would be grounding issues ?
macrojack , if you could let me know how your minimal build goes , that would be much appreciated.
malcolm
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I've stayed away from Class D based on reading reports of a sterile sounding top end, maybe the ncore modules have resolved this issue, but I have yet to read anything that contradicts this.
Does anyone know what the impedence input is? I need at least 50k but 100k would be even better, also is it possible to install gain controls?
Looks like you could build three of the Class D SDS stereo amps for the cost of one ncore amp.
dm input impedance = 104kohms
cm input impedance = 1.5mohms
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
doug s.
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Can these amp modules use single ended RCA output cables or does one need to use an XLR to RCA type cable? From the website it looked like only XLR to me.
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Can these amp modules use single ended RCA output cables or does one need to use an XLR to RCA type cable? From the website it looked like only XLR to me.
look at pages 12 & 13; single-ended rca cables can be used.
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
doug s.
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Dang, too bad I haven't been paying attention - I'd have been interested in hearing these while they were in CO, plus I have a pair of Class-D-Audio SDS amps that might have made for an interesting comparison given that they are something of a known quantity here on AC.
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My buddy's ncore modules came in on Monday and we put his amp together on Tuesday. Its pretty much an all-out assault with switchable balanced / unbalanced inputs and dual outputs - Cardas Patented Binding Posts and Speakons. The enclosure is the best diy effort I've ever seen with Front Panel Express having done the front, back, and bottom.
He's listening to it now and I hope to get over to his place early next week to do some comparisons to his Mac tube amp. Should be interesting.
-Jim
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Dang, too bad I haven't been paying attention - I'd have been interested in hearing these while they were in CO, plus I have a pair of Class-D-Audio SDS amps that might have made for an interesting comparison given that they are something of a known quantity here on AC.
Hey neighbor (I live just north of Golden). I agree...there will be comparisons between the NC400 and the SDS amps. According to the NCore document...
"Regardless of whether the remainder of your audio system has balanced connections or not, the very best way to wire the input of the NC400 is to leverage the advantage of its balanced input. You can get almost all of the quality improvement afforded by balanced connections even with an
unbalanced source, provided that you have a balanced input"
My question is this. For a good comparison, should one wire the SDS amps to balanced inputs (and has anyone wired them the same way as described on page 12 of the document) and use unbalanced to balanced cables, or is this not significant enough for an apples to apples comparision between the two amps?
Sorry if this is not the appropriate place for the question, but...
Thanks, Mike
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There are plenty of tube lovers who prefer either a little or perhaps even a lot of tube euphony. Add to that the very particular and characteristic sound of low power SET amplifiers.
Personal preference and system synergy still trump absolute neutrality, no matter how good the NCore amplifier modules are.
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I get that. You like the way it sounds over the music. Or rather you like your system's sonic characteristics for all your music.
My own amp is said to be very tubelike, it's a tripath, but even as sweet as this sounds I'd rather go for neutrality and clarity above all. Let the recording through.
And as far as synergy, well, as this amp has the finesse to apparently match or beat anything, I think this is a situation where you let the amp dictate the synergy and you choose pieces from there until you get it right. If these amps are as good as being reported, and you kind of have to believe it at this point, why would you let any other piece of gear dictate things?
I get it though, there will always be tube amps. The thing I'm saying is, a lot less people are going to want to pay the premium for what is now lesser performance.
People will just use buffers I think, if they want that tube flavor.
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I think it's amusing, and very cool that after all these years and thousands of designs, you end up here, with these, at the tippy top.
As the reports continue to come in, it really can't be overstated how big a development this is. It's a revolution. The end of tubes. Even at the highest level of amps, it's the end. All bested by a relatively inexpensive SS, Class D.
I am sad in a way because I was just looking forward to start getting into tubes until I discovered this. It's like I am sitting on the very edge of an event and I missed all that came before. Still, I expect in the coming years that tube amps, much like black and white tv's, will come down dramatically in price, and it might be fun to buy a small one as a nick nack to adorn a shelf.
For me it's neat because you can now just forget about power. In fact these are even bridgeable for an output of 1200 watts @ 4ohms.
Forget about power, instead worry about the source end, and speakers. That's the hobby now, not roll tubes, but roll speakers. To me, that sounds WAY more fun.
Incidentally he (Bruno) has alluded to a world beating dac on the way, as well as speakers... stay tuned.
I'm curious, have you heard this amp yet?
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Thank You, Timind.
I think the facilitators job extends beyond censorship to "keeping it real".
And Rclark - if tubes were going away, they would have already. Despite the availability of automatic transmissions that allow you to talk on the phone, put on makeup (or shave) and smoke and eat breakfast, all while you are driving, I (and many others) still prefer a manual shifter. Despite the best efforts of the marketing forces, progress is still optional.
While it could be argued that the NC400 pushes tubes right off the test bench, it will not separate the devotees from their glass. Tube users may become as scarce as pipe smokers, but some of them will never let go.
And don't forget that Harry Pearson may step in and identify some non-existent problem with the Ncore that the rest of the known universe somehow overlooked. These things work like PMS. On Monday nobody ever heard of it and by Wednesday there were 100,000,000 known cases in the U.S. alone.
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These photos might help with visualization of how one might go about building these amps. This build used the Hypex soft start but other than that is pretty standard.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61083)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61084)
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These photos might help with visualization of how one might go about building these amps. This build used the Hypex soft start but other than that is pretty standard.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61083)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61084)
In these pics, what is supplied and what is the builder to supply?
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Why would you use a soft start with a smps?
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I've only been following the Ncore progress at arms-length, so this may be a dumb question, but what is the state of ordering and/or the process? They show 'sold out' at the moment. Is this like the Twisted Pear stuff where you just hang out reloading the page periodically until it shows as in stock, or is there a more formal process - scheduled batches/waiting list/pre-order etc?
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I've only been following the Ncore progress at arms-length, so this may be a dumb question, but what is the state of ordering and/or the process? They show 'sold out' at the moment. Is this like the Twisted Pear stuff where you just hang out reloading the page periodically until it shows as in stock, or is there a more formal process - scheduled batches/waiting list/pre-order etc?
Click more info and read....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61095)
So, you place the order in the webshop and wait. Then suddenly the news shows up in your inbox that the amp(s) have shipped.
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HT,
Are these your own mono blocks? Layout looks really nice. :D
I can't wait to hear these. Though, I've never assembled amps before, people said that it's pretty easy and everything is on the instruction manual.
- Christian
These photos might help with visualization of how one might go about building these amps. This build used the Hypex soft start but other than that is pretty standard.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61083)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61084)
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I've only been following the Ncore progress at arms-length, so this may be a dumb question, but what is the state of ordering and/or the process? They show 'sold out' at the moment. Is this like the Twisted Pear stuff where you just hang out reloading the page periodically until it shows as in stock, or is there a more formal process - scheduled batches/waiting list/pre-order etc?
Yes, you need to create a username and password to enter the webshop. From there your can place you order, which essentially puts you on the list for whatever batch you fall into. Then one day you will get a memo saying they shipped.
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Can these amp be powered off a battery bank?
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I'm sure this will be the next question...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61097)
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Personally emailed Hypex this week about waiting list and availability and they replied,"We deliver based on received and paid orders we have received. Indeed the next schedule for delivery is May."
In other words, they send the amps out according to the sequence of the paid orders.
Unfortunately, the in stock in "WK21" was "WK18" up until a few days ago.
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My own amp is said to be very tubelike, it's a tripath, but even as sweet as this sounds I'd rather go for neutrality and clarity above all. Let the recording through.
Tripath amplifiers are not tube like. They do not sound like any tubes I have ever heard, not like a a push pull EL-84, not like a SET 45, 300B, 2A3 or 421A, not like an OTL from Atma-sphere or Transcendent Sound.
And before anyone says "Well, have you heard my particular Tripath amplifier?" I've had 3 different Tripath amplifiers in my system, from the very cheap to the most expensive. They don't sound like tubes.
People will just use buffers I think, if they want that tube flavor.
Doubt a tube buffer will ever make anything sound like a SET 45. Never heard one, right?
Anyway, I don't think you can make an argument that this will replace all tube based amplification. You'll just have to let the market decide on what actually happens.
It seems clear from early reports that the NCore has a hit on their hands, but whether that means they will utterly and completely dominate the market, I think we're a long way from coming to that conclusion.
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I think we're a long way from coming to that conclusion.
That's correct. Unless people soley purchased equipment based on measurements and not subjective opinions, It will NEVER happen. There will always be people who favor one type or the other. At the end of the day, that's fine IMO. There's plenty to go around for all to have some.
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I love Tripath but totally agree. Not tube "like" at all.
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Yes, you need to create a username and password to enter the webshop. From there your can place you order, which essentially puts you on the list for whatever batch you fall into. Then one day you will get a memo saying they shipped.
Great - thanks. In other words, yes it was a dumb question :-)
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This has strayed so far off the my intention of just posting a few thoughts about what I heard. Perhaps it's time to lock this one...
Nah...wait till I post some thoughts after listening. :wink:
George
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With the tour of jtwrace's ncore coming up soon, perhaps a LISTENING IMPRESSIONS ONLY NCORE thread would be a good idea? We could start it by cutting and pasting from the actual impressions here and in the other ncore thread. And then let another ncore thread function for discussions of building them and other matters.
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Hopefully this is not too far off topic...
To make an amp what parts do you get from Hypex and what parts does the builder supply?
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To make an amp what parts do you get from Hypex and what parts does the builder supply?
Rich, from what I understand if one orders the power supply and amplifier module, you receive those, the cable to connect the two and the input cable. I have read some folks received and IEC inlet with fuse and switch but the impression was that is not true in all cases. The builder supplies everything else. Case, binding posts, input jack. I think some of the stand offs for mounting the boards are included as well but again, I'm not certain.
Mine are supposed to arrive on Monday, so I'll know more. The build will look nearly identical to the photos posted by ht_coz as I purchased the chassis from him. Or maybe not, I have some old Parasound mono blocks that I might use for chassis as I kind of like their looks better, really depends on if things would fit nicely in them.
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Can these amp be powered off a battery bank?
Not easily as they need several different voltages....
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Cab do you know what those voltages are? I have a PI Audio buss and it can be configured to output different voltages.
Thanks, Mike
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Why would you use a soft start with a smps?
It is a bit of massive overkill but in this case it is used as an on off switch. Bruno had mentioned a more simple on off switch that he might create for these units.
Thanks,
Robert
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It is a bit of massive overkill but in this case it is used as an on off switch. Bruno had mentioned a more simple on off switch that he might create for these units.
Thanks,
Robert
I don't follow this. Why can't you just use a simple, off-the-shelf, on-off switch directly with the SMPS? Soft start doesn't add anything except more wiring.
-Jim
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I don't follow this. Why can't you just use a simple, off-the-shelf, on-off switch directly with the SMPS? Soft start doesn't add anything except more wiring.
-Jim
The IEC I used has a built in rocker switch for the hot side AC. Easy.
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For those who are interested in what the experts think about this amp topology, the latest issue of Absolute Sound has interviews with several highly regarded amp designers. All are asked about class D (among other things) and the answers are interesting.
Opinions range from the minority sentiment that this is promising technology, to the majority, which ranges from bad to totally damaged and will never work. The majority say they will continue to work in their own preference (class A or tube, mostly).
Just passing this on because my own little experiment with the latest ICEpower module leads me to believe class D shows great promise (and convinced me to purchase the Ncores without hearing them, something I've never done). With all the different reasons to buy gear, including prestige and industrial design, however, the market is likely to remain varied. Very much looking forward to receiving my "it has shipped" email from Hypex.
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Well this did not turn out exactly as I had planned but it's here now. Hopefully, the questions and answers can continue for all interested.
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The IEC I used has a built in rocker switch for the hot side AC. Easy.
That's exactly what my friend used for his build...just wondering if we were somehow missing something.
I'm all for overkill, but only if there is some logical reason for it. The addition of the soft start just doesn't make any sense to me.
-Jim
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I just read the datasheets for the amp, power supply, and soft start boards. Advantages I could see to using the soft start board (unless I'm missing something?):
Easy wiring for standby on/off switch installation (mains switch on the back, standby switch in front?)
A convenient header for wiring up on/standby LEDs
If one is really hard core (or living on the edge of small case size and or minimal cooling) and looking for overkill, adding thermal shutoff protection above and beyond what is already in place?
Looking at some of the pictures, with a nice prebuilt case, it looks like even someone as unskilled when it comes to DIY as myself could probably pull this off without too much trouble in an afternoon or weekend with a little preparation. . . which I REALLY shouldn't start trying to convince myself to be true. . . :lol:
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The bottom line is that member "Stig" finds the NCores better. There I just saved you some time. :lol:
Hmm, curious to know how do YOU find them! :green:
What pre-amp are they to be used with? Can they work with tube pre? :scratch:
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Hmm, curious to know how do YOU find them! :green:
What pre-amp are they to be used with? Can they work with tube pre? :scratch:
I believe Mike Galusha used a tube preamp with them during his audition. I will be using a tube preamp (fully loaded Atma-Sphere MP-1 MK 3.1) with them next when I give them a listen.
George
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When I heard them at jtwrace's it took me but a few minutes to realize we were on to something over the top special. I ordered mine, the very next day, and like you will hopefully be in receipt of my modules/powersupplies by May 2012.
What pre-amp are they to be used with? Can they work with tube pre? Also, can they be used with linear power supply too?
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What pre-amp are they to be used with? Can they work with tube pre? Also, can they be used with linear power supply too?
TRL Dude which is a tube pre.
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That's exactly what my friend used for his build...just wondering if we were somehow missing something.
I'm all for overkill, but only if there is some logical reason for it. The addition of the soft start just doesn't make any sense to me.
-Jim
You guys are absolutely correct. This particular design uses a Bulgin Vandal switch in addition to the IEC rocker switch. The Bulgin is rated for 5 amps and I asked Brunno if this was enough to accommodate the Power Supply he said it was. Now I don't think I would wire 2 power supplies to this particular switch without some other on off switch so it doesn't see too much amperage. The rocker switch is a 20 amp switch which can handle any load we would put on it.
This particular gentleman wanted to build it this way and it works well. I would prefer for the SMPS to have an additional on/off switch that does not see the full line voltage. That makes incorporating a front panel switch easier.
You could imagine wiring many of these together an additional board might make sense. Maybe that is why Brunno was considering building it. I'm sure there is a reason for all the design considerations...
Party on... :thumb:
Robert
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I believe Mike Galusha used a tube preamp with them during his audition. I will be using a tube preamp (fully loaded Atma-Sphere MP-1 MK 3.1) with them next when I give them a listen.
This is correct. My preamp is 6SN7 based, all film caps, CCS loaded plates, transformer balanced outputs.
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Has anyone considered using the Bybee Music Rails between the the SMPS and the amplier module to reduce power supply noise even more. Might make a great amp, greaterer!
FYI--I have been using Hypex UCD400HGs for three years now and like them a lot. The NCores are on my most wanted list.
Chris H.
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Let's try and make this easy for newbies (like me). To build a monoblock Ncore amp, you need:
suitable case - with enough space for air cooling as recommended in Ncore data sheet
Ncore amp board
Hypex SMPS600 PS
IEC socket
connecting wire
1 XLR input
1 RCA input
2 Speakon posts
2 Speaker binding post
1 on off switch
Any special wire or other special characteristics of the above needed? Anything missing from the above?
Note: you can build a stereo Ncore in one case with 2 amp modules and just one SMPS 600 supply, but Hypex recommends using 2 power supplies.
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firedog - Your list looks complete but it leaves the question of which of those things do I get with the kit and which do I have to provide.
If we take a tip from Apple, we would list what's in the box first, and then what else will you need. Also important to split out what is needed for stereo and what is needed for dual mono.
So far, none of the lists or descriptions I've seen does this.
Taking it further, an experienced builder might even list the required pieces and source them with links included.
There are, after all, the utterly clueless like me who can use all the guidance, instruction and advice you can provide. Testimonials I have seen indicate that anyone can do this but don't take into account that many of us haven't the foggiest notion of how to know what connects where. Another thing that might be useful is any indication as to where you HAVE TO solder and where you can get away with crimping clips on wires.
I'm sure this will all be better illustrated and better described as more of us travel this terrain.
For now though, many questions continue to hover.
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Has anyone considered using the Bybee Music Rails between the the SMPS and the amplier module to reduce power supply noise even more. Might make a great amp, greaterer!
FYI--I have been using Hypex UCD400HGs for three years now and like them a lot. The NCores are on my most wanted list.
Chris H.
I know the bybeelabs mr requires dc voltage for it to work. It also requires extra parts/circuitry for any voltage higher than 30 volts, and the Ncore has multiple voltage requirements.
Have you implemented the bybeelabs mr with your ucd 400hg? Perhaps you should do that first and report back.
Anand.
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Let's try and make this easy for newbies (like me). To build a monoblock Ncore amp, you need:
suitable case - with enough space for air cooling as recommended in Ncore data sheet
Ncore amp board
Hypex SMPS600 PS
IEC socket
connecting wire
1 XLR input
1 RCA input
2 Speakon posts
2 Speaker binding post
1 on off switch
Any special wire or other special characteristics of the above needed? Anything missing from the above?
Note: you can build a stereo Ncore in one case with 2 amp modules and just one SMPS 600 supply, but Hypex recommends using 2 power supplies.
I do not understand why you have Speakon posts listed? Why do you have a separate RCA input listed? The best recommendation for owners who have single ended preamps or sources is to either purchase/make a RCA to Xlr cable, or use a RCA to Xlr adapter right at the input of the Ncore amp (my preferred choice, so you can freely use your existing RCA interconnect). I try to stick with the KISS principle.
Best, Anand.
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There is no kit, per se, but from what I gather, when you buy an amp board and Hypex power supply, you get all cabling and connectors that are necessary for all internal connections, except for wire to connect the amp to the outputs (that is, to the speaker posts that you choose, speakon or otherwise).
These parts and connections are all identified in the Hypex datasheets; for the power supply, they are described on pages 6 and 7, and for the amp board, on pages 4 and 5.
So aside from all of the chassis connectors, you need to supply wire from the amp board to the speaker posts, and wiring and switches for any of those you add unless the IEC you choose includes a power switch.
I believe that none of the stuff listed below is included -- and most would choose either an RCA or an XLR, not both. Bruno makes a real fuss about usng XLR, so I will go with that and use XLR-RCA converter on the input:
> suitable case
> IEC socket
> 1 XLR input
> 1 RCA input
> 2 Speakon posts
> 2 Speaker binding post
> 1 on off switch
I am hoping to be able to sort out how to use nAMPON function (see pin3, page 5, amp datasheet), which I think is a way to keep the power supply powered, while turning off the amp board.
The image below, which is from the DIYAudio thread, shows the modules and basic wiring (for RCA input), including a switch (the red toggle), which I suspect is controlling the nAMPON function.
If anyone knows about the nAMPON function for sure, please pipe up!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61158)
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At the simplest level you need the following:
1). Case if made of aluminum no ventilation is required
2). An input either XLR or Single Ended -> XLR is prefered
3). An IEC with power switch
4). Speaker binding posts
Here is an example of a simple rear case.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61160)
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If anyone knows about the nAMPON function for sure, please pipe up!
the nAMPon line is to enable the amp out of "mute" mode. attach the nAMPon line to ground and the amp is operational, ie on.
when the line is high (not connected to ground) the amp is muted.
This is a convenient way to put the amp in standby, the draw is about 5W then.
There is also a connection on the SMPS to turn the SMPS off, but it requires an external power supply to work.
all this is in the manual, although many people have been confused by the nAMPon connection.
cheers
Alan
ps I have two mono block nCores, quite happy. See my reviews in diy
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Alan, thanks, that's helpful, as are your comments on the thread at DIYAudio.
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Thanks for posting Alan. :thumb:
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TRL Dude which is a tube pre.
Hmm I'll be quite interested to audition the combo, to note how these ultra low distortion power amps react with tube pre-amps which have quite higher distortion figures.
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I will be using a tube preamp (fully loaded Atma-Sphere MP-1 MK 3.1) with them next when I give them a listen.
Eagerly awaiting your feedback. :thumb:
Wondering how a B1 buffer would fare. Has anyone tried it?
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Hmm I'll be quite interested to audition the combo, to note how these ultra low distortion power amps react with tube pre-amps which have quite higher distortion figures.
Please stop making an assumption that tubes equal higher distortion.
This hasn't been true for quite some time now.
George
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Please stop making an assumption that tubes equal higher distortion.
This hasn't been true for quite some time now.
Seems to have ruffled some feathers here. :duh:
I was making a general statement George. Incidentally, I have a NOS DAC with dual TDA 1541 chips and dual EC88CC tubes at the output stage. I also have a pre-amp which is a design inspired by Marantz 7 with 62NP (Russian) tubes.
I'm specially sold on the NOS DAC.
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Seems to have ruffled some feathers here. :duh:
I was making a general statement George. Incidentally, I have a NOS DAC with dual TDA 1541 chips and dual EC88CC tubes at the output stage. I also have a pre-amp which is a design inspired by Marantz 7 with 62NP (Russian) tubes.
I'm specially sold on the NOS DAC.
Not ruffling feathers.
Just trying not to have old stereotypes perpetuated.
George
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Incidentally he (Bruno) has alluded to a world beating dac on the way, as well as speakers... stay tuned.
Whoa, just what the Doctor ordered. Could you point to us where was he quoted stating this?
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Bruno has been involved with the Grimm Audio (http://www.grimmaudio.com/hifi_loudspeakers_ls1.htm) venture for some time. Grimm makes an active multi-way dipole that uses a crossover, DAC and (NCore) amps built by Hypex.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61299)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61300)
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Whoa, just what the Doctor ordered. Could you point to us where was he quoted stating this?
I can try and dig up the quote but it's very early in development. He has a couple going I think but the one I was talking about, he was alluding to as an upcoming project.
Incidentally, not to ruffle anymore..feathers, but Bruno is no fan of tube preamps, tube anything. Given the ncore, take that for what you will.
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Grimm makes an active multi-way dipole that uses a crossover, DAC and (NCore) amps built by Hypex.
It is a sealed monopole. Except for the ubiqitous mid-bass to tweeter XO right where XOs are worst, seems pretty well thot out.
dave
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It is a sealed monopole.
You are correct. The details of the design are all contained here: http://www.grimmaudio.com/product_info/grimm%20ls1%20leaflet.pdf (http://www.grimmaudio.com/product_info/grimm%20ls1%20leaflet.pdf). Everything seems to have been done for a reason, including the placement of the XO point. The fact that they were able to deliver a TP design using IIR is an impressive feat IMO.
Anyway, this seems like a diversion from the intent of the thread. I brought Grimm up because it uses NCore amps and has built-in DACs (DLCP) apparently also made by Hypex.
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So I guess anyone who tries one of these amps and doesn't fall immediately in love with the sound (or lack of it) must have an affinity for colored sound?
What is an objective definition of coloration?
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What is an objective definition of coloration?
Good question, maybe some of the experts can help answer it. I'm excited to try this new amp and admit that I'm a sceptic at heart. Most "miracle" products I have tried have rarely lived up to the hype or my own expectations.
Please note, I'm excited to hear this new amp and hope it is as good as people say. Lots of people who I genuinely respect are saying very positive things. Looking forward to checking it out and making up my own mind.
JTWRace is very generous and trusting, letting people demo his cool new amp. Although I missed the original sign up, I'm hoping to hear it at Roscoe's place.
Cheers
Jack
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What speakers were you driving with them?
Are you going to pull the trigger and order some ?
Thanks,
Tim
Tim - My speakers are a horn hybrid arrangement that I cobbled together. They are about 96-98 db. efficiency and can't be named concisely. If you are interested in more detail, I'll lay it out for you.
The short answer is big wooden horns with 2 inch compression drivers, passive crossovers and a 15 inch woofer in ported cabinet.
I have placed an order but I haven't yet paid. I plan to use a PS and an amplifier module for each speaker. I'm thinking of incorporating the amps into a box along with my outboard XO.
That way I can just hardwire the crossovers to the amp outputs. That just leaves 2 connections, AC in and preamp in. Perhaps I'll have my cabinet guy build boxes for them.
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... They are about 96-98 db. efficiency ...
... I have placed an order but I haven't yet paid. ...
Thanks for the info. I went from 101 dB to 84 dB speakers. Both ends have their issues and liked both for what they did best.
The 101 dB speakers were a great noise detector and had me fixing/replacing things that other speakers never even noticed.
The NC400's sound very clean from the reviews so far, but I am still concerned if they have the grunt for a difficult load.
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The NC400's sound very clean from the reviews so far, but I am still concerned if they have the grunt for a difficult load.
They are bridgeable for I think 1200 watts @ 4 ohms. Got that from DIYaudio thread. Sounds a bit high but that's what's reported. Either way, bridgeable for super high power.
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So I guess anyone who tries one of these amps and doesn't fall immediately in love with the sound (or lack of it) must have an affinity for colored sound?
Funny. Earlier I was appreciating that I must be defective, because I've never been entirely happy unless I've had tubes somewhere in the chain.
And I've got three pre-amps... yeah, all tube... so when I get to hear these things (I have a pair ordered), there will still be tubes.
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Can anyone tell me when finished Ncore (new module) amps will be available for sale for us non do it yourself types. I can't wait to try these amps out. Thanks!
Joe
There are sum total two Ncore amps: DIY (400W @ 4 Ohms with one SMPS600 PS per channel, no OEM volume discounts, OEM not prohibited/not solicited) and IIRC OEM 600W @ 4 Ohms. The first and only known OEM Ncore is huge and gorgeous Theta monoblock with analog PS, $6k/ch MSRP.
FYI: for DIY, after sourcing a chassis (precut available from other than Hypex), the only wiring is AC line, input/output and plugging in the amp to ps harness.
Two things I heard at CES 2012 may have been new audio benchmarks for me. The sound is still in my head, and I'm hoping Ncore delivers some of the effect. Hard to say which of these two systems were better:
Aesthetic mono blocks (hybrid, $16k-ish/pair IIRC) driving Vandersteen Carbon 5 (IIRC)
New ModWright tube preamp with on-board DAC (combining the two saves at least one gain stage), ModWright's best stereo amp (IIRC 150W SE) driving AudioMachina speakers (cabinets milled from solid blocks of aluminum...I suppose at least one panel like the rear is screwed into place)
Both systems had a mesmerizing overall presence, coherence, and musicality that was unique and irresistible. Such effects require world class amps.
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... They are bridgeable for I think 1200 watts @ 4 ohms. ...
I don't know how they can get 1200 from 2x400.
When bridging, I thought the limit is usually a factor of 2X ??? 1200 would be a factor of 3X which doesn't sound correct. Any ideas ?
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"... Yes you can bridge two modules just like UcD (and just like UcD it helps to strap a small cap across the load to insure the two amps synchronize). This would make a 1200W/4ohm amp (NC1200 is 1200W/2ohm). ...
But three of them? :green:"
- from Bruno.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-360.html#post2980644
oh, hey, I pulled that from your post Tim. It seems you can have everything with these amps.
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I don't know how they can get 1200 from 2x400.
When bridging, I thought the limit is usually a factor of 2X ??? 1200 would be a factor of 3X which doesn't sound correct. Any ideas ?
Each module is seeing half the load impedance. If the amp were able to push double the power into half the load then the bridged rating would be four times. However, they usually can't, so the bridged rating is somewhat less than four times. You can see in the datasheet that the NC400 is rated at 400W into 4 ohms and 580W into 2 ohms, so when bridged into 4 ohms, you get double 580 i.e. roughly 1200W into 4 ohms.
Not all amps will work well into 2 ohms, so you may see the spec you are thinking of which would be e.g. 400W into 4 ohms and 800W into 8 ohm.
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... But three of them? :green: ...
Each module is seeing half the load impedance. If the amp were able to push double the power into half the load then the bridged rating would be four times. However, they usually can't, so the bridged rating is somewhat less than four times. You can see in the datasheet that the NC400 is rated at 400W into 4 ohms and 580W into 2 ohms, so when bridged into 4 ohms, you get double 580 i.e. roughly 1200W into 4 ohms.
Not all amps will work well into 2 ohms, so you may see the spec you are thinking of which would be e.g. 400W into 4 ohms and 800W into 8 ohm.
JohnR and RClark,
Thanks for your responses.
The "But three of them?" confused me. I have never seen 3 amps used in a bridged configuration, only 2.
So in bridged mode, the amps would be seeing a 2 Ohm load on 4 Ohm speakers. That maybe stressing them a bit, but the specs state "Lower load impedances are allowed".
- Output power 580W/2ohms, THD=1%
- Output power 400W/4ohms, THD=1%
- Output power 200W/8ohms, THD=1%
- Characterised from open circuit down to 2 ohm. Lower load impedances are allowed, 24A current limit
- Signal-to-noise ratio: unweighted, min 124dB re full power, 101dB re 2.8Vrms
- Output impedance: typ. 0.7 milliohms (corresponds to a DF of 11000)
- PSRR: better than 85dB
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf (http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf)
Just checked the Datasheet. The minimum recommended Load Impedance is 1 Ohm.
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The datasheet rates them as 580W into 2 ohms.
I'm not going to go back and check, but the "three of them" quote now falsely attributed to me is I believe a reference to JimR's purchase of 3 modules presumably for his trinaural setup, not a reference to bridging.
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..., but the "three of them" quote now falsely attributed to me ...
JohnR,
I wasn't implying "three of them" came from you, sorry.
It came from a post from ackcheng "http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-42.html#post2727430 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-42.html#post2727430), post #419.
"Hi Bruno,
Can you NC400 be Bridged to get more power? 3 of them will make NC1200! "
I missed the "joke" in the post. I read (3x400wpc = 1200wpc).
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George,
thanks for the quick revue.
Very promissing.
Can you tell us how sensitive your speakers are
The Ncore "only" delivers 200/400w at 8/4 ohm
(speakers with 85db/w as maggies needs a lots of watts)
Jerry
In your case (or with Sound Labs for example) bridging to get 600W @ 8ohms could be helpful
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In your case (or with Sound Labs for example) bridging to get 600W @ 8ohms could be helpful
Is it easy to bridge two Ncore400?
Just to connect 2 units (+ and -)to 1 speakerpost(L and R))
Jerry
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I like a good project and especially one I can put to good use. My biggest concern is using a single ended preamp and not inducing noise, even if I were to set these amps up as balanced. Having the amps balanced is a waste if fed from a SE pre isn't it?
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I like a good project and especially one I can put to good use. My biggest concern is using a single ended preamp and not inducing noise, even if I were to set these amps up as balanced. Having the amps balanced is a waste if fed from a SE pre isn't it?
Have you read the data sheet that I've linked for you?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105527.msg1079142#msg1079142
I use the same pre that you do so why do you think it would be an issue?
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I like a good project and especially one I can put to good use. My biggest concern is using a single ended preamp and not inducing noise, even if I were to set these amps up as balanced. Having the amps balanced is a waste if fed from a SE pre isn't it?
Not if the cabling is configured properly. There are examples in the documentation on how to connect to a single ended source and keep the noise down. I know jtwrace is using a SE preamp and he had no issues that I know of using a RCA/XLR adapter.
Urp, Jason posted about the same time I did. :)
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Have you read the data sheet that I've linked for you?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105527.msg1079142#msg1079142
I use the same pre that you do so why do you think it would be an issue?
Looked at it and I am not rebuilding 26 foot interconnects. I built them with a pos and neg and a light twist. I am not going back to shield them which means taking off the covering and recovering as shielded.
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I am not going back to shield them which means taking off the covering and recovering as shielded.
Why not? What kind of wire are you using?
-Jim
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Cannot wait to get mine, hopefully shipment after this one, looks like. And again, sad to have missed out on the tube generation, but happy to be able to have amps with such game changing performance and game changing price. Disruptive tech indeed. I can't wait to let them disrupt my eardrums.
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Looked at it and I am not rebuilding 26 foot interconnects. I built them with a pos and neg and a light twist. I am not going back to shield them which means taking off the covering and recovering as shielded.
Well, if you get the NCores, they are so small that you can keep them on the side with your other equipment instead of the center like your TRL Samson's. But you need to audition them first to come to that conclusion.
Best,
Anand.
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Why not? What kind of wire are you using?
-Jim
An incredible pain in the arse to re-do those cables with 12 pieces of 14 gauge in them. This is why I am very interested in seeing others use single ended cabling and what their results are.
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I'm entirely capable of building these amps. I'm just setting out the question so when other folks get their amps up and running I want to know if they encounter noise issues and what they may need to do. If they work fine with single ended cabling longer than a few meters then I will be encouraged to try them out.
Certainly a balanced system reduces possibility for noise but I cannot go there and want to see how others fair. I think it is a potential issue for others to know as well so I'd like to see users tell us their configurations so we can see how this pans out.
I see the build of the amp much easier than putzing with those cables again (because they are so long). Working inside an open area of a metal box would be a relief than cramping my fingers up stringing wire into sheathing!
Well, if you get the NCores, they are so small that you can keep them on the side with your other equipment instead of the center like your TRL Samson's. But you need to audition them first to come to that conclusion.
Best,
Anand.
There is a slight possibility I could audition these sooner rather than later. We'll see. A side by side with the Samsons would be very cool.
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I'm entirely capable of building these amps. I'm just setting out the question so when other folks get their amps up and running I want to know if they encounter noise issues and what they may need to do. If they work fine with single ended cabling longer than a few meters then I will be encouraged to try them out.
Certainly a balanced system reduces possibility for noise but I cannot go there and want to see how others fair. I think it is a potential issue for others to know as well so I'd like to see users tell us their configurations so we can see how this pans out.
I see the build of the amp much easier than putzing with those cables again (because they are so long). Working inside an open area of a metal box would be a relief than cramping my fingers up stringing wire into sheathing!
There is a slight possibility I could audition these sooner rather than later. We'll see. A side by side with the Samsons would be very cool.
My interconnects are 12' long and TomS' interconnects are 20' long. No issues with either system and we both use the same pre as you. Again, that should pretty much take care of your concern.
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My DH Labs Air Matrix IC's are 8 meters with XLR's on both ends and a 6" RCA-XLR adapter with commensurate jumpering on the Dude end. No noise in my setup at all. The NCores rock big time, as mentioned by many others.
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My DH Labs Air Matrix IC's are 8 meters with XLR's on both ends and a 6" RCA-XLR adapter with commensurate jumpering on the Dude end. No noise in my setup at all. The NCores rock big time, as mentioned by many others.
That's a start. I have no idea if the shielding, while not being used in full balanced mode, of the cabling is helping. Can I send you some predecessor cables of mine that are shorter than 8 meters to try out? They are built like what I have now, just less wire in them, but unshielded all the way through. With the set up I have now I would expect no noise but I am not sure if the Samsons are "grounded" in the either of the same schemes you can build the NCores. It probably is not an issue, but a drop in would be the super duper ideal scenario all else staying the same. I don't want too much!
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That's a start. I have no idea if the shielding, while not being used in full balanced mode, of the cabling is helping. Can I send you some predecessor cables of mine that are shorter than 8 meters to try out? They are built like what I have now, just less wire in them, but unshielded all the way through. With the set up I have now I would expect no noise but I am not sure if the Samsons are "grounded" in the either of the same schemes you can build the NCores. It probably is not an issue, but a drop in would be the super duper ideal scenario all else staying the same. I don't want too much!
My cables are unshielded. No issues.
http://silversonic.com/docs/products/Revelation.html
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Is it easy to bridge two Ncore400?
Just to connect 2 units (+ and -)to 1 speakerpost(L and R))
Jerry
Yes it is pretty easy, Bruno's reply when asked:
Yes you can bridge two modules just like UcD (and just like UcD it helps to strap a small cap across the load to insure the two amps synchronize). This would make a 1200W/4ohm amp (NC1200 is 1200W/2ohm).
So 600W/8ohm
As per the Hypex UcD Faq
You need to drive one of the modules 180 degrees out of phase by simply swapping the negative and positive input signal wires. Tie the loudspeaker between both positive loudspeaker outputs of the amplifiers and connect a 47n/200V capacitor across the loudspeaker terminals at the amplifiers’ side. This set-up is most applicable for 8 Ohm loads since each amplifier ‘sees’ 4 Ohms with an 8 Ohm load attached. A 4 Ohm load might trigger the current protection leaving you with not nearly as much power as you might have expected.
This setup will work into 4 ohm with the Ncore (not with the UcD modules) and will deliver a lot of power into 2 ohm but at that point in bridged mode there could be current limiting. $3k for 1200/4ohm with the reported quality is a game changer for the amp market, if you need that much power.
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Yes it is pretty easy, Bruno's reply when asked:
So 600W/8ohm
As per the Hypex UcD Faq
This setup will work into 4 ohm with the Ncore (not with the UcD modules) and will deliver a lot of power into 2 ohm but at that point in bridged mode there could be current limiting. $3k for 1200/4ohm with the reported quality is a game changer for the amp market, if you need that much power.
Thanks for the info.
Jerry
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Anyone see any issues using a pre-amp and speakers with these specs? Steinberg MR816 as pre with balanced outputs of nominal output of +4db@600ohms(or a behringer deq2496 balanced outpus 100ohm@ 1khz) => Ncore's => 89db@4ohm monitors? Just triple checking as I don't wish to fry anything. :oops:
Thanks
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Eagerly awaiting your feedback. :thumb:
Wondering how a B1 buffer would fare. Has anyone tried it?
