AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Digital Amplifier Company Owners => Topic started by: AmpDesigner333 on 21 Jun 2019, 05:06 pm
-
Just checking if anyone out there's interested in running Maraschinos from batteries....
Since Cherry Maraschino amps have an external power supplies, this seems like a natural option. We discussed this back in 2012 (pre-Maraschino), but now we're revisiting the idea after much refinement of our designs and expansion of the product line.
In the case of a battery powered amp, might as well leave the option of powering a DAC DAC with the same batter supply, too!
Perhaps this could be a box with a pass-through, so you can switch between AC and battery power (while charging). Any feedback on this idea would be greatly appreciated. Basically, we'd like to know if there's enough interest. Maybe a Kickstarter project is in order :wink:
-
Here is the system that we took to the last show. https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/06/04/gr-research-dodd-audio-lone-star-audio-fest-2019/
It was all off the grid except for the amps powering the servo subs. Everything runs on 12 volts. I have have some Dodd Audio, 30 watt mono-block tube amps that run on 12 volts.
I love the sound I am getting from the little chip amps. I just wish I had that sound but more power.
So I'd really be interested in trying whatever you might come up with.
-
I don't think it's a good idea. Read the following link to better understand why there are issues with this approach:
[size=78%]http://lightharmonic.com/blog/2015/07/24/power-supplies-and-noise/ (http://lightharmonic.com/blog/2015/07/24/power-supplies-and-noise/)[/size]
-
I don't think it's a good idea. Read the following link to better understand why there are issues with this approach:
[size=78%]http://lightharmonic.com/blog/2015/07/24/power-supplies-and-noise/ (http://lightharmonic.com/blog/2015/07/24/power-supplies-and-noise/)[/size]
Actually some of that is a bit misleading. The performance of batteries varies a lot with type, brand, and size. And I (and a group of inner circle friends) have tried a ton of them. So we've learned how to get the most out of them and in most cases the pros really outweigh the cons and the overall performance is not only very high but at a much lower cost than standard power supplies. The batteries are also consistent regardless of where you take them. A/C noise varies all over the place depending on where you go.
-
Tommy,
If maraschino can run from a 12V source voltage right now, Dave at P.I. Audio already makes this:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111257.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111257.0)
which sounds kind of like what you were talking about in a "battery power supply" for maraschino?
Come to think of it, considering there are 36V and 48V supplies right now for maraschino, couldn't one just string a series of three or four 12V batteries together to get the called for source voltage, or am I mistaken thinking maraschino's replaceable power supplies are right now DC supplies and they are actually feeding AC in to maraschino with the DC conversion happening inside the amp? Based on what I thought I remembered reading in the other thread, you were discussing a need for a DC-DC conversion, so I don't think this is the case?
It reads to me like you're already there, maybe just not as elegant as going from wall -> ctek charger -> one 12V battery -> maraschino?
-
Actually some of that is a bit misleading. The performance of batteries varies a lot with type, brand, and size. And I (and a group of inner circle friends) have tried a ton of them. So we've learned how to get the most out of them and in most cases the pros really outweigh the cons and the overall performance is not only very high but at a much lower cost than standard power supplies. The batteries are also consistent regardless of where you take them. A/C noise varies all over the place depending on where you go.
I agree! It’s VERY misleading. Show me some scope shots and I might pay attention, but I’ve measured “battery noise” in the past because I designed many portable audio devices, and with a simple cap across the battery, which is typical anyway, and doesn’t need to be very large, there is no noise. Also, batteries are typically powering DC/DC converters, and noise on the input is filtered or regulated out. Even the most beginner engineer knows these things, so I’m guessing the author isn’t one. Power supply design isn’t rocket science.
-
Tommy,
If maraschino can run from a 12V source voltage right now, Dave at P.I. Audio already makes this:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111257.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111257.0)
which sounds kind of like what you were talking about in a "battery power supply" for maraschino?
Come to think of it, considering there are 36V and 48V supplies right now for maraschino, couldn't one just string a series of three or four 12V batteries together to get the called for source voltage, or am I mistaken thinking maraschino's replaceable power supplies are right now DC supplies and they are actually feeding AC in to maraschino with the DC conversion happening inside the amp? Based on what I thought I remembered reading in the other thread, you were discussing a need for a DC-DC conversion, so I don't think this is the case?
It reads to me like you're already there, maybe just not as elegant as going from wall -> ctek charger -> one 12V battery -> maraschino?
With some modifications, Maraschino monoblock boards can run from 12VDC. However, voltage drop from a BATTERY, with no regulation, over time will affect performance, and the power output will be quite low (gets lower as the batter discharges). A DC/DC assures no droop and allows a boost function, converting low voltage, high current to high voltage, low current. The rail caps hold rail voltage through peaks of higher current draw and even out the “load”. Handling the dynamics of music is another part of this puzzle.
-
With some modifications, Maraschino monoblock boards can run from 12VDC. However, voltage drop from a BATTERY, with no regulation, over time will affect performance, and the power output will be quite low (gets lower as the batter discharges).
This is something I've heard with Danny's battery gear, and at least as far as I know has to this point simply been managed by keeping an eye on the output voltage of the battery and simply making sure the battery supply doesn't drop too far in to the not good zone while doing critical listening. I think this is part of why the bigger-is-better recommendations for batteries is out there; a single big battery can stay good to go longer than a small battery (or even a bank of small batteries hooked together). The question of whether one needs to go the extra lengths to try to squeeze even more love from a battery with additional parts I think comes down to the length of time one needs the battery to be in top form for a single listening session (because the battery can be recharged when the system is idle) and maybe the wear and tear on the battery as far as charging cycles/management (which I guess is an advantage - in audiophile terms of cost - to batteries because they are "cheap" enough to not be too worried about replacing).
A DC/DC assures no droop and allows a boost function, converting low voltage, high current to high voltage, low current. The rail caps hold rail voltage through peaks of higher current draw and even out the “load”. Handling the dynamics of music is another part of this puzzle.
So, with some mods, could one get a maraschino to run for say a few hours on a single big topped off battery? Without mods, could one put a bank of batteries together to get the needed voltage to get a couple hours of top-quality play time out of maraschino, keeping in mind limitations of voltage drop? If so, in someone like Danny's case - a person already invested in a pile of battery gear and batteries readily on hand - being able to try this out, comparing maraschino on batteries versus AC supply as a proof of concept from a subjective sound quality perspecive, would be possible without (or to see if it would be worthwhile) to go to the effort and expense to kickstart a more robust battery solution? Is maraschino circuit as-is sturdy enough to handle at least a little voltage drop over time from the power supply without causing big problems (as in breaking something) so that customers or folks who could get their hands on an amp to try out could check out batteries right now, even if a listening session was short, for themselves? It might also subjectively add data points to the influence - or not - of aftermarket power cords, power conditioning, etc. on maraschino on AC power as-is by having a quick way to just get the whole AC system out of the equation to see if there is a difference in sound?
