AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: catluck on 1 Sep 2022, 01:43 pm
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Threads in this forum have addressed listening chairs, power conditioners, cables, DAC's, amps, etc., etc. Recently I acquired a pair of gaNfets, gallium nitride amps from Class D Audio. The transformation in listening was so profound I had to share it. Originally shared on ASR's site:
"I thought I might weigh in on the Premium Audio mini Gan 5. After reading Daniboun's comments, and fully aware of Amir's really troubling measurements, I contacted Tom Rost at Class D Audio to discuss. Tom suggested that the unit Amir measured was "broken." Although I found Tom's other answers to my questions less than compelling, Class D Audio allows a 15-day trial period. So, for the total shipping cost of $32 I could try this "new" technology and decide for myself. I ordered a pair of mini Gan 5's ($1,400) to use as monoblocks. Tom indicates that as monoblocks they output 300 watts @ 8ohms and 400 watts @ 4ohms. To be truthful, I was expecting, yes the dreaded BIAS!!, the units to be less, far less in fact, than they were advertised to be, i.e., class A quality (?), audiophile quality, SOTA, and so on. After several email inquiries/responses with Tom, I wanted to be generous but Amir’s measurements on ASR really troubled me. Nonetheless, I ordered a pair and several days ago I received a large box containing two small boxes each housing a diminutive, solidly built albeit sober 5 lb. amp. No audiophile jewelry here and, frankly, I’m grateful for that. Upon hook-up and initial turn on, only a barely, and I mean just barely, discernable hiss with my ear almost touching the tweeter cover of Spatial Audio Sapphire M3's. The internal blue led's indicated the amps were operating - SO FAR SO GOOD. I waited several hours and then couldn't help myself. Put on Ben Webster "Stormy Weather" and, and,................................., I was astonished. Ben's sax was utterly corporeal, burnished, with the most life-like tone color and dynamics I've heard. As Daniboun noted, the bass is also exemplary. I won’t claim that the M3's may as well be different speakers but....I hadn’t heard them sounding this musical previously. The bass is so alive - propulsive, dense tone, with excellent texture and pitch. String tone is sweet and superbly textured. Instrument placing across the soundstage is precise and well differentiated. Listening to the Baz Trio, an exceptional recording of a great piano trio, and, again, just sat transfixed. Piano tone was dense, rich, pure with superb dynamic scaling. Same with Charlap _ Notes from New York. Bass is really noticeably more present. Listened to Lovano, Monk, Charlap, Evans, Davis, Pepper, Baker, etc. Snare has greater snap and definition. The sound is utterly refined and by that I guess I mean no discernable noise, hash, grit, grain, glare, edge - nothing one would ordinarily associate with class D and all emanating from a dead silent black background. This ain’t your father’s class D. All listenings were revelatory compared to previous listenings. The clarity, transparency, and resolution are among the best I’ve heard from any circuit topology. In fact, last night I got up around midnight just to come downstairs and listen. Haven't done that in probably 25 years. I've run the M3's with (a sampling but not all kit): tubes (Psvane 845, VTL 6550's), class D mosfet (Bel Canto eRef 600's), and class A-A/B sand amps (Pass, Sim Audio, Levinson) - all as monoblocks. These 5 lb. toys are not just competitive but, IMO, superior to all I’ve owned. And it's not like you have to ponder, stroke your beard and look to the heavens for signs. Upon the first hearing it seemed rather obvious. Like Daniboun, I don't care to, and won't, get into the subjective/objective debate. Yes, ceteris paribus, I would prefer kit with superior objective measurements. But, as noted in the opinion piece (As We See It) in the Jan., 2019 issue of Stereophile (Vol.42, No.1), too many unanswered questions about measurements and their relationship/impact on audio quality and listening preferences. In truth, I just don't give a shit anymore. As I noted elsewhere in this forum, I want to be ravished by music and if it sounds good, I don't care if it's generated by mice spinning a wheel. These amps are transformational in my system. I don’t mean to gush but when the listening experience is transformed to this degree, well, I have to report what I’m hearing. I consider it a public service announcement. I'm not typically given to excess. I understand the objectivists will howl and curse my name as they dance around the bonfire under the full moon. Don’t care. Think I'm full of shit? Maybe I am - but all you need to do is try gallium nitride GanFets.. As noted I went with Tom at Class D Audio and confirmed a trial period of 15 days as advertised on the website. If you try this product and don't agree with me, in the worst case you're out $32 for shipping for 15 days to listen. But, be prepared to keep the units because you may find your listening experience transformed. BTW, I'm not affiliated or associated in any way with Premium Audio or Class D Audio."
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great post! i have had a similar experience very recently with a nord one class D "ncore" amp. utterly fabulous sound with my M3s. and i had been biased against class D from prior experience, but took advantage of a return policy and gave class D another shot after reading reviews confirming that Class D has come a long way forward recenlty.
really dont want to open the door to a debate on measurements either - but the amir/audioscience site never seems to correlate the dreaded distortion that they giddily measure with any sonic effects whatsoever. its like they dont care at all what something sounds like, only how it measures. i am the other way around, only care about how something sounds, not how it measures. if others find that measurements correspond with what they hear - i am happy.
thanks again for bringing these particular amps to the attention of spatial owners.
spatial sounds great with good class D = who knew? :)
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Musicdre,
Thanks for chiming in. As I've matured, i.e., gotten old, through decades of pursuing this passionate "hobby?" I've come to agree with you far more than disagree, i.e., ultimately it's what the kit sounds like. If not, what? Does one buy a piece for its measurements even if you're not enamored with its "sound"? Don't think so. And that's without even beginning to consider how to correlate measurements with musical presentation and listening preferences. As I've noted, yeah, we would generally prefer better measuring kit to lesser measuring. But isn't is ultimately the "sound"? Anyway, thanks for the support. The objectivist crowd really seems to have great difficulty with the role sound appreciation should play in deciding what to own. So, again, thank you for that. One last thing: I do want to emphasize that as much as I like my Bel Canto eRef 600's (class D MOSFET amps) the sonic differences in gallium nitride (gaNfets) are striking - something to hear. But, in the end, I wholly agree with you about how good class D sounds on the Sapphires.
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The Premium Audio Products website doesn't list monoblocks for sale. There is a link for monoblocks, but the page just displays "We can't find products matching the selection." https://premium-audio.com/catalog/category/view/s/gan-amps/id/54/
Was your pair of monoblocks a prototype or one-off custom set?
Many thanks.
Nevermind. The classdaudio site shows a pair of monoblocks. https://classdaudio.com/pair-of-mini-gan-5-monoblock-amplifiers.html
It seems as if the Premium Audio Products site is run by the same person but not as up to date as the classdaudio site. There is no physical address for the company(ies) visible on either site. They say they offer a 15 day trial in some places and a 21 day trial in others. Hmmm.
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The Premium Audio Products website doesn't list monoblocks for sale. There is a link for monoblocks, but the page just displays "We can't find products matching the selection." https://premium-audio.com/catalog/category/view/s/gan-amps/id/54/
Was your pair of monoblocks a prototype or one-off custom set?
Many thanks.
You have to wonder about this manufacturer. Here today is gone tomorrow?. The site is just not that good.
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NewZooReview - try "Class D Audio" for the monoblocks. They're listed.
Mr. Big - You're RIGHT. And your observations definitely informed my concerns hence the colloquy between Tom and myself. Turns out Class D Audio does substantial design/manufacture work, according to Tom, for other companies. True? I have no idea but I'll be generous and take Tom at his word. Tom indicates that he has website additions in design. We'll see. Could cost me $1,400 and that's meaningful for sure. I admit I took a leap here.
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You have to wonder about this manufacturer. Here today is gone tomorrow?. The site is just not that good.
Yeah, touting designed and made in the USA and concealing the physical address of the business is an odd choice, as is the poorly photoshopped stock photo on the home page. I know the amp might sound fantastic. One is alway intrigued with potential technological advances. But a trustworthy business, I have found, matters just as much.
With a site re-design underway then perhaps the owner can consider such feedback. It would be good to see a small business with a good product grow and succeed.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=244417)
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Newzooreview - Sorry. I didn't see your "nevermind" stuff. You're right about the 15 day - 21 day conflict. Tom indicated 15 days no problem. Again, I'm trying to be generous in this situation and if you argued, "why?" I get it. I tried to do as much due diligence as reasonable under the circumstances. If these amps weren't so musical, to my worthless brain, well they would have gone back by now. But even acknowledging Mr. Big's wholly meritorious comments, and your concerns as well, I'm keeping them. My hope, and it's only hope (and, yes, I know, "live in hope, die in despair") is that if Tom's shop has made it through the last 2 years or so perhaps it's indicative of staying power. I don't know and I readily admit that. Choose another gallium nitride brand and see if you can get a trial period. If so, I highly recommend this technology.
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Folks,
FWIW, below is a snippet of Tom's response to some of my questions which were instigated by the very concerns you raised,
"Hi Rob,
Thank you.. this sounds really good. Of course I don't like the Amir thing mentioned only because whenever this comes up, I get overwhelmed with emails asking about it and I can't get my work done. People don't understand that we are a small company and the only reason we can sell a product of this quality, and make them here in the USA is because we actually manufacture these ourselves. I'm not sitting at the computer all day marketing products or answering phones, but I am actually out in the shop running these boards and other to make these amps. I don't know any other company that does this as it is so much easier to have other companies manufacture their products or buy amp modules from companies like Hypex, ICEpower, and others. They put then in their own case and charge a bundle for them. I'm working 7 days a week and most evenings trying to get these fantastic amplifiers out at a price average people can afford. it's easy to make a great product if money is no object, but to make a great product and bring it in at a price average people can afford, this is the hard part and has been my focus for the last 14 years."
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Newzooreview,
I forgot to mention that when the amps are shipped the address of Class D Audio is included on the label. They're located in Corona, CA at 1149 Pomona Road. Not to get too nerdy I also checked with the Secretary of State's office as part of my due diligence. In any event, you and Mr. Big are still right to express concern. I guess I've been won over by my several emails with Tom and the final product which shipped in 48 hours and is really quite beautiful to behold in a spartan sort of way. But be clear, it's a totally finished product. As always, FWIW.
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Newzooreview,
I forgot to mention that when the amps are shipped the address of Class D Audio is included on the label. They're located in Corona, CA at 1149 Pomona Road. Not to get too nerdy I also checked with the Secretary of State's office as part of my due diligence. In any event, you and Mr. Big are still right to express concern. I guess I've been won over by my several emails with Tom and the final product which shipped in 48 hours and is really quite beautiful to behold in a spartan sort of way. But be clear, it's a totally finished product. As always, FWIW.
Thanks. Makes good sense.
How are the Monoblocks set up on the rear? The only photos on the site are for the stereo version.
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Several months ago when tube shortages appeared and the tube gouging began, I went ahead and purchased a Classdaudio Mini GaN 3. This figuring it was less costly than retubing any of my three tube amps with the then current tube gouge in play. Having owned a few Classdaudio amps in the past, I've always been impressed with their overall value and fit/finish. Although the Mini GaN 3 is much smaller than my previous Classdaudio amps, the quality fit/finish and overall feel of the amp remains exceptional at this price point. In regard to the sound, very good with exceptional bass response. While not quite at the level of my tube amps in regard to midrange presence, its bass response surpasses them. All in all, a superb value IMHO.
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Several months ago when tube shortages appeared and the tube gouging began, I went ahead and purchased a Classdaudio Mini GaN 3. This figuring it was less costly than retubing any of my three tube amps with the then current tube gouge in play. Having owned a few Classdaudio amps in the past, I've always been impressed with their overall value and fit/finish. Although the Mini GaN 3 is much smaller than my previous Classdaudio amps, the quality fit/finish and overall feel of the amp remains exceptional at this price point. In regard to the sound, very good with exceptional bass response. While not quite at the level of my tube amps in regard to midrange presence, its bass response surpasses them. All in all, a superb value IMHO.
Class D amps always have good bass, the rest is lacking.
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Just a quick caveat to the above assessment. The Mini GaN 3 was NOT used with a Spatial speaker in this case. That said, I'm fairly confident there would be no compatibility issues.
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Class D amps always have good bass, the rest is lacking.
Point well taken. Yet better than one might think at this price point. Still, tube amps rule the midrange with overall "in the room" presence.
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Timely topic. Today, the amp on my second system gave out, so I began searching for a replacement and ran into this thread. I just pulled the trigger on a Mini gaN 5 which will be paired with a tube preamp. I took advantage of their Labor Day sale which is $10 off. :lol:
I'm sold on Class D. My main system is powered by Purifi modules. Best amp I've ever owned.
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The monos use the stereo chassis for now. Tom blocks the 2 speaker binding post holes and XLR input with some kind of very dense material possibly a plastic which is secured by screws. Very tight and not at all hokey or DIY garage stuff. I respectfully disagree with Mick Wolfe (and maybe Mr. Big) concerning mid-range presence. Not in the sense that the Wolfe contends his tube amps give a better midrange presence. I can't argue with his experience (or Mr. Big's for that matter). But, I'm using monos, not the stereo version and I can say that these amps appear, in every way, to be the equal of my tube amps albeit they are 50 watt class A not 300 watt class D. To me, the point is that the Mini Gans are every bit as satisfying and, in fact to my brain, more so, than my tube amps. I'm currently using the Psvane 845's and I'll put them up against any 845 amp made. As I've stated previously, I've owned Nagra, Cary, Bel Canto and these Psvanes. But, the goofy little Mini Gan 5's are just that good to my ears. Likewise, the Bel Canto eRef 600's which have garnered rave reviews and deservedly so. But these MiniGans rule IMO. And I would humbly, sincerely so, remind the doubters that until you've actually listened to these amps, you don't have an informed opinion. I keep listening to them to see if I'll derive the same sense, feelings, conclusions about their musicality. So far, I do. And understand I would never disserve my brothers and sisters in this forum if I thought otherwise. I would much prefer to embarrass myself by publicly admitting I've changed my mind (I made a mistake!) about these amps, than be the cause of someone here spending $ because I knowingly misled them and lacked the integrity to admit it. Not going to happen.
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One more thing: The Wolfe's minGan 3 is a stereo amp with 120 watts/channel while, again, the stereo 5 being 200 watts/channel unless you get the monos (I'm using) which increases to 300 watts/channel and 400 watts @ 4 ohms (relevant given the M3's impedance curve). It could make a difference in mid-range presence and bass. And, FWIW, how does one value exceptional bass (which the miniGans deliver) even against a tube amp which one feels might score higher in midrange presence but has, by comparison, a much less musical bass presentation? I'm trying to suggest that you needn't give up exceptional bass to gain tube-like mid-range presence. I know I sound crazy. Believe me. Who knows - maybe it's time for me to move to Happy Acres and buy a bib. But rest assured - I'm takin' the miniGans with me.
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One more thing: The Wolfe's minGan 3 is a stereo amp with 120 watts/channel while, again, the stereo 5 being 200 watts/channel unless you get the monos (I'm using) which increases to 300 watts/channel and 400 watts @ 4 ohms (relevant given the M3's impedance curve). It could make a difference in mid-range presence and bass. And, FWIW, how does one value exceptional bass (which the miniGans deliver) even against a tube amp which one feels might score higher in midrange presence but has, by comparison, a much less musical bass presentation? I'm trying to suggest that you needn't give up exceptional bass to gain tube-like mid-range presence. I know I sound crazy. Believe me. Who knows - maybe it's time for me to move to Happy Acres and buy a bib. But rest assured - I'm takin' the miniGans with me.
What preamp are you using?
Also, I think Happy Acres supplies the bibs for free, at least, they did for me. :D
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Dr. Z,
Was using a BAT VK-52SE. Got really tired of dealing with the 6h30's (at least one was, too often, unhappy about something and spitting, noisy, etc.) so I got rid of it and just started using the DAC. Now using Okto Research DAC 8's upstairs and downstairs. Outstanding DAC w/volume control. Additionally, after reading Atkinson's review on the Topping Pre90 (a glowing review) I'm trying that as well with the DAC's volume control by-passed. I was thinking of starting a new thread - Are We Ready To Simplify- because that's the direction I'm heading. Sound with DAC alone (and even slightly more so with Pre 90) remains vivid, dimensional, but with a much, much quieter background allowing for greater immediacy and detail, IMO, than the BAT or any other tube pre's I've owned. I'm really looking for the proverbial wire with gain (fix tone issues upstream) and the naked DAC and/or Topping seem closer to that than any preamp I've owned. Where impedance and/or voltage values make a pre necessary, well, that's why I'm trying the Pre90.
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1 step ahead on simplification… 1 device streamer/ dac preamp, 2 mono amps. No tubes no tweaks, no going back.
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Thanks for sharing your impressions. These sound impressive. I've been thinking about trying GaN monoblocks with my M3s that are coming soon. I should be picking them up in SLC in a week or so (so, so excited!). I've been looking at these Class D mini monoblocks and Orchard Audio Starkrimson monoblocks.
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Bingenito - :thumb: Trending in your direction albeit not there yet. But sitting here listening to Brad Mehldau & Charlie Haden, coming through a DAC into a pair of monoblocks is so satisfying that I simply have no desire to complicate with additional components. Perhaps, like me, you suffered over the years from a nagging concern that you're not getting the best out of your system or that you're missing some essential aspect of musicality requiring?? But, at least for now, it seems the nervosa has quieted... In fact, as some may recall, I was considering upgrading to the X4. But with these new amps I'm even less inclined now than previously where, I think, it was Daryl Zero who sagely suggested something along the lines of "easy boy" - if it sounds good maybe leave it alone...
Tapestry Untied - The Orchard Audio kit also seems to garner nothing but compliments. It may be premature to claim the audio landscape is moving toward gallium nitride but I think as the tech gains in public awareness its competitive sound and other obvious attributes will force even audio diehards to reconsider class D. And this coming from a diehard tube guy.
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The monos use the stereo chassis for now. Tom blocks the 2 speaker binding post holes and XLR input with some kind of very dense material possibly a plastic which is secured by screws. Very tight and not at all hokey or DIY garage stuff.
Thanks. It makes good economic sense to have a set of cases made at volume and then seal up the unused mount holes for the monoblocks.
I do have two more questions about the physical construction, if you are willing to field them:
1. Can the blazing blue light be turned off? It looks absurdly bright, blasting out of the top cover like a disco in some pictures I've seen.
2. What speaker binding posts are used? I've seen a lot of cheapy Alibaba binding posts on digital amps assembled by small shops. The WBT look-alikes have extremely thin brassy metal strips, and some places even use slip on connectors instead of solder.
Commenting generally (not aimed at the originator of the discussion here!) — Adding 50 words of text to the website would go a long way. In the communications you shared, the owner notes the influx of e-mails asking questions and the time taken away from manufacturing to answer the e-mails. It might lower the burden to provide more specifics on the website.
Also, given the distraction that the Audio Science Review measurements have caused the company, why not send an amp that is working to specs out to get measured and post the correct measurements on the site? The cost to do that should be offset by the time saved in fielding questions about what appeared to be a second-hand amp that was damaged and not working properly. Certainly when ASR found that the amp would not function on powering up, they should have had the integrity to validate with the manufacturer that it was in working order. But that's an issue for elsewhere.
The excellent sound and efficiency are intriguing. I look forward to further thoughts on the sound with the M3 Sapphires. It looks like at least one other person is going to give it a try!
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You have to wonder about this manufacturer. Here today is gone tomorrow?. The site is just not that good.
concur. site not that good. 15/21 day return discrepancy. premium/classdaudio confusion. the crappy asr disparagement. but given the strong positive reviews here from people who have heard the amps, and the owner's perspective that he is busy building amps not updating websites, these amps seem like a risk worth taking at their relatively low price pont. esp for a handmade in the USA product.
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NewZoo - your comments are dead on. I raised these very issues with Tom who suggested that he just doesn't have the time. Another snippet from Tom:
" So back to Amir, whenever this is brought up again, I will be sitting at my computer answering questions about Amir for several days rather than out in the shop working. Of course we do have a video in the works that will show all of the data, stats, etc. to counter this, but we've been so busy we just don't have it finished yet... it's tough being a small company.
That being said, thank you. I think this will help others understand that we do really have a great product. If I can't put out something better than what's out there and for a better price, I just wouldn't waste my time. The market is flooded with amplifiers, and the audio market is just flooded with smoke and snake oil. I can tell you also, just because these other products on the market cost so much more doesn't mean it costs them more to make them. We don't cut corners."
When I indicated the "less than compelling responses from Tom," I was thinking like you - why not post specs? Oh well.. I just kept coming back to the 15 day trial period. If no likey, returney. Simple. The binding posts are certainly sufficient and sturdy enough. Can't tell the brand but they tighten down with no issues. Can't find any way to dim the blue lights although I kind of like'em. Listening now to a Brahms piano concerto and amazed. Yes, Tom could use some marketing assistance but the product is, thus far, IMO, beyond reproach.
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NewZoo - your comments are dead on. I raised these very issues with Tom who suggested that he just doesn't have the time.
Thanks!
I do wish them luck. I am tempted to order a monoblock pair to try, but I know that I could not keep them in my system with blazing blue lights shining all over the ceiling and wall through the vents in the amps.
I could put tape over an obnoxiously bright light on the front, given the price. But there would be no way to shield the light spraying out of the vents without obstructing airflow.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=244498)
[The photo is from a discussion thread on ASR, found using an image search. Not my photo.]
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I never found the blue light emitting from the Mini GaN 3 to be a distraction. I guess it would be a problem if one listens while hovering over the amp. Lights on the faceplate can be taken care of with Light Dims. But then again and in all fairness, I'm used to looking at glowing tubes most of the time anyway.
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Here is an interesting thread with user feedback on the Orchard Audio Ultra that was recently very positively reviewed by “Secrets”.
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/orchard-audio-starkrimson-stereo-ultra-amp-tour.1148415/
I’ve got my name on the tour list… I’m maybe 6-8 weeks away from having the amp for a week to try with my M3 Sapphires and a buddies Maggie 3.7is.
Having had a great experience with the 2Cherry… and knowing that Leo and Tommy swapped ideas from time to time, I expect his amp to sound pretty good… but whether it sounds good in anyone’s specific system… that is why there is a trial period.
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Orchard Audio seems to be doing things right.
They have an in-house, made in USA/Canada GaN design like the Mini GaN 5, but they manage to post measurements and information about the amps while offering monoblocks for essentially the same price as classdaudio ($1500 vs. $1400).
They also manage not to crap up the simple cases with blazing blue LEDs and huge lettering on the front.
Orchard also obtains professional reviews, not just posting quotes from users.
Orchard participates in forums and also posts white papers describing their technical approach.
I'm not contributing to a discussion of how these amps sound, I know.
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New Zoo - your points are mostly correct. However note that the MiniGan is substantially more powerful (300 watts 8 ohms & 400 watts @ 4ohms) than the Orchard monos (150 watts @ 8 & 4 ohms). Further, no charge from Class D Audio for gain modification (3 settings). So they're really different animals. When you add higher gain to the Orchards the price differential increases ($300) and you're still, apparently, left with significantly less powerful amps that have considerably less power (150 watts @ 4 ohms) where the M3's arguably need it most (4 ohms). Can't comment on the quality of the power supplies which Orchard charges another $300 if you want to upgrade to 300 watts. Further, the warranty on the MiniGan is substantially longer (3 years) as opposed to 1 year for the Orchards. That's particularly meaningful to me. Finally, the Orchard requires XLR to RCA adapters for those using RCA's. I don't like using adapters. Orchard is a new company started in 2017 so it's not like they're a long established enterprise either. Only pointing out differences to make the comparison more fair and accurate. I'm not in any way discounting the beauty or innovative qualities of Orchard's products. I looked at Orchard before trying out the MiniGans (and I'm still in the trial period) and decided to give the MiniGans a try because they seem a better value and, actually, I prefer their casement. I couldn't understand how a 5 lb. amp could be "built like a tank." But when you hold these amps they are absolutely solid and have a well-crafted sense about them. And, now that I've heard them, after about a week of listening, I can say I intend to keep them. That may change but that's where I stand as I write this a.m.
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Consider this review for Orchard's Starkrimson Ultra:
"Another great surprise was how much more I heard out of my Spatial Audio M4 Triode Master open-baffle speakers with the Starkrimson Stereo Ultra. These speakers were always capable of disappearing, whether they were powered with a 30W tube amp or a 500W solid-state amp, but the Starkrimson Stereo Ultra gave them a speed and transparency I’d never heard from them. So much more of the mid-to lower-range of music I hadn’t heard out of those speakers became readily apparent, and, once again, bass imaging improved in ways I didn’t think possible with this speaker. I have found these speakers to be particularly easy to drive; I once used a 2.5W amp on them to great effect, even with their 93db efficiency rating. But feeding them up to 500W with the Starkrimson Stereo Ultra gave me the best sound out of them I’ve ever heard. Of particular note was the improvement in vocals. I heard depths of human emotion and intent with the Starkrimson Stereo Ultra that I hadn’t heard before. That’s the kind of low-level detail this amplifier is capable of expressing."
So, the point is, whatever and whose-ever gallium nitride amps you consider, TRY THEM if they have a listening-return policy. The above review is what I tried to communicate in the first posting in this thread. You may not know what the M3's (or their siblings) are capable of until you do.
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Thank you. Yes, I will definitely need to give the new Class D a try if only to satisfy curiosity!
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NewZooReview - try "Class D Audio" for the monoblocks. They're listed.
Catluck, as a "cat" with good "luck", it appears, you landed on your feet here! Happen to have a hopefully full set of specs for the monoblocks?
Thanks............Mario
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NewZooReview - try "Class D Audio" for the monoblocks. They're listed.
Listed?
I am most strongly considering the Monoblock VTV Amplifiers using the Purifi 1ET7040SA modules. They use real WTB binding posts and offer a 30-day trial. They also offer a choice of op-amps on the input stage that are user swappable to tweak the sound if desired. The LEDs are under control (and can be turned off), and they have been very widely reviewed.
As much as I might be rooting for the Mini GaN 5, it seems as if the amp and the company need to mature. The outputs are soldered internally to thin brass tabs secured to the binding posts with steel nuts--$9 e-bay cheepies. There's even a mod website already offering to retrofit WBTs to the GaN 5, but it requires drilling out the holes in the back panel because the opening is much too small.
The reviews on the Mini GaN 5 are all user testimonials, and the vast majority are one paragraph and compare the GaN 5 to mid-fi gear ("it sounds better than my Emotiva/NAD"). There are a couple of exceptions, and I hope the range expands.
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I am not for the ultra-expensive gear, but you do get what you pay for and any business sells their products for what they feel they are worth or they are not in business. If the price is too cheap that tells you something right there, whereas at the other extreme is way overbuilt gear cosmetically so they can ask $$$$$ and up. Got to pay something for real quality and reliability.
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The reviews on the Mini GaN 5 are all user testimonials, and the vast majority are one paragraph and compare the GaN 5 to mid-fi gear ("it sounds better than my Emotiva/NAD"). There are a couple of exceptions, and I hope the range expands.
It's a great achievement if this $735 amp can perform better than most mid-fi amps.
BTW -- I have a VTV amp and they're made to a price point, especially the chassis. The WBT's cost extra. Not much different than this amp. Who cares? You're buying what matters most -- the modules and opamps. A prettier chassis with premium binding posts will double the price and offer no significant sonic improvement, and a tricked-out power supply may sound better, but it will quadruple the price.
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For me, there are two other important factors to consider in addition to sound:
1. Can I get it fixed if anything happens to the guy who built it?
2. Will the resale value be below 60% of what I paid?
I understand… many may not share these concerns.
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My Mini GaN 5 arrived today. I didn't expect USPS to deliver on Labor Day. Anyway, last week, my Emotiva amp went bad, so I was considering replacement options when I ran across this thread. This tiny box sounds incredible -- far better than the Emotiva it replaced. Class D amps all seem to have two things in common -- exceptional clarity and detail. I'm sold on Class D amps now. No more heavy amps with big-ass toroidal transformers. This amp only weighs 5 pounds.
Newzoo -- the blue light is not an issue, although the binding posts are super cheap, but who cares?
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I with you Early B. Pick up amp with one hand, bring to your buddies house, not throw out you lower back deadlifting a 150lb amp with sharp heat sinks and uneven weight distribution.
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Seems to me whether amp sounds great or just good or okay matters more than whether it is easy to carry around? I have mini Gan5 ordered to try on Spatial X3. Decware SE84 UFO25 SET amp now. Expect I will send the mini back pretty quick but will keep open mind/ear before I decide.
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Early B - so glad you enjoy the sound of the MiniGan. When you have a moment, if you're so inclined, let us know if you noticed changes in your system's presentation which you attribute to the amps. As for the cheap speaker binding posts, I find them sufficient and as Tom noted in an email to me (in response to changing out the stock fuse to replace with Furutech fuses),
"I do understand this is audio and everyone wants to upgrade everything.... I spent most of my life since the early 70's into audio equipment. I spent so much time modding equipment also. These older products were easier to work on, but not any more. If I thought something needed upgrading, it would already be integrated into the design. I don't try to save money using less expensive parts to meet a price point but instead design the product they way I think it should be and then set the price. I'm sure you know that these are way under priced and I'n sure the best value in audio today. Sorry for rambling... I'm just kind of passionate about these little amps!"
I've found, over decades in this pursuit, that the upgrade mania often results in less than hoped for results. Certainly, not always but often. I recall upgrading, significantly, Hartung OTL 125's. Major improvements. But speaker binding posts? I've done that too and not so much of a discernable improvement, if any. But, always, to each their own.
Lazbisme - I wonder about an "open mind" when your sentence indicates a bias or expectation to return the amps pretty quickly. No big deal. We're all just chasing our dreams of musical splendor.
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I am not for the ultra-expensive gear, but you do get what you pay for and any business sells their products for what they feel they are worth or they are not in business. If the price is too cheap that tells you something right there, whereas at the other extreme is way overbuilt gear cosmetically so they can ask $$$$$ and up. Got to pay something for real quality and reliability.
Mr. Big, your point is well taken. But it raises issues related to marketing costs, distributor mark-ups (100%? typically), overbuilding, etc. So what constitutes "too cheap"? Take SA speakers for instance. If these speaks sold in retail outlets they would cost something like double their price. So, obviously, in this case, there is NO difference whatsoever between a speaker (M3) costing $11,000 purchased at a toney retailer's store vs a speaker costing $5,500 (M3'S actual price purchased directly from SA). Class D Audio mimics SA's sales program, i.e., direct sales, no marketing costs, etc. My point: price, in and of itself, is not necessarily a reliable indicator of quality. Other factors must be considered.
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I understand selling direct is a saving, but you still get value for money paid and quality. Yes, spatial speakers would cost more in a store, but the store does incur additional costs for staff, store rent, and so on. But even then Clayton's prices are based on the value Clayton says they should sell at, if he asks for a speaker for $20,000 then he would feel that what you receive sound-wise is a fair selling price and also based on sound quality and cabinet costs plus the hours to design the speaker. I worked for Sony, our SCD1 SACD player cost $5,000 or more back then, due to Sony's size and production it was more than reasonably priced, but if you and a small Boutique high-end manufacturer can name a name that unit has been selling for $20,000 or more and till this day if you looked inside of that unit, it looked like a piece of medical equipment it was so well designed and made. Esoteric asks $20,000 for their top-of-the-line unit and it is not made any better than the Sony, in fact, their transport is a large part of their asking price. It is a wonderful unit though and sounds great!. So cost has many factors company size, production power, parts cost,, etc. I by no means mean to say a good-sounding product cannot be very affordable, but the price asked is the price that the designer feels it is worth and of course to make a profit and stay in business.
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Mr. Big,
I am inclined to agree with you. I know from personal experience in the automobile business that if you price a car too cheap it is as difficult, if not more, to sell than one priced too high. The buying public is always suspicious of too low a price for fear there is something wrong with it.
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@lazbisme's observation reminds me of back in the days of "coal fired PCs"... (the 70s) where a modem program that sold for $29.95 that was excellent, flexible and efficient never really caught on... until they jacked the price to something like $129.95. At that price they couldn't keep them on the shelves. Modern marketing in action. Go figure...
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My mini GAN5s shipped today. Up to USPS now......
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My mini GAN5s shipped today. Up to USPS now......
Did you order a monoblock pair?
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no thought about the plural s after I posted
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Lazbisme - congrats (I hope). Driving the MiniGan 5 monos with a Schiit Freya+ (with, admittedly, high zoot tubes) and I can say, after more than a week of listening, the combo provides the most satisfying music I've heard from the M3's. Elegant, detailed, dynamic with superb tone/timbre. They are different speakers. You may recall that I was considering trading up to the X4. NO MORE. I think it was Daryl Zero who suggested "leave well enough alone." That's certainly the case now. My wife mocks me when I say this might be my end-game (she's heard that crap too many times) but even she admits to the extraordinary presentation wrought by the MiniGans. It's the sound I've been hankering for forever it seems. For now I can't/don't see going back to BIG, HEAVY, GLUTTONOUS POWER CONSUMPTION, and HOT (albeit the Freya runs really warm/hot). Listening to "Dialogue with Double Bass" (Bridge CD - Jeremy McCoy) [Glorious recording/music] and transfixed. Feels like done.
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Great, Catluck! Getting to where you are is a place some never reach. I could not justify the monoblocks thinking almost double the price and really only gaining separate power supplies. I know, power supplies are extremely important..... Your words give me hope that the mini5 will be wonderful for me as well. USPS says it is in transit from Anaheim as of this morning at 1:40AM!
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lazbisme - I'm excited for you man. Hope it works out.
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Here is a review along with some videos on the Mini amps.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/gallium-nitride-amplifier-impressions-of-the-mini-gan-5-by-premium-audio-pictures-video-inside.26698/
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As one of my earlier posts noted, I was aware of the ASR on the MiniGan before I purchased them. In fact, I posted Tom's comments on the review. I also responded, on ASR, to Daniboun's review of the MiniGan. None of it matters to me now. I'm able to listen for myself and judge. That's all I've encouraged with this thread. I would note, however, that one of the contributors to this thread has pronounced the sound of the unit he just purchased as "incredible." And, as noted, I concur. FWIW
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catluck,
miniGAN5 arrived this morning. FAST delivery from California. Hooked it up to the SPATIAL X3s. Superb! Dumbstruck! IMPOSSIBLE! Will ned to listen in depth for a while before I decide whether to trade the tubes for GaN. On standby for now!! Thanks for the encouragement. I think.............. :oops: :duh: :thumb:
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Lazbisme - SO pleased for you. Listening to a piano concerto (Roger Mas) and I, like you, just can't believe how good the M3's sound. I think you'll find the amazement continues for some time. The beauty and clarity just don't seem to diminish. Further, Tom noted in an email that the amps do continue to improve for about the first month. Enjoy.
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well, about 4 days in and the X3s really like the miniGAM5 amp! Still deciding. Have not turned amp off since first turn on and it is just warm on top. The Beyma AMT tweeters are singing a wonderful tune now. ZERO harshness, only crystalline shimmering highs! The control on the mid driver is ironclad. The plate amps on the "woofer/sub" seem to like the signal too. So far; ZERO NEGATIVES. :violin: :drums: :guitar: :dance:
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oh, and all the vocalists love it too!
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I enjoy the conversation. Being 67 and just in last 2+ years getting back to thrill of music in dedicated room. I have a stereo Class D from the late Tommy O'Brien. This amp driving Teketon Lore Be's with Rythmik 12. Very musical. I can't describe, just well maybe " dynamic', Tommy was a great designer of audio gear, and a nice man. Good to see Class D getting appreciation which is deserved. Playing Big Big Train " Welcome To The Planet". FANTASTIC.
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Lazbisme,
I couldn't be happier for you. There's nothing like the feeling that we're hearing our systems at their best and particularly when "best" is so satisfying to us on our own objective basis. Just an FYI, I ordered a pair of Orchard Audio Starkrimson mono's for comparison with the Class D Audio gaNfets. I'll let you know. But in the meantime, I'm so pleased that you're enjoying what you're hearing from the MiniGans. Me too!!! I love'em.
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catluck,
Can't wait to hear your impressions between the two amps. I'm debating trying one or the other when my M3s are ready. I thought I'd be driving to SLC to pick them up next weekend but it turns out the woofers were delayed coming in from Spain and are in customs now
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catluck,
I will also be interested to hear your impressions. Leo (Orchard Audio) has one of his Ganfet Ultra dual mono amps on tour to members at SHF and I am in the cue to get one to try in about a month....and I will report back. It will run it in two systems, mine with the M3 Sapphires and a buddy's with the Magnepan 3.7i.
My Sapphires sounded great with the 2Cherry (non ganfet class d) which I would describe as low distortion but some residual 3rd harmonic.
They sound maybe even slightly better (more tonal density) with my current amp from Wells which is a high bias Class a/b...with 2nd harmonic residuals.
The Ultra, per Leo, is intended to be super low distortion, straight wire with gain...so I'm thinking it will sound slightly different than either the Cherry or the Wells...tbd.
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Should receive the Orchard Starkrimson monos today. I'll replace the MiniGan 5's listen and let you know what I hear. FWIW, the MiniGans continue to impress mightily. Listening to Houston Person/Ron Carter (Chemistry) and the sound is detailed, rich, .... couldn't be more satisfied. I don't think.
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catluck,
I will also be interested to hear your impressions. Leo (Orchard Audio) has one of his Ganfet Ultra dual mono amps on tour to members at SHF and I am in the cue to get one to try in about a month....and I will report back. It will run it in two systems, mine with the M3 Sapphires and a buddy's with the Magnepan 3.7i.
My Sapphires sounded great with the 2Cherry (non ganfet class d) which I would describe as low distortion but some residual 3rd harmonic.
They sound maybe even slightly better (more tonal density) with my current amp from Wells which is a high bias Class a/b...with 2nd harmonic residuals.
The Ultra, per Leo, is intended to be super low distortion, straight wire with gain...so I'm thinking it will sound slightly different than either the Cherry or the Wells...tbd.
Ron will you ask him if he’d be open to an AC tour here for Spatial owners and/or former Cherry owners? I’d love to hear that new Orchard amp. TIA if possible and if not no biggie.
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Yes, please! I signed up for the other tour but surely one for this group would surely go much faster.
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Agreed. I miss my Cherry Mesgachsino amp and would like to here the Purifi offerings with opamps from VTV and Apollon Vs the Gan amps here Vs Orchard as well as the AGD amps. Would be a great shootout to have them all in one place or at least half of the above and I'm freaking tired of buying and selling amps to demo them!
