BRYSTON BDP-1/2 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK/REVIEWS

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caberxx

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Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #480 on: 1 Feb 2011, 04:04 pm »
Not that I want to fan the flames, but I have a simple question re the USB cable debate.  If the quality of USB cable from the HDD to the BDP-1 impacts the quality of the music, then doesn't it also stand to reason that the quality of the USB cable from the PC to the HDD during the ripping phase would also impact the quality of the music?  After all, each cable serves exactly the same purpose.  So if you're using a standard computer cable to feed the HDD when ripping, you have already "degraded" the music.  How would an expensive USB cable from the HDD to the BDP reverse that?

terrycym

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #481 on: 1 Feb 2011, 04:07 pm »
I believe the motherboard used in the BDP-1 only supports USB2
Thereagain, if you're copying stuff to the SSD from your PC and your PC supports USB3 then getting music onto the SSD will be quicker - much like a digital camera & compact flash cards (but in reverse!)

I recall a discussion on this board where James said that USB 3.0 was not required because 2.0 was fast enough for transfer of music files.  I agree but it may have been faster for updating the file index for the BDP-1 but we will not know that because the BDP-1 uses the 2.0 protocol.  As for SSDs, they offer the advantage of no physical noise and speed.  Today, most external SSDs are USB 3.0 protocol and that requires a different connector on the SSD end.  The only cables currently available are the cheap, made in China variety.  Is that "good enough"?  I have no idea, but I do know that as soon as an "audiophile quality" USB 3.0 cable is available from one of the known high quality cable manufacturers, I will try it. 

Tony

terrycym

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #482 on: 1 Feb 2011, 04:15 pm »
I've read the same too (but the articles were quite old - don't know if MLCs have improved since then)
I've just checked the prices of SLCs and the ones I've found are horribly expensive compared to MLCs.
The ones I've found are enterprise grade though rather than consumer grade



Keep in mind when looking for SSDs, one should select the higher reliable single-layer cell SSD over the multi-layer cell SSD designs.    SLCs have a 10x longer life, consumes less power and typically a faster design.   Yes it's a little more but keeping those bits safe is key. 


BrysTony

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #483 on: 1 Feb 2011, 05:01 pm »
I've read the same too (but the articles were quite old - don't know if MLCs have improved since then)
I've just checked the prices of SLCs and the ones I've found are horribly expensive compared to MLCs.
The ones I've found are enterprise grade though rather than consumer grade

I purchased an OCZ Enyo external SSD that uses MLC flash technology.  OCZ claims a Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) of 1.5 million hours.  I don't know how they analyzed the failure rates and arrived at that MTBF but it is 171 years of operation and certainly indicates that reliability is not a problem.

Tony

werd

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #484 on: 1 Feb 2011, 07:24 pm »
.

3) Because the Flash/Thumb drive has no cable, it is reasonable to use this as a reference. In the (impossible) event that a USB cable employed with the BDP-1 does change the sound then it can only be adding colouration compared to the Flash/Thumb drive reference. In this (still impossible) event, you may actually prefer the changed sound, but then the cable is acting as a tone control and you are no longer listening to the source the way the musician/producer intended. i.e. it is no longer faithful to the original.

So, one more time, I challenge you to attempt to prove your point, and incidentally prove that you may have something of value between your ears.

Regards

Russell


Wally

This will be the last time i make post to you. If you stop stroking your own ego and read my posts you will find my first post references the usb stick supplied by Bryston as reference. For the short time it was available to me it was beyond obvious of the sonic drawbacks of throwing a generic usb between  my omega hd and the bdp. Put your comb down and go find my post yourself its all there.

As far as proving my point. I am not sure i know what you want me to prove to you.  It could be that if you can't hear a difference with a usb cable your gear past the bdp is probably a lot like your ego.... junk and hard to listen to. Or  maybe you want me to prove that you need to learn how to listen to a stereo..... idk.

But what ever it is please don't tell me. This has turned unbearable.

skunark

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Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #485 on: 1 Feb 2011, 07:34 pm »
I purchased an OCZ Enyo external SSD that uses MLC flash technology.  OCZ claims a Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) of 1.5 million hours.  I don't know how they analyzed the failure rates and arrived at that MTBF but it is 171 years of operation and certainly indicates that reliability is not a problem.