-
Leave it be IMO. Danny was showing a complete system. Maybe it was just synergy. I own two Dodd battery powered devices BTW. My experience is lack of dynamics and weight as opposed to AC powered. Ac when filtered properly is still King IMHO.
However moot. Only way to really know is to build one and compare to original and stop guessing.
charles
-
The system that I just showed (LSAF) had three 100 amp hour batteries. And there was a battery buffer on the Mac-mini that is external and a internally battery buffer on our DAC. I keep the C-Tek chargers on our batteries 24/7. Even running them all day long at the show the batteries voltages never drop below 13 volts. Most of the time they stay in the 13.4 volts and up range. So they never run down. And surprisingly the chargers put no noticeable noise on the line.
And one of the things I hear the most at the shows is the surprise at how low our noise floor is. We hear it over and over.
-
Leave it be IMO. Danny was showing a complete system. Maybe it was just synergy. I own two Dodd battery powered devices BTW. My experience is lack of dynamics and weight as opposed to AC powered.
It depends on the size of the batteries. I get no drop off in dynamics or weight using the big 100 amp hour batteries.
-
Only way to really know is to build one and compare to original and stop guessing.
I'm sorry if you misinterpreted this entire thread, but that is exactly what we are discussing here. No one is guessing anything. Tommy's initial post was asking if there is any interest, Danny's has been discussing his experiences with battery power in the past and with that as a reference point how his current setup mitigates some of the challenges Tommy brought up, and mine have been asking about details in the maraschino design to determine if it would be possible to try it out as-is or if there absolutely needs to be some modification work done to even try it out to bring the time/cost down of giving it a shot to see the results.
I know that a lot of similar threads on AC get spun out with folks projecting what they've never heard on what they already know to make speculative conclusions, but that really isn't the case here.
Thank you, though, for sharing your experiences with battery power regarding Dodd gear, your vote to leave well enough alone with the Maraschino amps, and your own speculation on whether the approach is worth trying at all or not.
-
Prediction: There will be no difference in the sound aside from high power peaks. This is because the Maraschino runs from a floating ground locked to the source, plus power supply rejection ratio is huge even at high frequencies. In effect, due to the floating supply, the current AC powered Maraschino amp runs much like a battery powered one would. We understand interests change and some ideas get bursts of attention, but we need pretty compelling reasons to undergo any project like this.
-
A little off topic, but I'd be glad to try another set of amps out, and compare them with amps that I have here.
I can compare power cables, Uber Buss, balanced power supplies, etc and let you know if I hear any differences.
And I can either make the feedback public or private. Your choice. If I like them then a public recommendation is not a problem.
But I would request an amp with single ended inputs this time.
-
My guess is that the amp will sound better with batteries.
Would love to hear the cherries as the amp for this experiment.
The cherries are really quiet as is. Can batteries improve it further still?
I think they will improve it.
-
I love the sound I am getting from the little chip amps. I just wish I had that sound but more power.
That's how I felt about the TPA 3116. The Maraschino's provided the power I craved with extraordinary musical transparency from top to bottom.
But I would request an amp with single ended inputs this time.
None of Tommy's amps have single ended inputs, but he does supply an adapter. :D
-
None of Tommy's amps have single ended inputs, but he does supply an adapter. :D
We can also customize and put RCAs where the XLRs usually go! This kills the ability to upgrade to balanced in the future, but it skips over the adapter (shorter signal path). That also saves space in some cases.
-
We can also customize and put RCAs where the XLRs usually go! This kills the ability to upgrade to balanced in the future, but it skips over the adapter (shorter signal path). That also saves space in some cases.
Great. I have a selection of really nice RCA cables, but it is hard to find really good XLR cables.
-
Great. I have a selection of really nice RCA cables, but it is hard to find really good XLR cables.
These test as well as the ones Audio Precision includes with their $30,000 analyzers:
Audio 2000s E02101P2 XLR Male to Female 1 Feet Microphone Cable (2 Pack) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00O5UBK5U/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_0y7eDbEDBBKCE
$11/pr !!
-
These test as well as the ones Audio Precision includes with their $30,000 analyzers:
Audio 2000s E02101P2 XLR Male to Female 1 Feet Microphone Cable (2 Pack) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00O5UBK5U/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_0y7eDbEDBBKCE
$11/pr !!
I use a different kind of test. It's called a listening test, and it separates the good form the bad real easily.
-
I use a different kind of test. It's called a listening test, and it separates the good form the bad real easily.
So you’d be able to pick out a cable in a double blind listening test?
-
So you’d be able to pick out a cable in a double blind listening test?
Tommy, you'd be able to pick out the differences in almost any cable comparison quite easily in my system. Some cables are lateral moves and the differences can be very subtle. Some are not at all. But I have never had any person over that couldn't quickly and easily identify repeatable differences.
-
Couldn’t agree more Danny.
In my system I hear an immediate difference when
changing all cables.
-
I don't think it's a good idea. Read the following link to better understand why there are issues with this approach:
[size=78%]http://lightharmonic.com/blog/2015/07/24/power-supplies-and-noise/ (http://lightharmonic.com/blog/2015/07/24/power-supplies-and-noise/)[/size]
Are the HF noise issues mentioned not easily controlled? 30 years ago I was running my microphone preamps off 2 pairs of nicad batteries to get ±18V and I had a small pair of capacitors across the output to short out the HF noise that I had read that nicads generated. This is not recent news. As far as I know all rechargables generate some kind of (typically HF) noise when being drained.
Also, I wonder if contemporary designers of domestic DC powered audio are experimenting with what car audio designers have employed for decades: huge electrolytics inline between amp and speaker to provide instantaneous power for brief transients, beyond what the amp is capable of delivering without clipping. The rule of thumb appears to be 1 Farad per 1000W.
-
So you’d be able to pick out a cable in a double blind listening test?
As long as the difference is significant. Same thing with DACs, amps, speakers and tweaks etc. But I would prefer to do the test on my system rather than one I'm not as well acquainted with.
-
These test as well as the ones Audio Precision includes with their $30,000 analyzers:
Audio 2000s E02101P2 XLR Male to Female 1 Feet Microphone Cable (2 Pack) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00O5UBK5U/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_0y7eDbEDBBKCE
Tommy, I know you are science guy and measurements are an interesting angle to consider, but they don't tell the whole story. As a listener, I am much more interested in how a product sounds than how it measures. I've heard well spec'd amps that sound like crap and poorly spec'd amps that sound amazing.
-
Tommy, I know you are science guy and measurements are an interesting angle to consider, but they don't tell the whole story. As a listener, I am much more interested in how a product sounds than how it measures. I've heard well spec'd amps that sound like crap and poorly spec'd amps that sound amazing.
I agree that measurements don't tell the whole story. However, passive devices, such as cables, have predictable sonic results based on measurements. Active components, not so much.
Besides, I want to try and keep this thread on track. Cable debates can go on indefinitely. Ultimately, I believe my ears. This is how the DAC DAC TL came about. It sounded great, but didn't measure as well as expected.