Not that I am aware of. Bruno recommencd a balanced input and some of the folks at DIY audio have built balanced B1's.
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I think that, once you hear the Ncore 400 anywhere, you will realize there isn't much need for direct comparison. This is not your typical flavor of the month, here and gone, temporary phenomenon. It is the real deal. Something altogether new.
I can tell by the tone of many of the comments that you just don't get what is being said here. I figured I would take Jason up on his offer to send them to me and then go back to my Yamaha because I'm just too damn lazy anymore to care if it is better. But it was so emphatically better and so infinitely more lifelike that even jaded, cynical curmudgeonly me had to take action. Mine are in the pipeline and I'm scheduled for week 21.
Frankly, I would advise anyone who is curious enough to be following this thread to just take the plunge and place your order. The lines are getting longer.
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I love how this endless list of top end amps is bested by the ncore, but people are still like, yeah.... But I wonder how it would compare to my midrange, average amp, cause that would be a REAL contest :scratch:
What I want to know is how it will compare to a NAD amp. :P
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Actually ,Hopefully .The Hypex 1200 be available for DIY sooner then later :icon_lol:
Lapsan
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What I want to know is how it will compare to a NAD amp. :P
I know this was tongue-in-cheek, but actually the NAD M2 would be an interesting comparison, albeit not quite apples-to-apples. The M2 has spectacular measured performance and might well be an honest contender in a comparison.
Placed my order, even though I'm likely to be in a state of flux for a while and still don't know what my speakers will be. Still my working model of NAD M51-> NCore -> Tempesta (or Salk SCST, or Abbey/Cirrus if I find some more pennies) is shaping up nicely.
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You guy's are killing me...... where do I order :duh:
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You guy's are killing me...... where do I order :duh:
https://www.hypexshop.com/
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How many modules can be strapped to a single power supply?
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How many modules can be strapped to a single power supply?
2
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How many modules can be strapped to a single power supply?
I would say two would be a good limit, the supply is rated for 600W, so even that is cutting the power by 50%. Not that most folks need it all, at least most of the time. One could get two modules and one PS in the CoZ cables chassis with a little tweaking of the rear panel.
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Three years ago when I listened to the Hypex UcD modules I instantly knew they were severe over-achievers. To this day I still know this to be the case. Point being, I'll bet my underwear that the Ncore and UcD share a lot more in common (sonically) than most folks might think. (Why might I think that?)
Of course the do, but if you read some of Mr. Putzeys post on the (admittedly huge) diyaudio thread, he discusses the differences.
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I find this thread quite amusing.
Three years ago when I listened to the Hypex UcD modules I instantly knew they were severe over-achievers. To this day I still know this to be the case. Point being, I'll bet my underwear that the Ncore and UcD share a lot more in common (sonically) than most folks might think. (Why might I think that?)
Maybe I should have sent my UcD amps around the country to gain audiophile acceptance instead of keeping the secret all to myself. :lol:
I had UcD amps in my system (CI Audio D-200's) and while they were good, in no way were they close to the level of performance of the Ncore amps.
I preferred half a dozen amps over the D-200's and they weren't close to the level of performance of the Atma-Sphere amps that have been my reference amp for the past few years.
George
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Any word on an OEM build other than Theta??? Then again I was looking at the Pass 100.5's, so....
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Actually ,Hopefully .The Hypex 1200 be available for DIY sooner then later
Not the nc1200, of the ncores only the nc400 will be DIY for a long time. Hypex wanted only one ncore DIY module to prevent cannibalization of their vastly larger OEM market. There are however more choices of UcD modules, and all of that line will soon have a few significant improvements which arose from development of the ncore circuit.
Note that the nc1200 differs little from the nc400, around 2.3dB (~70%) more powerful. The former is named by its 4 Ohm rating, whereas the nc1200 is name for its 2 Ohm rating, which is more familiar to PA folks.
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I see some have mentioned ICEPower. I haven't heard Ncore yet (still waiting for them to be shipped), but I've compared ICEPower 125ASX2 with UcD 400HG with HxR. UcD modules were much more transparent. No comparison really. The 125ASX2 are very nice, but they are actually somewhat tube like in the treble with a warm presentation. On the speakers i tried them with, they also gave me a lean middle or upper bass compared to UcD. The UcD sounded fuller with more bass. Not sure why.
The 125ASX2 are considered to be better then ICEPower ASP modules. I have heard ASP modules and had active speakers with them, but never had the chance to directly compare them to ASX2 or UcD.
As far as I know Bel Canto uses ICEPower.
And considering that Ncore is a notch or two better then UcD, there shouldn't be much of a comparison really.
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Just in case the price of all this glory has escaped the notice of some readers, I'll tell you what it is costing me.
I used a wire transfer to pay Hypex $1351.56 for the 2 NC400 modules and the 2 SMPS600 power supplies. The wire transfer cost $50. Total so far is $1401.56.
Then I will be having them assembled for me as monos for another $100 per amplifier including all wire and all connectors and switches. My cases will be coming from C0Z for $125 each. That brings the sum total to $1851.56.
The only other additional costs will be postage to forward the parts to my builder and shipping to return the finished amplifiers to me. Under $1900 all in.
Now please, for the sake of keeping all this talk a little bit sane, compare that <$1900 outlay to the price of whatever amplification you are thinking of for comparison. Your conclusion should be obvious. The NC400 is being considered as possibly the best amplifier available at any price and you can have your own pair of monoblocks for under $2K. And if you build your own and get clever about cases, you might keep the cost closer to $1500.
What is there to think about? The only legitimate concern I've seen here so far concerns extreme power needs. Every other possible concern has been asked and answered. Now that mine are in the pipeline, I no longer see any reason not to push you toward this purchase.
And, in case you are asking yourself if I have Hypex stock, the answer is, "Wish I did".
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Reality is that these things are very expensive. Not many people would send a company $1,500 for what is essentially a product prototype. However, I do hope they live up to what some posters indicate is world class sound. Nick77 answered my PM and has graciously agreed to let me hear them at his house here in Austin after they arrive.
Here is Hypex' reply to my pricing question:
"Hello,
We only sell these products direct. Indeed the price might be serious, however from all feedbacks we have so far the majority of the customers do find the modules very, very reasonable priced. Some of them do have the opinion they are cheap as they have replaced big and rather expensive Class A amplifiers the previously owned…
Anyway if you still like to buy them please go to our webshop www.hypexshop.com
Best regards,"
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Gotcha. No good deed eh.
Like I said, I will be trying them once the 6-9 month FOTM sell off begins.
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David,
Hi. Long time no talk. I forgot about that nice review on CA. Great stuff. Did you ever get these over to the guy who had the Clayton's?
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Reality is that these things are very expensive. Not many people would send a company $1,500 for what is essentially a product prototype. However, I do hope they live up to what some posters indicate is world class sound. Nick77 answered my PM and has graciously agreed to let me hear them at his house here in Austin after they arrive.
I have been following thr Ncore saga since last summer. I would disagree they are a product prototype, this is a fully engineered product that was designed for the DIY market. The DIY market had done a lot to get the word out on the UcD modules and are doing the same with the Ncore.
They also have modules with more power that are geared for the OEM market for those uncomfortable with hooking up the NC400's
IMO the price is very fair the assemply work is far less than simpler than with most amps.
They probably sell more amps through the OEM channel than through the DIY channel. It is very nice of Bruno to make these modules to the DIY market, especially when you see the prices derived from the NC1200 modules.
I am sure not everyone will feel they are the 'best' amps, but based on what I am reading they seem to provide a great price/performance, reminds me of the Gedlee speakers, perhaps not the 'best' but clearly a great price performance proposition .
These amps are somewhat expensive for a kit, but not any more than some 300b amps for example.
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I have been following thr Ncore saga since last summer. I would disagree they are a product prototype, this is a fully engineered product that was designed for the DIY market. The DIY market had done a lot to get the word out on the UcD modules and are doing the same with the Ncore.
They also have modules with more power that are geared for the OEM market for those uncomfortable with hooking up the NC400's
IMO the price is very fair the assemply work is far less than simpler than with most amps.
They probably sell more amps through the OEM channel than through the DIY channel. It is very nice of Bruno to make these modules to the DIY market, especially when you see the prices derived from the NC1200 modules.
I am sure not everyone will feel they are the 'best' amps, but based on what I am reading they seem to provide a great price/performance, reminds me of the Gedlee speakers, perhaps not the 'best' but clearly a great price performance proposition .
These amps are somewhat expensive for a kit, but not any more than some 300b amps for example.
Kevin, I would agree with you. I would not rate the NC 400 as a prototype. This is a fully engineered amplifier module with companion power supply. The build quality is excellent. As a Geddes Abbey speaker owner I would also agree with your comparison of the NC 400 to the Abbey on a price/performance basis. All I can say is that the NC 400's are well worth an audition if you seek the finest in audio amplification.
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Hi Ted, hope all is well with you. I heard the Clayton's at jtwrace's house about 2-3 weeks before I got my NCOREs. His system is almost identical to mine. I sent Jason my NCOREs where he and Anand had the opportunity to A/B them versus the Clayton. Jason and Anand both bought the NCORE based on that audition. I also sent mine to Tom S who subsequently bought them.
Yeah, should have put a smiley face after the Clayton question. It was a joke, referring to your comment on the CA review, and then fast-forwarding to this wonderful generous gesture (tour) by an ex-Clayton owner. :) (Guess I'm having a bad "internet inflection" day).
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Yeah, should have put a smiley face after the Clayton question. It was a joke, referring to your comment on the CA review, and then fast-forwarding to this wonderful generous gesture (tour) by an ex-Clayton owner. :) (Guess I'm having a bad "internet inflection" day).
Ahh....I just got back from the west coast on a red eye so that one went right by me... :lol:
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Kevin, I would agree with you. I would not rate the NC 400 as a prototype. This is a fully engineered amplifier module with companion power supply. The build quality is excellent. As a Geddes Abbey speaker owner I would also agree with your comparison of the NC 400 to the Abbey on a price/performance basis. All I can say is that the NC 400's are well worth an audition if you seek the finest in audio amplification.
One of the things I see is the care with which the PC board layout was done, this if far more important with a Class D amp that a linear amp and is a factor in the quality of the amp. Also Bruno in talking with the DIY community went to a discrete input circuit rather than an opamp based front end.
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Where does one buy NCores? Do they have to be DIY?
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Where does one buy NCores? Do they have to be DIY?
Really? Have you read any of this and / or the related threads on Audiocircle or available via a Google search?
-Jim
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http://www.hypex.nl/
Jim, I think Art asked a perfectly reasonable question... there are so many pages, but not really a summary. If you go to the start of the thread, it doesn't really explain this tour, where to buy, or the fact that there is going to be completed units.
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Where does one buy NCores? Do they have to be DIY?
The NC 400 is a diy kit from hypex, there is an OEM module the NC 1200 that will be built into products from other vendors. I believe this new amp from Theta is Ncore 1200 based:
http://www.avhub.com.au/index.php/News/Hi-Fi/theta-goes-class-d-at-ces.html
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Really? Have you read any of this and / or the related threads on Audiocircle or available via a Google search?
-Jim
I haven't Jim, hence the question. But thanks for your kind and helpful response.
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Thanks Trader, thanks Kevin.
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The NC 400 is a diy kit from hypex, there is an OEM module the NC 1200 that will be built into products from other vendors. I believe this new amp from Theta is Ncore 1200 based:
http://www.avhub.com.au/index.php/News/Hi-Fi/theta-goes-class-d-at-ces.html
Theta told me last week that there was a delay on their amps due to working out their new pre-amp design.
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Frankly I think buying an oem version is a complete waste of money. you get more power anyway by bridging two nc400's, if you happen to need more than 400 watts.
All you're paying for is a fancy case, imo. Going from $1500 for nc400 mono's, or $3000 for bridged (or for those with active crossovers) for two sets, to $12,000 for the Theta's is just dumb, and missing the whole point.
I am sure Hypex's own Mola-Mola brand will not be that high priced. I and many others would just love to see a 15-25 watt version that runs off of batteries. With many new speakers in the 95-102 db/one watt sensitivity, who in the heck needs 200 watts?
And if you go with the Mola-Mola pre-amp and Dac, it would be nice to match the components.
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He's already said there's no point in making a low power version.
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He's already said there's no point in making a low power version.
I know he said that, but it still would be nice. 99db speakers and 15 watts will blow you out of any room with ease.
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He's already said there's no point in making a low power version.
Kinda agree...sounds like the amp excels at low volumes and adds basically zero noise. Sounds like a good match for regular and high-efficiency speakers.
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Not to be a skeptic, but so much of what I'm reading about them is what Bruno says they sound like to make me think a lot of confirmation bias is in effect.
What is "Confirmation Bias"?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/confirmation_bias.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Jim
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I haven't Jim, hence the question. But thanks for your kind and helpful response.
Extremely basic internet forum etiquette...search before you ask. If you are new to the internet, I apologize.
Based on the initial question and your follow-up response, I would say to stay FAR away from a stereo kit of any sort.
Ughh...I've already wasted too much time with this.
-Jim
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Not to be a skeptic, but so much of what I'm reading about them is what Bruno says they sound like to make me think a lot of confirmation bias is in effect.
What is "Confirmation Bias"?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/confirmation_bias.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Jim
Audiophiles are immune to that!! Duh!!
They can also remember the exact sound of 30 amps for up to 30 years.
Did you know Ncore cures cancer?
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And if you do accept our testimony, what possible benefit could you be seeking in a lower powered model? Are you looking for lower cost? Less energy consumption?
When I read Bruno's comment that there would be no benefit in building a lower powered model, I took it to mean that there was no way to make it cheaper and no other reason to make it smaller.
There would be a great benefit to create a lower powered amp. The lower the power, the easier to run off of batteries. To be honest, I would pay $3000 for a version that ran off of batteries, if this is as good as you say. The cost is no concern to me.
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Btw, one last thing on confirmation bias. I think the bias would be in "finding" oh it's class d so it must be bad.
Tom, batteries won't be n option. Besides, clearly the Bruno designed statement Ncore is matched by the Bruno designed statement smps.
i think worrying about power supply is a waste of energy.
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Btw, one last thing on confirmation bias. I think the bias would be in "finding" oh it's class d so it must be bad.
Tom, batteries won't be n option. Besides, clearly the Bruno designed statement Ncore is matched by the Bruno designed statement smps.
i think worrying about power supply is a waste of energy.
I know Bruno said that, I was the one that asked him. But he also said he was considering to build them for the auto industry, and the last time I checked, autos uses batteries.
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With a DIY like this how can you be sure every amp is goin go to sound the same ? Could there be an inconsistency in the final sound of each since these are DIY'ers ?
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These are barely DIY.
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haven't received my ncores yet, so no listening impressions yet, BUT
I can't understand why folks are getting so worked up. Audiophiles expressing their opinions with hyperbole. That never happens :lol: Are we so old that a little unconstrained enthusiasm is a bad thing?
The Ncore doesn't have to be the best. If it is nearly competitive with some of truly great amps, at less than $2k, that is something to be curious about and to be expectant about, if you have ordered a pair.
BTW, on the diyaudio thread Hypex posted that DIY is less than 10% of their market. Maybe they are truly excited about their product and maybe they intend to make lots of bread, but they aren't doing that with the DIY product we here a buying.
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There are sum total two Ncore amps: DIY (400W @ 4 Ohms with one SMPS600 PS per channel, no OEM volume discounts, OEM not prohibited/not solicited) and IIRC OEM 600W @ 4 Ohms. The first and only known OEM Ncore is huge and gorgeous Theta monoblock with analog PS, $6k/ch MSRP.
I think there may be more than two Ncore amps. I think there may be stealth 25 and 50 watt Ncores powering the drivers in the new version of B&W's Zeppelin Air.
Or I'm hallucinating.
I thought I read this about a month ago and posted a query on the DIY thread which generated no replies. No mention from B&W nor Hypex either. Has anyone here heard anything similar? I'm curious, now. :scratch:
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Where does one buy NCores? Do they have to be DIY?
Art,
Here is what you get from https://www.hypexshop.com (https://www.hypexshop.com) in the boxes for the NCore 400 and SMPS600. Putting them in appropriate cases and adjusting offset takes a couple hours. For mono blocks only 3 of those harnesses are used and mostly all wired up. The one with both connectors on it in the second pic goes between the PS and amp. There is a 2 wire AC connection and the 3 wire input connection to the XLR, which are on the right in the first pic. Others are not used, so not much to it at all. 3 screws for the Ncore, 4 for the SMPS and the case can usually suffice as a heat sink. Mine are not even luke warm.
Tom
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61863)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61864)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61865)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61866)
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What was the turnaround time on order to delivery and est cost of delivery to the states?
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What was the turnaround time on order to delivery and est cost of delivery to the states?
Current orders are being delivered in WW21 as noted on their commerce site under NCore400. Overnight UPS was $32 for my 4 pieces plus a $70 customs charge COD.
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At the risk of being castigated, I'd like to ask two buying questions ...
WK21 (from the website) means 21st week of 2012, correct? So an order today is forecast to ship the week of May 20th?
And it looks like the buyer's credit card is charged the full amount at purchase?
This thread (and the others it has spawned) has been a fun read.
Thanks.
David
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WK21 (from the website) means 21st week of 2012, correct? So an order today is forecast to ship the week of May 20th?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61871)
And it looks like the buyer's credit card is charged the full amount at purchase?
Yes
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Thanks for the confirmations!
By the way, that calendar info looks like it came from the same website I went to find out about "week 21":
http://www.epochconverter.com/date-and-time/weeknumbers-by-year.php (http://www.epochconverter.com/date-and-time/weeknumbers-by-year.php)
(Note: May 21 is a Monday so May 20 is obviously Sunday. I guess it depends on what one considers the start of the week)
Cheers,
David
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Thanks for the confirmations!
By the way, that calendar info looks like it came from the same website I went to find out about "week 21":
http://www.epochconverter.com/date-and-time/weeknumbers-by-year.php (http://www.epochconverter.com/date-and-time/weeknumbers-by-year.php)
(Note: May 21 is a Monday so May 20 is obviously Sunday. I guess it depends on what one considers the start of the week)
Cheers,
David
That's where I got it from. :)
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I would like to ask some naive questions.
- Would it help to use some thermal paste between the bottom of the PS and the bottom of the case?
- Would it help to have a metal case with 2 isolated compartments (1 for PS and 1 for amp)?
- Would it help to put chokes on the internal wiring harnesses?
- Would it help to shield the internal harnesses and ground the shields?
Documents from the Hypex site indicate twisting the leads near the power lines so I was wondering if the preceding would be additional help in heat transmission and noise isolation.
Thanks,
Tim
From the NC400 datasheet:
12.1 Cable dressing
The NC400 module has exceedingly low distortion. This makes it very easy for extraneous causes to
add much more distortion and colouration than the amplifier itself. The first major cause of such
distortion is direct magnetic crosstalk from the supply cable into the audio input or the loudspeaker
output. This is minimized in several ways:
• Run the audio and power supply cables away from each other.
• Tie-wrap the supply cable to form a tight bunch.
• Tightly twist all loudspeaker cabling inside the chassis.
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Does anyone else think $2000 is very expensive for diy audio ?
I thought switching amps were usually low cost.
I can buy lots of great used/new amps of any type for that money.
I think the jury is still out that the ncore is equal to many amps double or triple their cost.
zeke
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That's the same point I brought up in another thread. These could be great amps, but at $2,000 for a low level DIY kit, that's expensive. They'd HAVE to compete with $4,000+ offerings to provide value at that point.
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Does anyone else think $2000 is very expensive for diy audio ?
I thought switching amps were usually low cost.
I can buy lots of great used/new amps of any type for that money.
I think the jury is still out that the ncore is equal to many amps double or triple their cost.
zeke
I hear you. Particularly as I rarely see diy efforts bought for $XXXX. So either shell out a lot more to have a really snazzy enclosure made to impress or accept the fact that it will be sold for, uh, not very much. Whoever comes up with $$$ custom enclosures for these amps will probably be busy... a plain black Antek isn't going to cut it for used >$1k amp. However the value will likely hold after buying used. I'll keep an eye on the Trading Forum in a few months. So buy up kids! :icon_twisted:
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deleted
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I would like to ask some naive questions.
- Would it help to use some thermal paste between the bottom of the PS and the bottom of the case?
No
- Would it help to have a metal case with 2 isolated compartments (1 for PS and 1 for amp)?
- Would it help to put chokes on the internal wiring harnesses?
- Would it help to shield the internal harnesses and ground the shields?
Documents from the Hypex site indicate twisting the leads near the power lines so I was wondering if the preceding would be additional help in heat transmission and noise isolation.
Thanks,
Tim
[/quote]
Not according to Bruno the designer
Section 10.1 here goes over the thermal considerations. http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
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I hear you. Particularly as I rarely see diy efforts bought for $XXXX. So either shell out a lot more to have a really snazzy enclosure made to impress or accept the fact that it will be sold for, uh, not very much. Whoever comes up with $$$ custom enclosures for these amps will probably be busy... a plain black Antek isn't going to cut it for used >$1k amp. However the value will likely hold after buying used. I'll keep an eye on the Trading Forum in a few months. So buy up kids! :icon_twisted:
I don't think a nicer case will bring up the resale price that much -- it is still diy, and many buyers hesitate buying used diy. But this may be different since there is not much diy to the project.
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Does anyone else think $2000 is very expensive for diy audio ?
I thought switching amps were usually low cost.
I can buy lots of great used/new amps of any type for that money.
I think the jury is still out that the ncore is equal to many amps double or triple their cost.
zeke
Based on the their performance, I would say they are a steal.
Most juries have 12 members. If you do some research, you can easily find at least 12 extremely positive reviews by people that have heard the ncore. In fact, I would challenge you to find one person that hasn't liked them. Nearly everyone I can find that has heard them has bought them...
No one is stopping you from buying all the used amps you want....bon appetite....
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Also, it can be done for well under $2k - $2k is for a top-end dual-mono build. A stereo build with a single PS and utilitarian case can be done for $1400, and with efficient speakers where you aren't tapping the power output you shouldn't be giving up anything in sound quality. this is the approach I'm taking.
I guess $1400 is expensive compared to $35 tripath boards or even the class-d-audio boards (which I own and quite like), but considering that in this case 'diy' is 'connecting some wires' I really don't know that there is much in the way of uncertainty or risk. It's not like buying someones F5 where you're at the mercy of their parts selection, soldering skills etc. Assuming these are as good as people are saying, $1400 for something that is competitive with absolute top-end gear is pretty reasonable.
As for resale, in the near future I'd guess you can get at least 70% of your investment back selling the raw parts - IMHO this is competitive with buying a new amp and selling it. Of course buying used you recoup more of your investment, but that's not exactly a fair comparison.
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I have never in my life seen such a DIY feeding frenzy, especially when considering this is for two amp channels costing about $1400 + chassis + a few ancillary parts, back ordered indefinitely (my unfilled order was originally scheduled to ship a few weeks ago).
I imagine a lot of amp makers other than Hypex reaching for an oxygen tank right about now, or pushing humungous pins into a voodoo doll depicting Bruno. Do they hear the proverbial "fat lady" singing?
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Based on the their performance, I would say they are a steal.
Most juries have 12 members. If you do some research, you can easily find at least 12 extremely positive reviews by people that have heard the ncore. In fact, I would challenge you to find one person that hasn't liked them. Nearly everyone I can find that has heard them has bought them...
No one is stopping you from buying all the used amps you want....bon appetite....
My post is about cost, not performance. I don't really care if they sound good, bad, or inbetween. But i hope they sound great, so i can enjoy them too when i am able to check them out later.
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Does anyone else think $2000 is very expensive for diy audio? I thought switching amps were usually low cost.
Yes, but per user feedback, not this particular DIY amp. Your question is misleading. One could easily spend much less than $2k.
[I can buy lots of great used/new amps of any type for that money.
Yes, you can, and should if you so desire. Has anyone attempted to stop you? Your term "great" describes performance, not cost.
I think the jury is still out that the ncore is equal to many amps double or triple their cost.
zeke
You are either in denial or simply need to continue reading. There's about 500 user pages on Ncore.
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There would be a great benefit to create a lower powered amp....
Except for some small problems: it definitely appears no one has built nor heard DC powered Ncore. Until then, and until it is A-Bd against Bruno's SMPS600, your statement seems untested and possibly misleading.
One user said Ncore is dead silent on speakers with 108 dB sensitivity. Such performance being rare to unknown prior to Ncore, one might suspect changing Ncore from AC to DC PS to benefit less if at all vs. amplifiers in general.
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I WANT A DC POWERED NCORE THAT IS LOW POWERED. AND COMPLETELY ENCASED IN SILICON GEL. I'VE NEVER HEARD IT BUT I KNOW THAT THIS WILL MAKE IT BETTER!!!!!!!!
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In my 28 years as a fireman, I definitely noticed that bowline knots tied by left-handed persons were significantly tidier and easier to use than the same knots tied by right-handed persons.
Similarly, underhanded clove hitch knots were more reliable than the same knots tied overhand.
(sarc/off)
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Yes, but per user feedback, not this particular DIY amp. Your question is misleading. One could easily spend much less than $2k.
Still think it is expensive -- just my opinion. Obviously, most don't as they are ordering them.
Yes, you can, and should if you so desire. Has anyone attempted to stop you? Your term "great" describes performance, not cost.
I hope no one attempts to stop me -- lol. I hope to continue trying lots of gear as i have been doing for many years. Yes, there are lots of great sounding amps for $2k. Don't know whether they sound better(imo) than ncore as i haven't heard it.
You are either in denial or simply need to continue reading. There's about 500 user pages on Ncore.
I am not in denial. I look forward to trying the ncore -- looks like it will be awhile tho.
Sorry -- the quotes and my replies didn't get divided up as i thought they would.
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I am still shaking my head over the schiit bifrost hysteria. Part of the reason I like the Classdaudioamps is that not *everybody* goes gaga over them - there are some who say well eh, I don't get it. For some reason that makes me fee better about my own admittedly high opinion of them. If the Ncores are indeed beyond awesome I am willing to wait for Bruno's next version which will no doubt be beyond awesomer.
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In my 28 years as a fireman, I definitely noticed that bowline knots tied by left-handed persons were significantly tidier and easier to use than the same knots tied by right-handed persons.
Similarly, underhanded clove hitch knots were more reliable than the same knots tied overhand.
Well James, you turned me on to the Pioneer D912 which has been quite a blessing in my meager listening space that must be tailored to She Who Must Not Be Irritated. So if you give thumbs up to the Ncore, I'll be there for when they fall off the FOTM truck.
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Tom is bringing his Ncores by tonight so we can try them out on the SoundScapes.
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Tom is bringing his Ncores by tonight so we can try them out on the SoundScapes.
Rutrow, Samsons on the block. :o
Very interesting...........
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Tom is bringing his Ncores by tonight so we can try them out on the SoundScapes.
:thumb: Now we're gettin' somewhere.
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Except for some small problems: it definitely appears no one has built nor heard DC powered Ncore. Until then, and until it is A-Bd against Bruno's SMPS600, your statement seems untested and possibly misleading.
One user said Ncore is dead silent on speakers with 108 dB sensitivity. Such performance being rare to unknown prior to Ncore, one might suspect changing Ncore from AC to DC PS to benefit less if at all vs. amplifiers in general.
Surely you have heard battery powered products in your system? Surely you have heard Danny Ritchie's GR Research system that he takes to the shows? His system gets some of the highest praise from all the audio reviewers.
One of the reason, Danny uses all battery powered products except the servo amps. I guess Danny is just being silly about batteries, correct?
I am not the only one that hears distortion from AC powered products.
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Besides the obvious "upgrade paths" of using extra fancy wire, IEC connectors and IC / speaker cables...has anyone looked at the NCore and thought about "rolling" the capacitors on top of the module or the power supply? Replacing screws with whatever vibration minimizing screws are out there? Highest quality solder or crimping mechanisms to achieve the best connections? I'm sure someone will try battery power at some point, but that's another complicated can of worms. I feel like these minor tweaks will be tried at some point, I'm wondering if anyone at AC who is handier at DIY than I am has given these any thoughts. I apologize in advance if any of these questions are silly...I don't know anything about DIY. Thanks all for your input and experience about these amps.
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Surely you have heard battery powered products in your system? Surely you have heard Danny Ritchie's GR Research system that he takes to the shows? His system gets some of the highest praise from all the audio reviewers.
One of the reason, Danny uses all battery powered products except the servo amps. I guess Danny is just being silly about batteries, correct?
I am not the only one that hears distortion from AC powered products.
I hear where you are coming from...but given that the main advantages I've heard in my admittedly limited experience with DC are silent/black backgrounds and excellent low level detail (qualities the NCores reportedly have), I don't think anyone here has taken that plunge yet. Someone will, and I will be interested in what they have to say. But until someone who has already laid out close to $2k to get the NCores up and running and invest their own time and $$ into creating a proper DC power supply, let's not crucify all the helpful people here who are just getting accustomed to their NCores running off of AC power.
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Surely you have heard battery powered products in your system? Surely you have heard Danny Ritchie's GR Research system that he takes to the shows? His system gets some of the highest praise from all the audio reviewers.
One of the reason, Danny uses all battery powered products except the servo amps. I guess Danny is just being silly about batteries, correct?
I am not the only one that hears distortion from AC powered products.
Surely you understand that that past performance is no guarantee of future results, nor are gross generalizations across broad product classes certainties....
There are people who have tried these with 100+db sensitive speakers and had 0 audible sound at the speaker. How can that be improved?
I am not saying that somehow battery power can't improve the performance of the Ncore, what I am saying is that it is far from certain that it will....
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Besides the obvious "upgrade paths" of using extra fancy wire, IEC connectors and IC / speaker cables...has anyone looked at the NCore and thought about "rolling" the capacitors on top of the module or the power supply? Replacing screws with whatever vibration minimizing screws are out there? Highest quality solder or crimping mechanisms to achieve the best connections? I'm sure someone will try battery power at some point, but that's another complicated can of worms. I feel like these minor tweaks will be tried at some point, I'm wondering if anyone at AC who is handier at DIY than I am has given these any thoughts. I apologize in advance if any of these questions are silly...I don't know anything about DIY. Thanks all for your input and experience about these amps.
No doubt it all will be tried as there are those people who are always messing with things.
If you read the comments about such thing by the designer, and listen to the amps, you may well be tempted to leave good enough alone....
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Tom is bringing his Ncores by tonight so we can try them out on the SoundScapes.
I'll be interested to hear how well the Ncore's drives your SoundScapes.
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No doubt it all will be tried as there are those people who are always messing with things.
If you read the comments about such thing by the designer, and listen to the amps, you may well be tempted to leave good enough alone....
I hear you, and from what I've been reading here I agree. However, it is in the audiophile's nature to tinker and experiment, so I imagine that people will do just that. Being a non-proficient DIY'er, I'm hoping that those who know what their doing and are in a position to experiment report if there are any possible improvements.
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Surely you understand that that past performance is no guarantee of future results, nor are gross generalizations across broad product classes certainties....
There are people who have tried these with 100+db sensitive speakers and had 0 audible sound at the speaker. How can that be improved?
I am not saying that somehow battery power can't improve the performance of the Ncore, what I am saying is that it is far from certain that it will....
This isn't why people use battery power for the most part. It helps create a blacker background as they say... Not just to eliminate the audible noise heard on a constant basis from high efficiency designs. Battery power is pretty awesome but a bit of a nuisance in some ways too.
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"If the Ncores are indeed beyond awesome I am willing to wait for Bruno's next version which will no doubt be beyond awesomer." :thumb:
"This isn't why people use battery power for the most part. It helps create a blacker background as they say... Not just to eliminate the audible noise heard on a constant basis from high efficiency designs. Battery power is pretty awesome but a bit of a nuisance in some ways too."
That's why I've preferred batteries. I'm sure people will be trying this soon with their ncore kits.
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That's why I've preferred batteries. I'm sure people will be trying this soon with their ncore kits.
I know someone who plans to give it a go when he receives his modules. Perhaps I can persuade him to publish his results here....I believe Bruno has already given his opinion on the matter but undoubtedly there will be those that have to try it for themselves.
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Me too Big Red. So spill. That is the ony reason I keep visiting this pissing contest thread.
As I recall you have heard an amp or two in your system. :lol:
I'll be interested to hear how well the Ncore's drives your SoundScapes.
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OK, in the interests of making some progress here, some people have been temporarily removed from posting. If this thread gets back on track in the next day or two, we will see if the SS Facilitator cares to be bothered to deal with it again and if so, I'll clean it up again and put it back.
Or, perhaps an NCore owners will propose an Owner's Circle with the standard procedure.
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1st post, so here goes
I joined audiocircle because there seemed to be an interesting set of conversations about the ncores (I now own a pair and I've watched the design process from the beginning)
So to start with a comment on one of the questions/comments raised in the thread (it is a questions and answers thread after all)
Re. batteries
The ncores have an extremely good PSRR (power supply rejection ratio) across a very wide frequency range, hence (among other things) they contain high quality discrete voltage regulators on-board (that's what all the leds are doing on the amp). So as a result they are highly immune to psu variations, mains variations and mains cable variations. That's the way they've been designed.
One of the reasons (the prime reason) why batteries have such a positive effect on other designs is because they don't have the same level of supply immunity.
Batteries are unlikely to have a major effect (if any) on the ncores. But i'm sure someone can readily try it out if they want, or if they think they need something more than they get from the stock amp and psu combination
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Batteries and low power:
Oh yes, and one of the comments from the designer was that dropping the supply voltage doesn't improve the low power performance. I can't remember exactly but I think it was that the linearity at low power benefits from a higher supply voltage (on a scale of being extremely linear under any conditions), so you get a better '1st watt' with the stock smps than you would if you dropped the supply voltage.
You can always substitute a lower voltage supply if you want (as long as you don't drop below the absolute minimum specified voltage)
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You can always substitute a lower voltage supply if you want (as long as you don't drop below the absolute minimum specified voltage)
Which, in case anyone is wondering, is (+/-) 35 V. (Per the spec sheet.)
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Which, in case anyone is wondering, is (+/-) 35 V. (Per the spec sheet.)
So if you go with a 36 volt battery, would that just lower the wattage? Or would you still get 200 watts, which I will never need.
I always hear an electronic glare with any SS amp I listen too, Class A, Class B. Class D, or Class xyz. Some tube amps give me the same problem. Blame my local electric company, that is what I do.
I can listen to the same amp after midnight and most of the glare, not all, disappears. Without the glare, I hear more presence in the air and detail by quite a bit. The vocals floats more magically.
A battery completely eliminates the glare. But if I do leave the charger on the battery while listening, some of the glare appears. Maybe I am just a little too fussy, but that glare is too fatiguing for me after about 10 minutes. I have to shut the system down
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OzarkTom, you might be able to do away with the batteries if you built yourself a felix power filter.
I live in a 16 story high rise with over 300 condo units in it and this simple power filter design pretty much eliminated glare and masking of information in my system.
I have zero listening fatigue, YMMV.
Scotty
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OzarkTom, you might be able to do away with the batteries if you built yourself a felix power filter.
I live in a 16 story high rise with over 300 condo units in it and this simple power filter design pretty much eliminated glare and masking of information in my system.
I have zero listening fatigue, YMMV.
Scotty
I have tried numerous power filters over the years. The glare is masked, but I always have lost some detail and imaging. The battery gives me everything plus more. Battery has always out-imaged the AC line.
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ChrisPa, thank you for your posts! I asked a question in one of the other threads, and your information indirectly got me to an answer with some insight as to why it works. I had asked about power conditioning ahead of the amps and how this related to the perceived noise floor. Your information regarding the regulation on the power supply was insightful.
Thanks again!
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So if you go with a 36 volt battery, would that just lower the wattage?
Per the spec sheet, yes - "Available output power depends on supply voltage"
You would need two of those batteries though.
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Per the spec sheet, yes - "Available output power depends on supply voltage"
You would need two of those batteries though.
:duh: Oops, I overlooked that detail. But now maybe I will order without the switching power supplies. I can always order the HSPS at a later date if I ever need to.
If I was building the Ncores with the HSPS for myself, I would put put the power supplies in a separate box in case a better after-market one came available.
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Per the spec sheet, yes - "Available output power depends on supply voltage"
You would need two of those batteries though.
JohnR, I wish I knew more about batteries. Would these 36V Dewalts work? You can get two plus the battery charger for $315.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Dewalt-36-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Batteries-With-Charger-DC9360-DC9000-/251048166781?pt=US_Power_Tools_Batteries_Chargers&hash=item3a73a3057d
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Honestly, I don't know. I'd assume they would work but whether it's a good choice or not... :dunno:
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Thanks John. I will search for more alternatives.
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You might also consider the noise factor. Different batteries have their own noise signature. I used to put small caps across the outputs of the NiCads powering my microphone preamps after reading that they also create a HF noise along with their DC. It rides on the DC, that is, it's not perfectly smooth.
You might want to look into that as well.
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Fwiw these guys http://www.veloceaudio.us/lev2/c_prod_v8.html (http://www.veloceaudio.us/lev2/c_prod_v8.html) use lithium batteries with the UCD modules and will continue doing so with the Ncores. They wouldn't touch the smps.
