AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Btrmousetrap on 4 Jan 2019, 03:48 am
-
Hello all, I’m a new to forum music lover who is a year from retirement. I am planning to reestablish a modernized 2 channel audio system for my wife and I to enjoy. I am curious as to any shared thoughts on the neo 3/10 monitors. Has anyone completed and provided any results or their builds? I would think the potential is very good for these monitors. I do have a question for Dan or any one else regarding the addition of a midbass come driver to help integrate these with a sub. I am hoping to build a monitor for a middle to large room that can fill the space with 100 dB or better without compression while providing an airy, semi warm sound stage. Please share any experience or thoughts on my goals. Thanks and good listening.
-
Yesterday I just finished gluing up a pair of the flat packs that Jay sent me.
So far Rich Hollis is the only one with a playing pair.
Next is the base for them that is seen here: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160972.0
I'll have the upper section available shortly. I'm going to have to finish up this pair and give them some listening. These should capture the sound of the Super-7 but in a smaller and more small room friendly package.
And we need to come up with a good name for them. These will be the smallest model in the Serenity line. Above them we have the Super-7 and the big Line Force models.
-
Maybe Super-Four to keep consistent with the other ‘Super’ speakers.
-
Super-Duper! :D
Best,
Ed
-
How about, "Diminity" because it rhymes with Serenity.
Or if you want to get crazy with it, "Super Size Me, Two." 8)
-
I didn't pay enough attention :duh: to the post content regarding the woofer section. I would guess the combined height with the neo section and the woofer section will be approximately 41-42 inches based on scaling? Any chance of a single 7 or 8 inch sealed box woofer under each neo section to keep the size down? I would be using a sub for <50-60 hz bass fill. As for the name, what about Neomi ? Thanks
-
I think it will come in around 40" or so. A single 7" or 8" woofer has little chance of reaching the 91db output levels of the Neo drivers. It would also increase the width a little more than I wanted. Plus we wanted to keep the design a full open baffle design. The three well proven M-165/16's will handle all of that quite well.
-
And we need to come up with a good name for them. These will be the smallest model in the Serenity line. Above them we have the Super-7 and the big Line Force models.
These can be called the :
Super-7 Jr 1x1 Monitor
The upper section of the Super-7's can be called the:
Super-7 1x4 Monitor
-
I want them. 😍
-
me too.
-
I’d be really interested in a comparison between these and the Wedgies. Very similar in design concept and application.
-
Yes, I believe many of us would love to see a kit price, output, and quality of audio comparison between both the Wedgie and the NEO3/NEO10 monitor. Danny, Could you or others step in on this one?
-
Yes, I believe many of us would love to see a kit price, output, and quality of audio comparison between both the Wedgie and the NEO3/NEO10 monitor. Danny, Could you or others step in on this one?
I'm assembling a completed pair right now. Give me a few more days to get the pair up and playing.
-
Super Hunky
-
Years ago I heard a pair of Z-92s from BG Radia. A "coax" of one neo 10 and a neo 3 on top of the 10 with 2 6.5" bass drives. I always loved the sound of those speakers and looked for a used pair for sale for years which I never could find. I have built some lower end speakers before and was doing the research to try and build them when BG went out of business and the Neo line was no longer available. I lost interest until my Infinity's went kaput this week. Started looking around again and this Super 2 looks like just what I was looking for. I am very interested in this project. I don't have much room behind the speaker, 6" . Will the open baffle work or would a sealed system be better? Danny will these be added to your website?
-
Years ago I heard a pair of Z-92s from BG Radia. A "coax" of one neo 10 and a neo 3 on top of the 10 with 2 6.5" bass drives. I always loved the sound of those speakers and looked for a used pair for sale for years which I never could find. I have built some lower end speakers before and was doing the research to try and build them when BG went out of business and the Neo line was no longer available. I lost interest until my Infinity's went kaput this week. Started looking around again and this Super 2 looks like just what I was looking for. I am very interested in this project. I don't have much room behind the speaker, 6" . Will the open baffle work or would a sealed system be better? Danny will these be added to your website?
Those old BG models barely scratch the surface of what these can do, especially when these driver go into an open baffle.