Running from batteries is less likely to cause a sonic difference with Maraschino amplifiers because of great PSRR. Since the Maraschino also has a floating ground on the other side of isolation from the AC line, it's almost like running from batteries already. In fact, it's better in that batteries aren't regulated, but the Maraschino's power supply (whichever type/voltage) is regulated. Then there's the argument about noise on the power supply, which, in the case of Maraschino, is way out of band, so it's filtered out nicely by the Maraschino's built-in filtering.
Is there a 30V-60V (through regulated DC/DC conversion) battery powered supply already available from somewhere? It's easy enough to try this out if so.
-
Okay, keeping the topic on batteries...
Running from batteries is less likely to cause a sonic difference with Maraschino amplifiers because of great PSRR. Since the Maraschino also has a floating ground on the other side of isolation from the AC line, it's almost like running from batteries already. In fact, it's better in that batteries aren't regulated, but the Maraschino's power supply (whichever type/voltage) is regulated. Then there's the argument about noise on the power supply, which, in the case of Maraschino, is way out of band, so it's filtered out nicely by the Maraschino's built-in filtering.
So if what you are saying is true then in the end the results should be the same on batteries or the AC power supply. And various power cables and power conditioners will have no effect.
You also used the words "less likely". That is a long way from an A/B comparison.
So let's find out.
Send me a couple of your amps. I'll try them with whatever power cable that you send with them and with various other power cables that I have. I can also try them with an Uber Buss and or a balanced power supply.
If what you say is true and none of that matters, then moving to a battery would be a mote point.
If everything I try makes a difference then I see a lot of merit in trying a DC source.
I can report the results privately or publicly. Your choice. Or (my preference) you can be here for the comparisons.
Is there a 30V-60V (through regulated DC/DC conversion) battery powered supply already available from somewhere? It's easy enough to try this out if so.
My battery power Dodd Audio tube mono-blocks use some small chips from DigiKey Electronics that ramp up the 12 volts DC to 330 volts AC for the tubes. It uses quite a few of them. 30 to 60 volts may only require one or two chips. But if you need 30 to 60 volts DC then that might require a different solution.
-
I'm confused, if "it's better in that batteries aren't regulated..." then why ask if there is "a 30V-60V (through regulated DC/DC conversion) battery powered supply already available from somewhere?" :scratch:
-
To clear up any confusion about this, using a DC/DC converter powered by batteries is VERY similar to the existing floating ground setup with isolated AC power.
SO, it stands to reason that powering the Maraschino DIRECTLY from batteries would be preferred, since that way, there's no DC/DC output voltage ripple.
-
SO, it stands to reason that powering the Maraschino DIRECTLY from batteries would be preferred, since that way, there's no DC/DC output voltage ripple.
So, would Danny's three 12V 100 amp-hour batteries chained together to get him to 36V with enough juice on tap to not have to worry about voltage drop or lack of current for at least a reasonable while even if the battery bank were left completely off the chargers to isolate just the batteries alone for testing purposes get where we need to be to give the maraschinos a good run for comparison with power output to the speakers similar to a stock wall power supply? If so, Danny just needs a pair of amps as-is with a couple pigtail wires for the battery connections to the DC power inputs on the amps.
Unless I've missed something in the conversation here, it sounds like this test is good to go as soon as Danny can get his hands on a pair of amps (or a STM)?
-
So, would Danny's three 12V 100 amp-hour batteries chained together to get him to 36V with enough juice on tap to not have to worry about voltage drop or lack of current for at least a reasonable while even if the battery bank were left completely off the chargers to isolate just the batteries alone for testing purposes get where we need to be to give the maraschinos a good run for comparison with power output to the speakers similar to a stock wall power supply? If so, Danny just needs a pair of amps as-is with a couple pigtail wires for the battery connections to the DC power inputs on the amps.
Unless I've missed something in the conversation here, it sounds like this test is good to go as soon as Danny can get his hands on a pair of amps (or a STM)?
The power supplies we use ramp up upon startup. We need to address that issue and a few other things for this....
-
Are the HF noise issues mentioned not easily controlled? 30 years ago I was running my microphone preamps off 2 pairs of nicad batteries to get ±18V and I had a small pair of capacitors across the output to short out the HF noise that I had read that nicads generated. This is not recent news. As far as I know all rechargables generate some kind of (typically HF) noise when being drained.
Also, I wonder if contemporary designers of domestic DC powered audio are experimenting with what car audio designers have employed for decades: huge electrolytics inline between amp and speaker to provide instantaneous power for brief transients, beyond what the amp is capable of delivering without clipping. The rule of thumb appears to be 1 Farad per 1000W.
Based on experience, there won’t be an issue with HF noise!
-
Okay, keeping the topic on batteries...
....
Send me a couple of your amps. I'll try them with whatever power cable that you send with them and with various other power cables that I have.
Someone on here mentioned that you have batteries that might work. Can you send them? Alternately....
We can’t afford to send free amps out very often. Our margins are low, and we build to suit. Demos are reserved for sales to supplement cash flow. Are you able to purchase a pair? I can provide the information you need to carefully apply the battery supply (see “ramp up” elsewhere in this thread)....
-
Someone on here mentioned that you have batteries that might work. Can you send them? Alternately....
:lol: Those batteries that I use are 100 amp hour AGM batteries. They weigh about 65 pounds a piece. It might be cheaper to buy a set of batteries that are in your area than to ship you these.
We can’t afford to send free amps out very often. Our margins are low, and we build to suit. Demos are reserved for sales to supplement cash flow. Are you able to purchase a pair? I can provide the information you need to carefully apply the battery supply (see “ramp up” elsewhere in this thread)....
I'm not asking for you to give me a pair of amps for free, or even build a custom pair for battery power.
I didn't realize that you only built a pair as they are sold. I figured that you had a stock of amps ready for sale and sending out a demo pair to another industry member to try out might be to your benefit if they are liked. And I am not sure how much you spend on research and development, but feedback from someone like myself is something that many companies place great value on. I have gear of all kinds sent here all the time. And a lot of companies actually fly in with gear just to hear it in my system. You've been given an invitation to do that as well. And yes, I can buy whatever I want if it improves the presentation of my products.
See my last post before this one regarding why I asked for a demo pair of amps.
The first step in my eyes is to confirm what you claim, that there is no effect from various power cables or power conditioning. If they sound the same everywhere that they are plugged in, then they'd even sound the same at any hotel or show. And if that is true and the noise floor is super low, then why drag along a bunch of batteries or spend any money to reduce A/C power noise levels?
However, I have yet to find any piece of gear that this would be true of.
If all of those things (A/C cables and conditioners) do make a difference with your amps then a battery power version might be a great idea. The battery power supplies remove those variables and will allow them to sound the same anywhere you take the amps and batteries. And a big AGM battery and a C-Tek charger is less than the cost of a decent power cable.
-
Danny
I have two thoughts to share. First, if you read through the various reviews of cherry amps and forum comments by owners, given that buyers and reviewers saying great things about his amps are spread across the country and therefore using power from different grids and probably using different cables as well, I suspect that de facto....Tommy’s statement that he has designed his amps not to need special power, cables, etc., are well supported and focusing his time on a battery option has a low prospect for an actual payback.