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Jonathon
Thank you
OzarkTom
It's (more than) well worth giving the stock supply a go. An smps is effectively a class D amp with the objective of only providing DC. An amp (any amp) takes it's power from the power supply (DC) any converts it into an alternating output voltage which matches the alternating input voltage. A power supply (any mains-in dc-out psu) takes an alternating supply voltage and converts it to a DC output voltage that matches it's DC input reference. If the job can be done on an audio signal then it can also be done on a DC reference to create a DC supply. If the amps are that good on AC, then why can't an smps be that good creating DC?
Power vs. supply voltage - yes the output power of any amp is limited by the maximum voltage swing it can drive on its output terminals, and the maximum voltage it can drive is when it reaches the supply voltage. So the higher the supply voltage the higher the power and vice versa
If you want to try batteries then be aware:
- below the absolute minimum on the spec sheet the amps are likely to go into protection mode (shut down). The voltage on a battery drops as the charge goes down it may not be discharged but it may not have enough voltage to keep the amp alive
- Russell is right about different batteries having different noise characteristics, because of having different frequency response characteristics. Batteries are designed/intended to provide DC/low frequency power; the class d amp is asking for (very) high frequency power, at the switching frequency of the amp, probably 0.5 MHz or higher. So caps in parallel seem an obvious requirement.
- class d amps have/cause an effect known as 'pump up' where they push power back into the power supply. So any supply has to be capable of absorbing/accommodating this power. A battery should inherently be capable of absorbing energy - that's what charging it does :) - but just be aware that the characteristics of a good supply for class d are slightly different to conventional amps
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:thumb: Now we're gettin' somewhere.
Some quick notes from our very fast, and totally unscientific, listening of the Ncores versus the Samsons last night. There were 6 of us there, Maxcast, Jim, Roscoe, TomS (his amps), me, and Dave from Iowa who came for the show. JD3 and Mrs. JD3 did hear them, but with zilch for time on the Samsons before they left.
We had mixed reactions to the amps. We did try to play a few tunes and then switch amps and play the same tunes but the gains were different and memory faded during that switchover. The amps did get lukewarm as compared to my very cool Samsons which have been on constantly for a month now. Neither here nor there, just an observation.
The amps were dead quiet as advertised. I used my cables except for the SC's cuz Tom had the funky Cardas posts which needed spades and I use bananas. No clicking, no popping, only slight preamp buzz, even less than I get with the Samsons through the speakers.
Most everyone had something positive to say about the amps and felt they were very good in the midrange and perhaps meatier there. They have tons of bass so no issues there whatsoever. I felt there was a sheet over the mid to top end as compared to my Samsons but if you had just dropped these in and listened to them for an extended period I can see where folks would fall in love with them. Really a nice amplifier but I won't be selling my Samsons as a result. I would like to use them in a second system if I wanted the fun of building them over using tubes in a 2nd system. Those modules in there are really small. Way smaller than the photos indicate.
I'd say more folks liked them than didn't last night. Very promising and to me about 90% of what I am used to and perhaps some more of some good things in certain areas that only an extended time could tell me. They certainly would grow on you and you can do waaaayyyy worse than these over-performing little, and I mean little, devils. Tom snapped an iPhone shot of them lying on their backs on top of the Samsons. They had about 1/8 the footprint.
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Here are those grainy phone glamor shots Pete mentioned, on top of upside down NCores so the right angle AC plugs would fit, and complete with sandbags on them so the cables didn't lift them up to the sky. I'd say not so much Samson, but rather David and Goliath! No one could believe those little things were actually amps. I think Pete has some connectors bigger than them :lol:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61996)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61997)
Just a few thoughts:
- Thanks so much to Pete and Brenda for having us crazy's over late into the evening of an already long day at the show. This was really a lot of fun and they were all great people to spend time with. This is what the hobby is about for me, as well as others' perspectives and advice on how to make your system sound better.
- I've been to Pete's place a few times over the years, and while it always sounds good, last night his room, the TRL gear, and especially the SS8's sounded (and looked) fantastic! A must hear for sure.
- Pete (and others) gave honest thoughts of the comparison. No hiding behind keyboards here. It was refreshing and as it should be so we learn. Respectful but candid.
- This was VERY informal, as Pete said, maybe half a dozen tracks switched without level matching, a little different cabling, out of practical necessity, etc.
- The Ncores arrived Thursday morning and I assembled them Thursday afternoon while on conference calls. No voodoo parts or funny dust inside them. So, not much play time, but for them I don't think it matters. They sound good cold out of the box at my house and in Pete's system.
- For me, this actually said as much about how very, very good the Samsons are. I had not heard them before (I do own a Dude), but had been trying to find a pair to listen to and/or buy while I had the NCores on order. Any one who snags a pair is in for a treat.
- The amps are probably much more similar than different and both in a special league. Both have great clarity, transparency, and naturalness, and with the SS8's in that room, great bass, though different from each other which Pete knew right away as he knows his system inside and out. It was the first time I'd heard the NCores truly full range as my Abbeys start a natural roll off at 100hz. I'm not sure which I preferred but they were both excellent on their own.
- Ultimately, I think there were some preferences both ways, not absolute, but it was sort of splitting hairs on 2 really great sets of amps.
- Lastly, Jim and Pete shared some insight about these sort of "shootouts" (with speakers) and how little they really mean if you're not in the room and how things can go wrong (with amps, drivers, cables, etc), giving people the wrong impressions even to those who were there. Yet, the forum posters (there or not) still post away and infer things that didn't really happen. Just take it for what it is, nothing more.
This wasn't a shootout to me, rather friends having a good time listening to music and trying to learn something about their gear. Both the Samsons and Ncores can show it all to you for fairly reasonable money compared to some of the big boys that don't, and are also as quiet and reliable as can be.
Listen for yourself, in your own space, and enjoy.
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Now that is a much more reasonable review. None of the game changer attitude, none of the get rid of all anps and buy only Ncore attitude.
It is very hard to A-B two very good sounding amps. About the only way I have found to properly compare, live with an amp for a week or two, install the other amp in the system for at least a week, then go back to the first amp. Which amp do you miss the most in your system? But the audiophile down the street may prefer the opposite amp on his system.
But it is very easy with a great VS. mediocre amp.
Thanks WGH and TomS for the reviews. I just hope the other Ncore fanatics here don't burn you at the stake.
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Now that is a much more reasonable review. None of the game changer attitude, none of the get rid of all anps and buy only Ncore attitude.
It is very hard to A-B two very good sounding amps. About the only way I have found to properly compare, live with an amp for a week or two, install the other amp in the system for at least a week, then go back to the first amp. Which amp do you miss the most in your system? But the audiophile down the street may prefer the opposite amp on his system.
But it is very easy with a great VS. mediocre amp.
Thanks WGH and TomS for the reviews. I just hope the other Ncore fanatics here don't burn you at the stake.
True dat!
I was going to just use the second paragraph of your post as that is exactly my feeling. But the rest is true also IMO.
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TomS:
As the others have said, nice "Factual" report that makes me more interested in them.
Jim
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Just an observation, which others may have thought. The Ncore 400 is Bruno's DIY module and is being compared to very respected OEM products costing many times the DIY Ncore cost and garnering very favorable reviews against those OEMs. I for one would like to see how well these very respected OEMs fair against Bruno's OEM Ncore 1200. I Think the Ncore 400 is just a peak at what is to come. Just my 2cents.
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They may be great amps, but what I've learned over my life is that what appears to be to good usually is. I would almost feel better if there were some less than glowing reviews as a point of validation.
It is hard to phantom that this amp can satisfy all who have heard it. I really believe it takes more than a few days to get a real understanding of what it sounds like, first impressions are seldom that same as the last impressions.
At some point, a finished product will be reviewed by the professionals for TAS, Stereophile and the other usual suspects and maybe that will flesh out the facts from the myths.
This is not to say those who own them or are part of the tour and have wrote a review have not been valuable, they have.
This post is not meant to be negative, rather my perspective.
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Now that is a much more reasonable review. None of the game changer attitude, none of the get rid of all anps and buy only Ncore attitude.
It is very hard to A-B two very good sounding amps. About the only way I have found to properly compare, live with an amp for a week or two, install the other amp in the system for at least a week, then go back to the first amp. Which amp do you miss the most in your system? But the audiophile down the street may prefer the opposite amp on his system.
But it is very easy with a great VS. mediocre amp.
Thanks WGH and TomS for the reviews. I just hope the other Ncore fanatics here don't burn you at the stake.
+1
Thanks for posting a sensible response.
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Pete and TomS,
Thank you for taking the time to listen to the NCores and post balanced and thoughtful opinions. :thumb:
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They may be great amps, but what I've learned over my life is that what appears to be to good usually is. I would almost feel better if there were some less than glowing reviews as a point of validation...
well, from all the comments about them, the ncores do appear to be good; probably they really are. :lol:
as far as the "less than glowing" rewiews go, well if something really is that good, these less than glowing rewiews may be few and far between. while i am not in the market for amps, and rarely if ever buy new, if i were, these ncores would be at the top of my list.
not sure why it would make you feel better if there were less than glowing rewiews, but you can look at brm's post above, as a "less than glowing rewiew"; do you feel better now? :green:
"...Really a nice amplifier but I won't be selling my Samsons as a result..."
and:
"...Very promising and to me about 90% of what I am used to and perhaps some more of some good things in certain areas that only an extended time could tell me..."
brm was the first person i have read about that felt the ncores were not at least as transparent as anything they were compared to: "...I felt there was a sheet over the mid to top end as compared to my Samsons..." that is saying something. of course, brm admits that a lot of time is needed to really be able to do a proper ewaluation. but, what i take from this, especially when taken in context w/what others have said, is that the ncores, at 30%-40% the cost of the samsons, play on the same level, at the wery least.
if i already owned the samsons, and bought them new, and went so far as to have $8k speakers made in a custom finish, color matched to the amps, i, too, would be reluctant to be wanting to take a financial hit and sell my samsons, to replace them w/relatively cheap-in-comparison little boxes. the ncores would truly have to be a major step above what i already had, for me to want to do that - if it were a matter of it possibly being a hair better, i wouldn't even want to know if they were! :lol:
sure, mebbe i would come out a few dollars ahead, even after taking a hit selling my samsons, as i would be replacing them w/something much cheaper. but, why bother, when the system is so perfectly matched - sonically and visually - unless the improvements truly put the sound in a different league? (of course for some, even if an improvement is a tiny fraction, it is worth making a switch.) but, w/no skin in the game, as i don't own the samsons, if i were in the market for a high power amp, it is a no-brainer to buy the ncores. even if i could find used samsons at 50% of retail, the ncores will still be ~$1k cheaper brand-new. and the samsons are simply one of many more expensive amps that the ncores are comparable to, if not outright better. and, i really do like the idea that the ncore amps are so efficient; it really appeals to my ideas regarding energy efficiency and the enwironment. for me, if i have to split hairs to decide whether or not i want on amp or another, the efficiency of the ncores tips the scales heavily in their favor.
i was more impressed w/tomS' take on the amps - he had nothing negative to say about anything, only that both amps are great, w/perhaps some differences between them:
"...Ultimately, I think there were some preferences both ways, not absolute, but it was sort of splitting hairs on 2 really great sets of amps...."
and i am interested in getting george's (zybar's) feedback after he takes delivery of his ncores and has had them in his system for a month or three - his take seemed to mirror what tomS was saying about the ncores. and someday i will own a pair of these, or maybe even two. but, i will buy them 2nd hand, and whether or not they replace whatever i am using at the time will be determined after a lengthy audition. i, too, may then consider recouping some costs by selling some amps presently in my inventory. :lol:
and, as has been stated by others, i wanna thank pete for opening up his home, and tomS for bringing over some ncores, so everyone can wicariously enjoy them! :thumb:
ymmv,
doug s.
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Thanks Tom and Pete from writing enough that I can just briefly hand out my +1s. Evaluating amps that are both such high quality in such a short amount of time is tricky, especially since I had no prior experience with either or the SS8s.
So add my +1 to everything TomS said in the quotes below:
- The amps are probably much more similar than different and both in a special league. Both have great clarity, transparency, and naturalness, and with the SS8's in that room, great bass
- Ultimately, I think there were some preferences both ways, not absolute, but it was sort of splitting hairs on 2 really great sets of amps.
In my listening, I tend to gravitate towards the bass so I didn't pick up on the treble differences Pete mentioned. Pete also had the advantage of listening to a system he was very familiar with and on at least some tracks he knew very well.
What was also pointed out last night at points was that the ncores seemed to have a bit more bass than the Samsons. As Pete (IIRC) said "for better, for worse" (and maybe this little tilt towards bass contributing to what Pete was hearing in the treble?).
I came away from the excellent comparison (and food and company) thinking that I'd need to live with both for a while to come to any solid preferences and conclusions. Close enough in performance that a lengthy comparison felt called for. With familiar equipment and familiar recordings.
Both amps (and Pete's entire system) were fabulous. What a treat to hear them.
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Thanks for taking the time to write it up for us, guys.
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I guess we can't edit here......did you mention the preamp you used?
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Pete and I both own the Tube Research Labs Dude.
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Pete and I both own the Tube Research Labs Dude.
Thanks for the quick reply!
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I think the comment about the better bass performance of the NCOREs potentially biasing the HF perception is spot on. When I did my A/B of the NCOREs versus my Class A amps I observed a similar phenomenon.
But just a hypothesis on my part, mind you. Pete knows his system very very well and knew most of the tracks played much better than I did.
My only solid conclusion was that if I was choosing between the two, I'd need to live with them both for a while in order to decide (also let it be noted that I am more of a bass man than a treble guy).
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Actually, I'd say it was the quantity, from what I can recollect. But again, this wasn't a system or recordings I am familiar with. Maybe BRM who knows the system and recordings much more intimately can chime in on this.
Based on the amount of time I spent and my unfamiliarity with so much of the music and equipment, I only feel comfortable reporting my impressions in the broadest strokes. I am on the ncore tour and can present more detailed findings once my turn comes.
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Any chance that anyone out there 1) lives in the Pacific NW, not too far from Portland, OR and 2) would be willing to have a stranger or two visit to hear the amps? I've ordered a pair of NC 400s with power supplies and would love to come to see and hear them, along with my friend Kara Chafee of DeHavilland HiFi. If so, please send me a PM; harryzweben@yahoo.com.
Thanks!
Harry Z
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BTW for those interested in getting the modules a guy at Diyaudio has designer and is offering a mono chassis for sale. Precut fromt and back channel link aslo has digi key part numbers for IEC receptical vinding post and so on.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/205757-hypex-ncore-chassis-coz.html#post3008379
http://www.cozcables.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=12944785
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I can't wait for the $200 Chinese clones that will surely be out in a couple of months.
Great review, thanks again.
Yes, you have reminded us what Nelson Pass himself has dealt with for years.
I certainly hope there aren't any Chinese clones and with the complex level of discrete and SMD parts on the Ncore 400, it will be a difficult copy. There will be those that unload their Ncore 400 and move on to something else, just like any other item in high end audio for those who can't afford the Ncore as it is priced today.
Jan & Bruno have worked hard to bring this level of performance just as any other manufacturer has with their own product. IMHO they have priced the product fairly commensurate to performance levels that are seen in other commercial products several times the price of the Ncore. Violation of intellectual property is an all too common occurrence and one should not support that at all.
IMHO,
Best,
Anand.
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I can't wait for the $200 Chinese clones that will surely be out in a couple of months.
Bruno is not a dummie-I believe the modulator is potted which may make a clone, well, extremely difficult....
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Aren't these amps made in Asia? I seem to recall reading that design and final QC are done in EU but amps are made in Europe and Asia. If they are made in china, don't be surprised if a really similar design doesn't pop up soon. China has no regard for intellectual property. Knockoffs are a government sponsored strategy. The rest of the world needs to wake up and do something about it.
If they do pop up for cheap, I would never own or recommend a bootleg version. This new amp looks pretty cool. I'm following this thread with great interest
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Sorry for the split guys. I really want to try to keep the Listening Thread for reviews so it's easy to read through.
:thumb:
As for the question where the modules are made. :dunno: Maybe someone that knows can chime in. I do know as jackman pointed out that the QC is done at Hypex as when I was asking when my order would ship the response was it's on the QC bench now. Now those amps are getting QC'd around the USA. :lol:
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I think the split and maintaining the review thread for listening impressions, and reaction to those impressions, is a good move. We do have a tendency to wander and keeping the thread pristine does make it easier to get through. Additionally, we needed a thread on technical as well. Now if Jason could kick in a bit on the technical side, since he built them an all, that would be even better. :wink:
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Now if Jason could kick in a bit on the technical side, since he built them an all, that would be even better. :wink:
:rotflmao:
I did what anyone would do. Unpack, read a few pages, solder a few connections, plug them in and cross my fingers when I power them on. Oh, and they worked the first time. :thumb:
Double checking the DC offset isn't a bad idea either. :wink: This is diy ya know.
From Hypex:
You can try adjusting the DC offset of the modules if you have a multimeter. The procedure is as follows. Power up the module. Leave both input and output unconnected. First, adjust R95 to 0 mV while measuring between non-inverted input and ground and Nampon disconnected. Then, with nothing attached to input but with the amp enabled (Nampon connected), adjust R136 close to 0 mV while measuring on the output.
Here are some pics of R95 & R136
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64033)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64034)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64035)
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Couple questions...
1. Would using 220V be better than 120V? In what ways?
2. I understand that the red LEDs are part of the input regulation, why LEDs?
Thanks for any advice!
Oh, I have one built and the second soon.
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$200 copies?
I think it's more to do with accurately implementing a 5th order control loop
For example, Has anyone seen some Chinese copies of the B&O ice modules?
Couple questions...
1. Would using 220V be better than 120V? In what ways?
no
2. I understand that the red LEDs are part of the input regulation, why LEDs?
Thanks for any advice!
Oh, I have one built and the second soon.
leds behave like Zener diodes and the right ones are lower noise and more stable than zeners
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How do you know what week your order might be shipped? I've seen the listing of the weeks by number that have been posted, but does Hypex provide any posted information about which order numbers will be shipped on what week? Or do you just have to email them and ask when your specific order will likely be filled?
I ordered a couple days ago, but all I got was an order number, and not a shipping date estimate. I was kind of expecting one. Did I miss it somewhere?
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How do you know what week your order might be shipped? I've seen the listing of the weeks by number that have been posted, but does Hypex provide any posted information about which order numbers will be shipped on what week? Or do you just have to email them and ask when your specific order will likely be filled?
I ordered a couple days ago, but all I got was an order number, and not a shipping date estimate. I was kind of expecting one. Did I miss it somewhere?
I'm sure you're week 21 but certainly you can email Niels and he will let you know. He's very responsive but remember he's also been in Munich for the last week and probably playing catchup.
Niels Burema | Production manager / Logistics
mailto:logistics@hypex.nl
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Here's a good question for Ncore owners, i just read on diy that a guy has decided to sell his Ncore because he choose's not to replace his music library.
The Ncore has such good resolution that it makes his music recordings sound like crap and he refuses to upgrade his library. Im sure many of us have this problem already but might be enhanced even futher with Ncore in the mix.
I have certainly found that even HD tracks can be hit or miss, so what have you guys found pertaining to listenability of your current library?? Reduced even futher??
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Here's a good question for Ncore owners, i just read on diy that a guy has decided to sell his Ncore because he choose's not to replace his music library.
The Ncore has such good resolution that it makes his music recordings sound like crap and he refuses to upgrade his library. Im sure many of us have this problem already but might be enhanced even futher with Ncore in the mix.
I have certainly found that even HD tracks can be hit or miss, so what have you guys found pertaining to listenability of your current library?? Reduced even futher??
He needs a good tone control to correct the poor recordings.
I would rather have a crappy system than give up music that I like..
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Here's a good question for Ncore owners, i just read on diy that a guy has decided to sell his Ncore because he choose's not to replace his music library.
The Ncore has such good resolution that it makes his music recordings sound like crap and he refuses to upgrade his library. Im sure many of us have this problem already but might be enhanced even futher with Ncore in the mix.
I have certainly found that even HD tracks can be hit or miss, so what have you guys found pertaining to listenability of your current library?? Reduced even futher??
In my brief exposure to the N-Core amplifier I found it very neutral. I would think this characteristic would allow for system alteration at other points with a more predictable out-come. I'd keep the N-Core and go for a more romantic pre-amp, tube buffer, or set of cables, between the pre and N-Core. When I had it in my system I found it less romantic than my Audio Alchemy OM150. I figured if I were to go down the N-Core path, that I could/would add a tube buffer of some sort to get that romantic bloom back. YMMV...
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In my brief exposure to the N-Core amplifier I found it very neutral. I would think this characteristic would allow for system alteration at other points with a more predictable out-come. I'd keep the N-Core and go for a more romantic pre-amp, tube buffer, or set of cables, between the pre and N-Core. When I had it in my system I found it less romantic than my Audio Alchemy OM150. I figured if I were to go down the N-Core path, that I could/would add a tube buffer of some sort to get that romantic bloom back. YMMV...
Exactly what I found too. Yours is a good strategy to just ignore this piece when tuning to taste around it. They would probably be a reviewer's dream as a constant.
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Here's a good question for Ncore owners, i just read on diy that a guy has decided to sell his Ncore because he choose's not to replace his music library.
The Ncore has such good resolution that it makes his music recordings sound like crap and he refuses to upgrade his library. Im sure many of us have this problem already but might be enhanced even futher with Ncore in the mix.
I have certainly found that even HD tracks can be hit or miss, so what have you guys found pertaining to listenability of your current library?? Reduced even futher??
What the Ncore amps do is present what is on the recording and what is in your system (at least that is my impression over a few day audition).
If I played a recording that was shrill, lacked depth, and was heavily compressed, that's what it sounded like. If it was a great sounding recording it sounded great.
They definitely will not make bad recordings good. That being said, I didn't run across any recordings that I could listen to with my reference system unlistenable with the Ncores.
I leave the crappy recordings in my collection for the car or Ipod. :wink:
George
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I couldn't agree more.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Heavenly in, heavenly out.
As it was mentioned above that the NCores would be fantastic for product development or reviewer that wants neutral. They really get out of the way and give it to you.
:thumb:
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After all the time and care that went into designing these to be as pure an amplifier as possible, it seems sacrilegious to even think about polluting the playback chain with anything that is going to modify the sound. Kind of defeats the purpose and makes one wonder why someone would even want something as high fidelity as the ncore if they need to "adjust" the sound....
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Agree with cab. You guys haven't even been served and you're already reaching for the salt.
If want tube haze, why buy a pristine solid state amp?
There is nothing wrong with wanting tube sound but it does seem counter-productive to superimpose it on NCore.
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Eh, I could see having something that could easily be swapped in and out (tube buffer?) for times that I didn't want the brutal honesty of a poor recording.
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Agree with cab. You guys haven't even been served and you're already reaching for the salt.
If want tube haze, why buy a pristine solid state amp?
There is nothing wrong with wanting tube sound but it does seem counter-productive to superimpose it on NCore.
When do we stop equating tubes to haze and warmish sound, and colorations? This is what tubes gear used to sound like years ago.
My tube amps don't sound anything like that and neither does my tube preamp.
In fact, many of us have thought that a tube preamp was a good partner with the Ncore amps!!
George
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I have a tube dac in my system and when I pulled my amps and installed the NCores, the sound was pristine. No haze, clearer than I have ever heard my music. :D And I've had a number of SS dacs including a Metrum Octave.
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My reply was in response to the comments above about adding "romantic bloom"....I said nothing about tubes, per se, but rather any "tone" augmentation....
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When do we stop equating tubes to haze and warmish sound, and colorations? This is what tubes gear used to sound like years ago.
My tube amps don't sound anything like that and neither does my tube preamp.
In fact, many of us have thought that a tube preamp was a good partner with the Ncore amps!!
George
George is 100% right. OTL's do not produce any haze or coloration. It is caused by the output transformers of transformer driven tube amps.
The McIntosh SS amps with output transformers have the same character.
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I love tube sound ... a lot of tube amps exhibit high distortion when pushed hard ... now that does not mean they can't be linear, sound more real, are implemented in better ways ...
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Well I'm not a flat-earther, I don't believe/feel that just because a system measures well, it sounds good. More than anything, I want my system to sound good, to me. I really do like the neutrality of the NCore amplifiers, not because I want a totally neutral system, but because I could more easily tune my system around it. Many times I've heard a discussion something along the lines of, "well amp XYZ is a bit strident, but the mellowness of speakers ABC work well with it." We all have different hearing, and different preferences for what we want to hear in our systems. I think that these NCore amplifiers are so neutral that they can remove a variable and make system tuning easier, by not having to compensate for their "Sound Signature" with an excessive amount of something opposite from another component. YMMV...
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Here is a very interesting comment from the DIY Audio site by Jan Didden, a well known designer:
"Just went to an AES presentation yesterday by Bruno on the ncore technology. I thought I knew a thing or two about analog design, but suffice it to say that I learned another couple of tricks.
When reviewing the measurements on the 1200 I can confirm the fantastic specs like the mentioned 0.003% at all powers and all frequencies. Can you believe an output impedance of around 1milliohms, and that from DC to above 20kHz??
What jumps out immediately is that this amp doesn't have the rise in THD, rise in Zout and fall in PSRR that a 'regular' amp would show above a few kHz at best. In this amp, all these specs are flat to above 20kHz, which is a result from having an open loop gain that also extends above 20kHz.
There are more paradigm shifts: the 5kHz THD is LOWER than the 1kHz THD, for instance. Which is great as it does lower the higher harmonics even further.
Bruno confidently maintains that this kind of performance is not offered by ANY amp on the market today, not even class A.
But, the proof is in the eating of course so the 2nd part of the presentation was a listening test with Bruno's LS1 active speakers driven by ncore modules. Not a scientifically controlled listening test, but most of those present make their living by listening and judging music and they were impressed, as was I. Some people said they recognised the acoustics of the studio where some of the tracks were produced..."
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...At some point, a finished product will be reviewed by the professionals for TAS, Stereophile and the other usual suspects and maybe that will flesh out the facts from the myths...
Don't hold your breath. For obvious reasons the two glossy magazines don't "review" DIY, and NC400 is DIY only. They can't collect $6k/issue for the inside cover ad selling a $10k power amp found to be no better than $1500 DIY. That's called: the end of the magazine.
Stereophile's Art Dudley rebuilding/refurbishing a 40 year old classic or installing an aftermarket upgrade to Linn's 40 year old TT is a completely different bag of worms.
Hypex do not encourage nor prohibit OEM NC400, meaning OEM can buy NC400 all day. They wait in line like I did and they pay what I did. No volume discount. Hypex sell OEM the NC1200 amp.
OEM are not in the business of paying retail and waiting in line, again, for obvious reason.
I'd not be surprised if by now, both major US glossies blocked "Ncore" from their servers.
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I'd not be surprised if by now, both major US glossies blocked "Ncore" from their servers.
Did you happen to notice John Atkinson acknowledge correspondence with Bruno in the DIYAudio thread? People beat up Stereophile, but I like Atkinson's style.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-78.html#post3012928
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Hypex do not encourage nor prohibit OEM NC400, meaning OEM can buy NC400 all day. They wait in line like I did and they pay what I did. No volume discount. Hypex sell OEM the NC1200 amp.
James
We had a meeting with Jan-Peter at the Munich Show and I asked if we (Acousticimagery) could develop a NC400 based product and his answer was a flat NO!....." OEM sales are not solicited."
As I've posted before elsewhere in the AC, Hypex are not so naive as to allow a 'maverick' OEM to buy quantities of NC400 even one at a time for retail 'in line' with the DIYers! His main concern is the inevitable mark up which would have to be applied would take the NC400 into a price territory where JP doesn't want it to be.
We settled for NC1200 and join the market alongside Mola-Mola and Theta.
Cheers
John
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Did you happen to notice John Atkinson acknowledge correspondence with Bruno in the DIYAudio thread? People beat up Stereophile, but I like Atkinson's style.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-78.html#post3012928
Here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-388.html#post3012928 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-388.html#post3012928) Bruno wrote: ...Regardless of market, the mark-up between the BOM and the end-user price is around a factor 5. Most of that goes to the retailer. Then the distributor. The remaining pittance goes to the manufacturer...
Previously we had big USA/Canada distributor for our primeVibe guitar/violin seasoning device. At that time street price was $99. The Distributor/Dealer margin was about 8x our own. It's not fun doing accounts receivable with such ratios so we dropped wholesale accounts, lowered the price, and sell direct only now. It was interesting watching Zu Speakers go back and forth with their distribution channels, direct, dealers, direct, I don't know what they're doing now.
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I saw this on diyaudio and thought I'd relay the message.
Guys,
Currently all NC400 and SMPS600 are on stock, however we have had some unforeseen delay due to missing SMPS and audio cables....
The cables are now in transit and will arrive next week on Monday.
All open orders (and new orders...) will be shipped next week, starting on Tuesday.
My appologize for this unforeseen delay.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-403.html#post3026420
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Wow thats big news, finally caught up. Now the pressure is even greater, must wait for audition. :o
Thanks Jason....
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Now the pressure is even greater, must wait for audition. :o
It's coming....soon, but not soon enough, I know.
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I'll be among the first to hear the world's best arch top guitars, bass guitars, and double bass through a world class MI preamp, then Ncore, then our own Duke LeJeune's AudioKinesis Thunderchild...hoping Duke can loan us a new 15" TC with improved compression tweeter in fiberglass enclosure...yippee!
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Thinking of building a dual mono Ncore amp; in other words 2 boards and 2 PS
in one chassis.
What are the smallest internal dimensions you guys would recommend in order to make a build that wouldn't suffer from excessive heat build up, interference, etc.?
Thanks
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Thinking of building a dual mono Ncore amp; in other words 2 boards and 2 PS
in one chassis.
What are the smallest internal dimensions you guys would recommend in order to make a build that wouldn't suffer from excessive heat build up, interference, etc.?
Thanks
H x W x D: 60 x 400 x 200mm is my best guess, but I think you're not likely to find those chassis dimensions. Member HT CoZ plans a dual mono chassis right now. I'd look into it.
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Damn, they're in stock and ready to ship.. Well, shoot, I guess they're not going anywhere. Preorder discount on my preamp has priority. At least I'll have my chassis' ready.
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Don't hold your breath. For obvious reasons the two glossy magazines don't "review" DIY, and NC400 is DIY only. They can't collect $6k/issue for the inside cover ad selling a $10k power amp found to be no better than $1500 DIY. That's called: the end of the magazine.
Stereophile's Art Dudley rebuilding/refurbishing a 40 year old classic or installing an aftermarket upgrade to Linn's 40 year old TT is a completely different bag of worms.
Hypex do not encourage nor prohibit OEM NC400, meaning OEM can buy NC400 all day. They wait in line like I did and they pay what I did. No volume discount. Hypex sell OEM the NC1200 amp.
OEM are not in the business of paying retail and waiting in line, again, for obvious reason.
I'd not be surprised if by now, both major US glossies blocked "Ncore" from their servers.
AMEN Brother! at least someone gets it!! Class D amps will get better once the prices go up on them!
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AMEN Brother! at least someone gets it!! Class D amps will get better once the prices go up on them!
Really? There are already a number of Class-D amps out there costing thousands of dollars, how much more expensive do they have to get? Heck the Mola-Mola has already been announced at $12k. You just sound ill-informed with that statement
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Well yeah thats why they are starting to get some better reviews. Not that class D hasn't come a long way. But don't think for a minute it doesn't threaten the establishment! Were talking about a 2k amp thats sounds really, really, good.
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There are plenty of High Priced Digital amps out there.
There are 2 pairs of $50,000 Mark Levinson #53's on A'gon for the mid to upper $20K's.
The Theta Dreadnaughts are $12K/pair based on the NC1200 modules.
Rowland 501's are $14K/pair based on the ICEPower ASP1000 modules.
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I've added some pictures in Post #5 for checking / setting DC offset.
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Thanks!
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Thanks!
You're welcome! :thumb:
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As for the question where the modules are made. :dunno: Maybe someone that knows can chime in.
Slovakia. Some of the OEM stuff is done in a European run factory in China.
Nothing stops determined pirates. Certainly no potting compound. Actually the best copy protection we have is precisely the fact that the circuit is all-discrete. Get one trace wrong: trouble. Get one part wrong: also no worky good, if at all. A customer told us he found some Chinese trying to knock off the UcD700OEM design and admitting they couldn't get their copy to work.
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Slovakia. Some of the OEM stuff is done in a European run factory in China.
Nothing stops determined pirates. Certainly no potting compound. Actually the best copy protection we have is precisely the fact that the circuit is all-discrete. Get one trace wrong: trouble. Get one part wrong: also no worky good, if at all. A customer told us he found some Chinese trying to knock off the UcD700OEM design and admitting they couldn't get their copy to work.
Thanks! :thumb:
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Hello Team
Please can someone advise the expected wait delivery time for NC400, how long was it from order to your delivery?
I ordered 2 NC400 and 2 SMPS 600 looking forward to them arriving :D
kindest regards
John
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I meant the post I created.
my NC400's have been sent by Hypex now
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Hello,
I finally built my Ncores with HtCoz's dual mono chassis. My experience, however mirrors this person's post on DIYAudio with link: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-461.html
/begin quote:
Having an issue with a pair of Ncore modules I am building for a friend.
There's no bass. It's almost as if there's a 6dB high pass filter above 100hz. The gain on the amp is also fairly low. With high sensitivity speakers I have to turn the volume fairly high to get it to a normal listening levels.
A few notes:
1. I designed linear power supplies for the modules.
2. The issue happens with both SMPS and Linear PS. The distortion on the top end is worse with the SMPS, but the bass reproduction faces the same issue.
3. The unit is wired for balanced operation, but I am using an RCA to XLR cable wired per the datasheet.
4. The speakers I'm using have a very high QTS of .95 and are full-range crossoverless (I think I read some comments somewhere about this).
5. The amplifier plays 'music' and LEDs light up as they should.
6. The issue is the same in both channels.
7. No crackles, pops, clicks, hums, or noise
/end quote
Except for the following - I have the default SMPS 600 power supplies and have the Gedlee Abbey 12A speakers. I heard Jason's Ncores through the tour and mine sound nowhere near it. Mine is bright and the output is low. The amp works as it should with all the lights on and no hum or hiss. Any help is appreciated. :cry:
Thanks,
Christian
PS - I'm also using the same preamp I used during the tour - the superphon passive pre.
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I had a strange thing going last week. When I first turned on the system, the volume was a lot lower at normal preamp settings for the first minute or two, then suddenly it went back to normal. As I had cranked the volume control to compensate, I had to rush to turn the now very loud system back to normal volume setting. It did it consistently over the course of two days, both channels the same each time. I have full monoblocks that were plugged directly into the wall, with the rest of the system into a battery backup power conditioner.
the last time it happened, I noticed the power conditioner activated in some way. It was really weird, because the amps didn't drop out completely and power to the circuit was clearly still there. Well, I suspected the conditioner might be malfuctioning and just plugged everything into a power strip instead. I have had no issues since that time, but with only a couple listening sessions since then. I'm away from home on a business trip right now.
This latest post now has me wondering whether it was, in fact, the power conditioner... I haven't had a chance to fully test or see if the phenomenon repeats itself with the power conditioner now out of the picture.
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Snip...
I heard Jason's Ncores through the tour and mine sound nowhere near it. Mine is bright and the output is low. The amp works as it should with all the lights on and no hum or hiss. Any help is appreciated. :cry:
Thanks,
Christian
PS - I'm also using the same preamp I used during the tour - the superphon passive pre.
I'd contact Hypex and see what they have to say. It may be something they're familiar with. Hopefully an easy fix...
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Hey Barry_NJ,
I did. I really hope it's an easy fix. Thank you.
- Christian
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Hey Barry_NJ,
I did. I really hope it's an easy fix. Thank you.
- Christian
Do you have the red wire on the input harness to pin #2 on the XLR?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64972)
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one more thing while I think of it.
Make sure all connections on the NC400 are seated. It's pretty easy to plug them in but they're not seated all the way.
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Hi Jason,
Yes, I have the red wire on pin #2. Thank you.
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I checked the connections again and they're pretty snug. The connections are also twisted with tie wraps, except for the speaker wires because it doesn't need to be. I remember when I had your amp, Jason, the superphon preamp would be at about 9 or 10 o'clock position and it would be pretty loud on the Abbeys. Now I have it at 1 o'clock and it's only the highs that are loud. And I have to tone the sub (I have 3, but currently have 1 connected) because it's too loud.
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You do have 1 & 3 connected right?
Is phase correct? + speaker terminal is the one closest to the outside of the NC400. See my picture above.
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rave959,
Is there any possibility the speaker binding posts are touching the metal of the chassis and creating a partial short? This would cause problems like you are having.
Some close up photos of the input and other wiring might help us. Hard to imagine both amps having the same defect.
mike
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rave959,
Is there any possibility the speaker binding posts are touching the metal of the chassis and creating a partial short? This would cause problems like you are having.