But like any open baffle speaker, they need to be at least 3 feet or more out into the room.
My plan is to get a lot of up-dates made to the website in the coming weeks and that will include these new models, and some new announcements.
-
I agree with Danny, the version of the OB NEO3/NEO10 needs to be out at least 3' into the room.
I had them 3' to the front at CAF2018 and probably would have been better with 3' to the rear of the subs.
Even then they sounded very good.
-
So is a box speaker better than a OB when near wall placement is required?
-
So is a box speaker better than a OB when near wall placement is required?
Lots of space behind the Ob's is a good thing so yeah. but, even a ported design needs some room, I've found the bass is always much better if you get them 14-18" off the wall
jay
-
Right, but my question is - close wall placement, what's better, box or OB?
IMO, I think OB still wins even with close wall placement. Because box speaker the mids/highs will interact with the rear wall almost as much as an OB will, AND the box speaker will have a much worse time with bass production with a near wall placement. I think that swings the needle toward OBs even if 3 feet out is not possible.
-
Right, but my question is - close wall placement, what's better, box or OB?
IMO, I think OB still wins even with close wall placement. Because box speaker the mids/highs will interact with the rear wall almost as much as an OB will, AND the box speaker will have a much worse time with bass production with a near wall placement. I think that swings the needle toward OBs even if 3 feet out is not possible.
But with an OB design and close wall placement there will be out of phase cancellation patterns (15db dips) that occur at any frequency above the mid-range (300 to 500Hz). With a boxed design the cancellation from the rear wall will be limited to lower ranges only. It will also cause coupling of the rear wall in those lower ranges.
I might have to take some measurements of it one day.
It might look a little like what I did with side wall reflections here: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=158591.msg1694273
-
see above
-
I don't have much room behind the speaker, 6" . Will the open baffle work or would a sealed system be better? Danny will these be added to your website?
Don't compromise. Get what you want. Otherwise, you'll always be chasing what you want.
During critical listening, can you move the OB speakers from the back wall, then once you're done, move them back?
-
During critical listening, can you move the OB speakers from the back wall, then once you're done, move them back?
[/quote]
This is exactly what I did for quite some time. Then my wife caved.
-
But with an OB design and close wall placement there will be out of phase cancellation patterns (15db dips) that occur at any frequency above the mid-range (300 to 500Hz). With a boxed design the cancellation from the rear wall will be limited to lower ranges only. It will also cause coupling of the rear wall in those lower ranges.
I might have to take some measurements of it one day.
It might look a little like what I did with side wall reflections here: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=158591.msg1694273
Interesting. Thanks Danny.
-
I have also found that as my OB speakers get closer than 3’ from thr front wall the soundstage shrinks. Too close and it all but disappears. None of the OB magic anymore.
If you canonly get them 6” fromthe wall the studio monitor Danny is designing would be a better option.
Jay built a pair of N3s and reversed the transmission line so the port opening was on the front baffle sohe could place them closer to the wall (in contrast, I have my rear ported N3s about 18” from the wall). This would be another option.
Mike
-
Danny, you should consider making a box speaker w/the Neo10 and Neo3 and a small woofer, something similar to the old VMPS 626r. That would allow close wall placement and still give people a good tasted of what these Neo drivers are capable of.
-
Danny, you should consider making a box speaker w/the Neo10 and Neo3 and a small woofer, something similar to the old VMPS 626r. That would allow close wall placement and still give people a good tasted of what these Neo drivers are capable of.
This is a great idea. Even with all the OB love, some people want a traditional speaker.
-
Danny those wall graphs are amazing. I would love to see measurements with this speaker closer to a rear wall. This room layout will not permit me to move the speakers 3' off the wall. I did love the sound of the Z-92 and if these are that much better, wow. With my rear wall limitation what other options using the neo 3/10 driver do I have? Where can I find the studio monitor Danny is designing?
Thanks, Brad
-
Where can I find the studio monitor Danny is designing?
Thanks, Brad
Studio Monitor(s) thread:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160647.0
-
Danny, you should consider making a box speaker w/the Neo10 and Neo3 and a small woofer, something similar to the old VMPS 626r. That would allow close wall placement and still give people a good tasted of what these Neo drivers are capable of.
