AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The HiRez Music Circle => Topic started by: Echolane on 19 Nov 2022, 07:17 am
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I had to buy a new CD player about five years ago and I got talked out of buying one that was also SACD capable. My dealer is a bit of a purist and he insisted that CD only players were better and SACD wasn’t worth it. And then about two years ago I got into streaming and the deal I got on my DAC was just way too good to pass up, and I mean WAY too good to pass up, so even though it doesn’ t do DSD, I bought it anyway.
Meanwhile, I’ve managed to accumulate about 40 SACDs and while I can play the hybrid layer, I’ve never heard the SACD version. So I looked up the price of SACD players and they seem to start at around $3000. Ouch, that’s quite a lot of money just to hear about 30 SACDs. Is DSD worth it?
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I would go a cd/sacd player imo.
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There is much skill to mixing and mastering music so regardless of format there are other things which impact how a disc will sound. $3k is a lot to spend for a few dozen SACDs. I'm no longer into disc playback for many years. I have transports in various systems mainly for video and if someone comes over with a CD every 4 years or so they can hear it. Any electromechanical device over a period of time can also go bad and the drive mechanisms for disc spinners like everything else changes over time. A particular disc spinner has software written for the particular drive used and when that drive is no longer produced, it will mean a new player.
Over the years DACs used, either outboard or in players, also have advances. So if you're strictly into disc playback at some point in the future, you may wish, assuming your player has a digital output, to a separate DAC at some point in the future. I have files of all resolutions, including many which are higher resolution than CDs (PCM, DSD, etc.). So when you think you are ready to move to a better DAC than the one built into your current CD player, you can always buy a DAC (for less than $3k) and rip the SACDs to files and get a small fanless PC running something like JRiver and play them back.
So I would say as long as you enjoy what you have now, keep it. Thinks about a DAC at some point and audition some, whether at a friend's place or a dealer.
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....So I looked up the price of SACD players and they seem to start at around $3000. Ouch, that’s quite a lot of money just to hear about 30 SACDs. Is DSD worth it?
Not for me, and especially if your discs are older analogue recordings re-released on SACD. If the recordings were recorded in DSD end to end, without conversion or manipulation and you plan on increasing that collection, then maybe.
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there are a few SACD players on Amazon for a few hundred $.
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I will add where SACD shines is in multi-channel playback, the only true multi-channel format as far as I know. I have two Sony SACD players and sure didn't spend 3 grand on them. The problem is my older player is the HDMI is not compatible with newer HDMI inputs so you'll have to go with interconnects most likely.
MY experience with the CD Hybrid layer is that it is not the proper thickness for CD Redbook playback so you're not hearing what the CD really should sound like unless you transfer this layer to a cd-r that has the correct Redbook thickness, it makes a difference believe it or not.
If you are not going to listen in multi-channel I would not bother with it. :smoke:
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Is DSD worth it?
No... but it will sound different. DSD is slightly less sharp sounding, some say more analog. Great for classical, soft rock, easy listening but PCM will sound more exciting for rock-n-roll and electric blues. 16 bit/44.1 kHz upsampled to 384 kHz PCM can sound much better than DSD64, which is what I do, 44.1 kHz sounds flat in comparison. I don't bother upsampling DSD64, even though I can.
All the variables involved in SACD playback will determine the playback quality. First is sample rate: a SACD is DSD64. Rip a SACD and you get a DSD64 file.
"... DSD is not magically better than its rivals. A ‘standard’ DSD file- often referred to as DSD64 is roughly equivalent to a sample rate of 24/88.2kHz."
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/blog/what-dsd (https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/blog/what-dsd)
Second is the DAC. Is the DAC inside the SACD player better than a stand alone DAC? Depends on price. The hybrid layer may sound better through a stand alone DAC.
Using HDMI is another can-of-worms. My Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player will play SACD disks. The Anthem AVM60 surround processor HDMI input doesn't process DSD so even when using HDMI I'm stuck listening to the hybrid layer. Even though the Anthem is an excellent multi-channel movie processor the DAC sucks when compared to a quality 2-channel DAC.