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Ron will you ask him if he’d be open to an AC tour here for Spatial owners and/or former Cherry owners? I’d love to hear that new Orchard amp. TIA if possible and if not no biggie.
what a great idea. if a number of us find that the amp sounds as good as the reports below indicate, he will make a number of sales from us spatial geeks.
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Ron will you ask him if he’d be open to an AC tour here for Spatial owners and/or former Cherry owners? I’d love to hear that new Orchard amp. TIA if possible and if not no biggie.
Why limit the tour?
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I was proposing where to start the tour, didn't mean to limit anyone.
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I was proposing where to start the tour, didn't mean to limit anyone.
:thumb:
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Here is the link at SHF… you might consider joining and then posting a request to join the tour. You have to agree to cover all the cost of shipping and insurance to the next person on the list… and to post an honest perspective of what you heard.
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/orchard-audio-starkrimson-stereo-ultra-amp-tour.1148415/
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Sweet. Thanks
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Listening to the Orchard Audio Starkrimson monos. Contrasting with the Class D Audio monos. Seems as though both present uber-clarity and transparency with profound bass. There's something about GanFets; it's a kind of refined, elegant quiet. The proverbial black background. Like the Class D Audio monos, the Orchards are dead quiet in operation. No discernable hiss, noise, buzz with ear touching M3 tweeter cage. Excellent voice separation (clarinet, bass, guitar, etc.). Soundstage is WIDE with perhaps foreshortened depth (which could certainly be the fault of my setup/room and probably is). There's a lilting quality in piano notes that is sooooo satisfying. No absence of attack or decay but just a delicacy in presentation.... even when you listen louder than usual, the scaling in tone and dynamics remains balanced and, well, just musically consistent with what you'd expect to hear from the real thing. This dynamic scaling/tonal consistency was immediately apparent with trumpet/fleugel. And I know because I grew up with a father who played trumpet during my entire childhood. I KNOW the sound of trumpet and its ability to go from soft to LOUD, like instantly. And whether Miles, Chet, Fats, Enrico, Thomas, etc., trumpets can scale dynamically... But these amps (both Orchard and Class D) hold the line without ever crossing over into strident. Again, so satisfying. And they do it with a tonal purity that you just have to hear. The Orchard units weigh 2 lbs. (absent outboard power supply) and they sound absolutely amazing. They're sitting on top of a pair of 100 lb. 845 monoblocks which I have not fired up since getting these GanFet units. I have no desire to. And that's really the tell. Generally, my habit has been to pursue new/different when I felt l just wasn't getting what I was after in sound quality. Maybe for the first time in 45 years of listening, I have no impetus to move on from GanFets. Could change, yes. But there is definitely something new, crazy satisfying going on here. Can't make any statement yet re: which are better - Orchard or Class D? The Class D chassis, is to my sensibility, is more elegant and aesthetically pleasing. I'm not a huge fan of the Orchard outboard power supply but it's no big deal. Listening to "Healing Power" containing sax, guitar and bass. Extraordinary. The M3's sound better than ever. FWIW.
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Catluck
Well said sir. Looks like there is some good to 2022 :lol: The world is going to **** but the new era of power amps are killer.
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Catluck, are you using the single ended or balanced inputs on these amps?
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As you probably know, the Orchards come with only XLR (albeit RCA adapters are provided). I'm all native XLR. I can say that the better the recording quality the more apparent the GanFet voice. There does seem to be a GanFet "house sound" (and, yeah, I've know, I've listened to a whole 2 GanFet amps. I'm a big expert - yeah). But with the Orchard and the Class D Audio units, their sound is, well, it's relaxed. I keep thinking about the old saw, "you don't hear grain", you "hear" the absence of it. Music seems more grounded, solid.... I actually think it might be the absence of noise/distortion but, admittedly, I have no F'ing idea. Try to remember the first time you heard really good kit and you thought something like, "WOW...the tone is so pure... the bass so elegant...chewy...textured...the upper frequencies so clean and pitch-rich..." It's like that.... all over again.... A reinvigorated interest in sound presentation. It's happened only a few times for me over the decades so, yes, I'm enjoying it. But to keep it relevant to SA, the M3's were already satisfying but driven with GanFets.... I'm trying to contain my enthusiasm because I don't want to be subsequently embarrassed if I change my mind. But unless I'm not hearing what I think I'm hearing the M3's are performing at a level I've not heard previously and the only change is the amps.
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Paragraph breaks. The pause that refreshes. Guys, some of your posts are darn hard to read.
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Yeah I’m just wondering how much of a difference it makes to go balanced into these amps. I think Mick’s been using his singled ended and hasn’t been quite as effusive in his praise as you have been. He’s another 845 lover.
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Paragraph breaks. The pause that refreshes. Guys, some of your posts are darn hard to read.
+1 I good naturedly agree!
Thank you for your observations and comparisons of the GaN amps, however. It's intriguing, even if you are competing with Faulkner in prose style.
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Morganc
Congrats… you are welcome.
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Paragraph breaks. The pause that refreshes. Guys, some of your posts are darn hard to read.
cant comment yet on balanced GaN, since dont have one YET, but going balanced into my nCore 500 amp does make a positive difference. its really good with single ended RCA. its even better with balanced XLR. its opening my eyes to both class D and balanced. they seem to make a good combo.
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I was able to join the Orchard Tour. If anyone in Northern Arizona wants to visit hit me up.
Am holding to have the Class D Mini Gan as well.
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Has anyone paired their (fully passive) Spatial Audio speakers with Bel Canto REF600M amps? If so, what were your impressions compared to other class D amps or any other amps you have used with your Spatial Audio speakers? This post is very interesting concerning the Gallium Nitride amps.
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Catluck has - see his original post
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Catluck has - see his original post
Thanks! I missed that as I’ve been reading all the latest posts for the last several days. Much appreciated…
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DBT - As noted I just sold my Bel Canto eRef 600's. Fabulous amps. I really enjoyed their purity, increased bass and quietude. For Class D, truly excellent musicality. The gallium nitride products are in a different league. I'm beginning to think that MOSFET based designs are yesterday's tech, i.e., dinosaurs. Yes, there remain many great sounding MOSFET designs. But GanFets, in terms of switching frequency (3x's MOSFETS), slew rate (significantly faster), replication of square wave (less ringing/overshoot), significant reduction in THD/IM distortion, etc., simply eclipse MOSFETS' performance (if the reporting is to be believed). MOSFETS simply cannot challenge GanFets' technical superiority. It wouldn't matter, admittedly, if the GanFets' superior performance characteristics didn't manifest in a more musical presentation but they certainly seem to. And all that without considering the enormously reduced: cost, weight, heat, power consumption, packaging materials, materials consumption, ease of placement, etc., of GanFet products in comparison to most MOSFET products.
Also, apologies for the lengthy posts absent paragraph breaks. I know better and I'll do better.
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Seems like everyone is enjoying their class D amps. I heard a few up to $10,000 and they all were very clean and clear with very good bass and enjoyable change of sound. Myself I go to live concerts and I'll stick with my class A/B because overall the sound is more to how I hear live music. But this hobby is about enjoying your music and if class D sound is enjoyable kick back and enjoys it. It is very affordable for sure and a good bang for the buck. But I would not put down class A/B or Class A amps they also have their important reproduction sound points even though class D does sound different which can be refreshing.
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I heard a few up to $10,000 and they all were very clean and clear with very good bass and enjoyable change of sound.
Which ones have you compared in your system?
I had a Tripath-based and an Wyred4Sound Ice-based monoblock pair, but that was a long while ago, and not with the M3 Sapphires. By all accounts the recent Purifi and GaN-based amps are different than earlier class D.
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1. Element 114 Stereo Power Amplifier (Cleanest)
2. PS Audio 1200 (most musical)
3. Jeff Rowland Model 625 ( Best of both above)
Enjoyed all, and kept my A/B.
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Which A/B amp, Mr. Big?
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1. Element 114 Stereo Power Amplifier (Cleanest)
2. PS Audio 1200 (most musical)
3. Jeff Rowland Model 625 ( Best of both above)
Enjoyed all, and kept my A/B.
Thanks. Those are some nice amps. The Element is $16,000. The PS Audio is $6,598. And the Model 625 S2 is $16,000 (judging from second-hand information online; the manufacturer's site posts no price). I expect that any of them would add some refinement, if not more, compared to my Pass Labs XA25.
What was is the class A/B amp that you preferred to the class D amps you tried?
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DBT - As noted I just sold my Bel Canto eRef 600's. Fabulous amps. I really enjoyed their purity, increased bass and quietude. For Class D, truly excellent musicality. The gallium nitride products are in a different league. I'm beginning to think that MOSFET based designs are yesterday's tech, i.e., dinosaurs. Yes, there remain many great sounding MOSFET designs. But GanFets, in terms of switching frequency (3x's MOSFETS), slew rate (significantly faster), replication of square wave (less ringing/overshoot), significant reduction in THD/IM distortion, etc., simply eclipse MOSFETS' performance (if the reporting is to be believed). MOSFETS simply cannot challenge GanFets' technical superiority. It wouldn't matter, admittedly, if the GanFets' superior performance characteristics didn't manifest in a more musical presentation but they certainly seem to. And all that without considering the enormously reduced: cost, weight, heat, power consumption, packaging materials, materials consumption, ease of placement, etc., of GanFet products in comparison to most MOSFET products.
Also, apologies for the lengthy posts absent paragraph breaks. I know better and I'll do better.
No need to apologize, I appreciate the detailed response. I owned the PS Audio M700 mono blocks a few years ago, but they were paired with my Paradigm Signature 6 speakers and I thought they outperformed my Bryston 4Bsst. I sold them when I bought my X5s and joined the club of vacuum tubes. Now, I'm back to solid state with my Luxman which I really like. Thanks for your feedback!
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Thanks. Those are some nice amps. The Element is $16,000. The PS Audio is $6,598. And the Model 625 S2 is $16,000 (judging from second-hand information online; the manufacturer's site posts no price). I expect that any of them would add some refinement, if not more, compared to my Pass Labs XA25.
What was is the class A/B amp that you preferred to the class D amps you tried?
A/B AMPS. McIntosh MC402, Mark Levinson 532H, Parasound JC5, and lately my Luxman 600A. I rotate amps as I buy new ones. I keep my gear and I can have a new system as I tire of the old sound that I get used which is why we all fall in love with new gear, it may not really be better but it sounds fresh to our ears and makes us sit up and notice and listens for a change, something we stop doing after having a system sound in house for a while and we stop taken notice on changes and don't listen as intently as when we bring new gear home to try, that is really how we chase our tail and how they sell us on the change of sound any given piece or gear can do or much cheaper a better power cord.
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One can always switch to a great tube amp and only have to buy new/different tubes to "change the sound" as often as you wish. You can even keep the same amp and change speakers and "roll" the tubes to tune it to your new speakers! Plus, if it is a quality amp(DECWARE SET is my choice at the moment), the sound will be glorious!
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A/B AMPS. McIntosh MC402, Mark Levinson 532H, Parasound JC5, and lately my Luxman 600A.
Thanks. I would also be surprised if the Orchard or Class D (company) GaN amps sounded better than those.
The M3 Sapphires do sound better than some more expensive box speakers, however, so there is sometimes a chance for better design to win out at a lower cost!
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Mr. Big - don't disagree with your comments re: new sound might be "refreshing" and, at least for a moment, desired above other topologies. Strikes me as wise words. The interesting thing for me is that I've been a tube guy, mostly, for over 30 years. So, for instance, in the upstairs system, I'm all tubes (KT88, 300B, 6C33) and, as I've written, downstairs I run 845's. I love tube artifacts. But, listening to the Orchard Starkrimson monos upstairs, on the big Merlins (M3's are downstairs) a funny thing happened yesterday. I was listening to Kelly Joe Phelps "Slingshot Professionals," a great recording of great music. At first, the presentation struck me as somewhat disorganized and confusing. I kind of couldn't make sense of what was presented. But as I continued to listen, and I've listened to this recording many times, I realized that I was hearing information (harmonics off steel strings, deep background voices like organ, drum symbols, etc.) which I hadn't noticed previously. Tambourine zills had an astonishing pitch and location which I don't recall my tube gear presenting as clearly. After about 10 minutes I was able to "make sense" of the additional information and it was, I hate to use this word again but.... revelatory. I simply heard this music in a way that I had not previously heard it (or, at least, don't remember ever having heard it this way) and the experience was so pleasing.
Still, you could be right - perhaps I'll find this fatiguing and return to tubes. Too early to say. But, man, Kelly Joe sounded good. And one last thing: I know when I'm enjoying the sound of gear if I listen longer than I intended to or usually do. That's been happening everyday since I started with these GanFet products. Purely anecdotal I admit and, again, you could be right that I'll tire of the sound and return home to tubes. But I wonder...
I'm thinking perhaps, New Zoo nailed it when noting that, sometimes, a less expensive design/product can simply outperform more expensive competitors... Is that what we have here?
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My thought is that our sound preferences are influenced by our listening habits and expectations.
I've noticed that when I go to live concerts...orchestras, bands...anything up on a stage, lots of instruments, spread out...it is hard to hear individuals playing, it is hard to hear much in the way of depth...I hear a blending of everything that ends up being music...and usually I like it.
If I'm listening in a smaller venue, 3 or 4 musicians...I may hear a lot more individual detail and more depth, but again there is a blending and usually I like it.
Now, when I sit down to listen at home, am I listening musically or analytically....if I'm having an analytical day, then I'm probably listening for things that are missing or are problematic...more than I'm listening to what sounds good.
Then assume I'm sitting down for some comparison listening between amplifiers....I'd say this is analytical listening and it may tell me instantaneous likes and dislikes but not whether I like the piece for its longer term musicality...that only comes by putting it in my system and living with it exclusively for a few months exclusively.
As to the Starkcrimson....Nelson Pass and Ralph Karsten both say that anecdotally, about 1/3 of people prefer some 2nd harmonic in their amplifiers, about 1/3 prefer 3rd harmonic and about 1/3 don't have a distortion preference. I believe Leo says he designs his amps to be as close to straight wire with gain as possible...so, they may not appeal as much to a person with a strong 2nd harmonic preference.
If a person has the space and the budget, I'm thinking that having multiple amps may not be a bad idea if they sound different from each other but both are enjoyable...much like cyclists may have multiple bikes and photographers may have multiple cameras.
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If a person has the space and the budget, I'm thinking that having multiple amps may not be a bad idea if they sound different from each other but both are enjoyable...much like cyclists may have multiple bikes and photographers may have multiple cameras.
This is exactly the path I've taken lately. It's also why I now own 8 amps with different topologies. It's fun to amp switch whenever I feel like it.
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RonN5 - absolutely agree. That's why I used the phrase "tube artifacts." I've always believed that we tend toward the distortion spectra most pleasing to us. Tyson's solution is certainly one way to scratch the itch. But with 5 pair of mono blocks already, if I came home with another pair, I think my femme would help me relocate to a new home. So, for me, that's out. But I do think you're onto something. Question is how could I so positively respond to a "straight wire with gain" when coming from decades of loving tube distortion? Maybe we're back to Mr. Big's thoughts that we just find change refreshing...at least for a moment. I also fully agree that months are required to ascertain the possibility for long-term enjoyment.
So, I'm back where I started. Bewildering enjoyment with these little toys and I guess I'll just take yes for answer. Great conversation with all of you. What a fabulous group to have to chat with. It's been so informative and thoughtful.
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Seems like we need a poll on this thread. How many amps does it take to cause Catluck to get a "relocation" package :lol:
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Hahahaha. Now that's funny !
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Mr. Big - don't disagree with your comments re: new sound might be "refreshing" and, at least for a moment, desired above other topologies. Strikes me as wise words. The interesting thing for me is that I've been a tube guy, mostly, for over 30 years. So, for instance, in the upstairs system, I'm all tubes (KT88, 300B, 6C33) and, as I've written, downstairs I run 845's. I love tube artifacts. But, listening to the Orchard Starkrimson monos upstairs, on the big Merlins (M3's are downstairs) a funny thing happened yesterday. I was listening to Kelly Joe Phelps "Slingshot Professionals," a great recording of great music. At first, the presentation struck me as somewhat disorganized and confusing. I kind of couldn't make sense of what was presented. But as I continued to listen, and I've listened to this recording many times, I realized that I was hearing information (harmonics off steel strings, deep background voices like organ, drum symbols, etc.) which I hadn't noticed previously. Tambourine zills had an astonishing pitch and location which I don't recall my tube gear presenting as clearly. After about 10 minutes I was able to "make sense" of the additional information and it was, I hate to use this word again but.... revelatory. I simply heard this music in a way that I had not previously heard it (or, at least, don't remember ever having heard it this way) and the experience was so pleasing.
Still, you could be right - perhaps I'll find this fatiguing and return to tubes. Too early to say. But, man, Kelly Joe sounded good. And one last thing: I know when I'm enjoying the sound of gear if I listen longer than I intended to or usually do. That's been happening everyday since I started with these GanFet products. Purely anecdotal I admit and, again, you could be right that I'll tire of the sound and return home to tubes. But I wonder...
I'm thinking perhaps, New Zoo nailed it when noting that, sometimes, a less expensive design/product can simply outperform more expensive competitors... Is that what we have here?
I use what music sounds like live, unamplified, or playing the piano. Live music throws a huge soundstage and pressure, with no pinpoint imaging which makes it sound like live music spreads out. Play that same track on your favorite tube system or better the same gear just switch out the amp's tube for class D, live the rest the same, and take the time to sit there and concentrate and focus as hard on the changes as you just did on the Class D amps the Orchard Starkrimson. Listen for changes like you would on a new piece of gear. You then will see what is what on how that track was reproduced by both types of amps.
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Live music throws a huge soundstage and pressure, with no pinpoint imaging which makes it sound like live music spreads out.
This omits the microphones from the equation. Microphones have pickup patterns that do not match the human ear. What the microphone hears is more directional, so pinpoint imaging and separation of instruments when playing back music on a loudspeaker typically indicates that the speaker is more accurately reproducing what the microphone recorded. This goes hand in hand with reproducing the subtle details in timing and frequency that allow the speaker to recreate the performance space.
the same gear just switch out the amp's tube for class D, live the rest the same, and take the time to sit there and concentrate and focus as hard on the changes as you just did on the Class D amps the Orchard Starkrimson.
Is that meant to be facetious? It doesn't sound like an experiment that is feasible.
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This omits the microphones from the equation. Microphones have pickup patterns that do not match the human ear. What the microphone hears is more directional, so pinpoint imaging and separation of instruments when playing back music on a loudspeaker indicate that the speaker is more accurately reproducing what the microphone recorded. This goes hand in hand with reproducing the subtle details in timing and frequency that allow the speaker to recreate the performance space.
Is that meant to be facetious? It doesn't sound like an experiment that is feasible.
Sure it is, same front end, listen with the Class D-amp, then put his Tube amp back in and see if he hears some of the same things he's not heard before. Take his tube to the system where the Class D amp is and use it there and listen as intently as we would with a new piece of gear.
My only point was we listen differently and with a different mindset and focus on the change when we make any change to our system. I have found when I change something I blank my mind out and just sit and listen generally like I always have done, the change is not that big, I also sometimes stand outside of the room and listen to the system's overall sound. Of course, a Tube amp will sound different than a Class D amp even a solid state would but is one really letting you hear things you never heard before, or is it that it's pushed the balance of the reproduction more forward, more midrange, or highs? Both would give you the perception of more going on but without that being in balance correct? That is the one thing power cords do, is push or pull back the presentation in areas of reproduction or make everything just sound flat lifeless so to speak or strong and forward, or fat and jucey and all will bring something out that you may not have noticed as much before.
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I see.
I read "switch out the amp's tube for class D" as physically removing a tube and somehow inserting a class D device into the tube amp. You meant "switch out the tube amp for a class D amp" it seems, which is very reasonable!
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Quote from: Mr. Big on 18 Sep 2022, 03:49 pm
1. Element 114 Stereo Power Amplifier (Cleanest)
2. PS Audio 1200 (most musical)
3. Jeff Rowland Model 625 ( Best of both above)
Enjoyed all, and kept my A/B.
Thanks. Those are some nice amps. The Element is $16,000. The PS Audio is $6,598. And the Model 625 S2 is $16,000 (judging from second-hand information online; the manufacturer's site posts no price). I expect that any of them would add some refinement, if not more, compared to my Pass Labs XA25.
What was is the class A/B amp that you preferred to the class D amps you tried?
Thanks. Those are some nice amps. The Element is $16,000. The PS Audio is $6,598. And the Model 625 S2 is $16,000 (judging from second-hand information online; the manufacturer's site posts no price). I expect that any of them would add some refinement, if not more, compared to my Pass Labs XA25.
What was is the class A/B amp that you preferred to the class D amps you tried?
I had the M1200. In my setup with Polk lsim 707 and Schitt Freya + it lacked emotion and engagement. i returned the units.
i so much wanted them to be special. But in the end it just did not seem to be what i was looking for.
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I see.
I read "switch out the amp's tube for class D" as physically removing a tube and somehow inserting a class D device into the tube amp. You meant "switch out the tube amp for a class D amp" it seems, which is very reasonable!
Yes! Take out the class D amp and the system and then put his Tube amp in its place.
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Mr. Big,
Your method is kind of what I followed. I've been engaged in this passionate pursuit for over 40 years, been to 20 shows, read hundreds of reviews, visited numerous retail outlets to listen (when they existed), etc., so I think (hope) that by now I know how to listen to kit (albeit I'm always looking to learn). However, we may differ on the methodology where you suggest, if I understand you correctly, that I switch class d kit for tubes and back/forth. That's simply not practical and, perhaps, not valid inasmuch as it cannot be done quickly, i.e., nearly instantaneously. Switching cables is no big deal but, at a minimum, you would have to wait for tube gear to warm up which means you're waiting minutes at least (in my situation). What I've done and reported here is to listen to tube gear, for over 35 years, and compare my aural memories of tunes I'm intimate with and compare to the class d presentations. Not scientific I admit. But I do listen "intently" and look for specific sonic attributes: soundstage, dynamics, bass, transparency, etc. So I think we're mostly in agreement.
After considering specific sonic attributes I'm trying to apprehend a holistic sense of the relative presentations. Most importantly, all of this in the context that, if my comments pique interest, you may engage a 15-day trial period. After comparing the Orchard Audio Starkrimon monos with the Class D Audio MiniGan 5's, I have decided to keep the Class D Audio monos. They continue to satisfy mightily. Mr. Big's comments re: class d having good bass and clarity but missing, perhaps, midrange presence were more evident, in my system to my ears, with the Orchard Audio Starkrimsons. Leo's products are beautifully executed and certainly deserve a listen. Orchard Audio offers a trial period as well but with a restocking fee. Ultimately, to my ears, the Class D Audio monos provide a noticeably more fleshed out midrange and a more dynamic and present bass without any discernable loss of their amazing detail/transparency in comparison the Starkrimsons (which also exhibit astonishing transparency and detail). Indeed, concerning the Starkrimsons, Leo graciously noted,
"No problem with the return. Many of my customers have this kind of feedback and opt to use a tube preamp to still have the prominent second harmonic..."
I did use a tube preamp but in my system the "leanness" (which Mr. Big has previously referenced) was not ameliorated which does not mean the Starkrimsons wouldn't be the more musical choice in your system. However, for the reasons noted, I am returning the Orchard Audio monos and keeping the Class D Audio monos. I'm also keeping my tube monos. But both upstairs and downstairs I'm listening to GanFets. No desire to change out. The tell. It's been a nice ride all.
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I saw this post by Leo over on SHF...for anyone who may be interested:
"I will be having a sale on October 2nd for Audiophile day. To get exclusive discounts, subscribe to the mailing list on my website https://orchardaudio.com/ "
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Sorry if I am repeating, I don't want to go through every post on these 6 pages, I've seen posts on using the mini Gan 5 on the M3 which has a passive woofer. Is there anyone using these on the X series 5 or 3? If so, what is your set up and how does it sound?
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miniGAN5 arrived this morning. FAST delivery from California. Hooked it up to the SPATIAL X3s. Superb! Dumbstruck! IMPOSSIBLE! Will ned to listen in depth for a while before I decide whether to trade the tubes for GaN. On standby for now!! Thanks for the encouragement. I think.............. :oops: :duh: :thumb:
well, about 4 days in and the X3s really like the miniGAM5 amp! Still deciding. Have not turned amp off since first turn on and it is just warm on top. The Beyma AMT tweeters are singing a wonderful tune now. ZERO harshness, only crystalline shimmering highs! The control on the mid driver is ironclad. The plate amps on the "woofer/sub" seem to like the signal too. So far; ZERO NEGATIVES. :violin: :drums: :guitar: :dance:
oh, and all the vocalists love it too!
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Thanks, newzooreview.
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Hey, guys! Since I posted on the miniGAN5 amp I need to report what my decision was. I stand with every raving statement I made about it! Switched back and forth with my SET amp several times. I feel quite sure that anyone listening to this BIG little amp, even with prior experience and other amps, would be impressed and in awe of the sound. I could not really fault it in any way musically. The background is inky silent and the headroom, with my 97dB speakers, is phenomenal. So? In the end, all things considered, I elected to keep my little 2.3watt SET amp and return the miniGAN5. The tube artifacts are just so pleasing to my ears and there are NO artifacts with the GaN amp. I have another matching amp in the order queue and will series wire them into matching monoblock amps with 6 watts each so more than doubling my power. I tried really hard to keep the GaN but, even though I would have come out a lot of money ahead, prefer the DECKWARE SE84UFO 25th Anniversary amp.
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Lazbisme - kudos to you for having the open-mindedness to give the MiniGans a try. 97dB speaks are rare animals indeed notwithstanding SA has, I think, 2 in the X series. Perhaps, not surprising that the tube "artifcacts" that you're enjoying are more apparent in such sensitive speaks. Indeed, only very sensitive speaks could ever provide sufficient volume on 2.3 watts, let alone any meaningful headroom. My thinking throughout has more been directed to MOSFET competitors rather than tubes and the M3's (still relatively sensitive at 92dB). Like you, I'm keeping my tube monos as well, as I noted in a previous post. Yet, curiously, I continue to listen to the MiniGans. No matter. In the end, what matters is that your system brings you musical fulfillment and it sounds like you're headed that way.
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Lazbisme - kudos to you for having the open-mindedness to give the MiniGans a try. 97dB speaks are rare animals indeed notwithstanding SA has, I think, 2 in the X series. Perhaps, not surprising that the tube "artifcacts" that you're enjoying are more apparent in such sensitive speaks. Indeed, only very sensitive speaks could ever provide sufficient volume on 2.3 watts, let alone any meaningful headroom. My thinking throughout has more been directed to MOSFET competitors rather than tubes and the M3's (still relatively sensitive at 92dB). Like you, I'm keeping my tube monos as well, as I noted in a previous post. Yet, curiously, I continue to listen to the MiniGans. No matter. In the end, what matters is that your system brings you musical fulfillment and it sounds like you're headed that way.
I wonder how big the difference is between the stereo amp(min Gan 5) and the pair of Gan 5 mono blocks? I assume a person will have to hear them side by side to be able to tell the difference?
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Hey, guys! Since I posted on the miniGAN5 amp I need to report what my decision was. I stand with every raving statement I made about it! Switched back and forth with my SET amp several times. I feel quite sure that anyone listening to this BIG little amp, even with prior experience and other amps, would be impressed and in awe of the sound. I could not really fault it in any way musically. The background is inky silent and the headroom, with my 97dB speakers, is phenomenal. So? In the end, all things considered, I elected to keep my little 2.3watt SET amp and return the miniGAN5. The tube artifacts are just so pleasing to my ears and there are NO artifacts with the GaN amp. I have another matching amp in the order queue and will series wire them into matching monoblock amps with 6 watts each so more than doubling my power. I tried really hard to keep the GaN but, even though I would have come out a lot of money ahead, prefer the DECKWARE SE84UFO 25th Anniversary amp.
Which pre amp were you using with them?
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Anyone using the Holo Audio Serene preamp with their Spatials? I have the Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC which is a beast in its price category and I decided to order the Holo Audio Serene KTE preamp the other day. I have the Luxman L509x integrated and it is very nice. As much as I like the Luxman, I realize I lost the flexibility to try different amps due to it being an integrated. I can use the Luxman amp as a separate, which I currently do as a HT bypass, but it only allows the separates option using the RCA inputs and I prefer using balanced connections for my 2-channel setup. So, now I can try different amps with the Holo Audio Serene in the chain; tubes, class A, A/B and the magnificent class D offerings that seem to be the talk of the town these days.
So, just curious what amps one might be using with their Holo Audio Serene preamp and Spatials?
Thanks
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So, just curious what amps one might be using with their Holo Audio Serene preamp and Spatials?
I have the Holo May KTE and Holo Serene KTE with my Spatial M3 Sapphires. I was using the Benchmark AHB2 amp and upgraded to the Pass Labs XA25. It is Class A, drawing 250 watts while it is on. It is rated at 25 watts but measures at 50 watts (according to Stereophile). The amp sounds terrific. Excellent tone, timbre, detail, soundstage depth and width, and textured bass. It is very clearly better than the less expensive AHB2 even though the AHB has "better measurements."
I've been following this thread because burning 250 watts all day long seems wasteful, and I wonder how a newer Class D amp might control the two 15" cones on the Sapphires while keeping (or improving on?) the Pass Labs sound.
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I suspect that what people like about the Pass is the 2nd order harmonics. So far at least, that doesn't seem to be available with any of the newer class d amps whether ganfet or purifi.
Ralph's amp (Atmasphere) by his statements is more along the lines of 3rd order. Leo's amp (Orchard) is more straight wire with gain. Both Nelson and Ralph have said that anecdotally, there seems to be equal preference for 2nd vs 3rd vs no preference...which means, no choice but to give the various well reviewed class d a try and see if any of them fit the bill.
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I do believe one of the Class D amps has the ability to use a tube buffer, which might give the best of both worlds.
Found it, here's the link to the VTV amp with tube input buffer:
https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-amplifier-stereo-purifi-audio-1et400a-amplifier-with-vtv-vacuum-tube-buffer/
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Here is a good one if you like tubes:
- Zero feedback, class A vacuum tube input stage
- Class D ICEedge (https://icepoweraudio.com/products/audio-ics/iceedge/) module
- 1200 watts into the most common loudspeaker loads of 4Ω
- 2Ω Stable
- XLR "TRUE" BALANCED INPUT
- Dual Mono
- 27 lbs. each
PS Audio M1200
https://www.psaudio.com/products/m1200-amplifier/ (https://www.psaudio.com/products/m1200-amplifier/)
(https://www.psaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/M1200_Silver_Stack_Front-500x500.png)
My review
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=176173.msg1856501#msg1856501 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=176173.msg1856501#msg1856501)
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I suspect that what people like about the Pass is the 2nd order harmonics.
Adding or emphasizing 2nd order harmonics is not a design objective of Pass Labs. Stereophile, for example, measured the XA25 and found that all harmonic distortion was very low (at about -105 dB if you look at the figure 7 referenced for midrange frequencies, for example). https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-xa25-power-amplifier-measurements
"Fortunately, the distortion in the midrange was predominantly the relatively innocuous third harmonic (figure 7), though at low frequencies the second harmonic was equal in level to the third (figure 8). But note the very low level of all distortion harmonics in this graph! Nelson Pass had warned me that measuring the XA25's intermodulation distortion with my usual twin-tone test signal would be problematic: "The bias circuit we are using interprets continuous high-power, high-frequency tones as a fault. If you want to do high-power, high-frequency IM test tones, you will need to do them quickly or you will get falsely high readings."
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Yes, I understand that Pass is not intentionally trying to add distortion… but class a by design often has 2nd or 3rd as dominant…if you’ve been following an of Ralph’s posts on Agon, even when distortion is really low, the most dominant influences the overall sound and anything above 3rd results in harshness.
The Pass distortion components explain why it isn’t exactly tube like… which is usually higher in 2nd and higher in distortion overall.
As for PS Audio… seems to have many positive forum comments. Note that stereophile said mostly 3rd at 8 ohms and 2nd at 4 ohms. Might be an interesting pairing with the Sapphires.
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I have the Holo May KTE and Holo Serene KTE with my Spatial M3 Sapphires. I was using the Benchmark AHB2 amp and upgraded to the Pass Labs XA25…..
…..I wonder how a newer Class D amp might control the two 15" cones on the Sapphires while keeping (or improving on?) the Pass Labs sound.
It sounds like the Serene preamp manages well in your chain so far. That’s good to hear! I had the PS Audio S300 amp and M700 mono blocks and sold them. My X5s were not broken in when I had these amps and the S300 was paired with KEF LS50, my second system. I wanted to try tubes and didn’t give the M700 a chance with the X5s.
Thanks
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I do believe one of the Class D amps has the ability to use a tube buffer, which might give the best of both worlds.
Found it, here's the link to the VTV amp with tube input buffer:
https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-amplifier-stereo-purifi-audio-1et400a-amplifier-with-vtv-vacuum-tube-buffer/
I spoke to Warren, (VTV Amplifiers), yesterday about his offerings. I didn’t entertain the tube input buffer model you mentioned because I’m leaning towards the Sparkos Labs SS2590 Pro OpAmp model if I decide to try the 30 day trial. I’ll inquire about it before I make a decision.
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I spoke to Warren, (VTV Amplifiers), yesterday about his offerings. I didn’t entertain the tube input buffer model you mentioned because I’m leaning towards the Sparkos Labs SS2590 Pro OpAmp model if I decide to try the 30 day trial. I’ll inquire about it before I make a decision.
Nice. I did as well! I have a Class D GAN en route and would like to try the VtV Dual Mono Purifi with several opamp options. They are super easy to roll and Warren will ship several and let me choose the one I like the best. Love that idea.
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Nice. I did as well! I have a Class D GAN en route and would like to try the VtV Dual Mono Purifi with several opamp options. They are super easy to roll and Warren will ship several and let me choose the one I like the best. Love that idea.
I'd be very interested in hearing your impressions of the differences between the various opamps. Please post.
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Nice. I did as well! I have a Class D GAN en route
Do you mean the Mini GaN 5 from Class D Audio?
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Yes I picked up one second hand and wanted to hear that all the fuss was about. I miss the Cherry Megaschino that I had and though I love the Don Sachs, there are times when I want more watts. So I'll compare a few and find the best fit unless this one is a home run.
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Nice. I did as well! I have a Class D GAN en route and would like to try the VtV Dual Mono Purifi with several opamp options. They are super easy to roll and Warren will ship several and let me choose the one I like the best. Love that idea.
That's my plan!
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I'd be very interested in hearing your impressions of the differences between the various opamps. Please post.
Absolutely. At this moment with my system I'd like something a bit more forewarn but not overly so. Warren suggested the Sonic Imagery Opamps. I believe the Weiss maybe too forward though but I'll take my time with this. With fall and winter approaching I'll have a lot of free time to do so.
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My VTV has the Sparkos SS2590 Pro and Apollon has the Weiss. The Weiss is definitely more transparent and revealing but I would not call it forward.
That said the Sonic Imagery options are right in the middle and I agree a good place to start. As we all know it is about synergy. My DAC is super smooth (no edge or glare) and the X4s are as well. So the Weiss is appreciated to reveal everything.
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I have a buddy with Spatials and the VTV/Sparkos....and while he says it sounds really good with a powerful low end and good balance top to bottom, it is somewhat 2 dimensional and therefore not in the same league as his Don Sachs amp when it comes to dimensionality and midrange saturation.
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Cant argue with anyones experience however it could be because the Don Sachs amp is making up for inadequate performance of another area of his system such as Source/ preamp.
In my system the VTV or Apollon have the soundstage floating around my room and more 3D than my dedicated HT room in multichannel audio.
DACs make a massive difference and I think many fault their amp meanwhile the DAC or preamp could be the culprit.
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Cant argue with anyones experience however it could be because the Don Sachs amp is making up for inadequate performance of another area of his system such as Source/ preamp.
In my system the VTV or Apollon have the soundstage floating around my room and more 3D than my dedicated HT room in multichannel audio.
DACs make a massive difference and I think many fault their amp meanwhile the DAC or preamp could be the culprit.
I’d love to hear your comparison of the Apollon vs the VTV.
And what’s your Dac and Pre?
My Don Sachs pre is super holographic and the centerpiece of my system.
Perhaps my Audio Mirror IV SE is super laid back.
In that case, just like you the Weiss Op Amp might actually be a good match. Regardless I’ll try several and take my time doing it. I find the best changes are only really meaningful after I listen to them for a few weeks to months.
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I have a buddy with Spatials and the VTV/Sparkos....and while he says it sounds really good with a powerful low end and good balance top to bottom, it is somewhat 2 dimensional and therefore not in the same league as his Don Sachs amp when it comes to dimensionality and midrange saturation.
I love my Don Sachs amp. If it had 300 Watts I’d stop looking. And now for the first time I’ve ever (slow learner !), I’m not looking for a replacement but an amp to Roll (thanks Tyson for that bank draining idea!).
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I love my Don Sachs amp. If it had 300 Watts I’d stop looking. And now for the first time I’ve ever (slow learner !), I’m not looking for a replacement but an amp to Roll (thanks Tyson for that bank draining idea!).
Careful, it's a slippery slope!! These are the different tube amps I have right now: Type 45 SET (2 watts), 2a3 SET (4 watts), 300b SET (7 watts), 6L6 SEP (10 watts), EL84 Push-Pull (12 watts), 6c33c SET (18 watts) and KT66 Push-Pull (40 watts). AND I just bought a 211/845 SET amp to replace my SS monoblock amps. Good lord, now that I write it out, its actually crazy. I am a crazy person :P
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I’d love to hear your comparison of the Apollon vs the VTV.
And what’s your Dac and Pre?
My VTV purifi sparkos pro stereo is from my 2nd system and I did a shoot out of that vs a Pass amp. In my system I preferred the VTV which gave me the confidence to go all in on the Apollon monos. Never compared the VTV to the Apollon directly because they live in separate systems. Also comparing a stereo purfi to Mono nc1200 modules with a different power supply and different op amp has many variables.
VTV is amazing and half the price of the Apollon monos. The Apollon amps that are a similar price as VTV use the same parts. The PNC series is different and much more expensive.