Twice I have designed networks for guys with a sealed box Neo 10 and Neo 3 combination.
It still requires some low frequency help below 200Hz and at 91db sensitivity that is not easy to do with a single woofer. So we're talking a full floor standing model for sure.
A great idea was proposed in the post above this one. I think you guys will be stunned at how good those studio monitors are.
-
I always loved the sound of the small planers. In my teens (70s) I had a pair of speakers the had a Heil Air Motion Transformer. Not quite a planer but lots of the same qualities). Then had some Infinity monitors with their EMIT tweeter. Moved up to a used set of the Infinity 2.5s. Much the same OB design as these speakers. They had two EMIMs mid range drivers open front and back. Two EMIT tweeters, one firing front the other to the rear. Bi-amped to a Walux sp? dual voice coil woofer. This was 35 years ago! A speaker ahead of its time? I got rid of them when the woofer surrounds fell apart. Wife, kids , work and years later I now would like to build/have sound something like these. I now just need to please the other, style wise. I will take a look at the monitors.
-
Just a thought: If the larger wing had a second bend/angle to bounce the rear waves to side walls. Would something like this negate the 3' rear wall distance needed as so front to back cancellations would not be a problem?
-
Just a thought: If the larger wing had a second bend/angle to bounce the rear waves to side walls. Would something like this negate the 3' rear wall distance needed as so front to back cancellations would not be a problem?
Nope. Shorter wavelengths (high frequency) are easy to absorb or direct. But longer wavelengths (lower frequency ranges below 1kHz) will wrap around corners and are harder to absorb the lower you go.
And the size and shape of the side wings even effect the on axis response. You can't change them without it effecting the response. In fact the side wings are designed based on the forward facing output.
-
Is there or will there be a flat pack for the 3 M-165 woofers to use with the Neo 3 / Neo 10 monitor?
-
Is there or will there be a flat pack for the 3 M-165 woofers to use with the Neo 3 / Neo 10 monitor?
Yes.
-
With the 3 M-165 woofers, how deep would the bass reach. With a Rythmik sub with GR Research woofer cone I would think this Neo 3 / Neo 10 combination would produce large scale classical music well?
-
With the 3 M-165 woofers, how deep would the bass reach. With a Rythmik sub with GR Research woofer cone I would think this Neo 3 / Neo 10 combination would produce large scale classical music well?
Four of the M-165 woofers used in the NX-Otica model (also open baffle) have hit crossover points between 45Hz and 80Hz depending on the room gain.
And these little speakers should do everything really well.
-
Is Bohlender Graebener still in business? I did find info on the Neo 10 from Parts Express but Parts Express also stated the Neo 10 is no longer available.
-
Jay built a pair of N3s and reversed the transmission line so the port opening was on the front baffle sohe could place them closer to the wall (in contrast, I have my rear ported N3s about 18” from the wall). This would be another option.
Mike
I'm surprised I don't see practical things like this mentioned in audio forums more often. My room absolutely cannot handle a box speaker of any size that is rear ported. Didn't matter how far the speakers were off the front wall. Bass gets out of control boomy with any rear port. On the flipside, front ported speakers would sound completely different in my room with even large speakers sounding like they have low bass output. Took me years for the light bulb to go off because I couldn't just switch diffrent pairs of speakers in an out at will just to hear the difference. So sometimes its not just distance from the front wall but general room acoustics that will rule out an entire type of speakers for you. This was all before I treated my room, but I still would never ever put a rear ported speaker in my room again.
I was all set to buy a front ported pair of monitors to go with a pair of 8 inch H-Frames before I stumbled upon Danny's old V2 open baffles, which led to me buying Super V's, NX-Ottica monitors, Super 7s....
-
Is Bohlender Graebener still in business? I did find info on the Neo 10 from Parts Express but Parts Express also stated the Neo 10 is no longer available.
The BG data was purchased by Christie Digital and now makes them.
Just checked PE and it only says out of stock at the website. I just bought some NEO10's and they arrived this week.
-
Thanks for the info HAL.
-
The BG data was purchased by Christie Digital and now makes them.
Just checked PE and it only says out of stock at the website. I just bought some NEO10's and they arrived this week.
