[WEEZ]

As a long-time Grado fan...just a few comments:

- upgrading to a Red is worth the extra $50 bucks if you like a bit more 'snap'; while still enjoying the famous Grado midrange. The Gold is a bit more lively yet and is a great cartridge.

- the wood bodies really do help to reduce 'groove noise' . (you do, however, give up the replaceable stylus feature) The Sonata is more 'lively' than the Platinum.

- Grado's will work okay in an AR turntable, but not as well as a Shure or AT. Grado's require a bit of tweaking that an AR arm doesn't provide. VTA, for example. Some report hum with Grado's; but I've never experienced any.

A lot of getting great sound with vinyl is synergy. A good cartridge/arm/'table 'match'; set-up; isolation; and lastly; a phono amp that compliments the cartridge. Not surprisingly, the Grado phono amp is really super with Grado cartridges. It doesn't cost enough to get recommendations from the vinyl 'snobs', but it is sublime with Grado cartridges. Really.

WEEZ

[Psychicanimal]

Good insight from Steve Deckert - thanks for pointing me/us in that direction 

No problem.  I see what you are going through.  Thing is I started doing it a few decades ago when I was in high school.  A friend of my father was into high end and helped me in the beginning.  Got to hear the 'flavor of the month' cartridges on a Technics SP-10, later on a SOTA vaccum. I also worked on a very hip audio/record store when I was 20 & got to do a lot of TT setups.  The owners were concert promoters so we got to meet quite a few people in show business.  Having FUN was part of the deal.  To this date, that FUN is part of my audio experience.  It is not a distant one like the typical high end audio customer...

I don't think you can expect to achieve the level of playback quality that Mr. Deckert describes w/o investing in what he describes as " a respectable MC cartridge and appropriate arm and table  WITH THE RIGHT ELECTRONICS ."  The right electronics , of course , being those that he manufactures.  In any event, it would be unrealistic to expect that kind of performance from a $60 cart. 

So, the ones he doesn't manufacture anymore would also be out.  He used to praise monoblock amps' ability to anchor vocals in the center.  There's no more Decware monoblock models for sale. My system uses four monoblocks for mini monitors and subs--oh well...

The current darling of the Asylum is the Denon DL-103 which can be found on Ebay for $148 delivered.  It is a LOMC that has very low compliance, thus requiring a medium to high mass arm.  It also tracks around 2.5 gms but at the price, there is simply nothing that competes w/ it.  You will need lots of gain in the phono section as well.
I run a AT-OC9 ML/ll on my KAB modded Technics 1200 MKII and it is a very nice cart for $279 plus shipping.  I have the Eastern Electric Minimax phono section with it and I highly recommend both pieces.  I did an absurd amount of internet research before making this leap.  Check it out for yourselves.
It has good compliance and I set VTF @ 1.7 gms.  The longevity of my vinyl is a consideration and I just can't get my head around low compliance and high tracking forces but many are seemingly not troubled by this.  The OC-9 tracks as well as any MM I have tried.  Surface noise is rarely an issue with this setup.  A good record cleaning machine is almost a necessity and clean records and a clean stylus are essential.

Plowing vinyl @ 2.5 g with a radial diamond tip is a crime. 

From a technical standpoint, MCs, especially the low output ones provide special challenges and weaknesses:

1) Trackability

2) Noise

3) Dynamics

Even in my system, which uses about $7K (list) worth of noise filtration equipment I would really think twice before going to a low output MC.  If I did I would use a set up transformer and start with the Audio Technica OC9.  I have tried/heard quite a few cartridges, the OC9 being an excellent cartridge.  Perhaps some of the Ortofon LO MCs would work well in my modded 1200, too.  Perhaps.

I posted Steve Deckert's excerpt and link to provide insights, a direction for those who choose so and promote debate.  I strongly disagree w/ his views.  Such a setup is against two of my axioms:

Nearfield is the ticket to intimacy.

Vinyl and digital should sound as close to each other as possible.

Perhaps this should be the begginning of a new topic...

[Wayner]

John, TCG,

Here is photo of newly refurbished AR. Of course, the inner plater is stuffed with plasticlay and there are dabs of it here and there on the inside, under the plinth. The VPI motor starts the plater in about 1/2 of a second..almost scary. I will listen to the Shure for awhile before buying a cartridge. For AR-XA owners, notice the arm rest. A piece of aluminum tubing cut 1.38" long that has a clearance I.D. of the arm rest stem, will strengthen the rest by a factor of 10. To Grado or not to Grado is the final question.

The Granite AR is coming next, need a motor but if this motor pans out, I will source the same one again.



Wayner

[WEEZ]

Wayner, that is a fine example of a true classic!

 

WEEZ

[xlrider]

 you need to internally damp the coils and add the Longhorn stabilizer to make it perform leagues above it's paltry price.

Chairguy,
What procedure, do you use to "internally damp" the coils?

Tim

[TheChairGuy]

It's all here, xlrider....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24666.0

[TheChairGuy]

I set the $50 JVC up again and found....I like it better then the $750.00 VPI rig    No surprise, but I just keep hoping the preferences switch for that kinda' spread of difference in coin / $$$.

