AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: newzooreview on 27 Aug 2021, 08:32 pm
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Hi,
My M3 Sapphires arrived today. I thought I would post some unboxing and assembly photos since I hadn't seen any.
It was not too difficult to unbox them and put them together on my own, but I understand why the manual suggests having two people.
They arrived in 3 boxes. One for the two bases and one each for each speaker panel.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228960)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228961)
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Each panel is wrapped in saran wrap and then a clear poly bag. The ends are fully encased in form-fit foam cushions.
They were not too difficult to hold on each side and lift into the house where I set them on the carpet face down as the manual suggested.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228962)
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The carpet is soft, with a pad underneath, but I still put a small box under the front to lift the tweeter up about 1/2"
The tweeter has a pad on it as packed, and the grill over the tweeter is sturdy, but still I wanted to protect it as much as possible.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228963)
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The supplied allen wrench is very sturdy, so there was no need to dig into the tool chest for a better one.
i used the standard spikes. The longer ones seem to be supplied for putting the speakers on thicker carpet.
The front of the base has two cones installed to angle the front upwards. The small standard cones screw into those. For the back spike there is nothing installed; it just screws into the base, so the rear spike is about an inch lower than the front two spikes.
I put the spikes on some Herbies titanium footers that slide.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228964)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228965)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228966)
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Installing the base was not that difficult.
I put a rolled up table cloth under the end of the speaker to lift it up so that the bolt could align easily. The speaker was raised 3-4" off of the floor.
Here's one of the two bolt holes:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228967)
Here's the speaker sitting on the rolled up table cloth. I just peeled the plastic wrap back to install the base. I unwrapped them the rest of the way once they were standing up.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228968)
Here's one bolt screwed in part way so that I can install the bolt on the other side.
**The washer is just visible under the bolt head. The washer has some numbers stamped in it on one side. I faced the numbers towards the bolt head so they wouldn't mar the surface of the base when tightened down. This is admittedly meaningless since you'll never see that bottom when in use.**
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228969)
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Congratulations!
Interested to know what you are using to drive them. Happy listening.
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Once the bases were bolted on, I stood them up. Then I found the end of the plastic wrap and unwrapped them.
The cushion over the tweeters is not taped on.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228970)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228971)
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Finally, I removed the protection from the tweeter wires and the huge Neutrik connector going into the base.
The tweeter connectors use a BFA banana connector just like the Anticables use. The BFA connector is a little wide and crimps in when you insert it, so it takes a bit of force to gently push it in. It does go in a good bit, but it will stick out about a 1/4 inch even when fully inserted.
The big chunky Neutrik Speakon connector has nibs that stick out, so it lines up and then it turns a quarter turn to click and lock.
I gently bent the wires to the Speakon connector so that they didn't touch the back of the woofer. I'm not sure if this was necessary.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228972)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228973)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228974)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228975)
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That's it for about 200 hours of playing time. They sound listenable right now. Nothing horrifying.
I'm using a Benchmark AHB2 amp. Holo May KTE Dac and Holo Serene KTE preamp.
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Thanks for the photos! I'm expecting a pair of X-5's soon and I hope they will be as well packaged and easy to assemble. Happy listening.
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That's it for about 200 hours of playing time. They sound listenable right now. Nothing horrifying.
I'm using a Benchmark AHB2 amp. Holo May KTE Dac and Holo Serene KTE preamp.
Congratulations and I look forward to your feedback pairing your M3s with solid state gear and the monster Holo Audio May DAC! I have the X5s with PrimaLuna EVO 400 preamp & power amp combo, Holo Audio Spring 2 KTE DAC & Cardas Clear cable loom. I might upgrade to the Holo Audio May DAC down the road.
Enjoy!
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Thanks for the photos! I'm expecting a pair of X-5's soon and I hope they will be as well packaged and easy to assemble. Happy listening.
Thanks.