Second, my personal experience... I tried different power cords and different cables and to my great surprise could hear no difference... which as I noted above is not a unique experience.
I have two suggestions.... you should buy am amp from tommy and return it if you find it lacking... and for Tommy.... skip batteries and keep refining the preamp so that it is as good as your amps when you make it commercially available.
-
Gracefully side stepping the cables debate to keep things on track... :green:
Hopefully at some point Tommy has a couple beat up demo units to lend out for a bit to give this a shot.
I completely get where Danny is coming from with the assertion that a battery and charger are generally (often much) cheaper than a quality power cord and or power conditioner (accepting for sake of discussion that one is of the camp that such things matter), thereby making batteries an attractive option both from an all-out performance perspective and also a bang-for-the-buck one. However, being fair to the argument as far as actually developing a full-on battery product line for maraschino, I might argue Danny's personal specific use-case is a pretty extreme outlier. Although a bit of an investment, for most folks - who aren't moving their system to unknown AC power supply environments every few months - this is a one-time spend to get them in a good place power-wise, so maybe from a volume sales perspective there isn't much appeal to a DAC battery amp (or dac) product.
If one is talking absolute bleeding-edge, last n-th percentile, cost-is-no-object performance, however, to find out first if there is something there to be had and then second to get it put together and out there for the niche-within a niche-within a niche of buyer who would want it might be worth it either as a holy grail implementation (or: "now that we know batteries can sound the absolute best, all we have to do is figure out how to get the AC supplies to sound like that") for engineering purposes, or really as a last-word statement product (kind of like a fully decked-out MEGA Mk2 monoblock setup) for demo/show use and/or for the rare among rare system that can really use it for some advantage greater than the current main line offerings.
Are you running maggie 30.7 in the requisite cavern of a room fully engineered for audio greatness? Here are your little welders that just so happen to be able to actually power your speakers adequately to really come alive with everything else you've invested in such a system. :weights:
Are you running a low to flea-watt - or even a low-ish efficiency system with relatively lower max power capabilities without frying voice coils - system that you want a little more umph than a SET tube setup provides (or for whatever reason don't want to use tubes), and your system is such that darn near everything up to the phase of the moon matters in how it sounds? DAC's got something for you right here as well... :thumb:
With no stake in the game but an interest in seeing what such a collaboration could do if it got some legs and ran,
Jon
-
First, thanks to those who took the time to respond!
To be blunt, I’m skeptical of any system that’s sensitive to minute differences in cables, assuming they are low enough resistance to realize the full potential of the amps (speaker cables, power cords), or of decent quality (interconnects) to get the signal to them. This is a sign that something’s wrong, such as improper grounding, impedance too low at the destination, impedance too high at the source, inadequate shielding, bad connectors, etc.
A legitimate double blind test (adequate sample size, controlled environment, only one change per iteration, multiple sessions) is the only way to prove a repeatable difference.
If I choose to build some battery powered Cherry Amps, I want to hear them myself first. I want to measure them as well. I don’t believe tremendous available current is necessary. It’s not as simple as just hooking up batteries, in the case there’s no DC/DC between them and the amp, but not rocket science either. Anyway, I’m still wondering if it’s worth the trouble because the Maraschino, for example, is a very high performance amp as-is, and we’ve tested (including lots of listening, of course) with several different power supplies already. So, if only 2 people will ever buy a battery based power supply, it doesn’t make sense to spend the time/money to develop what will be yet another option, thus complicating the product line. We went through something similar with a linear power supply for Maraschino amps. We sold a few, but interest was light, and it wound up fading away. It was a good power supply, and super heavy for its size, but resulted in lower power output. Other specifications were the same, and so was the sound, except when large peaks while driving difficult speakers (Mags) were too much to handle. Meanwhile our standard 60V 1kW switching supply powered though the same tracks without a sweat!
-
Just sharing some thoughts...
Looking at the big picture and the power of social media for a moment.
The Cherries are my fav amp at this time.
Could battery power make them better ? It’s possible.
I don’t know Danny Richie but it’s appears he is very credible.
Thanks to social media two great engineers could come together to test something new and see if the finest sounding amp for the buck can sound even better. Since I am all about stretching the limits and breaking ground I find this very exciting.
I would find this test fascinating whether Tommy does it on his own
or works with Danny.
I am not an engineer by trade, I have heard somewhat unconventional design approaches sound very good. I have very good ears and would love to evaluate such a A/B test.
I encourage all to be open and challenge your thinking knowing
this forum supports all involved.
With respect...
Cheers!
-
First, thanks to those who took the time to respond!
To be blunt, I’m skeptical of any system that’s sensitive to minute differences in cables, assuming they are low enough resistance to realize the full potential of the amps (speaker cables, power cords), or of decent quality (interconnects) to get the signal to them. This is a sign that something’s wrong, such as improper grounding, impedance too low at the destination, impedance too high at the source, inadequate shielding, bad connectors, etc.
A legitimate double blind test (adequate sample size, controlled environment, only one change per iteration, multiple sessions) is the only way to prove a repeatable difference.
If I choose to build some battery powered Cherry Amps, I want to hear them myself first. I want to measure them as well. I don’t believe tremendous available current is necessary. It’s not as simple as just hooking up batteries, in the case there’s no DC/DC between them and the amp, but not rocket science either. Anyway, I’m still wondering if it’s worth the trouble because the Maraschino, for example, is a very high performance amp as-is, and we’ve tested (including lots of listening, of course) with several different power supplies already. So, if only 2 people will ever buy a battery based power supply, it doesn’t make sense to spend the time/money to develop what will be yet another option, thus complicating the product line. We went through something similar with a linear power supply for Maraschino amps. We sold a few, but interest was light, and it wound up fading away. It was a good power supply, and super heavy for its size, but resulted in lower power output. Other specifications were the same, and so was the sound, except when large peaks while driving difficult speakers (Mags) were too much to handle. Meanwhile our standard 60V 1kW switching supply powered though the same tracks without a sweat!
Well said. As you probably know, Vinnie Rossi has a ton of real experience in the battery powered audio marketplace, likely with more production battery powered units sold than anyone out there. After a long run, he moved on to the super capacitor powered LIO, very successful as well. I owned both. Now, he has gone back to traditional AC line powered gear, where you are, with solid engineering, great sound, reliable and easy gear to live with. The new L2 range is already receiving great reviews. If it were me I'd stay the course, which seems to be working very well for you. Do what you do best.
-
Well said. As you probably know, Vinnie Rossi has a ton of real experience in the battery powered audio marketplace, likely with more production battery powered units sold than anyone out there. After a long run, he moved on to the super capacitor powered LIO, very successful as well. I owned both. Now, he has gone back to traditional AC line powered gear, where you are, with solid engineering, great sound, reliable and easy gear to live with. The new L2 range is already receiving great reviews. If it were me I'd stay the course, which seems to be working very well for you. Do what you do best.
+1
-
First of all Ron, thanks for responding to me.