Anyhow, I sprayed the underside of the JVC platter (that's already had a good damping with Plast-i-Clay) with Dupli-Color UnderCoat and Sound Eliminator (model UC103).  It's pretty much the same stuff that Dynamat and others want to charge 2-3x as much for.  It cost me $7.50 a can online.

Anyhow, the quiet-kote stuff I've bought at Parts Express (at 2x the cost) has been very helpful quieting my hatchback area in my SAAB.  So, why not use it to damp the cheap, ringing platter?  Particularly as the motor is directly connected to the platter in a DD, both the weak and bright spot in those particular designs, it would seem to be particularly helpful. 

Yowsa! - what a neat upgrade with the Grado Green...not as pronounced with the AT.  As many know, Grado's are not recommended for DD  tables as they have tendency to hum on them; gradually gettign worse as it tracks to the end (as it gets closer to the inherently motor right underneath the delicate stylus). The hum is due to microphonics (not lack of shielding as many believe).  Well, between the damped coils a la van Alstine, Plast-i-Clay in the underside ribs of the platter, SoundCoat on the underside and topside, a old Audioquest sorbothane platter mat with a (thin) Griptex underlay carper mat on top of that in contact with the record (the Audioquest mat damps the platter quite well, but is horrible in contact with the record, so I use the Griptex and kindly buffer), 9 lbs of Plast-i-Clay within and without, damping trough and now a solid coat of Dupli-Color UC103, the platter no longer rings and that Grado really sings.  The midrange is glorious and the top and bottom are solid, airy and effortless.

I got the idea to add the UC103 when I read that Denon's new DD deck has a rubberized (pretty much what the UC103 is - viscoelastic and gooey - like melted rubber)bottom surface to minimize 'howling'.  And, my VPI platter is encased in rubber and cork for good damping of this all important playing surface.

It sounds amazing now; far preferred to the AT440ML now - which sounds very dynamic, but shrill and cheap in comparison.

The Grado is an amazing value for $60.00, but THE VAST MAJORITY OF FOLKS THAT BUY IT WON'T BE MANAGING ALL OF IT'S TWEEKY PARAMETERS TO GET THE MOST FROM IT. It'll only hint at what it can do unless you really work every angle on it, damp those coils, add the Longhorn and make sure your deck and platter are well isolated from micro and macro vibrations as those inherently microphonic coils will pick it up otherwise.  Then again, if you do everything to greatly minimize those vibrations, those same delicate coils will pick up music from your grooves that is simply awe-inspiring for $60.00.

What a hoot - the cheapest cartridge I own is my favorite...ditto for the table.  This audiophool affliction gets cheaper by the week 

[Wayner]

Does that mean I can't pimp the AT440MLa anymore?

W

[TheChairGuy]

Does that mean I can't pimp the AT440MLa anymore?

W

Nahhhh - pimp it if you love it - I have the old version AT440ML/OCC as you remember.  It does seem like AT made a bevy of changes that might've tamed the nasties on the newer version.

I'm just really enjoying the Grado Green right now...but it is a truly fussy so-and-so to get it juuuust right.

[Psychicanimal]

It does seem like AT made a bevy of changes that might've tamed the nasties on the newer version.

Yeah, like overdamping the bass. Way to go!

[TheChairGuy]

PA,

If ya' haven't heard it, how can you know?  Or, have you heard it?

Hey - I just bought a new, higher spec,JVC DD (scored on ebay) with (among other things) much better arm (vertical and horizontal q damping within the arm and an oversized, 4 lb platter).   FG Servo, nice heft, heavy platter, built-in damping - better than a damping trough as it damps in both planes.  Well made overall - a model ql-f6 (my 'q's don't capitalize on my keyboard now, sorry!).

I paid $100.00 for it and, get this, it came with a nifty ADC XLM Mk. III cartridge (with a bit of stylus life left, to boot). I was waiting for this particular model to come up for a while, and UP it did.

So, I'm readying it now and will comment on it's performance.  Played for about an hour last night and I can say it played the most satisfying bass I've heard since the Townshend Rock TT graced my listening room 18 years ago. It wasn't quantity, it was that elusive quality of bass that was most appealing. 

Ah, but another topic to begin a new soon....

[TheChairGuy]

Ohhhh, forgot to mention - I more closely electrically damped the Grado yesterday.  With all capacitance added up along the way (about 550 pf including the 300 pf load at the phono pre-amp), along with the inductance of 45 mH that Grado's have, the resonant frequency is about 10 (Hagerman has a great online calculator for figuring it out if anyone is interested - and you should be).  I only have choice of 2k or 50k on my phono pre-amp...and WAS using it at 50K.

Well, I changed that to 2K (closer to ideal for the Grado) and, my, what spaciousness erupted forth from the little Grado.  I can well imagine how much better it performs at a 10k input - the 'correct' place for it.

My thanks to Mr. van Alstine for teaching me that important facet of performance, too 

See Frank, I do listen   

[Psychicanimal]

PA,

If ya' haven't heard it, how can you know?  Or, have you heard it?