My solution is probably a lot more involved than you are thinking about. I use the Oppo to rip each SACD disk to a .dsf music file. Each music folder is about 2 GB and behaves just like a FLAC file, it is labeled, indexed, and has cover art. The DSD64 music files are played using a homemade music server feeding a Holo Audio DAC which is able to play DSD files natively without first converting to PCM. Most DACs convert DSD to PCM (or upsample PCM to DSD for noise shaping then convert back to PCM behind the scenes).
So unless you get a real expensive SACD player or play the ripped SACD files using a DAC that natively plays a DSD64 file you will never hear high quality DSD. All you get is a down sampled file equivalent to the hybrid layer.
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CD and SACD are the end of game to me, all that I dont need is a new format a computer server or streamer, SACD format are plenty of quality and lots of space to music.
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Agree with other comments you don't have to spend $3K for an SACD player although players at this price and above might perform and sound better. I have no experience with them in this price range however. Check out the link below for others more modestly priced. Marantz used to make one much less expensive than shown here but apparently they must have discontinued those models.
https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/disc-player/?_bc_fsnf=1&Player%20Format=SACD/CD&sort=priceasc
My experience is a dedicated CD transport will outperform (with redbook cd) the SACD or Universal players I've owned which includes Oppo 103, Oppo 203, and a couple of older Sony Universal players but don't recall their model #'s. YMMV as the saying goes.
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Not for me, and especially if your discs are older analogue recordings re-released on SACD. If the recordings were recorded in DSD end to end, without conversion or manipulation and you plan on increasing that collection, then maybe.
That is a point I never considered. I know a half dozen or so are treasurable recordings of the past, so they are definitely not pure DSD. I will look through the rest and see what I find, but that certainly raises the bar on whether a purchase is worth it.
I’m really annoyed that neither of my two expensive players will do DSD. I went ahead with the purchase of my DAC because I kept hearing “we live in a PCM world, forget about DSD”. It is certainly true, but when I hear that pure DSD sounds like good analog I can’t help but be interested. I keep thinking my tube amp would make an agreeable match and I’d get wonderful sound quality.
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I will add where SACD shines is in multi-channel playback, the only true multi-channel format as far as I know. I have two Sony SACD players and sure didn't spend 3 grand on them. The problem is my older player is the HDMI is not compatible with newer HDMI inputs so you'll have to go with interconnects most likely.
MY experience with the CD Hybrid layer is that it is not the proper thickness for CD Redbook playback so you're not hearing what the CD really should sound like unless you transfer this layer to a cd-r that has the correct Redbook thickness, it makes a difference believe it or not.
If you are not going to listen in multi-channel I would not bother with it. :smoke:
I’m glad I asked! THANKS for pointing this out to me. I am NOT into multi-channel. I will almost certainly remain a two channel dinosaur forever.
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Agree with other comments you don't have to spend $3K for an SACD player although players at this price and above might perform and sound better. I have no experience with them in this price range however. Check out the link below for others more modestly priced. Marantz used to make one much less expensive than shown here but apparently they must have discontinued those models.
https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/disc-player/?_bc_fsnf=1&Player%20Format=SACD/CD&sort=priceasc
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My experience (or my impression) is that one usually has to pay more to get the best sounding parts inside audio gear. You can pay almost nothing for capacitors up to several hundred dollars for the best. That goes for other parts too. I don’t have the kind of money to pay for super expensive gear, but I do try to stretch for mid priced equipment in hopes of getting good sound. And I will often go for used.
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Get a used Sony or Pioneer bluray?SACD player on ebay for $40-$75. Find a model that's in the ripping SACDs thread at hifihaven: https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/
You can do a simple hack to the disc player that allows you to rip the DSD layer of your SACD and play it back as a DSD file from your server. You can use the above player for playback of discs, but I'd just reserve it for ripping SACDs. This will sound just as good as an expensive player and will save you big bucks.
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Get a used Sony or Pioneer bluray?SACD player on ebay for $40-$75. Find a model that's in the ripping SACDs thread at hifihaven: https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/
You can do a simple hack to the disc player that allows you to rip the DSD layer of your SACD and play it back as a DSD file from your server. You can use the above player for playback of discs, but I'd just reserve it for ripping SACDs. This will sound just as good as an expensive player and will save you big bucks.
I’ve read about this. Sounds like a great fix but I won’t be able to play it as DSD, so far as I understand anyway. That’s because my DAC doesn’t do DSD. I have a Berkeley Audio DAC Reference Series 2. As I mentioned, I hesitated to buy it because it doesn’t do DSD, but I bought it used for a fraction of its MSRP. It was too good a deal to pass up.