My DAC/ preamp is an MSB Reference direct to the amps
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Never compared the VTV to the Apollon directly because they live in separate systems. Also comparing a stereo purfi to Mono nc1200 modules with a different power supply and different op amp has many variables.
Similar. I have the VTV dual mono with Sparkos Pro opamps in my main system and the Mini GaN5 on the secondary system. Never bothered to compare those two. I don't even want to unplug the VTV! Mates well with the Don Sachs pre and Terminator II DAC. The pre and DAC provide the holographic sound, and the VTV reveals all of it. Unless morganc reports back to confirm the Weiss opamp is better, the VTV stays put as is.
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....Unless morganc reports back to confirm the Weiss opamp is better, the VTV stays put as is.
Maybe Warren would let you try out the Weiss OpAmps with your current mono blocks?
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Maybe Warren would let you try out the Weiss OpAmps with your current mono blocks?
Oh, that would be cool. I'll ask him...
UPDATE: I asked and got a quick response - he said I can always purchase the opamps and have 30 days to demo them. That seems fair. My reservation is the price -- the Weisss opamps are $338 per pair x 2 (1 pair per channel). Even if the Weiss opamps are a tad better, not sure if the improvement is worth $676.
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Careful, it's a slippery slope!! These are the different tube amps I have right now: Type 45 SET (2 watts), 2a3 SET (4 watts), 300b SET (7 watts), 6L6 SEP (10 watts), EL84 Push-Pull (12 watts), 6c33c SET (18 watts) and KT66 Push-Pull (40 watts). AND I just bought a 211/845 SET amp to replace my SS monoblock amps. Good lord, now that I write it out, its actually crazy. I am a crazy person :P
What are the 211/845 mono's that you acquired? Love 845's.
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I'm not a Spatial owner, but would love to check out the X-series one day. I am using Cube Nenuphar Mini's, which are great but not flawless. Anyway, I was reading this thread because I just spent 3 months using the LSA Voyager 350 ganfet amp. I usually run tubes, but during the summer they get too hot so I use something else. Since my speakers like amps with little or no negative feedback and I wanted something that ran cool I decided to try the LSA. I've tried Class D before and never loved it. Sounded ok and all the detail was there but just never felt engaged into the music. The LSA was the first class D I could live with and really enjoyed. I originally planned to sell the LSA after summer but I enjoyed it so much I'm thinking I might keep it for next summer. I just hooked my 845 tube amp back up and actually miss some of what the LSA brought. My system is Auralic G1 --> Holo Audio May KTE --> Holo Audio Serene KTE --> LSA or tube amp --> Cube Nenuphar Mini's + 2 Rel S/510s, all plugged into a PS Audio P12 regenerator. With the LSA there was amazing detail but also a crystal clear transparency. String plucks sounded like you were listening with a stethoscope and could hear every micro detail. Voices captured every nuance and inflection. It was almost hyper-detailed, but never harsh, dry or etched. When I plugged my LM518 845 amp back in yesterday I did lose some of that extra detail. With the LSA, piano sounded like you were in the piano. With the tube amp, you're at a concert in row 10. I do like the tubes however for the more liquid mid-range. There's an organic sound with tubes that just sounds right to me, but I love having this ganfet amp around in case I want to change the flavor or play with other speakers (I did use it for a month with some Usher BE718's and it sounded fantastic too). While the Nenuphar Mini's are not Sapphires, both are relatively efficient and I would highly recommend checking this amp out if you're looking for class D.
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Oh, that would be cool. I'll ask him...
UPDATE: I asked and got a quick response - he said I can always purchase the opamps and have 30 days to demo them. That seems fair. My reservation is the price -- the Weisss opamps are $338 per pair x 2 (1 pair per channel). Even if the Weiss opamps are a tad better, not sure if the improvement is worth $676.
Some spend several thousands on incremental upgrades with no trial period for returns. So, I agree that $676.00 may not be worth it, but it’s not bad compared to how expensive this hifi hobby can be!
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Some spend several thousands on incremental upgrades with no trial period for returns. So, I agree that $676.00 may not be worth it, but it’s not bad compared to how expensive this hifi hobby can be!
I get it. I've done it. The difference this time is if I had ordered the Zeiss opamps from the beginning, the additional cost would have only been $185. So I have a mental block about paying another $676 with zero resale value. In fact, it might be more cost-effective to sell my amp and re-buy it with Zeiss opamps.
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I get it. I've done it. The difference this time is if I had ordered the Zeiss opamps from the beginning, the additional cost would have only been $185. So I have a mental block about paying another $676 with zero resale value. In fact, it might be more cost-effective to sell my amp and re-buy it with Zeiss opamps.
Given your scenario, I understand. Lol... You'd probably lose money because you won't get full value for the resale. However, if the Weiss OpAmps don't outperform your current module, RETURN with the quickness!
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What are the 211/845 mono's that you acquired? Love 845's.
A Japanese company called SunValley.
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I'm not a Spatial owner, but would love to check out the X-series one day. I am using Cube Nenuphar Mini's, which are great but not flawless. Anyway, I was reading this thread because I just spent 3 months using the LSA Voyager 350 ganfet amp. I usually run tubes, but during the summer they get too hot so I use something else. Since my speakers like amps with little or no negative feedback and I wanted something that ran cool I decided to try the LSA. I've tried Class D before and never loved it. Sounded ok and all the detail was there but just never felt engaged into the music. The LSA was the first class D I could live with and really enjoyed. I originally planned to sell the LSA after summer but I enjoyed it so much I'm thinking I might keep it for next summer. I just hooked my 845 tube amp back up and actually miss some of what the LSA brought. My system is Auralic G1 --> Holo Audio May KTE --> Holo Audio Serene KTE --> LSA or tube amp --> Cube Nenuphar Mini's + 2 Rel S/510s, all plugged into a PS Audio P12 regenerator. With the LSA there was amazing detail but also a crystal clear transparency. String plucks sounded like you were listening with a stethoscope and could hear every micro detail. Voices captured every nuance and inflection. It was almost hyper-detailed, but never harsh, dry or etched. When I plugged my LM518 845 amp back in yesterday I did lose some of that extra detail. With the LSA, piano sounded like you were in the piano. With the tube amp, you're at a concert in row 10. I do like the tubes however for the more liquid mid-range. There's an organic sound with tubes that just sounds right to me, but I love having this ganfet amp around in case I want to change the flavor or play with other speakers (I did use it for a month with some Usher BE718's and it sounded fantastic too). While the Nenuphar Mini's are not Sapphires, both are relatively efficient and I would highly recommend checking this amp out if you're looking for class D.
I just read about the LSA Voyager GaN 350 on the Underwood Hifi website. Thanks for adding to the list of class D contenders.
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I love my Don Sachs amp. If it had 300 Watts I’d stop looking. And now for the first time I’ve ever (slow learner !), I’m not looking for a replacement but an amp to Roll (thanks Tyson for that bank draining idea!).
Serious question. Do you really feel you need 300 watts with your Don Sachs? I guess it’s a silly question, as you wouldn’t have said it if you didn’t mean it. I’m curious because I just purchased a Valhalla (to drive my X5s), which is 30 watts or thereabouts, to replace my SS Classe, which is 300 watts, and not only do I not miss the extra power, quite literally everything about the Valhalla is an improvement on the Classe, which is a good amp. So I’m curious what speakers you have and how you feel the extra wattage would benefit you. I’m sure the extra power of the Classe was somewhat wasted on the X5s due to the active sub, and, conversely, the Valhalla benefits greatly by having to drive only the mids and tweeters. Are your speakers lower sensitivity and impedance than the X5s, or would having a Don Sachs amp with 300 watts just be the best of both worlds and allow for any speaker possibility in the future? I’m probably answering my own question. I apologize if you’ve gone through all this before. Thanks.
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Serious question. Do you really feel you need 300 watts with your Don Sachs? I guess it’s a silly question, as you wouldn’t have said it if you didn’t mean it. I’m curious because I just purchased a Valhalla (to drive my X5s), which is 30 watts or thereabouts, to replace my SS Classe, which is 300 watts, and not only do I not miss the extra power, quite literally everything about the Valhalla is an improvement on the Classe, which is a good amp. So I’m curious what speakers you have and how you feel the extra wattage would benefit you. I’m sure the extra power of the Classe was somewhat wasted on the X5s due to the active sub, and, conversely, the Valhalla benefits greatly by having to drive only the mids and tweeters. Are your speakers lower sensitivity and impedance than the X5s, or would having a Don Sachs amp with 300 watts just be the best of both worlds and allow for any speaker possibility in the future? I’m probably answering my own question. I apologize if you’ve gone through all this before. Thanks.
Great Q! For the most part I post only based on my experience. I’ve had and miss the 400 Watt Cherry Megaschino paired with my X-3,s. I have an open floor plan and no dedicated room. I listen while working in my office, in the kitchen, etc and it’s likely 1000-1300 sf of open space. And when I like to crank it, I like to crank it !
I’ve had much smaller spaces in the past with similar speakers and 10-20 watts was plenty.
And also I have varied genre taste. For jazz and vocalists the Don Sachs is all I need. For Rock, electronica, R and B, etc I often am not sitting and instead am up and about and again just like to feel the space.
Before I bought my first Class D, I thought I’d never need such wattage. Now it’s just a fun luxury to play around with. It is also nice when you crank a really nice System with high watts to have such low distortion with clean bass.
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I'm not a Spatial owner, but would love to check out the X-series one day. I am using Cube Nenuphar Mini's, which are great but not flawless. Anyway, I was reading this thread because I just spent 3 months using the LSA Voyager 350 ganfet amp. I usually run tubes, but during the summer they get too hot so I use something else. Since my speakers like amps with little or no negative feedback and I wanted something that ran cool I decided to try the LSA. I've tried Class D before and never loved it. Sounded ok and all the detail was there but just never felt engaged into the music. The LSA was the first class D I could live with and really enjoyed. I originally planned to sell the LSA after summer but I enjoyed it so much I'm thinking I might keep it for next summer. I just hooked my 845 tube amp back up and actually miss some of what the LSA brought. My system is Auralic G1 --> Holo Audio May KTE --> Holo Audio Serene KTE --> LSA or tube amp --> Cube Nenuphar Mini's + 2 Rel S/510s, all plugged into a PS Audio P12 regenerator. With the LSA there was amazing detail but also a crystal clear transparency. String plucks sounded like you were listening with a stethoscope and could hear every micro detail. Voices captured every nuance and inflection. It was almost hyper-detailed, but never harsh, dry or etched. When I plugged my LM518 845 amp back in yesterday I did lose some of that extra detail. With the LSA, piano sounded like you were in the piano. With the tube amp, you're at a concert in row 10. I do like the tubes however for the more liquid mid-range. There's an organic sound with tubes that just sounds right to me, but I love having this ganfet amp around in case I want to change the flavor or play with other speakers (I did use it for a month with some Usher BE718's and it sounded fantastic too). While the Nenuphar Mini's are not Sapphires, both are relatively efficient and I would highly recommend checking this amp out if you're looking for class D.
I just saw their offerings this weekend as well. Thanks for sharing. I love 845 as well.
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A Japanese company called SunValley.
Nice! I’ve been admiring the Sun Valley amp as well. You’re gathering quite the collection !
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I get it. I've done it. The difference this time is if I had ordered the Zeiss opamps from the beginning, the additional cost would have only been $185. So I have a mental block about paying another $676 with zero resale value. In fact, it might be more cost-effective to sell my amp and re-buy it with Zeiss opamps.
Wait, what? Why the huge difference if installed originally? Perhaps I’ll see if I can negotiate a few options before I pull the trigger on mine or perhaps we could ask him if he’s be willing to do an Opamp tour for our forum.
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Similar. I have the VTV dual mono with Sparkos Pro opamps in my main system and the Mini GaN5 on the secondary system. Never bothered to compare those two. I don't even want to unplug the VTV! Mates well with the Don Sachs pre and Terminator II DAC. The pre and DAC provide the holographic sound, and the VTV reveals all of it. Unless morganc reports back to confirm the Weiss opamp is better, the VTV stays put as is.
I’ll let you know but it might be a while. This maybe my winter audio fun project !
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Wait, what? Why the huge difference if installed originally? Perhaps I’ll see if I can negotiate a few options before I pull the trigger on mine or perhaps we could ask him if he’s be willing to do an Opamp tour for our forum.
I don't see a lower cost for VTV op amps at purchase vs. adding them later.
For the monoblocks here are how the costs come up for one monoblock (list below). So at time of purchase, Weiss Op Amps for two channels cost $776. Buying a set of Weiss Op Amps to use after you already purchase the Monoblocks is 2 x 338 = $676.
I would be willing to bet that there is a typo on the monoblock order page (or on the purchase page to buy the op amps separately). 338 and 388 look identical at a quick glance. One of them is likely a typo for the other. But at the moment buying the Weiss opamps after the fact is actually the cheaper route, according to the VTV website.
$- No opamp
$78.00 Class D opamp
$78.00 Sparkos Labs SS3602
$119.00 Sparkos Labs SS2590 Pro Opamp
$132.00 PR Sonic Imagery Labs 995FET Pro Opamp
$132.00 PR Sonic Imagery Labs 990EnH-Ticha Pro Opamp
$88.00 Sonic Imagery Labs 994EnH-Ticha Pro Opamp
$388.00 PR Weiss OP2-BA Opamp
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[duplicate post deleted]
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Great Q! For the most part I post only based on my experience. I’ve had and miss the 400 Watt Cherry Megaschino paired with my X-3,s. I have an open floor plan and no dedicated room. I listen while working in my office, in the kitchen, etc and it’s likely 1000-1300 sf of open space. And when I like to crank it, I like to crank it !
I’ve had much smaller spaces in the past with similar speakers and 10-20 watts was plenty.
And also I have varied genre taste. For jazz and vocalists the Don Sachs is all I need. For Rock, electronica, R and B, etc I often am not sitting and instead am up and about and again just like to feel the space.
Before I bought my first Class D, I thought I’d never need such wattage. Now it’s just a fun luxury to play around with. It is also nice when you crank a really nice System with high watts to have such low distortion with clean bass.
That all makes a lot of sense. I hadn’t considered how the amp, and the speakers, might perform relative to the size of the room. My own room isn’t small, but it isn’t terribly big, either. Open plan living room and kitchen, about 15w x 30l x 9h. Math refugee that I am, I shudder at the thought of figuring out the cubic feet of that. I occasionally play some whomping bass stuff, but mostly it’s classical and jazz. Symphonic music and opera can get pretty big at times, and at those times I do sometimes like to share the music with my neighbors (who, amazingly, have never complained - good walls, I guess), and the Valhalla has yet to come up short, but I’m sure my comparatively small room has a lot to do with that. Do they make good, or any, tube amps with the kind of power you’re looking for? Anyway, thanks for the response.
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Open plan living room and kitchen, about 15w x 30l x 9h. Math refugee that I am, I shudder at the thought of figuring out the cubic feet of that.
You would multiply those three numbers and you'd get 4,050 cubic feet.
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You would multiply those three numbers and you'd get 4,050 cubic feet.
Ha! Once again, saved from having to do it myself.
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That all makes a lot of sense. I hadn’t considered how the amp, and the speakers, might perform relative to the size of the room. My own room isn’t small, but it isn’t terribly big, either. Open plan living room and kitchen, about 15w x 30l x 9h. Math refugee that I am, I shudder at the thought of figuring out the cubic feet of that. I occasionally play some whomping bass stuff, but mostly it’s classical and jazz. Symphonic music and opera can get pretty big at times, and at those times I do sometimes like to share the music with my neighbors (who, amazingly, have never complained - good walls, I guess), and the Valhalla has yet to come up short, but I’m sure my comparatively small room has a lot to do with that. Do they make good, or any, tube amps with the kind of power you’re looking for? Anyway, thanks for the response.
None that I know of.
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Do they make good, or any, tube amps with the kind of power you’re looking for?
a tube amp with 150wpc+ would be a behemoth boat anchor, run hot as hell, cost a fortune to re-tube and be besides the point. tube amps are about a burnished, glowing sound, not about massive power outputs. they dont really compete with ss amps - each has their own pros and cons. imho anyway.
PS i love tube amps and the new ss (gan fet, ncore, purifi etc) amps.
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Musicdre - words of wisdom. And, your list doesn't include the often troubling spitting, hissing, etc., of one tube just not wanting to play nice with the other tubes in the sandbox. And, not that it's a sonic issue but the ridiculous inefficiency of tube amps is bothersome to me. But, more importantly, as I've noted, GanFets now seem to be closing the gap to glorious, "burnished" tube sound such that it becomes ever more difficult to justify the wastefulness associated with tube gear and this coming from a dyed-in-the-wool tube guy for at least the last 30 years. Consider this quote from Michal Jurewicz (head engineer at, and founder of, Mytek) when discussing the need for faster Mosfets,
"...but it's not yet 100% what could be accomplished. For a better squarewave you need power transistors called GaN-Fets. It's a game changer for class D. In the next few years we will see examples of class D proving to be the best sounding amplifier technology with the use GaN-Fets..." (Stereophile, May, 2021, Vol.44, No.5)
Far as I'm concerned, we're already there. Note the descriptors used by those on this thread who actually tried a GanFet product albeit not mono's and maybe not XLR. Using monos and XLR to take best advantage of the kit may not provide the pleasurable distortion spectra of tubes but, well, the little 5 lb.., 300 watt, MiniGans continue to sit atop the 100 lb., 845 mono space heaters, figuratively and literally, which have remained silent since I started listening to the MiniGans.
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Far as I'm concerned, we're already there. Note the descriptors used by those on this thread who actually tried a GanFet product albeit not mono's and maybe not XLR.
I received a pair of Mini Gan 5 monoblocks from Class D Audio on Monday. They are in the system now, breaking in.
After some e-mail with Class D Audio, they offered to install WBT speaker posts (WBT-0708Cu) that I purchased and had shipped directly to them.
As they were building out the amps, they received a batch of updated boards. The production sticker on the bottom of the amp indicates they are version 5.3. Class D suggested in e-mail that the improvements were small gains in sound quality and in power for the monoblocks. I would not know what "small gain" means or whether one would notice in an A/B comparison.
The MG5-monos (picking a term to avoid confusion with generic GaN amp discussions) had the LEDs dimmed by Class D at my request. They are still too bright for evening listening. If I keep them, I will put some removable black circles (e.g., computer camera blocking vinyl stickers) over the power buttons. I can't fathom why blazing blue LEDs are put in equipment that will be used in low light settings, but it's not a problem unique to the MG5-monos.
They are solidly built with formed steel cases. Unfortunately the cases are ferromagnetic. This seem like an even more dubious choice than the LEDs. At least with the WBT binding posts there is nothing ferromagnetic directly in the signal path. I can't inspect the interior due to the "voids warranty" sticker over one of the case screws, but the copper wire should be directly soldered to the copper binding post that is well insulated from chasis.
They get just a bit warm. One is sitting on 1.5" risers above the other and neither of them is very warm. The chasis is well ventilated, but they don't seem to generate much heat anyway, as expected.
The jumpers came set at the medium gain level. I left them there since low gain is only 2 dB less. I might move them to low gain if I keep them, since the M3 Sapphires do not need much gain from the amp.
I have them connected via Anticables Level 5.2 XLRs to the Holo Serene KTE preamp.
Hopefully this will give me an idea of the optimal sound available from Class D Audio at the moment. Once I have 200 hours on the MG5-monos I should be able to share realistic impressions. I measured the dB of my Pass Labs XA-25 with a couple of test tones and dialed in the MG5-monos to the same +/- 0.5 dB levels, so I will be able to compare apples to apples.
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Looking forward to your impressions, NewZoo, even if not a “review.”
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NewZoo - looking forward, like others, to your thoughts on sound quality. I also just ordered another pair of upgraded monos. As you noted, Tom indicated that the distortion specs, already claimed to be .006% were not much impacted but that available power is increased. Tom wrote,
"The difference with the new monoblocks is in the case of your amp, we use one beefed up channel from the Mini 5 amp, and the new version we're actually are using two channels paralleled. What this means is more power and a little cleaner. You will most likely notice the power, but your current amps are already at .006% THD_N so no noticeable difference there.... Everything will probably sound a little better believe it or not! maybe it's just me, but I seem to be hearing little micro details I never heard before... could just be my imagination, but they sure sound great!"
We'll see. For certain I continue to hear details on cd's I'm intimate with on the M3's, having had them for about 19 months, that I didn't hear prior to the MiniGans (and using XLR/monos identical to the current set-up). Should be receiving the new upgrades tomorrow. If they do sound better I'll ship my current pair back to Tom for upgrade as well. Again, looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
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OOPS! another monkey wrench tossed into the decision making process!! Definitely looking forward to comments on the "new" GAN5 monos".
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Looking forward to your impressions, NewZoo, even if not a “review.”
New Zoo Revue was a weird children's show back in the 70s. Two hippies and a life-sized frog, owl, and hippo (more hippies in costumes, I think). They had events and interactions and sang songs. When I was a kid sick with a fever on the couch at home on a school day it all made sense.
When signing up for AudioCircle a long time ago I randomly decided to use that as a forum name. But I botched the spelling. Then people thought I was some kind of audio reviewer. So it goes.
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And the rest, as they say, is history. As father to a four year old, I really enjoyed hearing the backstory. Sounds like a pretty fun show.
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NewZoo - Tom wrote the following and asked that I post it so here goes,
"Please mention on the thread that it's not recommended to leave the amps on all the time as they actually run a little warmer when just idling. These amps don't require really long break in times like some other equipment. Also, just so they know, since the upgrade we have to raise the prices of these to $1535.00 for the pair and will do so Saturday as these just cost more to make. These are already the best value in audio today and by a far margin. We'll also be listing single mono amps."
Like the M3's, these amps, IMO, sit at the inflection point where better performance costs multiples of their purchase price. And that doesn't mean that you'll necessarily find any speaker or amp that does everything better than either the M3 or the MiniGans. But we breathlessly await New Zoo's comments.
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Real interested to hear your impressions on the GaN5, newzooreview, especially how they compare to the XA25.
I'm new to this forum, so I can't search yet. But, I'm curious if any Spatial Audio owners have paired SA speakers with some FirstWatt gear, like the SIT-3.
I'm looking at the X4's as my next speaker purchase (and one which would hopefully last me for a very long time,) and I fell in love with the sound and value of these high-end DIY builds. Especially those using the rare and legendary VFETs (designed specifically for audio.)
When I was in school, I actually worked in a nanotech lab where we "grew" GaN transistors, amongst other things like photovoltaics. Pretty neat stuff.
I may end up grabbing one of these GaN amps to use in summer months and/or when I want to use the speakers but don't want the Class A sound/heat.
I agree with Mr.Big earlier on in this thread. It is indeed nice to have the ability to swap amps based on mood. Keeps things fresh (and prevents the gear treadmill.)
Can't wait to read some more X4 reviews too.
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Just saw this… who is going to take the plunge?
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649902973-atma-sphere-class-d-monoblocks-like-new/
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Just saw this… who is going to take the plunge?
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649902973-atma-sphere-class-d-monoblocks-like-new/
This is impressive. I'd love to hear how they sound.
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Good price… they are getting favorable reviews on Agon.
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Orchard Audio offers a trial period as well but with a restocking fee.
Thank you for giving my amps a try.
Please note this "restocking fee" only applies when you make a purchase using PayPal. This is because Paypal does not refund credit card fees when I issue refunds.
If you make a purchase using the other payment methods there are no fees, you are only responsible for return shipping.
This is outlined in my return policy here:
https://orchardaudio.com/refund_return_policy/
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Well, I said I wasn't gonna do it, but I tried anyway and failed....
I attempted to compare the Mini GaN5 to my VTV Purifi amp in my main system, but the ultra-cheap binding posts on the GaN5 had holes too small to accept banana plugs (actually the male side of the tube connectors). I can tolerate them on a secondary system, but if the GaN5 was on my main system, I'd rip out those binding posts.
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but if the GaN5 was on my main system, I'd rip out those binding posts.
Yeah, the only reason I decided to try Mini GaN5 monoblocks was that they offered to install WBT binding posts if I sent them a set. Their stock e-bay binding posts with output wire soldered to foil-thin metal bits made out of who-knows-what are a terrible choice.
The intense, piercing blue LEDs, even when "dimmed" are also a bad choice. It's in a frequency range near UV that makes it very distracting. The amp needs a dim and off toggle switch for those.
I think it is admirable to keep costs to a minimum. Maybe a "Plus" version could be offered for folks who don't mind paying a bit more for decent binding posts, an LED dimming/off switch, a gain selector switch instead of bare jumpers dangling out of the back, output wiring of known quality and composition, and casework that is not ferromagnetic. The XLR connector seems to be hard-wired to the board, so using at least a good quality neutrik there vs. the current e-bay part (at least by appearances) would have to wait until the next batch of boards is made. The RCA connectors are also super cheapies.
I also wonder about the statement that the amps should be turned off when not in use because they are less efficient when idling. So far the Mini GaN 5's have been running 85% of the time, so I haven't left them on idle for more than an hour or two. But they get only mildly warm. My XA-25 gets almost too hot to touch. The XA-25 draws 250 watts at idle and is biased to be just barely tolerable when putting your hands on the heat sink.
With the Mini GaN 5 getting just barely warm, what is it that is at risk if it is sitting idle? This risk is not mentioned in the manual, so asking someone to forward a comment about it to one audio forum also seems bizarre. If this is an issue, then the manual should be updated and an e-mail sent to existing customers. An explanation of the actual risk would also be helpful.
So far, there is definitely break in happening. It's at 75 hours. I understand that the capacitors are smaller in GaN amps, due to the needs of to circuit, but I'm still thinking that a basic 200 hour break-in will be a fair starting point for drawing conclusions. It won't hurt to be safe, I think.
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All good thoughts, Newzoorevue. I’ve been considering buying one to try in place of my Odyssey Kismet stereo amp that’s on my TV system, but the comment about needing to turn it off when not listening has given me pause. The reason the odyssey works so well for my TV purposes is that I never have to turn it off and it’s ready to go whenever spouse or child want to use the TV. If they had to turn it on and off on their own, There would be no end to the grief and troubleshooting requests I’d get when things didn’t work right. Klaus is emphatic to leave it on 24/7 if possible, so it’s a good fit on that front. I thought with Class D, leaving on 24/7 would be even less of an issue, given the cool running and lower power consumption. Guess not.
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I think it is admirable to keep costs to a minimum. Maybe a "Plus" version could be offered for folks who don't mind paying a bit more for decent binding posts, an LED dimming/off switch, a gain selector switch instead of bare jumpers dangling out of the back, output wiring of known quality and composition, and casework that is not ferromagnetic. The XLR connector seems to be hard-wired to the board, so using at least a good quality neutrik there vs. the current e-bay part (at least by appearances) would have to wait until the next batch of boards is made. The RCA connectors are also super cheapies.
Wow. That "Plus" version you described would easily double the price and it would only yield a nominal sound quality improvement. Probably not a good business model, although I'd be willing to pay $10 more bucks for better binding posts.
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All good thoughts, Newzoorevue. I’ve been considering buying one to try in place of my Odyssey Kismet stereo amp that’s on my TV system, but the comment about needing to turn it off when not listening has given me pause. ... I thought with Class D, leaving on 24/7 would be even less of an issue, given the cool running and lower power consumption. Guess not.
Don't let that discourage you. Sounds like BS, but I'd suggest speaking to the seller to get more details on the risks of leaving it on.
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Wow. That "Plus" version you described would easily double the price and it would only yield a nominal sound quality improvement. Probably not a good business model, although I'd be willing to pay $10 more bucks for better binding posts.
The set of 4 WBT posts cost $175.90 with shipping. However, there may be a better $10 no-name alternative for the binding posts they are currently using. I just decided to get something that matched the posts on my M3 Sapphires.
A lot of audio companies offer a "special edition" of their equipment for folks who would like it. It seems to be a successful business model, in fact. The "special edition" is often about 30-50% more expensive, targeting the most beneficial upgrades for that sort of additional cost.
I think the updates I was listing were as much about usage/operation as about sound quality. I have no idea whether the binding posts are improving the sound compared to the stock ones because I don't have both options to compare.
In any event, break-in continues and the sound quality will be what matters.
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Interesting conversation. Reminds me of a Stereophile op-ed piece some years ago concerning audiophiles - some are "levelers" and some are "sharpeners" (to the best of my recollection). Some of you may recall - essentially, if memory serves, some audiophiles find various aspects, properties, qualities, etc., significant and attention-worthy while levelers tend not to concern themselves to the same degree. Regarding the 24/7 on status, Tom Rost responded,
"Leaving these and other amplifiers in all the time just causes wear on power supply capacitors... just like any other amp. These amps come up to stable temps very fast... not like tube gear or older types of amps that have to be on for long periods to stabilize. There is a reason most amps have 12 volt triggers so the amps are only running when in use."
I have confirmed that the amps come "on" very quickly, i.e., within moments they seem to achieve sonic stability.
Regarding the speaker binding posts, unlike a previous posting, if I understood it correctly, I've had no difficulty whatsoever inserting bananas. I have changed out speaker binding posts in the past but these posts, from Eastern Europe, seemed structurally unsound. The posts on the MiniGans appear sufficiently robust even if one uses spades. I know because I tried spades and was able to achieve a very tight fit. Tom indicates the posts are gold plated so while they might not meet the manufacturing standard of WBT they appear wholly sufficient to the task. Does installing more expensive posts have any impact on sound quality? That's a more difficult contention to sustain in this case.
The comments on the ferromagnetic casement are interesting. I'm wondering what is the potential impact of a ferromagnetic casement without even considering the degree of ferromagnetism, etc. Is there any literature suggesting that, when using a GanFet circuit topology, ferromagnetic casement negatively affects the amp's performance? Some internet denizens have noted,
"electronics create EM fields around them and magnets usually interfere with that. Interfering with your audio equipment could only cause feedback or distortion in the best case..." (I note here that Tom indicates TD is less than .006% so distortion ought not be an issue.)
Others have noted, regarding magnets in close proximity to audio circuits,
"I've been an electronic tech over 45 years. The advice given is well intentioned but there's there's in that preamp that can be damaged by magnet in a simple amp circuit like that. Look at all the radios, TV's Combo amps, Studio monitors with huge speaker magnets inside them. Its not something that influences the parts in an amplifier." (Certainly, the sound quality of the MiniGans suggests that whatever the ferromagnetic "interference" may be present, it doesn't seem to manifest in any audible way. Perhaps it's total absence would be audible... Unknown.)
In all, I wonder at the legitimacy of the concerns voiced about the Class D Audio amps. Having been in this pursuit for over 40 years, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. But, as NewZoo concludes, it should be the sound quality that matters most. Now using the upgraded MiniGans and I find them, again, amazing. Too early for me to say whether they are more musical than their immediate ancestor but, regardless, they sound extraordinary. Listening to Johnny Griffen, XRCD, The Kerry Dancers, and the right M3 has transformed into a sax - it's no longer a speaker.
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The Mini GaN5 is phenomenal at its price point -- no debate there. And its build quality is consistent with the price point. Can it sound a whole lot better with higher quality parts -- of course it can! But let's face it -- most of us bought it because it was relatively inexpensive. As consumers, we do it all the time -- buy a less expensive product and then complain that it doesn't have premium parts and features.
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Early B - I respectfully disagree with your claim that with more expensive parts "of course it can" sound better. I have far more expensive amps and the MiniGan outperforms them musically. FULL STOP. I didn't buy the MiniGans because they were "cheap" or less expensive. I bought them solely to try them out and, as it turns out, they simply out-perform my expensive tube amps. Likewise, the SS amps I've used on the M3's (Sim Audio Moon, Pass Aleph 0 monos and Levinson). If I didn't think their sound was superior I would have returned them to Class D Audio. I have no interest in owing amps whose sound qualities I find less than wholly compelling. I don't care that they might be less expensive. Reminds me of the saying, "if the first watt sounds like shit why follow it with 199 more?" Price had no influence on my choice whatsoever. Either these amps were sonically compelling, as Tom promised, or they weren't. If not, I don't want them. Claims that more expensive parts, beyond a level of sufficiency in parts choice, make for better sound must be proven not simply asserted. Obviously, the MiniGans parts choice is sufficient. And, again, I say that with respect and humility. I've just witnessed too many meritless claims in audio over the last 40 years. BTW, the Orchard Audio Starkrimsons, which I just auditioned, have very high quality speaker binding posts and, I suppose, a non-ferromagnetic casement (I think binding posts are WBT). I returned them and kept the MiniGans. FWIW
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:D interesting thread indeed. My big old Pass 250 is giving my trouble. The 100 pound beast isn't happy when cold till about 5 hours of warming. This 5 pound amp is that good ? Will they drive a pair of ProAc D48's ?
Would mono's be better for tough loads ? Class D sure is kicking up some dust for sure. 🎶🎶🎶🎶👍
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2Bigears - contact the GanFet manufacturer of your choice and ask about your speaks. For certain, Tom Rost at Class D Audio and Leo Ayzhenstat (sp?) at Orchard Audio will prove very accommodating and responsive. They have 15 day trial periods so you've got little to lose. You may find, like me, GanFet (not MOSFET class D) based circuits are the new kid on the block and for good reason. AGD and Atma-Sphere also do GanFet but their offerings are vastly more expensive, lower powered, and no trial period that I'm aware of.
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Early B - I respectfully disagree with your claim that with more expensive parts "of course it can" sound better.
I was simply saying that you can take virtually any product and make it better with better parts.
You've made it quite clear that you love these amps. In fact, your enthusiasm is the reason I bought mine, but I grabbed it mainly for the price. The reason for the purchase doesn't matter -- I'm keeping it because it sounds better than what I had, same as you.
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Great conversation guys. I’m stoked to have one landing here Monday. I still have some speaker positioning and bass management work to do and am gonna get all that done to see what all the fuss is about. Got any favorite songs that really come to life with the Spatial/Gan combo?
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Morganc - what are your favored musical genres? I can only contribute jazz titles. But there are many here who know classical, rock, etc. Make your preference known and you'll be rewarded.
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I love jazz, vocalists, rock, Indie and much more. From Billie Eilish to Melody Gardot to Victor Wooten to Radiohead to David Grisman.
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I was simply saying that you can take virtually any product and make it better with better parts.
You've made it quite clear that you love these amps. Your enthusiasm is the reason I bought mine, but I grabbed it mainly for the price. The reason for the purchase doesn't matter -- I'm keeping it because it sounds better than what I had, same as you.
The use of better parts does not mean better sonics. I worked for Sony, so any design and components used in that design are based on the circuit and voiced with the parts used in that design. You add say a part that passes high frequency better say like a dale metal film and you replace all the cheaper ones with these, well you will hear a lot more highs and you just destroyed to the audio balance of the unit because the circuit was not designed with the metal films in mind. This goes for crossovers in speakers the parts chosen are chosen to work with the type of drivers used and voicing start messing with the crossover and you change the house sound of the speakers as designed, now you may like it more for your taste or then you might not. Yes, you can change the sound by swapping parts in and out, but the best parts ever made still depends on how the designer chooses to use them in their designs and where they choose to use them. I heard mods turn good units into sounding like a receiver with the treble turned up, the guy who modded said oh, well I took out the bass hump, how many times I've heard that in my 40 years. No, what you did was throw off the balance as designed in the unit. The circuit was not designed for the "better" expensive parts and their different impact on that circuit design. I don't like the sound of something I don't keep it or I will sell it but never toss the dice and have someone mod it because that is like buying a new piece of gear, no different, you really have no way of knowing if you will like what the modder likes. I trust Sony, Nelson Pass etc knows more than a guy who does mods as a business and I am sure they have good intentions.
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The use of better parts does not mean better sonics.
If you know what you're doing, better parts mean better sonics. Many manufacturers design and sell premium versions for this reason.
A few days ago, I upgraded the caps in my crossovers. Do my speakers sound better? Of course they do! This upgrade had nothing to do with the design or the designer. Voicing is nearly always based on a price point, so designers select the "best" components from a limited budget. I'm not suggesting that ALL upgrades produce better sonics, but one's personal experience dictates what will likely result in a significant improvement.
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Removing crap from the signal path and using better quality parts almost always gives me better sound.
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The Mini GaN 5 monoblocks (with WBT binding posts) hit 150 hours of break-in this morning, and the sound opened up and relaxed a bit more. Although further improvements may come, I think there is plenty to comment on at this point.
In brief, the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks are better in every respect than the Pass Labs XA-25, and I plan to happily keep them.
Room and equipment: The room is 18’ x 14’ and I sit 8’ from the M3 Sapphires which are 8’ apart and 3’ from the wall behind them. Roon ROCK NUC --> Anticables USB --> Holo May KTE DAC --> Anticables XLR --> Holo Serene KTE Pre-amp --> Anticables XLR --> Mini GaN 5 Monoblocks --> Anticables Level 4.2 Flex speaker cables --> Spatial M3 Sapphires.
Break-in: Turning the amps off for at least 30 minutes twice per day seemed to help break-in noticeably. I’ve seen amp manufacturers comment that letting the capacitors charge, run, and discharge helps them settle in. It seems to be the case with these amps as well. In the first 80 hours, the sound was vivid and revealing, but after 80 hours it became more cohesive, and each day after the 80-hour mark the sound has opened up and relaxed more without losing the exceptional resolution and tone. I don’t know that break-in is completely done, but it is on par so far with other amps I’ve had. With highly resolving speakers like the Sapphires, the changes are substantive during break-in.
[N.B. All listening was done with the dB matched using two reference tones and a stand-alone dB meter. This resulted in turning down the pre-amp from -28 to -39 going from the XA-25 to the Mini GaN 5s. After early break-in at the medium gain setting, I adjusted the Mini GaN 5s to the low gain setting, which is only 2 dB less than the medium setting. There seems to be no reason to use more gain than the lowest setting with the M3 Sapphires.]
Sound: The Mini GaN 5 monoblocks seem to be the best amps that I have heard in any system that I have owned, but I can only legitimately compare them to the Pass Labs XA-25 and, indirectly, to the Benchmark AHB2 that the Pass Labs XA-25 replaced. The XA-25 provided more detail and bass extension and texture/resolution than the AHB2. The XA-25 was, to put a meaningless number to it, 40% better than the AHB2. The Mini GaN 5 monoblocks are 80% better than the XA-25: the step up from the XA-25 to the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks is twice as significant as the very clear step up from the AHB2 to the XA-25.