Some close up photos of the input and other wiring might help us. Hard to imagine both amps having the same defect.
mike
Hi Mike,
Here are some photos:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64974)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64975)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64976)
The case is anodized. Also, the WBT-like binding posts have some sort of "inner sleeve" tube to prevent contact.
Thank you,
- Christian
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This probably won't make much of a difference but...make sure on the right side of your enclosure that you redress your output wiring so it doesn't float right over the output inductor. I take it that you have checked and rechecked that continuity is excellent between the designated areas that need to have continuity! I would double check for shorts even with an anodized case as Mike suggests.
The audio input is differential. This means that ground is not part of the audio signal. When
connecting an unbalanced source, treat pins 1 and 2 as a floating input with pin 2 being the “audio
ground” of the source. Pin 4 may be used to attach the shield of a shielded twisted pair cable, but the
“audio ground” connection of an unbalanced source should never connect here.
On J9, make sure you are carefully following the Pin number designations (as stated in Figure 11.2) and how they connect to the XLR pins. Figure 2 on page 12 can be a bit confusing.
Remember Pin 1 on J9 is the non-inverting audio input (+) which connects with Pin 2 on the XLR; Pin 2 on J9 is the inverting audio input (-) which connects with Pin 3 on the XLR and Pin 4 on J9 connects to your chassis.
Anand.
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Picture is not sufficiently clear for me to see the XLR connectors: which cable is connected to pin 1? It should be the shield cable (and not the inverted signal of the clear cable). A just mentioned in the previous mail figure 2 on page 12 is somewhat ambiguous.
When I prepared my connectors waiting for the ncore and needed quite some time to find a coherent explanation for the J9 to XLR connections in a fully balanced mode without special switch-on button:
Documentation says: (colors of cables are those mentionned on dyaudio, but I would not like to rely on cable color solely)
Connector J9 -------------------------------------- xlr connector
Pin1: audio signal (red) ----------------------------> Pin 2
Pin2: inverted signal (clear) ------------------------> Pin 3
Pin3: nAmpon (black) ------------------------------>| Pin 1
Pin4: shield/signal ground (yellow) -----------------> | Pin 1
Unfortunately the placement/numbering of pins on J9 (Section 11.2) is ambiguous on figure 2. Example, pin 1 on J9 (bottom right when looking front) should be connected to audio signal, but when I looked first at figure 2, for me bottom/right is the one in which the blue wire is connected, which is inverted audio as it goes to xlr-pin3.
I think the reason of my misunderstanding is that I interprete the connector as being visually bended (2 and 1 near to the border and 4 and 3 on top being pushed to the right to see them as on a Picasso painting), so I read
2 4
1 3
whereas Bruno sees it probably as on the map for pin connectors (while the plate below is turned differently) so he reads
4 3
2 1
this seem to be coherent with the connections on Figure 2.
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jmbulg,
Precisely my point.
Anand.
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rave959,
Is there any possibility the speaker binding posts are touching the metal of the chassis and creating a partial short? This would cause problems like you are having.
Every time I look in the NCore forum, I find myself surprised that so many of you guys are using second-rate speaker jacks on these bleeding-edge amps. Why do binding posts even still exist, when the Speakon is so abjectly superior in every material way? (Well, to some being cheaper is a negative rather than a positive, I suppose.)
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Hello guys, sorry for the delay... jason offered help and I will take him up on it. Mike, Anand, jmbulg, et al - thank you so much for your help!
- Christian
PS - just to answer questions, I have since connected pin 1 to the chassis as well after this picture was taken.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65009)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65014)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65011)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65015)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65016)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65017)
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As far as I can see xlr are connected correctly.
Did you try with only using a single amp at one time and/or a mono signal to check if the phases are correct (you could also just invert the loudspeaker connection on one channel to make sure) ?
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Christian,
What is that adapter or extender on the XLR? Looks like a phase reverse adapter to me, but that would be too obvious.
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Christian,
What is that adapter or extender on the XLR? Looks like a phase reverse adapter to me, but that would be too obvious.
I'm sending him a pair of cables to try that I just tested in my system....
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Maybe I am wrong but I thought Bruno said the speaker wire connections on the amp module must be from the same side of each screw post. From the photos above it looks like they are not connected per the prescribed instructions. Below is a copy of Jason's and in the photo you can see that the amp on the right has the wires from the same side of both screws. If I am correct, then maybe that could be causing the problem.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/vendors-bazaar/291489d1342227908-hypex-ncore-closeup.jpg
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Yes, he has corrected all those issues after this posting. I think he has a cable issue. I've already sent him some RCA > XLR cables to try. If not, the amp will be shipped to me and I'll get him sorted. At least I can try the amp in my system and rule it out or fix it.
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Wow Jason, yu da man!
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Wow Jason, yu da man!
Nope. Just trying to help someone.
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Yep - he is da man! :D
Christian
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Documentation says: (colors of cables are those mentionned on dyaudio, but I would not like to rely on cable color solely)
Connector J9 -------------------------------------- xlr connector
Pin1: audio signal (red) ----------------------------> Pin 2
Pin2: inverted signal (clear) ------------------------> Pin 3
Pin3: nAmpon (black) ------------------------------>| Pin 1
Pin4: shield/signal ground (yellow) -----------------> | Pin 1
Unfortunately the placement/numbering of pins on J9 (Section 11.2) is ambiguous on figure 2. Example, pin 1 on J9 (bottom right when looking front) should be connected to audio signal, but when I looked first at figure 2, for me bottom/right is the one in which the blue wire is connected, which is inverted audio as it goes to xlr-pin3.
I think the reason of my misunderstanding is that I interprete the connector as being visually bended (2 and 1 near to the border and 4 and 3 on top being pushed to the right to see them as on a Picasso painting), so I read
2 4
1 3
whereas Bruno sees it probably as on the map for pin connectors (while the plate below is turned differently) so he reads
4 3
2 1
this seem to be coherent with the connections on Figure 2.
So now I am confused whereas before I thought the placement/numbering of the Pins on J9 was clear from the picture in figure 2 in section 11.2 of the Hypex data sheet, which to me shows a clear indication that the numbering is:
4 3
2 1
as you look at J9 from the direction the cable is plugged into the connector on the module. However, there is no RED wire on my J9 connector. My wires line up like this:
4-Yellow(shield) 3-Black (nampon)
2-White 1-Blue
This appears to make my Blue wire connected to Pin 1 on J9 which is supposed to be the audio signal and should be RED? Per above, the Blue wire is inverted audio and should go to Pin 3 on the XLR but instead mine goes to Pin 2 on the XLR?
A picture of my J9 connection wire is attached. As you can see, from the top of the pic. there is a white wire, a blue wire, the braided shield wire and the black nampon. Where is the RED audio wire? Any clarification is appreciated.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65223)
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A picture of my J9 connection wire is attached. As you can see, from the top of the pic. there is a white wire, a blue wire, the braided shield wire and the black nampon. Where is the RED audio wire? Any clarification is appreciated.
It just looks as though the wire colors have changed. Not a problem at all.
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Thanks for the quick response Jason. That's what I assumed, but I got a little confused by the discussion quoted above. Am I correct that the configuration of the pins on J9 and their XLR connections is as follows (looking at the Ncore module from the orientation of where J9 is connected and using the new color wires):
J9 Pin 4-Yellow (Shield)-Connects to XLR Pin 1 J9 Pin 3-Black (nampon)- Connects to Chassis/ground
J9 Pin 2-White(inverted audio)-Connects to XLR Pin 3 J9 Pin 1-Blue(Audio signal)-Connects to XLR Pin 2
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It's hard for me to say if that's correct as I don't know where those colored wires are located in the molex connector.
It's best for you to just ohm check each pin / wire and then you will have it.
Posting it for all the new people would be nice too. :thumb:
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Thanks for the quick response Jason. That's what I assumed, but I got a little confused by the discussion quoted above. Am I correct that the configuration of the pins on J9 and their XLR connections is as follows (looking at the Ncore module from the orientation of where J9 is connected and using the new color wires):
J9 Pin 4-Yellow (Shield)-Connects to XLR Pin 1 J9 Pin 3-Black (nampon)- Connects to Chassis/ground
J9 Pin 2-White(inverted audio)-Connects to XLR Pin 3 J9 Pin 1-Blue(Audio signal)-Connects to XLR Pin 2
Pin connections seem ok. As for the colours, obviously they changed and expecting something like this, it is why I said not to rely on the color.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65223)
Airborn,
It appears that the balanced input cabling provided with your Ncores is different from the Mogami w2791 provided with Jason's and my supplied harness's. Would you please post what is printed on your signal cabling?
TIA,
Paul
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Pin connections seem ok. As for the colours, obviously they changed and expecting something like this, it is why I said not to rely on the color.
Yep, I agree, not blaming you at all for my confusion jmbulg. I was just surprised Hypex changed the signal wire from red to blue when blue used to be (and usually is) the negative. That sure made things confusing for me. :scratch:
It appears that the balanced input cabling provided with your Ncores is different from the Mogami w2791 provided with Jason's and my supplied harness's. Would you please post what is printed on your signal cabling?
Paul,
I am at work right now so I can't check the type of signal cable provided with my modules until tonight. I will also do the ohm check and hopefully wire up at least one monoblock tonight and post the rests. Thanks for the help.
Steve
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Ok got one monoblock working but didn't have time to put the other together. The balanced signal cable is indeed not the Mogami cable earlier purchasers received. This cable is stamped on the jacket "hypex electronics QuietConduit low-noise balanced audio cable." So it appears hypex is now making the balanced signal cables itself. I don't know if this is because of supply issues with the Mogami cable or why they switched. In any case the connectors are as described above, i.e., J9 pin 4 is the yellow shield wire and goes to xlr pin 1, J9 pin 3 is the black nampon wire and goes to chassis/ground, J9 pin 2 is the white inverted audio wire and goes to xlr pin 3 and J9 pin 1 is the blue audio signal that goes to xlr pin 2. Hope this helps.
Even one channel sounds good; can't wait until I have time to fully complete both amps. :thumb:
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Hey guys,
Just wanted to give a quick update. It turns out that 2 pairs of my xlr to rca were the culprit. When I received Jason's XLR to RCA cables, all were good! I wanted to thank all the guys who have tried to help out here on AC for you all are a valuable resource. Jason - thanks so much for your help and time. :thumb:
Sincerely,
Christian
PS - I actually got this done last night, but since I had it working - I had to enjoy and listen first. For a couple of hours. :dance:
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Glad it's all working properly now.
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...The balanced signal cable is indeed not the Mogami cable earlier purchasers received. This cable is stamped on the jacket "hypex electronics QuietConduit low-noise balanced audio cable." So it appears hypex is now making the balanced signal cables itself. I don't know if this is because of supply issues with the Mogami cable or why they switched.
Airborn,
Thanks for the response. No one has a problem sourcing Mogami 2791. I can only hope that the actual manufacturer the new cable for Hypex, is providing cable superior to that Mogami.
Regards,
Paul
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Airborn, I also received two different cable types, one Mogami and the others Hypex. The blue wire's polarity is inverse as between the Mogami and Hypex cables.
If I recall, the Hypex cable differs from the Mogami in that the former uses an inner rubber (?) filling that looks to me to target microphonics.
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We did indeed decide to roll our own. It's a full custom product designed by yours truly. The manufacturer is "one of the usual suspects".
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We did indeed decide to roll our own. It's a full custom product designed by yours truly. The manufacturer is "one of the usual suspects".
there have been several users which had problems with Figure 2 on p12 on the ncore documentation relating them to the pin numbering of the audio input/nampon. It could be helpful to recall pin numbers on the ncore board depicted on this figure and possibly indicate the color of your new cable as it is provided now (could save some moments of doubts)
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there have been several users which had problems with Figure 2 on p12 on the ncore documentation relating them to the pin numbering of the audio input/nampon. It could be helpful to recall pin numbers on the ncore board depicted on this figure and possibly indicate the color of your new cable as it is provided now (could save some moments of doubts)
+1
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Ok got one monoblock working but didn't have time to put the other together. The balanced signal cable is indeed not the Mogami cable earlier purchasers received. This cable is stamped on the jacket "hypex electronics QuietConduit low-noise balanced audio cable." So it appears hypex is now making the balanced signal cables itself. I don't know if this is because of supply issues with the Mogami cable or why they switched. In any case the connectors are as described above, i.e., J9 pin 4 is the yellow shield wire and goes to xlr pin 1, J9 pin 3 is the black nampon wire and goes to chassis/ground, J9 pin 2 is the white inverted audio wire and goes to xlr pin 3 and J9 pin 1 is the blue audio signal that goes to xlr pin 2. Hope this helps.
Even one channel sounds good; can't wait until I have time to fully complete both amps. :thumb:
Airborn, glad I found these posts of yours as I have just received my modules and have the same new hypex cable. The change of colours is very confusing! However I am still puzzled as to why you describe the shield as a yellow wire - mine is just bare silver coloured wire mesh -?
And a technical question for those with the knowledge: I don't have any enclosures yet so I intend to connect both the nampon and the shield to pin 1 of the XLR socket. Will that work ok?
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However I am still puzzled as to why you describe the shield as a yellow wire - mine is just bare silver coloured wire mesh -?
Check the other end of the Hypex cable where the 4 separate wires enter the 4 pin molex connector that plugs into J9 on the Ncore. If you pull back the black outer sheathing you should see the yellow wire at the J9 pin 4 position. That is the shield wire, which is the wire mesh around the inner rubber sheathing on the Hypex cable. See my pic above.
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Hypex have updated the data sheet for the Ncore 400 (new as of July 27) to reflect the change in cable colors. :thumb: They show the blue cable to Pin2 and the white to Pin 3. Not clear to me how the nAMPON and shield are supposed to be connected, though.
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I finished my build (dual mono) on Friday, though I'm going to make some small changes to parts here and there. The amp sounds excellent, but it seems to have a fair bit less gain than, for example, the Sanders Magtech I have been using. The Sanders is 26dB gain. What are the Ncores?
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What are the Ncores?
~26dB
Which I have confirmed.
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Right. So is there anything I might have done that could produce this effect of lower apparent gain? Such as wiring the J9 connections improperly, for example?
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Right. So is there anything I might have done that could produce this effect of lower apparent gain? Such as wiring the J9 connections improperly, for example?
Phase of output wiring is correct?
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~26dB
Which I have confirmed.
What is the input voltage required for full output on NCores?
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What is the input voltage required for full output on NCores?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108251.0
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http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108251.0
I'm sorry, but I don't see any spec for input sensitivity that tells me how much input voltage is required for full rated output on NCores.
For example, drubin's Sanders Magtech requires 2 volts for its full rated output of 900 watt at 4 ohms.
If the NCore has the same input sensitivity as the Magtech and it's putting less than half the power, I think you're going to notice a "fair bit less gain"/SPL level.
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I'm sorry, but I don't see any spec for input sensitivity that tells me how much input voltage is required for full rated output on NCores.
For example, drubin's Sanders Magtech requires 2 volts for its full rated output of 900 watt at 4 ohms.
If the NCore has the same input sensitivity as the Magtech and it's putting less than half the power, I think you're going to notice a "fair bit less gain"/SPL level.
input voltage required = Vout/gain = 40/20 = 2 (26dB calc)
input voltage required = Vout/gain = 40/19.5 = 2.05 (25.8dB calc)
Vout = sqrt(Watts * Ohms) = sqrt(200 * 8 ) = sqrt(1600) = 40
26dB gain = voltage gain of 20.
25.8dB gain = voltage gain of 19.498
Per the data sheet, the NC400's have a gain of slightly under 26dB, 25.8dB but for almost all purposes this is close enough to 26 not to matter. The required input voltage changes by .05V. I have measured the gain on perhaps 6 of these, they are all same.
If the Sanders amp has a gain of 26dB, the level should be the same at any power level below clipping. Gain is not related to power output. But 900W @ 4Ohms works out to an output of 60V and with 26dB of gain that means it would need 3V to reach full power. If it really reaches full power at 2V of input, then it would have a gain of ~29.54dB, a voltage gain of 30.
hth
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The XLR cable that came with my NC400 has blue and white wires running through the braided shield and a black wire running along side the shielded cable . I believe the blue wire goes to the number 2 pin. I believe the white wire goes to the number 3 pin.
The shield is already grounded to the chasis through the NC400, does it need to be attached to the chasis at the other end?
Where should the black wire attach?
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The XLR cable that came with my NC400 has blue and white wires running through the braided shield and a black wire running along side the shielded cable . I believe the blue wire goes to the number 2 pin. I believe the white wire goes to the number 3 pin.
The shield is already grounded to the chasis through the NC400, does it need to be attached to the chasis at the other end?
Where should the black wire attach?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105438.msg1112325#msg1112325
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Pardon the stupid question, but somewhere here on the AC - I saw someone saying they thought for an on-off switch it was best to use a DPDT toggle, and I didn't understand that at all. I can't find that post again, but the person said something about it being related to the nCore design (but again - didn't make sense to me at the time...)
I was thinking that the standard approach of cutting the hot power-in line from the IEC to the power supply & splicing in a basic switch that either connects or disconnects the line would be the right way to add a power line. (Note: the switch I have on order is nothing fancy...just the basic toggle from Hypex...not tied in with an IEC, no light involved, etc.)
Am I missing something here or is my thinking correct?
Thanks,
Mark
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Am I missing something here or is my thinking correct?
You are correct. You want to use a SPST switch whether it's for the AC power in or nAmpon.
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Pardon the stupid question, but somewhere here on the AC - I saw someone saying they thought for an on-off switch it was best to use a DPDT toggle, and I didn't understand that at all. I can't find that post again, but the person said something about it being related to the nCore design (but again - didn't make sense to me at the time...)
I was thinking that the standard approach of cutting the hot power-in line from the IEC to the power supply & splicing in a basic switch that either connects or disconnects the line would be the right way to add a power line. (Note: the switch I have on order is nothing fancy...just the basic toggle from Hypex...not tied in with an IEC, no light involved, etc.)
Am I missing something here or is my thinking correct?
Thanks,
Mark
That should be fine. DPST would probably be appropriate if you ever intend to use balanced AC power.
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That should be fine. DPST would probably be appropriate if you ever intend to use balanced AC power.
So I'm wrong?
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Balanced power puts 60 volts on the neutral and 60 on the hot with respect to ground so you should switch both legs.
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...and I'm not an AC power expert, but it seems logical to me to do that.
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Balanced power puts 60 volts on the neutral and 60 on the hot with respect to ground so you should switch both legs.
...and I'm not an AC power expert, but it seems logical to me to do that.
I must be missing something then. Where does Balanced Power come in with the Hypex units?
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For example, if you plug them into a BPT 3.5 like mine.
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For example, if you plug them into a BPT 3.5 like mine.
OHHHHHHH.
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Ahhh...got it...so if I am just running A/C in from my wall, I use SPST breaking the hot line with the switch (just as I would wiring a light in my house which I have done hundreds of times). If I am using something like the BPT 3.5 I would worry about "balanced A/C power".
Thanks much gents!
FYI, I am working on a layout for an unusual setup...a wall-mounted aluminum/wood case combo. Please watch for my sketches to appear in another thread. I think that would fit in the "build" thread with this being step #1 of my build...planning the layout and case...so watch for it there over the next couple days. I'd love input on the approach I am thinking of. I've been looking at cases and nothing is really what I want...so with prompting from rclark, I've been getting creative in my solution.
Mark
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While the balanced power of units like BPT, Equi=Tech and others sounds like a good idea for common mode noise rejection, a safety concern arises if the power is not switched and/or fused in both legs, which would be easy to implement in DIY but would not be present in most factory built components.
Article 647 of the National Electrical Code, which outlines the use of 120V line-to-line / 60V to ground power, further states that it is only permitted for "commercial or industrial occupancies" and "restricted to areas under close supervision by qualified personnel".
?
Steve
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I would always recommend using a DPST switch on the mains regardless of your implementation. The circuit it is plugged into can be wired incorrectly or as I just found out recently, your power cable can have the polarity reversed. So, why take a chance with the SPST? It is not that much more in work or expense.
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Hi
I purchased two NCore 400 modules along with the corresponding power supplies and Siliconray cases.
My plan is to use a Metrum Octave Dac as source. Now, instead of using XLR sockets, would it be possible to attach RCA plugs to the supplied input cable? Or, even more directly, to solder the wires of the cable to the Octave board? What would I do with the shield and that extra black wire? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, Bruno
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someone who knows a thing or two about thermodynamics told me that aluminum is great at dissipating heat if it is painted or dyed black.
Any comments on the relative dissipation capacity of black vs. natural?
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I suspect what is being assumed with the black thing is that it will be more effective at long wave reradiation. Black color is black because it absorbs all wavelengths of visible light, but this usually means the substance reradiates light at a lower frequency, longer wavelength in the IR band or further.
If coating aluminum enhanced the thermal radiation, this effect would add to heat dissipation by merely conductivity between the metal and the surrounding air. It seems plausible to me there is some effect to what you're suggesting, but I have no idea to what degree. It could be quite minor. It would depend greatly on how warm the material gets as to how much energy might be reradiated.
Of course, this is kind of speculation on my part. Others on here may know more about the physics.
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The increase in efficiency available from painting heat-sink radiator assemblies black is valuable when you are trying to remove heat from a space vehicle or satellite in a vacuum where radiation is the only way that a body can loose excess thermal energy. Of course radiative cooling only works in the absence of solar radiation impinging on the black heat-sink assembly.
Cooling by convection is not possible in a vacuum.
Scotty
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radiative heat transfer depends on the emissivity of the object that is hot. A black object has a higher emissivity and will radiate heat better. How much better depends on several factors, temperature difference being the largest. It is a 4th order effect.
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Just confirming my understanding of grounding and wiring to the XLR connector...it looks like there's been quite a lot on that already, but I want to make sure I understand what was previous written...please let me know if I have it right or not (my modules should be here to install next week!).
First, on the Amp's J9 to the XLR, from what I hear, the drawing provided by nCore in Figure 2 on Page 12 of their instructions is a bit confusing as to "which is pin 1, 2, 3, or 4" relative to how the J9 really looks (as viewed from page 10's "11.2 Front view/pin numbering"). But, if I follow J9 pin definitions from Page 10, the J9 pin 1 goes to XLR pin 2, J9 #2 to XLR #3, J9 #3 goes to nothing (unless I am using nampon), J9 #4 to chassis ground.
Second, XLR pin #1 goes to chassis ground.
and finally, the ground on the power in goes to chassis ground.
Did I get that all correct? Many thanks for confirming or correcting!
Thanks,
Mark
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nampon has to be connected to chassis ground to take the amp module out of standby.
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Now I'm confused...just to confirm: The nampon is J9's pin 3, per section 7.3 Page 5, and Figure 2/page 12 shows J9's pin 3 not connected to anything but J9's pin 4 connected to chassis. Do both Pin 3 (nampon) & 4 (ground) of J9 go to chassis - or do I have something else incorrect in my head?
Thanks,
Mark
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one of the 3 signal wires to the xlr is the shield wire that goes to pin 1 which is also connected to ground. The nampon connection needs to be connected to ground in order for the amp to come out of standby. Most people put a switch between the nampon pin and ground so they can put the amp into standby by lifting it from ground.
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Now I'm confused...just to confirm: The nampon is J9's pin 3, per section 7.3 Page 5, and Figure 2/page 12 shows J9's pin 3 not connected to anything but J9's pin 4 connected to chassis. Do both Pin 3 (nampon) & 4 (ground) of J9 go to chassis - or do I have something else incorrect in my head?
Thanks,
Mark
There are a couple of videos on YouTube that can clarify how you solder an xlr connection. One of those might be helpful.
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Thx - I will look for the videos, and I will also e-mail Hypex w/the question. But, if anyone has a link to the video or a direct answer to my question, I would appreciate it.
Back to cab...per your response, "one of the 3 signal wires to the xlr is the shield wire that goes to pin 1 which is also connected to ground. The nampon connection needs to be connected to ground in order for the amp to come out of standby."...can you explain? I see nothing from Hypex which says this. Are you saying that the wire I say goes to ground (J9, pin #4) should go to ground AND the nampon connection (J9, pin #3) ALSO goes to ground? Maybe their drawing in Figure 2/page 12 is wrong...but they do not show that. They show J9/pin #4 going to ground & J9/pin #3 (nampon) not connected to anything, and this is where I am confused on what they show vs. what you say. If you can clarify, that would be great.
Thanks!
Mark
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Let me say it a third time: nampon needs to be connected to ground in order to take the amp out of standby. If you don't ground nampon, the amp will be in standby and not play. Assuming you are using balanced mode, pin 4 goes to ground as well. Ask hypex. I don't know how to say it any clearer....Look at some of the build pictures in the show me your ncore thread....
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cab...thanks for your attempts to answer, and I am sorry you are frustrated that you have had to answer 3 times. But, what you wrote was not (and still is not) clear to me. I have indeed e-mails Hypex also...just awaiting their response.
If I get correctly what you are saying, you mean that J9 #1 goes to XLR #2, J9 #2 to XLR #3, J9 #3 to chassis, J9 #4 also to chassis. Can cab or anyone else confirm that is correct?
And yes - I have look at pix on the build thread, but I cannot see any which are clear enough on this aspect to see this...none have enough zoom to see it, and if I make the image large enough there are not enough pixels to see it either.
Thanks for the help...
Mark
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If I get correctly what you are saying, you mean that J9 #1 goes to XLR #2, J9 #2 to XLR #3, J9 #3 to chassis, J9 #4 also to chassis. Can cab or anyone else confirm that is correct?
Mark
Yes correct, but replace "chassis" by "ground" where ground is "XLR #1". Obviously most connect XLR# 1 also to chassis as per hypex documentation but it is not an obligation. Some connect the chassis to AC power earth for safety reasons.
As for nampon: hypex documentation clearly states "Pulling nAMPON low enables the amplifier as soon as all error conditions have been cleared for at least two seconds". So you need to connect it to ground if you wish to enable the amp. You can do it permanently or add a switch if you want to be able to turn off the power module alone.
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cab...thanks for your attempts to answer, and I am sorry you are frustrated that you have had to answer 3 times. But, what you wrote was not (and still is not) clear to me. I have indeed e-mails Hypex also...just awaiting their response.
If I get correctly what you are saying, you mean that J9 #1 goes to XLR #2, J9 #2 to XLR #3, J9 #3 to chassis, J9 #4 also to chassis. Can cab or anyone else confirm that is correct?
And yes - I have look at pix on the build thread, but I cannot see any which are clear enough on this aspect to see this...none have enough zoom to see it, and if I make the image large enough there are not enough pixels to see it either.
Thanks for the help...
You know the black signal input cable that you get with the Ncore? Well there is a seperate thin black wire coming out of the molex connector that is the Nampon wire, connect that to ground and you're ready to go.
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Thanks guys! That makes sense now. And, I got an answer back from Hypex also that really made it all very clear. He also had not noticed that their drawing in their instructions is not correct...it shows no connection between J9 #3 and anything. So, when answers here said I needed to connect something, that made me very confused.
Anyway, thanks for your help!
Mark
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Another wiring question...for the power connections into the power supply (the power supply's J3 connector), the factory-supplied cables have a blue wire and a reddish-brown wire. Which one is supposed to connect to the wall's +/hot side and which one to the -/neutral side? I don't see anything in the instructions for that.
Thanks!
Mark
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Another wiring question...for the power connections into the power supply (the power supply's J3 connector), the factory-supplied cables have a blue wire and a reddish-brown wire. Which one is supposed to connect to the wall's +/hot side and which one to the -/neutral side? I don't see anything in the instructions for that.
Thanks!
Mark
The brown wire is live or hot and the blue is neutral, remember to twist them first :wink:
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Thanks! I'll have to put on some Chubby Checker as I do the wiring...
:D
Mark
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:thumb:
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Are the OEM boards the exact same as the ones available to us ? If so what is different ? Thanks in advance.
charles
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Are the OEM boards the exact same as the ones available to us ? If so what is different ? Thanks in advance.
charles
No. Power output, SMPS.....many things are different.
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Hi,
I've entered the fray and ordered the NC400's and associated power supplies. All parts should be coming in by next week, however the lead time on the SiliconRay enclosures that many have been using is about 3 weeks. :?
I found some tube amp chassis units that I think would work and they're immediately available.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251170550045?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619
Any reason that I shouldn't try to use these? Adequate cooling is a bit of a concern.
KC
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I have no cooling in my dual mono aluminium box, and its fine
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Hi,
I've entered the fray and ordered the NC400's and associated power supplies. All parts should be coming in by next week, however the lead time on the SiliconRay enclosures that many have been using is about 3 weeks. :?
I found some tube amp chassis units that I think would work and they're immediately available.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251170550045?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619
Any reason that I shouldn't try to use these? Adequate cooling is a bit of a concern.
KC
The ebay chassis looks very nice. I would prefer it to the Silicon Ray enclosure, which I have for my Ncores. Perhaps the seller would drill some holes in the top and bottom for passive ventilation. That would probably do the trip.
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I've ordered the enclosures from eBay: http://myworld.ebay.com/po1019/. Thanks everyone for your input.
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may be asked many times:
What is the current total cost of Ncores . If i have 3 way active system where would NCore sound the best (aka to tweeter ,mid or bass) . Also can some one recommend the best components to get.
May be these are asked before just asking...
V
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may be asked many times:
What is the current total cost of Ncores . If i have 3 way active system where would NCore sound the best (aka to tweeter ,mid or bass) . Also can some one recommend the best components to get.
May be these are asked before just asking...
V
https://www.google.com/search?q=google+currency+converter&aq=1&oq=google+curen&sugexp=chrome,mod=0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Full Range! :green:
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https://www.google.com/search?q=google+currency+converter&aq=1&oq=google+curen&sugexp=chrome,mod=0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Full Range! :green:
Actually meant to ask the other parts except ordering..like cases which RCA etc etc....not sure i was clear...just wanted to know how much to expect to spend as i need to save it before so asking how much to save ecept the currency risk we have
V
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Actually meant to ask the other parts except ordering..like cases which RCA etc etc....not sure i was clear...just wanted to know how much to expect to spend as i need to save it before so asking how much to save ecept the currency risk we have
V
All depends on your build.
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All depends on your build.
and what about if using in active setup where to put it?..not sure but i am planning to use
dual smps with the Ncore module ....does that ans?
V
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and what about if using in active setup where to put it?..not sure but i am planning to use
dual smps with the Ncore module ....does that ans?
V
It all depends on the other amps....
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I have a two-way active system (one driver for <250Hz, and one for >250Hz)
You will definitely be getting tighter bass with NC400, but then on mid/treble you will also be getting quicker, faster sounds than most Class A and AB amps. Also, all the other associated benefits like great dynamic range, etc.
So my feeling is there significant improvement in both areas - so its up to you and your preferences if you choose to pick only one.
Although I have been pondering recently a related question:
I have a pair of NC400s, and if I did got a pair of NC1200, in this system would it be best to put the NC1200 on the >250Hz or the <250Hz section? i.e does NC1200 have equal benefits over the NC400 across the whole spectrum?
If someone has experience with both NC400 and NC1200, I would appreciate your comments. . .
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If someone has experience with both NC400 and NC1200, I would appreciate your comments. . .
If you are not able to run the NC1200 amps full range and had to pick where to put it, it should go on the mid / top end IME. Put the NC400 down on the bottom. Of course there are many variables but I'd say this would be the way to go.
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If you are not able to run the NC1200 amps full range and had to pick where to put it, it should go on the mid / top end IME. Put the NC400 down on the bottom. Of course there are many variables but I'd say this would be the way to go.
+1
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On the topic of Ncores, I have an issue I'm hoping someone might know a fix for. I've had the modules for a couple months and (with the exception of lodging a screw in the aluminum plate) haven't had any issues. Due to laziness, they weren't in a chassis for a while (but grounded). Recently I put them in a chassis and was initially having some issues getting audio (a speaker wire broke off in the terminal on the module, possibly coupled with grounding issues, I got the modules working). Recently however, both modules are having some really weird and disconcerting issues. It started when turning the modules on after a couple hours of use (historically, I had left them on all the time). When I turned them back on, one of the modules wasn't producing sound. I opened it up, moved some stuff around, and got it producing sound again (no idea what the exact fix was). This is one concern. The bigger concern however is that when I shut this module off now (and the other though to a lesser extent) it makes a spastic clicking noise (like when turning on) at least ten times and very quickly. All the while the leds are flashing. Then, it shuts off. The other module does this too though to a lesser degree. I'm certain I've never had this issue prior. My only thought is that it might be a ground issue. Right now all the grounding is fairly standard. On the XLR input I have the +/- wired normally with a case ground on the third (ground pin) furthermore the sleeve of the xlr cable is grounded to the xlr connector at the ground tab. I highly doubt this is the problem but hopefully it is and doesn't necessitate returning the modules. Has anyone experienced anything similar or have any ideas what it might be? Please share if so.
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On the topic of Ncores, I have an issue I'm hoping someone might know a fix for. I've had the modules for a couple months and (with the exception of lodging a screw in the aluminum plate) haven't had any issues. Due to laziness, they weren't in a chassis for a while (but grounded). Recently I put them in a chassis and was initially having some issues getting audio (a speaker wire broke off in the terminal on the module, possibly coupled with grounding issues, I got the modules working). Recently however, both modules are having some really weird and disconcerting issues. It started when turning the modules on after a couple hours of use (historically, I had left them on all the time). When I turned them back on, one of the modules wasn't producing sound. I opened it up, moved some stuff around, and got it producing sound again (no idea what the exact fix was). This is one concern. The bigger concern however is that when I shut this module off now (and the other though to a lesser extent) it makes a spastic clicking noise (like when turning on) at least ten times and very quickly. All the while the leds are flashing. Then, it shuts off. The other module does this too though to a lesser degree. I'm certain I've never had this issue prior. My only thought is that it might be a ground issue. Right now all the grounding is fairly standard. On the XLR input I have the +/- wired normally with a case ground on the third (ground pin) furthermore the sleeve of the xlr cable is grounded to the xlr connector at the ground tab. I highly doubt this is the problem but hopefully it is and doesn't necessitate returning the modules. Has anyone experienced anything similar or have any ideas what it might be? Please share if so.
Can you please post pictures of the back of the XLR and where it all grounds? Also, an overall picture.
Your Nampon is to the chassis too; right?
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Here are two pictures. To update things and perhaps add to further confusion, I plugged the amps in again today and they are working to the extent that both produce audio. One however was dropping out initially but now seems to be stable. It seems as though there might be capacitor issue involving residual power that causes the module and SMPS to act erratically. Appreciate your effort to help.
http://i.imgur.com/9OTJf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4Vxt2.jpg
-the second pic is of the xlr connection. The it goes left to right, ground to chassis, white, blue. The xlr inner sleeve is grounded to the tab on the xlr input.
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Okay so after a brief instance of the amps working somewhat well, they have now failed again. I am out of guesses as they aren't behaving erratically like before. In the most recent instance, one shut off, then shortly after, the other did too. While the power switch remained on, the leds (wafflee, which are the series of red lights on the ncore module) shut off. I'm totally confused. My guesses are a grounding issue, a polarity inconsistency (which shouldn't have these effects), or damaged modules/power supplies. I'm concerned that the stress (mainly during the erratic on off phase) could have damaged certain components.
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Your photo of the xlr doesn't look right for fully balanced mode. Is that what you intended? Have you tried disconnecting the ground from the xlr (while leaving the napon grounded)?
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Try wiring the shield from the input wire directly to xlr pin 1 and run the ground wire for the xlr from the ground tab to the mounting screw. Also, sand off some of the anodizing on the case where the nut on the mounting screw touches the case to make a better connection. Do the same on the IEC ground wire.
Also try running the speaker wires out of the left side of the connectors and over the module to give more space between the wires. You've got a lot of wires in close proximity on the right side, which might have inductive effects.
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Have you checked DC Offset? It's possible that it could do what you say but somewhat unlikely as I haven't heard of any DC Offset QC issues as of late.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105438.msg1087123#msg1087123
Also, did you not solder the shield direct to the XLR connector for any reason? It would be a whole lot easier then using some speaker wire and also minimize's a failure point.
You can kinda see what I've done here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106187.msg1104426#msg1104426
Basically you just cut the shield down one side and twist it really nice and then tin, then solder to the XLR connector. I would then run a wire from that joint to chassis ground and I would connect Nampon to that point too.
Last, I doubt it but have you disconnected your IEC ground and tried that? Also, your polarity is correct at IEC?
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I appreciate the advice and responses. I've tried all the wiring suggestions with the exception of investigating the DC offset. I've also sanded the case to improve contact. No luck... Does anyone know whether the three screws the keep the module in place function to ground it as well? Perhaps there's something here? Otherwise I haven't a clue and will wait until Monday when hopefully I hear back from Hypex. I'll update the thread as things progress and I find out the problem.
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Where are you located?
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Don't the shield and the ground pins both need to be wired to ground?
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I don't know if this belongs or not? If not please move to correct location. Question, what preamps are people using with the ncore amps either the 400 or 1200? Thanks!
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I don't know if this belongs or not? If not please move to correct location. Question, what preamps are people using with the ncore amps either the 400 or 1200? Thanks!
I've seen LDR's, TRL Dude, Atma-Sphere, Krell, Emotiva, Conrad Johnson, Bent Audio, Pass Labs B1, Dodd Buffer, Goldpoint...................