I have two thoughts to share. First, if you read through the various reviews of cherry amps and forum comments by owners, given that buyers and reviewers saying great things about his amps are spread across the country and therefore using power from different grids and probably using different cables as well, I suspect that de facto....Tommy’s statement that he has designed his amps not to need special power, cables, etc., are well supported and focusing his time on a battery option has a low prospect for an actual payback.
FYI, I have had some of Tommy's earlier amps over here some time ago. And I found them to be just as susceptible to changes in power cables and conditioners as any other piece of gear that I'd had over here. In fact this type of amplifier has been more susceptible to what is on the AC line than any other type of gear.
And I have always felt (at least with our products) that if a product can be improved or even if there is a possibility that it can be improved then it is worth spending some time to find out. Good enough for one guys is good enough for the next isn't really my mentality. I'm driven with a passion to make things sound better.
Second, my personal experience... I tried different power cords and different cables and to my great surprise could hear no difference... which as I noted above is not a unique experience.
That my be quite true. Not all systems will allow such differences to be heard.
-
To be blunt, I’m skeptical of any system that’s sensitive to minute differences in cables, assuming they are low enough resistance to realize the full potential of the amps (speaker cables, power cords), or of decent quality (interconnects) to get the signal to them. This is a sign that something’s wrong, such as improper grounding, impedance too low at the destination, impedance too high at the source, inadequate shielding, bad connectors, etc.
If we are being blunt then I would have to say that I am skeptical of any gear made by a manufacturer that hears no difference in any of those things. I wonder if you have heard your own gear. By that I mean, if you make a change that you feel might be an improvement in performance then how do you know if it sounds better or not? If you can't tell the difference in speaker cables then how do you tell how much bias to apply to an opt amp for it to sound its best?
On this subject.... I had a company call me (big well known company) that designs play back software. And they really wanted me to use their playback software on my computer at shows, and as a reference for demo's etc. And they were of coarse offering it for free. They wanted my endorsement. So I asked them what types of DAC's they used during their evaluation process. And what their references were. They sounded puzzled. You mean for D/A conversion, they asked? Yeah, what type of DAC do you use? Ah, I guess its an HP, they replied. HP, I asked? Yeah, just whatever is in the computer, they relied. So you are just using the computer sound card for D/A conversion and playback? Yes, they said. Okay, that was all I needed to know. No thanks. They had no idea how their own product sounded.
If I choose to build some battery powered Cherry Amps, I want to hear them myself first. I want to measure them as well.
I like that statement. I measure everything too, but listening is the final determining factor. In the end, it has to sound good. that is what all of this is about.
I don’t believe tremendous available current is necessary. It’s not as simple as just hooking up batteries, in the case there’s no DC/DC between them and the amp, but not rocket science either.
I thought that too as did others that I am close with that built off the grid gear. But then we found big advantages in dynamics and drive when using huge 100 amp hour batteries even when we were only powering a mac Mini computer on it.
Anyway, I’m still wondering if it’s worth the trouble because the Maraschino, for example, is a very high performance amp as-is, and we’ve tested (including lots of listening, of course) with several different power supplies already.
I don't know. I can't answer that for you. What is R & D really worth?
So, if only 2 people will ever buy a battery based power supply, it doesn’t make sense to spend the time/money to develop what will be yet another option, thus complicating the product line.
I don't know. If it sounds better will people want it? First you have to conclude if it sounds better.
For me it is all about if it sounds better or not. It has to sound better or I don't offer it. I sell a lot of kits that are budget oriented as far as price goes. If I felt that they didn't out perform anything else in that price range then I wouldn't offer it. However, I offer upgrades for those kits that include higher quality caps, resistors, connectors, and internal damping material that handles resonance control. It is a pretty significant upgrade in performance but it cost more. Most of my customers spend more to get more. If it wasn't worth it I wouldn't offer it. If it cost more money then it has to be better and worth it.
In this case you might design something that sounds better and it cost less.
We went through something similar with a linear power supply for Maraschino amps. We sold a few, but interest was light, and it wound up fading away. It was a good power supply, and super heavy for its size, but resulted in lower power output. Other specifications were the same, and so was the sound, except when large peaks while driving difficult speakers (Mags) were too much to handle. Meanwhile our standard 60V 1kW switching supply powered though the same tracks without a sweat!
Sometimes you don't know until you try. Sometimes R & D cost is high and doesn't get you anywhere. Sometimes you find a break through.
You also have to be able to tell the customer how something sounds by comparison. So for instance how did the linear power supply sound compared to the switching power supply.
By the way, what are you using as a reference playback system. Can you provide any pictures of your reference listening system and room?
And I hope this is productive in some way for you. I really would like to help you.
-
FYI, I have had some of Tommy's earlier amps over here some time ago. And I found them to be just as susceptible to changes in power cables and conditioners as any other piece of gear that I'd had over here. In fact this type of amplifier has been more susceptible to what is on the AC line than any other type of gear.
Almost all of our customers that tried fancy power cords and/or power conditioners have said the opposite. We make it a point to ask.
By “this type of amplifier”, if you’re referring to Class-D, please note that our proprietary designs are very different than typical Class-D amps.
If your system is affected by power cords or conditioners despite tight regulation/decoupling, floating ground, super high PSRR, and proper signal handling, then there may be other issues at hand.
We have a sale going on now for our TL DACs. They have 4 stages of power conditioning internally, double differential true balanced DC coupled outputs, and an output stage that mimics the transfer function of tubes but doesn't suffer from the noise and other issues with tubes. Driving Cherry Amps directly with the Cherry DAC DAC (any version) assures no added preamp noise/distortion as well as proper signaling (impedance, voltage level). For higher performance (and no tube effect), the Cherry DAC DAC HS takes it to the next level with 124dB SNR and <0.0004% THD+N. That's also on sale, and if you want more information on our available demos or sale prices, just email Support@DigitalAmp.com. With this type of arrangement, there's not much that can "go wrong", so swapping power cords or adding power conditioning is very unlikely to have any effect, unless there is too much resistance in the mains path. Same with fancy XLR cables. This is audio done right, assuming good speakers and a good (reliable) digital audio data source.
-
If your system is affected by power cords or conditioners despite tight regulation/decoupling, floating ground, super high PSRR, and proper signal handling, then there may be other issues at hand.
Again, your amps were effected by those changes here as well.
We have also found that A/C power conditioning and filtering to be pretty tricky. Too much can cause as much of an issue as not enough. I've tried power cables with a high level of filtering of RFI and EMI plugged straight into the wall on a piece of gear and got fairly good results. But plugged into the balanced power supply it was too much and sucked the upper detail, spacial ques, and life right out of the music. But a power cable with much less filtering characteristics worked great with the balanced power supply.
Too much ERS paper can knock the life right out of a piece of gear too. But a little bit can really do wonders. That stuff is like a RFI sponge.
Sometimes it takes playing with various combinations to get the right balance. And then if you take the system to a show the A/C noise levels are much higher and what worked great here isn't near enough at the show.
We've spent hours at shows swapping cables in an out to find the right balance.
Batteries on everything solves all of that and in most cases sounds better to boot.