Across the board, the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks are exceptionally resolving: a clear and natural portrayal of details in every track I played, without any hint of tipped up treble creating just an illusion of detail. The sound is not at all fatiguing, and the instruments have realistic body and timbre. The ability of the amp to keep track of every detail in the recordings leads to benefits in the range of things that make music alive and palpable: timbre, soundstage depth and width, harmonics and transients, bass heft and texture, and musicality.
Compared to the XA-25, bass with the Mini GaN 5’s is more textured, controlled, slightly deeper, and realistic. In listening to jazz, for example, there were several instances where I heard for the first time the musician bending the strings on the upright bass to shift the note. It’s a revelation to hear those kinds of subtleties that bring you closer to the live performance. This happened repeatedly. I could track deep bass from beginning to end in songs where it had previously seemed to be there only in one or two passages. And in recordings with a lot of well-recorded bass, like the American Beauty soundtrack, the Mini GaN 5’s provided better tone and more texture than the XA-25. It was not even close.
In the midrange the Mini GaN 5’s provided the subtlety of detail that makes vocals palpable and real, and, depending on the recording, intimate. In comparison, the XA-25 has a bit of sheen in the vocal range that tends to mask the finest subtleties and make some vocals a bit dusted in grit—a very fine grit, definitely, but when it is gone the absence is quite noticeable. The ability of the Mini GaN 5’s to reveal details in the recording gives instruments a very real and natural timbre and conveys the three-dimensional sense of the instrument having a shape and body better than the XA-25.
The Mini GaN 5’s certainly have nothing to do with thin, dry, or clinical sound. The Mini GaN 5’s add no brightness to the upper midrange, and they improve on the XA-25s in playing recordings that may have some inherent brightness. By cleaning up the subtle hash or grunge in the sound, the brightness in some recordings becomes more musical and less offensive.
In the treble the Mini GaN 5’s resolve things that are a bit confused and fuzzed by comparison in the XA-25. On one jazz recording, the sound that I had always assumed was a bit of hiss on the analogue tape turned out to be the drummer brushing on a snare off to his right. This sort of revelation was commonplace as I listened to hours of music that I was familiar with. Never once was the treble harsh or fatiguing, and, like the bass and midrange, I found surprises in new details in track after track.
The soundstage and imaging are both exceptional. The Mini GaN 5s are able to reproduce the fine spatial cues that allow the Sapphires to define a deep and wide soundstage when it is in the recording. The Sapphires disappear easily, and instruments extend back several feet and beyond the left/right edges of the speakers. The image is very stable, and the focus allowed me to see a musician, like a saxophone player, moving on stage. He was not just playing 3 feet deep and 2 feet in from the left speaker—he was moving side to side a couple of feet during his solo. Compared to the XA-25, the soundstage and imaging from the Mini GaN 5s simply opened up a new level of natural realism.
The exceptional, natural resolution of the Mini Gan 5’s allows the communication between musicians to come through more clearly. Being able to hear the string section in an orchestra have a call and response with the woodwinds buried deeply in the recording is the kind of thing that makes the Mini GaN 5’s such a revelation. The technical promise of higher switching speed in a GaN FET does not appear to be just something for electrical engineers to appreciate on a spec sheet or the test bench. It’s not just an issue of reducing the size of the device or significantly improving efficiency or lowering costs. GaN FETs, or at least this implementation of them, do seem to open up new horizons for reproducing real, palpable music still hiding in recordings, even those from more than half a century ago.
I don’t know how much more one would have to spend to get a better amp than the Mini GaN 5 monblocks. Perhaps the AHB2 and the XA-25 were not optimal matches to the Sapphires, and there are other Class A or Class A/B amps in the $3-5k price range that are on par with the Mini GaN 5’s. It seems unlikely, however.
I think the limiting factor at this point could be the M3 Sapphires. The AMT mid/tweeter and faster bass/sub drivers in the X series could possibly allow even more of the music from the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks to come through. The M3 Sapphires sound glorious with them, however, so it’s not a serious concern at this point.
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:D hummmm, so you like them ? One question though. Do you need to go mono, or is one just as good ? I just might bite on these little gems. My 100 pound Pass is old and needs a day to warm up. And it's dedicated power plant. :D
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Do you need to go mono, or is one just as good ?
I have no idea. I only tried to monoblocks, and only with the WBT binding posts. I can't say whether the stock Mini GaN 5 would be appreciably less capable. I would expect that the lion's share of what I like would still be there.
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:D WBT posts ? Ya list me. Is this an option or did you mod them ? :D
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:D WBT posts ? Ya list me. Is this an option or did you mod them ? :D
In e-mail with Class D Audio, they offered to install WBT binding posts if I sent them. It's not an option when ordering on their website. I just go in touch with them via the e-mail on their site and asked a few questions and expressed concern about the stock binding posts. My sense was they don't share those concerns but they didn't mind accommodating them.
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:D ok. 730.01 part # .... they are about 300 bucks. Connectivity is big with watt transfer. Wondering now ? Looking into a price for the monos with the good posts. Sell the big 100 pound beast. :D
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I got the WBT-0708Cu Nextgen Economy Binding Posts. It looked to be the same copper as the more expensive versions from WBT with a smaller knob. I just wanted to be sure that they didn't have trouble fitting the big knob version. However, I have no idea if that would have been a concern.
These were $41 each plus shipping from Madisound.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245309)
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Also, if you do go this route, you might double check that you order two red and two black binding posts.
The back panel of the amp is clearly labeled "L" and "R" so it's not a big issue if you get four black binding posts like I did, but it's nice to have them color coded so possible errors in connecting things are minimized.
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:D hummmm, so you like them ? One question though. Do you need to go mono, or is one just as good ? I just might bite on these little gems. My 100 pound Pass is old and needs a day to warm up. And it's dedicated power plant. :D
what speakers are you driving? I have a single here on my Spatial X-5's and it drives them with ease but most amps can do that with these speakers.
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:D ProAc D48's . And also M3's .... have both and will A-B these when I get these amps.... :D
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One will give you plenty but with two you'll have no doubt.
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NewZoo - beyond happy that you're enjoying the MiniGans. I find your comments spot-on with my experience. I've inserted a tube pre-amp in the system, and I think I'm done (at least for awhile if not for good..). I literally find myself, when going to bed at night, thinking about what I'm going to listen to the next a.m. Everything sounds "fresh" and just plain better. I'm really starting to notice a more easily discerned bass voice in the background (for that software where bass is not prominent). But put on Brian Bromberg, Wood, and it's just ridiculous how good it is. Anyway, you fostered the spirit of science in your willingness to try GanFets so kudos to you. Again, thanks for your thoughtful comments.
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what is everyone using for preamp with the amp?
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Three questions:
First is about the build/soldering/grounding and safety....has anyone opened them up that knows anything about this and what did you find?
Second, If something happens to the company, who can fix them if there is a problem?
Third, it looks like the resale depreciation is about 40%...does this seem reasonable for a new product?
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Three questions:
First is about the build/soldering/grounding and safety....has anyone opened them up that knows anything about this and what did you find?
Second, If something happens to the company, who can fix them if there is problem?
Third, it looks like the resale depreciation is about 40%...does this seem reasonable for a new product?
Good questions.
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Off-brands do not hold value at times, and you know that when you buy them, you accept that at purchase. Plus they sell at really affordable prices.
In fact, most audio loses value quickly as soon as the new and greatest comes out.
Products might sound great but if they are little known well that impacts value, and due to Class D many small unheard business resources to DIY make for many small unheard businesses selling them now. Buy McIntosh it holds value even after 10-20 years because it is a known name, known quality and they last forever and still be repaired by McIntosh after 20-30 years or more! But many Class D are cheap in cost and offer lots of power. So a good combination for the buyer but you just accept they will not hold value and may be hard to sell but you may enjoy their sound and care little about value in the resale market. Fair or not Class D has a stigma. :nono:
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what is everyone using for preamp with the amp?
My system is Aurender N100—>Audio Mirror IV SE Dac —> Don Sachs Pre via RCA —> Amp —> Spatial X-3’s.
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First is about the build/soldering/grounding and safety....has anyone opened them up that knows anything about this and what did you find?
I haven't seen any comment about flimsy or unsafe build quality. Photos of the inside posted elsewhere show an unremarkable and reasonably tidy interior with just a few solder points for internal wiring that nobody has raised concerns about. ASR tripped internal protections in the third-hand amp they tested, so even a possibly damaged amp was failing safely. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/mini-gan-5-inside-jpg.125295/
Second, If something happens to the company, who can fix them if there is a problem?
This is certainly a concern with any small and/or startup company. When I bought one of the first MicroZOTL amps from Linear Tube Audio, a capacitor failed in the first two weeks. That seems to be a common point of failure for solid-state amps, and a cap could probably be replaced by any number of people. However, a failure in the unique power supply used or in the amp circuit board seems like it could require knowledge from the original designer.
I exchanged e-mail with Class D audio and checked their mailing address on Google Street View before ordering, but in considering your question I decided to lookup their business registration in California. The California Franchise Tax Board (FTB) appears to have suspended their registration in May 2021 because they did not file their annual Statement of Information (SI) due in September 2020. The record I looked up was for Class D Audio LLC, which lists the same the 1149 Pomona Rd, Suite F address that the amps shipped from.
It's hard to draw a conclusion from that. It sounds like a small business run by engineers not taking care of paperwork. If it indicated trouble for the enterprise, it seems as if they would have folded over the last 18 months. Alternatively they could have registered under a new name with different leadership and I pulled their prior registration. It's not confidence-building information, though.
Third, it looks like the resale depreciation is about 40%...does this seem reasonable for a new product?
I was prepared to ship the amps back within the evaluation period if they were not obviously better. I expected they would be not quite as good or just ambiguously different from my XA-25, in which case I would have returned them. Resale value was not a serious consideration in that context--I wasn't going to keep them if they weren't something I would like to have around for the long term.
If the price were not modest in the context of hi-fi equipment, however, I would not have risked it.
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I will say that it always frosts me when a company doesn't put its address and phone number on their web page....maybe no one else cares but it just makes me feel like "what are you hiding or afraid of".
At any rate, people seem to be happy with them and in the end, that is what matters.
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Interesting what gets folks upset. No address on the website? If you have an issue it's no more difficult than contacting the vendor and asking. How exercised is one going to get about that? As far as established reputation and repair issues, I can say that in purchasing many pieces that have failed, from "reputable" manufacturers, I have often been disappointed in the customer service which really amounted to little more than a significant repair bill and not much more. Yes, at least the maker may still be in business and that is certainly an issue but I've suffered through too many "reputable" makers (whose marques I won't mention) whose business practices were less than laudatory. But, as Tom Rost has noted, and I've reported in this thread, Class D Audio has been around for about 14 years (and still here after C-19). So I'm not much concerned.
In fact, I just asked Tom do so some specialty work on a second set of monos I just ordered and he didn't charge me a dime. His email opened with "no problem..." Opening up the MiniGans to check soldering, etc., is verbotten because they have a seal, like many retail pieces, which if broken apparently voids the warranty. That's pretty common so it shouldn't be a surprise that few, if any, have opened their unit(s). One can check with Tom about that if concerned.
Some here may recall that I checked with the secretary of state, as noted in an earlier posting on this thread and I noted the issue NewZoo refers to. For me, being a practicing business law attorney for over 35 years now, it's a non-issue. The failure of small companies to comply with business filings in a timely fashion is about as common as crabgrass in California. Not worth comment or concern IMO and particularly given how folks in this very thread have noted timely delivery upon ordering and fabulous listening results. In the end, it's about confidence in the product and manufacturer and both are a crapshoot until one has personal experience allowing an informed opinion. But I note that nobody has yet provided any derogatory information concerning the quality of Class D Audio products or a failure to stand behind same. Ultimately, a simple email conversation, well, several actually, with Tom Rost laid my concerns to rest. So much ado about so little and which could be resolved with such minimal effort. Either you come away trusting Tom and willing to try his product FOR THE COST OF SHIPPING (knowing you may listen for 15 days and return with no questions asked) or you don't. Perspective, use it or lose it.
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I forgot to mention resale value. What a joke in high-end audio. Yeah, there are legacy pieces which will hold value, very few actually when considering the market. But most of us know that the depreciation curve of audio kit mimics the trajectory of a hammer thrown from an aircraft. That's virtually industry/product wide. You walk out of a stereo store (I know, I'm dating myself... what's a "stereo store?") and kit depreciates 25-40% before you exhale. Resale value??? Really? Isn't that why so many of us buy used? Let someone else eat the depreciation. It doesn't take too many instances of buying new and then reselling to figure it out. But, when we're talking about $1,500 monoblocks how much depreciation will one suffer - can one suffer? At 50% you've lost a whopping $750. Hardly worth discussing. Actually, not worth discussing.
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I forgot to mention resale value. What a joke in high-end audio. Yeah, there are legacy pieces which will hold value, very few actually when considering the market. But most of us know that the depreciation curve of audio kit mimics the trajectory of a hammer thrown from an aircraft. That's virtually industry/product wide. You walk out of a stereo store (I know, I'm dating myself... what's a "stereo store?") and kit depreciates 25-40% before you exhale. Resale value??? Really? Isn't that why so many of us buy used? Let someone else eat the depreciation. It doesn't take too many instances of buying new and then reselling to figure it out. But, when we're talking about $1,500 monoblocks how much depreciation will one suffer - can one suffer? At 50% you've lost a whopping $750. Hardly worth discussing. Actually, not worth discussing.
You make some good points. But if any product is perceived highly then it holds its value, I sold my 16 year older MC402 for 60% of what it cost new back in 2006. This johnny come lately class D companies that are popping up left and right and for a good reason, many can get the class D circuits premade and open the market. Cannot compare that to Nelson Pass and others who have to design their products from the ground up, not even close pre-sale cost-wise.
But all of that has nothing to do if a class D sounds good for small and for the most part unknown companies. And most audio companies do state their addresses phone numbers and other important information. Cherry products have been around for a good while with contact info, PS Audio has been around for a while and makes class D amps, Jeff Rowland also, and a few others, but you have to pay more and there is a reason they are made better with much more costly to manufacture and build them. There is no free lunch and built over-the-top casing and such does not mean always better sound, but much more status and status has got zip for assuring good sound and I have owned them for over 40 years, some are well worth the money, others not so.
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MR. Big,
I hear you. You mention some of my fave's (particularly Pass whose products I've owned and loved). But I'll tell you this: after holding the Class D Audio, and again this is not a fly-by-night enterprise unless you consider 14 years fly-by-night and/or that Tom Rost is being untruthful when asserting he's been designing/selling amps for that long, it's solid kit that inspires nothing but confidence. When you turn the units on, no spitting, popping, clicking, nothing but dead silence. And, as noted in the threads herein, extraordinary sound. Moreover, I fear that many consider the overbuilt audio jewelry to be the norm. I've come to respect the audio engineer who's able to resist the tendency to pander by building large and heavy when neither are required nor honoring "form follows function." And I get that aesthetics is wholly meaningful. I just don't discount makers who can't/won't engage that paradigm. Some of my all-time favorite amps were built by a gentleman, George Wright, now passed away. George once built me a pair of 2A3 amps and the casement and transformers actually showed external signs of rust. Really garage-built looking shit. But their sound? Their reliability? Their soul? Glorious and unimpeachable. Just like George - one of the kindest men I ever met. Likewise, Doyman Planov, in Prague who built my custom Hartung OTL's which are utterly remarkable and the antithesis of the audio jewelry so common today. George and Domen and Don Hoglund (Granite Audio) are small time makers of gear that has something most of the McAudio makers do not - soul, sauce, juice. Perhaps I've been lucky in that my gear has proven so reliable - indeed every bit as reliable as the big boys and, in fact, more so. I won't tell you how many times I had to return my PS Audio transports with their $18 ASUS drive. And, at $200/pop to send back to CO, wait several weeks waiting, shipping to and fro....After the first time I took the damn transport apart myself, saw the shitty cheap ASUS drive and bought 6 off Amazon. Ended up replacing them 4x's over the next 2 years. And, be clear, I respect PS Audio and hope they continue to do well. Good people working hard to build good products. Similar stories for other big boy makers. The point is that thinking the "big boys" do better quality or design because they're the big boys has proven, for me, to be utterly fallacious. In fact, I've actually represented several makers whom I won't/can't identify and I know the financial pressures associated with commercial audio. Maybe if more folks saw the "sausage" being made they might not invest so much confidence in the big boy paradigm. FWIW
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I haven't seen any comment about flimsy or unsafe build quality. Photos of the inside posted elsewhere show an unremarkable and reasonably tidy interior with just a few solder points for internal wiring that nobody has raised concerns about. ASR tripped internal protections in the third-hand amp they tested, so even a possibly damaged amp was failing safely. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/mini-gan-5-inside-jpg.125295/
This is certainly a concern with any small and/or startup company. When I bought one of the first MicroZOTL amps from Linear Tube Audio, a capacitor failed in the first two weeks. That seems to be a common point of failure for solid-state amps, and a cap could probably be replaced by any number of people. However, a failure in the unique power supply used or in the amp circuit board seems like it could require knowledge from the original designer.
I exchanged e-mail with Class D audio and checked their mailing address on Google Street View before ordering, but in considering your question I decided to lookup their business registration in California. The California Franchise Tax Board (FTB) appears to have suspended their registration in May 2021 because they did not file their annual Statement of Information (SI) due in September 2020. The record I looked up was for Class D Audio LLC, which lists the same the 1149 Pomona Rd, Suite F address that the amps shipped from.
It's hard to draw a conclusion from that. It sounds like a small business run by engineers not taking care of paperwork. If it indicated trouble for the enterprise, it seems as if they would have folded over the last 18 months. Alternatively they could have registered under a new name with different leadership and I pulled their prior registration. It's not confidence-building information, though.
I was prepared to ship the amps back within the evaluation period if they were not obviously better. I expected they would be not quite as good or just ambiguously different from my XA-25, in which case I would have returned them. Resale value was not a serious consideration in that context--I wasn't going to keep them if they weren't something I would like to have around for the long term.
If the price were not modest in the context of hi-fi equipment, however, I would not have risked it.
I've been checking out the website and the price is very reasonable and I'm thinking of trying one out. They have a decent return policy
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sparked by the conversation in this thread, i picked up a Gold Note PA-10 GaN Fet amp. running it in stereo on my M3s. it sounds great. as good as any solid-state (or tube) amp ive tried - and about equal with the class D Nord One NCore. The Nord presents the stage wider and more open. The GoldNote has slightly better bass and perhaps a bit more "coherence" (tho the flipside of that coherence is it that it could be termed a slight "congestion" by a listener that values spaciousness over it). both amps put forth amazing clarity and dynamics, are quiet and run cool. both the Nord and the GoldNote really shine with the M3s - and are relative bargains by amp price standards.
for now i am keeping them both. AND looking to try a Purifi amp too.
color me impressed.
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This johnny come lately class D companies that our popping up left and right and for a good reason they can get the class D circuits premade and open market. Cannot compare that to Nelson Pass and others who have to design their products from the ground up,…
One of things that interested me about the Class D Audio Mini GaN 5 was that they designed their own amp and power supply. They have their own boards made. They are not buying pre-made modules from someone else.
In fact, I'm not sure that there is an off-the-shelf GaN FET class D module like there is with the Purifi, Hypex, or ICE MOSFET Class D.
Is that correct? Orchard, Class D Audio, Audion, and Atmasphere use their own designs. Are the Peachtree and LSA GaN FET amps using a pre-made amp module?
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NewZoo
I see your observations as spot-on re: certain GanFet products rely on uniquely designed boards and power supply implementation and, to my knowledge, you've identified some of the unique brands. One might suppose that the GanFet makers are, of course, new because, well, GanFets are new. Audio applications are only a few years old.
Also to suggest that Pass and certain other current MOSFET designers have designed their products from "the ground up," is, I think, overstatement. Not to denigrate their brilliance, but the basics of amplifier design have been well known since the 50's (or earlier). Pass, like all other current designers, stands on the shoulders of many previous designers (Hafler, Marantz, Corderman as examples) and I suspect that Pass would readily admit this fact. Indeed, if anything is "ground up", it seems more likely that the new GanFet circuits, capable of exploitation in ways not seen in MOSFET designs, are better examples.
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Musicdre,
The Gold Note is a beautiful piece but it's not really a GanFet amp. It uses MOSFETS in the output stage and features GanFets only in its output oscillator. That it runs cool might be because it appears to have a built-in fan! See "https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/thoughts-on-this-gold-note-pa-10-power-amplifier.24984/" Myself, I've never been a fan of built-in .... GanFet output stages don't have, don't need, built-in fans. They don't even, or barely, have heat sinks! So this design is not really exploiting GanFets in the way that Orchard Audio, Class D Audio, Atma-Sphere, etc., do (and not that you claimed it does). But if the most compelling aspects of the new GanFet technology are its relative simplicity, light weight, low cost, low heat dissipation, small package, and extraordinary sound quality, it seems GanFet output stages are required. Nonetheless, as has been said too many times here, if you enjoy the sound...
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One of things that interested me about the Class D Audio Mini GaN 5 was that they designed their own amp and power supply. They have their own boards made. They are not buying pre-made modules from someone else.
In fact, I'm not sure that there is an off-the-shelf GaN FET class D module like there is with the Purifi, Hypex, or ICE MOSFET Class D.
Is that correct? Orchard, Class D Audio, Audion, and Atmasphere use their own designs. Are the Peachtree and LSA GaN FET amps using a pre-made amp module?
Correct at the moment, but I believe that Orchard is actually selling their internals as a module - the downstream products have just not hit market yet.
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The Mini GaN5 is phenomenal at its price point -- no debate there. As consumers, we do it all the time -- buy a less expensive product and then complain that it doesn't have premium parts and features.
Ballanced 10/10!
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The Mini GaN 5 monoblocks (with WBT binding posts) hit 150 hours of break-in this morning, and the sound opened up and relaxed a bit more. Although further improvements may come, I think there is plenty to comment on at this point.
In brief, the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks are better in every respect than the Pass Labs XA-25, and I plan to happily keep them.
The exceptional, natural resolution of the Mini Gan 5’s allows the communication between musicians to come through more clearly. Being able to hear the string section in an orchestra have a call and response with the woodwinds buried deeply in the recording is the kind of thing that makes the Mini GaN 5’s such a revelation. The technical promise of higher switching speed in a GaN FET does not appear to be just something for electrical engineers to appreciate on a spec sheet or the test bench. It’s not just an issue of reducing the size of the device or significantly improving efficiency or lowering costs. GaN FETs, or at least this implementation of them, do seem to open up new horizons for reproducing real, palpable music still hiding in recordings, even those from more than half a century ago.
I don’t know how much more one would have to spend to get a better amp than the Mini GaN 5 monblocks. Perhaps the AHB2 and the XA-25 were not optimal matches to the Sapphires, and there are other Class A or Class A/B amps in the $3-5k price range that are on par with the Mini GaN 5’s. It seems unlikely, however.
Thank you for a very detailed evaluation as always. Very Pro of you. I recalled somewhere in the past you mentioned the LTA 40 + being in the same ball park as the x25. This has me very excited since i am waiting for my Set of Gan 5 to land. Now just to get them through customs. The Gan 5 mono's will pair with the M4's due to room size.
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Far, far better to support a small company with good cred making a brilliant product than supporting an image of greatness in my mind. Eventually all warranties run out. Better to own a product that seems to be relatively easy to fix. If they make things from the ground up themselves then to a large extent chances is a qualified HIFI tec will suffice.
Then again i could not care for image as long as the product delivers. Almost all equipment fail sooner or later. Often less is better. The less components the less can fail I think. Less heat? Less electronics to cook.
Besides maybe the hifi tecs can chip in; What is more likely to get fixed? Solid state, Tube amps or Class D in general? Depends on many factors i suppose.
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I recalled somewhere in the past you mentioned the LTA 40 + being in the same ball park as the x25.
To clarify, I listened to the LTA 40+ integrated with a Lampizator Amber (?) DAC and the M3 Sapphires at Linear Tube Audio. I did not have the LTA 40+ in my system at home. They were in the same ball park in the sense that I did not feel the need to try the LTA 40+ at home after I had the XA25. Someone directly comparing them in the same system would likely favor one or the other.
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MR. Big,
I hear you. You mention some of my fave (particularly Pass whose products I've owned and loved). But I'll tell you this: after holding the Class D Audio, and again this is not a fly-by-night enterprise unless you consider 14 years fly-by-night and/or that Tom Rost is being untruthful when asserting he's been designing/selling amps for that long, it's a solid kit that inspires nothing but confidence. When you turn the units on, no spitting, popping, or clicking, nothing but dead silence. And, as noted in the threads herein, extraordinary sound. Moreover, I fear that many consider the overbuilt audio jewelry to be the norm. I've come to respect the audio engineer who's able to resist the tendency to pander by building large and heavy when neither are required nor honoring "form follows function." And I get that aesthetics is wholly meaningful. I just don't discount makers who can't/wodon't engage that paradigm. Some of my all-time favorite amps were built by a gentleman, George Wright, now passed away. George once built me a pair of 2A3 amps and the casement and transformers showed external signs of rust. Garage-built looking shit. But their sound? Their reliability? Their soul? Glorious and unimpeachable. Just like George - one of the kindest men I ever met. Likewise, Doyman Planov, in Prague built my custom Hartung OTL which are utterly remarkable and the antithesis of the audio jewelry so common today. George and Domen and Don Hoglund (Granite Audio) are small-time makers of gear that has something most of the McAudio makers do not - soul, sauce, juice. Perhaps I've been lucky in that my gear has proven so reliable - indeed every bit as reliable as the big boys and, in fact, more so. I won't tell you how many times I had to return my PS Audio transports with their $18 ASUS drive. And, at $200/pop to send back to CO, wait several weeks waiting, shipping to and fro...After the first time,, I took the damn transport apart myself, saw the shitty cheap ASUS drive, and bought 6 off Amazon. Ended up replacing them 4x's over the next 2 years. And, be clear, I respect PS Audio and hope they continue to do well. Good people work hard to build good products. Similar stories for other big boy makers. The point is that thinking the "big boys" do better quality or design because they're the big boys has proven, for me, to be utterly fallacious. I've represented several makers whom I won't/cacan't identify and I know the financial pressures associated with commercial audio. Maybe if more folks saw the "sausage" being made they might not invest so much confidence in the big-boy paradigm. FWIW
Well said and I appreciate your views. I do know from working for Sony, how much design and parts went into their high-quality ES lines back in my time with them. Look inside of an SCD1 SACD CD player, it was a work of art in all facets, It looked like a piece of medical equipment, the layout, how noise was lowered, the drive, and on and on, plus the quality of the work and layout. I saw inside of other units by small high-end companies, that were crap compared to the SCD1 and charged 3-4 times more, so I understand having an audiophile name brand does not mean quality. PS Audio's new SACD transport uses the Marantz SA-10 transport, so that is a solid transport, their 1st one looks like OEM crap to me, and I knew it was not that good long term.
Esoteric nowadays builds as Sony, Luxman also, and a few others, their designs are just beautiful, along with fantastic power supplies, and that is where the rubber meets the road on any unit is the power supply, it makes or breaks any unit, and having built some tube gear back in the day I can tell you that as I beef up the power supplies even in the preamp the better it sounded, which is why some gear weighs so much, my old Esoteric k-01 weighed in at 70lbs if I recalled, you say hell its a CD player can't weigh that much, well look at the design, not one large transformer but 4, transport, and on and on, was it worth 20K? I say yes when I have seen others selling at 10K with OME parts and Phillip pro drives and cheap power supplies but hidden with a knock-out outer casing. I know also that a small designer can build good products Doug Sachs is well known, Dave Belles gear is very musical.
My tube preamp sounded better than my Audio Research one did, but it was basic in looks, but my power supply was a lot better and my design had fewer parts in it but did mine have resale value even though it sounded great, nope, but ARC did which I see selling today at over $3,000 because its the SP3A vintage 1970's with a myth built around it, while in fact, its sound was so, so, In fact, I looked at the design and took out some of the unneeded parts and it sound night and day better, in fact, ARC was doing that also later when they offered updates, I beat them to the punch on that. But I could not give mine away, so I gave it to a friend who used it for the next 20 years! So I know that being small does not mean you cannot build good-sounding gear, but I also know this hobby, and most never keep their gear and are always looking for the next big thing/upgrade and that is why I feel for myself I buy gear that holds value, so when I sell it I can get some of my money back to buy another replacement product.
As I aged and learned I fully accept now that when it is a product is real, real good then change becomes for change sake to get a different sound and this is what these new class D amps offer from reading all the positive posts. But I also read many who have tried them and while they liked them said what they missed was color, tone, overtones decay, and body and weight to the music compared to there class A/B units, though those units did not sound as clean and fast, so it like tube vs. SS, each is very good in their own way, as CD is to vinyl.
I like the future of Class D and at my age I would love he light weight of those amps, in fact I sold my McIntosh amp not for sound improvements but due to the 110lb weight, so I am down now to only 75lb amp which was much more manageable for me at 71. I never would look at 100 lb plus amps today as I did in my past 40 years in this hobby. God my Mark Levinson 333.5 I think weighed in at 150lbs, and I could mage that when needed. Those days are long gone...smile! Class D might be my final act...smile!
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Mr. Big,
Of all the really big boys SONY is probably the brand I most respect. I owned the XA-7, XA-54 (I think these are correct model #'s) and I loved them. CD players both and they sounded so warm, detailed and were absolutely reliable in all respects. Sony's first SACD player, as you correctly note, IMO, was a work of art. Takes me back.... Yeah, as I've also noted, I'm through with 100 lb. amps as well. If there's a disconnect between our views re: Class D (but ONLY as it concerns GanFets NOT MOSFETS), it's that the gulf between tubes and GanFets re: midrange flesh, juice, soul, has, IMO, been reduced so convincingly as to allow GanFets to take the lead sonically (they're just quieter - and that's without considering their other enormous advantages in weight, cost, heat, materials consumption, etc.) And, remember, I'm a TUBE GUY for over 35 years (300B, KT88, 6550, 2A3, 6C33, 845). I've still got 5 pair of tube monoblocks. But as I'm sitting here listening to Keith Jarrett, Radiance, the leading edge, decay, rich timbre, and tonal density of piano notes, all seemingly perfect (or, at least wholly satisfying) leave me wanting nothing in comparison to tubes. NO THING. Symbols, jazz guitar, stand-up bass, everything sounds better to me with GanFets than with tubes. It's not a "different" thing as you suspect- it's a greater realism thing. A more alive thing. A far more satisfying thing.
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The Gold Note is a beautiful piece but it's not really a GanFet amp. It uses MOSFETS in the output stage and features GanFets only in its output oscillator. That it runs cool might be because it appears to have a built-in fan! See "https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/thoughts-on-this-gold-note-pa-10-power-amplifier.24984/" Myself, I've never been a fan of built-in .... GanFet output stages don't have, don't need, built-in fans. They don't even, or barely, have heat sinks! So this design is not really exploiting GanFets in the way that Orchard Audio, Class D Audio, Atma-Sphere, etc., do (and not that you claimed it does). But if the most compelling aspects of the new GanFet technology are its relative simplicity, light weight, low cost, low heat dissipation, small package, and extraordinary sound quality, it seems GanFet output stages are required. Nonetheless, as has been said too many times here, if you enjoy the sound...
whoa i was not aware of this twist about GanFet utilization. thanks for the elucidation catluck. the GoldNote does have: extraordinary sound, light weight, small footprint, cool running (i dont see or hear a fan or feel any air or heat escaping - maybe i run it at a low level?).
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Mr. Big,
Of all the really big boys SONY is probably the brand I most respect. I owned the XA-7, and XA-54 (I think these are correct model #'s) and I loved them. CD players both and sounded so warm, and detailed, and were absolutely reliable in all respects. Sony's first SACD player, as you correctly note, IMO, was a work of art. Takes me back.... Yeah, as I've also noted, I'm through with 100 lb. amps as well. If there's a disconnect between our views re: Class D (but ONLY as it concerns GanFets NOT MOSFETS), it's that the gulf between tubes and GanFets re: midrange flesh, juice, soul, has, IMO, been reduced so convincingly as to allow GanFets to take the lead sonically (they're just quieter - and that's without considering their other enormous advantages in weight, cost, heat, materials consumption, etc.) And, remember, I'm a TUBE GUY for over 35 years (300B, KT88, 6550, 2A3, 6C33, 845). I've still got 5 pairs of tube monoblocks. But as I'm sitting here listening to Keith Jarrett, Radiance, the leading edge, decay, rich timbre, and tonal density of piano notes, all seemingly perfect (or, at least wholly satisfying) leave me wanting nothing in comparison to tubes. NOTHING. Symbols, jazz guitar, stand-up bass, everything sounds better to me with GanFets than with tubes. It's not a "different" thing as you suspect- it's a greater realism thing. A more alive thing. A far more satisfying thing.
Nice. I'll watch to see how many keep and sell these D amps after the newest wares off, I might have interest down the road, but if I have to go to a tube preamp for them to sound good, I'll pass. I love the care free use of SS gear, currently my Mark Levinson amps and its matching 326S preamp. By the way my friend brought XA7ES and it was also still going 20 years later with no issues.
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:D remember the 'old world' where SIZE matters. Haha. I really want to try this amp but how on earth can this little thing make sound like my old 100 pound A/B amp.? Hard as hell to wrap your head around .. The power savings alone is big time. Not to mention a few other great benifits. :D I don't collect amps so I'm a little on the fence yet. Dam new and improved stuff ! :D
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if I have to go to a tube preamp for them to sound good, I'll pass.
in my recent comparisons, a tube preamp [joule LA-100] added holographic soundstage thru class D [nord one] amplification (proving to me that class D amps are capable of holographic soundstaging). the quite a few ss preamps that i tried were all over the place as far as dynamics, details, bass, lack of edge and harshness, etc. the best one (to my ears, in my system) that i tried is the hegel p20. it does not produce the soundstage of the joule, but is its equal in most of the other ways, and better in a few. so, no, in my experience, one does not need to use a tube pre to get great sound on M3s with a class D amp, but one may use a tube pre to get great sound on M3s with a class D amp.
as indicated above, others' ears and systems are different so YRMV. the bottom line is that good class D amps are highly revealing of the preamp upstream, and do make its choice critical.
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So, the Orchard Audio is available as a finished amp...stereo or mono blocks....here is the link....
https://orchardaudio.com/product/starkrismon_stereo_ultra_500w_stereo_amp/
It's been getting great reviews...here is one of them....
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/orchard-audio-starkrimson-stereo-ultra-amplifier-review/
Leo has had the amp "on tour" at SHF and it is getting great reviews there as well
Back to the miniGan5...all good points about the low cost vs performance factor....one question for those that have it....does it thump when turning on or off or does it have some kind of a delay that attenuates the thump?
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one question for those that have it....does it thump when turning on or off or does it have some kind of a delay that attenuates the thump?
When I press the power button, two very tiny lights come on briefly on the front left and right and there is a very faint "tick" from the speakers. It's not even as loud as the relays switching when I change the volume on the Holo Serene preamp. Definitely not a thump, and seems well behaved to me.
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So, the Orchard Audio is available as a finished amp...stereo or mono blocks....here is the link....
https://orchardaudio.com/product/starkrismon_stereo_ultra_500w_stereo_amp/
It's been getting great reviews...here is one of them....
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/orchard-audio-starkrimson-stereo-ultra-amplifier-review/
Leo has had the amp "on tour" at SHF and it is getting great reviews there as well
Back to the miniGan5...all good points about the low cost vs performance factor....one question for those that have it....does it thump when turning on or off or does it have some kind of a delay that attenuates the thump?
I'm on this tour and excited to be able to have both amps in house at the same time. Anyone in Arizona or nearby is welcome to drop in. Or come to Sedona for a holiday and I'll provide an evening of music. I also have my Reference Don Sachs amp to compare them to as well.
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:D now that will be a good story. Comparo of good newer gear. Well done. :D
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I would be interested in hearing any GaN amplifier if someone has one near Sacramento, CA and they are willing to share.
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Ron5 - as I've noted, the MiniGans are dead silent for me on "turn on." Nothing. NewZoo reports a faint relay type sound in his system. And, as previously noted, with ear to the tweeter - again, no hiss - nothing. Just glorious music emanating from the M3's. Also, as previously noted, I auditioned BOTH the Orchard Audio Starkrimson monos and the MiniGan5's simultaneously. My previous posts explain why I kept the MiniGans and returned the Starkrimsons. No regrets.
BTW, I tried both amps on my Merlins upstairs. Same results as with the M3's. MiniGans preferred.
Finally, to Mr. Big, yes, I am using a tube pre-amp (actually a pre-amp with both tube and SS stages - the Freya+). I've owned expensive amps as previously noted (BAT VK-51SE,. VK52SE, Audio Research SP11 and others). This Freya is amazing (albeit with uber quality NOS n7's) and IMO the equal of my previous kit but quieter and so much easier to deal with. The Freya, in tube stage, makes listening to the MiniGans seem like an end-game system for me. It's only 11lbs., superbly engineered and beautifully understated. I guess I'm just over the big, heavy, gluttonous kit costing absurd sums and which all too often has no soul. It only took me 30 years....
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Catluck… just to clarify… were your amps from Leo the Starkcrimson Ultras?
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This Gallium Nitride class D amp thread has been a fun read for me. I have never been so engaged with class D amps until now. I owned PS Audio's S300 and M700 mono blocks, but did not try them with my X5s as I sold the M700s to pursue tubes and the S300 was used in my second system with the PS Audio Gain Cell DAC. They use MOSFETs anyway, so the newer technology is much better from what I'm reading.
It's amazing how some are praising the MiniGan5 and how it is crushing their well respected brands. This is probably frustrating to some because they've spent a lot of money on a major brand and find it difficult to understand how this inexpensive, lightweight product is able to perform at an astonishing level and cost pennies compared to most hi-end brands. That may be why some have found a myriad of reasons to avoid the product without even hearing it, even after fellow forum members have praised it and they're using the same speaker manufacturer that we all own. Stereophile may praise a component, but they're not using Spatial Audio in the review, yet we value their opinion. If you can't audition a piece of gear, what do you do, you read reviews and forums. In fact, you're reading this forum about the MiniGan5s, so that confirms you read reviews/forums to gather information about a hifi product. Lol... Most of us bought the Spatials without hearing them. I think the good reviews on this MiniGan5 forum is real and just as trustworthy as a magazine published review. I'm ok with an inexpensive product embarrassing my Luxman. I could sell it, buy the inexpensive piece and put money in the bank! Many good questions and concerns have been mentioned about the company, but Don Sachs is a one man show and I haven't heard anyone having heartburns about him retiring or unable to provide support due to an emergency situation. I'm sure some would question our Spatial Audio purchase because Spatial Audio is a small company. I was concerned about Spatial Audio being a new and small company, but after communicating with Clayton several times, I took a chance and pulled the trigger and I don't regret it because Clayton stands behind his product.