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I’ve read about this. Sounds like a great fix but I won’t be able to play it as DSD, so far as I understand anyway. That’s because my DAC doesn’t do DSD. I have a Berkeley Audio DAC Reference Series 2. As I mentioned, I hesitated to buy it because it doesn’t do DAD, but I bought it used for a fraction of its MSRP. It was too good a deal to pass up.
Once you have something ripped to a file, it can be converted by various programs. I have some downloads from DSD files converted to 24/176.4 or 24/88.2 PCM. I have some files where I have both the DSD file and 24/176.4 and one would be hard pressed to discern many, if any differences. Some people just want disc playback and I understand that. I never thought I'd leave physical media but about a dozen years back, give or take, I went to file playback and I'd never go back. My discs are in a closet and I try to buy downloads vs. physical media. I bought some CD storage boxes last year as I was running out of space in my furniture which holds my discs.
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I have a Berkeley Audio DAC Reference Series 2.
The $19,500 Berkeley looks like a very nice DAC. Comparing it's sound to an old, used $600 SACD player will probably be a disappointment even if you are finally listening to the Holy Grail SACD sound. As you figured out, a $2000-$3000 player will get you close.
The Berkekey Reference will decode all PCM resolutions up to 192/24. My question is how to get the higher resolutions into the Berkeley? Certainly not a CD or SACD player so I guess you will need the optional $1995 Berkeley Alpha USB USB-to-AES/EBU converter. No ripped hi-res or converted SACD files for you unless you get into computer audio. The Hollis Audio HAL MS-6 Music Server is much, much better than a noisy laptop and is only $450. The HAL and will send hi-res files to a USB/SPDIF converter then to your Berkeley. Someone here on AC must have an unused USB/SPDIF converter laying around, it doesn't need to be the Berkeley Alpha.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175173.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175173.0)
Robert Harley has some interesting comments in his TAS review of the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference Series 2:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-dac-reference-series-2/ (https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-dac-reference-series-2/)
"If you want to play DSD files you’ll need to convert those files to PCM in a computer."
"After I listened to a wide range of file resolutions through the Series 2, it struck me that the most impressive aspect of this DAC isn’t its all-out performance with 176.4kHz/24-bit files (which is spectacular), but what it can do with garden-variety CD files. The sound quality difference between CD and high-resolution sources is less stark through the Series 2 than through any other DAC I’ve heard. It’s surprising how good CD can sound when played back through a state-of-the-art system (CD ripped to an Aurender W20 and decoded by the Series 2 with the Berkeley Alpha USB converter)."
The Music Room has a Aurender W20 Network Streamer / Server; W-20; 12TB SSD; Silver for $7,009.17
https://tmraudio.com/components/music-servers-streamers/aurender-w20-network-streamer-server-w-20-12tb-ssd-silver/ (https://tmraudio.com/components/music-servers-streamers/aurender-w20-network-streamer-server-w-20-12tb-ssd-silver/)
"The Aurender W20 is in my experience the current state of the art in music servers. It excels in every parameter; its array of features is unmatched, the 12TB of available storage will accommodate virtually any library; its interface is wonderful and intuitive; and most importantly, it delivers sound quality unmatched by any other digital source I’ve heard. The W20 brought out the best in my system, delivering the greatest dimensionality, timbral purity, resolution, and freedom from hash I’ve heard from digital sources." -Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound
Go for it!
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The $19,500 Berkeley looks like a very nice DAC. Comparing it's sound to an old, used $600 SACD player will probably be a disappointment even if you are finally listening to the Holy Grail SACD sound. As you figured out, a $2000-$3000 player will get you close.
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Yes indeed, you have definitely decoded (pun intended) my reason for thinking a starting point for SACD Players would be about $3000.
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The Berkekey Reference will decode all PCM resolutions up to 192/24. My question is how to get the higher resolutions into the Berkeley? Certainly not a CD or SACD player so I guess you will need the optional $1995 Berkeley Alpha USB USB-to-AES/EBU converter.