Actually Dia-ichi, a facility in the Philippines, made them for BG and Christy Digital.
Someone must of cleaned PE out on Neo 10's. I wonder who could have done that?
-
I think someone by the name Danny did. With the new speakers you have you might be buying Neo 10s and Neo 3s as fast as they can make them. I know I'm interested in the Neo 10 / Neo 3 monitor with the 3 M-165 for the bass/midbass. I like the NX Ottica but I like this Neo 10/3 monitor more because of the size.
-
now were on a roll
-
First Lp still.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190148)
-
First impressions?
-
Excellent with the type of music we listen to. Acoustic & Classical most of the time. Fairly low volume. These could stand alone in the right environment. They can keep up with complicated arrangments. Imaging is excellent.
-
Yes those neo drivers are insanely fast. They absolutely love complex music.
-
Sounds like my pair of Neo3/Neo10/servo sub speakers as well.
-
Love my pair!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190178)
-
Yours are finished. I was not going to use mine until they were sealed and painted. I caved. I should try out some diffusers. We listened to them for 5 hours yesterday. Very nice. Mabey a bit hot up top with our set up but that's easily rectified.
-
They were playing music long before the finish was done last year.
-
The speakers will mellow out in the top end quite a bit with about 200 hours of run in.
-
I have some N3S speakers that I have played for 100+ hours.
I hope there is some further taming of the upper range.
I also need to try different amps with them though.
I realize the N3S are different speakers but they do use the
Neo3 also
-
They will settle down with time. It easy for us to tame them while they break in being strictly analog. An SRA change, different cartridge loading, a VTF change to a different cartridge while these get some time on them. I would rather have em' with something up top than not. To reiterate, we really like this setup. Low-level detail is outstanding.
-
I have some N3S speakers that I have played for 100+ hours.
I hope there is some further taming of the upper range.
I also need to try different amps with them though.
I realize the N3S are different speakers but they do use the
Neo3 also
The response of those is really flat. So they may just be letting you really hear what your gear is added. In the end if you want to bring the level down then the top end can easily be adjusted with slight resistor changes.
-
These monitors are the cat's meow with piano ensembles, violins, acoustic guitar. Most music where there's no sound coming from one's mouth. They have filled a void. thanks.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190777)
-
So the tinckley bits sound great. What about the Vocals.
-
Usually switch to the Wedgies when it's vocal music day which isn't often.
-
Hey everyone.
I'm looking at what my next speaker project will be for my mains. I have the dual servo H Frame subs, so I'm looking at the beginning of summer to get going on what to put on top of them.
I was going to get the wedgies, but they are on temporary/permanent vacation.
Xotica MTM (about 93db efficient)
or
Neo 3/10 monitors (about 91db efficient)
I was really looking for the best imaging I could get. looking forward to getting prices of these and opinions.
I will have a 3.5 watt bottlehead tube amp or the Folsom chip amp to use to power these. I am going to check my definitive towers to see what their sensitivity is to test whether or not 3.5 watts will be enough for my listening level. 91db is kinda low for a 3.5 watt amp.
The super 7 is out of my price range, but the monitors are maybe the ticket.
Ben
-
hey Ben
We have 8 brand new LgK drives and a set of the Wedgie cabs left that we might be willing to sell. I really wanted to build these out but too much on the go right now. danny has lots of tweeters and the new networks are designed for using these cabs.
LMK if that might interest you
jay
-
Get the Wedgies while you can.
-
Any update on this design? I also would love a speaker with the Neo3/10 that could be placed closer to the wall for my upstairs system. Just don't have the room and BG Z-92 appears to be un-obtanium.
-
First run of them sold out. If there is some interest in more pairs, we'll do another run.
jay
-
Are you talking Wedgies or the Neo3/10?
-
Neo3 neo 10.
I think I have 2 or 3 sets of bafles left and I have to get some more wings / bases cut for a customer anyway so let me know if you want a set.
jay
-
Maybe I've missed it in another thread, how are these getting crossed over? There's nothing on the GR website. Thanks
-
Danny has a passive network :
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=160972.0
Wwhile Rich over at Hollis Audio Labs does a DSP version
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153244.0
jay
-
Thanks Jay!