So is there any chance we can see pictures of your reference listening system and room?
And I'd be glad to demo one of those DAC DAC's too.
-
Danny... I don’t get it. You are kind of like a dog with a bone that can’t let go... and it’s not your company, or your product... and not even some outrageous claim by Tommy that his customers and reviewers disagree with.
I understand you are passionate about this issue... so a great idea would be for you to buy one of Tommy’s amps, improve it and then see if he is interested in buying your improvements...
Otherwise... it seems like you are trolling him which is out of character with your posts on other topics.
I will say it again... Tommy makes great sounding amps which people all over the country... on different power grids and with different wires are very happy with.
-
Danny... I don’t get it. You are kind of like a dog with a bone that can’t let go... and it’s not your company, or your product... and not even some outrageous claim by Tommy that his customers and reviewers disagree with.
Tommy sent me a message asking me to join in on a thread in his forum where it was being asked about installing tube connectors (one of our products) on his amps.
And in that thread I asked him about a battery powered version of his amps. So he started a new thread on it and linked to it so that the topic would have its own thread.
Otherwise... it seems like you are trolling him which is out of character with your posts on other topics.
Not trolling. I've been trying to put something together with Tommy for a while. I invited him down for LSAF and to come here to GR Research for a visit several times since last summer. He hasn't been able to make it.
-
Tommy sent me a message asking me to join in on a thread in his forum where it was being asked about installing tube connectors (one of our products) on his amps.
And in that thread I asked him about a battery powered version of his amps. So he started a new thread on it and linked to it so that the topic would have its own thread.
Not trolling. I've been trying to put something together with Tommy for a while. I invited him down for LSAF and to come here to GR Research for a visit several times since last summer. He hasn't been able to make it.
Looks like a battery project isn't in the cards at this time. There are so many other products I'd like to design, and I've been sidetracked before for various reasons. One reason is technical interest. Sometimes the lure of a new circuit design is tempting. There are hidden issues with any project, and something as seemingly simple as running amplifiers from batteries is no exception, especially if they were originally designed for AC power.
I have an expanding product line, and must be careful not to complicate it unnecessarily. There's also a lot going on behind the scenes. I'm the kind of guy who works around the clock.
Expectation Bias: It's a real problem. That's why I bring up double blind testing and measurement so often. This is why I kept asking for resistance measurements of Danny's binding posts. I don't believe in magic.
I rely on my education and experience. My methodical, scientific approach is the reason that Cherry products are respected.
Doing stuff like swapping XLR cables iteratively and listening for a difference is a waste of time. Learning engineering principles, the math behind it, and making measurements is time well spent. Once you understand the science behind it, there's no need to test if water is wet. Instead, you know what makes a difference. If you don't understand the science, it's like working in the dark. You might get lucky, but it's unlikely. Those with a strong engineering background and education hardly ever fall for snake oil. There's so much BS going on in cables, too, and it's been that way for decades. Only now, the internet has made it easier to argue. The people with crazy pseudo-scientific justifications for non-issues are con artists. As someone who designs and produces legitimate hardware, I find all the misinformation out there disturbing.
I can write about this stuff all day, but it's late on a Friday night here, and at some point I need to get off the computer. No, I'm not sitting on it. I'm almost sleeping on it, though (:
-
Danny... I don’t get it. You are kind of like a dog with a bone that can’t let go... and it’s not your company, or your product... and not even some outrageous claim by Tommy that his customers and reviewers disagree with.
I understand you are passionate about this issue... so a great idea would be for you to buy one of Tommy’s amps, improve it and then see if he is interested in buying your improvements...
Otherwise... it seems like you are trolling him which is out of character with your posts on other topics.
I will say it again... Tommy makes great sounding amps which people all over the country... on different power grids and with different wires are very happy with.
Thank you, Ron, for your kind words. Life as a "non-believer" is tough sometimes 8)
-
....and if you didn't get our email newsletter today, please subscribe:
https://bit.ly/2FdSR7K
Our newsletters are typically more than a month apart.
-
Looks like a battery project isn't in the cards at this time. There are so many other products I'd like to design, and I've been sidetracked before for various reasons. One reason is technical interest. Sometimes the lure of a new circuit design is tempting. There are hidden issues with any project, and something as seemingly simple as running amplifiers from batteries is no exception, especially if they were originally designed for AC power.
I have an expanding product line, and must be careful not to complicate it unnecessarily. There's also a lot going on behind the scenes. I'm the kind of guy who works around the clock.
Expectation Bias: It's a real problem. That's why I bring up double blind testing and measurement so often. This is why I kept asking for resistance measurements of Danny's binding posts. I don't believe in magic.
I rely on my education and experience. My methodical, scientific approach is the reason that Cherry products are respected.
Doing stuff like swapping XLR cables iteratively and listening for a difference is a waste of time. Learning engineering principles, the math behind it, and making measurements is time well spent. Once you understand the science behind it, there's no need to test if water is wet. Instead, you know what makes a difference. If you don't understand the science, it's like working in the dark. You might get lucky, but it's unlikely. Those with a strong engineering background and education hardly ever fall for snake oil. There's so much BS going on in cables, too, and it's been that way for decades. Only now, the internet has made it easier to argue. The people with crazy pseudo-scientific justifications for non-issues are con artists. As someone who designs and produces legitimate hardware, I find all the misinformation out there disturbing.
I can write about this stuff all day, but it's late on a Friday night here, and at some point I need to get off the computer. No, I'm not sitting on it. I'm almost sleeping on it, though (:
Agree with this assessment.
My recommendation would be for you to look into making a product that has the DAC and volume control (plus the power amp) in a single unit . The concept of having the DAC and volume control in a single unit makes a lot sense to me. The interface to the power amp can be simple, and of high quality. I think there is a big market for this approach, (a la Devialet), especially if it could come in at a lower price point.
-
Agree with this assessment.
My recommendation would be for you to look into making a product that has the DAC and volume control (plus the power amp) in a single unit . The concept of having the DAC and volume control in a single unit makes a lot sense to me. The interface to the power amp can be simple, and of high quality. I think there is a big market for this approach, (a la Devialet), especially if it could come in at a lower price point.
Solid idea, and something we talk about here a lot -- integration. The Stereo Maraschino was a winner due to a just a bit of integration. Thanks for your kind post (:
-
Tommy,
In the end this is all about listening to music. Some of us in the industry are driven to improve how things sound. If listening or listening comparisons are a waste of time for you then that might explain why requests to see any pictures of your listening room and your audio system have gone unanswered.
I don't expect that you would change your views on that stuff because some guy on the Internet told you something different. Unless you come down for a visit and get placed in front of a system that will allow you to hear differences in all of the things that you have sworn can't possibly matter then nothing will ever change for you.
And unless that happens there really isn't any way that I can help you. But I will extend to you an open invitation if you ever change your mind.
-
I agree at 100% with Danny. It is a process of trial and error until you find the maximum attenuation without the dynamics of the music being affected.
Again, your amps were effected by those changes here as well.