I think the X5s come with the base already attached, so no assembly for them. Just plug in and connect speaker cables. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spiojZBk2kY
:thumb:
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Congratulations and I look forward to your feedback pairing your M3s with solid state gear and the monster Holo Audio May DAC! I have the X5s with PrimaLuna EVO 400 preamp & power amp combo, Holo Audio Spring 2 KTE DAC & Cardas Clear cable loom. I might upgrade to the Holo Audio May DAC down the road.
Enjoy!
Thanks. I'll give them a full 200 hours of break-in before I draw any conclusions.
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Thanks for the photos! I'm expecting a pair of X-5's soon and I hope they will be as well packaged and easy to assemble. Happy listening.
The X5's are extremely well packed. There is no assembly except to screw in the tips of the spikes.
Lifting them is another matter. At 85 pounds it is best best to have someone help you with getting them out of the box. It is easiest to open the box, pull out most of the packing, put the box upright and then "walk" the speaker out.
Enjoy!
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Congratulations ! They look fantastic!! Looking forward to your listening impressions.
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Nicely done Newzooreview. Awe, the break in period... Enjoy the daily upgrades in sound quality !!
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Thanks for posting your unboxing. It will be helpful to many. :)
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two person job for sure... reasonably strong backs and ability to crouch down is needed
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Thank you for this. Timely as my M3s are arriving...........today! :green: :green: :green: :green: :green:
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Thank you for this. Timely as my M3s are arriving...........today! :green: :green: :green: :green: :green:
Enjoy! Better give us a write up too!
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@NEWZOOREVIEW
Please give us a take on the Herbies with your m3's. Keen to hear your findings since i too have the same Herbies titanium sliders.
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They Herbies sliders slide well. The supplied Sapphire spikes (sturdy cones really, not pencil-like spikes) don't seem to move or risk slipping out when I slide the speakers around using the sliders.
The floors are wood laminate. They have some texture to them but aren't too difficult to slide things around on. I can't imagine having the speakers spikes sitting directly on the floor. Positioning and adjusting the speakers without the sliders would be very tedious. I doubt I would experiment with slight changes if I didn't have the sliders.
The sliders appear to provide a physical connection to the cones that is very similar to the cones sitting directly on the floor. The speaker spikes sit in a little well in a titanium metal disc, providing a rigid point of contact. The titanium disk sits on a stiff black rubber-like disk that seems to provide the give and flex (and vibration dissipation) that a hardwood floor would provide. The bottom is a cream colored smooth hard plastic that slides well.
I don't know that I'll be comparing the Herbies to directly coupling the speakers to the floor, with or without the tiny metal disks provided to protect the floor. Maybe in a few weeks when everything is broken in and dialed in.
For now the biggest changes are coming from break in, as expected. The bottom frequencies are gaining texture, everything is opening up, and the tweeter/mid is calming down. I'm only about 60 hours into break in. Maybe a week from today they will be 90% done if I keep them going 24/7. Playing Tool at about 75-80 dB seems to have helped the two 15" drivers break in.
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Awesome. Thank you for the feedback.
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Enjoy! Better give us a write up too!
The break-in continues. If Clayton offered a factory break in for a 10% service charge I would have gladly done that!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=229169)
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The break-in continues. If Clayton offered a factory break in for a 10% service charge I would have gladly done that!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=229169)
I've read a lot of posts in this forum over the past month and last week I read a post from Clayton saying that he will keep them for an extra week to help break them in - so he offers this (I assume for free) according to that post. True story: I then composed an email to him requesting that he do this for me but then got busy at work and didn't send it. Literally a few hours later I received an email from Clayton that my speakers were shipping out! I was so happy that I didn't actually send that email because I wanted those speakers NOW. Funny how the mind works sometimes. Now that I have them I'm glad that I do (about 2 hours so far) but the realization has hit me that it will take me a LONG time to break in these speakers. This is because I have an open house (log home w/ lots of gaps) and a wife who really does not like anything loud and is stay-at-home also. Sound proofing has now moved to the top of my list but that won't happen overnight .
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I have a pair of X3's on order and I am absolutely going to have Clayton run them in for an extra week before they ship to me. I figure he can run them a lot louder and more intensely during that week than I could. And then the very worst part of the burn in process will be done.