Concerning the fear of loss in a resale scenario of the MiniGan5s, I have another perspective. I bought a brand new Luxman L-509x integrated in 2021 for $10k. The Luxman L-509x are going for around $6.5k used, so when I do the math, I could potentially lose $3.5K in a resale vs. my fellow forum members, literally, giving away their MiniGan5s for free and only losing the $1,500 bucks that they paid for it. I think the MiniGan5 owners are in better shape than me. :duh: If you bought your expensive gear used, you might be in better shape than me, but you still may end up losing more money than the MiniGan5 owners because their product is very inexpensive and doesn't have the potential for a big loss!
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DBT - words'o'wisdom. precise and on-point. I too have pricey gear and it will, most likely, be gathering dust for the time being. Actually, I've been thinking about vendors who don't sell GanFet amps and how they will be affected, profit wise, as GanFets begin to take market share - and they will take market share. Their incentive is to denigrate GanFets because, as inexpensive as the products are, relative to big class A - A/B products, the profit margins collapse unless, of course, they build new markets and make up for small margins with volume. In example, my 30 year old daughter, who grew up with tubes and big class A kit, and loves music/audio, found them to be mostly objectionable. Too big, heavy, AC consumptive, essentially boys' toys. But she was here visiting recently and fell in love with the MiniGans - a product she not only would own but now has on her "to get" list. Conversion. GanFets may be the key to vivifying a previously dormant market for audiophile quality gear among her peer group. She can afford it, carry it, and revel in the sound quality. Interesting times.
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One of the things these amps are doing is restructuring where you spend your audio dollars. In the not-too-distant past, a huge chunk of your audio budget went toward big amps. Today, the amp can be your least costly component. The highest cost component has shifted to DACs.
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Ron5 - sorry for the late reply. I auditioned Leo's Starkrimson monos not the Ultra.
As to the largest share of the audio dollars being spent on the DAC, I wonder about that. For instance, the Okto Research DAC 8 Stereo, which has RAVE reviews from all who have auditioned/tested it, sells for $1,500. Yeah, it's currently out of stock and you have to wait 6-8 weeks for delivery. I know because I've purchased two. But when Atkinson favorably compares the DAC to the $15K MBL well... I can say, after auditioning a Weiss 502 for about 6 months (a audiophile client -cardiologist- went on sabbatical to France and let me use his Weiss) the Okto is every bit as musical. I haven't gone to exotic DACs - just couldn't muster the courage to spend that kind of dough. So exotic could be truly different. But when a product receives comments like,
"Not only does the Okto dac8 Stereo offer superb sound quality and state-of-the-art measured performance; its price is a fraction of what you'd pay for competing products. The only strikes against it are that the lead time on orders is quite lengthy, 6–8 weeks when I wrote this, according to the Okto Research website, and that service and support must come from overseas. A winner, nonetheless!" John Atkinson, Stereophile, Jan. 20, 2021
"Okto's dac8 Stereo performed supremely well on the test bench.—John Atkinson
"okto has done it again: producing state-of-the-art, class-leading, instrument-grade DAC. Not only that, the mechanicals and usability are a good match for it as well. When someone as picky as me can't find any faults, you can tell the job is well done. Very well done. It is my pleasure to highly recommend the okto dac8 stereo DAC." Okto dac8 stereo DAC Review, Amir, ASR Review, Jul 14, 2020
I can say the OR DAC 8 is an outstanding piece in direct comparison to the Weiss which is also very highly regarded. My point is that dollars allocated to expensive exotic DAC's may not be the best allocation. I'm wondering if speakers shouldn't get the larger share if/when I can purchase a $1,500 DAC competitive with DACs at 10x the price? I'm not aware of a cheaper speaker that out-performs the M3's. So in my case, it's now the speakers that are the most expensive components of my system. But, as always, to each his/her own.
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Just out. Looks really well made.
https://www.denafrips.com/terminator-plus
To commemorate DENAFRIPS’s 12 years of digital audio excellence, the Terminator Plus 12th Anniversary Edition features performance enhancements one would never thought possible.
If you’re a music lover and you want the best listening experience, one of the key ingredients in the quality of your sound is the digital-to-analog converter or DAC.
Terminator Plus 12th DAC is built upon the success of the award-winning original Terminator DAC. DENAFRIPS engineering team pushes the boundaries further in all aspects, to reach new heights.
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This Gallium Nitride class D amp thread has been a fun read for me. I have never been so engaged with class D amps until now. I owned PS Audio's S300 and M700 mono blocks, but did not try them with my X5s as I sold the M700s to pursue tubes and the S300 was used in my second system with the PS Audio Gain Cell DAC. They use MOSFETs anyway, so the newer technology is much better from what I'm reading.
It's amazing how some are praising the MiniGan5 and how it is crushing their well respected brands. This is probably frustrating to some because they've spent a lot of money on a major brand and find it difficult to understand how this inexpensive, lightweight product is able to perform at an astonishing level and cost pennies compared to most hi-end brands. That may be why some have found a myriad of reasons to avoid the product without even hearing it, even after fellow forum members have praised it and they're using the same speaker manufacturer that we all own. Stereophile may praise a component, but they're not using Spatial Audio in the review, yet we value their opinion. If you can't audition a piece of gear, what do you do, you read reviews and forums. In fact, you're reading this forum about the MiniGan5s, so that confirms you read reviews/forums to gather information about a hifi product. Lol... Most of us bought the Spatials without hearing them. I think the good reviews on this MiniGan5 forum is real and just as trustworthy as a magazine published review. I'm ok with an inexpensive product embarrassing my Luxman. I could sell it, buy the inexpensive piece and put money in the bank! Many good questions and concerns have been mentioned about the company, but Don Sachs is a one man show and I haven't heard anyone having heartburns about him retiring or unable to provide support due to an emergency situation. I'm sure some would question our Spatial Audio purchase because Spatial Audio is a small company. I was concerned about Spatial Audio being a new and small company, but after communicating with Clayton several times, I took a chance and pulled the trigger and I don't regret it because Clayton stands behind his product.
Concerning the fear of loss in a resale scenario of the MiniGan5s, I have another perspective. I bought a brand new Luxman L-509x integrated in 2021 for $10k. The Luxman L-509x are going for around $6.5k used, so when I do the math, I could potentially lose $3.5K in a resale vs. my fellow forum members, literally, giving away their MiniGan5s for free and only losing the $1,500 bucks that they paid for it. I think the MiniGan5 owners are in better shape than me. :duh: If you bought your expensive gear used, you might be in better shape than me, but you still may end up losing more money than the MiniGan5 owners because their product is very inexpensive and doesn't have the potential for a big loss!
If you buy anything new you will loss money when sold, a new car is the same thing. But though you may lose 3.5K off full retail price you still have 6.5K that could be used for another piece of gear and cost you zip on that next piece of gear if preowned could be 10K or even more new retail. So its all relative. You have 6.5K in the bank to use when you sell, if you do.
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This Gallium Nitride class D amp thread has been a fun read for me. I have never been so engaged with class D amps until now. I owned PS Audio's S300 and M700 mono blocks, but did not try them with my X5s as I sold the M700s to pursue tubes and the S300 was used in my second system with the PS Audio Gain Cell DAC. They use MOSFETs anyway, so the newer technology is much better from what I'm reading.
It's amazing how some are praising the MiniGan5 and how it is crushing their well respected brands. This is probably frustrating to some because they've spent a lot of money on a major brand and find it difficult to understand how this inexpensive, lightweight product is able to perform at an astonishing level and cost pennies compared to most hi-end brands. That may be why some have found a myriad of reasons to avoid the product without even hearing it, even after fellow forum members have praised it and they're using the same speaker manufacturer that we all own. Stereophile may praise a component, but they're not using Spatial Audio in the review, yet we value their opinion. If you can't audition a piece of gear, what do you do, you read reviews and forums. In fact, you're reading this forum about the MiniGan5s, so that confirms you read reviews/forums to gather information about a hifi product. Lol... Most of us bought the Spatials without hearing them. I think the good reviews on this MiniGan5 forum is real and just as trustworthy as a magazine published review. I'm ok with an inexpensive product embarrassing my Luxman. I could sell it, buy the inexpensive piece and put money in the bank! Many good questions and concerns have been mentioned about the company, but Don Sachs is a one man show and I haven't heard anyone having heartburns about him retiring or unable to provide support due to an emergency situation. I'm sure some would question our Spatial Audio purchase because Spatial Audio is a small company. I was concerned about Spatial Audio being a new and small company, but after communicating with Clayton several times, I took a chance and pulled the trigger and I don't regret it because Clayton stands behind his product.
Concerning the fear of loss in a resale scenario of the MiniGan5s, I have another perspective. I bought a brand new Luxman L-509x integrated in 2021 for $10k. The Luxman L-509x are going for around $6.5k used, so when I do the math, I could potentially lose $3.5K in a resale vs. my fellow forum members, literally, giving away their MiniGan5s for free and only losing the $1,500 bucks that they paid for it. I think the MiniGan5 owners are in better shape than me. :duh: If you bought your expensive gear used, you might be in better shape than me, but you still may end up losing more money than the MiniGan5 owners because their product is very inexpensive and doesn't have the potential for a big loss!
I'm a bit baffled :scratch:, but that's nothing new. If I had a Luxman 509, I wouldn't be terribly worried about the MiniGan 5's. That is unless the Luxman is somehow not cutting it with the Spatial's. I have a the smaller MiniGan3 version btw. Regardless, I'd still keep the Luxman and just buy the MiniGan 5's. If the 5's end up the clear winner, only then would I consider selling the Luxman. This also contingent on the Spatial being the speaker you'll be married to for the rest of your life. Bottom line and if it were me, I'd probably keep both. With this all said, maybe I'm missing a key point mentioned earlier in this thread.
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I'm following this thread for weeks now as I'm considering a new amp to power my front three X3s. I currently use the Parasound Halo A52+ (class A A/B) to power the X3s and my two, 4 Ohm, rear SVS Ultra bookshelf surrounds. My X3s sound great to me so my first thought is to get the Parasound A31 to drive the X3s. But, class D amps are all the rage right now. I was looking at the new Purifi 1ET400A amp (in the NAD and others amp makers). Buckeye is making a new Purifi 1ET400A based three channel amp with some positive feedback from consumers. That was until the NAD M33 was completely trashed by Ron at New Record Day for being "too digital" sounding with a thin mid-range and "screechy" treble. It's a MOSFET module. Not sure I can trust any Purifi based amplifier now.
I come now to GANFET amplifiers. This amplifier appears to have advantages over MOSFET. But, again, lovers and haters. I'm not ready to make a buy decision and not interested in tube amplifiers. So, I'll wait on the sidelines, looking for folks with Spatial speakers actually using the new GANFET amplifiers. The Parasound A31 is still my top choice. This is going to be a supremely tough decision.
Marcus
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I'm following this thread for weeks now as I'm considering a new amp to power my front three X3s. I currently use the Parasound Halo A52+ (class A A/B) to power the X3s and my two, 4 Ohm, rear SVS Ultra bookshelf surrounds. My X3s sound great to me so my first thought is to get the Parasound A31 to drive the X3s. But, class D amps are all the rage right now. I was looking at the new Purifi 1ET400A amp (in the NAD and others amp makers). Buckeye is making a new Purifi 1ET400A based three channel amp with some positive feedback from consumers. That was until the NAD M33 was completely trashed by Ron at New Record Day for being "too digital" sounding with a thin mid-range and "screechy" treble. It's a MOSFET module. Not sure I can trust any Purifi based amplifier now.
My prediction -- both the Purifi and GanFET amps will destroy your Parasound in the first round. Yeah, I know -- that's a pretty bold statement. You have nothing to lose by trying either one. If it doesn't work out for you, return it. If I'm right, sell your Parasound and the new amp costs you nothing.
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[quote author=Desertpilot link=topic=183099.msg1926187#msg1926187 date=166516455
I come now to GANFET amplifiers. This amplifier appears to have advantages over MOSFET. But, again, lovers and haters.
[/quote]
i can not imagine anyone who has heard one actually hating it. could see them preferring the bloom of tubes or something - but these new amps do almost nothing WRONG.
PS i can imagine someone who has not heard one hating it. i was a class D hater til recently.
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If you buy anything new you will loss money when sold, a new car is the same thing. But though you may lose 3.5K off full retail price you still have 6.5K that could be used for another piece of gear and cost you zip on that next piece of gear if preowned could be 10K or even more new retail. So its all relative. You have 6.5K in the bank to use when you sell, if you do.
I understand what you’re saying. I was just making a point that the MiniGan5s are really inexpensive and the loss is not as great as mine would be, given the scenario I posed. If we take our time to learn more about these new class D offerings and take advantage of the trial periods, we may not need to waste money on an expensive class A or A/B amp if it’s inferior to the class D offerings? A $3.5k loss is still worse than a $1.5k loss anyway you look at it.
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I'm a bit baffled :scratch:, but that's nothing new. If I had a Luxman 509, I wouldn't be terribly worried about the MiniGan 5's. That is unless the Luxman is somehow not cutting it with the Spatial's. I have a the smaller MiniGan3 version btw. Regardless, I'd still keep the Luxman and just buy the MiniGan 5's. If the 5's end up the clear winner, only then would I consider selling the Luxman. This also contingent on the Spatial being the speaker you'll be married to for the rest of your life. Bottom line and if it were me, I'd probably keep both. With this all said, maybe I'm missing a key point mentioned earlier in this thread.
I have no desire to get rid of my Luxman or pursue any amps at this time. I’m actually selling my X5s pretty soon, so my post was about having an open mind to a cheap made product that could possibly outperform my Luxman or any other high line amp that the forum members may have.
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I'm following this thread for weeks now as I'm considering a new amp to power my front three X3s. I currently use the Parasound Halo A52+ (class A A/B) to power the X3s and my two, 4 Ohm, rear SVS Ultra bookshelf surrounds. My X3s sound great to me so my first thought is to get the Parasound A31 to drive the X3s. But, class D amps are all the rage right now. I was looking at the new Purifi 1ET400A amp (in the NAD and others amp makers). Buckeye is making a new Purifi 1ET400A based three channel amp with some positive feedback from consumers. That was until the NAD M33 was completely trashed by Ron at New Record Day for being "too digital" sounding with a thin mid-range and "screechy" treble. It's a MOSFET module. Not sure I can trust any Purifi based amplifier now.
I come now to GANFET amplifiers. This amplifier appears to have advantages over MOSFET. But, again, lovers and haters. I'm not ready to make a buy decision and not interested in tube amplifiers. So, I'll wait on the sidelines, looking for folks with Spatial speakers actually using the new GANFET amplifiers. The Parasound A31 is still my top choice. This is going to be a supremely tough decision.
Marcus
I believe the NAD modules take the basic Purifi module and build a fancy box, nothing more using the basic hypex inputs. The key I believe is getting the right opamps for these. Check out the three channel VTV.
I have the NCore based VTV 3 channel for my Ht set up that uses the NX Studio monitors from GR Research and it sounds great. I believe the Purifi module with Any of the various upgraded Opamps would be an even better fit.
I was about to pull the trigger on just such an amp when I found this Class D Gan Fet. I Have the stereo unit now and the monos arrive today. Not sure I’ll try the VTV now but perhaps I will one day under the trial period just for fun.
Definitely worth a try if you have a few bucks to spare. Low risk investment IMO. Great customer service and shipped within one day.
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts on my amp purchase decisions. I agree, for nominal cost, I can try these Class D amps and return them if I'm not happy.
My top contenders:
The Class D Mini GAN 5 (three monoblocks). 15 day trial.
The Buckeye Purifi 1ET400A Amplifier, 3-channel: https://www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/p/purifi-1et400a-amplifier-3-channel (https://www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/p/purifi-1et400a-amplifier-3-channel). 30 day trial.
I'll give it a try.
Marcus
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts on my amp purchase decisions. I agree, for nominal cost, I can try these Class D amps and return them if I'm not happy.
My top contenders:
The Class D Mini GAN 5 (three monoblocks). 15 day trial.
The Buckeye Purifi 1ET400A Amplifier, 3-channel: https://www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/p/purifi-1et400a-amplifier-3-channel (https://www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/p/purifi-1et400a-amplifier-3-channel). 30 day trial.
I'll give it a try.
Marcus
I wasn’t aware that Buckeye uses a Custom Input Buffer board so I bet that’s one of the reasons they have a good reputation.
Just got the Monos set up and these guys definitely will need some break in as the monos are not as open and spacious as the Stereo unit that I have that’s well broken in. Just wanted to post that for others as I have the two to compare first hand.
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The later uses 1 shared ps for 3 channels. My lean would be dual mono/ mono blocks.
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these guys definitely will need some break in as the monos are not as open and spacious as the Stereo unit that I have that’s well broken in.
My Mini GaN 5 monoblocks are on 208 hours of break-in now. There has been additional opening up and relaxing since the ~150 hour mark. I don't know yet if I'm near the end of break-in.
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I understand what you’re saying. I was just making a point that the MiniGan5s are really inexpensive and the loss is not as great as mine would be, given the scenario I posed. If we take our time to learn more about these new class D offerings and take advantage of the trial periods, we may not need to waste money on an expensive class A or A/B amp if it’s inferior to the class D offerings? A $3.5k loss is still worse than a $1.5k loss anyway you look at it.
Class A-A/B have been around for years, and over those years they have become better and better, Class D is new and from what I found on Youtube and on the net, every Tom, Dick, and Harry is selling them, why because they are cheap and easy to DIY. No your loss on a no-name class D is still a loss with little back for the sale even if someone will buy it, at least with the Luxman you got 6.5K back, but hey it's your money. :)
Is class D the future, well it might be then it might not, but to be honest the boomers are the audio hobby and as they die off then younger folks may be the class D people, but right now I know several dealers who sell class D and say they are good for the money but it ends then, gobs of power on the cheap. See the luxman pocket the money and buy the Class amps that be a smart move. You pocket a lot of money. You buy new it loses value, to expect that not to happen makes no sense. But the band wagon is Class D on this post so go for it, got zip to lose only $1,400 and that not even one of my power cords, smile! Yes, I'm nuts. :lol:
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Class A-A/B have been around for years, and over those years they have become better and better, Class D is new and from what I found on Youtube and on the net, every Tom, Dick, and Harry is selling them, why because they are cheap and easy to DIY.
Cheap and easy DIY is certainly a good thing for the consumer for three reasons -- nearly anyone can build an amp, sameness spurs competition, and you can more easily discern differences in build quality.
Until 2 years ago, I wasn't a fan of Class D. With the introduction of Purifi modules and now GanFet, the game has changed. Yeah, the older audiophiles will likely remain skeptical and that's OK. I have an older friend with massive monoblocks and he's not gonna part with them because they're too heavy. If he wanted to sell them, he'd be limited to a local pickup and would likely get far less money for them. I've offered to bring over one of my Class D amps to demo in his home, but he doesn't want to be tempted in upgrading.
Glad to see that you're taking the plunge...
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NewZoo… what is the power rating of your monos?
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Class A-A/B have been around for years, and over those years they have become better and better, Class D is new and from what I found on Youtube and on the net, every Tom, Dick, and Harry is selling them, why because they are cheap and easy to DIY. No your loss on a no-name class D is still a loss with little back for the sale even if someone will buy it, at least with the Luxman you got 6.5K back, but hey it's your money. :)
Is class D the future, well it might be then it might not, but to be honest the boomers are the audio hobby and as they die off then younger folks may be the class D people, but right now I know several dealers who sell class D and say they are good for the money but it ends then, gobs of power on the cheap. See the luxman pocket the money and buy the Class amps that be a smart move. You pocket a lot of money. You buy new it loses value, to expect that not to happen makes no sense. But the band wagon is Class D on this post so go for it, got zip to lose only $1,400 and that not even one of my power cords, smile! Yes, I'm nuts. :lol:
As I stated in my last post, I’m not looking to buy or sell anything. I gave a scenario using my Luxman as an example of how it could be more cost effective to buy an inexpensive class D amp IF it outperforms my Luxman or any high dollar amp the forum members may own. You keep mentioning I could get $6.5k back from the sale of my Luxman. I think you’re missing my point, the $6.5k return doesn’t help my bottom line loss of $3.5k vs. the GanFet amp owner, who could literally give his amp away, and only lose the $1.5k that he paid for it? He could sell it and get something for it, but that wasn’t part of my scenario. They never spent $10k, to begin with, to have a concern about trying to get $6.5k back from a sale, so the bottom line is, the $3.5k is a greater loss than $1.5k anyway you look at it. Again, I’m not selling my Luxman, so no money losses for me.
I’m trying to understand why some seem to have such a negative point of view on the product these guys are praising and they’ve never heard it? Everyone thought Elon Musk’s electric cars were a fad and a joke. Now, Elon Musk runs the show as the most valuable automobile manufacturer in the world. That’s shockingly insane for a young EV manufacturer to take the lead in a world of gasoline vehicles. Class D has the ability to be has good or better than the amps we all know and love. I understand, who wants to see these tiny little mono block amps sitting next to their gear when we’re used to seeing the gigantic beasts sitting on our amp stands? I’ll be honest, I can’t stand the way they look, but I respect what they bring to the table. LOL…. It’s hard to believe that these little cheap amps are giving the big boys a run for their money.
You mentioned every Tom, Dick and Harry on YouTube, etc., is selling their class D amps as if the same are not selling their class A/B amps. It’s fine to love and keep what you have, I’m just saying I’m open to the possibility that these cheap little amps may crush my current amp and I think some are afraid to admit the same. :D
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Seems DBT is far more right than wrong. It's somewhat puzzling to see condemnation and/or justification for denying the validity of the GanFet solution by those having no informed opinion. Conservatism acts to protect the status quo and there's arguable utility in that position. But here the GanFet solution, NOT MOSFET Class D, has met with universal praise. Some might not be ready to abandon their tubes and/or SS but nobody, thus far, who has an INFORMED opinion, has leveled any criticism of the GanFets. Interestingly, it appears that many of the contributors to this thread are older guys. Not surprised in the least to see resistance to "new." How can something so small, cheap, etc., be any good? I don't suppose it matters to remind that group that technology, in general, following Moore's Law, has been getting more powerful, smaller, and manifesting greater performance. It's a lack of imagination to fail to understand that these little boxes could outperform their massive A/AB competitors. That's what's so shocking when you first hear these amps. Their refinement, presence, clarity, bass and tonal purity are superior to SS class A/AB and/or tube, at least in my systems. Consider a recent post from Tom Rost to me,
"Actually, our first GaN amps used the HUGE linear power supply. Keep in mind, besides the linear power supply, it also used a large toroid transformer weighing over 8 pounds. The cases were CNC machined. Attached photos... inside view is just rough prototype. What happened after that is when designing the mini GaN, I was able to pull the same performance as the bigger amp and at less than half the price. It just didn't make sense to go ahead with the larger amps as prices would start at more than double the Mini GaN for the same or possibly less performance. We use a newly developed LLC converter in the mini GaN with some newer technology that allows us to get the excellent performance in a very small package."
Hardly "tom, dick, harry" stuff. Further, as far as any "tom, dick, harry" engaging in class D start-ups: 1) who cares and why? Either the product justifies its existence/price by commensurate performance or it doesn't; and 2) products that are designed with unique topology/architecture are not "tom, dick, harry" products. Class D Audio, Orchard Audio, Atma-Sphere, as examples, apparently designed their proprietary circuits. This is not about throwing a Madison Sound or EPC board into a chassis and calling it a GanFet amp. These designers deserve a chance and, perhaps, even a hint of generosity before being blindly condemned with blanket assertions like "tom, dick, harry" doing DIY kit.
At the end of the day, boomers, are aging out. If the audio market is to survive one doesn't need to be much of a visionary to see that GanFets provide the way forward. As I wrote earlier, my daughter and her peer group of music lovers, are put-off by the old, and by now really old school, heavy, ponderous, blah, blah, blah, products virtually indistinguishable from those of the last 50 years. GanFets will bury MOSFETS and the old school guys that want to keep their MOSFET kit, well, that's fine. The rest of us will walk out of the desert to the promised land.
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Is class D the future, well it might be then it might not, but to be honest the boomers are the audio hobby and as they die off then younger folks may be the class D people
Hey just a sec... speaking as a baby boomer we're not ready to die off just yet! I've been in this hobby for a long time and have been using Class D amplification for the past few years. One thing we boomers have besides a love for audio is $$$s, that's right, I can afford any amp I want and yet I have no interest in making a change. I am continually amazed by how great my system sounds with class D amplifying it.
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Seems DBT is far more right than wrong. It's somewhat puzzling to see condemnation and/or justification for denying the validity of the GanFet solution by those having no informed opinion. Conservatism acts to protect the status quo and there's arguable utility in that position. But here the GanFet solution, NOT MOSFET Class D, has met with universal praise. Some might not be ready to abandon their tubes and/or SS but nobody, thus far, who has an INFORMED opinion, has leveled any criticism of the GanFets. Interestingly, it appears that many of the contributors to this thread are older guys. Not surprised in the least to see resistance to "new." How can something so small, cheap, etc., be any good? I don't suppose it matters to remind that group that technology, in general, following Moore's Law, has been getting more powerful, smaller, and manifesting greater performance. It's a lack of imagination to fail to understand that these little boxes could outperform their massive A/AB competitors. That's what's so shocking when you first hear these amps. Their refinement, presence, clarity, bass and tonal purity are superior to SS class A/AB and/or tube, at least in my systems. Consider a recent post from Tom Rost to me,
"Actually, our first GaN amps used the HUGE linear power supply. Keep in mind, besides the linear power supply, it also used a large toroid transformer weighing over 8 pounds. The cases were CNC machined. Attached photos... inside view is just rough prototype. What happened after that is when designing the mini GaN, I was able to pull the same performance as the bigger amp and at less than half the price. It just didn't make sense to go ahead with the larger amps as prices would start at more than double the Mini GaN for the same or possibly less performance. We use a newly developed LLC converter in the mini GaN with some newer technology that allows us to get the excellent performance in a very small package."
Hardly "tom, dick, harry" stuff. Further, as far as any "tom, dick, harry" engaging in class D start-ups: 1) who cares and why? Either the product justifies its existence/price by commensurate performance or it doesn't; and 2) products that are designed with unique topology/architecture are not "tom, dick, harry" products. Class D Audio, Orchard Audio, Atma-Sphere, as examples, apparently designed their proprietary circuits. This is not about throwing a Madison Sound or EPC board into a chassis and calling it a GanFet amp. These designers deserve a chance and, perhaps, even a hint of generosity before being blindly condemned with blanket assertions like "tom, dick, harry" doing DIY kit.
At the end of the day, boomers, are aging out. If the audio market is to survive one doesn't need to be much of a visionary to see that GanFets provide the way forward. As I wrote earlier, my daughter and her peer group of music lovers, are put-off by the old, and by now really old school, heavy, ponderous, blah, blah, blah, products virtually indistinguishable from those of the last 50 years. GanFets will bury MOSFETS and the old-school guys that want to keep their MOSFET kit, well, that's fine. The rest of us will walk out of the desert to the promised land.
I am not trying to argue here about class D good or bad it is a personal choice. Having said that I get the feeling of if you have not heard them then you don't really know how they sound. Well per my past post I have And to say that we who may not drink the kool-aide in class D and our somewhat behind, well that is crap, it just that we know what sounds right perhaps and don't following trends, but I think Class D may be in the future the way to go, and like I also said I may go that way myself at some point not for the best sound but due to ease and loss of weight as I also stated. I could also say you not heard my Mark Levinson gear with my M3's. But then I've not heard the Class D brand either but I have heard:
1. Element 114 Stereo Power Amplifier (Cleanest)
2. PS Audio 1200 (most musical)
3. Jeff Rowland Model 625 ( Best of both above)
Enjoyed all of, them and kept my A/B.
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Always good to keep a healthy level of skepticism - fads and amps of the month are indeed common in this hobby. Many folks on AudioCircle fell victim to aggressive posting tactics by the Mivera guys several years ago as the latest Ice 1200 modules came out, and I can see how some might get more than a whiff of that experience from Catluck’s quickness to respond with highly enthusiastic and thorough responses to each and ever post on this thread.
That said, it seems unfair to just lump this in with “Class D” tech and move on. First, Catluck isn’t a dealer/manufacturer and has no skin in the game. Second, GAN is new technology! It’s really not the same as silicon-based Class D, like each of Mr. Big’a examples are.
I understand Mr. Big’s unwillingness to try yet another new technology in the evolution of Class D amplification. But I understood that just as clearly after his first post. How many pages ago was that?
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I heard a GaN amp at RMAF before it was disbanded. They are good sounding amps, definitely better than class D I've heard in the past.
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:D it all comes across as the 'flav of the month' . But till one can A-B back to back and side by side,, one never knows. I'd love to donate my 100 pound amp to a cargo ship for an anchor. Save power too. Win win. I did come very close to jumping on this train. Let's see what happens here. :popcorn: :D
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:D it all comes across as the 'flav of the month' . But till one can A-B back to back and side by side,, one never knows. I'd love to donate my 100 pound amp to a cargo ship for an anchor. Save power too. Win win. I did come very close to jumping on this train. Let's see what happens here. :popcorn: :D
That's exactly what I did. I replaced my 80 lb. monoblocks with a featherweight Purifi amp and it was no competition at all.
Let's face it -- in the past few years, technology has had a significant impact on audiophiles. This technology is finally impacting amps which haven't seen a major change in decades. Think about it -- there's gotta be a better way to get good sound without using 50 lb transformers or fragile, expensive tubes. We're there now.
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Mr. Big - Fair enough. I take your points. And I've always been and will always be, to each his/her own.
Genjamon - I appreciate your generosity and comments. I would remind all however, that "getting stuck with" or some other variant of "being taken" by hucksters pushing the "fad" or "flavor" of the month, is NOT what I've been advocating for. I have several times simply suggested with that a 15-day trial period from either Class D Audio or Orchard Audio or ???, you're, at worst, out the cost of shipping if you want to try GanFet amps. There's no potential for loss here, except about $30 for shipping. Finally, you may recall if you read the first post in this thread, I came to GanFets a skeptic with a negative bias to boot. I was prepared to pooh-pooh, and derisively sniff at, GanFets - happily retreating to my quality tuibe monoblocks. Knocked on my ass I was.
Still, I started this thread to persuade folks to just try Ganfets. Some will some won't. If nothing else, we've enjoyed a spirited, wide-ranging, and thoughtful conversation. I've read some really good comments here.
Early B - HOORAY! Maybe I've got some company on this island!
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Catluck, even after feeling similarly to Mr. Big after trying a fully decked out Mivera Ice 1200 amp, I’m definitely keen to give a GANfet amp a try at some point, hopefully in the near future. And this thread has been very valuable in helping me focus my attention on the ClassDAudio offerings. It also helps that Mick Wolfe’s is an ear I know and trust. But I’m in no rush and need to free up some cash first.
In the meantime, I’m super interested in what Morgan’s findings are between his stereo and monoblock versions. Seems like most of those who have tried and commented on this thread have balanced/XLR systems and went for the monoblocks. But Morgan is using them single-ended and has the exact same preamp as I do. So his opinion could tell the tale for me as to whether the monoblocks bring enough extra to the table to warrant the near-doubling in cost over a single stereo amp. Is certainly have no need for the extra headroom monoblocks offer.
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genjamon,
:thumb:
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We need a Mini GaN5 mini tour.
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Early B, time it right and you can have your own 15 day tour and only be out $20? bucks. Order at first of month, listen for 15 days, return and have money returned to your card before next payment is due!!
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Always good to keep a healthy level of skepticism - fads and amps of the month are indeed common in this hobby. Many folks on AudioCircle fell victim to aggressive posting tactics by the Mivera guys several years ago as the latest Ice 1200 modules came out, and I can see how some might get more than a whiff of that experience from Catluck’s quickness to respond with highly enthusiastic and thorough responses to each and ever post on this thread.
That said, it seems unfair to just lump this in with “Class D” tech and move on. First, Catluck isn’t a dealer/manufacturer and has no skin in the game. Second, GAN is new technology! It’s really not the same as silicon-based Class D, like each of Mr. Big’a examples are.
I understand Mr. Big’s unwillingness to try yet another new technology in the evolution of Class D amplification. But I understood that just as clearly after his first post. How many pages ago was that?
Well said genjamon. Guess Catluck's superior expression skills tamed by diplomacy can be contagious...in a nut shell, this thread's intent was not to start another subjective debate on Class A/AB/ Solid State (or Tube) amplification types versus whatever state of the art in conventional MOSFET based Class D amplification. In this thread, Catluck has taken pains to introduce to us (AC members/readers), his personal discovery of what he considers to be an extraordinary synergy of a well-executed combination of best practices of Class D amplification principles and GanFets.
The bottom line of Catluck's evaluation, based on his very credible and extensive hands-on experience on these matters, is that the synergy is basically revolutionary with respect to what it does to the cost/benefit equation in the quest to attain the best possible sound quality--in general, and, in particular, using Class-D amplification. Cutting to the chase, if your goal is to own a car that goes from 0-60 in less than 2.5 seconds you can do it with a $1 million Ferrari, an $800K Porsche...or an $80K Tesla. Warning, besides being much more energy efficient, the Tesla is extremely quiet, you barely will hear the engine working; on the other hand, as you know, revving up the engines of those two other cars is absolutely exhilarating!
Mario
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Catluck, even after feeling similarly to Mr. Big after trying a fully decked out Mivera Ice 1200 amp, I’m definitely keen to give a GANfet amp a try at some point, hopefully in the near future. And this thread has been very valuable in helping me focus my attention on the ClassDAudio offerings. It also helps that Mick Wolfe’s is an ear I know and trust. But I’m in no rush and need to free up some cash first.
In the meantime, I’m super interested in what Morgan’s findings are between his stereo and monoblock versions. Seems like most of those who have tried and commented on this thread have balanced/XLR systems and went for the monoblocks. But Morgan is using them single-ended and has the exact same preamp as I do. So his opinion could tell the tale for me as to whether the monoblocks bring enough extra to the table to warrant the near-doubling in cost over a single stereo amp. Is certainly have no need for the extra headroom monoblocks offer.
At this moment the monoblocks are breaking in and I am not hearing a significant improvement over the stereo version. However that may change with a few more hours on the units of course. Will keep y’all updated with any changes.
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Munosmario - Thank you
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At this moment the monoblocks are breaking in and I am not hearing a significant improvement over the stereo version. However that may change with a few more hours on the units of course. Will keep y’all updated with any changes.
Encouraging!
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At this moment the monoblocks are breaking in and I am not hearing a significant improvement over the stereo version. However that may change with a few more hours on the units of course. Will keep y’all updated with any changes.
What is your system setup? Just checking in case the system in your profile is not up to date.
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What is your system setup? Just checking in case the system in your profile is not up to date.
I just updated my profile.
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Always good to keep a healthy level of skepticism - fads and amps of the month are indeed common in this hobby. Many folks on AudioCircle fell victim to aggressive posting tactics by the Mivera guys several years ago as the latest Ice 1200 modules came out, and I can see how some might get more than a whiff of that experience from Catluck’s quickness to respond with highly enthusiastic and thorough responses to each and every post on this thread.
It seems unfair to lump this in with “Class D” tech and move on. First, Catluck isn’t a dealer/manufacturer and has no skin in the game. Second, GAN is new technology! It’s not the same as silicon-based Class D like each of Mr. Big’a examples are.
I understand Mr. Big’s unwillingness to try yet another new technology in the evolution of Class D amplification. But I understood that just as clearly after his first post. How many pages ago was that?
I was not unwilling, I heard the above amps and I said enjoyed what they did but I kept A/B amps because they sounded better overall. There are a ton of amps out there, Class D, A, or A/B. Many internet-driven, not like when I got into this hobby and there not hundreds of amps to hear that you could walk into an audio store and hear perhaps the top 10 amps made, along with their preamps, and make a good decision based on your tastes in music reproduction. So based on what I heard in person, I kept what I had and that was because I did not hear enough improvements or for that matter any, just a different perspective of the presentation, but it was not a holy crap I never heard anything like this, what they all had in common is they sound clean with the great bottom end. I went from box speakers to Electrostatics to open baffle and from a small company so I am not against that at all. Having said that I knew the upside of open baffle designs from a speaker from the 1970's called the Dahlquist DQ10 which was an open baffle from the midrange on up with a sealed woofer. It was one of my most enjoyable speakers along with the Quad ESL's which still sounds more real than any speaker made, but with some limitations on driving them hard, but no speaker purer and tone correct. Still, I love my Sapphires as much because of what I can do with them with peace of mind that I had to watch with the Quads, but the Quads still stand out on their own merits.
I understand when we read so much excitement about a product and everyone flocks to it, be it the newest line power conditioners, folks sell what they had and buy the newest one and find it is good but not much better than the one they owned, but that is what media sales ads are about to get you to buy their unit and if you do you will see God...smile! now regeneration units like PS on a standard on there own and the best I've I heard and used from my front end gear, with my amps on the other side of the room, I could never use any type of conditioner on my whole system, but the front end improvements were positive with the PS Audio units. Then the last few years the Puritan units from England came out, and a big uproar over them, folks writing they kill any others made before them, well they come and gone and you can find them for sale used already. But this is a hobby and it is nice to have options and that is always good! :)
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I think that the underlying point of this thread is very positive. To me that is that in 2022 we can get great amplification at a very fair price and you do not need to ask your buddy to come get it out of the box because it is surrounded by sharp heat sinks and 140lbs with all of the weight uneven where the transformer is.
5-10yrs ago I think that Class D meh and quickly went back to Class A or A/B. Today 3 rooms and all class D. No regret and put that savings in the bank.
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I just updated my profile.
A lot of updates! Cool.
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…folks sell what they had and buy the newest one and find it is good but not much better than the one they owned,…
I don't think anyone here has done that.
One of the good things about the GaN FET amps under discussion (Orchard or Class D Audio or Peachtree Audio) is that they can be trialed at home alongside the amp already in the system and returned if they are not preferable.