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You really have my attention here. As it happens I do own the Alpha USB, another exceptionally good deal I lucked into. This time it was on a player that was used only a few days and had a nice but not spectacularly discounted price. I bought it to use at my desktop computer’s good audio system but was advised to put it with the Berkeley DAC. BUT….I’ve no idea why it would be useful in this SACD/DSD situation under discussion, so I’m all ears, please do explain.
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No ripped hi-res or converted SACD files for you unless you get into computer audio. The Hollis Audio HAL MS-6 Music Server is much, much better than a noisy laptop and is only $450. The HAL and will send hi-res files to a USB/SPDIF converter then to your Berkeley. Someone here on AC must have an unused USB/SPDIF converter laying around, it doesn't need to be the Berkeley Alpha.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175173.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175173.0)
Robert Harley has some interesting comments in his TAS review of the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference Series 2:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-dac-reference-series-2/ (https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-dac-reference-series-2/)
"If you want to play DSD files you’ll need to convert those files to PCM in a computer."
"After I listened to a wide range of file resolutions through the Series 2, it struck me that the most impressive aspect of this DAC isn’t its all-out performance with 176.4kHz/24-bit files (which is spectacular), but what it can do with garden-variety CD files. The sound quality difference between CD and high-resolution sources is less stark through the Series 2 than through any other DAC I’ve heard. It’s surprising how good CD can sound when played back through a state-of-the-art system (CD ripped to an Aurender W20 and decoded by the Series 2 with the Berkeley Alpha USB converter)."
The Music Room has a Aurender W20 Network Streamer / Server; W-20; 12TB SSD; Silver for $7,009.17
https://tmraudio.com/components/music-servers-streamers/aurender-w20-network-streamer-server-w-20-12tb-ssd-silver/ (https://tmraudio.com/components/music-servers-streamers/aurender-w20-network-streamer-server-w-20-12tb-ssd-silver/)
"The Aurender W20 is in my experience the current state of the art in music servers. It excels in every parameter; its array of features is unmatched, the 12TB of available storage will accommodate virtually any library; its interface is wonderful and intuitive; and most importantly, it delivers sound quality unmatched by any other digital source I’ve heard. The W20 brought out the best in my system, delivering the greatest dimensionality, timbral purity, resolution, and freedom from hash I’ve heard from digital sources." -Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound
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I agree with you that the Aurender is a very fine music server. I happen to have the Roon Nucleus going into the Audio Alchemy DMP-1 and then my Berkeley DAC.
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Go for it!
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Once you have something ripped to a file, it can be converted by various programs. I have some downloads from DSD files converted to 24/176.4 or 24/88.2 PCM. I have some files where I have both the DSD file and 24/176.4 and one would be hard pressed to discern many, if any differences. Some people just want disc playback and I understand that. I never thought I'd leave physical media but about a dozen years back, give or take, I went to file playback and I'd never go back. My discs are in a closet and I try to buy downloads vs. physical media. I bought some CD storage boxes last year as I was running out of space in my furniture which holds my discs.
It’s reassuring that you hear no discernible differences in different resolutions. It’s all too easy to go overboard on this issue.
I almost never play physical CDs anymore. Same for my LPs. Both CD player and turntable sit idle. Same goes for my VHS player and my Laser Disc player. Eventually, I will be forced to downsize and they will have to go. That’ll be a sad day.
All my CDs are ripped for my streaming obsession, stored in my ROON Nucleus. All that is sort of left out are the 30-40 SACDs that I can’t play as SACDs, though they are ripped and playable as hybrid.
My problem is what to do with the CDs and whether to buy more or depend on subscriptions entirely. My CDs are stored in all available furniture spaces. I’ve really only room for a few more. I should go through them all and set aside those that I can’t live without, like my opera CDs with libretto included. Of the rest, I’d have quite a pile of those I’ll probably not ever want to play again and dispose of the physical CD somehow. After that it’ll get harder. I won’t know exactly how I’ll work it out until I actually try to do this sorting out. As far as buying new, so far, if I really like something, I still want to own the CD. The plus side of that is I usually don’t feel the need to buy new, so I’ll look for that good but cheap used version. Even though I’m running out of places to store those CDs now!
All this chatter about what to do with CDs leaves a more difficult subject untouched which is what to do wirh all my LPS! AND Laser Discs and VHS tapes. And my overflowing DVD storage. It’s a problem now and eventually will be a bigger problem. I’m in my eighties and will eventually (almost certainly) find myself facing a downsizing issue. That’ll be a sad day!