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I've had great results with both the Tube Research Labs Dude (6SN7's) single ended linestage and Zesto Audio Leto (12AX7's) balanced transformer outputs to the Acoustic Imagery Atsah monoblocks (NC1200) and DIY NC400 monoblocks. The NCores seem to preserve everything the tube stages get just right. I haven't tried any SS stages yet.
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deHavilland Ultra Verve 2 or 3
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deHavilland Ultra Verve 2 or 3
Nice. How well does it mate with the NCore's?
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Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE with NCore 400 monos. Fully balanced and dead quite. Perfect for the resolution capable through the NCores.
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Keep in mind that the ncore has a snr of over 120 db while most tube preamps are no where close....
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Not sure if it's just me, but hypex has been reported as an attack site and is blocked. I've tried google and IE but no go.
hypexshop is OK but I can't download the data sheets.
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Not sure if it's just me, but hypex has been reported as an attack site and is blocked. I've tried google and IE but no go.
hypexshop is OK but I can't download the data sheets.
They know about it as it's been reported on diy.
They are the older revision but depending on what you're after you can see these http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108251.0
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I plan to drill some ventilation holes in the top of my amp enclosures or maybe the sides. Do both the SMP600 and NC400 get equally warm or just the NC400. Thanks.
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I plan to drill some ventilation holes in the top of my amp enclosures or maybe the sides. Do both the SMP600 and NC400 get equally warm or just the NC400. Thanks.
The power supply is the heater of the two.
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I have a finish planned for the top surfaces so I'm hoping I can just drill into the bottom of the enclosure, and the back, and that should give a nice low flow of air. The amps don't get hot at all, but there's also no reason to store that warm air in there, and it will eventually be summer again. I have a drill and some bits, but they're just regular drill bits, not sure if they can do through metal, is there a special sort of bit I should be using?
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I have a finish planned for the top surfaces so I'm hoping I can just drill into the bottom of the enclosure, and the back, and that should give a nice low flow of air. The amps don't get hot at all, but there's also no reason to store that warm air in there, and it will eventually be summer again. I have a drill and some bits, but they're just regular drill bits, not sure if they can do through metal, is there a special sort of bit I should be using?
Do as you wish but you totally wasting your time and effort. The chassis is a heat sink. This has been discussed many times....
Read the data sheet!
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Yes but after I'm done with my finish, the chassis won't be as efficient as it once was.
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Yes but after I'm done with my finish, the chassis won't be as efficient as it once was.
Why is that?
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That thing I talked about, it's 6mm thick, at least initially, and it covers the surface.
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That thing I talked about, it's 6mm thick, at least initially, and it covers the surface.
It's only one surface though. Right?
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Yes, if you clad it with wood or something, it won't radiate heat as well. But didn't some of the people who previously built the NC400 amps comment that several components on the SMPS board ran fairly hot (transformer?). Ventillation is never a bad idea.
Steve
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It will cover everything but the bottom and back panels.
However, you're right, as they are now, barely warm to the touch when I run them, and they are completely sealed. Nearly 500 watts a piece (at 4ohm, according to MGALUSHA's 8ohm measurements of 240 rather than the published 200 watts) and barely warm. Amazing.
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I have a finish planned for the top surfaces so I'm hoping I can just drill into the bottom of the enclosure, and the back, and that should give a nice low flow of air. The amps don't get hot at all, but there's also no reason to store that warm air in there, and it will eventually be summer again. I have a drill and some bits, but they're just regular drill bits, not sure if they can do through metal, is there a special sort of bit I should be using?
Heat rises so I don't see how drilling holes in the enclosure's bottom will dissipate any minor heat buildup or create any airflow for that matter unless you drill holes in the enclosure's top (or sides) also. :dunno:
Cheers,
Robin
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bottom and back..
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bottom and back..
That'll work. :thumb:
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....need to get a few more bits before I start to build the encores. Could someone tell me what type/size crimp I need to connect the
(TE Connectivity 15CUE1) IEC inlet, and also what are those plastic covers called that slide over the crimp. If someone could point me to a website to order in the UK or just to show what I need to order would be a great help. Thanks.
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....need to get a few more bits before I start to build the encores. Could someone tell me what type/size crimp I need to connect the
(TE Connectivity 15CUE1) IEC inlet, and also what are those plastic covers called that slide over the crimp. If someone could point me to a website to order in the UK or just to show what I need to order would be a great help. Thanks.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106336.0
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http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106336.0
I take it the link was to ask the question on the correct forum because I couldn't find what I was looking for, thanks anyway.
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I take it the link was to ask the question on the correct forum because I couldn't find what I was looking for, thanks anyway.
http://www.cor.com/Series/PEM/CU/
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....need to get a few more bits before I start to build the encores. Could someone tell me what type/size crimp I need to connect the
(TE Connectivity 15CUE1) IEC inlet, and also what are those plastic covers called that slide over the crimp. If someone could point me to a website to order in the UK or just to show what I need to order would be a great help. Thanks.
I used Tyco 22-18 crimp on connectors. The gold plated connectors are probably what you should look for. In the US, they are commonly sold at auto supply stores. The insulator is integrated with the connector, so you don't need anything else.
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Is the basic idea of the Tyco that you stick in the power cable on one side, crimp using a crimping tool, and then plug the other side into the IEC socket?
Do you crimp on the IEC socket too, or just plug in?
Sorry if these are novice questions. . .
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@DaveX & @dan92075
The connectors you need used to be called 'Lucas or Lucar' spade connectors in the UK and Hypex supply the same thing called 'Fastons'.
Hypex only do the 6.3mm wide Fastons and what you need is the smaller 4.8mm wide ones for the rear connections to the IEC input sockets.
Here's a good supplier in the UK for both sizes.... http://www.jprelec.co.uk/store.asp/c=427/Fully-Insulated-Fem.-Push-on-Receptacles
You crimp the mains cables onto the 'spades' with a crimp tool. The one I use and it's good value (11 euros +VAT), is from Hypex.... https://www.hypexshop.com/ and is under 'tooling'.
@dan92075 Then you just push the spade recepticle firmly onto the appropriate spade terminal on the rear of the IEC socket. They're designed to 'bite' onto the spade so you must push hard and no need to crimp that bit.
Hope that helps and good luck with the builds and who knows one day you may be able to graduate to a 'full on' pair of NC1200 based amps (lottery permitting !!)
Cheers
John
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Is the basic idea of the Tyco that you stick in the power cable on one side, crimp using a crimping tool, and then plug the other side into the IEC socket?
Do you crimp on the IEC socket too, or just plug in?
Sorry if these are novice questions. . .
acousticimagery has answered your question, but let me add that Youtube is handy for learning how to solve some of these installation challenges. For example, I had no idea how to prep the XLR cable for soldering to the connector but found a short video online that explained the process in a couple of minutes.
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acousticimagery has answered your question, but let me add that Youtube is handy for learning how to solve some of these installation challenges. For example, I had no idea how to prep the XLR cable for soldering to the connector but found a short video online that explained the process in a couple of minutes.
Since you brought it up, here are the steps on the input wiring and I do tin each wire.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69920)
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Since you brought it up, here are the steps on the input wiring and I do tin each wire.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69920)
Agree that tinning makes it much easier to complete the solder connection without melting the XLR connector. Clip-on heatsinks are also a good idea (at least when I'm soldering). :icon_lol:
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Hypex only do the 6.3mm wide Fastons and what you need is the smaller 4.8mm wide ones for the rear connections to the IEC input sockets.
John
Another link for 4.8 female crimps and 4.8 PVC covers. The good thing is that you don't have to order in 100 packs, I ordered packs of 25 each.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/A1-DISTRIBUTORS/Uninsulated-and-PVC-Covers-/_i.html?_fsub=2262592013&_sid=1037930333&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
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New question: Has anyone tried a Class A tube preamp with the ncore amps either the 400's or the 1200's? Your impressions. Anyone try a Supratek Cabernet Dual with the ncores?
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New question: Has anyone tried a Class A tube preamp with the ncore amps either the 400's or the 1200's?
Yes, many of us do. :thumb:
Anyone try a Supratek Cabernet Dual with the ncores?
Don't know about this but maybe someone that does will see this.
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nC400 wiring: I am well aware of the recommended wiring strategy for nC400 module input wiring (pin 1 direct to chassis, Shield wire direct to chassis, nAmpon to G/chassis), but I am wondering if anyone has tried alternative approaches.
Many audio manufacturers avoid tying the signal ground (pin 1) to the chassis, as they feel the chassis generally has plenty of RFI on it, and hooking up the signal ground to the chassis gives a path for this RFI to easily get into the circuit. Note, that the ground of the SMPS600 is connected to the chassis through the single metal standoff.
I am wondering if there may be an advantage to connecting pin 1 only to the shield wire, and not to the chassis-also note that most audio interconnects are not wired as shown in Hypex's diagrams: the shield of a high end balanced interconnect is usually only connected at the source end, and a separate discrete wire is used to carry the signal ground.
I am assuming class 2 construction with no AC ground connection (for similar reasons, many feel that connecting AC ground to the chassis just allows for another path for unwanted noise to get into the circuit).
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Many audio manufacturers...
Many audio manufacturers are wrong, in that they treat pin1 as part of the audio circuit while it should exclusively be seen as part of the chassis/shield.
A search with the term "Pin1 problem" will yield plenty of results.
E.g. see Rane Note 110, Note 151, the AES48-2005 standard or Neil Muncy's "Noise Susceptibility in Analog and Digital Signal Processing Systems" seminal paper.
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"barrows" you have it all upside down. All shields should be connected directly to the chassis, with as short a wire as possible. You want the noise to stay on the chassis/enclosure, where the chassis acts just like the cable shield. Almost all balanced cable shields are connected at both ends, only under special conditions could the shield at the receive end be lifted (and in those special cases use a hybrid connection).
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Actually, no, I do not have it "wrong" and neither do many well respected audio manufacturers who may do this differently than the "AES way". I think if you do a little digging, you would be surprised to find that many audio cables terminate the shield in a balanced cable at only the source end.
I am very aware of the "pin 1 problem" papers, etc... My point is specifically that there is more than one way to do this, and there is no definitive "right" way, except for the closed minded.
For example, consider Ayre, they float the chassis of their preamps entirely, no pin 1 connection to chassis, and no AC ground connection to chassis. Now, go to Stereophile.com and read the measurements of the Ayre KX-R preamp, see any "problems" associated with this way of doing things...
Certainly, if one does things by the "AES way" it will work, and especially in the complex enviroment of pro audio, where controlling ground loops can be a very complex issue, it is advisable to follow the "AES way". But, in home audio, especially with DIY, we have other options available, which may actually improve performance, we can explore those options. As long as we consider all connected components (including cables, many audiophile cables ae unshielded as well) as a system, and do what we need to to avoid ground loops, we may find better performance through a different wiring scheme.
The point of this question is to ask if anyone has tried this yet, not to get lectured about the "right" way to do it according to the AES.
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I think if you do a little digging, you would be surprised to find that many audio cables terminate the shield in a balanced cable at only the source end.
Which, if you do a little more digging, has been found to make some sense only in "non-AES" terminated balanced lines.
If you do it the "AES way", you're better off connecting shields on both ends. I have the links somewhere, I can look them up if you're genuinely interested.
Of course these are all "details" for some cable companies, many of whom have no technical background whatsoever and only "experiment" (with built-to-order cables from proper manufacturers) with the aim of differentiating their products.
Standards become standards for a reason; they do work in a predictable and effective (objectively proven) way.
I didn't mean to "lecture" you; your question genuinely had me thinking you are unaware of the technical research on which the standards were based.
Since, allegedly, you are aware of said work I'm afraid I can't help you. Life is too short and my time is too valuable to go on re-inventing the wheel (that is: even if I had the means to counter all the technical arguments clearly presented by Muncy and his peers who exposed the pin1 problem) or "revolt" against the standards.
Still, if you do have the technical means to do so, please keep us updated with your (objective, preferably) findings. :wink:
At the very least, it'll be fun to see that even bright, knowledgeable and talented people like Bruno can be unaware of wiring schemes that help get the best out of the state-of-the-art amps they've designed. :green:
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Well it is easy for me to be relatively objective in my evaluation. I can hear the noise floor of the nCore modules with my ear within a 1/2" of my tweeters, so I will be able to objectively say if there is a "problem" or not with the noise level, RF coupling into the circuit is a little bit different though.
I have read most of the papers you are referring to, but I did do a little refresher reading yesterday, and I investigated my preferred pair of balanced cables here. The cables have the shield terminated at both ends to pin 1.
But, the recommendation of Hypex does not appear to be the exact same as most of the "AES approved" methods: Hypex wants one to terminate pin 1 to chassis, and to then terminate the shield of their input wiring also chassis, at a different point, but close to the XLR (they want to maintain the shield of the input cabling). But this is not the same as the general recommendation for terminating the signal ground to chassis (the Hypex input cable shield is signal ground as well). Also, consider a stereo (or multi channel) nCore build, one will now have two (or more) signal ground connections to chassis, at different points, hmmm? The papers suggest that connecting signal ground to chassis (at a single point), and pin 1 to chassis, will somehow avoid coupling RF running on the shields to the circuitry, but they are still connected through the chassis, and in a stereo amp, one now has some nice paths for potential loops as well when doing it the Hypex way.
Additionally, I have a DAC which has considerable DC from both pin 2 and pin 3 to ground. There are 3 ways to deal with this: do not connect the signal ground in the source at all to the amp, use output caps, or use an output transformer. Considering the RF produced by a DAC, I am looking into transformer coupling it with a Jensen or Lundahl. I also think it might be interesting to experiment with transformer coupling the nCore, as I have some experience with these modules being very sensitive to RF at their inputs.
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There is also an interesting article (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diyaudio-com-articles/163575-audio-component-grounding-interconnection.html) by Mr. Davenport, over at diyAudio, which addresses Class I/Class II interconnection issues etc.
On a related note, I picked up the habit of integrating safety loop breakers in my projects from Mr. Elliott's website.
I'm also very fond of quality transformers but generally I can't justify the cost unless I plan to use them for BAL/SE conversions as well.
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shaman: thanks for the link, lots of good information in Dave's article. But, he is mostly advocating for classic star grounding schemes, which is quite different from what Hypex recommends. There is another approach: no AC ground connection, no center tap transformers, full bridge rectification, and grounding the power supply output to signal only through the circuit(s) itself. Mr. Putzeys has mentioned more than once, that star grounding is entirely ineffective at dealing with high frequency noise. For wiring the nC400s and SMPS600 Hypex's first recommendation is class 2 construction, with no connection to the AC ground, each SMPS600 referenced to chassis through the one metal leg (be sure to remove annodizing/paint from the chassis at that point), and connecting both pin 1 of the XLR jack, and the shield (ground of the nCore module) to the chassis at different points, as close to the XLR jack as possible.
After much thought, I am going to set up this stereo amp with Hypex's recommended wiring scheme, I will also insure that there is no possible way the AC input wiring can come loose, or short to chassis. Then I will have some more serious thought and experimenting at hand for figuring the best way to deal with the output wiring scheme of my new DAC build…
Additionally, unless one is using a half inch (or more) thick one piece machined from billet aluminum, or perhaps, a one piece cast copper, chassis, there is no way a multi piece chassis of thin plate is going to shield anything, RF will pass right through the gaps between panels, and the panels themselves.
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Well it is easy for me to be relatively objective in my evaluation. I can hear the noise floor of the nCore modules with my ear within a 1/2" of my tweeters, so I will be able to objectively say if there is a "problem" or not with the noise level, RF coupling into the circuit is a little bit different though.
bull. You're hearing something else causing that, there is no way you can hear the noise floor of these amps, it's 126-130dB down. You're hearing something else.
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Sorry, you are wrong. I live in a rural area, the noise floor in the room on a calm night is very low. I can hear the noise floor of the amps with my ear within an inch or so of the tweeter. Simple as that.
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You are the first person to report this. RClark is right, the noise floor is 130db down. I would look for other explanations.
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not a chance. You're hearing some sort of noise in your system, but it's not the amps.
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You are the first person to report this. RClark is right, the noise floor is 130db down. I would look for other explanations.
Hilarious! Respectfully, what "other explanations" would you suggest, considering we are talking about only an amplifier connected directly to a loudspeaker, with no other components connected?
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Hilarious! Respectfully, what "other explanations" would you suggest, considering we are talking about only an amplifier connected directly to a loudspeaker, with no other components connected?
this should be good - anxiously awaiting the fanboy response... :lol:
doug s.
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Lemme get this straight, we are worrying about a noise floor only heard within 1 to 1/2" of the tweeter?
Hardly something I would lose any sleep over at all.
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Hilarious! Respectfully, what "other explanations" would you suggest, considering we are talking about only an amplifier connected directly to a loudspeaker, with no other components connected?
grounding issues, rfi/emi, poor connections, problem with the dc offset in the amp or other internal problem, etc.
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There are people with 105+db efficient systems that can't hear a thing. These don't have an audible noise floor. Kind of one of the major points of the amp. Something is faulty.
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But for noise at 1" from the tweeter? Worth bothering with? Not in my book.
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There are people with 105+db efficient systems that can't hear a thing. These don't have an audible noise floor. Kind of one of the major points of the amp. Something is faulty.
Nothing faulty, I have had two pairs of nCore modules here, all (4) exhibit the same level of noise with nothing at their input. I am not suggesting that the noise is a "problem" in any way, but I can hear it as described. As mentioned, the noise floor in my room on a calm night is very low. I live in a small home in a rural area, and as long as the furnace is not running, there are really no sources (beyond the noise of the earth itself) of background noise to contend with.
But this distraction has gotten us a little off topic.
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grounding issues, rfi/emi, poor connections, problem with the dc offset in the amp or other internal problem, etc.
Nope: this is smooth, even, noise. Completely unrelated to grounding issues, RFI, or a bad connection. There are no bad connections, or DC offsets. I have measured all nCore modules for offset and adjusted accordingly when necessary. I am not exactly inexperienced in these areas… Additionally, 4 different modules and SMPS600s have all exhibited the same noise level. If it were dues to a "problem" I doubt that it would be this consistent.
But when I get the current build together I will check again with shorted inputs as well, as that will eliminate RF pickup through the input as a factor.
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Gotta be something wrong. In your build, maybe your power. I've read of a person having this issue before, way deep in the diyaudio thread, and it was resolved, then he couldn't hear anything after that, not even ear pressed up.
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Nope, nothing wrong. As mentioned, all modules of four exhibit the same noise. Either when tested without a case and wired simply to an XLR (shield and nAmpon to pin 1), or, when wired up in a case. I have tested 4 modules separately, two of those both without any case, and then in monoblock cases wired per Hypex's recs.
There really is nothing wrong here though, just the normal noise floor of the amps. It is OK with me if others cannot hear it, their rooms are likely louder than mine.
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I don't think so. Most of those guys are pretty hardcore, with treated/high end rooms and set ups. There is no reason you should be hearing an amp with an S/N ratio, and measured, of 130dB.
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Gotta be something wrong. In your build, maybe your power. I've read of a person having this issue before, way deep in the diyaudio thread, and it was resolved, then he couldn't hear anything after that, not even ear pressed up.
I don't think so. Most of those guys are pretty hardcore, with treated/high end rooms and set ups. There is no reason you should be hearing an amp with an S/N ratio, and measured, of 130dB.
:deadhorse:
:scratch: doug s.
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Nothing faulty, I have had two pairs of nCore modules here, all (4) exhibit the same level of noise with nothing at their input.
Are you saying you hear the noise with no signal or with the inputs open, i.e., with nothing across them?
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Are you saying you hear the noise with no signal or with the inputs open, i.e., with nothing across them?
Both/either… Remember, this is very low level noise, ear within an inch or less (it is hard to measure that close, lol) of the tweeter. Either with the DAC connected, or with the inputs open.
I am waiting for a chassis to arrive to do the current (stereo) build. When that is done, I will test the same with shorted inputs as well, to avoid the possibility of noise (RF) pickup through the inputs.
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Any refrigerator compressors, light rheostats or the like pumping garbage into your mains?
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Any refrigerator compressors, light rheostats or the like pumping garbage into your mains?
Nope, not during the test. I am well aware of the potential effects of external noise sources. My house is also on a dedicated transformer, not shared with any neighbors.
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Huh, weird, well I hope you get it sorted out. I can't hear a thing on either of my speakers, volume cranked, ear pressed to the panel, or tweeter, etc. I know you said you were going to explore the issue further, good luck with that.
And let us know how your grounding scheme works out, if there's any improvement.
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Huh, weird, well I hope you get it sorted out. I can't hear a thing on either of my speakers, volume cranked, ear pressed to the panel, or tweeter, etc. I know you said you were going to explore the issue further, good luck with that.
And let us know how your grounding scheme works out, if there's any improvement.
But is this really something that needs sorting out? Bigger problems out there in the audio world than something only audible 1" from the tweeter.
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It just doesn't make sense is all, doesn't jibe with my experience, or others. That's all. I know hearing a slight noise .5 inch from the tweeter in a silent room is not a big deal, but he shouldn't be hearing anything at all, the fact that he is tells me something is wrong.
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But is this really something that needs sorting out? Bigger problems out there in the audio world than something only audible 1" from the tweeter.
No, there is nothing which needs sorting out, as I have mentioned, what I am hearing is just the normal noise floor of the amps: very smooth, extremely low level hiss, most likely just the thermal noise of the input stage. And, this noise is only audible at night, on a calm quiet night, ear directly up to the tweeter. Take into account my home is in a rural area, on 3 acres, with virtually no neighbors, at 9,300'. There is also only one road, with no traffic at night, within a mile of my house. It is much quieter here than anywhere with neighbors, or roads with cars, or other people around talking, or anywhere in a suburban or urban environment.
After much thought, I am going to do this build the Hypex way: no AC ground connection (I float my other components as well in respect to AC ground) with secure, and double insulated internal high voltage AC wiring, pin 1(s) direct to chassis through a very short 20 awg wire, nCore input cable shield direct to chassis at a different point than pin 1, but very close to the XLR jack. I will also remove anodizing/paint from the chassis sections until there is relatively low resistance continuity between the chassis panels, this may provide a little bit of shielding from the outside world, but not really. Considering the ~1 uF of C directly at the input of the SMPS600s (two of them) I will also place a .01uF cap at the IEC for a little bit of added high frequency filtering. If this build results in any "problems", then I may re-visit other possible solutions. I am also considering transformer coupling for the output of my DAC, as this may solve a couple of (very small) problems, and then connecting only the "ground" (actually the shield) of the transformer to pin 1 of the DAC output. When the build is done, I will post a couple of pics in the approriate thread.
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from diyaudio.com ncore thread:
#5637
Julf is online now Julf Europe
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
"Mine are dead quiet too as they should be."
"Indeed - with a specified 124 dB SNR, pretty much any noise is an indication of some sort of abnormal issue."
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If it helps any I also hear nothing but total silence from all of my speakers with the Ncore, even with my ear up against the tweeter, well not until I press play that is :thumb:
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from diyaudio.com ncore thread:
#5637
Julf is online now Julf Europe
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
"Mine are dead quiet too as they should be."
"Indeed - with a specified 124 dB SNR, pretty much any noise is an indication of some sort of abnormal issue."
Nope, totally wrong. Amsterdam, not exactly a quiet rural area either… Hahaha. I will not be addressing this issue anymore, as apparently some folks just do not get it. The nCore specs have all the answers one would need in the noise output voltage specification.
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Take into account my home is in a rural area, on 3 acres, with virtually no neighbors, at 9,300'. There is also only one road, with no traffic at night, within a mile of my house. It is much quieter here than anywhere with neighbors, or roads with cars, or other people around talking, or anywhere in a suburban or urban environment.
I envy you your acoustic environment! I used to live on 300 acres about 12 miles from the nearest highway in a very quiet loft paneled in acoustic board (we call it Donacona board). When I pressed play on Chesky CDs, I was immediately taken to a not-quite-perfectly-isolated recording studio in New York city. The traffic roar was easily perceptible even though perhaps 60-70dB down. It's amazing what you can hear when it's really quiet!
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Nope, totally wrong. Amsterdam, not exactly a quiet rural area either… Hahaha.
You'd be amazed. We live on the outermost of the inner city canals, far enough from the tourist ghettos of Central Station and Leidseplein, but also far enough of the high-rises and offices further out. Occasional noise from tourist tour boats and bicycle bells on the front side, but on the back side, surrounded by old buildings with thick brick walls, it is really, really quiet. OK, in the spring the blackbird is annoyingly loud...
I will not be addressing this issue anymore, as apparently some folks just do not get it. The nCore specs have all the answers one would need in the noise output voltage specification.
Or the SNR specification... That happens to match the voltage spec. Output noise voltage is specified as 25 uV max, maximum output voltage swing is 40 V. 20 log (0.000025/40) is -124.1 dB.
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Nope, totally wrong. Amsterdam, not exactly a quiet rural area either… Hahaha. I will not be addressing this issue anymore, as apparently some folks just do not get it. The nCore specs have all the answers one would need in the noise output voltage specification.
i, for one, would love to hear if you are able to reduce the noise floor w/any different grounding scheme. yust ignore the parrots. 8)
doug s.
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yust ignore the parrots. 8)
Ah, yes, I did forget to note one of the largest contributions to the noise pollution here - the parrot colony in the park. But they are only an issue when they do their dawn and dusk patrols...
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julf: Glad to hear that you have a quiet spot. I am so used to living where I am at, that I would find it hard to move to a more populated area-I am spoiled! But, unfortunately, I am not sure that I can live here forever, the winter at this elevation can be somewhat tiresome, and in my more advanced years, I anticipate having to move.
I assume the 25 uV of noise would be with shorted inputs, I have some shorting plugs here, so when this current build is done, I will short the inputs and see what I hear. But, if I remember correctly, the noise voltage of my Pass is specced at about 40-50 uV, and its noise floor, listened for at the tweeter, does seem to be about double (or +6dB :) ) that of what I hear from the nCore, so it all makes sense to me...
My reason for exploring other wiring schemes was never in an effort to further reduce the quiescent noise floor, it was an attempt to avoid coupling RF into the system as a whole. One other thing I am eventually going to try is to add some RF damping (not shielding) to the inside of the top cover of the chassis. I am much more a believer of damping, as opposed to shielding as actually being successful at shielding RF seems a thankless task, unless has the funds to go to a fully CNCed from billet aluminum style chassis (or maybe molded carbon fiber/STEALTH), and even then the wiring seems like an awfully good path for RF ingress/egress.
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Barrows: I can definitely relate to the "advancing years" issue - it is something we do discuss. Living in a historic, listed building sounds romantic, until you have to deal with maintenance and endless narrow, steep and twisting stairs :)
As to RF damping / shielding, I am not sure it is an issue worth worrying about too much - just look at the amount of high-end gear that places digital high-speed circuits (and often wireless interfaces) inside the same enclosure as audio circuits.
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Yeah, totally agreed about not worryinbg too much about RF, but it is something I like to play around with. Crystal, carbon and such compounds... I admit that their affects are subtle (if at all).
While I have your ear, I need a tech confirmation. I see the spec showing CM impedence of the nC400 at 1.5Mohm, I assume this means 750Kohm per phase to G? Do I have this right? I need to determine capacitor value for AC coupling a (balanced) DAC's output. If I have it right, I can use very small caps, which would be nice...
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I see the spec showing CM impedence of the nC400 at 1.5Mohm, I assume this means 750Kohm per phase to G?
I assume it is actually 1.5 Mohm from one input (either inverting or non-inverting) to ground. But that doesn't really matter, because you don't reference the signal to ground at all.
I need to determine capacitor value for AC coupling a (balanced) DAC's output. If I have it right, I can use very small caps, which would be nice...
Unfortunately the impedance that is relevant to the coupling capacitors is the differential mode impedance (104 Kohm), as that is the input impedance that your DAC output feeds.
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Oh well, 104K is still pretty decent. I can get away with a 1uF cap then with no worries...
Thanks...
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Just wanted to follow up from a prior post regarding issues I having with my NCores. I'd been away for a couple weeks and wasn't able to get around repairs until recently. An employee at Hypex suggested a possible issue with my speaker posts not being isolated properly. I believe this is where the issue lied. Another problem may have been bad contact due to the binding posts being annealed. Lastly I purchased one of these http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=le1200 suggested by Bavmiike (at diyaudio). In one fell swoop made all changes and hooked them up and they work perfectly. Furthermore I believe the apc voltage regulator has improved them to worthwhile degree. I sexond Bavmiike's observations and recommend it for digital components with SMPSs. Thank you for the suggestions and thought and also thanks to the people of Hypex in their ability to isolate the issue from fairly junky iphone pictures, and also for conceiving these ridonkulously good amplifiers.
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One of my mono block Ncore has started to something odd when I turn it off, it goes off but after a second it goes back on and off real fast 3 or 4 times stays off for a couple of seconds then goes on and off once more real fast and stays off. Anyone have any idea what going on? :scratch: :scratch:
Mike
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One of my mono block Ncore has started to something odd when I turn it off, it goes off but after a second it goes back on and off real fast 3 or 4 times stays off for a couple of seconds then goes on and off once more real fast and stays off. Anyone have any idea what going on? :scratch: :scratch:
Mike
Are the LEDs on the whole time or do they go off & on too? Have you contacted Hypex?
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The Leds go on and off and I can hear the relays clicking on and off also. I send an E-mail to Hypex
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I played a classical CD with little bass energy at moderate level. Then I switched to Knotting Hill soundtrack, heavily equalized and compressed, with loud synth-augmented bass line. Knotting Hill was several dB louder, especially in the bass, with high energy two octaves lower than the prior CD.
Major overload of Ncores and/or main speakers or both (main are Dynaudio Esotec 170mm mid bass and Estotec D260 dome, two each per channel, active high-pass 2nd order @ 80 Hz). The sub amp clips 5 dB below the main system, so I'm sure it clipped badly too.
Woah! The resulting cacophony was a physical and emotional shock! Like the worst LP scratches you ever heard but worse, with awful transient crackle. Best comparison is aluminum foil crinkled at excruciating level. I was wondering how many costly drivers blew, but thank God after several seconds all seemed fine.
Kudos to Bruno's protection circuits! Kudos to Dynaudio power handling! But still, don't make that mistake with Ncore!
Remote control bass level (below 70 Hz) contributed to my error. If music program has little energy below 70 Hz there is no aural indication when the bass level is advanced. I sure knew when I changed the CD!
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The Leds go on and off and I can hear the relays clicking on and off also. I send an E-mail to Hypex
Sounds like a power supply issue. I'd not use it and just wait for Hypex to respond.
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Does anyone know how quickly Hypex respond to e-mails, I sent them e-mail 2 days ago about power supply problem and haven't heard back.
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They're usually pretty quick.
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Got a reply from Hypex, the problem was the L and N wires were backwards at the IEC, swapped them around problem solved.
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What preamps are everyone using with their ncore amps?
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None. I have no use for a preamp, all they do is add distortion and noise.
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Solid State Preamps and NCore (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110064.0)
Passive Preamps with NCore (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108473.0)
Tube Preamps and NCore (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=109032.0)
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None. I have no use for a preamp, all they do is add distortion and noise.
Of course opinions vary on the importance of preamps. A perennial topic of debate on audio forums. As with most things, best to listen for yourself in your system to make up your mind, according to your preferences.
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Yes, I did listen. And was able to sell my Ayre K5-XEmp (a very good unit and highly recommended for anyone who needs a pre amp). If one uses a single source with a good method of controlling volume and a good output stage, adding a preamp will only make the system less accurate. As long as folks accept and understand that under the above circumstances adding a preamp is adding distortion, then I am fine if they prefer the resulting sound.
But ultimately, if accurate music reproduction is the goal, having the minimum (to get the job done, notably controlling volume as transparently as possible and driving the interconnects and input stage of the amplifier optimally) amount of parts in the signal is desirable.
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Let's not go down this road barrows. I never suggested that you didn't listen.
But to each his or her own. I too listened, and the kW preamp stays (thanks to better dynamics and oomph). For a long, long time I imagine.
Points made and back to the topic of the thread.
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What preamps are everyone using with their ncore amps?
My 2 cents- I use an Audio-GD C-3 preamp. This peamp to me has the same attributes as the amp- wide range, squeaky clean transparent, and killer dynamics. I'm very happy with the match, and the price is very right. I've used 3 preamps so far with my NC- Cullen modded PS Audio Gain Cell GCC-500, Bel Canto Pre3, and the Audio-GD (last 2 in balanced mode) . The latter wins on every count.
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What preamps are everyone using with their ncore amps?
Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE. Fully balanced and works very well with ncore monos, imo.
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Only reason I'd add a preamp would be to get some sort of DSP functionality.
Actually the devices I'm considering (Metric Halo LIO8, Hypex DLCP, Lyngdorf DPA1 etc.) are more DACs than preamps, but let's not get hung up on semantics. :green:
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Only reason I'd add a preamp would be to get some sort of DSP functionality.
Actually the devices I'm considering (Metric Halo LIO8, Hypex DLCP, Lyngdorf DPA1 etc.) are more DACs than preamps, but let's not get hung up on semantics. :green:
FYI
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110698.msg1143571#msg1143571
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FYI
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110698.msg1143571#msg1143571
A true bargain!
Not ready to take the plunge yet (financially, for the most part), but I'm surprised this has been available for so long.
People are probably not aware of the performance and features this baby offers.
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Mike, in the event that you're still following, with regards to your issue of the amps turning back on. That's the exact issue I was having. After trying various configurations with input grounding and not having any luck, I got in touch with Hypex. They suggested a possible issue with binding post isolaton (the bare metal of my speaker posts was touching the chassis). Another suggestion was bad contact due to the annealed surface of the posts. Lastly, voltage dips could be the issue. Anyway, to fix all three possible culprits I put in new binding posts and started using one of these: http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=le1200. Upon doing so the issue went away completely. That being said, I'm not sure where the problem lies. I'd start with checking the speaker posts and the connection to the amp (make sure the gold screws are tight).
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Milezone, thanks for info, I don't think regulator would help as I have good a/c, as I live off the grid, also I have mono blocks and only one is doing it. I'll check the speaker out put wires but they are soldered direct to the terminals so I don't think thats it. I use my binding post only as a clamp to clamp out put wire to speaker cables so I don't see how there could be a problem with isolation. The only thing I think it might be a bad ground. Here are a couple of pics of speaker connections.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72163)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72164)
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OK we're getting into ghosts and gremlins now, with further playing around I found that the problem only happen when amp is powered by my dedicated circuit but not on any other circuit, but the other mono block works fine on either???? :scratch:
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Are your IEC plugs / mains inlets grounded exactly the same in both?
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Are the metal sleeves from the binding post touching the case? It's hard to tell when I zoom in but there needs to be no contact between them and the case...the plastic from the CPBP should be the insulator.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=72163)
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What preamps are everyone using with their ncore amps?
Atma-Sphere MP-1 tubed preamp.
Great match!!
George
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Atma-Sphere MP-1 tubed preamp.
Great match!!
George
Have those NCores taken over the amp spot from the MA-1's yet?
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Have those NCores taken over the amp spot from the MA-1's yet?
I sold the MA-1's and have been using the NCores exclusively.
While the NCores are great, I still miss the MA-1's. Each amp has its own strengths and weaknesses.
George
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I sold the MA-1's and have been using the NCores exclusively.
While the NCores are great, I still miss the MA-1's. Each amp has its own strengths and weaknesses.
George
:thumb:
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Yes, I did listen. And was able to sell my Ayre K5-XEmp (a very good unit and highly recommended for anyone who needs a pre amp). If one uses a single source with a good method of controlling volume and a good output stage, adding a preamp will only make the system less accurate. As long as folks accept and understand that under the above circumstances adding a preamp is adding distortion, then I am fine if they prefer the resulting sound.
But ultimately, if accurate music reproduction is the goal, having the minimum (to get the job done, notably controlling volume as transparently as possible and driving the interconnects and input stage of the amplifier optimally) amount of parts in the signal is desirable.
One of my better listening experiences was to a Yello LP via PS Audio GCPH balanced direct into Ncore
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Is anyone connecting the "stand by" wire of the power supply to the chassis ground, like the nAMPON wire? Is there a benefit or disadvantage to having both connected to chassis?
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Is anyone connecting the "stand by" wire of the power supply to the chassis ground, like the nAMPON wire? Is there a benefit or disadvantage to having both connected to chassis?
No benefit in connecting the SMPS Standby to ground.
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Having problem with the power switch.
Hi. I built monoblock NC400. On each case, I put a on/off switch. The main power is 220V AC. I didn't connect the ground of inlet to the chassis(as manual recommends).
The problem is , when the power cord is properly connected to the inlet, It works fine. But, when I plugged the power cord changing the direction, so the hot line and cold line is swithced, the power switch doesn't work properly. The symptom is like this. When I switch it off by pushing the butten, after a second or less, the amp keeps turning on and off about 5~6 times a second. And the turning on and off gets slow and finally the amp is turned off in a few seconds.
It seems that it keeps turning on and off until the capacitors are are discharged. when the hot line and cold line is connected right, the amp is turned off instantly not turing itself on again. Only when I change the direction of the plug on the powerstrip, changing the hot and cold of the inlet brings such symptom. It matters because I have to check up the hot and cold everytime I move the amps and plug the cables again. At first, I was scared when they(mono blocks) kept turning on and off very fast, thinking that it might damage the relays of the SMPS module. So, I instantly turned of the main switch of the powerstrip immediately. Later,, I neglected doing that,, and my SMPS doesn't work.