Tony

It can all boil down to how OCZ feels the end-user will use the product.   But a 1.5 million hours MBTF and a 3 year warranty should indicate OCZ has a marketing department and probably not a legal department.   

SLC will start to fail after 100,000 writes where MLC will start to fail after 10,000 writes.  It's not as bad as it sounds as it's typically a write to the smallest writable block that will fail.   Without googling the flash chip they use internally, if you assumed that a writable block was small (say 4KB), then for a 64GB that could hold 2000 uncompressed lossless files (12k blocks per 50MB wave file) that works out to twenty million transfers for the best case before a user would see a failure. 

That sounds pretty good, but the nature of HDDs and file systems indicates that you will most likely start to see failures much early than that.   Mostly due to the fact that that the filesystem keeps a tables that tracks the files on the drive, these tables will be updated on every write and that organization will mostly determine how long the drive will operate before the first failure.   So every file copied, tag update, album artwork update, etc will decrease the life of the drive.

Also, if you notice most SSD manufactures tell you to not defrag SSDs for two reasons: 1) its not needed 2) reduces the life of the drive.   But keep in mind like HDD, SSDs will also use error correction techniques to extend the life even further (just like HDD) and just reviewing a few of the OCZ drives, appears they enable 512/24 byte ECC technique with their controllers providing more longevity with the drives.

It's hard to put an actual, real-life number on how long a MLC drive will last and as long as you keep adequate backups, you can save some cash on the SSD and buy a more expensive USB cable.   But if I was going to spend your dollars for you, the SLC drive IMO would actually provide a benefit over an expensive USB cable as any data failure there would be audio gaps in the music.

To me a key point of the BDP-1 is to avoid the short comings of isochronous USB audio and you are able to drive your DAC using the AES connector.   You are essentially migrating to a worse case jitter of 1 miliseconds to tens of picoseconds.

Werd, if your USB drive isn't self powered (i.e. wall wart) and if your USB cables are of different length, then perhaps you are hearing noise from the power supply.  Leakage loss could be used to explain that.  Probably an easy test is to determine this is to use a UPS on all your gear.  That is a bit extreme though.   If the drive is bus-powered then perhaps it's placement of the drive?



sfraser

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #486 on: 1 Feb 2011, 08:32 pm »
Good rule of thumb with any type of hard drive is "not if it will fail but when it will fail" budget for 2 drives and make a backup.

saveloy

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #487 on: 1 Feb 2011, 11:21 pm »
BrysTony, can you please tell me if your OCZ Enyo SSD came pre-formatted in Fat32?

Kyri

James Tanner

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Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #488 on: 1 Feb 2011, 11:29 pm »
BrysTony, can you please tell me if your OCZ Enyo SSD came pre-formatted in Fat32?

Kyri

The SSD's  I have are NTSF but I reformat them to Fat32.
Most USB Thumbdrives come formatted Fat32 and most USB Hardrives are formated NTSF
I believe the MAC units are OS but not sure on that?

james

BrysTony

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #489 on: 1 Feb 2011, 11:35 pm »
BrysTony, can you please tell me if your OCZ Enyo SSD came pre-formatted in Fat32?

Kyri

Kyri,

The OCZ Enyo SSD comes un-formatted.  Formatting is easy to do -- it even comes with format instructions for both PC and Mac if you need them.  Using an iMac I formatted mine FAT32 and it works perfectly with the BDP-1.

Tony

saveloy

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #490 on: 1 Feb 2011, 11:37 pm »
Thank you the both of you.  I know some SSDs come pre-formatted in Fat 32.
I'm a little concerned using Windows to re-format, since I have read it can be a bit of an arse!
I'll find out soon enough.

ricko01

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #491 on: 1 Feb 2011, 11:43 pm »
As someone who consults at the highest levels of computer infrastructure (30+ years) with corporate computer systems that support the databases that run these corporations (and I am talking Fortune 50 (that’s fifty) companies here), we internally have no debate about the type of Ethernet cables, SAN fibre  channel cables etc that are used.

And we arent talking low end Windows or Linux servers... we are talking multi-multi-million dollar Unix systems with downtime requirements measured in minutes a year.