I was skeptical and had a number of reservations about design/build choices but there was no down side to trying the amps (well, maybe $30 shipping). I am glad that I did.
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I think that the underlying point of this thread is very positive. To me that is that in 2022 we can get great amplification at a very fair price and you do not need to ask your buddy to come get it out of the box because it is surrounded by sharp heat sinks and 140lbs with all of the weight uneven where the transformer is.
5-10yrs ago I think that Class D meh and quickly went back to Class A or A/B. Today 3 rooms and all class D. No regret and put that savings in the bank.
Bingenito, your comment made me laugh. I'm waiting for a buddy to help me move the 100 lb Psvane 845 monoblocks from their current location. But no worries - I'm still virile, strong, and big enough to handle the 5 lb MiniGans all by myself.
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Question, assuming that I was interested in a limited manufacturer trial, is there an integrated amp with these class D amps? I don't really have a preamp so I can't test out the mono-blocks by themselves. Given my tastes, the preamp section would probably have to have a tube sound.
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Question, assuming that I was interested in a limited manufacturer trial, is there an integrated amp with these class D amps? I don't really have a preamp so I can't test out the mono-blocks by themselves. Given my tastes, the preamp section would probably have to have a tube sound.
do you have an integrated amp with preamp outs?
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You could time a trial of the Schitt Freya+/N preamp for tubes before the classD solid state?
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do you have an integrated amp with preamp outs?
Not a preamp out. Not sure if a stereo subwoofer (which it has) out acts the same.
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The user manual would hopefully tell you if there’s a low pass filter on those outputs or if they’re full range.
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Daryl…. Here you go.
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0922/Rogue_Audio_Pharaoh_II_Integrated_Amplifier_Review.htm
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Forgive me but that amp has hypex NCore class D amps with mosfets. I thought the point of this thread was extolling the GaN Class D amps or am I wrong?
Here is this thread on the differences:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/gan-hypex-icepower
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Daryl Z - you are exactly correct. The point of this thread is to argue for the superiority of GanFets over MOSFETS re: music reproduction. To that end: Title of the thread? check. Numerous references throughout to GanFets as opposed to MOSFETS? check. Technical distinctions (switching frequency, slew rate, replication of square wave) noted detailing the superiority of GanFets over MOSFETS? check.
oh well...
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Just a brief follow up. The Mini GaN 5 Monoblocks are at 255 hours of break-in, and things seems to have stabilized. Changes since the 200 hour mark have been along the trajectory of opening up slightly, resolving a bit of subtle detail more easily, and slightly relaxing.
If anyone does try the amps, 150-200 hours of break-in should be sufficient to gauge what they can do with the M3 Sapphires. If it isn't clear at that point whether the amps are preferable then the improvements beyond that are not likely to shift the impression.
My next step is rig up a remote on/off for them since the Holo Serene pre-amp does not have a 12v out trigger.
I got two 12v/0.5 amp wall warts with 3.5mm mono connectors and will hook these up to a remote controlled plug (e.g. the kind Amazon sells for people to control outdoor Christmas lights, for example). That should let me conveniently turn the monoblocks off at night.
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My next step is rig up a remote on/off for them since the Holo Serene pre-amp does not have a 12v out trigger.
I got two 12v/0.5 amp wall warts with 3.5mm mono connectors and will hook these up to a remote controlled plug (e.g. the kind Amazon sells for people to control outdoor Christmas lights, for example). That should let me conveniently turn the monoblocks off at night.
Can you create a build thread for this? I tried to build a non-remote trigger last year when I owned monos and couldn't get it to work. Thanks.
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Can you create a build thread for this?
Sure, once I test it out and see that it's working I will post the details. I'm waiting for some things in the mail at the moment.
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so, I suppose that means you are keeping them? The more I thought about the miniGAN5 after returning it the more things I recalled liking but could not get away from the SET amp I been loving for a while now. Still, thoughts lingered and........Have FreyaN arriving tomorrow to see how much more "tube sound" it lends in place of my SERENE pre and, if it does anywhere near what I am hoping for and doesn't make me miss the SERENE too much, I plan to order up a pair of monoblocks and give that a go. I chose the N over the + because the tube rolling possibilities with it are HUGE! We will see how it works with my X3s!?!?!?!?
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Yes, I am definitely keeping the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks.
I also have the Serene KTE.
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Lazbisme - I've been using the Freya+ for about a month with the MiniGan 5's. It's the most musical combination I've heard, and by far, on the M3's. So good in fact that my audio neurosis has quieted almost completely. I might fidget with speaker placement, footers, or... (you know how that goes...) But my equipment search is over. My only suggestion with the Freya N, and I suspect you're well aware of this (but I'll note it anyway), is that the tube output is very sensitive to tube quality. I demonstrated this when originally installing cheap Chinese tubes that came with Cary amps I owned some years ago. The Freya sounded thin, bleached, and strident particularly on loud upper frequencies. Replacing the Chinese tubes with uber-quality NOS n7's magically transformed the Freya into all I could ask for musically. Use the best tubes you can. I think you'll find you've got a winning combination. But let us know.
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Not a Spatial owner but ordered the amp this morning. How long was shipping times for those who received them?
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Not a Spatial owner but ordered the amp this morning. How long was shipping times for those who received them?
They used USPS Priority Mail, so whatever you might expect from southern California to your location should be a good estimate.
They were responsive to e-mail when I was ordering: sales@classdaudio.com
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Charles Xavier - in addition to NewZoo's info, Tom Rost @ Class D Audio, asked if would post the following:
" We also have had several questions from those I think are from the forum. You might want to mention on the forum that a few people that contacted us, their emails bounced back to me so you might want to mention for them to make sure they type their email address correctly and also provide a phone number. Yes, we're kind of busy now, but doing our best to keep up. For our 2 channel amps it's taking 2 to 3 days to ship and monoblocks a few extra days."
FYI.
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They used USPS Priority Mail, so whatever you might expect from southern California to your location should be a good estimate.
They were responsive to e-mail when I was ordering: sales@classdaudio.com
I chose UPS shipping which should be 5 days from Cali.to NY. Im hoping to have it by the 22nd because I hava a small gatheringg happening.
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Will the Mini GaN 5s accept small spades? The way the binding posts are stacked make it look like the top one is blocked since most load from the bottom.
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Charles Xavier - in addition to NewZoo's info, Tom Rost @ Class D Audio, asked if would post the following:
" We also have had several questions from those I think are from the forum. You might want to mention on the forum that a few people that contacted us, their emails bounced back to me so you might want to mention for them to make sure they type their email address correctly and also provide a phone number. Yes, we're kind of busy now, but doing our best to keep up. For our 2 channel amps it's taking 2 to 3 days to ship and monoblocks a few extra days."
FYI.
Just spoke with them. Hopefully it will ship tommorow
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Lazbisme - I've been using the Freya+ for about a month with the MiniGan 5's. It's the most musical combination I've heard, and by far, on the M3's. So good in fact that my audio neurosis has quieted almost completely. I might fidget with speaker placement, footers, or... (you know how that goes...) But my equipment search is over. My only suggestion with the Freya N, and I suspect you're well aware of this (but I'll note it anyway), is that the tube output is very sensitive to tube quality. I demonstrated this when originally installing cheap Chinese tubes that came with Cary amps I owned some years ago. The Freya sounded thin, bleached, and strident particularly on loud upper frequencies. Replacing the Chinese tubes with uber-quality NOS n7's magically transformed the Freya into all I could ask for musically. Use the best tubes you can. I think you'll find you've got a winning combination. But let us know.
Essentially very similar combination with great success here as well. Freya+ using a full compliment of ANOS 6SN7's into a Mini GaN3. Also have an XLR cable on the way to compare to my current single ended hook-up in this set-up. Although I still have three tube amp in house, the Mini Gan still makes for a nice addition and an interesting change of pace sonically.
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Good news/bad news on the remote 12v on-off setup for the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks.
Good news is that it works. Bad news is that it negatively affects the sound. Resolution and soundstage are reduced. Things sound overly smoothed, as if someone took fine sandpaper to an LP and polished away the grooves. It was disconcerting, and I am glad things are back to their rich, mesmerizing detail and openness with the 12v trigger cables removed.
The 12v trigger is not a trigger: it requires a constant 12v to keep the amps on. It's not just an instantaneous 12v signal, so it introduces persistent DC power into the amp while playing. It appears that this is enough to audibly affect things, at least with a speaker as open and resolving as the M3 Sapphires.
This does lead me to wonder about that influence of the main power cables, so I will have to experiment with that down the road. Right now I'm using a matching pair GR Research power cables that were on hand, but I will likely get a second Anticables power cord and us a pair of those since that is what I use with the DAC and Preamp.
For anyone interested to setup remote on-off (my impressions about affect on sound notwithstanding), here is what I bought.
1. I got two AC to 12v DC wall-warts. They are listed and "linear, regulated," and I got the lowest amperage I could find, 0.5 amp. My hope was they would be innocuous.
https://www.jameco.com/z/DDU120050F0980-Jameco-Reliapro-6-Watt-AC-to-DC-Regulated-Linear-Wall-Adapter-12-Volt-0-5-Amp_162996.html
2. The power supplies need a plug adapter to fit the 3.5mm mono hole on the backs of the monoblocks (the standard 12v trigger connection). These adapter fit securely onto the end of the power supply cord, so they work well and do not risk coming loose.
https://www.jameco.com/z/DC2-1-3-5M-Jameco-Valuepro-Male-Plug-Adapter-2-1mm-ID-x-5-5mm-OD-DC-Receptacle-to-3-5mm-Male-Plug_2236682.html
3. I got a Y-split extension cord to plug the power supplies into to add some overall length and accommodate the bulk of the wall warts.
https://www.amazon.com/DEWENWILS-Extension-Splitter-Polarized-Outlets/dp/B08V8RZJHF/ref=sr_1_4
4. I go a remote controlled AC outlet. It uses a little radio frequency remote (just a burst of RF when pressing the on or off buttons, not persistent RF emission). It works very well, and I can put it to good use for outdoor Christmas lights or something.
https://www.amazon.com/HBN-Wireless-Weatherproof-Grounded-Included/dp/B07WX2NBWR/ref=sr_1_5
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Dang, this thwarts my idea of using my TV’s 5v USB-A input as the trigger. Maybe I’ll just have to train my 4 yo son to use the power button.
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Good news/bad news on the remote 12v on-off setup for the Mini GaN 5 monoblocks.
Good news is that it works. Bad news is that it negatively affects the sound. Resolution and soundstage are reduced. Things sound overly smoothed, as if someone took fine sandpaper to an LP and polished away the grooves. It was disconcerting, and I am glad things are back to their rich, mesmerizing detail and openness with the 12v trigger cables removed.
The 12v trigger is not a trigger: it requires a constant 12v to keep the amps on. It's not just an instantaneous 12v signal, so it introduces persistent DC power into the amp while playing. It appears that this is enough to audibly affect things, at least with a speaker as open and resolving as the M3 Sapphires.
This does lead me to wonder about that influence of the main power cables, so I will have to experiment with that down the road. Right now I'm using a matching pair GR Research power cables that were on hand, but I will likely get a second Anticables power cord and us a pair of those since that is what I use with the DAC and Preamp.
For anyone interested to setup remote on-off (my impressions about affect on sound notwithstanding), here is what I bought.
1. I got two AC to 12v DC wall-warts. They are listed and "linear, regulated," and I got the lowest amperage I could find, 0.5 amp. My hope was they would be innocuous.
https://www.jameco.com/z/DDU120050F0980-Jameco-Reliapro-6-Watt-AC-to-DC-Regulated-Linear-Wall-Adapter-12-Volt-0-5-Amp_162996.html
2. The power supplies need a plug adapter to fit the 3.5mm mono hole on the backs of the monoblocks (the standard 12v trigger connection). These adapter fit securely onto the end of the power supply cord, so they work well and do not risk coming loose.
https://www.jameco.com/z/DC2-1-3-5M-Jameco-Valuepro-Male-Plug-Adapter-2-1mm-ID-x-5-5mm-OD-DC-Receptacle-to-3-5mm-Male-Plug_2236682.html
3. I got a Y-split extension cord to plug the power supplies into to add some overall length and accommodate the bulk of the wall warts.
https://www.amazon.com/DEWENWILS-Extension-Splitter-Polarized-Outlets/dp/B08V8RZJHF/ref=sr_1_4
4. I go a remote controlled AC outlet. It uses a little radio frequency remote (just a burst of RF when pressing the on or off buttons, not persistent RF emission). It works very well, and I can put it to good use for outdoor Christmas lights or something.
https://www.amazon.com/HBN-Wireless-Weatherproof-Grounded-Included/dp/B07WX2NBWR/ref=sr_1_5
Hmmm... I just realized my BS Node has a trigger out. I will have to try it when the amp comes
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That should work. The 12v trigger seems to be a standard. However, I've never seen a specification for it. I would be curious to know if there is a minimum (or maximum) amperage expected for the 12v. Maybe it's 0.1 or 0.01 amps and 0.5 amps is too much (even if it seems minimal).
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….Also have an XLR cable on the way to compare to my current single ended hook-up in this set-up….
Let us know if you hear an improvement with the XLR cables. Some gear with true balanced circuits tend to sound better with XLRs in the chain. I experienced a nice improvement with the PS Audio gear that I had.
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Credit card cycle reset today, so I just placed my order.
Amps I will be able to compare with include the Folsom EC7293 DIY amp and the Odyssey Kismet stereo.
The rest of the system chain includes:
Buffalo BS-GS2016 network switch powered by Uptone Audio LPS 1.2 power supply rather than internal switching supply
Sonore UltraRendu digital endpoint powered by Uptone Audio LPS 1.2 power supply
dB Tranquility SE DAC with full upgrades as of 2018 including Jupiter copper output caps
Don Sachs preamp with Miflex/Duelund bypass or VH Audio ODAM/Duelund bypass output caps
Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers with internally soldered connections instead of the stock clip-ons and Miflex cap/Duelund bypass caps on the tweeter
Cerious Tech Matrix speaker cables and power cables with Furutech NCF connectors throughout
Zenwave D3 IC's with KLEI Absolute Harmony connectors rather than WBT's
Core Power Tech Equi=Core balanced power transformer as power conditioner (with all Furutech NCF inlet and outlets)
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I’m a late comer but have consumed most of this with interest the past few daze. Looking for a desktop amp the form factor drew me in, but the conversation and conversions have been most compelling.
My main system has PS Audio M1200s feeding M4s so there’s now that interest also. Not that I would replace the M1200s but it might be interesting to compare.
I do want to ask one question about peoples experience but have to reintroduce ASR to do so. Assuming it’s not related to undefined defects in the sample unit, the frequency response plot published in the review indicates very different 4 and 8 ohm responses. I’m curious how these might affect perception. It may be particularly relevant to M v X owners but obviously carries over. My desktop speakers are 8 ohm.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245818)
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Am I interpreting this correctly In that the 8ohm response is much better than the 4 Ohm? If not, please help me understand. If so then it reasons this is much better with the 8 Ohm X3/X5 than the 4 Ohm X4.
TIA
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IF this is an accurate graph, and that’s a big if, then you need to look at your speaker’s impedance in the upper treble frequencies. Even a nominal 4 ohm speaker often will have an impedance in upper treble frequencies that is 8 ohms or higher.
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Will the Mini GaN 5s accept small spades? The way the binding posts are stacked make it look like the top one is blocked since most load from the bottom.
Bump
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I'm using medium size spades and they barely work but they do work.
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My stereo amp just shipped. And I’m using heavy/stiff Cerious Matrix SCs with largish spades. Will report back if that’s a problem for me.
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NewZoo - I know you were really into the newer monoblocks from Van Alstine. How do you compare the ganfets to those?
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NewZoo - I know you were really into the newer monoblocks from Van Alstine. How do you compare the ganfets to those?
I've never heard monoblocks from Van Alstine. I had one Van Alstine amp almost a decade ago, a stereo solid state amp (FetValve 300 or something like that). It was screechingly bright, and I returned it within the 30-day trial period. I wouldn't know how any of their current amps sound.
Regarding the plot from Audio Science Review, they had trouble turning on the amp. Something in their setup was tripping the fault detection. Normally a reviewer would troubleshoot with a manufacturer, but the amp was apparently loaned from a forum participant and they went ahead and published measurements with obvious issues in their setup.
The M3 Sapphires are about 3.8 Ohm down in the the 50 Hz range if I recall correctly, so even if the Mini GaN 5 is down 1.7 dB at 20 kHz into a 4 Ohm load that would be invisible using the Sapphires. They are closer to 8 Ohms at 20 kHz (if I recall the plot).
Does anyone have an impedance plot for the X4s? I can't recall seeing one, but I had always though the X4s were similar. The Beyma AMT drivers are 8 Ohms (the ones I've seen specs for), so I assumed that the passive crossover in the X4s were similar to the the Sapphires, with the 4 Ohms being relevant to the bass region.
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[quote author=newzooreview link=topic=183099.msg1927737#msg1927737
Does anyone have an impedance plot for the X4s? I can't recall seeing one, but I had always though the X4s were similar. The Beyma AMT drivers are 8 Ohms (the ones I've seen specs for), so I assumed that the passive crossover in the X4s were similar to the the Sapphires, with the 4 Ohms being relevant to the bass region.
[/quote]
I bet you're correct. This makes sense. I bet my comment above is incorrect in regards to the X4.
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I attempted to compare the Mini GaN5 to my VTV Purifi amp in my main system, but the ultra-cheap binding posts on the GaN5 had holes too small to accept banana plugs (actually the male side of the tube connectors). I can tolerate them on a secondary system, but if the GaN5 was on my main system, I'd rip out those binding posts.
OK, I tried it again this morning and it worked. I had to remove the plastic part from each binding post to get my speaker cables to fit. It's too early on a Sunday morning to crank up the system. Later today, I'll compare the VTV Purifi amp with the GaN5 amp and start a new thread with my impressions.
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At this moment the monoblocks are breaking in and I am not hearing a significant improvement over the stereo version. However that may change with a few more hours on the units of course. Will keep y’all updated with any changes.
morganc, did you conclude your comparison between the stereo version and the monoblocks? (Sorry to ask but that is a valuable insight.)
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I've never heard monoblocks from Van Alstine. I had one Van Alstine amp almost a decade ago, a stereo solid state amp (FetValve 300 or something like that). It was screechingly bright, and I returned it within the 30-day trial period. I wouldn't know how any of their current amps sound.
Sorry - I am mistaking you with another user.
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Sorry - I am mistaking you with another user.
Not yet, still breaking monos and I’ve not had the time but will have time in the next week or so.
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Not yet, still breaking monos and I’ve not had the time but will have time in the next week or so.
Thanks, Morganc...look forward to it.
Out of curiosity, do you already own both types of amplifiers (stereo and mono-pair), or do you somehow still have evaluation time to decide from the manufacturer?
All the best................Mario
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Let us know if you hear an improvement with the XLR cables. Some gear with true balanced circuits tend to sound better with XLRs in the chain. I experienced a nice improvement with the PS Audio gear that I had.
My brief experiment with an XLR IC vs. single ended IC feeding the Mini GaN 3.....if you have a single ended IC you're happy with in this combination, I'd leave well enough alone. The difference at least here using the Freya+ doesn't seem to favor one over the other. But as you note, this may vary with a different pre-amp in the equation. So in the end, YMMV.
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My brief experiment with an XLR IC vs. single ended IC feeding the Mini GaN 3.....if you have a single ended IC you're happy with in this combination, I'd leave well enough alone. The difference at least here using the Freya+ doesn't seem to favor one over the other. But as you note, this may vary with a different pre-amp in the equation. So in the end, YMMV.
Thanks for the update.
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Daryl Z - you are exactly correct. The point of this thread is to argue for the superiority of GanFets over MOSFETS re: music reproduction. To that end: Title of the thread? check. Numerous references throughout to GanFets as opposed to MOSFETS? check. Technical distinctions (switching frequency, slew rate, replication of square wave) noted detailing the superiority of GanFets over MOSFETS? check.
oh well...
The main reason to use GaNFETs seems to be that its a lot easier to control stray parasitics that can cause Radio Frequency Interference (RFI). GaNFETs can switch at some pretty crazy frequencies! We found that we were able to get the radiated noise down so low that its actually lower than some tube amps out there. So all that concern that you hear some people talk about 'switching noise' really doesn't have to be a thing if the designer knows what he's doing.
Beyond that GaNFETs might offer a little bit less deadtime needed, but due to the way they switch on and off, the deadtime isn't needed for the GaNFET so much as it is to allow time for the magnetic field in the output choke to collapse. When it does then and only then can the GaNFET be switched also. Otherwise it can sit there and pay no attention the off state on its gate! So the output choke is a critical bit of the design in a GaNFET amp.
In our amp we found that the non-linearities that cause distortion are caused by the encoding scheme and the deadtime. I can't speak for other amps but in our circuit that results in lower ordered harmonics; the distortion spectra looking a lot like we see in our class A triode OTLs but at a much lower level. Not surprisingly (since the distortion of any amplifier is the amp's 'sonic signature') our class D sounds very similar to our OTLs as a result, the same liquidity in the mids and highs, but easier to hear into the rear of the soundstage owing to the lower distortion (distortion obscures detail after all...).
IMO, class D has vacuum tube power amps on borrowed time.
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Thanks so much for contributing your knowledge to this discussion, Ralph! Very informative!
And while my miniGaN 5 just arrived, I'd love to hear your new GaN amp someday.
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:D tube amps are HISTORY ? That's a bold statement ! I might have to try these. 17 pages and going. :)
KISS seems to really take off here. And new tech. :D
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IMO, class D has vacuum tube power amps on borrowed time.
OK, this is really intriguing for the near future of high-end audio, especially coming from a company whose reputation is built on the backs of tubes.
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OK, this is really intriguing for the near future of high-end audio, especially coming from a company whose reputation is built on the backs of tubes.
I switched to our class D amps about a year and a half ago. I don't miss the tubes at all. Apparently our customers hear what we're hearing as well if the feedback we get is any indication.
I also play in a rock band. I've seen a number of bands that use class D amps (and not the cheap 'modelling' amps) at shows instead of the much heavier Fenders or Marshalls. They can do this because the 'sound' they get comes entirely from the effects pedals they use rather than the amps unlike 50 years ago. Part of the motivation is also that a class D guitar amp might weigh 15 pounds where a Marshall is more like 50 or 60 pounds. That makes a big difference at 1:AM in the morning!
The guitar market has driven the tube market- the reason we have a lot of the fancy tubes like KT150s is because companies like JJ can afford to make small runs of them because the guitar amp companies buy so many of the guitar stalwarts like 6L6s, EL34s and KT88s. As those sales dwindle it will become harder to keep the more exotic stuff going too.
Class D has gotten that good. Here's another prediction that some might see as apocryphal: If you are an amplifier manufacturer and haven't sorted out the class D thing yet you're doing so at your own risk.
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I switched to our class D amps about a year and a half ago. I don't miss the tubes at all. Apparently our customers hear what we're hearing as well if the feedback we get is any indication.
Do you guys plan to introduce higher powered class D amps and do you offer them with black or silver face plates? They look nice, but they remind me of CJ gear with the champagne faceplates.
Thanks
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I switched to our class D amps about a year and a half ago. I don't miss the tubes at all. Apparently our customers hear what we're hearing as well if the feedback we get is any indication.
I also play in a rock band. I've seen a number of bands that use class D amps (and not the cheap 'modelling' amps) at shows instead of the much heavier Fenders or Marshalls. They can do this because the 'sound' they get comes entirely from the effects pedals they use rather than the amps unlike 50 years ago. Part of the motivation is also that a class D guitar amp might weigh 15 pounds where a Marshall is more like 50 or 60 pounds. That makes a big difference at 1:AM in the morning!
The guitar market has driven the tube market- the reason we have a lot of the fancy tubes like KT150s is because companies like JJ can afford to make small runs of them because the guitar amp companies buy so many of the guitar stalwarts like 6L6s, EL34s and KT88s. As those sales dwindle it will become harder to keep the more exotic stuff going too.
Class D has gotten that good. Here's another prediction that some might see as apocryphal: If you are an amplifier manufacturer and haven't sorted out the class D thing yet you're doing so at your own risk.
Having played in an amateur local rock band in my day, I can definitely second your remark about how heavy and exhausting some of the equipment are. Now if we can only find a way to make PA systems tiny.
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Here's another prediction that some might see as apocryphal: If you are an amplifier manufacturer and haven't sorted out the class D thing yet you're doing so at your own risk.
Yeah, it's been a few decades since we've seen substantial innovation in amplifiers. Many of us on this forum have already stated we're not going back to heavy amps with huge transformers. However, I hadn't ruled out tube amps. Perhaps I should.
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Ralph, if your GanFet amp, or I guess any ganfet class d amp were produced in 3 versions… one was with virtually zero distortion, one with low but domination second harmonic and one with third, how would their sounds differ from each other and would the differences be slight nuances or more pronounced.
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WOW!!! Ralph's comments are profound for obvious reasons. And, as I wrote previously, I couldn't agree more. Literally. I haven't run a tube amp since I purchased the MiniGans. The M3's continue to amaze as never before. Ralph is not the only designer/manufacturer who thinks GanFets are the future. And we're only considering sound quality here. But, in truth, there will come a point for every audiophile where, even if that person feels the sound quality of a non-GanFet amp is somehow superior to its GanFet competitor, the delta will become so small as to be overwhelmed by the other meaningful considerations wholly favoring GanFet amps like weight, cost, heat dissipation, AC consumption, and size. Do audiophiles have some obligation to environmental concerns? I know that's a controversial query but for me it's easy to migrate to GanFets and feel good about doing so for more than just sound quality concern. It's comical comparing these little MiniGans at 5 lbs. each to their 100 lb. tube competitors in the same cabinet and which, sadly, sit dormant now. Probably going to sell my tube gear before the word gets out...
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I think the delta is already very small between a good solid state amp and a good tube amp. I’ve gone back and forth between a pair of Allnic Audio A6000 300b monoblocks and Nelson Pass J2, into a number of different speakers, and the differences imparted by the amps are small.
But it’s those SMALL DIFFERENCES that we’ve always paid the big money for in this hobby. I don’t personally see that changing any time soon.
Considering that my Allnic amps weigh almost 6 times as much as the J2, cost around 6 times as much as the J2, require around $4k for a retube, occupy at least 2 times the floor space, require 2 times the investment in cabling, yet sound perhaps only 5% better, one would think it a no brainer to keep the J2 ahead of the big Allnic amps, if one were to have to choose between the two. But it doesn’t work that way, as we all probably know.
Regarding Atma-Sphere amps specifically, I’ve never heard them so I shouldn’t say too much. I do own a H2O S250 ICE based Class D amp that sounds fantastic, powers just about anything, and cost a respectable $4k or so when new. I also own a Lyngdorf TDAi amp, which is superb on many levels. But it ain’t a tube amp and it clearly doesn’t deliver the sonic character of a good tube amp.
From what I’ve read so far, the GalNit amps ain’t tube amps either and they’re no closer to being tube amps than any other solid state, or class D or TDA amps etc.
It surprises me that there’s a conversation even taking place that seems to be promoting the idea that one will replace the other, rather than legitimately coexisting, as they almost certainly will.
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Tubes have their own sound, and that sound can change night and day depending on the tube used and brand, which is why tube lovers love their amps. Solid State as it sonics and they can vary from brighter with hyper detail to more natural and musical sounding with more laid-back detail. Class D has its own sound signature also. So is one superior, only to the owners who make their choice on what they perceive they enjoy more. For anyone to say tube gear is dead is something that's been said from the '70s when big power SS amps hit the market. Will class D amps rule, I doubt it, they will be in the mix because some will not like their sound, as well as some, may. For boomers, class D will offer gear with much less weight and that may well be their attraction more so than sound quality. I would be leary of buying from a self-run company, I just saw a guy who owns a Digital Amplifier Company Cherry amp that failed and he cannot find where to repair it because the company who designed it, the owner Tommy passed away, and is no longer in business. It's a business and whoever makes any type of gear, of course, will tell you it's the best as they should. Let your ears be your guide and your budget.
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Interesting push back. I would however suggest that opinion be informed by actual listening as opposed to reading about. Kind of like judging a souffle by reading about it in a cook book rather than tasting.... Further, concluding that other factors somehow outweigh sonics may be a misinterpretation. The point is that, IF the sonics are comparable, even if different in subtle respects, and that's obviously the listener's subjective conclusion, then other factors hugely favor GanFets which, again, are a subtype of class D. We're NOT talking about MOSFET class d devices. Will there always be listeners who favor the distortion spectra of tubes? Almost certainly. Again, the point is that GanFets have so elevated listening enjoyment that reliance on bias and predisposition ill serve today's audiophile. There will be those, like myself, who have been decades long tube'o'philes, with substantial tube gear and tubes, who are converted to GanFets. But until you've given the technology a fair listen....
One last thing: "leery of buying from a self-run company" What is Spatial Audio?
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I'm reluctant to buy a tube amp (I want a 300b amp) because the best-sounding tubes have become exceedingly expensive. The main advantage of tube gear is tube rolling, but a similar approach can be accomplished in some Class D amps by rolling opamps.
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I've had my Line Magnetic 845 amp sitting unused since 2018, a combination of fears of burning little curious fingers and costs of retubing. The costs of retubing my preamp are substantial enough that I don't see myself getting back to a tube amp anytime soon. Odyssey Kismet stereo amp combined with my tube preamp was satisfying enough, and better in some ways. Then my DIY fully dual mono stereo Folsom amp brought greater clarity, but at the expense of some "analog" character for lack of a better term.
The miniGaN's seem to have several features that would help with matching to a tube preamp. The first is their higher input impedance. 100K is very unusual in the Class D amp realm, and makes matching with tube preamps potentially much more copacetic, since tube preamps commonly have much higher output impedance than solid state. Another is the variable gain settings, which might help further with a wider variation in tube preamp gain. And finally, it has RCA inputs, which most tube preamps are single-ended. Though I think the jury is still out on whether the XLR inputs definitely sound better than the RCAs. I will be testing that at some point.
Aside from the RCA input option, you don't really see these features in other Class D options.
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The main advantage of tubes is whatever one likes about them, be it the sound of a specific tube, tube rolling, the looks, nostalgia, or all of the above. The main advantage of any piece of gear, of anything, is whatever one likes about it; one person can’t quantify or determine or state categorically what it is that gives or will give another pleasure. The class D/GanFet vs tubes debate is moot, as there is no way to quantify people’s tastes and preferences. Any salesperson of any product has too much skin in the game to be taken entirely at his or her word. Not that there aren’t ethical salespeople, ee cummings notwithstanding, but psychology dictates the need of the salesperson to sell is going to color his or her perspective. The same is true for people having made a recent switch (no fanatic like a convert). I’m not trying to be insulting, but bias is real, and saying this is going to supplant or is superior to that in something as nebulous and changeable as audio preference seems beside the point and misleading. I get being excited about a new discovery, especially if one is convinced it really is better, but I don’t think peoples’ best interest are served when the tone starts swelling into hype territory. Time will be the determiner of the future of GanFet and tubes and of everything, not people’s initial enthusiasms. I like tubes. I like solid state. I’d probably like GanFet. I like box and open baffle speakers. I don’t see the need to tout one over the other. I’m as likely as anyone to gush over something I like - my posts on this site are a testament to that - but one’s preferences are just that, not universal principles or necessary outcomes.
Regarding a company being small and owner operated, it is a real concern, and Spatial does fall into that category. It’s a risk I hadn’t contemplated until my X5s went down. I’m lucky in that I live in the city where they’re built. Otherwise, who knows how long I’d have been without fully functioning speakers. I’m not saying that means one shouldn’t do business with newer small companies, but it’s a risk and deserves to be taken into consideration.
I apologize if I offended anyone in this. That was not my intention, as I very much appreciate how civil everyone on this site is. I just felt, once the conversation started bending towards oracular pronouncements on the future of an entire class of audio, that some gentle pushback was merited. So, this is me, gently pushing back.
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:D well I'm close to buying a new amp for sure. Even though we have one huge economic tsunami soon coming. Has anyone tried VTV D's with the tubes ? Is this just more parts and smoke and mirrors for more $$ and not that much sonic benefit compared to these little guys ? I still can't believe I can plug a 5 pound little circuit board in and it sings like a 100 pound old school powerplant sucking amp. I am old and old school,, haha. And do I need mono's is another question going with these little guys as 2 times the $$ of course. Do monos give you more than just headroom ? Would love an amp with glorious midrange. Looking at the PrimaLuna EVO 300 but that's another topic. Those things are built well. Can these little D's give the tube kids you get from the big tubes ? Good lord ,, paradox of choice .. round & round :duh:
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Has anyone tried VTV D's with the tubes ?
I went through this decision a few months ago when I purchased my dual mono VTV amp -- monos or tubes? I chose monos (no tubes) because I had a tube preamp. The problem is -- there aren't a lot of reviews that compare the two options, and the website doesn't provide enough information to help make a decision. There's a dude on YouTube who reviewed the VTV tube buffer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2JeHE-bA_Y&t=567s
What would be interesting is to compare the VTV stereo tube version with the non-tubed mono version.
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I apologize if I offended anyone in this. That was not my intention, as I very much appreciate how civil everyone on this site is. I just felt, once the conversation started bending towards oracular pronouncements on the future of an entire class of audio, that some gentle pushback was merited. So, this is me, gently pushing back.
No need to apologize. This is a fun discussion!
As many others have said, I think Class D amps have arrived which means more audiophiles will try them out. This thread is a testament to that. Once this happens, there will be fewer purchases of tube amps and traditional (i.e., huge and heavy) amps over the next several years. There will be more innovations in Class D technology in the near future and hopefully, prices will stabilize or decrease as a result. Unless tube prices decrease, tube amps may become less appealing. And the big-ass solid-state Class A or A/B amps no longer have any real sonic advantage over their scrawny Class D competitors.
Does anyone know if audiogon or some other entity publishes annual data on the sale of audio gear by class type? It would be nice to have actual data instead of us guessing at market trends.
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The main advantage of tubes is whatever one likes about them, be it the sound of a specific tube, tube rolling, the looks, nostalgia, or all of the above. The main advantage of any piece of gear, of anything, is whatever one likes about it; one person can’t quantify or determine or state categorically what it is that gives or will give another pleasure. The class D/GanFet vs tubes debate is moot, as there is no way to quantify people’s tastes and preferences. Any salesperson of any product has too much skin in the game to be taken entirely at his or her word. Not that there aren’t ethical salespeople, ee cummings notwithstanding, but psychology dictates the need of the salesperson to sell is going to color his or her perspective. The same is true for people having made a recent switch (no fanatic like a convert). I’m not trying to be insulting, but bias is real, and saying this is going to supplant or is superior to that in something as nebulous and changeable as audio preference seems beside the point and misleading. I get being excited about a new discovery, especially if one is convinced it really is better, but I don’t think peoples’ best interest are served when the tone starts swelling into hype territory. Time will be the determiner of the future of GanFet and tubes and of everything, not people’s initial enthusiasms. I like tubes. I like solid state. I’d probably like GanFet. I like box and open baffle speakers. I don’t see the need to tout one over the other. I’m as likely as anyone to gush over something I like - my posts on this site are a testament to that - but one’s preferences are just that, not universal principles or necessary outcomes.
Regarding a company being small and owner operated, it is a real concern, and Spatial does fall into that category. It’s a risk I hadn’t contemplated until my X5s went down. I’m lucky in that I live in the city where they’re built. Otherwise, who knows how long I’d have been without fully functioning speakers. I’m not saying that means one shouldn’t do business with newer small companies, but it’s a risk and deserves to be taken into consideration.
I apologize if I offended anyone in this. That was not my intention, as I very much appreciate how civil everyone on this site is. I just felt, once the conversation started bending towards oracular pronouncements on the future of an entire class of audio, that some gentle pushback was merited. So, this is me, gently pushing back.
JN - I appreciate the gentle pushback. But, I note, quizzically, "fanatic," "hype"? Perhaps no conscious intention to insult - but these are hardly neutral characterizations - one might characterize them as inflammatory. At a minimum, those words invite comment inasmuch as no specific quote is offered supporting the validity of these terms. The impetus of this thread, for those paying attention, has always been to persuade folks to TRY the new technology (for the cost of shipping). Period. Further, as the very first posting in this thread notes, yes, I was biased concerning GanFets. But I was biased against, not in favor of, the technology. Again, clearly stated in the first posting of this thread.
Thus, while it's obvious, also as I've noted several times, that musical preferences are subjective, I find comparisons of technology anything but misleading or ill-serving fellow audiophiles' best interests. I've detailed the equipment I own, my time in this pursuit, etc. I've given reasons for every claim I've made in this thread. I think we've seen in these posts not a single criticism of GanFets by those who have actually listened to them. Several here have purchased GanFet amps. Further, we have at least two designer/manufacturers (Mytek, Atmasphere, and there are others) who seem to now favor GanFets over other technologies even where at least one makes/sells tube gear.
Not certain why the "salesman bias" discussion inasmuch as no person on this thread has identified himself/herself as an audio salesperson selling GanFets. As previously noted, I have nothing to do with Class D Audio or Premium Audio. Also, I sense a misunderstanding when using the word "debate" concerning the circuit topology comparisons. The issue here is whether one is willing to fairly listen to a new technology for the cost of shipping? I "tout" GanFets over tubes because for me, and apparently others on this thread, GanFets are sufficiently pleasing to supplant tubes sonically and that's without any consideration of their other astonishing advantages over any other current circuit topology. If that's a "debate" then so be it. Would you find GanFets superior (however you subjectively evaluate them) to your current gear? Don't know. What I do know is that if you tried GanFets and didn't find'em superior the solution is easy - return'em. Just setting the record straight and truly not insulted. Hell, it's just a hobby albeit a passionate one. If one person, and I think we're already there, finds more listening pleasure with these small, inexpensive, and light revolutionary tools (and that's not hype - if challenged I'm happy to recount why GanFets constitute a revolution in music reproduction) then I've accomplished my goal.
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JN - I appreciate the gentle pushback. But, I note, quizzically, "fanatic," "hype"? Perhaps no conscious intention to insult - but these are hardly neutral characterizations - one might characterize them as inflammatory. At a minimum, those words invite comment inasmuch as no specific quote is offered supporting the validity of these terms. The impetus of this thread, for those paying attention, has always been to persuade folks to TRY the new technology (for the cost of shipping). Period. Further, as the very first posting in this thread notes, yes, I was biased concerning GanFets. But I was biased against, not in favor of, the technology. Again, clearly stated in the first posting of this thread.