We have also found that A/C power conditioning and filtering to be pretty tricky. Too much can cause as much of an issue as not enough. I've tried power cables with a high level of filtering of RFI and EMI plugged straight into the wall on a piece of gear and got fairly good results. But plugged into the balanced power supply it was too much and sucked the upper detail, spacial ques, and life right out of the music. But a power cable with much less filtering characteristics worked great with the balanced power supply...
It is cheaper to use RF/EMI Schaffner inlet filters and Würth 150 kHz ferrites and other tricks.
-
Some time ago I solved the problems with the terrible electrical grid that arrives at my house. I only have one left: when the voltage exceeds 238 Vac, the sound gets worse. When it is close to 230 Vac my second audio system sounds amazing.
-
Danny,
Have you tried the Rane PI14 processor in your system?
-
Question: how much PSRR have your class-D amps? Numbers.
Maraschino
https://www.cherryamp.com/maraschino
I cant not see the specs.
MEGAschino MK2
https://www.cherryamp.com/dac-home
-
Question: how much PSRR have your class-D amps? Numbers.
Maraschino
https://www.cherryamp.com/maraschino
I cant not see the specs.
MEGAschino MK2
https://www.cherryamp.com/dac-home
What manufacturer shows PSRR in their specifications? I’m not selling amp chips, but there are chips sold with my technology in them (:
Don’t know exact PSRR off the top of my head, but likely 60-80dB mid-band. The Maraschino also runs from a regulated supply. The ripple is way out of band. It’s ultra quiet even at 20kHz. For the MEGA, the ripple is where PSRR is maxed out, so THD at high power is good (low) on both sides of the spectrum.
Somewhere, I have a photo of the MEGA MK2’s noise floor FFT. It’s amazing!! Pretty level at -140dB with -60dB stim. SNR is the ultimate “proof in the pudding” at about 120dB, so you know the power supply noise isn’t getting through! It’s a solid design. This also doesn’t involve the usual chokingly high feedback levels and low phase margins of other Class-D amps.
I’ll be pretty busy over the next few weeks with the Cherry Summer Sale. Some real bargains on the list. Email Support@DigitalAmp.com to get it. We also had a surprisingly huge response to our newsletter announcing the sale! Looks like being honest and hard working is starting to pay off. Thanks.
-
In Hi-Fi or High-End no one. In professional audio, some mention PSRR and CMRR.
With high PSRR the devices are much less sensitive to the change of the power cable, that is why I asked. And, above all, to the oscillations in the quality of the electrical power supply.
Have you thought about trying to add a RF/EMI Schaffner filter? FN-9244B
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IEC-inlet-filter-Schaffner-FN_9244-typical-filter-attenuation.png)
BTW, today Archimago: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/listening-fully-battery-powered.html
Very cheap and old class-D technology. Yeeco - TI TPA3116D2, TalentCell 12V battery.
I agree 100% with him:
It's rather sad and maddening that in 2019, the record companies don't seem to understand that the poor sound quality of these recordings are likely hurting sales and driving music fans away from artists and their music in general. Despite hi-fi technology improving over the years, the technical qualities of mainstream music have as a whole diminished...
I have been denouncing it for years.
-
Looks like a battery project isn't in the cards at this time.
It is too bad this won't work out at this time then. Thanks, Tommy, for at least entertaining the idea and letting what I thought was an interesting conversation gel its way to get here.
Expectation Bias: It's a real problem. That's why I bring up double blind testing and measurement so often. This is why I kept asking for resistance measurements of Danny's binding posts. I don't believe in magic.
I rely on my education and experience. My methodical, scientific approach is the reason that Cherry products are respected.
Doing stuff like swapping XLR cables iteratively and listening for a difference is a waste of time. Learning engineering principles, the math behind it, and making measurements is time well spent. Once you understand the science behind it, there's no need to test if water is wet. Instead, you know what makes a difference. If you don't understand the science, it's like working in the dark. You might get lucky, but it's unlikely. Those with a strong engineering background and education hardly ever fall for snake oil. There's so much BS going on in cables, too, and it's been that way for decades. Only now, the internet has made it easier to argue. The people with crazy pseudo-scientific justifications for non-issues are con artists. As someone who designs and produces legitimate hardware, I find all the misinformation out there disturbing.
In the end this is all about listening to music. Some of us in the industry are driven to improve how things sound. If listening or listening comparisons are a waste of time for you then that might explain why requests to see any pictures of your listening room and your audio system have gone unanswered.
I don't expect that you would change your views on that stuff because some guy on the Internet told you something different. Unless you come down for a visit and get placed in front of a system that will allow you to hear differences in all of the things that you have sworn can't possibly matter then nothing will ever change for you.
And unless that happens there really isn't any way that I can help you. But I will extend to you an open invitation if you ever change your mind.
Thank you both for articulating well the lines along which each of you work in pursuing a shared interest in audio.
Have you tried the Rane PI14 processor in your system?
I'll mark this as to where the topic officially jumped the shark. I had to look this up to see what this was. Another company I've made friends at in a completely different industry is also good at this sort of thing, generally as an April Fools joke each year for their marketing/social media department to play around with their customers. I'd just hope something that was (I hope) intended by Rane as all in good fun isn't generally turned into something that is decidedly not in good fun.
Thanks again for an interesting topic!
Jon
-
Solid idea, and something we talk about here a lot -- integration. The Stereo Maraschino was a winner due to a just a bit of integration. Thanks for your kind post (:
In the end, it comes down to commercial viability...so the DAC/Amp might work...but only if the volume control had a remote....and along those lines, I suspect that offering the DACDAC models with a remote....if doing that didn't hurt the sound....and with voltage sufficient to fully power all of the amplifier options would be even more marketable
-
...so the DAC/Amp might work...but only if the volume control had a remote....
Pivoting in this direction (and leaving business motivation speculation alone, because that is a topic I could get sidetracked on all day long! :lol:), this is something I thought an odd exclusion when I saw Tommy's DAC DAC with volume control considering it needs literally only volume control as a user adjustable function (no input switching, etc.). Couldn't something like the Alps remote volume system packaged from Bent Audio (http://www.bentaudio.com/index2.html (http://www.bentaudio.com/index2.html)) for example be put in place of the manual pot driving the digital volume control already in the DAC DAC with VC as an easy turn-key solution to adding remote volume to it with no change in either the signal path or volume control implementation other than sorting out how to feed the 3-5-ish VDC to the remote control board? I've seen similar even less expensive setups in quick searches of ebay, aliexpress, etc.
Sure, this doesn't satisfy the folks looking for a more feature-rich remote controlled solution to an all-in-one "everything integrated", but if the target is just getting volume up and down without having to get up from the chair, this seems like a pretty quick and easy fix with no down side?
-
Have you thought about trying to add a RF/EMI Schaffner filter? FN-9244B
My designs have the necessary filtering already, AC line and otherwise.
Are you an engineer? Can you point an amp design or two that you have done as an example of your work in this area?
If you had 100mVpp of power supply noise, and the amp has 60dB PSRR with 22dB gain, what is the lowest output noise floor you can attain (at that frequency)?