Can't hear everything...

Got to have trusted sources!

I have this analog guru--he's really into MM's and has first hand extensive product knowledge (John Nantais, wrote the Lenco threasds on Audiogon).  His comment about overdamping newer AT models makes sense, though.  Take a look at their mounting system (from the bottom) vs that of Shure & Stanton.  Now compare the sound.  There's got to be a way to help the AT's bass response.  I'm thinking...

[Steve]

Quick question. I own a Monster Alpha 1 and 2 cartridge, both with broken cantelevers. Although they are MC, how do you think they would stack up with todays offerings, both MC and MM.

Thanks in advance.

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Steve,

Never heard them.  Seems to me the cartridge of yore, when turntables sold in the tens of millions yearly, were made with more care and rationally priced than today's offerings.  As it is with any tiny niche, you pay to play more as the niche gets smaller as there is less economy of scale. In other words, you get less for more money.

With turntables sales now worldwide perhaps in the tens of thousands only, and many of those are DJ-specific tables, the offerings are high priced indeed.

In the past 20 years I am not aware of any major breakthrough in cartridge design, MM or MC.

So, based on empirical evidence alone, your Monster Cable's may indeed be worth re-tipping (if they haven't gotten rotted rubber dampers inside).  It's $250.00 for a good ruby cantilever and line stylus from www.Sound-Smith.com. 

However, at that price, you can still find real quality MC's from Audio-Technica, Denon, and maybe a few others....and several good MM choices still from AT, Ortofon, and Grado.

But, in plain answer of your original question for you plain-talk Midwest types    they probably stack up just fine.

[Wayner]

Some early, perhaps premature observations about 18 hours run in on it....

1.  VTF - I've never had any cartridge so finicky as the Green is about VTF (Vertical Tracking Force).  1.6 grams is too much - it deadens to presentation (like overdamping, but a bit different).  1.4 grams is, literally, too light a presentation, overall; dynamics are too lightweight.  1.5 about right...but about 1.46 to 1.48 is perfect.

WTF - I've never had a cartridge so picky in any recent memory.

2. VTA - I've got it tail down a bit as I've read that's the best place for it.  Beats me - I haven't tried it any other angle (no adjustable VTA on the JVC - too bad)

3. Noise - It is a bit noisier in the grooves than other cartridges.  Do ellipticals 'plow thru' where line styli and vdH/Geiger shapes leave less a bit less friction on the sidewalls of vinyl?  Could be 

4.  Inner Groove Distortion - Almost disqualifies this cartridge entirely.  The first 60% of each side sounds quite good - deteriorating slowly into something akin to hell the last tune or final 10-20%.  It's quite noticeable - I only hope that I can jiggle some arm geometry or maybe the suspension still needs a bit more breaking it to be fully effective. Hope so, at least.  Otherwise, it's a bit of hell as the side winds down each time. 

1.6 grams VTF wasn't the answer either - it didn't help the end-of-record distortion....it just overdamped everything.

Any of you Grado guys, or former ones, lend some guidance here on these matters - or others?

Henry/ohenry, you out there 

John, item 4 was the problem I was having as well. However, with my new Harmon Kardon T25 turntable, the Grado Green Longhorn sounds fantastic. We were listening to it last night and damn. It's close to the Empire. I'm tracking at 1.5 grams as well.

W

[Wayner]

John,

I have found specifications for my Harmon/Kardon T25 with regards to arm weight which is stated at 11 grams. The AVA Grado Green Longhorn in this turntable is blowing me away. I'm listening to my favorite albums today and I hear things I've never heard before. I had this cartridge mounted in my Empire, the VPI and an AR and it always sounded like it had some weird tracking issues. I just can't figure out the physics of why the HK makes this cartridge sound so good other than the arm is what I would call a light weight and the Grado likes that for some reason.  The T25 is telling me that it is very happy by the way it sings. If I knew the answers, maybe VPI or somebody like that would want to hire me as a designer, ha, ha.

Do you have any specifications on your tables arm weight? let me know and maybe we can get a theroy going here.

W

[TheChairGuy]

Nope, no arm weight noted Wayner.

Says effective range should be 13-20 grams including headshell.

The Japanese tubular arms of that era were generally light to medium weight arms.  With a CU figure of 20, the Grado should work best with medium weight arms (not the lighter ones like you have).  But, often proof is in the listening 

Besides, my arm has internal vertical and horizontal damping....making it a near match for any cartridge.

Ultimately, I found the trackign wanting in the Grado and it was 'gritty' (not as clear as most) sounding.  But, there was something intriguing about it that I can't shake.  I need to reinstall and re-evaluate one day.

I've been breaking in a NOS ADC TRX-1 recently (now with about 20 hours on it and sounding pleasant).  It too, is of Moving Iron principle, so maybe there is something to that type of cartridge that makes them very inviting cartridges.

[Wayner]

Then I don't think the riddle is solved. I can't believe it's in the vertical or horizontal pivot bearings. I think the Grado's don't like the heavier arms.

[WEEZ]

Grados do not like heavy arms. At all.