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Nice, I am glad that you are happy :beer:
I hope I will get one M3 Sapphires :wave:
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I have a pair of X3's on order and I am absolutely going to have Clayton run them in for an extra week before they ship to me. I figure he can run them a lot louder and more intensely during that week than I could. And then the very worst part of the burn in process will be done.
Looking forward to your impressions of these speakers.
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I've read a lot of posts in this forum over the past month and last week I read a post from Clayton saying that he will keep them for an extra week to help break them in - so he offers this (I assume for free) according to that post.
I wish I had known. I also work from home. Clayton recommends real music for best break-in. I can run brown noise at night, which sounds like a fan running with the bedroom door is closed. I can play music at night with earplugs in, but that can get uncomfortable. During the day I can put on bass-heavy tracks at about 80 dB and go for a walk. That gets me an hour of good break-in. But I still have to play a lot of music while I'm working to get through the break-in as quickly as possible.
Since I set them up Friday, Roon tells me I've played 119 hours of music, with about 1/3 of that being brown noise by necessity. At that rate, I should hit 200 hours sometime this coming Monday. But I expect that Clayton is accurate that things will change up to about 400 hours. That means I should be essentially done on Thursday 16 September.
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I'm going to run my TV through my X-5's, as well as the stereo, I can easily get 12 hours a day that way. Most of it will be background noise but break-in should not take too long. I figure about a month for 400 hours.
Now, if they would just show-up (sound of thumbs twirling).
By the way, good info on Herbie's Sliders. Thank you.
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Regarding speaker break in, what about facing them directly at each other and wiring one speaker in reverse? Would that work to decrease the volume while still allowing sufficient break in? The downside is having to keep moving and rewiring the speakers. Just a thought..
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Regarding speaker break in, what about facing them directly at each other and wiring one speaker in reverse? Would that work to decrease the volume while still allowing sufficient break in? The downside is having to keep moving and rewiring the speakers. Just a thought..
Tough with open baffle speakers! :wink:
With box speakers you can face them together and wire out of phase.
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Regarding speaker break in, what about facing them directly at each other and wiring one speaker in reverse? Would that work to decrease the volume while still allowing sufficient break in? The downside is having to keep moving and rewiring the speakers. Just a thought..
You'll need to run something with bass through them too, to get the bass woofer surrounds and spiders loosened up, which is part of the break in process.
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I was thinking that open baffle may kill that idea
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Yeah, I don't have a room where I can put them with much isolation from the rest of the house.
It seems to me that the most effective tracks have been bass-heavy ones played at about 80-85 dB. Things seem to improve most, albeit incrementally, whenever I can manage to play a few hours of those.
Clayton emphasized when I talked with him that the 15" woofer are pro drivers with, if I recall correctly, an accordion type suspension that really needs to move and stretch and limber up.
Bass certainly affects perception of upper frequencies, but it really sounds like this corundum mid/tweeter needs a good bit of break in as well. And the capacitors and fairly long runs (for a speaker) of wiring.
So far, the bass has gone from boomy to more textured and balanced, the midrange and treble have opened up, and the screetchiness in the treble has eased off.
It's very fortunate that I heard a fully broken in pair at LTA. Although I initially said "nothing horrendous" when I first got them setup, things have not been very pleasant during the first 120 hours.
At least there is clear evidence that things are moving in a very good direction. This was all expected from other people's comments, of course. It's just different living through it and wondering if it will really get better.
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Newzooreview
I wanted to send my X5's back as soon as I got them. And even after putting on lots of hours still wanted to send them back. Then I had to go away for 5 days and just put on a long playlist on repeat while I was gone. I got home late at night and just shut down the system without giving it a good listen and went to bed. The next night I said I'd listen one more time before packing them up. Well....it was one of those wow! moments that just set me back in my listening chair. Everything had bloomed sometime while I was gone and I was thankful I hadn't let my Irish / Italian temper kick in. I was never a big believer in looooong break in, especially for speakers but these changed my mind. I'm presently listening to the finest system I've had.....and I've had a LOT of equipment in my days.