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I happen to have the Roon Nucleus going into the Audio Alchemy DMP-1 and then my Berkeley DAC.
You already have almost everything you need.
The Audio Alchemy DMP-1 plays PCM up to 24/192
Roon can be set to automatically convert and play DSD64 to PCM so no need to mess with DSD to PCM conversion apps
https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/dsd-to-pcm-settings#Overview (https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/dsd-to-pcm-settings#Overview)
All you need to do is figure how to get those little copy protected DSD bits off the SACD and store them on your desktop computer, point Roon to the ripped music folder and it will take care of the rest.
As Firedog mentioned, you need an approved SACD player from the list
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/ (https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/)
The player has to have ethernet, hard wired is best. Boot the player with a FAT32 formatted thumb drive loaded with the free and legal SACDExtractGUI ripping software (you own the disk so you can copy it for home use). Look in the SACD player menu for the Server/IP address to enter into the ACDExtractGUI screen.
Start Here:
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/ (https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/)
Don't change the :2002 port address. The numbers before the 2002 is the IP address, they can change daily depending on their mood. DSF is the native DSD file format, don't worry about it or touch it.
(https://audiophilestyle.com/uploads/monthly_2018_10/1112942844_SACDExtractGUI(1).thumb.jpg.89d2dd8fc78273d6c95b522bee2770e3.jpg)
Google "SACDExtractGUI" for more info. Audiophile Style has a thread started by ted_b, the Moderator of this HiRes Music Circle
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/28569-sacd-ripping-using-an-oppo-or-pioneer-yes-its-true/#comments (https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/28569-sacd-ripping-using-an-oppo-or-pioneer-yes-its-true/#comments)
Ripping SACDs is fun and empowering. Then you can scour record stores and yard sales for SACD disks and get new Hi-Res music for practically nothing.
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And you are probably thinking "Can't I just plug the SACD player digital out into something?"
Nope, all you get is the hybrid layer. Only the HDMI out with the correct handshake gets the DSD stream. Cracking the copy protection and ripping is the only way to get those hi-res bits released from their silver coated prison.
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:D that 7000.00 streamer is big time. Who needs a collection anymore ? Might be time to dump the STUFF . But it's hard to let go. I could use a good transport ,, a dac to match. Seems CD players aren't as good as transports. :D
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And you are probably thinking "Can't I just plug the SACD player digital out into something?"
Nope, all you get is the hybrid layer. Only the HDMI out with the correct handshake gets the DSD stream. Cracking the copy protection and ripping is the only way to get those hi-res bits released from their silver coated prison.
This is not totally accurate, at least with the Oppo Players and presumably others that have analog outputs. It is possible to program and setup the Oppo so that DSD can be output via its analog outputs as well as sending a DSD via the HDMI outputs. At some point along the way the DSD signal has to be converted and that can be done either internally via the Oppo externally through a processor.
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It is possible to program and setup the Oppo so that DSD can be output via its analog outputs...
Maybe the Oppo BDP-105 has a better DAC and analog circuits than the BDP-103. I own the Oppo BDP-103 and the analog out sounds a lot worse compared to every DAC or processor I have ever owned so I never considered it as a hi-res option. Hi-fi into a soundbar maybe but certainly not what anyone would consider hi-res. The Oppo's Blu-ray HDMI sound is state-of-the-art.
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Maybe the Oppo BDP-105 has a better DAC and analog circuits than the BDP-103. I own the Oppo BDP-103 and the analog out sounds a lot worse compared to every DAC or processor I have ever owned so I never considered it as a hi-res option. Hi-fi into a soundbar maybe but certainly not what anyone would consider hi-res. The Oppo's Blu-ray HDMI sound is state-of-the-art.
Likewise I owned the 103 too, but sold it long ago and bought the 203 once it was introduced. Been far too long to really remember the quality output of the 103 via its analog outputs. However my recollection is it not being as poor as what you describe. There are so many settings in the menus on all of the Oppo outputs, analog, coax, HDMI etc it would be really easy to get tripped on them or overlook something which might provide the results you are getting. The industry has made all of this stuff far and away too complex and getting worse by the year.