I had to send one of the SMPS for RMA. I sent it about a month ago, and it's still under 'consept'. I expected to get it back within 18 days like they say on the Hypex homepage. I sent an Email asking how to pay for RMA cost and when to get it back. No reply yet. :x
Can anyone help me with adjusting this problem please? I attach some of the pics of my monos..
P.S I inserted resister to adjust the voltage of Aux power to supply power for switch LED.
the link of swith I used for Ncore:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Waterproof-Light-Push-Button-Switch-L22-Dia-22mm-Stainless-steel/496350721.html
(http://[img]http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=73099)
(http://[img]http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=73100)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=73101)
[/img][/img]
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Sorry.. the pictures are not inserted well.. I put some more pictures here again..
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=73102)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=73103)
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Can't really make out the wiring from the pics - can you explain exactly how you wired up the switch?
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I had the same problem with one of my mono Ncores and it was the load and neutral wires were wired backwards at the IEC, when I rewire the it the problem was fixed.
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I had the same problem with one of my mono Ncores and it was the load and neutral wires were wired backwards at the IEC, when I rewire the it the problem was fixed.
But for that to make a difference, you also have to have one of the mains wires connected to something else than just the SMPS600 mains inputs. Chassis? Ground? And if so, why?
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That was not the case in my situation, and I was told by the tech guy at Hypex that just having the wires backward would cause that problem. It didn't make sense to me either, but when I switched the wires the problem went away. :scratch:
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:scratch: indeed!
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Thanks guys for leaving me the comments.
I emailed to hypex and got the message saying "This is a known problem and it occurs only in some instances. The solution would be to mount a double pole switch."
Just rewiring the load and neutral of the inlet couldn't be the solution for me. Because, When I move the monos, or lend them to my friend, If I don't check the polarity of the powerstrip, the same problem would occur again. Moreover, if my friend doesn't have the tester, he can't tell which is the load and the neutral. Rewiring the load and neutral is as good as changing the direction of the powercod, isn't it?
Sorry for my poor pics ^^
Brown line is wired to the load(or hot?), Blue line is wired to the neutral(cold?). I didn't connected the ground of the mains to the chassis(I actually wired but taped the end of the wire because the manual recommends not to wire the ground to the chassis). later on, let me put up more detailed, clear pics. For now there seems to be no solution except these -1. using double pole switch, 2. checking out the direction of the power cord everytime I reconnect. 3. Not using the switch ^^
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For now there seems to be no solution except these -1. using double pole switch, 2. checking out the direction of the power cord everytime I reconnect. 3. Not using the switch
One solution would be to have a double pole relay driven by your current switch.
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In 2 weeks i will have money to order for nc400...keeping the finger crossed...took a while to get this fund up and running but able to get it now....if i am right roughly per channel it's gonna cost around 1500-1600 for a stereo.....
V
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if i am right roughly per channel it's gonna cost around 1500-1600 for a stereo.....
V
:scratch: How's that?
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:scratch: How's that?
just asking...after doing rough calculations....including case + binders etc....amp and smps and euro conversion rate lol
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if i am right roughly per channel it's gonna cost around 1500-1600 for a stereo.....
V
My single chassis dual mono (2 modules and 2 PS) cost about $1800 total to build. I used a prebuilt chassis, so assembly took 5 hours. A second chassis and IEC socket should add a couple hun. max, I would think. Of course you COULD spend a lot more, but I don't think it gets you proportionately better sound. Most designs posted here are not gold plated, yet sound terrific.
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just asking...after doing rough calculations....including case + binders etc....amp and smps and euro conversion rate lol
You should be able to build them for about $2k. This is if you don't go nutty with a chassis.
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You should be able to build them for about $2k. This is if you don't go nutty with a chassis.
Ok, then adding another week for saving to reach 2k....if some one selling there amps if you guys upgraded to nc1200 i guess then i wont mind buying...
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Do it vv, totally worth it.
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Do it vv, totally worth it.
yup, AFter months beyond questions changed do i want it or not to....when i am getting this now ...hopefully soon....
V
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I know this is a bit of a silly question, but can you buy these already assembled?
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I know this is a bit of a silly question, but can you buy these already assembled?
Not from Hypex.
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I know this is a bit of a silly question, but can you buy these already assembled?
3rd parties will. Look in the Industry Ads section of this forum.
Best,
Anand.
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Anyone try NCore's with Salk HT3's? HT3's are power hungry and I'm interested in if they're able to drive them and, if so, how well they perform.
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Not the Salks, but I'm using a pair of NC400 to drive a pair of Eminent Technology LFT-IVs at 80db/1watt/1m.
I'm in a small-ish room of roughly 14' x 16' x 9'. And I haven't felt any need for more power, even in comparision with the amps they replaced, a pair of B&O IcePower 1000ASP amps that are rated 1000w-4ohm.
They are doing the job for me!
Greg in Mississippi
Edit: Updated speaker efficiency & room size.
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Anyone try NCore's with Salk HT3's? HT3's are power hungry and I'm interested in if they're able to drive them and, if so, how well they perform.
I use mine with Selah Tempestas, around 86db/w/m and 4 ohms. They have tons of power and current drive. I've never come close to distorting the amps. I have no doubt they would push the Salks just fine, and sound great doing so.
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Anyone try NCore's with Salk HT3's? HT3's are power hungry and I'm interested in if they're able to drive them and, if so, how well they perform.
"Maxcast" has heard the NC400's on his HT-3's. See here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1106110#msg1106110
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Just wanted to ask how are these with around 86db sensitivity speaker.....
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Just wanted to ask how are these with around 86db sensitivity speaker.....
No problem.
Did you see this thread? http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.0
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I have 81dB current-hungry speakers and there is no issue, in fact I have stopped using subs for 2-channel due to the incredible bass control of the NCore.
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Thanks for the feedback and link to the Salk comments (missed that one). Looks like I need to try them out with my HT3's :thumb:
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Thanks for the feedback and link to the Salk comments (missed that one). Looks like I need to try them out with my HT3's :thumb:
You might post where you're at and maybe someone has a pair that you can try.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108203.0
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What is the input sensitivity of the ncores, I thought it was 26db's, I also have a pair of CI D200's which also have 26db's sensitivity, but with the ncores I have to turn up the volume about 2 db's.
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What is the input sensitivity of the ncores, I thought it was 26db's, I also have a pair of CI D200's which also have 26db's sensitivity, but with the ncores I have to turn up the volume about 2 db's.
You mean voltage gain. Not input sensitivity. In any case, 2 dB difference is peanuts and one shouldn't worry about it, imho.
The voltage gain for the NCore 400 is indeed 26 dB. This is detailed in their pdf file : http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
See Mike Galusha's response here for a detailed understanding of the difference between input sensitivity and voltage gain:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105438.msg1117228#msg1117228
But to blunt...don't worry...please :D
Anand.
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You mean voltage gain. Not input sensitivity.
Yes, thanks for the link.
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And, just to be sure, that means input voltage for full rated output is 2 V.
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Any test audio recommend for this amp
I plan to listen at very low level at around 50db at night
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Any test audio recommend for this amp
Music you like. :)
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Music you like. :)
Coming from you for THIS specific amp creates a lot of weight :)
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Just whatever you have will sound better, whatever was your reference before will be your reference now. And yes, they will knock your socks off at 50dB at night. Absolutely amazing. It's like a hint of what a fully treated room would be like at louder levels, which would be mindbending, I can't wait to finally get there.
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Just whatever you have will sound better, whatever was your reference before will be your reference now. And yes, they will knock your socks off at 50dB at night. Absolutely amazing. It's like a hint of what a fully treated room would be like at louder levels, which would be mindbending, I can't wait to finally get there.
True dat
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How much time does it take to get the nc400 from hypex if you order today
V
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How much time does it take to get the nc400 from hypex if you order today
V
Based on my experience, just a few days. Shipping to the states is very fast. I don't know the current state of their inventory, though.
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Ordered a pair of Nc400 that hopefully can fit in with a current pair of Ncore ....i already ordered ... a pair of
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221121386018
also have cardas binding post....anything i need to order ....my current amp pics are here...already talked to Mike he says it can be fitted....is it possivle to order a new back plate with new holes....any idea where i can order those from....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=74527)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=74528)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=74529)
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Ordered a pair of Nc400 that hopefully can fit in with a current pair of Ncore ....i already ordered ... a pair of
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221121386018
also have cardas binding post....anything i need to order ....my current amp pics are here...already talked to Mike he says it can be fitted....is it possivle to order a new back plate with new holes....any idea where i can order those from....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=74527)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=74528)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=74529)
No replies....
V
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What are you asking for?
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What are you asking for?
simple
can someone drill holes in the backpalte of current amp so i can add one more XLR inout and also holes for Cardass binding post as i plan to add extra NC400 in each of the amp i just put pic on.
Also do i need to buy an additional wife to share the SMPS between two NC400....
V
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simple
can someone drill holes in the backpalte of current amp so i can add one more XLR inout and also holes for Cardass binding post as i plan to add extra NC400 in each of the amp i just put pic on.
You don't own a drill?
Also do i need to buy an additional wife to share the SMPS between two NC400....
V
If you want to share the SMPS with two NC400's you would need to modify the umbilical. Very simple to do as you just keep the same colors and splice (solder and heatshrink).
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You don't own a drill?
If you want to share the SMPS with two NC400's you would need to modify the umbilical. Very simple to do as you just keep the same colors and splice (solder and heatshrink).
Thank you for answering....
V
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You may want to buy a used drill press, which is what I did to make some new holes in my enclosure. A hand drill can be hard to control when working with metal.
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You may want to buy a used drill press, which is what I did to make some new holes in my enclosure. A hand drill can be hard to control when working with metal.
not possible to keep that in a one bedroom NYC apt :D....
V
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You don't own a drill?
If you want to share the SMPS with two NC400's you would need to modify the umbilical. Very simple to do as you just keep the same colors and splice (solder and heatshrink).
is there any place i can buy this umbilical....just thought i ask...
V
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You may want to buy a used drill press, which is what I did to make some new holes in my enclosure. A hand drill can be hard to control when working with metal.
i used a hand drill to drill out a few cases for another project, perfectly doable, but definitely not easy!
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s87/ufokillerz/IMG_20130126_180240copy_zpsa6b0ffbb.jpg)
rear panels are 3mm, front panel is 10mm thick. just need to get yourself the proper drill bits. most people use step drill bits.
i used some annular drill bits with my cordless drill which made it a breeze. these are the ones you want to use, the ones with a center drill bit attached are awesome, i punched the case once with a punch then it guided my drill bit through then the annular part got to cutting.
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is there any place i can buy this umbilical....just thought i ask...
V
Not that I know of. You can ask Hypex though.
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is there any place i can buy this umbilical....just thought i ask...
There has been talk about one every now and then, but as far as I know there still isn't a ready-made one available. As jtwrace stated, it is very easy to make one yourself. The nc400/smps600 is intended for DIY hobbyists after all... :)
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can some one point me where some one has connected Two nc400 to one smps for wiring purpose....i tried looking but couldnt find it...
V
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HTH
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=75166)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=75261)
Hi guys
I was testing the connections of my build just now, and realize J5 actually is connected to 1s at the rear side/heat sink, and with the screws connecting between the case and 1s, thus the J5 is then connected to the case grounding, which doesn't make sense to me. Can anyone explain why did Hypex design it this way?
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Which way is J5 connected to the heat sink?
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I used a multi meter test the connection between (1)/m3 and J5, and they are connected, as in current can pass through. hmm :?:
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Not sure it is a good idea to go around probing with a multimeter. So your measurements are with a nc400 that is not connected to anything in any way?
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nothing. just the module itself.
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I am a bit reluctant to check on one of my nc400's, as I have learned (the hard way) not to subject delicate electronics to the voltage of a multimeter on a resistance range. I know Bruno commented something on diyaudio about how the heat sink could be connected, but I can't find it right now...
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I can confirm that observation. I'm not sure why it was designed that way, however.
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Hi,
Built my nCores a few days ago (nc400 V4). When done I did some resistance (Ohm) measurements.
Discovered that there was a connection between the negative speaker binding post and the chassis on both amplifiers. Disassembled both since I thought I had made some mistakes mounting the binding posts. When disconnecting the negative cable from the nc400 there was no connection between chassis and negative binding post.
Made similar measurements on my other (ShengYa A17CS) amplifier, no connection between chassis and binding posts.
A bit strange this me thinking.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=75264)
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yes, that was exactly what happened to my set up too. I thought the bindings had contacts to the case.
nice built btw!
Hi,
Built my nCores a few days ago (nc400 V4). When done I did some resistance (Ohm) measurements.
Discovered that there was a connection between the negative speaker binding post and the chassis on both amplifiers. Disassembled both since I thought I had made some mistakes mounting the binding posts. When disconnecting the negative cable from the nc400 there was no connection between chassis and negative binding post.
Made similar measurements on my other (ShengYa A17CS) amplifier, no connection between chassis and binding posts.
A bit strange this me thinking.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=75264)
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A tip to all you NC400 builders: place a shield between the power supply and the amp module. Really, it's a big difference(!) The sound is quite a bit more realistic, clear, less noise. Didn't think of it earlier, just though I'd make one like in the NC1200 demo amp of Hypex's. But once tested without, there is no question the shield has to stay.
I've wondered why people say that amps like Veritas and Atsah are said to sound better than the DIY stuff - even though Bruno states the NC400 to be at least equal to the NC1200. I think little tweaks like this make a big part of the difference. Proper power cord to the SMPS, short signal input cable, robust enough cable to the speaker terminals, shielding between power supply and amp - things that cost basically nothing but give great benefits. You should at least try. 8)
Btw. also tried a couple of different "better" inlets (Furutech, plain copper etc.). To me the basic 3€ inlet gives the most organic and relaxed sound. So everything "better" doesn't sound better. Of coarse things (system balance) may change when different upstream components are intoduct to the system - like Triode Wire Lab power cables. We'll see. :wink:
- Jugi
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My take - although the input signal cable here is still long for testing purposes.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=74910)
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A tip to all you NC400 builders: place shield between the power supply and the amp model. Really, it's a big difference(!) The sound is quite a bit more realistic, clear, less noise. Didn't think of it earlier, just though I'd make one like in the NC1200 demo am of Hypex's. But once tested without, there is on question the shield has to stay.
I've wondered why people say that amps like Veritas and Atsah are said to sound better than the DIY stuff - even though Bruno states the NC400 to be at least equal to the NC1200. I think little tweaks like this make a big part of the difference. Proper power cord to the SMPS, short signal input cable, robust enough cable to the speaker terminals, shielding between power supply and amp - things that cost basically nothing but give great benefits. You should at least try. 8)
Btw. also tried a couple of different "better" inlets (Furutech, plain copper etc.). To me the basic 3€ inlet gives the most organic and relaxed sound. So everything "better" doesn't sound better. Of coarse things (system balance) may change when different upstream components are intoduct to the system - like Triode Wire Lab power cables. We'll see. :wink:
- Jugi
Is there a rule of thumb for how thick the shielding has to be? Are steel and aluminum equally effective?
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Is there a rule of thumb for how thick the shielding has to be? Are steel and aluminum equally effective?
Don't really know. Just tested it with the 5mm aluminium sheet I have.
- Jugi
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The Veritas has a thick aluminum slab between the modules. It is not routed-out from the block so it also allows for a middle screw on the bottom-plate which makes the amp very solid.
I also find the Veritas to sound better than the NC400s. Usual my system, my ears, etc.
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less noise.
How many dB?
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So that is the great NC1200 difference. Not sure what you mean by noise in a noiseless amp though. I'll go to Home Depot on my next day off and get some aluminum and a hack saw to see what's up here.
Hmmmmm. I could try with layers of foil right now..
....busy folding it to the right size...
.... I don't hear any difference whatsoever.. still the same gorgeous sound as before..
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Not sure what you mean by noise in a noiseless amp though.
Noise in a general sense. Not noise coming from the speakers when idle, but music coming from a blacker background. Or like another AudioCircle mate nicely put it: "A clearer sounding and more detailed presentation of the music".
- Jukka
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Noise in a general sense. Not noise coming from the speakers when idle, but music coming from a blacker background.
Ah. To an engineer, "noise" actually implies something that can be measured.
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Well Julf, I think it's you making the biggest noise here - had a look at your other posts too...
You just have to poke at every comment that your "know everything, right about everything, prove me every thing" engineer self accentuating self-esteem can't quite grasp upon. You are over 50 years old. Why do you act like a teenager?
If you don't have anything constructive to say, why say anything at all? Let other people do as they like and practice this hobby as they wish - it's nothing away from you.
But as I'm afraid you just can't let go and change your behavior, I'm saying in advance that from now on I'm just going to ignore your posts.
- Jugi
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Jugi,
Could we please focus on the issue at hand instead of resorting to personal attacks?
Audio electronics is a branch of electronics. Electronics is an applied science, as practised by engineers. Amplifiers and other pieces of electronics are developed by following sound engineering practices and the scientific method. An essential part of that method is isolating and verifying claims objectively - until you do that, you can not be sure the problem you are trying to solve even exists.
People have made claims about audible differences between the NC400 and the NC1200, as well as bridged and unbridged NC400's, different power supplies and various grounding/EMC protection/isolation practices. We are all interested in those differences. Why do you have an issue in trying to isolate and verify those claims beyond vague subjective descriptions of impressions under uncontrolled conditions? One would imagine we are all interested in finding out the real facts.
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Don't really know. Just tested it with the 5mm aluminium sheet I have.
- Jugi
try copper plates @ 2.6mm (at least) thick, grounded. They work much better than Alu/SS. Ideally CF is a much better material for EMI shielding but those specially made CF sheets are hard to access. They tend to be used on satellites, aircrafts or other military purpose.
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stupid question do we need any soldering iron while assembling this amp?....
V
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Yes for the xlr connectors and speaker binding posts (although I guess there are workarounds for both).
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Yes for the xlr connectors and speaker binding posts (although I guess there are workarounds for both).
i dont have an soldering iron so wanted to ask people....
V
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The Veritas has a thick aluminum slab between the modules.
Thanks for the info! =)
try copper plates @ 2.6mm (at least) thick, grounded. They work much better than Alu/SS. Ideally CF is a much better material for EMI shielding but those specially made CF sheets are hard to access. They tend to be used on satellites, aircrafts or other military purpose.
I'll try that - or something similar using copper. Maybe copper foil around the aluminium sheet to begin with.
Thanks! =)
- Jugi
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Hello can anyone please tell me what the included cable lengths are that come with the NC400/SMPS600 kits? Specifically, I'm interested in knowing how long the cable bundle is that connects the SMPS600 to the Amp Module as well as the Mains cable that connects to the SMPS from the IEC Input.
By my rough guesstimation the SMPS to Amp cable bundle looks to be about 8.5" long (end to end)? Not sure why this info isn't listed in any of the documentation anywhere. :banghead:
Since we are dealing with pre-terminated bundles I think this is a key piece of information to know while in the enclosure sizing and component layout phase of a build.
Also, has anyone "Shortened" the 12 wire bundle that connects the SMPS to the Amp or is that considered a No, No?
Thanks
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Hello can anyone please tell me what the included cable lengths are that come with the NC400/SMPS600 kits?
These are the ones that came with my (early) batch:
- Mains input cable (open ends to J3 on SMPS600): 290 mm
- Aux & Control (open ends to J1 on SMPS600): 200 mm
- Amplifier connection (J2 on SMPS to J7 on NC400): 185 mm
- Amplifier connection (J2/J7 to open end): 490 mm
- Audio input (J9 on NC400 to open end): 480 mm
So note there are 2 cables for the amplifier-smps connection - one with connectors at both ends, and one with a connector at one end and open at the other.
Conversion into arcane pre-imperial measurements left as an exercise for people in Liberia, Burma and the US :)
By my rough guesstimation the SMPS to Amp cable bundle looks to be about 8.5" long (end to end)? Not sure why this info isn't listed in any of the documentation anywhere.
Well, my measurements are actual cable length, not including connectors. From end of connector to end of connector the cable bundle is 210 mm, so your estimate is not too badly off (8.5" is 216 mm).
Since we are dealing with pre-terminated bundles I think this is a key piece of information to know while in the enclosure sizing and component layout phase of a build.
It is usually better to get the physical components before going through the layout phase to avoid surprises.
Also, has anyone "Shortened" the 12 wire bundle that connects the SMPS to the Amp or is that considered a No, No?
No reason why you can't shorten them - but it is a hassle unless you intend to redo the connectors. Some of us have made 3-plug Y cables to feed 2 NC400's from one SMPS - works just fine.
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Thanks for the info dude, much appreciated :thumb:
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Been looking as a maniac for a chassi for a ncore build, i want a black faceplate 5-10mm thick not the very common silver ones. The only one i found is Galaxy M GX288 but are there others? I want the faceplate to be clear for my own machining.
I will start with a single module/power supply but i thinking of upgrade to bridged one is i like it. What size os chassi is recommended both for a slim build with a single module/power and for a bridged module with 1 or 2 power modules? Width, depth, height?
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I also find the Veritas to sound better than the NC400s. Usual my system, my ears, etc.
Can you eloborate? How is the sound better?
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Been looking as a maniac for a chassi for a ncore build, i want a black faceplate 5-10mm thick not the very common silver ones. The only one i found is Galaxy M GX288 but are there others? I want the faceplate to be clear for my own machining.
I will start with a single module/power supply but i thinking of upgrade to bridged one is i like it. What size os chassi is recommended both for a slim build with a single module/power and for a bridged module with 1 or 2 power modules? Width, depth, height?
My personal experience is very good dealing with Siliconray chassis in China. Extremely reliable. I picked a chassis Jason used and did pencil/graph paper design for one ps/one amp module. Member TrungT (thanks again!) made CNC program from my drawings, emailed his CNC program to Sr, who now stocks chassis by my name.
HtCoz (Robert) might have dual mono chassis, comprising exact same four components as your above described bridged dual-ps mono block. Robert seems excellent to deal with. Alternately maybe you could do like I did above. It was kind of a fun exercise (see thread somewhere in this circle). Warning: you must absolutely confirm ID for base plate prior to design. And you must have all four components in hand to insure physical fit on the graph paper, which will be much larger than 8.5 x 11 for your chassis. I estimate cost for your pre-cut chassis $150-200. Your design is good because it works for everything from normal stereo/single PS/single posts to dual mono stereo/single post (same components as bridged/dual PS mono block/biwire posts). Users could start with one normal stereo amp then later add a second power supply (dual mono), then later still add a second chassis (regular mono blocks), then two more amp modules (bridged) then finally, two more power supplies (bridged dual PS). A continuous upgrade path from the crummy (sarc) lowest cost stereo to maximum NC800BDPS (bridged dual PS). Sweet!
I might consider re-doing another chassis as you describe but TrungT or someone else must agree to do the CAD work.
Warning: Sr has MOQ of 20, so no sale till 20 chassis are pre-paid.
I'll tell you one thing about the Apex Jr. binding posts I picked. There may well be better sounding posts, but I've got huge fingers and hands (like my friend at work used to say about me, big hands, big feet, two of three isn't bad). I tried many different speaker cables and torqued the posts many times. The posts have such huge nuts and so much surface contact area with chassis that the post stays torqued and does not swivel even with heavy use.
Best wishes on your project.
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50 years ago in school they told us to prepare to say good bye to the god-forsaken "Imperial" unit of measure. Slow, maybe?
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My personal experience is very good dealing with Siliconray chassis in China. Extremely reliable. I picked a chassis Jason used and did pencil/graph paper design for one ps/one amp module. Member TrungT (thanks again!) made CNC program from my drawings, emailed his CNC program to Sr, who now stocks chassis by my name.
HtCoz (Robert) might have dual mono chassis, comprising exact same four components as your above described bridged dual-ps mono block. Robert seems excellent to deal with. Alternately maybe you could do like I did above. It was kind of a fun exercise (see thread somewhere in this circle). Warning: you must absolutely confirm ID for base plate prior to design. And you must have all four components in hand to insure physical fit on the graph paper, which will be much larger than 8.5 x 11 for your chassis. I estimate cost for your pre-cut chassis $150-200. Your design is good because it works for everything from normal stereo/single PS/single posts to dual mono stereo/single post (same components as bridged/dual PS mono block/biwire posts). Users could start with one normal stereo amp then later add a second power supply (dual mono), then later still add a second chassis (regular mono blocks), then two more amp modules (bridged) then finally, two more power supplies (bridged dual PS). A continuous upgrade path from the crummy (sarc) lowest cost stereo to maximum NC800BDPS (bridged dual PS). Sweet!
I might consider re-doing another chassis as you describe but TrungT or someone else must agree to do the CAD work.
Warning: Sr has MOQ of 20, so no sale till 20 chassis are pre-paid.
I'll tell you one thing about the Apex Jr. binding posts I picked. There may well be better sounding posts, but I've got huge fingers and hands (like my friend at work used to say about me, big hands, big feet, two of three isn't bad). I tried many different speaker cables and torqued the posts many times. The posts have such huge nuts and so much surface contact area with chassis that the post stays torqued and does not swivel even with heavy use.
Best wishes on your project.
Robert apparently no longer sells his dual mono case and referred me to Kevin at Enclosures and Cases who still makes his design, mine took five weeks or so, cost $220. info@enclosuresandcasesinc.com
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And it isn't even imperial - the US adopted the old British units *before* the Brits standardized the imperial units. These days it is only Liberia, Burma and the United States that don't use metric - and even in the US, metric is used in science, aerospace and engineering.
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Why did Robert stop?
Please describe the $220 chassis. Dual mono stereo? How was fit? Did you build it? As per common forum practice, images or it's a lie! :lol:
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Why did Robert stop?
Please describe the $220 chassis. Dual mono stereo? How was fit? Did you build it? As per common forum practice, images or it's a lie! :lol:
for some reason my post got cut short, I have not seen the case as it was shipped directly to Dave (dBe) P. I. Audio who is building it for me, it's dual mono stereo as I said. Black anadoized. Dave's words were 'case is quite nice.
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Dave! Where are you? C'min Dave! Post images now or else! :lol:
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Dave! Where are you? C'min Dave! Post images now or else! :lol:
Robert did not say why no more cases, I did get a face plate from him which I saw, was very nice @$30.
Dave is taking pics for me but may not have the build complete yet.
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Robert did not say why no more cases, I did get a face plate from him which I saw, was very nice @$30.
Dave is taking pics for me but may not have the build complete yet.
I think he just got really busy with his real day job.
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I think he just got really busy with his real day job.
Well....we'll just see what this so-far imaginary dual mono chassis looks like ( :lol:), then we'll consider another chassis design if necessary, and only, of course, if TrungT or some other CNC professional volunteers their services again...
Nothing definite, just an estimate...my guess is Sr price between $180-$200. I'd make sure Sr cut the XLR vertical next time of course. Maybe see about a power switch but I'm really generally against such; just a nuisance. Doesn't JohnR take your "Audiophile" badge if you turn off your digital amp? If you leave for vacation unplug the IEC dude!
BTW, interesting that the Sr IEC definitely gripped with more torque than the PE jobs.
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I will post pics when I get the amp from Dave but could be another couple weeks.
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Topless of course (images).
Oh, also got word from Mike at Siliconray...coming dual mono stereo (same as bridged dual power supply mono block) chassis will have three holes each in top and base for each power supply capacitor (hottest component). Sum total twelve cooling vent holes per chassis (3 holes x 2 capacitors x 1 base + 1 top) adds only $0.60USD to build cost. Sweet!
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Could I use 2 smps 400 power supply instead of 2 smps 600 for mono blocks and what would be the effect.
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Could I use 2 smps 400 power supply instead of 2 smps 600 for mono blocks and what would be the effect.
I have not myself confirmed existence of SMPS400 @ Ncore web shop.
AFAIK a mono block must be bridged (two amp modules) to employ dual ps. Do you reference such amp: bridged/dual ps mono block?
SMPS600 = 600W @ 2 Ohms stereo or 1200W bridged/dual ps. If Ncore is consistent, then SMPS400 = 400W @ 2 Ohms stereo or 800W bridged/dual ps.
Many variables determine the minimum recommended PS (400 or 600). The biggest variable is the partnering loudspeaker minimum load impedance and speaker sensitivity (vastly different methods of testing sensitivity)...lower-impact variables include speaker cable resistance, room volume, listening distance, music program, maximum playback level, speaker power handling, etc. Two different persons in the exact same system and room: one person may require 10x the amplifier power than the other person.
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https://www.hypexshop.com/shop/shop.jsp?groupID=117
Above link lists all Hypex PS including Ncore.
There is sum total one Ncore ps: SMPS600. There is "SMPS400" but such is for UcD line only and not for Ncore. Best I can tell there is no such thing as Ncore SMPS400.
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Hello can anyone please tell me what the included cable lengths are that come with the NC400/SMPS600 kits? Specifically, I'm interested in knowing how long the cable bundle is that connects the SMPS600 to the Amp Module as well as the Mains cable that connects to the SMPS from the IEC Input.
By my rough guesstimation the SMPS to Amp cable bundle looks to be about 8.5" long (end to end)? Not sure why this info isn't listed in any of the documentation anywhere. :banghead:
Since we are dealing with pre-terminated bundles I think this is a key piece of information to know while in the enclosure sizing and component layout phase of a build.
Also, has anyone "Shortened" the 12 wire bundle that connects the SMPS to the Amp or is that considered a No, No?
Thanks
The specs are misleading. The length varies with twists (mandatory) plus required bend between the components. The tighter the twists the less can the wire be bent, which affects maximum spacing.
The only positive thing to do is buy the kit, twist the wires, and connect both ends. Then you can determine appropriate maximum spacing of components. It's a package deal and you can't figure out the limits on paper, period, end of report, it's impossible. IOW, if you need to ask the question, the answer is misleading. I had kit in hand when designing the Siliconray chassis by my name.
Why would someone design a chassis layout without the parts in hand? There is no known reason to do that. It makes no sense, with all due respect.
1. Buy parts
2. After parts arrive, twist cord, plug cord on both ends, design amp layout
If you design a layout without the parts in your hands, and you cut holes, and the parts fit later, either:
you could have increased spacing between the amp and ps, which improves performance, or...
you are insanely lucky
There is no other alternative.
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have anyone tried using Ncore with battery only?...just thought to ask....
V
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Another thing about the umbilical cords. I built eight Ncore so far, six early on and two last week. The later parts are different and frankly the wire bundle did not have consistent wire lengths, obvious after twist. Also, Bruno changed from Mogami input coax to something more difficult to work with.
Again: Without exception it is always and only positively wrong to design a chassis without physical parts in hand. Did I mention don't do that?
Parts change when they change. Bruno same as every manufacturer on earth states clearly everything is always in flux and changes occur anytime. It's quite naive to look at a set of parts (say a friend's for instance) and then design a chassis with those parts, then order your parts, and then find out something is wrong simply because a wire bundle is 3mm shorter than before.
The next batch of our guitar/violin seasoning device I guarantee something will change. It's out of our control. When Bruno signed off on the wire bundle I am absolutely positive there was an acceptable range of variation and that's the way life is when you manufacture stuff.
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have anyone tried using Ncore with battery only?...just thought to ask....
I guess you could go for 8 car batteries to give 2 x 48 V.. Or go for special 48 V telecoms backup batteries, but their capacity is limited.
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have anyone tried using Ncore with battery only?...just thought to ask....
V
I still believe that the Ncores on battery would be the ultimate. Class D sounds so much more open and transparent while being driven with a battery.
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I guess you could go for 8 car batteries to give 2 x 48 V.. Or go for special 48 V telecoms backup batteries, but their capacity is limited.
Ok not possible...i have total of 3 pair of ncore to power my tri amped active speaker...
V
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Ok not possible...i have total of 3 pair of ncore to power my tri amped active speaker...
Well, depending on how loud you play them, you could still get a couple of hours out of the 8 car batteries. Perfect for playing the soundtrack to "Das Boot"...
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Well, depending on how loud you play them, you could still get a couple of hours out of the 8 car batteries. Perfect for playing the soundtrack to "Das Boot"...
will live with normal wall socket.....btw how much is a break in time for ncore
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will live with normal wall socket.....btw how much is a break in time for ncore
I estimate very quick, much quicker than any other amp with which I'm familiar. Estimate 24 hours. It might change thereafter, but not much.
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Ok not possible...i have total of 3 pair of ncore to power my tri amped active speaker...
V
I think there is huge untapped HT market for 3-ch Ncore. If SMPS1200 could power 3x NC400, estimated total cost delivered including 4% US Customs/brokerage fee + $200 build fee is only $1500. Would you guys recommend such an amp to persons shopping for front LCR HT amp?
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I think there is huge untapped HT market for 3-ch Ncore. If SMPS1200 could power 3x NC400, estimated total cost delivered including 4% US Customs/brokerage fee + $200 build fee is only $1500. Would you guys recommend such an amp to persons shopping for front LCR HT amp?
i would have no problems recommending that to someone! i have 3 ncore monoblocks for my HT LCR setup and wished i built them as a single 3channel amplifier.
fyi, if you plan to do it for the HT market, please figure out a 12v trigger hah, that is a big thing for HT folks like me.
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I think there is huge untapped HT market for 3-ch Ncore. If SMPS1200 could power 3x NC400, estimated total cost delivered including 4% US Customs/brokerage fee + $200 build fee is only $1500. Would you guys recommend such an amp to persons shopping for front LCR HT amp?
One SMPS600 seems to be able to power 2 nc400's without problems, so one 1200 for 3 nc's should be just fine.
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One SMPS600 seems to be able to power 2 nc400's without problems, so one 1200 for 3 nc's should be just fine.
Thanks. I agree. I wait for about a week for reply from Hypex regarding this. There is also the problem of a 3-1 umbilical cord. I would not like having to make one, plus it would look worse than OEM, plus it would be less reliable.
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I still believe that the Ncores on battery would be the ultimate. Class D sounds so much more open and transparent while being driven with a battery.
You've got money Tom, make it happen. If you can make Ncores sound better with a battery, I'll order batteries in a second. But it's gotta match the initial measurements and not be 100% subjective.
Myself, even with a battery powered amp (now sitting in the closet), and battery powered pre, I'm HIGHLY skeptical a battery is going to improve these amps.
The Hypex SMPS is just a more advanced technology, my ears are convinced. Never ever ever ever never ever fatiguing, ever. And I listen for it.
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You've got money Tom, make it happen. If you can make Ncores sound better with a battery, I'll order batteries in a second. But it's gotta match the initial measurements and not be 100% subjective.
Myself, even with a battery powered amp (now sitting in the closet), and battery powered pre, I'm HIGHLY skeptical a battery is going to improve these amps.
The Hypex SMPS is just a more advanced technology, my ears are convinced. Never ever ever ever never ever fatiguing, ever. And I listen for it.
A bit off topic - sorry. Tom has been kind enough to include me in the Millenia tour and as you know I own/built a pair of Ncores. Although the comparison will be somewhat flawed primarily due to the large differences in output power between the 2 amplifier designs, I will try my best to match overall gain (since the Millenia has a pot) and then listen for the qualities you mentioned above. But the difference in output power remains. I imagine, even with 95 dB sensitive speakers, it might make a difference. Then there are differences in the implementation, which will be hard to discern,one can only speculate! It would be nice to have a lower powered battery based like Virtue Audio in hand for a more fair comparison. We will see. Overall, whether battery power improves the sound or does not will have to be determined on a case by case basis (both by measurements and listening). Blanket generalizations about SMPS vs. battery are just that - blanket generalizations - again, due to the variability in implementation.
Best,
Anand.
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Myself, even with a battery powered amp (now sitting in the closet),
Yeah, that one has been sitting in my closet for the last 15 months. Just old technology.
You've got money Tom
When I was your age, I never had any money.
I'm HIGHLY skeptical a battery is going to improve these amps.
Yes, I remember when you were very skeptical about getting a battery for the amp in your closet. But since everyone else on that thread were buying and raving about it, you finally bought a battery.
Never ever ever ever never ever fatiguing, ever.
Thank your power company for that. Mine is the pits. But the NC1200's solved 80% of that problem, maybe a better power supply than the NC400's? It would be nice to try those again with this PS Audio Powerbase. It cleaned up 100% with the Stello that I am now using.
I have no inkling on trying any of these high powered Class D amps with a battery(batteries), I would be afraid I would fry myself. I just know what this Millenia MKII Class BD does when I switch to a battery and I can imagine the Ncores or any other high powered Class D amps would improve as much. Maybe a low powered Class D Ncore for the audio industry be the answer? I believe Bruno had mentioned that he was contemplating going into the audio industry ealier.
Anand and several others here has or has heard the Ncores earlier, so those on the MKII tour will hear the difference.
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Ran into an amp builder/upgrader who has looked at the NCore and the SMPS for it. He claims the PS is nothing special and he could put together a MUCH better PS based on good quality off the shelf parts, including Teddy Pardo regulators.
I have no knowledge of these things, what do you guys think?
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Ran into an amp builder/upgrader who has looked at the NCore and the SMPS for it. He claims the PS is nothing special and he could put together a MUCH better PS based on good quality off the shelf parts, including Teddy Pardo regulators.