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Newzooreview
I wanted to send my X5's back as soon as I got them. And even after putting on lots of hours still wanted to send them back. Then I had to go away for 5 days and just put on a long playlist on repeat while I was gone. I got home late at night and just shut down the system without giving it a good listen and went to bed. The next night I said I'd listen one more time before packing them up. Well....it was one of those wow! moments that just set me back in my listening chair. Everything had bloomed sometime while I was gone and I was thankful I hadn't let my Irish / Italian temper kick in. I was never a big believer in looooong break in, especially for speakers but these changed my mind. I'm presently listening to the finest system I've had.....and I've had a LOT of equipment in my days.
I can't remember who but there was one manufacturer who refused to take their equipment back until a requisite amount of time had passed. I started breaking in new speakers two days ago. I am reminding myself to not worry too much about their final position at this point. It is too early. :nono: Changes are happening Patience grasshopper.
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I can't remember who but there was one manufacturer who refused to take their equipment back until a requisite amount of time had passed. I started breaking in new speakers two days ago. I am reminding myself to not worry too much about their final position at this point. It is too early. :nono: Changes are happening Patience grasshopper.
Thanks. They went from "not horrifying" the first couple of hours to being bad and very worrisome in a strange mixture of ways for 120 hours to settling down today and starting to show some of their virtues.
No matter how much one reads that this will the case, there's the nagging doubt that this has all been a really inconvenient mistake.
But all is moving in a good direction now.
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Hang in I was throwing my hand up in horror, no just dam musical and sweet! :P
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I have one of the earlier M3’ sapphires purchased in 12/19 before Clayton changed to an outboard xover.
So almost 2 years of some serious listening sessions, they are finally so very very satisfying.
They are just so enjoyable and musical. After serious room treatments and some upgrades to the front end I realize what these speakers are capable of. It’s a very different listening experience coming from a box speaker.
I learned how important the room is and to hang in through out the break in period.
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+1 to saurusrex. I have M5s of same vintage. It took 1.5 years for them to break in, me to treat the room, and to find the optimal position. Room treatment mattered, but so did the bass drivers loosening up, and me finding the one spot in my small room that wasn’t in a null.
They are quite different speakers than those I unboxed, which were early on disconcertingly bright and unbalanced to my ear.
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Quick break in tip from my dealer. Put the speakers so they face each other so they are only a couple of inches apart, reverse the speaker cable on one speaker only then throw a heavy blanket or comforter over the speakers and let them run 24/7 they will cancel each other out.
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Congratulations! Your unboxing photos should give potential owners comfort that their speakers are well-packed and that setup is easy.
+1 on the speakers facing each other with one out of phase and a blanket.
Regarding break-in, I was told last week by a very knowledgeable audiophile that he feels the woofer surrounds are NOT what takes the time to break in. This is s a general comment, not specific to Spatials. It's the caps in the crossover. I would say that my bass is sounding great after a bit more than 100 hours of listening but there's been some peakiness in the higher frequencies that *seems* to be toning down over time. But the bass seems awesome after a short break in period.
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…there's been some peakiness in the higher frequencies that *seems* to be toning down over time. But the bass seems awesome after a short break in period.
Yes, the peakiness in the hight frequencies is the biggest issue at this point. There are some tracks where there is a very high-pitched, sustain, overtone to things like cymbals that is not in the recording. It also shows up when playing brown noise. It goes away immediately when I stop playback--it coming from the speakers, not my ears.
Unfortunately, it is not going away. Yesterday the better openness and bass texture had me hopeful, but this shrill artifact in the treble seems not to change at all.
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Welcome to the world of high end crossovers and capacitors. They will definitely make you question your sanity and your purchase decisions before the burn in is done. But just hold fast, you will be rewarded with much higher long term performance, a level of performance not possible with lesser caps.
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Welcome to the world of high end crossovers and capacitors. They will definitely make you question your sanity and your purchase decisions before the burn in is done. But just hold fast, you will be rewarded with much higher long term performance, a level of performance not possible with lesser caps.
Thanks. I will keep at it.