It is important to to state if you are outputting via the HDMI outputs you are NOT utilizing the Oppo’s built in DAC chips, rather that is being passed on to the processor or what ever device is on the receiving end of the HDMI signal. Oppo did change the onboard DAC chips from the 103/105 models compared to the 203/205 models but its important to emphasize they are only used via the analog outputs when the conversion is done internally. In theory the 205 model has better DAC chip than the 203 but when Audioholics reviewed both players they found little to no difference with the quality of sound. Others may disagree of course.
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And you are probably thinking "Can't I just plug the SACD player digital out into something?"
Nope, all you get is the hybrid layer. Only the HDMI out with the correct handshake gets the DSD stream. Cracking the copy protection and ripping is the only way to get those hi-res bits released from their silver coated prison.
My head is spinning with possibilities! First, let me say a big thank you for this terrific information on how to rip my SACD collection.
But now for a dumb question before I dig into all the details,,. Suppose I buy a good Oppo, one from the 103 up to the 105D.
- Can I connect it in to my stereo system via RCA composite cables as though it were a CD player and rip without access to a TV display?? Or, just play SACD discs and get the SACD layer? Or will I run into the handshake problem you describe and get only the hybrid layer?
Janet
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1st - do you have a Blu-ray player? Is it on the list?
2nd - you can use RCA cables into your preamp but you will be listening to a $5 DAC inside the Blu-ray player instead of a $19,500 DAC
3rd - because of copy protection all digital outputs: coax and optical is limited to the hybrid layer. HDMI has the hi-res DSD64, plugging it into a receiver works (if the receiver decodes DSD) but you are still limited to another $5 DAC inside the receiver. And no, you can't hack the HDMI to record, it is encrypted.
4th - the only way to rip a SACD to get DSD64 files is with software like SACDExtractGUI, which is the easiest. It literally took 17 years to get this far.
5th - you need a network connection to a computer from the Blu-ray player
6th - you need to connect the Blu-ray player to a TV to access the menu to find the IP address, write it down (it may change every time you turn off your computer). Turn off the Blu-ray player. Enter the IP address into the SACDExtractGUI computer screen. Plug the thumbdrive that has the correct script for your player into the front USB port (I think Sony and Oppo are different). Turn on the Blu-ray player. It is now connected to SACDExtractGUI program running on the computer.
7th - You don't need an Oppo, that is what I bought to watch movies before streaming was invented. I got lucky my old player is on the list. Any player on the list will work, find the cheapest, new or eBay.
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Got it. I’ll look for an “el cheapo” Player and go from there. Thanks again, this exchange has been super helpful. Now to do it!
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I’ve read about this. Sounds like a great fix but I won’t be able to play it as DSD, so far as I understand anyway. That’s because my DAC doesn’t do DSD. I have a Berkeley Audio DAC Reference Series 2. As I mentioned, I hesitated to buy it because it doesn’t do DSD, but I bought it used for a fraction of its MSRP. It was too good a deal to pass up.
That's a great DAC. Just use software that will convert DSD on the fly to PCM (or convert all the ripped DSD to PCM files and save them that way); it will sound great. Once you do either, I wouldn't worry about it. You will have great sound.
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That's a great DAC. Just use software that will convert DSD on the fly to PCM (or convert all the ripped DSD to PCM files and save them that way); it will sound great. Once you do either, I wouldn't worry about it. You will have great sound.
Thanks. I was fortunate to get a really good deal on my DAC and I won’t part with it for the world.
It is a darn shame to have to convert DSD to PCM though!
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Got it. I’ll look for an “el cheapo” Player and go from there.
It is a darn shame to have to convert DSD to PCM though!
el cheapo is a good plan, you may not like how DSD64 sounds when it is converted down to 176.4 kHz.
Each player has it's own sound. JRiver Media Center (https://jriver.com/) has a very slight mid-bass bump, it is very pleasant, sort of like an analog filter. Other music lovers prefer Audirvana (https://audirvana.com). I don't use Roon so don't know what it's sonic signature is.
I have moved to HQPlayer (https://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html), it is a state-of-the-art player that is absolutely neutral and can be fine tuned to match electronics, speakers, and personal preferences. Needless to say it is also complicated and too impenetrable for the casual music lover. HQPlayer can also be integrated into Roon. I mention HQPlayer because it's 57 resampling filters, dither and noise shapers would allow DSD64 down converted to 176.4 kHz to sound the best possible. I guarantee using HQPlayer to upsample 44.1 kHz to 176.4 kHz will be a revelation. I posted an upsampling primer (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183465.0) to explain why.