Robust and reliable is the benchmark for corporate infrastructure cables (with the caveat that the highest quality glass is needed for SAN fibre  channel cables given the high bandwidths/run lengths they need to support but in this USB cable debate we are talking copper)

Once you have those parameters squared away (Robust and reliable) ... the computer infrastructure components don’t care if you use long crystal copper or you use a special Dialectic or twice the number of strands or some special helix winding pattern etc.

You can string Ethernet cable 50m or 100m with no signal loss.

Yes, USB is a different protocol , but underneath fibre channel/Ethernet/USB are all packet based protocols.. its just the resilience  of the sender/receiver to packet loss/retry that’s different.

USB has a very limited cable distance without a repeater (5m max)  but the point is, the packet sender/receiver don’t perceive any differences on cable quality... with reference to two cables that aren’t broken in some way.

If you plug in a cable and the sender/receiver can handshake reliably, job done.

So in my view, high priced USB cables are a con and they would not contribute to any SQ difference.

Peter

VOLKS

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #492 on: 1 Feb 2011, 11:48 pm »
Ahhh yes the classic debate over cables....be it XLR's,Fiber,RCA's,Speaker Cable and now....Ethernet cable ...........it will go on and on and on and on.....ect.... :lol: ....gotta love it.

ricko01

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #493 on: 2 Feb 2011, 12:01 am »
Ahhh yes the classic debate over cables....be it XLR's,Fiber,RCA's,Speaker Cable and now....Ethernet cable ...........it will go on and on and on and on.....ect.... :lol: ....gotta love it.

Well... I think you have to divorce the protocol from the cable to some degree and also analogue verses digital.

For example, if  BNC SP/DIF needs 75ohm's to be seen by the sender/reciever then yes a cable thats 40ohm WILL affect sound quailty to some degree and yes RFI rejection also comes into play so there is some requirement that cables address this but after that point it becomes diminshing returns relative to cost.

I am not going to get into a debate relative to AUDIO cables but USB cables are not audio cables... and the sender/receivers and the software used inside these sender/recievers has more to do with the quality than the cables.

There are 100's of companies making USB sender/recievers and to me the real debate over USB should be the sender/reciever quality NOT the cables.

Peter


saveloy

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #494 on: 2 Feb 2011, 12:21 am »
The first magazine review has appeared here in England, in Hi-fi Choice magazine.
A 5 star review.  However, the reviewer wasn't convinced with the concept.  Suggesting that streaming ability would not have compromised sound quality. 
He actually states that the sound reproduction sits slightly behind CD quality.  Until he transplanted the BDA-1 for an Antelope Zodiac + DAC. 
So he was less impressed with the BDA-1. 

James Tanner

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Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #495 on: 2 Feb 2011, 12:30 am »
Hi savloy

Thanks for the info on the review - so the BDP-1 got 5 starts but only with the prefered DAC?

james

Napalm

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #496 on: 2 Feb 2011, 12:35 am »
I am patiently waiting for the BDAP-1 i.e. a BDP with internal DAC. Where the "BDP" part pumps bits from the drive into a memory buffer and the "BDA" part takes them from the buffer driven by a precision clock.

Nap.  :green:

Napalm

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #497 on: 2 Feb 2011, 12:41 am »
Werd, this is the absolutely best USB cable for your application:



Nap.  :wink:

werd

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #498 on: 2 Feb 2011, 12:42 am »
Ahhh yes the classic debate over cables....be it XLR's,Fiber,RCA's,Speaker Cable and now....Ethernet cable ...........it will go on and on and on and on.....ect.... :lol: ....gotta love it.

 :lol:

I know.....whether its analogue or digital its always goes like this. You got one side who will have some good experience  with cable and have developed a taste or a cable strategy. So they are willing to experiment. VS. The people who are dead set in their dogma and have zilch for experience  incoporating a cable strategy. Maybe been burned once or twice in the past by trying to insert a cable quality(brand)that clearly was not synergistic. So its a no go from then on and eveybody is going to hear about it......  :lol:

saveloy

Re: BRYSTON BDP-1 DIGITAL PLAYER FEEDBACK
« Reply #499 on: 2 Feb 2011, 12:43 am »
James,

The review struck me as contradictory.  The same magazine reviewed the BDA-1 at release, but not the same reviewer.  Who loved it, suggesting it was a 'high end' product.
So yes, it does seem that the BDP-1 earnt its 5 stars with the aid of the other DAC. 
Napalm, that is something the reviewer suggested, citing a lack of any drawbacks.