Vinnie Rosi had used my Harbeths at two or three shows before I bought them from him, so I didn't have any break-in to worry with. My Salks didn't have this high-pitched whine, just the general need to open up and develop more bass and subtlety in the mid-range and up.
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I've see the parts in the Harbeth and in the Salks - they are not at the level of the Spatials. So burn in will actually be worse for the Spatials because of that. Sorry for your short term pain, but it'll be worth it in the long term!
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I've see the parts in the Harbeth and in the Salks - they are not at the level of the Spatials. So burn in will actually be worse for the Spatials because of that. Sorry for your short term pain, but it'll be worth it in the long term!
Much appreciated.
Audiocircle is good for Peaky Transducer Stress Disorder.
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Thanks. They went from "not horrifying" the first couple of hours to being bad and very worrisome in a strange mixture of ways for 120 hours to settling down today and starting to show some of their virtues.
No matter how much one reads that this will the case, there's the nagging doubt that this has all been a really inconvenient mistake.
But all is moving in a good direction now.
When I ordered my X5’s in June of 2020, Clayton advised me multiple times, do not worry about how they sound during the break in period and try not to allow my human instincts to expect instant gratification. He was right, I tried to keep Clayton’s advise in mind during the break in period, but I couldn’t help myself after experiencing frustration with what I was hearing. One day they sounded splendid, the next day they sounded terrible; bright, thin, minimal bass slam and so on. I do have a big 2-story room, so I purchased acoustic treatments for the front wall and the portion of the rear wall as the remaining portion of the rear wall and right side wall is open to the kitchen and hallway area. The acoustic treatments did help, but I was still struggling with the fatiguing treble and lack of bass on a lot of tunes that I loved. I’ve done a myriad of speaker placement trials, I bought a new tube preamp & amp, DAC, rolled a pair of vacuum tubes, Audioquest Niagara 3000 with power cords and the Niagara 3000 with the power cords “truly” tamed the harsh treble quite a bit and bass continued to increase. I just recently upgraded to Cardas Clear speaker cables and interconnects. My, my, my, these Cardas Clear cables are ridiculous and I mean it! They needed to break in as well but nowhere near as long as the X5’s and they really relaxed the treble where it needs to be! The X5 speakers are smoking!!! Everything is still breaking in, so I am truly happy with my X5’s! Hang in there…
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When I ordered my X5’s in June of 2020, Clayton advised me multiple times, do not worry about how they sound during the break in period and try not to allow my human instincts to expect instant gratification. He was right, I tried to keep Clayton’s advise in mind during the break in period, but I couldn’t help myself after experiencing frustration with what I was hearing. One day they sounded splendid, the next day they sounded terrible; bright, thin, minimal bass slam and so on.…
This cannot be emphasized enough but probably already has!
The break-in for these speakers is enough to cause any Audiophiliac to fall out of remission. It could possibly one of the leading precipitators of audiophilia nervosa in our time. It is a music lovers "Dark Night of the Soul".
The worst possible complication for this tragic, but temporary, phase is the tendency to try to throw fixes at your system before the agonizing break-in has emerged into it's final stretch. If you are patient, you see that your worst fears have not been realized, your life did not end, and you will not need to spend $300 to freight ship these industrial art masterpieces back to Utah.
Do not buy more equipment or tweaks before these have 200 hours on them! You will be lost without hope in a sea of darkness with monsters attacking you from multiple unanticipated directions. Leave the speakers alone to unfold in their own way. They WILL change daily, sometimes seeming to break into the daylight and then receding just as quickly back to misery.
Rest assured however that if you persevere and restrain your worst audiophile habits you will be rewarded with a world class experience. The clouds will part. Diana Krall will sing. And you will once again be happy...or at least as happy as an audiophile can be.
(BTW. I have made all of these mistakes.)