I did an audio test comparing the same SACD rip (Allison Krause + Union Station - Live) in the original DSD64 then down converted to 352.8 kHz, JRiver's default setting. I preferred the DSD64, which wasn't as bright sounding as the PCM. The algorithms used make a difference. Roon may be better sounding than JRiver plus the Berkekey will sound different than the Holo Audio DAC.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246793)
The Roon website (https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/dsd-to-pcm-settings#DSD_to_PCM_Gain_Boost) says:
"Most DSD content is generated from a DXD master. DXD is PCM at 32bits/384kHz or 32bits/352.8kHz."
Roon settings will have to be adjusted to output 176.4 kHz.
Diving deeper, mojo-audio has an in depth article comparing DSD to PCM
DSD vs. PCM: Myth vs. Truth
https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/ (https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/)
"... hybrid SACDs which have DSD64 and 16-bit 44.1KHz PCM on the same disk. The DSD64 tracks have over 30 times the resolution of the 16-bit 44.1KHz tracks so that they could make DSD sound better than PCM in comparisons."
"... blind studies they've proved that high-resolution PCM and DSD are statistically indistinguishable from one another. Considering that nearly all DSD recordings were edited, mixed, and mastered in PCM, it is no wonder."
Pure DSD recordings are now available from many music stores, these are recorded and edited using DXD and never use an intermediate PCM conversion. The resulting DSD256 recordings are as close a master tape sound as possible. A friend has a restored reel-to-reel tape machine and played master tapes at our last audio club meet up. It's nice to have a point of reference when fine tuning a stereo.
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Got it. I’ll look for an “el cheapo” Player and go from there. Thanks again, this exchange has been super helpful. Now to do it!
You are on your way now!!! MikeyFresh at HiFiHaven is the most helpful person you will ever find and will get you going with sacd ripping once you get ready to do it.
You have lots of options with the DSF files once you get them. Just get them first.
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Diving deeper, mojo-audio has an in depth article comparing DSD to PCM
DSD vs. PCM: Myth vs. Truth
https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/ (https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/)
This is a good article in what it says, especially some of the technical stuff.
However the author totally orients everything to the popular music mass market. In that market DSD and SACD have been near non-existent since the very early days. The only segment thereof where SACD is existent now is the reissue market of 40-50 year old recordings.
The only segment of the music market where SACD has had a presence is classical music. And even there it is in decline. Yet, one of the largest classical independent labels, BIS of Sweden, has released every recording for the past 10 years as a multichannel SACD. Bis releases 6 recordings every month, more than most labels.
As for DSD recording, there never was much, ever. With the release of Mergings Horus recording system there is the possibility for easier DSD recording. But the classical labels tend to record in DXD with their Horus's instead of DSD. There are exceptions of course.
And the author of the mojo article also seems to belittle the small labels and sellers of DSD recordings. They may be small, but they all have enough business to stay in business.
If one wishes to know about existent DSD recordings, equipment, etc., the nativedsd.com website has pretty good and mostly complete information for reading.
The author also totally neglects to mention the Japanese market. SACD is still strong there. Most of the Japanese player companies still make an sacd player. You can find them in other markets of the world if you look hard. Pioneer and Yamaha have always offered players of good value, and still do.
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I noted at CDJapan site the SACDs reissues albums sell fast.
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Check out Cookie Marenco and Blue Coast Records. Cookie has been an advocate of DSD recordings since at least 2012.
https://bluecoastrecords.com/ (https://bluecoastrecords.com/)
Cookie Marenco is an American audio engineer, record producer, and composer. She is the founder of OTR Studios and Blue Coast Records and has engineered or produced five Grammy-nominated records and has several gold records.
Stereophile magazine loves her (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Cookie+Marenco+site%3Awww.stereophile.com)
Recording engineer and producer Cookie Marenco of Blue Coast Records
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/101612-Cookie-600.jpg)
DSD recordings are alive, growing and doing very well and one reason I bought a DAC that can play native DSD without converting.
DSD-Guide
DSD Music, Information, Equipment, News and Answers
https://dsd-guide.com/ (https://dsd-guide.com/)
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Everyone loves Cookie!!!