I have no knowledge of these things, what do you guys think?
Anybody can claim pretty much anything. The Teddy Pardo regulators are linear regulators for reasonably low-power devices such as preamps and DACs.
I suggest you tell him to go ahead and put together his own PS, and ask him to publish ABX results against the smps600.
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Ran into an amp builder/upgrader who has looked at the NCore and the SMPS for it. He claims the PS is nothing special and he could put together a MUCH better PS based on good quality off the shelf parts, including Teddy Pardo regulators.
I have no knowledge of these things, what do you guys think?
I'm quite sure with proper training and the right vehicle, Fred Flintstone could give the current reigning GP Champion fits around a GP circuit...or as Madonna once said several decades ago on SNL before she moved to GB and learned a horrible fake British accent: "Maybe monkeys will fly out my butt."
Possibly the "amp builder/upgrader" to which you refer may know less than he implies.
To owners of properly built NC400: Is NC400 image placement the best you've heard? If yes, quantify the margin of superiority. My answer: yes. I can't quantify the margin because no direct A-B. For me, closest competitors are AKSA Naksa 100, Atma Sphere OTL, Linn Majik (Chakra, which is IC version of Quad's Current Dumping circuit from the 60s-70s).
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To owners of properly built NC400: Is NC400 image placement the best you've heard? If yes, quantify the margin of superiority.
5.7 :)
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Imaging is rock solid and maintains no matter the distance from speakers or seat position. I haven't heard those amps listed but good to know these amps sit at that level.
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I'm quite sure with proper training and the right vehicle, Fred Flintstone could give the current reigning GP Champion fits around a GP circuit...or as Madonna once said several decades ago on SNL before she moved to GB and learned a horrible fake British accent: "Maybe monkeys will fly out my butt."
Possibly the "amp builder/upgrader" to which you refer may know less than he implies.
To owners of properly built NC400: Is NC400 image placement the best you've heard? If yes, quantify the margin of superiority. My answer: yes. I can't quantify the margin because no direct A-B. For me, closest competitors are AKSA Naksa 100, Atma Sphere OTL, Linn Majik (Chakra, which is IC version of Quad's Current Dumping circuit from the 60s-70s).
Again, how much do you charge to build a pair of Ncore 400's?
Jim
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Looking through this thread again, I note that very few builds are using the recomended grounding-scheme from Hypex. Almost everyone is connecting IEC-ground to chassis.
My build is done in that way as well. Some day I will disconnect the IEC-ground and see what happens.
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Looking through this thread again, I note that very few builds are using the recomended grounding-scheme from Hypex. Almost everyone is connecting IEC-ground to chassis.
My build is done in that way as well. Some day I will disconnect the IEC-ground and see what happens.
Please do try it asap and post results. :thumb:
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This looks like something i could do :)
Just have to think of cool case to make..... :D
Do you order the modules and PS's direct or is there another way?
Matt
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Matt,
You have to order direct from Hypex. It sure looks like something you could do based on your other work. They would look awesome I am sure. My cases are ho hum, but for DIY, not bad (for a lawyer anyway). Yours would be amazing.
Shawn
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Can you use a single ended input on these 400 modules?
Matt
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Hypex is the only source for Hypex.
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Matt,
You have to order direct from Hypex. It sure looks like something you could do based on your other work. They would look awesome I am sure. My cases are ho hum, but for DIY, not bad (for a lawyer anyway). Yours would be amazing.
Shawn
Thanks for the reply Shawn!
I thought about doing these last year but never got into it. Really want to give it a go.
I've made a Class D Audio SDS-224 amp and made a few B&O ice 125w amps before that. They run really cool and sound great, i am sure these will be just as good or better.
Hmmm maybe 1/2" or 1" thick plate, what to use :D
Matt
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Hypex is the only source for Hypex.
SiliconRay in China sells two precut Ncore chassis, one mono block smps600, one for stereo or bridged single ps (2x amps + 1x smps1200 ps) or dual mono stereo or bridged dual ps (2x amps + 2x smps400). 1200 ps has 400W higher capacity vs. two 400s.
Unless you're a wizard with metal or wood precut chassis seem like the only way to go.
I'd make my own case.
A case i've made for my phono amp (MM)
(http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n591/mkbenchmark/DSC01139.jpg)
(http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n591/mkbenchmark/DSC01147.jpg)
Matt
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Matt, Really dumb post. And dangerous too. Now everybody is going to want a case from you. I want one and I don't even have anything to put in it. :lol: :thumb:
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Matt, Really dumb post. And dangerous too. Now everybody is going to want a case from you. I want one and I don't even have anything to put in it. :lol: :thumb:
HAHAHA :green:
I know for sure i want to make the case as dummie proof as possible, why? Well all you need to do is drop everything in, wire this, wire that, solder a bit and bam done. Maybe i'll make a few extra cases and could sell em on here (without the modules and such).
Matt
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I'd make my own case.
A case i've made for my phono amp (MM)
(http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n591/mkbenchmark/DSC01139.jpg)
(http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n591/mkbenchmark/DSC01147.jpg)
Matt
Are you going to finally build some? I'd love to get your impressions against your stock XPA-1's.
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Some day I will disconnect the IEC-ground and see what happens.
Just be aware of the safety implications.
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Can you use a single ended input on these 400 modules?
Yes. http://www.hypex.nl/component/weblinks/weblink/24-datasheets/28-nc400-datasheet.html
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Just be aware of the safety implications.
I am puzzled by this. Indeed, one would think risk increases of electrical shock if the case is not earthed.
I presume +V wrongly/accidentally shorted to earthed chassis immediately opens the internal power supply fuse and/or opens my home's circuit breaker, hence no more +V present at chassis to ruin one's day by fire and/or shock.
I was surprised to read Bruno's instructions that unearthed chassis meets electrical wiring code. I ignored his advice to not earth the chassis. I earthed chassis of all eight NC400 I built.
I presume Ncore would not contaminate other components in reasonable proximity, but I also suspect external sources could contaminate Ncore, and that earthed chassis minimizes contamination in both directions.
Possibly, Bruno clearly knows every potential current flow fault, and NC400 and all Hypex power supplies would instantly sense such fault (including +V to chassis) and immediately default to error mode, opening (stopping) the mains current flow. BTW, the protection I describe above may be lacking with non-Hypex power supply.
But this still does not address the potential of outside sources degrading and/or contaminating Ncore, and potential for earthed chassis to minimize such.
If unearthed chassis only improves audio performance with absolutely no increased risk of danger and no increased risk of contamination either direction, then there is every reason to follow Bruno's advice. To the same degree I suspect the first item is true I suspect the last two are not.
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Hypex recommends earthing the chassis from the xlr-earth. So the chassis should not be un-earthed.
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Hypex recommends earthing the chassis from the xlr-earth. So the chassis should not be un-earthed.
Please correct as necessary. The "earth" you describe is not technically "earth." Nothing necessarily guarantees the audio source at the XLR connects to earth. "Earth" describes 12AWG solid core copper in the 3rd receptacle of the wall outlet directly shorted to a copper pipe 3' or 4' into the earth.
In the case you describe, the chassis shorts to the 0V present at the audio output of the source, which nothing guarantees connects to "earth." The best and most conclusive example is battery operated preamp or other source with variable output. Such source has no "earth." It may be common error to confuse a 0V audio signal reference with "earth." The two may or may not necessarily be the same.
Another example: Ncore input is open. Ncore is not earthed.
That is the whole point with shorting the actual real "earth" in the mains 3rd conductor to the chassis. Whenever mains voltage is present, Ncore chassis is earthed. Obviously if the mains source is not up to current code, all bets off.
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Indeed, one would think risk increases of electrical shock if the case is not earthed.
Are you familiar with IEC Class II principles?
I was surprised to read Bruno's instructions that unearthed chassis meets electrical wiring code.
"A Class II or double insulated electrical appliance is one which has been designed in such a way that it does not require a safety connection to electrical earth (ground)."
I ignored his advice to not earth the chassis. I earthed chassis of all eight NC400 I built.
And that is the safe thing to do if you aren't comfortable with Class II.
I presume Ncore would not contaminate other components in reasonable proximity, but I also suspect external sources could contaminate Ncore, and that earthed chassis minimizes contamination in both directions.
What "contamination" would be affected by safety earth?
From a signal point of view, not connecting mains earth to the chassis is theoretically better.
Possibly, Bruno clearly knows every potential current flow fault, and NC400 and all Hypex power supplies would instantly sense such fault (including +V to chassis) and immediately default to error mode, opening (stopping) the mains current flow. BTW, the protection I describe above may be lacking with non-Hypex power supply.
No. Bruno assumes following Class II rules.
But this still does not address the potential of outside sources degrading and/or contaminating Ncore, and potential for earthed chassis to minimize such.
And how would connecting the chassis to mains earth minimize the "degradation" or "contamination"?
If unearthed chassis only improves audio performance with absolutely no increased risk of danger and no increased risk of contamination either direction, then there is every reason to follow Bruno's advice. To the same degree I suspect the first item is true I suspect the last two are not.
They are if you follow Class II guidelines. If you don't, please connect mains earth to the chassis for safety reasons - as Bruno has stated. To quote the nc400 data sheet: "No safety earth connection was depicted. This is entirely acceptable if class II construction is used throughout. Otherwise, connect the safety earth."
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Hypex recommends earthing the chassis from the xlr-earth. So the chassis should not be un-earthed.
Xlr "earth" (as in the sheath of the coax cable) is not the same thing as mains earth (centre pin of IEC connector).
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"Earth" describes 12AWG solid core copper in the 3rd receptacle of the wall outlet directly shorted to a copper pipe 3' or 4' into the earth.
"Mains earth" describes whatever mains safety earth your local wiring code prescribes. Specifics vary from country to country.
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"Earth" describes 12AWG solid core copper in the 3rd receptacle of the wall outlet directly shorted to a copper pipe 3' or 4' into the earth.
As Julf points out, requirements vary by country, county, city, etc., but in the U.S., if not superceded by local codes, the NEC requirements are two 1/2"D X 8 ft. solid copper ground rods (or 5/8"D X 8 ft. if copper plated) spaced 6 feet apart.
The term "rod" denotes solid construction and hollow pipe or tubing is not permitted.
Steve
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Yes, I typed "pipe" while thinking "rod."
Would someone please describe Class II specifically related only to NC400?
Reading between the lines it appears that shorting the chassis and input neutral conductor shields Ncore equal to earthing the chassis?
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Man i am getting excited to start this project. Did a rough size mock up but will start drawing models up at the shop next week. The case will be a two piece design, a hollow out (machined out slab) box and a 1/2" cover.
Probably anodize the box clear and the cover will be black :)
Matt
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Would someone please describe Class II specifically related only to NC400?
There is noting in the class II rules that relate specifically to the nc400, and the nc400 has no special requirements in that regard. Class II is class II.
Here is what Bruno commented on the matter on diyaudio (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-7.html#post2607561):
IMNSHO the word "ground" should be forcefully removed from the school curriculum. The conflation of "chassis potential", "earth potential", "power supply return" and "reference potential" into that one little sneaky cowardly word "ground" is the source of an absolutely incredible array of engineering problems the world over. Conversely, the simple act of not using the same galvanically connected network for both reference potential and any combination of the other three solves all problems. Chassis, earth and PSU null may be interconnected in any way you like provided that actual signals are accompanied by another wire carrying the reference potential of the source. The receiver, of course, should be capable of subtracting the voltages between the two wires, not attempt to take a shortcut by forcing one of the two to its own "ground" (or to try and force its own "ground" to follow the potential of the reference wire).
Class I equipment needs direct earthing of the chassis for safety, class II equipment does not. However, in the latter case you may not use earthed mains inlets. You may have noticed that mass market consumer audio gear has class II wiring and a 2-prong mains cord. This is because unbalanced connections simply do not mix easily with earthing.
If you cannot construct per class II, floating the secondary ground is a commonly used and very bad practice. Very bad because it requires star connections which are a source of HF problems. It is much better to use a differential input to float the reference terminal ie the RCA shell and sense between the shell and center pin without making a direct connection to chassis or any other of the irrelevant "grounds". One would place a cap and perhaps a resistor to chassis to limit the voltage between the two and stop the connection from becoming an antenna.
That way the differential input acts like an input transformer: only the voltage between two input pins matters, not the voltage with respect to whatever one may think is "ground". There is always an easy solution that does not require fancy floating schemes if you have a differential input at your disposal. There is neither a simpler nor a better solution than the one already in place in the UcD modules. The only thing we can do is write a very long and detailed document explaining the operation of differential inputs. Trust me, once the penny drops you'll bang your head and say "if only I knew it was that obvious". One thing you're guaranteed to do, for instance, is immediately adopt the scheme on the right hand side of the wiring application note. This is much better than any floating secondary or differential RCA connection you can dream of.
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What about NC400 design makes it appropriate to Class II?
There are only 2-conductors on the mains cord of my Pioneer receiver and Sony CDP. Does that necessarily mean the chassis is not earthed? (I will test with a meter latter.) They are both as mass market as exists. If yes, that would apparently answer the question of relative safety.
But does it also not mean that some internal error could possibly result in positive voltage on the chassis? Voltage that would, if the chassis was earthed, cause internal fuse to open and/or external circuit breaker to open?
I've been shocked touching more than one old tube amp, hi-fi and music instrument. Last time was a couple years ago with a 60s Gibson my luthier owns. I've only been to hundreds of fires caused by faulty mains-connected appliances.
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What about NC400 design makes it appropriate to Class II?
I am not sure I understand your question. Bruno prefers not to have mains safety earth connected (and I agree with him). Not having mains safety earth connected means the design has to comply with Class II rules.
To recap: Class I appliances have the chassis connected to mains safety earth - and thus, as you say, protect against voltage somehow being shorted to the chassis by causing the fuse or circuit breaker to operate. Class II is appliances that don't have mains safety earth connected to the chassis, and that therefore must ensure safety by double insulation.
There are only 2-conductors on the mains cord of my Pioneer receiver and Sony CDP. Does that necessarily mean the chassis is not earthed? (I will test with a meter latter.)
If there is no 3rd conductor (and thus no mains safety earth connection) in the mains cord, how could the chassis be earthed to mains safety earth?
Appliances with a 2-pin mains connector are Class II devices and have to comply with double insulation rules. In Europe there is a special symbol for that:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Double_insulation_symbol.svg/150px-Double_insulation_symbol.svg.png).
Does your receiver or CD player have that symbol?
They are both as mass market as exists. If yes, that would apparently answer the question of relative safety.
It really doesn't have much to do with mass market or not. Either the chassis is connected to mains safety earth (Class I) or the construction has to be doubly insulated (Class II).
But does it also not mean that some internal error could possibly result in positive voltage on the chassis? Voltage that would, if the chassis was earthed, cause internal fuse to open and/or external circuit breaker to open?
Yes. That is why you need double insulation.
I've been shocked touching more than one old tube amp, hi-fi and music instrument. Last time was a couple years ago with a 60s Gibson my luthier owns.
If you think that is bad, wait until your mouth touches a microphone that has the metal shell at mains voltage... :)
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I seem to remember Roy Buchanan's amp had some lively stray voltages too.
I guess I'm a believer now. Never thought I'd be convinced to not earth the chassis but here I am. Wish I had one of my NC400 here to audition with the earth lifted.
Years ago I'd often employ 3-pin to 2-pin mains adapter to lift component earth. This would often improve sound quality, sometimes very dramatically. In some cases similar benefit resulted by inverting the mains. In later years adapters were polarized. In such case I trimmed the neutral blade to the same size as the Line blade to allow it to invert.
One thing apparently worth taking from this: if the component is not double insulated and is designed Class I, in such case risk increases of accidental shock by lifting the earth with an adapter or any other means.
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Years ago I'd often employ 3-pin to 2-pin mains adapter to lift component earth.
Just don't tell your insurance company :)
One thing apparently worth taking from this: if the component is not double insulated and is designed Class I, in such case risk increases of accidental shock by lifting the earth with an adapter or any other means.
Absolutely. So unless you really know what you are doing and are familiar with Class II designs, I suggest connecting the mains safety earth.
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Well, we're back to: What is necessary to know to safely wire NC400 Class II?
Yeah, I considered legal risk relative to the adapters as I typed. I felt my risk was somewhat less than a self-described "civil servant" posting YT video of himself riding about 160mph on FL freeways on "test ride" of 2012 Ducati Superbike (actual top end potential well over 160...the video included him riding up to the dealer to get his bike for his "test ride"). Frankly I've not employed such adapter for years.
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Well, we're back to: What is necessary to know to safely wire NC400 Class II?
There is no simple answer.
I guess the only formally proper, safe and correct answer is "IEC standard 61140", where it is specified that you need "two layers of insulation or reinforced insulation on the equipment chassis". The IEC definitions for those are:
3.10.3
double insulation
insulation comprising both basic insulation and supplementary insulation
[IEV 195-06-08]
3.10.4
reinforced insulation
insulation of hazardous-live-parts which provides a degree of protection against electric shock
equivalent to double insulation
[IEV 195-06-09]
Basically you have to make sure all the circuits are sufficiently isolated from the case (and that means not connecting the nc400 base plate to the case).
My personal answer would be "if you have to ask, don't even think about it" :)
I felt my risk was somewhat less than a self-described "civil servant" posting YT video of himself riding about 160mph on FL freeways on "test ride" of 2012 Ducati Superbike (actual top end potential well over 160...the video included him riding up to the dealer to get his bike for his "test ride").
Did he at least work for the Department of Transportation? :)
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The man in the video described himself as a "fire fighter" or something similar.
Around 2000 I attended a medical training session at San Francisco's Presidio, where the SFFD medical division had offices. I read the strangest article of my entire career on a bulletin board at that time. This article was written by a professional medical training specialist. The gist of the article (I wish so badly I had a copy) was that no ambulance ever saved any life that could not have been saved by a station wagon. All I know is that in about 28 years of doing that kind of work, the primary goal of first responders is to transport the patient away from their current location to nearby available hospital. I have no idea if the article was accurate or not but I can't say I have any personal evidence to the contrary.
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All I know is that in about 28 years of doing that kind of work, the primary goal of first responders is to transport the patient away from their current location to nearby available hospital.
Interesting question - and I have absolutely no clue, my only experience on the topic is from the military, and there the circumstances are somewhat different. But I would imagine the expertise/knowledge/experience of first responders is an important factor - you still need to know how to stabilize the patient and not cause additional damage.
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The man in the video described himself as a "fire fighter" or something similar.
Around 2000 I attended a medical training session at San Francisco's Presidio, where the SFFD medical division had offices. I read the strangest article of my entire career on a bulletin board at that time. This article was written by a professional medical training specialist. The gist of the article (I wish so badly I had a copy) was that no ambulance ever saved any life that could not have been saved by a station wagon. All I know is that in about 28 years of doing that kind of work, the primary goal of first responders is to transport the patient away from their current location to nearby available hospital. I have no idea if the article was accurate or not but I can't say I have any personal evidence to the contrary.
I can guarantee it is not true....as Julf said, the initial thing to do is to stabilize, then transport....the technology available to the Paramedics today is amazing, just ask my older brother who was a Paramedic before working his way up to Engineer (he had a career ending injury before he made Captain).
Jim
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This is a thread for Hypex questions and answers.
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This is a thread for Hypex questions and answers.
Noted. So the message is "if you are comfortable with Class II design rules, leave mains safety earth unconnected. If not , connect mains safety earth to chassis - or you might just end up testing the ability of your local First Responders and Ambulance Crews."
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Basically you have to make sure all the circuits are sufficiently isolated from the case (and that means not connecting the nc400 base plate to the case).
My personal answer would be "if you have to ask, don't even think about it" :)
Did he at least work for the Department of Transportation? :)
Isnt it odd that the "preferred connection" in the datasheet of the ncore400 is without mains safety earth and not saying anything about not mounting the baseplate directly to the case?
I get that "preffered connection" refers to the sonic qualities, but it should still have been mentioned it limits the ability to mount the base plate directly to the case.
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Isnt it odd that the "preferred connection" in the datasheet of the ncore400 is without mains safety earth and not saying anything about not mounting the baseplate directly to the case?
I get that "preffered connection" refers to the sonic qualities, but it should still have been mentioned it limits the ability to mount the base plate directly to the case.
Well, it does state "acceptable if class II construction is used throughout".
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Yeah but it says nothing about wether the ncore400 module is a safety class II device or not.
In the SMPS1200 datasheet it is stated it is a safety II device. The SMPS1200 is mounted on an aluminium frame and mounting the SMPS1200 directly on a metal chassis should still comply with safety class II?
The PCB and the metal base on the ncore400 seems to be separated by more than 6mm so why doesnt mounting the metal base to a metal chassis comply with safety class II? Isnt there enough insulation between the parts on the PCB and the metal base?
If this is the case it seams the "preferred connection" of this piece of DIY-targeted electronics isnt preferred for DIYers.
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My method of building a Class II chassis was to use a 3mm thick sheet of Teflon between the SMPS and the Aluminum chassis base while still maintaining the connection of the metal standoff foot via stacked washers that are the same thickness as the Teflon sheet. The washers are then sandwiched in between both connection points. The Teflon sheet is said to have a high dielectric property, is non-flammable and maintains a melting point of near 600deg F.
I would imagine that as long as the umbilical itself that connects the SMPS600 to the NC400 was also "double shielded" it would suffice in maintaining Class II chassis status. I wasn't under the impression that the NC400 aluminum base was NOT "live" cause if it were I would have expected to see the same cautionary text in the whitepaper with a "Red" outline around its circumference like on the SMPS600 highlighting this possibility. Obviously the problem with lifting the NC400 from the chassis is you would lose a great deal of cooling unless you account for such issues with sufficient venting in other places nearby.
In my case, despite building the chassis in such a way that would allow me to "unearth" the IEC safely I'm not sure yet if I will go that route or not. Most likely I will earth it first and see how it sounds. If I hear any hum/hiss I will then move onto the unearthed approach. I think with using the Teflon sheet, even if I use an earthed connection, it will help reduce any chances of stray voltage from the SMPS600 to the chassis. At least that's the theory... :lol:
I read in another post one member who was able to measure some level of stray voltage within the chassis coming from the SMPS600 thus they decided to earth it as a CYA in fear of electrocution.
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Yeah but it says nothing about wether the ncore400 module is a safety class II device or not.
In the SMPS1200 datasheet it is stated it is a safety II device.
And the same goes for the SMPS600.
I agree Hypex should have been clearer and more explicit about how well the nc400 base plate is isolated. Without knowing what isolation tests Hypex have done, there is no way I would state on a public forum that attaching the nc400 base plate to a metal enclosure will satisfy class II requirements - and anyway, class II requires taking care of a lot of other things too, so I fully agree with the recommendation from Hypex: "No safety earth connection was depicted. This is entirely acceptable if class II construction is used throughout. Otherwise, connect the safety earth."
If this is the case it seams the "preferred connection" of this piece of DIY-targeted electronics isnt preferred for DIYers.
Indeed it isn't. I think Bruno has indicated that the preference for the "preferred connection" isn't very strong. So, again - unless you are familiar with class II requirements and design, and know what you are doing, connect safety earth.
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Jut adding some additional info here about the baseplate on the NC400. I used my multi-meter and connected on of the leads to the earth pin on the IEC Input and touched the other lead to the baseplate on the NC400 and it did not result in a "Short". I am assuming this is because of the coating on the NC400 baseplate. I am also assuming this is expected but please chime in if you feel that doing this should have resulted in a "Short" on the multi-meter. All other areas of the chassis near/around the NC400 baseplate did result in a "Short".
The plate does indeed look to be made of Aluminum but the coating seems to be the insulator preventing the short. I wonder what happens if this plate becomes live by accident as the result of the coating be scratched? :scratch:
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Jut adding some additional info here about the baseplate on the NC400. I used my multi-meter and connected on of the leads to the earth pin on the IEC Input and touched the other lead to the baseplate on the NC400 and it did not result in a "Short". I am assuming this is because of the coating on the NC400 baseplate. I am also assuming this is expected but please chime in if you feel that doing this should have resulted in a "Short" on the multi-meter. All other areas of the chassis near/around the NC400 baseplate did result in a "Short".
The plate does indeed look to be made of Aluminum but the coating seems to be the insulator preventing the short. I wonder what happens if this plate becomes live by accident as the result of the coating be scratched? :scratch:
Did you also put the probe into the mounting holes for the screws? Just curious.
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Thanks for the info.
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Hello guys,
I need some advice; i have build an ncore amp in an chassis that is for an HTPC : the streacom fc5-ws http://www.streacom.com/products/fc5-ws-fanless-chassis/ (http://www.streacom.com/products/fc5-ws-fanless-chassis/) Now in the front there is an blue light that can be attached to an motherboard.
Can anybody telle me how to connect this to the amps or the powersupply so that if the amp is powered on that the led will light up ?
Thx
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Hello,
IMO it my be easier to hog out the hole where the Blue LED currently resides and replace it with a Illuminated pushbutton power switch like the one below. That way you can just wire it up inline with your IEC power Input.
http://www.nkkswitches.com/series.aspx?stid=3&id=5073 (http://www.nkkswitches.com/series.aspx?stid=3&id=5073)
The SMPS has AUX output jumpers (J1) on it but, again IMO, I would avoid using them for this purpose
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IMO it my be easier to hog out the hole where the Blue LED currently resides and replace it with a Illuminated pushbutton power switch like the one below. That way you can just wire it up inline with your IEC power Input.
http://www.nkkswitches.com/series.aspx?stid=3&id=5073 (http://www.nkkswitches.com/series.aspx?stid=3&id=5073)
I have a few questions on the power switch you linked to:
1. Although few would drive the amplifier to it's maximum output, does an AC switch rated at 3A have the necessary safety margin for a 600W power supply running off of 125VAC line voltage?
2. Because the built-in light is an externally powered LED requiring ~ 2VDC (or higher if a ballast resistor used), where is that DC voltage connection sourced from the SMPS600?
Thanks,
Steve
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Hello,
From what I see on the spec sheet it looks like that switch can be used in AC or DC configurations so there shouldn't be a need to have a DC feed from the SMPS.
I can't speak to the safety margin but it does say it can be used in 125VAC or 250VAC applications @ 3A. Whether that specific switch is adequate would depend on how many Watts one expects to draw for the intended application.
I linked to that one more so as an example of what I was speaking about in my previous post but there are other higher rated units on the market that can handle more Amperage.
Here is another one below of the toggle type and is illuminated with a 6A rating and may be a better match. Based on my calculations 125v @ 600w = 4.8A leaving 1.2A of headroom
http://www.nkkswitches.com/series.aspx?stid=13&id=5061 (http://www.nkkswitches.com/series.aspx?stid=13&id=5061)
At the end of the day if someone wants to have some form of indication that the amp is powered up the safest approach would be to leave a hole in the chassis so you can see the built-in LED on the board of the NC400 module or as an alternative just buy a IEC power Input with an illuminated On/Off switch and skip the remote LED altogether.
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From what I see on the spec sheet it looks like that switch can be used in AC or DC configurations so there shouldn't be a need to have a DC feed from the SMPS.
Yes, the switch contacts can be used to switch an AC or DC circuit, but because the lamp is an LED (and this particular switch doesn't have a built-in chip rectifier/power supply like LED home light bulbs), the switch does have separate lamp terminals that require a DC voltage to operate.
I can't speak to the safety margin but it does say it can be used in 125VAC or 250VAC applications @ 3A. Whether that specific switch is adequate would depend on how many Watts one expects to draw for the intended application.
Exactly, and because the amp might later be use by another person with less sensitive speakers and higher power demands, as well as the fact that although the SMPS is very efficient it's efficiency is somewhat less than 100%, I would be inclined to use the 6A rated switched on a 125VAC line input, although on a 250VAC line input the switch would need to only carry half the current and the 3A would be fine.
Steve
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I am a fan of Class D amplification but not a fan of switch mode power supplies. Has anyone been experimenting with driving the Hypex nCore module with an appropriately matched regulated linear power supply? I know they would use a lot more energy, but wouldn't this yield potentially large benefits In Sound quality?
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Extremely doubtful. Look at the performance charts for the amp and ask how a linear supply would improve on that.
You could change the sound with a different supply but ultimately probably just degrade it. Imo would have to be an absolute top flight linear supply designed specifically for this amp.
The resistance against a switcher is the same as the resistance against class d. It doesn't make sense to you that there is a switcher used with this amp. But when you hear it, any concerns will melt away.
I have another amp and for it I have a switcher (which is terrible), a big linear supply, and also batteries for it. This ncore with its switching supply destroys that amp with any PS configuration.
The switcher on the ncore is as advanced as the amp itself, so your fears are unfounded and out of date. It's extremely good.
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I'm not sure why the aggression in your reply, rclark. All of the specs I have seen indicate that well-made linear power supplies outperform switching supplies. There's nothing out-of-date about that position. In fact, there have been some recent linear power product introductions that seem to be a step forward vs older models.
So can anybody reply to my question or has the idea of driving an nCore with a linear supply not been tried?
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It has been tried. Search the thread at diyaudio. Reports are the differences are not significant and in light of the added complexity, cost, weight, etc., not worth the trouble.
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I'm not sure why the aggression in your reply, rclark. All of the specs I have seen indicate that well-made linear power supplies outperform switching supplies. There's nothing out-of-date about that position. In fact, there have been some recent linear power product introductions that seem to be a step forward vs older models.
So can anybody reply to my question or has the idea of driving an nCore with a linear supply not been tried?
Apologies. Just saying that in this case I think it would have to be a purpose built linear supply, if a linear supply were to provide any improvement, if possible.
I am of the mind that improvements would come with a next gen switching supply by Hypex, something that improves on the smps600. Not an off the shelf linear supply.
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There are quite a few manufacturers using their own linear power supplies with the Hypex UCD modules. I agree that there would (should) be some knowledgeable design that would go into building a linear supply for the Ncores, rather than the average DIY guy just slapping together a transformer, rectifiers and filter caps.
Part of the reason we haven't seen it for the Ncore 1200 might be that it would take a very heavy and expensive power supply be able to output a maximum of 1200W at 2 Ohms. As the current manufactured Ncore 1200 amplifiers are selling for ~ $10,000 to $15,000 / pair, I would expect that the same amplifiers with beefy linear power supplies would be selling for an additional ~ $3,000 to ~ $5,000 per pair.
As far as Hypex and Bruno Putzey is concerned, I'm sure lighter, smaller, cheaper and more efficient is the view for the future world, not heavier, larger, more expensive and less efficient.
Steve
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"Knowledgeable design"? There are only so many ways to build an unregulated linear power supply and I assure you it's not rocket science.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=81160)
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A linear "regulated" supply would take some doing, but a simple unregulated raw supply is easy.
You get a big transformer, some big reservoir capacitors, some diodes that don't make much noise and connect it all with a good grounding scheme. It's a project for a first year electronics student.
Cheers,
Dave.
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All of the specs I have seen indicate that well-made linear power supplies outperform switching supplies.
I'd be very interested in seeing any specs you might have that show that a linear PS outperforms a well-designed switching supply when powering a class D amp. So far my experiences have been exactly the opposite.
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Hi julf,
Here's a basic to-do that has some comparative specs under "Noise and Ripple":
http://www.power-supply-designer.com/2011/03/linear-ps/
The Wikipedia entry on switched ps is instructive:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply#SMPS_and_linear_power_supply_comparison
This unsourced engineering mini-paper has a graph on p 2 showing a wide disparity in noise & ripple between the two types of supplies:
http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/ad0f282819902a1986256f79005462b1/7438e77138bddf1b86256f660008e9cc/$FILE/linear_versus_switching.pdf
Thanks for making me look this up. It seems to be conventional wisdom among engineers that regulated linear have superior noise & ripple stats compared to switched mode supplies, which in turn are more efficient, smaller and handle input voltage swings better.
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Hi, Jult,
Thanks for making me look this up. It seems to be conventional wisdom among engineers that regulated linear have superior noise & ripple stats compared to switched mode supplies, which in turn are more efficient, smaller and handle input voltage swings better.
Thanks for the links!
That is indeed the conventional wisdom. In the specific case of nc400/smps600, there are a couple of specific things - one is the synchronous operation, and the other is the superior current capability (as linear regulators use a virtual shunt resistance that limits peak current). The ripple of the smps is of course at much higher frequency than the linear one, and as a class D amp needs a low pass filter in any case, the HF ripple gets dealt with anyway.
Now, all this is assuming a *regulated* linear supply - not just your bog standard rectifier-plus-large-caps unregulated supply. Regulated linear supplies in the 400-600 W range are not trivial undertakings.
I am in no way against linear supplies for class D amps - but it should be an informed choice based on facts rather than superstition and audiophile folklore.
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Does anybody know what kind of cable i should use between an minidsp with rca female out and an XLR female connector build in a chassis with smps600 and nc400.
Would somethg like this http://www.proaudiola.com/product-p/1-m2549-rca-xlrm-1.htm (http://www.proaudiola.com/product-p/1-m2549-rca-xlrm-1.htm) be ok ? Because i can't seem to find an wiring scheme for these cables
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Does anybody know what kind of cable i should use between an minidsp with rca female out and an XLR female connector build in a chassis with smps600 and nc400.
Would somethg like this http://www.proaudiola.com/product-p/1-m2549-rca-xlrm-1.htm (http://www.proaudiola.com/product-p/1-m2549-rca-xlrm-1.htm) be ok ? Because i can't seem to find an wiring scheme for these cables
That should work just fine. The other option would be to purchase standard interconnects and get a female RCA to male XLR adapter (https://www.google.com/shopping/product/6853490296802264409?q=xlr%20adapter&biw=1322&bih=831&sa=X&ei=hw67Ue_EHoLC9QT5u4DIDQ&ved=0CIcBEPMCMAI).
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Can the operating voltage be changed on the nc400 kits, I dont need 500 watts at 4 ohm , 1 ohm is where i live, is this possible and are the modules safe at 1 ohm ...
Regards ...
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Can the operating voltage be changed on the nc400 kits, I dont need 500 watts at 4 ohm , 1 ohm is where i live, is this possible and are the modules safe at 1 ohm ...
Hypex specifies the minimum load impedance as 1 ohm in "Recommended Operating Conditions", so you are safe down to 1 ohm (but not below).
Power supply voltage can be dropped down (to the undervoltage cutoff limit of 35 V), but you might just want to limit input voltage instead - lowering the supply voltage probably doesn't bring much benefit.
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Thanks for the response , lowering the voltage will/should improve the low Z performance ....
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Thanks for the response , lowering the voltage will/should improve the low Z performance ....
Why?
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Speaker loads below 4 ohm are current driven as oppose to voltage driven , by lowering the psu voltage , the output stage will have better SOA and less current limiting. Also looking at the published specs it appears the output impedance is between .5-1ohm , seems it might be too high to drive a 1ohm load...
Regards
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Speaker loads below 4 ohm are current driven as oppose to voltage driven , by lowering the psu voltage , the output stage will have better SOA and less current limiting.
I don' t think the current capability is SOA-limited (or supply voltage dependent). It seems to be hard limited by the overcurrent protection at 24 A.
Also looking at the published specs it appears the output impedance is between .5-1ohm , seems it might be too high to drive a 1ohm load...
Not sure where you are reading that - the Hypex NC400 datasheet specifies Zout as 0.0006 ohm typical, 0.0025 max, so from that point 1 ohm is not a problem.
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How many output voltages does the smps600 have? One?
I bet it's possible to make an at least competitive linear PSU. But I would ask how the ncore modules do with voltage variance (unregulated) before I'd really believe it. But also a good PSU might be immense in size depending on how many output voltages are needed.
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How many output voltages does the smps600 have? One?
There is the main supply vltages (+ and -) and the auxiliary supply voltages (+ and -), so 2 or 4, depending on how you count.
I bet it's possible to make an at least competitive linear PSU.
I guess it depends on your definition of "competitive". Sound quality-wise equivalent? Maybe. In most other aspecs (size, efficiency, heat dissipation, cost etc.) - no way.
But I would ask how the ncore modules do with voltage variance (unregulated) before I'd really believe it.
I agree.
But also a good PSU might be immense in size depending on how many output voltages are needed.
Indeed - mostly negating all the non-SQ-related benefits of a class D amp.
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Even if it was better, it'd unpractical to make how I'd do it for anyone that has something called a budget.
But I'd like to note that in the pictures it appears to have a CMC in the PSU along with some filter caps. It has some built in noise reduction. You'd have to compete with that as well. That's part of the cost that probably wouldn't have a point worth it.
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Speaker loads below 4 ohm are current driven as oppose to voltage driven
I am not quite sure what you mean by that. As far as I know, The nc400 is pretty much the equivalent of a voltage amplifier, so the speaker load is voltage driven, no matter what the load impedance (as in the amp controls the output voltage, and the current is depends on the voltage and the load impedance.
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I don' t think the current capability is SOA-limited (or supply voltage dependent). It seems to be hard limited by the overcurrent protection at 24 A.
Not sure where you are reading that - the Hypex NC400 datasheet specifies Zout as 0.0006 ohm typical, 0.0025 max, so from that point 1 ohm is not a problem.