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Great thread. My M3s arrived on Tuesday - I'm a newbie and the speakers I had are 30 years old (but sound very good) but I don't have the ear or the experience (incl comparing against other speakers) most of you do. That said, to me they sound amazing out of the box (speaking of boxes I need to figure out where I'm going to store the Hobbit caskets :D as I don't have much storage space left) on my "clean" recordings that don't have heavy electric guitar. My older speakers had the same issue where the high mids and treble collide and distorts even at 80 db (meaning not crazy loud) levels. Because my old speakers did this, although they are much, much smaller, I wonder if any of it is in my system but will stay patient.
For example, Voodoo from Godsmack is a fairly "clean" song but Whatever on the same album is not - meaning heavy electric guitar and generally a "noisier" song, but one which I really like and have the guitar and symbols "crashing" together.
Take 5 sounds amazing as does Tosca , Suzuki, Fleetwood Mac, Rumours and about a dozen others but - and this may be the recording, Rush Moving Pictures, 180g sounds (relatively) awful.
Because I had this issue w/ my other speakers I keep wondering if it is my system but will continue to be patient as they have a whopping 3-4 hours on them.
Also, the rest of my system is only a month old so the amp/tubes, TT, cart and phonostage (with tubes), cables and speaker wire are all breaking in. So.... I will continue to be patient as I REALLY ENJOY :green: :green: :green: :green: my speakers on the recordings it likes right now Will then reassess. I literally have permagrin the whole time I'm sitting in my listening chair listening to my new system. :green:
Question: How loud does the music have to be to be considered counting towards break in? Meaning is 60 db enough or does it have to be 70 or 80?
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This cannot be emphasized enough but probably already has!
The break-in for these speakers is enough to cause any Audiophiliac to fall out of remission. It could possibly one of the leading precipitators of audiophilia nervosa in our time. It is a music lovers "Dark Night of the Soul".
The worst possible complication for this tragic, but temporary, phase is the tendency to try to throw fixes at your system before the agonizing break-in has emerged into it's final stretch. If you are patient, you see that your worst fears have not been realized, your life did not end, and you will not need to spend $300 to freight ship these industrial art masterpieces back to Utah.
Do not buy more equipment or tweaks before these have 200 hours on them! You will be lost without hope in a sea of darkness with monsters attacking you from multiple unanticipated directions. Leave the speakers alone to unfold in their own way. They WILL change daily, sometimes seeming to break into the daylight and then receding just as quickly back to misery.
Rest assured however that if you persevere and restrain your worst audiophile habits you will be rewarded with a world class experience. The clouds will part. Diana Krall will sing. And you will once again be happy...or at least as happy as an audiophile can be.
(BTW. I have made all of these mistakes.)
Well said and dead-on right. This has been said over and over and over. So all who just purchased the Spatial speakers do no need to ask about the break-in or they sound rough at the start. I went through this and I made a few rush decisions along the way, but today I can tell you these speakers are so well balanced with superb bass, midrange, and highs that are neither forward nor recessed or rolled off. Trust the long term owners of these speakers, the only point I like to add is to look at the acoustics of your room, if it is bright, echo when you clap your hands then for goodness sake invest in some acoustic panels, corners, and front wall and something at the 1st reflection point, a little will go a long way to making your room to allow the speakers to show their best, this speaker and for that matter any speaker.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/product-category/acoustic-panels/#scroll-to-products
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Of if you like to DIY, you can custom build some very nice acoustic panels for cheap, like I did:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175422.0
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The break-in for these speakers is enough to cause any Audiophiliac to fall out of remission.
Do not buy more equipment or tweaks before these have 200 hours on them!
(BTW. I have made all of these mistakes.)
Bingo! I knew better, but refused to restrain myself. Lol…. I already planned to replace my preamp, power amp & DAC, but my mission was to allow the X5s to break in first, then purchase the new gear one at a time. I failed my own mission due to impatience. Constantly swapping out gear doing the break in period didn’t allow me to determine if the X5s were settling in and if the new gear, (which has a break in period as well), was the creating a positive or negative link in the chain. Patience is a virtue that should be exercised to the max in this Audiophile journey!