Thus, while it's obvious, also as I've noted several times, that musical preferences are subjective, I find comparisons of technology anything but misleading or ill-serving fellow audiophiles' best interests. I've detailed the equipment I own, my time in this pursuit, etc. I've given reasons for every claim I've made in this thread. I think we've seen in these posts not a single criticism of GanFets by those who have actually listened to them. Several here have purchased GanFet amps. Further, we have at least two designer/manufacturers (Mytek, Atmasphere, and there are others) who seem to now favor GanFets over other technologies even where at least one makes/sells tube gear.
Not certain why the "salesman bias" discussion inasmuch as no person on this thread has identified himself/herself as an audio salesperson selling GanFets. As previously noted, I have nothing to do with Class D Audio or Premium Audio. Also, I sense a misunderstanding when using the word "debate" concerning the circuit topology comparisons. The issue here is whether one is willing to fairly listen to a new technology for the cost of shipping? I "tout" GanFets over tubes because for me, and apparently others on this thread, GanFets are sufficiently pleasing to supplant tubes sonically and that's without any consideration of their other astonishing advantages over any other current circuit topology. If that's a "debate" then so be it. Would you find GanFets superior (however you subjectively evaluate them) to your current gear? Don't know. What I do know is that if you tried GanFets and didn't find'em superior the solution is easy - return'em. Just setting the record straight and truly not insulted. Hell, it's just a hobby albeit a passionate one. If one person, and I think we're already there, finds more listening pleasure with these small, inexpensive, and light revolutionary tools (and that's not hype - if challenged I'm happy to recount why GanFets constitute a revolution in music reproduction) then I've accomplished my goal.
Catluck,
First, thanks for the thorough and well-considered reply. I went back and forth as to whether I should use the terms you pointed out. I ended up sticking with them because, while there is some hyperbole in them, there is, as with most hyperbole, some truth, much as what I describe as hype regarding the GanFet amps no doubt has some truth in it. I’ll grant you that hype feels more pejorative than hyperbole, but hype is the child of hyperbole. Up to now, I stayed out of the discussion because, never having heard a GanFet amp in person, I felt I was in no position to offer an opinion. I only entered the fray after Atmasphere made the pronouncement that GanFet is likely to replace tubes, and that manufactures of tube amps who don’t recognize this will find themselves behind the eight ball (I’m paraphrasing, as I don’t have the post in front of me). Atmasphere makes great tube amps and now makes class D GanFet amps and has a literal vested interest in their commercial success. That doesn’t mean he isn’t absolutely sincere in his love of and belief in his product, but it does mean he has a very different sort of skin in the game than does, say, a user of his products or anyone whose living isn’t dependent on them. As for the fanatic reference, I meant it partly tongue in cheek, but also seriously, in that many, after discovering something new, whatever it might be, have a tendency to advocate passionately for that thing. After all, there’s a reason the saying exists. But, again, that doesn’t mean those people are insincere or even inaccurate, but the sheer degree of praise does cause in someone like me, perhaps cynically, a level of caution almost in direct proportion to the enthusiasm. The sheer momentum of unqualified approbation, regarding anything, always gives me an Invasion of the Body Snatchers vibe. This is no doubt as much, if not more, a comment on me as it is on them.
All of that said, you’re absolutely right (as you know) that in the end all you’ve done is say Hey, I love this, it’s awesome, here’s an opportunity for you to try it, too. I have no beef with that whatsoever, which why up to recently all I did was read with interest. As I said earlier, it’s only when the conversation spilled into pronouncements claiming superiority, made by someone with a commercial interest in the success of the product, however sincere he may be, that I felt impelled to raise the specter of bias claiming to be objectivity. Regarding the technology itself, I have nothing to object to, having heard it only through compressed YouTube videos. I’ve heard others I respect speak remarkably highly of GanFet technology. In fact, I almost bought one of Atma-Sphere’s class D amps, but, for no rational reason other than wanting to try them and having liked what I heard, I decided to go with my first tube amp instead. In the interest of fair play and to satisfy my genuine curiosity, I may give the GanFets a try and, who knows, maybe I’ll be a convert. Though it seems maybe not entirely ethical to try them if I have no real intention at the outset of buying them. What do you think?
Anyway, that’s why I decided to speak up and used the language I did. Was it justified? I’m not so sure. I feel like I’m working hard to convince myself, but I think what I’ve mostly done is talk myself into giving the GanFets a try.
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This might be a long shot, but I was thinking about this filling my car up with gas this morning. This has nothing to do with "sound". Do you think manufactures have gotten a heads up from the industry that it's time to go "Green". Electric cars are coming out like never before. These types of amps are 90% more efficient. Tv's are more efficient than years ago. So maybe the audio world is taken a turn that way. I'm on board I think the Gan Fets sound great.
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JN - really appreciate your thoughts. I get where you're coming from. Ultimately, I think I value this civil and exploratory discussion as much as the actual subject matter. So many have posted sincere and thoughtful comments, just like yours. Thank you
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This might be a long shot, but I was thinking about this filling my car up with gas this morning. This has nothing to do with "sound". Do you think manufactures have gotten a heads up from the industry that it's time to go "Green". Electric cars are coming out like never before. These types of amps are 90% more efficient. Tv's are more efficient than years ago. So maybe the audio world is taken a turn that way. I'm on board I think the Gan Fets sound great.
What heads up would the “industry” have given? And what “industry” are you talking about. Manufacturers are the definition of “the industry” for me. Unless maybe you’re talking about journalists and reviewers?
No, I think shifting sales, competitive pressures, cost of goods, and gross and net margins - you know, standard business factors - would be behind any shift in manufacturers. And customers are attracted because the sound is getting better and better for cheaper as Class D tech improves. I agree it’s just a matter of time before it’s just absolutely better on all fronts, and different flavors of input circuits is what largely differentiates house sounds.
Remember, the shift to electric vehicles underway now came about because Tesla came along and proved electric vehicles could not just compete with ICE vehicles, but actually outperform them in most ways except a few. And market demand followed, putting competitive pressure on the rest of the industry who were forced to respond or risk becoming irrelevant in 10-15 years.
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It's been said a hundred times already, but the size and weight of Class D is the prevailing factor, IMO, now that Class D sound is on par with A & A/B. A few years ago, there was a thread on AC that asked the age of members and you guys are really old!!! :lol: There can now be an inverse relationship between age and amp weight.
Also keep in mind that for the past decade or so, the trend in audio has been to go small. It wasn't long ago when music servers were the size of desktop computers, but now some of them are pocket-sized with better sound quality.
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Question;
Does the GaNFet amps, that are the subject of this thread, produce really nice decay with cymbals, pianos, etc.? I love traditional jazz and a nice decay is a must have for me.
Does the GaNFet sound close to or better than the SS class A amps that you’ve heard, as many say class A amps are the pinnacle of the best sound quality. I know the modern day class A/B amps perform well and probably better than some class A amps, but I’m just asking these questions to those that are currently using the GaNFet amps.
Have you guys heard any other GaNFet class D amps, the new PeachTree GaNFet, for example? I don’t hear a lot of buzz about the new Peachtree GaNFet amp? I would assume its all about implementation of the GaNFet technology because I’m not hearing the same praise for other GaNFet amps.
Lastly, have you compared the GaNFet to brands such as; Gryphon, Luxman, or D’Agostino? They are expensive amps and I’m curious how the GanFetz compare to these manufacturers?
I really want to hear from the GaNFet owners as they are qualifying this new amp to be as good as the amps that they’ve had or currently have.
Thanks!
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Does the GaNFet amps, that are the subject of this thread, produce really nice decay with cymbals, pianos, etc.? I love traditional jazz and a nice decay is a must have for me.
In my system, yes. I posted comments earlier in the thread comparing the Class D Audio MiniGaN 5 monoblocks to the two previous amps in my system, including my Pass Labs XA25 which is Class A: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183099.msg1925860#msg1925860
The MiniGaN 5 Monoblocks reproduce decay and transients and harmonics better than any amp I have had in my system. Using balanced XLR connections from DAC to pre-amp to amp provides a silent background and resolves very deeply into the recording.
I listened extensively to Jazz and piano recordings in evaluating the MiniGaN 5 Monoblocks in my system, and I've never heard things sound so good. In a couple of recordings where I thought there was a faint background hiss, the MiniGaN 5s revealed a brush on a snare deep in the mix. They have been a revelation.
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In my system, yes. I posted comments earlier in the thread comparing the Class D Audio MiniGaN 5 monoblocks to the two previous amps in my system, including my Pass Labs XA25 which is Class A: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183099.msg1925860#msg1925860
The MiniGaN 5 Monoblocks reproduce decay and transients and harmonics better than any amp I have had in my system. Using balanced XLR connections from DAC to pre-amp to amp provides a silent background and resolves very deeply into the recording.
I listened extensively to Jazz and piano recordings in evaluating the MiniGaN 5 Monoblocks in my system, and I've never heard things sound so good. In a couple of recordings where I thought there was a faint background hiss, the MiniGaN 5s revealed a brush on a snare deep in the mix. They have been a revelation.
Wow, that’s impressive and encouraging for me. I have the Holo Audio Serene KTE preamp on order, to pair with my Spring 3 KTE DAC. I will be ordering the X4s, so I can’t audition any amps yet. Thanks so much for your impressions!
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Remember, the shift to electric vehicles underway now came about because Tesla came along and proved electric vehicles could not just compete with ICE vehicles, but actually outperform them in most ways except a few. And market demand followed, putting competitive pressure on the rest of the industry who were forced to respond or risk becoming irrelevant in 10-15 years.
Although electric cars had been around for 100 years, in the 1990s GM demonstrated the high market demand and technical viability of modern electric cars with the EV1. The problem was that they had to use NiMh batteries in the EV1. Lithium batteries were not yet available at the cost and energy density needed for a useful range. https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4849
By the time Tesla Motors was founded in 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning, battery energy density and major government investments were in hand or on the near horizon. Tesla developed no new battery technology. They buy all of their batteries from Panasonic. They also received a half a billion dollar federal loan (which GM did not) to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, to tweak existing electric motor designs for their needs (since GM was not sharing its patents and trade secrets).
With Tesla's numerous false claims now exposed (e.g., fully autonomous driving, rapid battery pack exchanges, fleets of self-driving taxis, an electric semi truck ready for 2018 delivery etc.), Tesla is likely to go the way of Studebaker as the entire industry is showing that EVs are not rocket science: they are readily made with proven technologies and Tesla has no innovation to keep it competitive unless one counts viral marketing of vaporware. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO9yw9QThzU
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I wasn’t saying Tesla invented anything. But what they proved was that if you put the latest tech together in a sleek design, today’s electric cars don’t require any real sacrifice for the typical driver, and they can be cool too.
And I’m not saying the traditional companies can’t catch up to Tesla either. But Tesla was a threat unless the others didn’t step up to electrics in a big way. That’s all I’m saying. GM did try the EV-1, but then they mothballed it and appeared to give up on electrics until Tesla came along.
And that’s where the analogy to the Class A-A/B and Class D amp dynamic lies here.
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It's been said a hundred times already, but the size and weight of Class D is the prevailing factor, IMO, now that Class D sound is on par with A & A/B. A few years ago, there was a thread on AC that asked the age of members and you guys are really old!!! :lol: There can now be an inverse relationship between age and amp weight.
Also keep in mind that for the past decade or so, the trend in audio has been to go small. It wasn't long ago when music servers were the size of desktop computers, but now some of them are pocket-sized with better sound quality.
Maybe class d manufacturers can add extra weight inside the chassis and a heater of sorts to give the class a guys a sense of heft and worth to their amps. Kinda like how some electric vehicles in years past used to add the sense of a transmission shifting gears even though there wasn’t one. 😄
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Maybe class d manufacturers can add extra weight inside the chassis and a heater of sorts to give the class a guys a sense of heft and worth to their amps. Kinda like how some electric vehicles in years past used to add the sense of a transmission shifting gears even though there wasn’t one. 😄
Hilarious!!
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Has anyone who listened to miniwatts also tried the Orchards? Apologies if it was in the thread - I checked but could not find it.
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Has anyone who listened to miniwatts also tried the Orchards? Apologies if it was in the thread - I checked but could not find it.
I'm on the Orchard tour that should get here in the next month or two I'm guessing.
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catluck tried the Orchards and chose the miniGaN monoblocks
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Noah, as detailed in this thread, I did simultaneously audition both the Class D Minigan 5's and the Orchard Audio Starkrimsions. It's all set out. But in a sentence, the Class D MiniGans had more flesh on the bone. This observation was admitted by Leo, at Orchard , as common among customers who tried the Orchard Starkrimsons and returned them. Leo's advice - add tubes somewhere in the chain. But, like NewZoo, I couldn't be happier with the MiniGans. They transform the M3's.
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Noah, as detailed in this thread, I did simultaneously audition both the Class D Minigan 5's and the Orchard Audio Starkrimsions. It's all set out. But in a sentence, the Class D MiniGans had more flesh on the bone. This observation was admitted by Leo, at Orchard , as common among customers who tried the Orchard Starkrimsons and returned them. Leo's advice - add tubes somewhere in the chain. But, like NewZoo, I couldn't be happier with the MiniGans. They transform the M3's.
Thanks Catluck. With the thread depth and coming in late, I read through the first couple pages and did a site search and could not find it. Thanks for the cliff notes.
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I own the Sapphire M3s...and I had the Orchard Audio Starkcrimson Stereo Utra (Leo's most expensive amp) (not the older, lower powered monos) in my system for the past week. I also had it in my buddies system who has Maggie 3.7i's and both a Parasound Halo A21 and a Sanders Magtech...we compared both to the Stereo Ultra...You can go, to this link and read the comparison by scrolling about half way down the post to my post titled "what flavor do you prefer today?"
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/orchard-audio-starkrimson-stereo-ultra-amp-tour.1148415/page-8
(I have a Belles 22a dual 12au7/mosfet hybrid preamp...my buddy was using a Lyngdorf 2170 integrated, preamp section only and set to neutral)
Meanwhile, here is MY review of the Stereo Ultra in my system with the M3 Sapphires...as you will see, I liked the amp a lot...but I like my current amp a lot even though they sound different:
"I’ve had the Ultra playing in my home system for the past five days alternating with my own amp which is Class a/b, biased to 15watts of class a with 210 watts into 4 ohms, stereo not dual mono and intentionally voiced with 2nd and 3rd harmonics to have bloom, warmth, sweetness which some audiophiles covet and others disdain. If only it were that simple...
After selling the 2Cherry and living with its replacement (Wells Audio) for the past five months, I was pretty sure I had become a ‘class a’ convert. Now, I can honestly say that I could be happy with either the Ultra or the Wells because for some music selections I prefer the Ultra and for other music I prefer the Wells. In the perfect world, one would own both with a set up location that made switching back and forth easy based on the music being played.
Here is an example. I discovered this piano prodigy on Youtube, Luca Sustek, and was memorized by his sound...check him out, but hang in there until at least the 2:20 mark!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD_bspN-RYs
I ordered his CD - Luca Sustek “Nuway” and darned if on half the cuts, I preferred the clarity, detail and slam of the Ultra presentation while on other cuts I preferred the sweetness of the Wells. I’m pretty sure though that the Ultra is the more accurate portrayal of the piano.
Now another CD:
Rush – Presto the first two songs “Show Don’t Tell” and “Chain Lightning”...both amps sound great!!
Ultra – clear, enveloping, and slightly more low end, the sound floats but not as much as the Wells
Wells – a little less clear, slightly different tone, slightly more enveloping
Next Up:
Eric Church – Chief country music with a great beat, strong vocals and beautiful harmonics
Ultra – Clarity and Speed, the attack on the strings is awesome, snare drum and bass clarity, beautiful, big soundstage
Wells – Lush, bigger bass but not as fast or deep, also a big soundstage, strummed strings, beautiful
Alex Fox – Cest La Vie Nylon String Latin Guitar with strong back beat support and no vocals
Ultra – Deep, powerful, clear low end….man, those strings when picked, beautiful
Wells – Deeper low end but a smidge less punch, beautiful tone when the guitar body is tapped
Hamilton Broadway Show – 2 CD set
Two words describe the difference between the amps...the Ultra is crystal clear, you can understand every word….the Wells is more warm, the presentation less intense
Jethro Tull – Original Masters
“Locomotive Breath”...Ultra wins the piano clarity and tone Wells wins the flute and sound stage
“Witches Promise” – Ultra wins the flute and vocals...but the Wells vocals have more body
“Skating Away” – the xylophone on the Ultra is hauntingly beautiful
“Tales From The Woods” – both great but different
“Thick As A Brick” – again, both great but different
We all have our own way of listening to and auditioning new equipment. Not to be presumptuous, I’d like to throw out a suggestion to the remaining people on the “amp travel list”….or to anyone that just pulls the trigger and buys it:
Don’t listen to your current amp for at least a day before the Ultra arrives. Then put the Ultra in your system and listen to it exclusively for 2 or 3 days so that you really get to hear what it can do. Then try some back and forth with your amp and finally a few more days with only the Ultra.
I think there is a pretty good chance that if you bought the Ultra and try this method, you will decide before the 14 days is up that it belongs in your system permanently.
Four things about the Ultra will jump out at you with this method:
The background between notes is completely black and the presentation is CLEAR
It is not bright or harsh
It has really good detail and authority from top to bottom
It does a really good job of defining vocal and instruments location
That was the end of the review....what should I try next?
I really have to give the Atmasphere Class D's a try because Ralph has said that similar to the Ultra, their distortion profile is very, very low...but unlike the Ultra, they do have some 3rd harmonic as the dominant remaining distortion, which if I understand correctly, might just result in clarity plus a little bit of warmth.
Because I was going to review the Ultra, I turned off my subwoofer a week prior to the amps arrival and used my Wells to slightly repositioned the Sapphires an extra 2" out from the rear wall to better tune the low end without the sub...not only don't I need the sub in the system any more...the bottom end tone became even better without it. It's really a shame that Clayton isn't going to be making this speaker in the future...the sound that they can put into my really large listening area is really special!
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Great review and like I've heard and the one thing that came to mind mind also and these Class D's were 7K and up, traditional amps all have more warmth and body, while not as clear or fast. But to my ear with my eyes closed the non class D sounded more real like people playing in the room, while the Class D sounded fast and clean, but did not give you the impression of real people playing in the room, just great reproduction of sound, really it what you would prefer.
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Mr. Big
That is why I suggested listening to only the Ultra for several days by itself...with quick amp switching listening to one track at a time on each amp, it is sometimes obvious that one has more warmth....or one has more clarity. But if you listen to the Ultra for several days...maybe even several weeks....and then put a "warmer" amp back into your system, you may find that you really miss the clarity and speed.
Yes, it is preferences, but it is also what your ear/brain is currently tuned to...that is why I wondered if Ralph's amp might be the somewhere in between amp.
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RonN5 - thanks very much for your detailed and careful observations. Such a PITA to go to the trouble you went to. I'm sure my thanks stands in for all of us reading this thread. Should provide some guidance to readers. It's interesting to note how we audiogeeks value various aspects of presentation. Perhaps the most salient comment to me, notwithstanding that I find your observations consistent with mine insofar as they relate to the GanFet amps (having no experience with the other amps you reference), is your disappointment that SA will no longer manufacture the M3. I find these speakers to be sufficient to vanquish my decades long pursuit of the holy grail "sound." But, to my astonishment, that only happened after inserting GanFets (and using a tube pre-amp). I find myself not just almost disbelieving myself, but also comforted to think (perhaps a transitory illusion) that I might have stepped off the merry-go-round of component(s) switching..... Until, of course....?
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catluck....
My disappointment stems from my feeling that the M3 Sapphire is such a great speaker that it "deserves" to continue to be made. On the other hand, I have a friend with Spatial M3 Tride Masters and he's never found anything he prefers...including the newer Spatials.
I hope Clayton recovers from what ails him and is able to continue practicing his craft as I'm sure that whatever creations come next, they will be great as well.
Some day, I'd like to hear a pair of X3's...but no one nearby "as in 2 hours or so"....seems to have a pair I could audition...you know, just scratch the itch.
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Mr. Big
That is why I suggested listening to only the Ultra for several days by itself...with quick amp switching listening to one track at a time on each amp, it is sometimes obvious that one has more warmth....or one has more clarity. But if you listen to the Ultra for several days...maybe even several weeks....and then put a "warmer" amp back into your system, you may find that you really miss the clarity and speed.
Yes, it is preferences, but it is also what your ear/brain is currently tuned to...that is why I wondered if Ralph's amp might be the somewhere-in-between amp.
I always say audio systems are like cooking a good meal, each of us has preferred spices we like which changes the same dish taste made in a different way.
On top of that changes just one power cord in your system and you can change the sound. So say my amp with 3 different power cords can sound different each highlighting a different area of the presentation and dynamics. My vise is body and weight, along with natural transparency. Anything that takes me to the many current sounding systems, of clean, fast, and highly ultra detail leaving the rest behind is not my cup of tea, and being in audio stores lately, I just shake my head at the sound they are selling. The best advice I got was from a speaker designer, he said when a person speaks to you how to they sound, if they were standing from of you in your audio room how would they sound and how loud they be? One person speaking would have a body to their voice, a chest and throat sound, an acoustic guitar sounds relaxed, not just strings but the body of the instrument, piano sounds have detail, but also, it is a percussive instrument. That has stayed with me for 30 years when I listen to a system. The guy was from a new upstart company called Legacy Audio, Bill's wife was an audiologist who told him how the human ear hears and perceives things and he worked on his designs bearing her insight, which is why Bill's speaker always have sounded musical, and the 2nd thing he told me a speaker has to have a good bottom-end because that impact everything above it and really supports the mids and highs. This is why adding a sub-woofer to a speaker that lacks bottom ends improve the sound so much for the main speaker. Spatial have that good bottom end.
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I own the Sapphire M3s...and I had the Orchard Audio Starkcrimson Stereo Utra (Leo's most expensive amp) (not the older, lower powered monos) in my system for the past week. I also had it in my buddies system who has Maggie 3.7i's and both a Parasound Halo A21 and a Sanders Magtech...we compared both to the Stereo Ultra...You can go, to this link and read the comparison by scrolling about half way down the post to my post titled "what flavor do you prefer today?"...
RonN5 thank you very much for your time in auditioning these amps.
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Jusy an FYI I am selling my LSA GaN 350 amp. It is listed here on the classifieds. It was originally owned by a member of the San Francisco Audiophile Society and used with Spatial speakers and got a great review from the original owner. If you have Spatials this is a great match. It is the best sounding solid state amp I've ever had, but I am a tube guy ultimately. If you want to know more pm me. If it's not appropriate to post this here forgive me and delete the post.
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To AC members...especially with Sapphires or Maggies - I would encourage you to contact Leo and hopefully arrange a trial...I think there is a good chance you will be "taken" with the way the Ultra presents music.
Leo, thank you for letting me in on the tour and for answering my endless questions...not many would do that and it was very much appreciated!
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Still hoping to hear a GaN amp near Sacramento, CA.
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Still hoping to hear a GaN amp near Sacramento, CA.
Join the tour:
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/orchard-audio-starkrimson-stereo-ultra-amp-tour.1148415/page-8
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had a chance to hear the ClassD MiniGan amp in my system thru my M3s. great amp! very very close in sound to my Nord One Ncore amp. the bass thru the minigan may have been a tiny bit stronger. the sound thru the nord may have been a tiny bit more spacious. but any differences were far outweighed by the similarities. probably the 2 best amps i have had in my system. either would make me happy. the performance/price ratio on these is off the charts.
PS the mini is surprisingly tiny physically
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Musicdre - Thanks for weighing in. I couldn't agree more - price/performance off the charts. As noted too many times, that's without considering any of the other remarkable virtues of class D and especially GanFet tech (although you hint at one aspect when mentioning the small size of the MiniGan). BTW, were you using the MiniGan Stereo amp or the monoblocks? I note that Stereophile reviews 2 GanFet amps this month. A tricky business when the profit margin per unit with class D kit collapses in comparison to traditional tech (given how magazine revenue is so dependent on advertising from traditional sources). Will we see brick'n'mortar stores, the few that are left, venturing into class D products? Or, will direct internet sales supplant other sales models? Interesting times.
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had a chance to hear the ClassD MiniGan amp in my system thru my M3s. great amp! very very close in sound to my Nord One Ncore amp. the bass thru the minigan may have been a tiny bit stronger. the sound thru the nord may have been a tiny bit more spacious.
I am curious. How long ago was this comparison? Was it the latest unit/S from CLASS D?
Like Catluck i am also curious to know it it was the Mono Blocks or the Stereo unit.
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I am curious. How long ago was this comparison? Was it the latest unit/S from CLASS D?
Like Catluck i am also curious to know it it was the Mono Blocks or the Stereo unit.
yes CLASSD audio. stereo unit. a couple of weeks ago, but it was not brand new. did not manage to note the exact model of mini gan, if there are more than one stereo model. this one was so tiny that i cant imagine there would be a smaller one.
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It’s been reported on this thread that ClassDAudio implemented an update to their board in the last month or two that supposedly has marginal performance improvements. So you probably didn’t hear the latest board if it wasn’t recently purchased, but I doubt the difference in sound would be major. Catluck started this thread with his enthusiasm over the sound before the new boards came out.
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It’s been reported on this thread that ClassDAudio implemented an update to their board in the last month or two that supposedly has marginal performance improvements. So you probably didn’t hear the latest board if it wasn’t recently purchased, but I doubt the difference in sound would be major. Catluck started this thread with his enthusiasm over the sound before the new boards came out.
yes- the unit i heard was not from the past few months. wonder how one can tell? serial numbers? when companies make changes like this - it would be great if the model designation would reflect that.
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Not sure if there are serial numbers that would help, but I’m sure anyone who bought one could email Tom for clarification. He is quite responsive.
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genjamon - you're correct according to Tom Rost at Class D Audio. When I inquired about the changes from the original board to the new one Tom indicated that "they're very close, with perhaps a bit more detail." There are only two stereo amps, the 3 (120 watts @ 8 ohms) and the 5 (200 watts @ 8 ohms). So, perhaps a significant difference between a stereo MiniGan 3 and monoblocks (300 watts @ 8 ohms). Because I'm set up for monoblocks I didn't audition the stereo versions of the MiniGan. I can say that, while I thought the Bel Canto eRef 600's (class D, MOSFET) were outstanding amps, the MiniGans have a sparkling quality and clarity in the mid's that I never noticed with the BC's (or any other amp, tube or SS, for that matter).
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On my monoblocks the green circuit board labeling is visible through the vents in the case, and the boards appear to be version 5.3
I assume 5 is for MininGaN 5 and 3 is for version 3.
I agree that distinct labeling on the outside would be beneficial. The note from Class D Audio was the new boards provided a bit more power and a bit more detail, but they considered it a tweak rather than a major change. However, I don't know if they are listening with speakers as sensitive as the M3 Sapphires, so perhaps the improvements could be noticeable depending on the system. I don't know.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246473)
New player in the game
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:) payment plans ,,,, haha. Consumerism at its finest. 10,000.00 $$ well wasted. :D
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Charles,
Thanks for the information. I do not understand the purpose of the digital in/out. :scratch:
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Charles,
Thanks for the information. I do not understand the purpose of the digital in/out. :scratch:
Could be to hook a streamer direct similar to Peachtree Gan1. My friend is at CAF and he is going to see if Mytek has one in the room amd report back
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246473)
New player in the game
Nice amps, well built, great design and parts use. Value?, it is what we can afford.
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Nice amps, well built, great design and parts use.
Did you demo them in your system?
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Mr. Big,
"Nice amps, well built, great design and parts use. Value?, it is what we can afford."
Where did you obtain the above info? I can't find any info on these amps other than the minimal sketchy details on Mytek's site. Sadly, it may be a tough decision for anyone considering purchase because there is no trial period or tour of the product. At $5K/monoblock, so $10K/pair, well, they're out of reach for most of us in any event either because we're not able to afford $10K or because we're unwilling to spend that amount given other GanFet options. I think you hint at that notion and I agree. Originally, when beginning this thread I thought one of the great advantages of GanFets was their relatively inexpensive price tag given their remarkable sonic performance. But nothing remarkable about getting superb performance for $10K. Still, with another marque joining the party it does suggest the market is awakening to GanFet's advantages.
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At $5K/monoblock, so $10K/pair, well, they're out of reach for most of us in any event either because we're not able to afford $10K or because we're unwilling to spend that amount given other GanFet options. I think you hint at that notion and I agree. Originally, when beginning this thread I thought one of the great advantages of GanFets was their relatively inexpensive price tag given their remarkable sonic performance. But nothing remarkable about getting superb performance for $10K. Still, with another marque joining the party it does suggest the market is awakening to GanFet's advantages.
zactly! GaNFeT amps seem simple - hard to see what another $8-9 grand added to the price will bring, other than a known maker and possibly a better looking case. that said, value is in the eye of the beholder, and if mytek can sell these at $10k then more power to them. agree that more companies coming to the GaNFet party is not a bad thing, even if their prices are much higher.
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zactly! GaNFeT amps seem simple - hard to see what another $8-9 grand added to the price will bring, other than a known maker and possibly a better-looking case. that said, value is in the eye of the beholder, and if mytek can sell these at $10k then more power to them. agree that more companies coming to the GaNFet party is not a bad thing, even if their prices are much higher.
Being from an electronics back ground there usually is a good reason why a product is marked higher, parts, cost of design, metal work, time spent developing the product, parts purchased on a smaller scale thus higher costs, dealer mark up which is fair, they have to be in business to make money or why be in business as for the manufacture. Our internal cost for employees to the buy the SCD1 was $2,500 so that was the dealer cost.
Then again, like Sony when I worked for them our 5K SCD1 SACD player was built like no other, look inside it was a work of art. A small boutique high-end company without the vast means and buying parts in small quantities to build them would be charging 4-5 times more. To get that quality Esoteric players at 15-25K would be the asking price today. I do think the at a certain point and seeing the insides of some of these units at 20-100K and lot of money starts going into the exterior design, size of the units, over built parts that might not really improve the sound, but look good and cost a lot to justify prices and scale of small amount of sells. Always keep in mind it was we can hear as humans, could your ear hear, but the parts are the best of the best.
Sony cheap car stereos and not their best would easy sell 50,000 units, walkman millions etc. So when you can sell not just in the USA but world wide scale alone allows you to build superior quality at a lower price.
Can you make something good sounding on the cheap, sure, I have done it with my tube preamp, was it built to the quality of the Mark Levinson preamp, hell no, there alion boards alone cost without parts on it cost more than my preamp.
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Being from an electronics back ground…
So you had a chance to examine the amp, even if you didn't hear it in your system?
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Not seen inside but I will. This amp is not released yet but it was at the show. It uses tubes. its input impedance is a low 10K, so preamp matching will be critical. Wish they had it at 50-100Kohms that would have opened up the amount of preamps that could have used with it. Even 20K ohms would have been better, but they are using there own DAC and Preamps in the mix which of course would match the amp ideally. I have been surprised to see folks use a mismatched preamp to their amp. It very important not to do so sonically.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246501)
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Thanks.
Are they saying whether they designed the amp themselves? It would stand to reason since I'm not aware of a GaN amp with a tube in the circuit (vs. the Purifi amps with tubes added.) However, as with the VTV and other tubed non-GaN amps, they could, conceivably, have added the tube to someone else's design. Mytek typically does it's own circuit design, so that is not the obvious route for them, however.
It would be interesting if they would let you look inside. I assume this is at Capitol Audio Fest, so maybe towards the end today they will entertain the idea.
I hope you're enjoying the show. I might have made the trip if Spatial were showing the X4s, but with Clayton working on recovery, which I hope is going smoothly, it seems as if they are not at the show.
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I hope you're enjoying the show. I might have made the trip if Spatial were showing the X4s, but with Clayton working on recovery, which I hope is going smoothly, it seems as if they are not at the show.
I went to the 2022 Capital Audiofest yesterday and had a good time. I wish Clayton was healthy and able to participate in the show, but his health is most important.
They may have had some class D amps there and I just missed them due to the overwhelming showcase of gear. Although Merrill Audio class D amps are expensive, I looked for them and couldn’t find them.
I know the rooms are difficult for the exhibitors to fine tune their gear, but there were some nice systems there. Many vendors were playing the music too low and I just couldn’t hear the system shine as good as they probably could have. However, some vendors were playing the music louder so you could hear the system sing. I do think it’s important to know how a system sounds at low listening levels because sometimes our situation at home may call for lowering the volume. Nice show, but would like to have heard some GaNFet class D amps.
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I went to the 2022 Capital Audiofest yesterday and had a good time. I wish Clayton was healthy and able to participate in the show, but his health is most important.
They may have had some class D amps there and I just missed them due to the overwhelming showcase of gear. Although Merrill Audio class D amps are expensive, I looked for them and couldn’t find them.
I know the rooms are difficult for the exhibitors to fine tune their gear, but there were some nice systems there. Many vendors were playing the music too low and I just couldn’t hear the system shine as good as they probably could have. However, some vendors were playing the music louder so you could hear the system sing. I do think it’s important to know how a system sounds at low listening levels because sometimes our situation at home may call for lowering the volume. Nice show, but would like to have heard some GaNFet class D amps.
You most likely did not hear many GaNfet amps because not many making them from the major hitters and buyers, a small niche market right now. 2nd those who do might not be able to afford the cost of going and setting up. This is not cheap for the vendors to do.
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You most likely did not hear many GaNfet amps because not many making them from the major hitters and buyers, a small niche market right now. 2nd those who do might not be able to afford the cost of going and setting up. This is not cheap for the vendors to do.
I agree 100%…
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It appears the Mytek website has been substantially upgraded in the last day to two to provide a 30 trial period for its GanFet amps (plus a bit more info). The amps remain temporarily out of stock. No photo(s) of product. No mention of tube operation or tube type. An unusual marketing strategy for a new product release? And Mr. Big's point re: importance and ramifications of low input impedance of 10K Ohms cannot be overstated...
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Mr Big
We’re those real tubes… or the “looks like tubes for marketing but not really tubes” tubes?
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Mr Big
We’re those real tubes… or the “looks like tubes for marketing but not really tubes” tubes?
Maybe somewhat like the AGD's where the GaN mosfet is just encased in a glass tube. That's my best guess :scratch:
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Those "tubes" seem awfully bright compared to the window lighting that appears to be hitting the rack.
The line drawings of the amp on the Mytek site don't show tubes sticking out of the top of the amp, and the write-up on the site only references tube-like sound from the amps, not the use of a tube stage in the circuit.
It would be somewhat comical for a $10k amp to have fake tube-looking lamps on the top.
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It would be somewhat comical for a $10k amp to have fake tube-looking lamps on the top.
Comical but true
Mytek Nears the Big Launch of the Empire Streamer DAC and Empire Monoblocks
https://www.stereophile.com/content/mytek-nears-big-launch-empire-dacstreamer-and-empire-monoblocks (https://www.stereophile.com/content/mytek-nears-big-launch-empire-dacstreamer-and-empire-monoblocks)
(https://www.stereophile.com/images/042722-Mytek_Amp-600.jpg)
Submitted by Michal Jurewicz on April 27, 2022 - 6:57pm
"Michal Jurewicz here, I am the chief designer of the new Mytek GanFET monoblocks. We have placed an "imitation tube" which is designed to reinforce the illusion that the amp sounds like a tube amp. The original idea comes from Alberto Guerra at agdproduction.com who created a GanTube (tm) which contains the GanFET output power stage. When I worked on our design our GanFET design with another engineer during the Covid lockdown we were looking at AGD page and scratching our heads why , with a Class D GanFET topology, there was a repeated claim that the circuit sounds like "tube". We were building our own circuits and evaluating them with listening every other day. Then one day I had a revelation: the circuit started sounding like a tube amp, specifically the velvety top and beatiful midrange. Expect for the bass, which is usually problematic in most tube amps, here , the bass was tight and controlled like in a good transistor amp. Well executed GanFET is an amazing technology, you get the best from tube world (top and midrange) and transistor world (tight bass). The imitation tube represents the soul of this amp. Mytek is offering the Empire Monoblocks with two covers: one featuring the tube (which is controllable- can be dimmed, different color) and the second cover is just plain cover for the users who'd rather not have the tube."
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We have placed an "imitation tube" which is designed to reinforce the illusion that the amp sounds like a tube amp. .... The imitation tube represents the soul of this amp. Mytek is offering the Empire Monoblocks with two covers: one featuring the tube (which is controllable- can be dimmed, different color) and the second cover is just plain cover for the users who'd rather not have the tube. [/i]"
hopefully the model with the illusion tube will be the one at the $10k price point, and the model without the tube will cost significantly less.
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"…the second cover is just plain cover for the users who'd rather not have the tube."
Well, ok.
Maybe I should get a little battery-powered tealight and set it on top of my MiniGaN 5s.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246551)
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"…the second cover is just plain cover for the users who'd rather not have the tube."
Well, ok.
Maybe I should get a little battery-powered tealight and set it on top of my MiniGaN 5s.
LOL…
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hopefully the model with the illusion tube will be the one at the $10k price point, and the model without the tube will cost significantly less.
I concur!
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Maybe I should get a little battery-powered tealight and set it on top of my MiniGaN 5s.
Mytek has you covered :lol:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246553)
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Mytek has you covered :lol:
this tube thingy is going to get mytek a lot of attention/publicity. a lot of it will be negative/joke-y, but as the old saying goes "all publicity is good publicity" - it will get them noticed.
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:D sucker born every minute. Good lord this is beyond words. :D
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I might have to go NOS.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246557)
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Shit yeah! Now I know what to ask Santa for next Halloween!
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:D sucker born every minute. Good lord this is beyond words. :D
2BigEars - So with you. I can't believe this schmaltzy sillyness... Just absurd. And BTW, are they really $10K/pair or.... from the Stereophile review noted above,
"Mytek's forthcoming Empire Streamer DAC ($24,995) and Empire GaNFET class-D monoblock amplifier ($9995/each or $19,990/pair)...."