It seriously current limits going from 4-2 ohm at standard voltage, so yes i would like to lower operating voltage, much better for sonics and SOA and Yes correct on the output impedance , i had missed the unit used (iphone, old eyes) ..
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
:)
Regards
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I am not quite sure what you mean by that. As far as I know, The nc400 is pretty much the equivalent of a voltage amplifier, so the speaker load is voltage driven, no matter what the load impedance (as in the amp controls the output voltage, and the current is depends on the voltage and the load impedance.
Low Z speakers require and amp to sink current not voltage, calculate the amps needed for 500 watts @ 1ohm and see what i mean , the amp capability is assisted if we lower the PSU voltage , optimizing its output at 1 ohm , not 8 as is standard ...
Currently there is significant current limiting going from 4-2 ohms with standard supply voltage..
Regards ,
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It seriously current limits going from 4-2 ohm at standard voltage
How do you know that?
i would like to lower operating voltage, much better for sonics and SOA
I still don't see how lowering the voltage would increase the current driving capacity. Have you actually done a SOA analysis on the nc400?
Any effects on sonics is of course speculation until verified.
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Low Z speakers require and amp to sink current not voltage
Ohm's law doesn't suddenly change at some magic impedance value.
The lower the impedance, the more current and less voltage are required to reach a specific power value, but what the nc400 controls is the voltage, not the current. The current is a result of the voltage, and lowering the supply voltage does not increase the current capability of the amp.
"Current-dumping" and current-control amplifier designs are another matter, but as far as I know, the nc400 isn't one of them.
calculate the amps needed for 500 watts @ 1ohm and see what i mean
22 A, something the nc400 can drive into 1 ohm by outputting a 22 V - independent of the supply voltage. You still need 22 V on the output to cause 22 A in a 1 ohm load, and it doesn't matter if the supply voltage is 30 V or 299.5 V.
the amp capability is assisted if we lower the PSU voltage , optimizing its output at 1 ohm , not 8 as is standard ...
No. If you know your load impedance is low, you *can* lower your supply voltage if you change component values, but just changing the supply voltage without changing anything else won't increase the current capability.
Currently there is significant current limiting going from 4-2 ohms with standard supply voltage..
What makes you think that?
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How do you know that?
I still don't see how lowering the voltage would increase the current driving capacity. Have you actually done a SOA analysis on the nc400?
Any effects on sonics is of course speculation until verified.
Surprising ....
I posted a link previously and you seem very familiar with the spec sheet, it's 2 ohm output shows current limiting, as to SOA , it's academic, no analysis would be necessary in saying the SOA would be better served by lowering operating voltage ...
Regards...
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Ohm's law doesn't suddenly change at some magic impedance value.
The lower the impedance, the more current and less voltage are required to reach a specific power value, but what the nc400 controls is the voltage, not the current. The current is a result of the voltage, and lowering the supply voltage does not increase the current capability of the amp.
"Current-dumping" and current-control amplifier designs are another matter, but as far as I know, the nc400 isn't one of them.
22 A, something the nc400 can drive into 1 ohm by outputting a 22 V - independent of the supply voltage. You still need 22 V on the output to cause 22 A in a 1 ohm load, and it doesn't matter if the supply voltage is 30 V or 299.5 V.
No. If you know your load impedance is low, you *can* lower your supply voltage if you change component values, but just changing the supply voltage without changing anything else won't increase the current capability.
What makes you think that?
We must be talking past each other , Low -Z operation requires current, that part of Ohm's law doesn't change because of class-d ..:)
NC400
200@8
400@4
575@2
Obvious current limiting ,it will not drive a 1 ohm load without issues , for comparisions...
Krell KSA200
200@8
400@4
800@2
No current limiting or very little at Low Z operation ...
Regards,
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I posted a link previously and you seem very familiar with the spec sheet, it's 2 ohm output shows current limiting
In the amp or in the power supply? How would lowering the supply voltage improve the situation?
as to SOA , it's academic, no analysis would be necessary in saying the SOA would be better served by lowering operating voltage ...
Without a proper analysis there is no way to know what the limiting factor is for the SOA, and what effect the supply voltage would have. Is it a thermal limitation? Current limitation? Voltage limitation?
As I keep saying - just lowering the supply voltage without changing component values to take advantage of the lower voltage won't do anything for you.
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Page8
Look at power vs thd @ 2 ohms , the Knee takes place at 100 watts, technically this is the sweet spot , 100 watts at 2 , best bet would be 100watts at 1 ohm , before distortion rises sharply, the knee represents the sweet spot. So yes, there is nothing in the technical papers that would lead me to believe this is a stable low Z design for continuous low-Z operation, The Bel Canto's had the same issue..
http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf
No worries, many have fallen on this sword ... :)
Regards
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Obvious current limiting
Obvious, yes, but what is limiting the current? The amp (why?) or the power supply?
And again, why would lowering the supply voltage make any difference - unless you redesign the amp for a lower supply voltage and lower load impedance?
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Obvious, yes, but what is limiting the current? The amp (why?) or the power supply?
And again, why would lowering the supply voltage make any difference - unless you redesign the amp for a lower supply voltage and lower load impedance?
I'm not sure, 3 emails to Hypex requesting data has not been answered, I would believe it's a combination of both supply and amp, by lowering the output voltage but with the same VA capability , you will have a more stable amplifier ..
NC 400 lower PSu voltage
100@8
200@4
400@2
575@1
as an eg,
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Look at power vs thd @ 2 ohms , the Knee takes place at 100 watts, technically this is the sweet spot , 100 watts at 2
Yes, I am sure we all agree 100 W is the sweet spot in terms of lowest distortion. So why does that make you think the nc400 isn't a "stable low Z design for continuous low-Z operation"?
So yes, there is nothing in the technical papers that would lead me to believe this is a stable low Z design for continuous low-Z operation
I also don' t see anything leading me to believe it isn't.
Clearly the nc400 doesn't satisfy your special criteria, so I suggest you use some other amplifier design instead.
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Well we agree finally .... :)
Still interested in hearing it, I"m willing to test yours at 1 ohm for you, if you are that confident about the smoke staying in ...... :)
Regards,
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by lowering the output voltage but with the same VA capability , you will have a more stable amplifier ..
I will say this one more time - the nc400/smps600 combination isn't just some ideal simple transformer where you can arbitrarily trade voltage for current within the same VA capacity / power. To take benefit of a lower supply voltage and a lower load impedance, you need to (at least) adapt component values.
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I will say this one more time - the nc400/smps600 combination isn't just some ideal simple transformer where you can arbitrarily trade voltage for current within the same VA capacity / power. To take benefit of a lower supply voltage and a lower load impedance, you need to (at least) adapt component values.
I was going to do my own supply, hence the questions if it was possible , i thought that was understood based on where we were going with this ... :scratch:
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I"m willing to test yours at 1 ohm for you, if you are that confident about the smoke staying in ...... :)
If the smoke stays in when driving a 0 ohm short, it will stay in at 1 ohm. At some point, lowering the load impedance, the overcurrent protection will kick in, as a lot of people have discovered.
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I was going to do my own supply, hence the questions if it was possible , i thought that was understood based on where we were going with this ... :scratch:
Which is fine if the limitations are caused by the power supply. I thought you were asking about the nc400.
If you design a new power supply that trades current for voltage you might be able to optimize your design for a low load impedance, but it won't change how the nc400 behaves (as long as you stay above specified minimum supply voltage).
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If the smoke stays in when driving a 0 ohm short, it will stay in at 1 ohm. At some point, lowering the load impedance, the overcurrent protection will kick in, as a lot of people have discovered.
Whats that value .....?
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Whats that value .....?
24 A, according to the Good Datasheet.
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There are so many fantastic sounding speakers that don't present such unmanageably low loads of 1 Ohm. Why bend over backwards to accommodate these unusual constructions? I mean, you could design an automobile engine that requires jet aviation fuel, but why would you want to?
Just curious about a speaker choice that eliminates literally hundreds of great amplifiers from the running.
Steve
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There are so many fantastic sounding speakers that don't present such unmanageably low loads of 1 Ohm. Why bend over backwards to accommodate these unusual constructions? I mean, you could design an automobile engine that requires jet aviation fuel, but why would you want to?
Steve
Really, name one .... :)
Most SOTA speakers will represent a 2ohm load , some ESL's will get down below 1ohm and worse are capacitive, but you could be right, i could stop bending over backwards , stop looking for what i want , what works for me and get a easy load one and call it a day...
Any recommendations ... :)
Regards
Ps : There are no great amps not capable of driving a Low-Z load ...
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24 A, according to the Good Datasheet.
Yes, i saw that ......
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Unless you're a PHD in amplifier design, have a full understanding of the workings of the NC400, and have a fortune to throw at this linear supply, several times more than the amp itself, you're wasting your time, IMO.
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Unless you're a PHD in amplifier design, have a full understanding of the workings of the NC400, and have a fortune to throw at this linear supply, several times more than the amp itself, you're wasting your time, IMO.
Well, aren't all hobbies pretty much a waste of time? :)
Nothing wrong in trying, but as with any experiment, the results might not be what you hope for...
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Most SOTA speakers will represent a 2ohm load , some ESL's will get down below 1ohm and worse are capacitive
Yes, and the nc400 will have no problem driving them. Maximum power might be current-limited, but as long as you don't drive them full out (your lower supply voltage would limit the power anyway), it won't be an issue. 24 A is a heck of a lot of current...
Ps : There are no great amps not capable of driving a Low-Z load ...
You do seem to like broad, sweeping statements.
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a wayne
Why don't you post in this http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108203.0 thread and see if you can borrow a pair to try?
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Unless you're a PHD in amplifier design, have a full understanding of the workings of the NC400, and have a fortune to throw at this linear supply, several times more than the amp itself, you're wasting your time, IMO.
Thanks , pretty much what i wanted to know , NC400 best with supplied Psu ....
Regards
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Yes, and the nc400 will have no problem driving them. Maximum power might be current-limited, but as long as you don't drive them full out (your lower supply voltage would limit the power anyway), it won't be an issue. 24 A is a heck of a lot of current...
You do seem to like broad, sweeping statements.
Not really , they are absolute statements made from absolutely doing this for 40 yrs, the best ones all do low -z and drive anything , this is easily proven if you want to see and as you have pointed out the NC400 does low-z with of course some current limiting ...
Regards
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a wayne
Why don't you post in this http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108203.0 thread and see if you can borrow a pair to try?
Thanks for the heads up , already tried such ........
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NC400 best with supplied Psu ....
Definitely.
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Not really , they are absolute statements made from absolutely doing this for 40 yrs, the best ones all do low -z and drive anything , this is easily proven if you want to see and as you have pointed out the NC400 does low-z with of course some current limiting ...
Unfortunately "best" is absolutely an arbitrary and subjective qualification.
If you want to see some absolute disagreement, post either your criteria of what makes an amp qualify as one of the "best", or just a list of the "best" amps... :)
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Your first , my flame suit is still at the cleaners ..... :)
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Your first , my flame suit is still at the cleaners ..... :)
Still haven't found cleaners that do flame suits properly...
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Yeah i know what you mean , I'm giving this one a shot at it ..... :lol:
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Some wiring clarification, please... This is for an un-switched (always on when connected to AC) application.
Near as I can tell from the various posts, when connecting the J9 harness, both J9 Pin 3 nAMPON and Pin 4 Ground should connect to chassis. I had planned to run Pin 4 gound wire to a lug captured under the screw of the grounded PS chassis leg. Should I also connect the nAMPON there? This would mean XLR Pin 1 is not connected to anything. This seems odd, but what I know of electrical design would fit in a thimble.
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Some wiring clarification, please... This is for an un-switched (always on when connected to AC) application.
Near as I can tell from the various posts, when connecting the J9 harness, both J9 Pin 3 nAMPON and Pin 4 Ground should connect to chassis. I had planned to run Pin 4 gound wire to a lug captured under the screw of the grounded PS chassis leg. Should I also connect the nAMPON there? This would mean XLR Pin 1 is not connected to anything. This seems odd, but what I know of electrical design would fit in a thimble.
Why would you do it that way, rather than the Hypex-recommended way (figure 2 on the data sheet)? XLR pin 1 should be connected to chassis.
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OK, XLR Pin 1 connects directly to the chassis, resolving my empty XLR Pin 1 question.
Figure two shows J9 pins 1 & 2 audio input connected to XLR pins 2 & 3, as well as pin 4 ground going to chassis. Pin 3 nAMPON is not shown, but also goes to chassis, yes?
I do appreciate your help!
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Pin 3 nAMPON is not shown, but also goes to chassis, yes?
Yes. Doesn't much matter where.
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All set, thanks!
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RUR: you might consider putting a switch on nAmpon as well. Especially if you are not going to have a hard power switch (which is an approach I like). This way, you can mute the output of the amp, without having to unplug it. It is quite handy being able to do this, and adding a switch to nAmpon is super easy.
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I realize it's a simple switch, lifting nAMPON, but I'm trying to keep this dirt simple and there's no practical need for muting in my system.
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One more question... In my always-on config, can I safely hot swap XLRs, or must the amp be disconnected from AC first? I can and have safely done this with other balanced amps.
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One more question... In my always-on config, can I safely hot swap XLRs, or must the amp be disconnected from AC first? I can and have safely done this with other balanced amps.
This is one of the reasons I suggested adding a simple switch to nAmpon. By muting the output, you eliminate any annoying pops from the speakers while hot plugging the XLR cables in and out. I suspect you can do this with no worries anyway, but it is nice to mute the output first.
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Hmmm... this could be a fun project even for a novice like myself. I have a Bryston 3B that's sat in storage for about 13 years. I wonder if it would be a good enclosure to work with.
(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/brystonpic3bst.jpg)
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Yes but a bit large for what it needs to be. Also, I'm sure there is some Bryston fan out there that would love to get his/her hands on that unit that's been sitting for 13yrs.
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What's a rough practical footprint (and height) for an uncrowded dual mono build? (stereo with separate power supplies)
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What's a rough practical footprint (and height) for an uncrowded dual mono build? (stereo with separate power supplies)
See this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106187.0
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A read through that thread has got me wanting to give this a go. I admire the craftsmanship that's gone into some of these builds.
At the moment I have an old bridged Krell KAV150a driving my centre speaker (Egglestonworks Andra III Center) and another Krell KAV 150a driving the rear speakers (Egglestonworks Rosa). Driving my front speakers, Egglestonworks Andra III, is a Krel FPB 200. I wonder how an NCore would compare either as a 3 channel setup to replace the KAVs or stereo to compete against the FPB.
Can I ask some incredibly basic questions?
I notice people generally seem to be using a switched IEC inlet with a fuse. Why not use a circuit breaker to avoid the fuse (and use as a main power switch)?
Would a 3 channel setup require a high current inlet?
Would there be any heat issues having 3 PSUs and 3 amp modules in the one enclosure of circa 450W x 300D x 80H (mm)?
Incredibly dumb question... I noticed in Steidl Guitars's build here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106187.20 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106187.20) bolted connections are being made to the inner side of the rear plate of the chassis without going fully through the plate. How is this done? (A short tapped hole plus a threaded insert or more basic?)
Where do you source the cable tie down anchors I see attached to the interior of some of the chassis and how are they affixed?
(I have questions on how to wire an on-off switch (or I guess more appropriately a mute switch) but they can wait.)
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I noticed in Steidl Guitars's build here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106187.20 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106187.20) bolted connections are being made to the inner side of the rear plate of the chassis without going fully through the plate. How is this done? (A short tapped hole plus a threaded insert or more basic?)
Those are all through holes -- bolts through the outside, nuts on the inside. You could drill and tap them if you preferred.
Where do you source the cable tie down anchors I see attached to the interior of some of the chassis and how are they affixed?
Any of the usual general suppliers such as Mouser, etc.
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Those are all through holes -- bolts through the outside, nuts on the inside. You could drill and tap them if you preferred.
Any of the usual general suppliers such as Mouser, etc.
Ah silly me. I looked again at your photos and this time it's obvious.
What are they properly called? (To help me search)
BTW I think your build is superb!
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What are they properly called? (To help me search)
I assume you mean the cable mounts? I don't know their official name, but Mouser lists 3,000+ items under cable mounting accessories:
http://www.mouser.com/Wire-Cable/Wire-Protection-Management/Cable-Mounting-Accessories/_/N-apvm6/
BTW I think your build is superb!
Thanks, although it is pretty darned pedestrian compared to some others!
Good luck to you if you build one.
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Yeah I spent quite a lot of time looking through there - like looking for a needle in a haystack. Perhaps someone else will have the answer that helps me narrow the search, plus answers to my other questions.
I would describe it as elegant. BTW did you ever sort out the wiring for your front switch so that the light turned off when the amp was muted?
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I notice people generally seem to be using a switched IEC inlet with a fuse. Why not use a circuit breaker to avoid the fuse (and use as a main power switch)?
The SMPS has a fuse built in so another isn't needed or required.
Would a 3 channel setup require a high current inlet?
No.
Would there be any heat issues having 3 PSUs and 3 amp modules in the one enclosure of circa 450W x 300D x 80H (mm)?
I don't think so. Just put a few vents in the top and you will be fine.
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like looking for a needle in a haystack.
Yep, but the filtering system works well. Maybe "cable mounts" or "cable hold downs." I can check my receipt when I get home.
BTW did you ever sort out the wiring for your front switch so that the light turned off when the amp was muted?
I did; it was just a matter of wiring it differently.
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The SMPS has a fuse built in so another isn't needed or required.
And make sure the IEC connector doesn't have a filter built-in...
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Thanks all. BTW I noticed some people splashing out on rhodium plated connections. I found this intriguing given what I had previously read about rhodium.
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/On%20the%20Conductivity%20of%20Selected%20Metals.pdf
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BTW I noticed some people splashing out on rhodium plated connections.
Maybe they run their gear very hot? :)
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:lol: Nothing like listening next to a blast furnace. And one wouldn't want their gold plating melting off.
PS I found the cable tie mounts here http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/cable-tie-mounts/0521140/
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Julf
I have read and re-read the discussion on pg 33 of this thread regarding whether or not the chassis should be connected to the mains "ground" (by connecting the ground pin of the IEC inlet to the chassis). Of course, the easy/safest thing to do is connect it and move on. But with respect to the specifics of building a supplied NC400 amp with a SMPS600 power supply, I'm a bit confused as to what specific things need to be adhered to in order to comply with Class II and hence not need to link the chassis to mains supply ground? Double insulated wire for the internal AC wiring?
You might respond "if you have to ask, just wire the ground IEC pin to the chassis and play safe" but I'd like to understand this better.
Regards
Steve
If it's relevant, I would be using balanced XLR input (from the rear of the chassis connector: left pin 1 to cable shield, right pin 2 to +ve, bottom pin 3 to -ve and top pin to chassis. I also understand from reading here that the nAmpon "thin black wire" needs to be connected to the chassis although I do not yet understand the wiring if nAmpon and a front panel mute switch.
I feel like there is an installation manual I am missing even though I have read the data sheets and manuals for both the NC400 and SMPS600. Perhaps it's just a case of reading them again!
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Steve,
I'm a bit confused as to what specific things need to be adhered to in order to comply with Class II and hence not need to link the chassis to mains supply ground? Double insulated wire for the internal AC wiring?
While Class II is usually involves double insulation (not just of the wiring, but everything that carries a voltage), the real guiding principle is "no single failure should result in dangerous voltage becoming exposed so that it might cause an electric shock". Class I accomplishes this by having the chassis connected to safety earth, so that a failure will be shorted to earth and causes the fuse(s) to blow. In Class II you have to accomplish the safety function without grounding the chassis to safety earth, so insulation requirements are much stricter.
If you have a metal case, you need to make sure the electronics are well enough insulated from the case, and that nothing can be inserted into any hole in the case so that it makes contact with any of the electrical circuits.
There are formal requirements for Class II, but they shouldn't apply to a hobbyist making something for their own use - but do understand that I can not recommend anything else than conforming to the formal Class II safety requirements and standards.
If it's relevant, I would be using balanced XLR input (from the rear of the chassis connector: left pin 1 to cable shield, right pin 2 to +ve, bottom pin 3 to -ve and top pin to chassis. I also understand from reading here that the nAmpon "thin black wire" needs to be connected to the chassis although I do not yet understand the wiring if nAmpon and a front panel mute switch.
nAmpon needs to be connected to ground (the cable shield). Ground (the cable shield) might or might not be connected to the chassis (the Hypex recommended connection is to connect both the cable shield and pin 1 of the XLR to the chassis). If you have a metal shell XLR connector, the top (shell) pin will be connected to the chassis anyway through the metal contact between the XLR shell and chassis.
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Steve,
While Class II is usually involves double insulation (not just of the wiring, but everything that carries a voltage), the real guiding principle is "no single failure should result in dangerous voltage becoming exposed so that it might cause an electric shock". Class I accomplishes this by having the chassis connected to safety earth, so that a failure will be shorted to earth and causes the fuse(s) to blow. In Class II you have to accomplish the safety function without grounding the chassis to safety earth, so insulation requirements are much stricter.
If you have a metal case, you need to make sure the electronics are well enough insulated from the case, and that nothing can be inserted into any hole in the case so that it makes contact with any of the electrical circuits.
There are formal requirements for Class II, but they shouldn't apply to a hobbyist making something for their own use - but do understand that I can not recommend anything else than conforming to the formal Class II safety requirements and standards.
Ok. So presumably proper installation means (in this respect) making sure the non-isolated spacer on the PSU has proper contact with the chassis, using the cables provided in proper fashion (I'm assuming that everything that one gets from Hypex of course conforms) but that using something like Cardas 15.5AWG litz wire for internal AC wiring would not technically conform to Class II due to the lack of double shielding?
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/cardas-137mm-diameter-copper-multistrand-metre-p-8288.html?chooseimage=1
nAmpon needs to be connected to ground (the cable shield).
Where are the instructions for connecting nAmpon? (Or is that it?) I would want to have a front switch mute the amp in very much the way Steidl Guitars did (with the switch light off when the amp is muted). I don't yet understand how to achieve this.
Ground (the cable shield) might or might not be connected to the chassis (the Hypex recommended connection is to connect both the cable shield and pin 1 of the XLR to the chassis). If you have a metal shell XLR connector, the top (shell) pin will be connected to the chassis anyway through the metal contact between the XLR shell and chassis.
Ok so cable shield (and nAmpon) to pin 1 and pin 1 to chassis. Leave the top pin alone. Keep it simple. Because I'm a bit of a Cardas fan I may use these:
http://www.thecableco.com/Product/CM-XLR-F-Chassis (despite the rhodium)
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using something like Cardas 15.5AWG litz wire for internal AC wiring would not technically conform to Class II due to the lack of double shielding?
As long as you can ensure the litz wire doesn't make contact with the metal case you should be OK. You could use spacers, or a separate, insulated sub-chassis.
Independent of the Class II issue, I am not sure litz wire is such a good idea. Litz wire has a higher inductance than ordinary stranded wire, and for something like the nc400/smps600 you probably want the lowest possible inductance. Litz wire is good for conducting frequencies in the 1 MHz range - but with the nc400/smps600, you want to attenuate, not accentuate, anything above 50/60 Hz.
Where are the instructions for connecting nAmpon? (Or is that it?)
Pretty much, yes. Formally I guess it is specified in the NC400 data sheet, under 8.3 "Pulling nAMPON low enables the amplifier" and table 3 specifying logical high as 2.65-3.6V and logical low as -0.3-0.5V, with a 27K pull-up to 3.3V. Thus grounding the nAMPON enables the amplifier. Ground is different from safety earth.
I would want to have a front switch mute the amp in very much the way Steidl Guitars did (with the switch light off when the amp is muted). I don't yet understand how to achieve this.
I suggest using a double pole changeover (DPDT) switch, with one pole for the nAMPON signal and another for the light. Another possibility is using a relay.
Ok so cable shield (and nAmpon) to pin 1 and pin 1 to chassis. Leave the top pin alone. Keep it simple.
Agree.
Because I'm a bit of a Cardas fan I may use these:
http://www.thecableco.com/Product/CM-XLR-F-Chassis (despite the rhodium)
Fine if you like bling :)
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As long as you can ensure the litz wire doesn't make contact with the metal case you should be OK. You could use spacers, or a separate, insulated sub-chassis.
Independent of the Class II issue, I am not sure litz wire is such a good idea. Litz wire has a higher inductance than ordinary stranded wire, and for something like the nc400/smps600 you probably want the lowest possible inductance. Litz wire is good for conducting frequencies in the 1 MHz range - but with the nc400/smps600, you want to attenuate, not accentuate, anything above 50/60 Hz.
Any particular recommendations for a quality build? (I live in the UK)
Pretty much, yes. Formally I guess it is specified in the NC400 data sheet, under 8.3 "Pulling nAMPON low enables the amplifier" and table 3 specifying logical high as 2.65-3.6V and logical low as -0.3-0.5V, with a 27K pull-up to 3.3V. Thus grounding the nAMPON enables the amplifier. Ground is different from safety earth.
Thanks. I'm new to this sort of DIY. I will read the sheets again and try to understand this better. Presumably a mute switch simply lifts this ground for disable?
I suggest using a double pole changeover (DPDT) switch, with one pole for the nAMPON signal and another for the light. Another possibility is using a relay.
I very much like the look of what Steidl deployed with the light part of the switch itself. He used a part similar to the Bulgin MP0045/1E2BL012. http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/57/Bulgin_2010_p193-15602.pdf It's a DPCO switch which I believe is similar in practice (?). (I note his point about needing a resistor because of the higher voltage.)
Gotta have a little bling... :D
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Any particular recommendations for a quality build? (I live in the UK)
For the AC wiring, my recommendation is just decent 2.5 mm copper-cored AC wiring cable. The effect of the length of wire inside the amp case is rather insignificant compared to the run from the IEC plug to your local AC supply transformer through the house wiring...
Presumably a mute switch simply lifts this ground for disable?
Yes - the active pull-up will pull it up to 3.3 V (and thus disable the amp) if unconnected (as many of us discovered when we first tried our amps and wondered why there was no sound :) ).
I very much like the look of what Steidl deployed with the light part of the switch itself. He used a part similar to the Bulgin MP0045/1E2BL012. http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/57/Bulgin_2010_p193-15602.pdf It's a DPCO switch which I believe is similar in practice (?). (I note his point about needing a resistor because of the higher voltage.)
I assume you would use the switch as a mute switch, rather than to switch the AC - in the latter case I would be concerned about the 3A rating of the switch.
Yes, a DPCO is perfect fr your use - one pole for the mute, the other for the light.
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I assume you would use the switch as a mute switch, rather than to switch the AC - in the latter case I would be concerned about the 3A rating of the switch.
Yes, a DPCO is perfect fr your use - one pole for the mute, the other for the light.
Correct. Not sure I see a need for turning off the AC. Thanks for all the help.
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Correct. Not sure I see a need for turning off the AC.
I did put in an AC switch, but on the back - only use it if going away for a longer time, or in case of a thunderstorm.
Thanks for all the help.
Sure! Good luck with the build!
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From the "Show us your N-Core thread"...
Maybe something like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=63032)
Doesn't this mean the light is off when the amp is on? I understand that nAmpon needs to be connected to chassis in order for the amp to be working (otherwise it is muted). When the left connection is made nAmpon is connected to ground but the light is off. Or am I reading this wrong?
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Doesn't this mean the light is off when the amp is on? I understand that nAmpon needs to be connected to chassis in order for the amp to be working (otherwise it is muted). When the left connection is made nAmpon is connected to ground but the light is off. Or am I reading this wrong?
When the switch is in the "normal" position, C1 is connected to NC1, and the amp is on (nAmpon is connected to ground), and C2 is connected to NC2, so the LED is on (aux power fed to the LED "+"). In the other switch position, C1 is connected to NO1 and the amp is muted, and C2 is connected to NO2, and the LED is off.
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hello friends
im new here on the forum, but i like it a lot. very many smart people here, and a lot of good advice for a beginner.
i am going to build a ncore400 stereo power amplifier, and need some advice. i have ordered most of what i need, but im missing one part. i want the poweramp to have two sets of balanced xlr inputs. one will be from my pioneer lx86 receivers preout, for my fronts, and one directly from my oppo 103, using its xlr out.
i need a switch between them, it only needs these 2 positions, and hopefully dont break the bank
im thinking in the 40-100$ range.
i will put it in the back, for short cables, and use a extention from a button in the front.
i have no idea what to look for in the switch information to find a suitable one, only that it should be a shorting type.
i would really appreciate any help. maybe there is a product in the RS catalog i could use? i have a account there, and they are very fast to deliver.
kind regards
alf david
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how about gold point selectors:
http://www.goldpt.com/selector.html
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how about gold point selectors
Are they the shorting type? That was pretty much the only criteria the OP specified...
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i will put it in the back, for short cables, and use a extention from a button in the front.
So that means it would have to be a rotary switch - I would have used a rocker switch. 2-position make-before-break rotary switches are somewhat rare, as rotary switches tend to have more than 2 positions.
Another possibility is to use a relay.
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Hi guys
I have been looking around, and do find some elma switches, and others that would do the job. Some of Those you can put stops on, so you can have from 2 to 10-11 ways.
But from what i understand, i need a 2 way, 4 pole mbb, if i want rotary switch. Is this correct?
I have ordered a cheap 2 way, 4 pole switch to test it out, and then i can upgrade it later, when i get the other things up and running.
Im ordering a black aluminium chassis from china, rounded corners, full width and depth, 80 mm high, 10mm front, sides and back, 5mm top and bottom. On/off switch from hypex, and good quality xlr, iec, speaker posts.
Im really looking forward to build this, and maybe if things work well, and the sound is good, i will get 2 more and bridge them, i should have place enough.
Maybe my pioneer lx86 will do a better job with the rest of the channels to, when it dont have to drive the fronts.
Alf david
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from what i understand, i need a 2 way, 4 pole mbb, if i want rotary switch. Is this correct?
Yes, if you are using a differential/balanced setup. If you are doing unbalanced, you can get away with a 2-pole switch, but I would definitely recommend you keep things balanced as much as possible.
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Sorry if this has been answered but I couldn't find the answer.......
When ordering from hypex what do I need.
Nc400
Smps600
Signal cable? Or is this included in amp module?
Thanks
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Sorry if this has been answered but I couldn't find the answer.......
When ordering from hypex what do I need.
Nc400
Smps600
Signal cable? Or is this included in amp module?
Thanks
All cables come with the modules so just order them and you're good to go. :thumb:
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It's interesting to come back to this after some time and re-read the linear PSU debate that began on pages 34/35. For the NC400 what are the required power supply voltages and current capabilities?
I guess Dave Reich at Theta Digital would beg to differ with respect to whether it's worth investing in a linear power supply for the NC1200 module...?
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For the NC400 what are the required power supply voltages and current capabilities?
Main supply voltage should be between +-35 and +-75 V. The Hypex SMPS has overcurrent protection at 7 A.
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Ok so +/- voltages anywhere within that range? Other voltage needs? Standby etc?
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Ok so +/- voltages anywhere within that range? Other voltage needs? Standby etc?
Yes to both - the other voltages are specified in the nc400 data sheet, at http://www.hypex.nl/downloads/product-downloads.html (http://www.hypex.nl/downloads/product-downloads.html)
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Hello,
I am new to the forum. I am planning two build monoblocks, and I am looking for advice. For each monoblock, I am thinking of using two cases, one for the SMPS and one for the NC400. To have a compact layout, the two cases would be stacked, with the NC400 on top and a hole to let the umbilical connector through.
Any reason to avoid this configuration? EMI from the SMPS could affect the NC400 above it? There would be two layers of aluminum between the two components.
Dario
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Any reason to avoid this configuration?
Yes, Bruno says it will not do anything.
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Any reason to avoid this configuration?
No reason to avoid it - it should be perfectly OK. As stated by jtwrace, Bruno has specifically said it is OK.
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There were a couple of recent listings on the AC trading post of used finished Ncore 400s for sale.
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No reason to avoid it - it should be perfectly OK. As stated by jtwrace, Bruno has specifically said it is OK.
Actually, I read @jtwrace's comment to imply that while it don't hurt to do it like this, it won't cause an improvement. e.g. if you like the look of separate cases, great... otherwise, just put them in once case and save money/time/space.
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So we are in total agreement.
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Actually, I read @jtwrace's comment to imply that while it don't hurt to do it like this, it won't cause an improvement. e.g. if you like the look of separate cases, great... otherwise, just put them in once case and save money/time/space.
This is true. :)
So we are in total agreement.
As usual. ;)
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This is true. :)
As usual. ;)
;)
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I am wondering of you guys could shed some light on something that I have been wondering for some time.
I want to re-connect a pair of subwoofers to my system, which have been idle since living with the nCore monoblock amps for a while. I have traditionally preferred the high level inputs on the sub (second run of speaker cables from amp outputs to high level inputs of sub). The reasons for this are beyond the nature of my post. However, I have read a bit about "issues" with connecting digital amplifiers in this manner. I have surmised that this has something to do with potential relative to ground on the outputs, but I would be pretending if I really understood it. I know that REL modified their subwoofer cables to address this.
Short question is this: does anyone know if there may be problems using the high level ouputs of nCore to feed subwoofers? If there is any possible issue, I'll just switch to using a second pair of line level outputs from my pre-amp.
Thanks for your input.
Ryan
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I do not think there should be any problem using high level inputs on subs the normal way with Ncore, but to be certain I would send Hypex an e-mail asking about it. The output stage of the Ncore amps are essentially ground referenced: the black speaker terminal is ground, and I do not recall there being any potential above ground.
This was a problem with the ICEPower amps, as they sat around 40 volts away from G (but it could be dealt with as well by adding some caps), and balanced output amps need to the sub high level cable to hooked up to + and the amp G (not -), but Ncore is single ended output.
I am not sure, so ask Hypex, but I am now curious and will go and measure the Ncore now...
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I am not sure, so ask Hypex, but I am now curious and will go and measure the Ncore now...
This is yet ANOTHER lesson that I should just suck it up and buy a voltmeter. Nonethless, I am intrigued by what you find. In addition, I'll take your advice and ping Hypex on the matter. Going the line level out from the pre-amp would not be a bad option, but I understand that in some pre-amplifiers this unbalances the balanced outputs if they are in use (I use the balanced outputs to drive the nCores). I am checking with Hegel to see their advice on this as well (I use their P20).
Ryan
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Pretty quick feedback from Hypex...
"Our amps have the speaker negative at ground potential. To the best of my knowledge it should be no problem connecting an NC400 to the high level inputs of a REL subwoofer and I've never heard of a situation where it lead to any problems."
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Yup, as I expected. I prefer running subs from the amp connection as well.
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after reading everything in this subforum i'm very interested in purchasing, or at least demoing these nc400 based amps. that being said, why are there so many for sale? if they were as good as all the rave reviews, wouldn't people keep them instead of selling them?
a second question, how do they compare to the "class d audio" SDS amps?
thanks!
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after reading everything in this subforum i'm very interested in purchasing, or at least demoing these nc400 based amps. that being said, why are there so many for sale? if they were as good as all the rave reviews, wouldn't people keep them instead of selling them?
People love to try new things and usually perceive "different" as "better". The data doesn't lie though. They're excellent!
a second question, how do they compare to the "class d audio" SDS amps?
thanks!
Money aside, no comparison.
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why are there so many for sale? if they were as good as all the rave reviews, wouldn't people keep them instead of selling them?
For some people the actual building is the fun - once they are done, they want to move on. Some build them specifically for sale/profit. Then you have the people who discover that a neutral and transparent amplifier isn't actually for them - a lot of the high-end seems to be about a specific "sound" these days. And then we have the people who get slightly disappointed when they find out that even an excellent amp doesn't sound that much different from a merely "good" amp, and the real mileage in terms of improvement comes from the speakers and the room.
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Hello, I'm fairly new to this forum. Can anyone tell me if Hypex is still producing/selling the NC400
and associated switching power supply? These items are listed as "out of stock" on their web site,
which doesn't appear to have contact info other than a phone number (I'm in the US).
Thanks in advance.
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Hello, I'm fairly new to this forum. Can anyone tell me if Hypex is still producing/selling the NC400
and associated switching power supply? These items are listed as "out of stock" on their web site,
which doesn't appear to have contact info other than a phone number (I'm in the US).
Thanks in advance.
"NC400 -- Out of stock -- Available in Week 25"
I guess that means first week of July. http://www.hypexshop.com/DetailServlet?detailID=4466 (http://www.hypexshop.com/DetailServlet?detailID=4466)
The SMPS600 (http://www.hypexshop.com/DetailServlet?detailID=4664) seems to be in stock.
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Hello, I'm fairly new to this forum. Can anyone tell me if Hypex is still producing/selling the NC400
and associated switching power supply? These items are listed as "out of stock" on their web site,
which doesn't appear to have contact info other than a phone number (I'm in the US).
You could try sales@hypex.nl or support@hypex.nl. It seems Hypex does the modules in batches.
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Thank you much, Gentlemen. Given that the latest "news" on their web site is from 2013,
I found myself wondering whether any of the information was current. In any event, I have
sent them off an e-mail asking for further details and will publish anything of interest here.
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I purchased a pair of NC400's and a SMPS1200A400 on 3/25/15. The order was placed via their website and all items were in stock at that time.
Looks like they must of run out of stock sometime in the month of April.