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….the only point I like to add is to look at the acoustics of your room, if it is bright, echo when you clap your hands then for goodness sake invest in some acoustic panels, corners, and front wall and something at the 1st reflection point, a little will go a long way to making your room to allow the speakers to show their best, this speaker and for that matter any speaker.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/product-category/acoustic-panels/#scroll-to-products
All the years I have been pursuing audio nirvana, I never considered acoustic room treatments for my room. I don’t even recall hifi dealers that I’ve purchased from over the years mention acoustic treatments for my listening room. It was always a quest to get better gear and not realizing I wasn’t just listening to my system, I was also listening to my room. That all changed within the last 12 months after I purchased several acoustic panels from GIK. It was an excellent purchase!
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I found this on a forum by Robert E. Greene
(REG) of The Absolute Sound:
"I suppose everyone is aware at least in general terms
of the Archimedes/Eureka project back in the 1990s
conducted jointly by KEF, Bang and Olufsen, and
the Acoustical Institute of the Technical University of
Denmark(where I used to work sometimes).
One of the results of this research--and this was
real research , not "market research" or "preference testing"
-- was that the first floor reflection was a major source
of timbre alteration. It also has major effects on stereo
imaging.
Getting rid of it makes the timbre more nearly correct
and also "floats" the images front to back--which is
correct.
Even further back, Gunther Theile had pointed at
that the fact that the front of the image area (what
is commonly called the "soundstage") tended to be
in the plane of the speakers, the physical plane
in which the speakers were located, but that this
was wrong and showed that at some level the ear.brain
was hearing the speakers as sources.
Getting rid of the floor reflection gets rid of this
defect in good part. People are obsessed with the
bounce off the side walls-- but of course you can largely get rid of
that by putting the speakers far from the walls.
But the floor is not so easy to get rid of.
One approach is to use multiple drivers in
a vertical array. Even two in MTM ("D'Appollito")
helps.
Also if you like two way BBC style speakers with
a single bass mid driver over most of the range,
you can mount the speakers rather further from
the floor than usual.. It looks sort of odd. But it
sounds really good.
Get the floor out of there. It makes a huge difference.
Worth experimenting with."
REG
PS It is really odd that something like this, which is
a truly major effect is not much worried about by most
people , while they mess about with relatively minor things.
But I guess we are used to that sort of peculiarity.
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I think reducing or minimizing the "first floor reflection" is why some stand-mounted monitors are so excellent at imaging.
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I think reducing or minimizing the "first floor reflection" is why some stand-mounted monitors are so excellent at imaging.
The mid/bass driver on the M3 Sapphires is at nearly the same level as the woofer on my Harbeths when mounted on their stands. The lower 15" driver on the Sapphires is actually a bit more off the floor than the REL subwoofers that were handling the same range with the Harbeths.
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the first floor reflection was a major source
of timbre alteration. It also has major effects on stereo
imaging.
I have area rugs with pads underneath to dampen the floor reflections. I agree that bare wood or tile are an issue. I cringe when I see picture of speakers, especially floor standers, sitting in a room with bare tile or wooden floors.
The break-in unpleasantness is not in the room, although I do have a selection of bass and broad-range GIK absorbers on order as well as some diffracting panels to experiment with. When break-in is well finished, I will experiment with further treatments.
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On wood or tile floors throw pillows will also work and can be removed after listening.
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On wood or tile floors throw pillows will also work and can be removed after listening.
Or lots of big fluffy dogs!
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We've successfully hijacked this thread to discuss break-in. So, I might as well join in. I feel like I am not a member of the club because my experience isn't all that bad with my X3s. Of course they are a significant upgrade over my old bookshelf speakers. Maybe that's why I am so thrilled with the X3s. I received my X3s in mid May. 90 days of listening about 2 or 3 hours a day puts over 200 hours on them. I have a large rug with a thick pad on the floor (laminate over concrete slab). I use GAIA IIs. I have GIK diffusor/absorbers and bass traps behind each speaker. My room is part of our "great" room (40 feet wide, 30 feet long and 12 foot vaulted ceiling).
Results? They sound fantastic. Wide and deep soundstage (speakers disappear). Magnificent music reproduction. Maybe I need to get an "expert" over here to listen and cringe.
Marcus
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Maybe I need to get an "expert" over here to listen and cringe.