The whole idea for running from batteries is to lower power supply noise. How much that means depends on what the power supply is driving. In the case of Cherry MEGA and Maraschino amplifiers, low power supply noise and PSRR work together to allow a super low noise floor. What would be the difference between an isolated bench supply running the amp and batteries?
-
Yes. Not EE.
I already know that the hard have filtering, but they tend to be insufficient for the current reality.
On battery power I can not pronounce myself.
-
Some time ago I solved the problems with the terrible electrical grid that arrives at my house. I only have one left: when the voltage exceeds 238 Vac, the sound gets worse. When it is close to 230 Vac my second audio system sounds amazing.
If the AC line staying within spec voltage, and changing by less than 4% affects your sound, there's a problem!
253VAC is "high line" for 230VAC nominal, 242VAC is "high line" for 220VAC nominal, so 238VAC should be fine.
Of course, there's also line distortion to consider, but the amp's power supply should handle that too, with simple filtering on the DC side.
The other thing is that "sounds amazing" is pretty nebulous.
-
The problem, my friend, is that in the mid-nineties the EU set the 230 Vac as mandatory. Countries like Spain went from 220 Vac to 230 Vac. Many of the hard kept their designs for the 220 Vac. So yes the 238 Vac are too many!
A few days ago the tension reached 239 Vac. I managed to mitigate the problem by changing Kernel Streaming by ASIO4ALL, with custom values.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kernel-streaming-asio-wasapi-and-music-players-foobar-jriver.7412/post-187920
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kernel-streaming-asio-wasapi-and-music-players-foobar-jriver.7412/post-187923
Since a few days ago we suffered a wave of Saharan heat. The air conditioners have been connected in a massive way and the tension has dropped -> sound this afternoon was spectacular.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5838138.html
Fabrizio De André - La Buona Novella (1970), Vinyl, RCA remaster 2017, Italy
-
In the end, it comes down to commercial viability...so the DAC/Amp might work...but only if the volume control had a remote....and along those lines, I suspect that offering the DACDAC models with a remote....if doing that didn't hurt the sound....and with voltage sufficient to fully power all of the amplifier options would be even more marketable
Yes, indeed! The Cherry DPA (digital preamp, in development) will have a remote for volume.
-
Pivoting in this direction (and leaving business motivation speculation alone, because that is a topic I could get sidetracked on all day long! :lol:), this is something I thought an odd exclusion when I saw Tommy's DAC DAC with volume control considering it needs literally only volume control as a user adjustable function (no input switching, etc.). Couldn't something like the Alps remote volume system packaged from Bent Audio (http://www.bentaudio.com/index2.html (http://www.bentaudio.com/index2.html)) for example be put in place of the manual pot driving the digital volume control already in the DAC DAC with VC as an easy turn-key solution to adding remote volume to it with no change in either the signal path or volume control implementation other than sorting out how to feed the 3-5-ish VDC to the remote control board? I've seen similar even less expensive setups in quick searches of ebay, aliexpress, etc.
Sure, this doesn't satisfy the folks looking for a more feature-rich remote controlled solution to an all-in-one "everything integrated", but if the target is just getting volume up and down without having to get up from the chair, this seems like a pretty quick and easy fix with no down side?
We looked at using a motorized pot board, but it was too large.
For those who don't know, the Cherry DAC DAC 2 HSV adds volume control to the DAC DAC 2 HS with digital attenuation. This means the analog signal path isn't any longer than without the volume control. An analog pot is "measured", and the setting of the digital attenuation is controlled with this measurement. The analog pot also provides a "nice analog feel". The end result is that performance is not affected by adding the volume control this way. 24-bit post-attenuation data assures plenty of dynamic range even at mouse fart volumes.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=186268)
-
Just one more curiosity. Many of the cheap Chinese tube amplifiers are prepared for 220 Vac!
In Spain the population still believes that they are 220 Vac. Until the late sixties it was 125 Vac.
Tarragona was one of the first areas where it was migrated to 230 Vac. I suppose it was because of so much petrochemical industry and the four nuclear power plants (only two active now, other two closed by seniority).
-
Regarding volume control, most systems these days are driven from a music server of some sort. Using your phone (or other WiFi device) to control track/volume is now inexpensive and reliable. Check out my other thread about hi-res audio. It started to sway toward the topic of streaming services (like Qobuz):
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163396.0
-
Fancy power cords????
In case you haven't seen my comments here (written before this thread was started):
https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-news/can-power-cords-have-an-effect-on-an-audio-systems-sound.html
-
What manufacturer shows PSRR in their specifications? I’m not selling amp chips, but there are chips sold with my technology in them (:
Don’t know exact PSRR off the top of my head, but likely 60-80dB mid-band. The Maraschino also runs from a regulated supply. The ripple is way out of band. It’s ultra quiet even at 20kHz. For the MEGA, the ripple is where PSRR is maxed out, so THD at high power is good (low) on both sides of the spectrum.
Somewhere, I have a photo of the MEGA MK2’s noise floor FFT. It’s amazing!! Pretty level at -140dB with -60dB stim. SNR is the ultimate “proof in the pudding” at about 120dB, so you know the power supply noise isn’t getting through! It’s a solid design. This also doesn’t involve the usual chokingly high feedback levels and low phase margins of other Class-D amps.
I’ll be pretty busy over the next few weeks with the Cherry Summer Sale. Some real bargains on the list. Email Support@DigitalAmp.com to get it. We also had a surprisingly huge response to our newsletter announcing the sale! Looks like being honest and hard working is starting to pay off. Thanks.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196231)
-
I think a new push is coming to the sales of amplifiers with the new class D technologies. 2020, if commercial wars do not make it more difficult to buy some electronic components.
Their consumers are usually very interested in numbers, specifications and, above all, in measurements. Many believe, I do not, that fantastic measurements necessarily imply a fantastic sound too.
I recommend that you modify the pages of your products and add the numbers, graphs and... in a very visible way.
-
AN OPPOSITE OPINION
We would probably all agree that many people like numbers and it would be nice to see more information from Tommy, especially if it would help us to better understand the compatibility with the rest of our system...BUT....
I'd say that the publication of numbers/graphs at this point in time by various manufacturers is very much hit and miss....if you look at what is being offered by some of the well regarded companies....what they decide to publish is all over the map....from nothing to quite a bit. Take a look at the pages for two of the most well regarded and publicized amps out there....the Pass XA25 and the McIntosh MC2152
https://www.passlabs.com/sites/default/files/XA25_manual_1.pdf
https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/amplifiers/MC2152AN
Yes, they say a little more than Tommy...but they don't give away their "in house knowledge" and it is the same with Audio Research, PS Audio and many others.
Granted....some companies do choose to publish a lot of information... and others publish even less than Tommy.
At the end of the day, information is generally a competitive advantage and if revealing it gives people insight into what you are doing and allows them to easily copy it (think China here).....and if Tommy can sell all of the amplifiers, etc. that he wants/needs to sell based on reviews and word of mouth about how great they sound...then I would STRONGLY advise him to hold information closely and not publish too much.