I don't think anyone here has claimed to be an expert or has questioned the validity of what you hear in your system.
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WE all share our listening observations, nothing more or less. I am sure what I hear in my room is different than what you hear. My power cords, gear, and my room acoustics are unlike all others. So I can say what I hear, that is until I swap out a Hurricane power cord for a Firebird power cord, then insert a Tornado power cord, then I have to write about a different perspective in what I am hearing or by removing an ARC panel from between my speakers then just that one change and I hear a different sound from the top to bottom. There just are no Absolutes. In the end, it takes knowledge, experience, and the ability to try something different that makes one find the sound they enjoy hearing.
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That's it for about 200 hours of playing time. They sound listenable right now. Nothing horrifying.
I'm using a Benchmark AHB2 amp. Holo May KTE Dac and Holo Serene KTE preamp.
Thank you for the unboxing information and photos.
I thought that the X3 would be the likely speakers for my room etc, but it looks like the M3 or X4 is the more likely choice, so it has been great to see the unboxing and set-up of your speakers.
Because everything in my system is pretty ancient (like me), I will be going new all round, and after lots of reading reviews etc, I decided in the last 2 days that Benchmark AHB2 amp , Holo May DAC (probably May/possibly Spring) would be in there, with a decision to be made about whether to go with the Benchmark pre or the Holo pre.....and then today I read your thread.
Now that you will have a lot more hours up, are you happy to share your latest thoughts about how your speakers are going, and how they are working with the other elements in your system?
Because there will be some time involved in getting the Spatials to Australia, hopefully everything else can be well "run in" by the time the speakers get here.
Thank you,
Paul.
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Any News on your M3 Sapphires? What is the sound like a few weeks later?
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Any News on your M3 Sapphires? What is the sound like a few weeks later?
The Sapphires have continued to open up, reveal more detail, relax, deepen in soundstage, and sound more and more like natural, realistic music from top to bottom. They seemed to go through a somewhat significant shift in all of those good directions about three weeks ago, around the 800 hour mark.
Others have noted that they might continue to improve or go through another bump in improvement at 1200 hours, but I'm at the point where I am not listening for evidence of break-in, just listening to music.
One change that I made since last posting was to change my interconnects and speaker cables over to Anticables. I now use the Level 4.3 XLR interconnects and the Level 3.1 speaker wires with banana plugs. This made an obvious difference in detail retrieval and bass texture with nothing lost in other aspects. Spatial Audio clearly knows what they are about when using the Anticables at audio shows.
I suppose my update would be: 1) give it 800-1000 hours and 2) try the Anticables.
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Newzooreview
Yeah I've had several brands of cabling in my system and I always go back to Anticables...including power cords. Really a great cable at a great cost. I remember when I first tried the PC's I was shocked at the immediate and obvious positive change that I heard. Nice thing is you have 30 days to try them and they have an upgrade program too.
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I suppose my update would be: 1) give it 800-1000 hours and 2) try the Anticables.
A while back I tested about 8 different speaker wires with a friend. We had the Anticable 2.1 and 3.1 as well as 6 other brands costing as much as $3,000 / pair (I am fortunate to have a local dealer that will let me try different things for free as long as he has demos). We were both surprised at how well the Anticables did. The 3.1 are quite a bit better than the 2.1 and while a couple of the more expensive speaker wires sounded better than the 3.1 on my system, the 3.1's held their own, they were only bested by wires that were 4 or 5 times the cost. They are the best bang for the buck of all the speaker wire I have tried. Yes you can get better but it will cost you.
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newzooreview
It’s been a month since your last post here. Could you provide an update on your final speaker positioning from walls and from listening position… and what are you hearing. Two of my impressions of the M3 are dynamics and realism.
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@newzooreview
Thanks so much for the unboxing post. I am moving and also considering selling my X5's as part of the downsizing.
When I started to pack the speakers into the original boxes I could not remember how the packing was arranged. Your post was a life saver!
Best,
Paul
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Sure thing. It will help me too, since I'll need to sell the M3 in advance of my own move.