Really? $20K/pair for GanFet amps with fake tubes?? I'm not going to write what I'm really thinking as it would be uncivil... Mytek's site is vague as to whether the price is for 1 amp or 2. And, interestingly, for those who might care, it's noteworthy that the AGD products Michel (owner-designer at Mytek) referred to were reportedly unable to drive Magnepans without severe squaking, even with their fancy-silly circuit-in-a-tube while the far less expensive Orchard Audio, if memory serves, had no issues at all (drove the Maggies "sweetly"). "Good lord..." indeed
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Maybe Spatial should release a new speaker with a fake super-tweeter on top to reveal the upper-most registers.... or???
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I think some integrated tea lights on top would be a nice touch, Catluck. Especially if they could flicker in time with the music.
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Mr Big
We’re those real tubes… or the “looks like tubes for marketing but not really tubes” tubes?
They put the tube there to reflect their feeling that it has a similar sound to a tube amp. It's marketing, I think for fun also if someone would like that look, they will make the amps without the tube also. I know many will be wondering why the cost is when you can buy some for $1,500, but as I said manufacturers charge by what it costs to do research, build quality, and parts so well worth the asking price, then others just overbuilt to justify there asking price. Charge $50,000 for a speaker, amp, or preamp, it better has the look of that price. But sonically it's what we can hear and there is only so much you can hear, so and some point it becomes moot. You can buy Belles amps or you can buy Dan D'Agostino amps. Belles sound really good. But it's not a D'Agostino.
Dan's very good also, but each as its own buyers. Dan's stuff is not marketed to me, I cannot justify spending money like that but there are those buyers out there who can and in enough numbers to keep the company in business. I would not knock the "Mytek's amp till you hear one, and then you could make an informed opinion. I am not a class D man myself but that does not mean I don't respect those who like their sound. Its a hobby that's all it is.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246576)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246575)
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Mr. Big,
Your points are well taken and forced me to reconsider my position. Thank you for that. I should have finished my first cup'o'joe before knee-jerk responding to the Mytek issues noted. I even felt that way while responding... I guess it's the audio pilgrim in me that decries the nature of fake. And when the designer admits the "tube" is not functional.... I appreciate and, even admire, aesthetics in build.. So Agostino's kit, while, like you, is not marketed to me, is lovely and beautifully executed. Nothing fake about it. It goes without saying that Mytek has every right to build/market any product they see fit to. My comments were not directed to its sound quality so no judgment there. And while aesthetics, I suppose, can somehow "inform" sonic perception (Is that true? I'm not certain that's a legitimate/valid statement but perhaps), I think I'm reacting to the combination of high price, admitted inclusion of non-functional (?) circuitry, and the trend to over-building where it has no discernable audio justification (again, if that's true). At some point, is overbuilt kit more a proxy of affluence than love of music? And I admit it's none of my damn business. Ultimately, and again, to each their own (as has been noted, even by me). This is just a hobby. Perhaps a new thread.
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So in regards to the Class D Audio Gan5 amps, has it been determined yet that the stereo amp is just as good as the monoblocks or at least very very close?
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:D good question t2t. We all would love to know. Why spend twice as moocho. :D
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I think we’re waiting on a report back from Morgan, since he has both setups in-house to compare. Last I heard, he didn’t yet have enough hours on the mono’s to do an honest comparison. And he was pretty busy with work, so it sounded like it might take him a while before he could do the definitive test.
But I went ahead and bought a stereo. Tom at Class D Audio says they are easily bridgeable into monos at home, so easy to upgrade to dual monos later if the extra headroom is desired (or if crazy OCD audiophiliacs form a consensus they sound better).
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I think we’re waiting on a report back from Morgan, since he has both setups in-house to compare. Last I heard, he didn’t yet have enough hours on the mono’s to do an honest comparison. And he was pretty busy with work, so it sounded like it might take him a while before he could do the definitive test.
But I went ahead and bought a stereo. Tom at Class D Audio says they are easily bridgeable into monos at home, so easy to upgrade to dual monos later if the extra headroom is desired (or if crazy OCD audiophiliacs form a consensus they sound better).
That’s right Morgan has both. Any early impressions you’d like to share Ben? This is in the same spot the Kismet was in use?
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So in regards to the Class D Audio Gan5 amps, has it been determined yet that the stereo amp is just as good as the monoblocks or at least very very close?
Yes I’ve been lurking while listening and I was just about to A/B the two when life intervened with a much needed surprise Holliday in kauai that sent me back to work in prep of the trip which is in two days. And one of the Monos had a malfunction which was replaced immediately with a brand new unit (Tom has been very nice to work with) and will now need burn in time.
I did briefly put the stereo back in and it’s an older board vs the brand new monos and all I can say is they both sound great. I don’t believe there will be much difference when I do a proper AB as didn’t really notice much at all in my casual listening sessions. However, the stereo was set to the high gain setting and the monos were on the low setting. I do believe they sound best with my pre on the high gain setting but I want them to at least be the same when I AB them.
For anyone on the fence, you’ll likely be just as happy with the stereo as the monos and after I AB mine, I’ll keep one and sell the other which likely will be the monos.
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Thanks morganc. May you have a wonderful trip!
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Mr. Big,
Your points are well taken and forced me to reconsider my position. Thank you for that. I should have finished my first cup'o'joe before knee-jerk responding to the Mytek issues noted. I even felt that way while responding... I guess it's the audio pilgrim in me that decries the nature of fake. And when the designer admits the "tube" is not functional.... I appreciate and, even admire, aesthetics in build.. So Agostino's kit, while, like you, is not marketed to me, is lovely and beautifully executed. Nothing fake about it. It goes without saying that Mytek has every right to build/market any product they see fit to. My comments were not directed to its sound quality so no judgment there. And while aesthetics, I suppose, can somehow "inform" sonic perception (Is that true? I'm not certain that's a legitimate/valid statement but perhaps), I think I'm reacting to the combination of high price, admitted inclusion of non-functional (?) circuitry, and the trend to over-building where it has no discernable audio justification (again, if that's true). At some point, is overbuilt kit more a proxy of affluence than love of music? And I admit it's none of my damn business. Ultimately, and again, to each their own (as has been noted, even by me). This is just a hobby. Perhaps a new thread.
I think what they were saying with their tongue in cheek, was folks who love tubes will love our amp because it sounds more like a tube amp than a stereotipical class D. So you sit there and say wow this sounds good like a tube and there before you is a tube sticking out of the amp. I would guess buyers will buy this amp sans tube..smile!
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Tom at Class D Audio says they are easily bridgeable into monos at home, so easy to upgrade to dual monos later if the extra headroom is desired (or if crazy OCD audiophiliacs form a consensus they sound better).
as spatial owners its mind boggling that someone would need the headroom power from dual mono. but these amps are apparently for use with other speakers too :). and am remaining open to the potential that the dual monos sound better than the stereo for whatever reason or no reason at all :popcorn:.
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That’s right Morgan has both. Any early impressions you’d like to share Ben? This is in the same spot the Kismet was in use?
Same components as the Kismet, but I’ve actually been using a Folsom amp I DIY’d last year. So it’s been a while since the Kismet was in the system. I also moved to DC this summer and live in a row house, so a VERY different listening room than what you’re familiar with from my Tucson place.
I got the amp about ten days ago and the family was gone all last week, so I got about 20 hours on it then. Tom also kindly put about 100 hours on it in their shop before sending to me to give me a head start on break in. But it will only get maybe 2-4 hours a week of use moving forward due to lifestyle changes and shared space now. So it’s gonna be a while before I can say it’s reliably finished settling.
I can say that it was initially very impressive, then started to have some doubts over the next couple days, but was really growing on me more and more toward the latter part of the week. But final conclusions will await comparisons with the Folsom and Kismet - if I ever get there.
One great thing about it is it's completely silent - which is an accomplishment with the high sensitivity Zu ODW's I use. I've always had some hum or noise between my Don Sachs pre and either the Kismet or Folsom amp. Folsom has less for sure, but still there (I still need to keep tweaking the grounding scheme I think, because it's also showing more noise than it should in the TV system right now too). But for the first time in years, I finally don't hear anything at all when the system is on and idling. That reason alone might be enough for me to want to keep it.
Of course, I'm also very curious what the hyper power supply upgrade would do to the Kismet. My amp was manufactured in 2014 or 2015, I think, so the caps are now starting to move beyond top performance (Klaus recommends replacing them after 7 years if you're after top performance). I asked Klaus about the upgrade at CAF this weekend, and he said he'd be waiting on parts until April at this point if I put in the order now. But he cited a more than reasonable dollar amount, so maybe I should put down the deposit and get that process started.
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Of course, I'm also very curious what the hyper power supply upgrade would do to the Kismet. My amp was manufactured in 2014 or 2015, I think, so the caps are now starting to move beyond top performance (Klaus recommends replacing them after 7 years if you're after top performance). I asked Klaus about the upgrade at CAF this weekend, and he said he'd be waiting on parts until April at this point if I put in the order now. But he cited a more than reasonable dollar amount, so maybe I should put down the deposit and get that process started.
I was wondering if you were able to attend CAF. If there’s one regret I have of all the amps I’ve sold it’s the Kismet monos, but they were 70lb behemoths in Stratos cases so a stereo amp would have likely stayed.
As far as GaN amps go the one I’m interested in is the Peachtree GaN 1. If my dac ever hit the skids this would be something I’d consider with its simplicity all in one kinda setup. But the price of the GAN5 stereo has me intrigued.
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A friend of mine is going to lend me a cheapo tube pre-amp and I probably will try a single amp to run in stereo as I can't see needing 200 watts per channel for these X5s. I barely turn up the LTA and get a pretty loud result.
I have realized that I really really like the LTA 40+ integrated but if the sound of this cheapo class D amp works with tubes then I figure I can get a Don Sacks pre-amp and use the class D with it and save several thousands of dollars. I'm all about economic efficiency.
I won't try this for a few weeks as I have my first vacation in a few years coming up.
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Any fence riders like me need a Black Friday push?
https://classdaudio.com/ (https://classdaudio.com/)
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Just saw this GanF Black Friday push:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246914)
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I just bought a Mini GaN 5 thanks to this thread. I'll report back once I have it fully burned in.
Hopefully I can still post here, even though I'm no longer a Spatial owner, since I put my X3's up for sale....
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I just bought a Mini GaN 5 thanks to this thread. I'll report back once I have it fully burned in.
Hopefully I can still post here, even though I'm no longer a Spatial owner, since I put my X3's up for sale....
Looking forward to your feedback. With what did you replace your x3?
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I just bought a Mini GaN 5 thanks to this thread. I'll report back once I have it fully burned in.
Hopefully I can still post here, even though I'm no longer a Spatial owner, since I put my X3's up for sale....
Please stay and post here.
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Looking forward to your feedback. With what did you replace your x3?
The X3's are still for sale, I have an ad for them in the Trading Post here on AC.
The reason I'm selling them is a bit involved. Let me try to explain:
I used to only have 1 system, in the basement, that was both music and HT. I had the GR Research Super 7's down there. When I built out my 2nd system upstairs, I got the X3's as my 'backup' speakers.
After setting up the 'backup system' I found I was listening to music on the '2nd system' about 90% of the time. So I pulled the Super 7's upstairs and moved the X3's downstairs.
I would have kept the X3's but they just didn't have enough bass extension in the HT setup. They go to 30hz strong then drop off a cliff. They get to 30hz with power and finesse both. For music that's perfectly fine but for HT I needed more depth.
So I bought these:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183572.0
I didn't fall out of love with the X3's, they are great speakers. Really great speakers. But just didn't fit my new application as well as the new speakers do.
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Welcome to the GaN club. Is the new amp intended for the upstairs or downstairs system?
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Speaking of the GaN club, I've ordered the Mini GaN 5 and will probably have it in about 2 weeks. In the meantime, I found a used Schiit Freya at a good price and am going to roll the gain tubes with Sylvanias. I'm following Catluck's lead on this (although he uses different tubes in the gain) so I'm going to give it as good a chance as I can.
I've been listening a bunch to my X5s with the LTA z40+ and I keep thinking how good it sounds to me. I'm anxious to see if the Mini GaN 5 plus the Freya beats it.
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Daryl Z - congrats on your purchases. I can only say that now, going on 3 months of MiniGans (and two months of Freya+) I've never been happier, with the presentation I'm now enjoying, in 45 years of musical pursuit. I know, and appreciate, that means nothing to anyone else. But to a dyed-in-the-wool tube guy, it's shocking to me. I still can't get over the purity of tone/timbre, clarity, and killer bass in comparison to any other amps I've run. Hope it works out for you.
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Well shoot...if anyone is looking to unload a GaN 3 or GaN 5 please let me know :popcorn:
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:D well this thread just cost me a cool grand ! Haha. Thanks guys. 100 pounder swap-out to a 5 pounder. I really have a hard time with that. All notions confirmed in a couple weeks .. should be very interesting indeed. :D
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2bigears, plug it in and leave it on. Give it a chance to break in as much as you can before trial period is up. It runs barely warm. I'm betting you keep it!
Joe
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:D thanks. It was a month long decide. Flipped and flopped. I will leave it on for a few weeks and then let it rip. I have a tube VAC pre to mate with it. I'm still freaked that 5 pounds can equal 100. Time will tell.
Ships out on Monday so maybe next late week I can plug and play. Was told the monos really don't make that much difference. That's good enough for me. :D
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For what it's worth, I found turning the MiniGaN 5 Monos off for a couple of hours then back on (once in the morning and once in the evening) advanced the break-in more than leaving them on constantly.
Theoretically the off time allows the capacitors to discharge and then reform when turned back on, helping them settle in to stable behavior.
They did change over the first 200 hours, with minor but definite improvements from 200-300 hours.
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:D good thinking. Cycle the little parts with power and heating. Thanks for the good advice. 15 day shifts turning off at night. Love this place. Smart informed peeps. But over the years good lord has it cost ! Ha. :D
Can't put a price on glorious tunes one loves. :D
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MiniGan 5 is here. Let the burn in begin.
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:D how are you gonna burn that puppy in if I may ask ? My mailbox should have one in a few days too. You get 15 day return. Should be 30 wouldn't you think ? :D
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At this price point, I give a pass on the short return period - couldn’t expect any. And while burn in reportedly takes north of 200 hours before they fully open up, if you don’t see enough potential after a couple weeks, it’s probably best just to send them back. I bought mine knowing I wouldn’t get enough time on it in 15 days to know the full story. I had/have interest in possibility of it becoming my primary amp, but also with interest in becoming a solid TV system amp. If after initial impressions it didn’t satisfy at least that TV second purpose, it was heading back within the 15 days. Well, it passed that test, but jury is still out on the primary system test. Will take a good several months before that test is ready, given other changes in the big rig and my slowness in putting hours on it.
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:D how are you gonna burn that puppy in if I may ask ? My mailbox should have one in a few days too. You get 15 day return. Should be 30 wouldn't you think ? :D
Tool during the day, pink noise at night.
I bought mine used, someone had bought 2 to use in their system and found that only 1 was needed. Lucky me!
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Tool during the day, pink noise at night.
liking this slogan!
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From Tyson, "I bought mine used, someone had bought 2 to use in their system and found that only 1 was needed. Lucky me!"
Which raises an interesting point and a new thread. Do monoblocks outperform stereo amps when considering soundstage presentation (if not headroom issues)? Note John Atkinson's comment in the Jan., 2023 issue of Stereophile when reviewing the Schiit Audio Tyr amplifier (as monoblocks),
"Monoblock amplifiers always excel at reproducing recorded soundstages... A shiver ran down my spine: the Tyrs excelled at reproducing recorded space..."
I've used monoblocks for decades, and for, among others, the reason Atkinson notes. Still, I wonder. Certainly, having monoblocks maximizes channel separation which, arguably, optimizes soundstage. But, perhaps, I drank the cool-aid. Oh well, no matter - I couldn't be happier with the sound I'm hearing now.
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I've owned mono amps and stereo amps, and both can image equally well providing the front-end preamp has that ability in its reproduction. The preamp is the traffic cop of one's system.
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I've owned mono amps and stereo amps, and both can image equally well providing the front-end preamp has that ability in its reproduction. The preamp is the traffic cop of one's system.
there have been a few actual dual mono "monoblock" preamps over the years. but very few i think.
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:D I asked Tom at Class D if it made a big or even smaller sound gain if two was better than one. I bought 1 ..... less hassle and $$ . Should get my little 5 pounder in a few days. Will it compete with the 100 pounder is gonna be very interesting. Hard for this old schooler to wrap the gray matter around this possibility. :D
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there have been a few actual dual mono "monoblock" preamps over the years. but very few i think.
and right on cue, here is a listing for a true dual mono preamp. no affiliation.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649927872-bedini-6677-dual-monoblock-class-a-preamplifier/
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Bedini made some great gear I see 2-class A power amps for sale by the same seller. Killer amps and cheap!
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Tool during the day, pink noise at night.
I bought mine used, someone had bought 2 to use in their system and found that only 1 was needed. Lucky me!
Any updates or is it Tool all day, Pink all night?
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Any updates or is it Tool all day, Pink all night?
Have about 85 hours on them. So far, burn in has been .... rough.
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Have about 85 hours on them. So far, burn in has been .... rough.
Are they connected by XLR or unbalanced inputs?
Mine definitely sounded hyped and vivid in the early stages, not as natural and open as they do now. Will be interesting to see how things progress with your system.
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:D Tyson please don't tell me these amps are shit ! Just bought one. Your speakers are king of the hill with 1k dollar amp,,,, could that be the problem ? :D
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:D Tyson please don't tell me these amps are shit ! Just bought one. Your speakers are king of the hill with 1k dollar amp,,,, could that be the problem ? :D
I've learned to never judge any hifi gear before the 200 hour mark. Most of the time, gear will go from bright and irritating, then to veiled and dark sounding, then to overdamped, then back to bright and irritating and a whole bunch of other variations of that. The MiniGan's are no exception.
On a positive note, even during burn in I can tell that their level of resolution, their soundstaging and their bass power/control are very good.
Are they connected by XLR or unbalanced inputs?
Mine definitely sounded hyped and vivid in the early stages, not as natural and open as they do now. Will be interesting to see how things progress with your system.
RCA inputs.
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:D ok, thanks. My heart started beating again. Think I'll run it continuously with the occasional cool down. 200 and 300 hours seems long for these little amps. Such small boards. :D
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I've learned to never judge any hifi gear before the 200 hour mark. Most of the time, gear will go from bright and irritating, then to veiled and dark sounding, then to overdamped, then back to bright and irritating and a whole bunch of other variations of that. The MiniGan's are no exception.
On a positive note, even during burn in I can tell that their level of resolution, their soundstaging and their bass power/control are very good.
RCA inputs.
Good Luck!
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Well, I couldn't stand the hash and spitiness I was hearing with the stock MiniGan 5. Looking under the hood it's clear they used mediocre quality parts for the binding posts, RCA connectors and internal wiring. So, time for surgery!
Spent the afternoon with a drill bit, a soldering iron and some top quality parts. Here's the progression of the work:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247560)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247559)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247558)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247557)
Was the result worth the effort? Hell yeah. Tonal beauty is no longer a glaring weakness. It will never be a tube amp, but at least there's no hash or spitiness getting in the way of the amps other, considerable strengths.
Here's a list of parts I used. Mostly I picked things that I know have a softer/warmer sound, to try to get the amp to be better balanced:
ETI Copper RCA connectors
ETI Copper binding posts
VH Audio OCC hookup wire (for the speaker wiring)
Nemak pure silver hand polished hookup wire (for the input/RCA wiring)
A few things to note (if you want to try this yourself). First, the ETI copper binding posts are too thick for the existing holes in the case, so you'll need to enlarge the holes with a case bit. Second, the ETI Copper binding posts are too long to fit without using some silicone spacers (I picked up some at the hardware store). Finally, to get to all the solder points you need to remove the main circuit board. There's 4 screws on the corners of the board. And the RCA connectors and the XLR connectors have to be unscrewed from the back of the case, because the board is attached to those connectors.
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:) nice,, you may have started something. Nothing like a mod or two. :D
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One more advantage of buying used - no concerns about voiding the warranty.
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One more advantage of buying used - no concerns about voiding the warranty.
this point is brilliant!
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Well, I couldn't stand the hash and spitiness I was hearing with the stock MiniGan 5. Looking under the hood it's clear they used mediocre quality parts for the binding posts, RCA connectors and internal wiring.
Was the result worth the effort? Hell yeah.
Yeah, those binding posts, in particular, are trash. I don't doubt that you're getting better sound. Seems like a worthwhile mod.
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Tyson, I can't picture (or aurally imagine) what you mean by "spitiness." Can you elaborate?
Also, now that you've modded your Mini GaN 5, what are your thoughts or are you still breaking it in (and I guess that "breaking it in" has 2 meanings now)?
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From Tyson, "Well, I couldn't stand the hash and spitiness I was hearing with the stock MiniGan 5...."
Another interesting issue raised inasmuch as, with the M3's, I find the MiniGans present a tonal/timbral purity not present with tubes (6550's or 845's). Hash is a quality or property that I've always thought couldn't be heard directly but, rather, the absence of hash is what's "heard" and perceived as a purer tone/timbre. Is that what you mean Tyson? It seems, always and obviously, to my ears, that while they may lack the last degree of harmonic bloom present with tubes the MiniGans sound more natural, i.e., trumpet, piano, sax, just sound more like the "real" thing.
Ironically, using MiniGans upstairs with Merlin VSM's, I did hear a sporadic glaring leading edge, particularly on human voice, which bothered me alot. This went on for about the first month or so of listening. Then this glare began to moderate and now (going on 3 months of leaving the units on about 4 hrs/day) to the point of nearly disappearing. But the shimmer of guitar strings, chewy fiddle tone, tight/muscular bass and extraordinary detail (see-through quality of the soundstage) have elevated the sound of the Merlins relative to any of the tubed monoblocks I was using (300B's, KT88's, 6c33's). And, like downstairs, while they seem to lack the last degree of harmonic bloom instruments sound more natural. A conundrum?
Is the harmonic bloom vs. naturalness of instrument/human voices a "real" issue? Well we all know that harmonics can be engineered into circuits. I suspect we've all heard tube gear we consider "slow" or "syrupy," etc. So I must conclude that harmonic embellishment does not, in and of itself, necessarily add any verisimilitude to instrumental voices. It's an art thing. Add to the mix, differing individual sensitivity in hearing, especially relative to frequencies in the 1.5K - 4K range, and it's not surprising to me that one man's delight is another man's disgust. Thus, the joy in having so many amplifier solutions.
Because I'm concerned about voiding their warranty, I'm precluded from undertaking Tyson's mods which I would otherwise try in a heartbeat. Perhaps in about 2 yrs. 9 months... I guess I'll just have to continue enjoying the music. I'll find a way to get through it.
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Yes, buying used alleviates the worry about voiding the warrantee. Also, I mod every single amp/DAC/Preamp/speaker that comes in to my house, because I can always see that there's usually some parts that are low quality that are directly in the signal path. My goal with the mods is to have the highest possible quality parts in the signal path.
Re: harshness and spittiness, I mean that when a singer would hit an ssssss or a shhhh sound, it would overly pronounced and harsh. Which is something I am very sensitive to and one of the main reasons I own tube amps, because they are inherently less sharp/aggressive in this area.
Maybe I should have waited a bit longer before doing the mod, but the amp was kind of driving me crazy. And I knew from previous amps that the parts in there would ALWAYS be holding back what the amp was ultimately capable of.
I will say this, the mods made an immediate and very clear improvement. It doesn't have 'bloom' like some tube amps, but it now has a pleasing tonal balance.
The real strength of the amp (so far) is just it's sheer amount of resolution. I've had other amps in the past that were very high resolution but those other amps were also thin and somewhat unmusical.
After the mods, the MiniGan is very high resolution and NOT thin and unmusical. Which is a pretty neat trick.
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Glad you're getting the Class D amps to sound better. Low cost so you can upgrade all the parts as needed. Good to have your skills. Myself, Mark Levinson, McIntosh, Luxman, and Pass. Both tubes and solid state. Superb built quality and known sonics. But they do cost more. But I keep my stuff for 7-10 years so in the long run good value.
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:D hi all. Hay Tyson,, that mod looks like easy enough for a home handyman. Where did you get the parts ? I just might do that myself. Thanks .... :D
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Glad you're getting the Class D amps to sound better. Low cost so you can upgrade all the parts as needed. Good to have your skills. Myself, Mark Levinson, McIntosh, Luxman, and Pass. Both tubes and solid state. Superb built quality and known sonics. But they do cost more. But I keep my stuff for 7-10 years so in the long run good value.
I'm a huge fan of both Luxman and Pass. In fact, one of the few SS amps I've owned long term is a Pass design from First Watt called the Burning Amp 3. A friend owns the SIT 3 and that's another one I could easily own. And yet another/different friend owns the XA30 and it's incredible. Any of these I can live with long term.
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:D hi all. Hay Tyson,, that mod looks like easy enough for a home handyman. Where did you get the parts ? I just might do that myself. Thanks .... :D
Sure thing, here's the links for the parts:
VH Hookup Wire - https://www.vhaudio.com/unicrystal-occ-copper-wire.html - get the 18ga for the speaker wire and 24ga for the RCA wire.
ETI Cable Pod (Speaker Binding Posts) - https://www.vhaudio.com/connectors-speaker.html#EichmannCablePod
ETI Copper RCA Connector - https://www.vhaudio.com/eti-fr-tc07-rca-socket.html
Case bit (to enlarge the speaker binding post holes) - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YK581VG/ref=emc_b_5_i
Nylon Spacers - I bought these at my local Ace Hardware. They were necessary because the ETI Cable Pod speaker binding posts were too long. I just took one of the binding posts into Ace and measured various nylon spacers until I found one that fit. I needed 12 in total (3 per binding post).
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I have the Mini GaN 3, and yes, it does possess an ungiving nature of sorts. On well recorded material it is quite exceptional. However on less than perfect recordings, it can become fatiguing and somewhat irritating. Since many of my CD's fall into this "less than perfect" category, it's only a matter of time before I grow impatient and one of my tube amps ends up back in system. As for now, I'm going to be patient and implement "catluck's" approach. With that said, I thank Tyson for his approach as well. It may come to that.
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Since Class D Audio is a small company, I wonder if you could just send them the better parts and have them build it for you with the better parts. In fact I think someone on this thread already did something like that.
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someone on this thread already did something like that.
yes, with WBT binding posts. I got my monoblocks with the WBT post option offered on the website.
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Others have also noted that the XLR input jacks can be preferable to the RCA's on these amps - even with singled ended IC's with RCA connectors. Just using some Neutrik XLR/RCA adapters into the XLR inputs appears to offer benefits. Maybe that has to do with the RCA input jack quality relative to the XLR input jacks, or maybe something else. I find it hard to believe the quality of the stock RCA jacks is that bad that inserting a low cost Neutrik adapter improves it substantially, but who knows.
Before I ordered, I confirmed with Tom that he does use copper jacks and binding posts on these. He said he doesn't cut corners on quality of the components. Of course, the proof is always in the listening. While I do wonder if Catluck is right that enough break-in could do the trick on these, but Mick has had his Gan 3 for a couple years already, so maybe YMMV.
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:D thanks Tyson. Thanks very much. I'm in Canada so I can look on Parts Connextion ,,,, I do wonder if they have the good parts ? They should ! I'm hoping I didn't waste a k note. I would have ordered those little tube amps with a two year wait,, but I can't wait that long. It's to bad they can't ramp up production. I can't believe there is such a lineup of people waiting for those ,,,, unreal. :D
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Others have also noted that the XLR input jacks can be preferable to the RCA's on these amps - even with singled ended IC's with RCA connectors. Just using some Neutrik XLR/RCA adapters into the XLR inputs appears to offer benefits. Maybe that has to do with the RCA input jack quality relative to the XLR input jacks, or maybe something else. I find it hard to believe the quality of the stock RCA jacks is that bad that inserting a low cost Neutrik adapter improves it substantially, but who knows.
Before I ordered, I confirmed with Tom that he does use copper jacks and binding posts on these. He said he doesn't cut corners on quality of the components. Of course, the proof is always in the listening. While I do wonder if Catluck is right that enough break-in could do the trick on these, but Mick has had his Gan 3 for a couple years already, so maybe YMMV.
Yes, probably not quite 2 yrs though. Plus in that time, it's seen somewhat limited use. So a more thorough break-in might be needed. As of now, I'm using a Schiit Loki to tailor a more palatable presentation on a wider variety of program material. Today I'm also going to compare the XLR vs. single ended inputs. Yes, the same type Neutrik adapter you mention will be used. In all the cable experiements I've tried so far, XLR has shown no clear cut advantage over a quality single-ended RCA cable. As always though, YMMV.
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I'm probably only 50 hours in on mine, and generally digging the sound except for annoying sibilance. But I have several other system changes that all are being burned in at the same time and (very slow) pace, and am reserving testing/judgment of the various changes until I can get a lot more hours on them all. Hoping to do the old speakers-facing-each-other-wired-opposite-polarity-with-blanket-on-top burn-in process for almost two weeks straight while we're away for the holidays. If I can get it done, I should be approaching 300 hours by the time I return.
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Before I ordered, I confirmed with Tom that he does use copper jacks and binding posts on these. He said he doesn't cut corners on quality of the components.
Manufacturers aren't likely to confess that they use cheap parts, although most of them do.
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Not disclosing and outright lying when asked directly are two different things. I'm not prepared to call Tom a liar yet. Clearly, he has to use "cost effective" parts choices to offer the amps at the price point he does. But just because the parts are cheap, it doesn't mean they aren't decent quality. And I asked explicitly if they're copper. He said yes. But I didn't ask anything about plating processes, specific metallurgy (oxygen free, OCC, etc), or design (e.g. low-mass, use of ferrous screws/washers, etc). I'm not at all surprised that WBT or ETI could be an improvement, but at a cost. But that doesn't mean the original parts are crappy brass or something. It's possible he told the truth, the parts are better than average for cheap audio components, AND that they can be improved on significantly with aftermarket parts of higher quality.
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:D one can only think better parts,, better sound. But to give a % gain to $$ spent is always back of mind. He offers better binders on the monos ? Why I wonder ? :D
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I asked him about that too. He said he offers them because people asked for them, not necessarily because he thought they were a worthwhile investment.
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:D in the big old grand scheme of things. This amp is under a grand. Should we lower our expectations right off the bat. Like a dating site first date ? Haha. Coffee shop only 1st date. Good lord to spend a couple hundred on supper for a loonie is so dissapointing. 🎅🏻
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Not disclosing and outright lying when asked directly are two different things. I'm not prepared to call Tom a liar yet. Clearly, he has to use "cost effective" parts choices to offer the amps at the price point he does. But just because the parts are cheap, it doesn't mean they aren't decent quality. And I asked explicitly if they're copper. He said yes. But I didn't ask anything about plating processes, specific metallurgy (oxygen free, OCC, etc), or design (e.g. low-mass, use of ferrous screws/washers, etc). I'm not at all surprised that WBT or ETI could be an improvement, but at a cost. But that doesn't mean the original parts are crappy brass or something. It's possible he told the truth, the parts are better than average for cheap audio components, AND that they can be improved on significantly with aftermarket parts of higher quality.
The bolded part is, IME, correct. I've modded a ton of gear and the MiniGan certainly uses parts (binding posts, RCA connectors, wiring) that is a step above the really cheap stuff used in mass market gear. So, good enough for the vast majority of people.
You see this same type of 'good enough' approach with tube amps. Many manufacturers build out these incredible amps with amazing circuits and build quality, and then they ship them with cheap tubes like JJ or EH. Why not send them out with top of the line Psvane or NOS tubes? Because it would add a LOT to the cost of the amp and most people are perfectly happy with the stock tubes.
As a manufacturer, you have to find a happy medium between improved quality and rapidly escalating expenses. The MiniGan did a good job at that. But still, it can be improved.
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:D correct. It's all about making that last buck. A truck with positraction is 15 bucks more in parts and a wayyyyyy better truck if you get into snow and mud. But auto boys made it an option. It's about that very last dollar. Capitalism at its finest. :D
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Tom was responsive enough to one person's request to install WBT connectors by special order; then he went ahead and made it an option for others. I'd be surprised if he wouldn't be receptive to a conversation with anyone interested in an upgrade about his upgrading your amp after your purchase. Not saying he'd definitely do it, but I bet he'd at least consider it. And since it's only a five pound amp, you're not going to be out a lot in shipping. Just a thought..., and if he's willing, it might be a way of preserving warranty coverage while getting an upgrade. I might attempt to go down that road myself after I've given the amp enough time to get through the ups and downs of break-in.
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:D to wire in better terminations, doesn't seem that tough. If you have a few basic tools and a hot iron. ? :D
Connections are very important to be sure. But this mod would be a couple hundred bucks. Value over Cost is always the question. A Sunday afternoon project ,, but one must hear the fully broken in amp playing first. 1st things 1st. :D
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Not disclosing and outright lying when asked directly are two different things. I'm not prepared to call Tom a liar yet. Clearly, he has to use "cost effective" parts choices to offer the amps at the price point he does. But just because the parts are cheap, it doesn't mean they aren't decent quality. And I asked explicitly if they're copper. He said yes. But I didn't ask anything about plating processes, specific metallurgy (oxygen free, OCC, etc), or design (e.g. low-mass, use of ferrous screws/washers, etc). I'm not at all surprised that WBT or ETI could be an improvement, but at a cost. But that doesn't mean the original parts are crappy brass or something. It's possible he told the truth, the parts are better than average for cheap audio components, AND that they can be improved on significantly with aftermarket parts of higher quality.
He charges what he feels he can make an honest profit for his amps and of course parts he uses help him achieve this. Nothing wrong with that. You get what you pay for, there's no free lunch, no world beaters if they were they charge for that honor and quality and sound. Yes, things are overbuilt at times to justify the asking price, but in 40 years in this hobby, you have to pay x-amount of dollars to get a really good sound which was the case in the late 70s, 80s, and onward. Dynaco Stereo 70's were wonderful amps and affordable, but no Threshold 400A or 800A or ARC amps, Mark Levinson ML2, and so on. But you could build them as a kit on the cheap which is why it was the biggest-selling amp of all time. But sonics could be beaten if you paid more for a better amp if you could afford it which today's high-end would-be chump change. Smile! My Jaw dropped the 1st time I heard the ML ML2's and ML7 preamp, I never heard the sound where you were sitting in the studio listen in to the session, I was hooked from that day on, I rarely hear any systems today mega dollars that give me that feeling. It was their goal back then to make gear sound as close to real instruments as possible, some would tape say a live sax then play it right back on the gear they were designing and see how close it came to what they just heard. and ultra-specs be dammed, they used their ears for voicing and their years of skills to know what to change in the circuit and parts to get to that goal much like a good chief does with using the right spices. Look at the Opus 3 label on their early recordings that sound so real, they used Dynaco stereo 70's amps in their production, the reason was they gave music weight/soul very musical and is my need when I listen to a music system, clarity, fast does not impress me if you lose the body weight and soul of the music. The sound of my 1st exposure to how good the recording could be reproduced as stayed with me to this day.
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Wondering if the comments calling the MiniGans speaker binding posts "trash" or "junk" aren't a bit overblown. From Tom Rost yesterday,
"The binding posts on the amp are gold plated copper... just like the WBT binding posts and probably most others. the WBT's are very nice and well engineered but just way too expensive. They're also large and require us machine the cases to fit them. As far as sonic qualities, there just isn't any difference between ours and the WBT, although most everyone will disagree with me on this. I do understand why some would want them as they are nice, but most just don't realize just how expensive they are and are plastic binding posts. They also probably have a little better isolation, but this is not something that is enough difference to effect performance in the amplifiers."
Characterizing the posts as "trash" seems uncalled for, but whatever. Having done many, many mods of equipment over the last 40 years, some have been beneficial, some not, and some actually degraded the sound. All mods utilized higher priced parts. Using higher priced parts is meaningless, i.e., does NOT necessarily result in better audible performance. I have, too many times over the decades, sat with audiophile friends who, after modding some piece of kit called me to come and listen. In many instances the "improvements," if any, were so minimal and/or unreliably audible, that I came away thinking audiophiles are deeply prone to confirmation bias. For myself, I find the MiniGan's speaker posts wholly adequate to the task. For those who don't Class D offers the upgrade to WBT.
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Double Standard? Note that the Sapphire M3's appear to use WBT-0703Cu Nextgen Economy Binding Posts which retail for $45/each (https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/wbt-binding-posts/wbt-0703cu-nextgen-economy-binding-post-red/). These, in a $5K speaker. WBT manufactures posts costing upwards of $130/each. Has anybody replaced their M3 posts? If not, why not? By the logic expressed in these posts, one could assume that the more expensive (higher quality?) posts would (should?) yield a more musical presentation. But I haven't seen a single comment even suggesting that the M3 posts should be upgraded for improved sound. It could be that the posts are deemed "sufficient to the task," at least in Clayton's experience.
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Characterizing the posts as "trash" seems uncalled for, but whatever. Having done many, many mods of equipment over the last 40 years, some have been beneficial, some not, and some actually degraded the sound. All mods utilized higher priced parts. Using higher priced parts is meaningless, i.e., does NOT necessarily result in better audible performance. I have, too many times over the decades, sat with audiophile friends who, after modding some piece of kit called me to come and listen. In many instances the "improvements," if any, were so minimal and/or unreliably audible, that I came away thinking audiophiles are deeply prone to confirmation bias. For myself, I find the MiniGan's speaker posts wholly adequate to the task. For those who don't Class D offers the upgrade to WBT.
With regard to the mods, I'll take Tyson's word for it. He did more than switch out the stock binding posts.
On confirmation bias -- within the context of audio is a meaningless term. If I make a modification and I think it improved the sound, does it matter if I was influenced by my own expectations? Heck, it would be senseless to perform mods if you didn't believe they would improve the sound.
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Early B - to be clear I wouldn't, and didn't, argue that Tyson didn't "hear" what he claims to have heard, i.e., an improvement in sound quality upon switching binding posts, and ok, hook-up wire. No person can comment, with knowledge, on another person's experience. That's obvious.
Regarding confirmation bias, I argue that it most certainly is relevant and operative. Your post confirms as much albeit you conclude "who cares"? I'm with you on that point. If a person believes that the mod they performed improved the sound, well, then it did at least for that person. I happen to be in your camp rather than the objectivist camp, i.e., a mod must be empirically demonstrably better. Or blind testing must reliably confirm the improvement. As I've argued previously, I don't care as much about objective measurements as I do about subjective evaluation. We're aligned there. That doesn't mean, however, that confirmation bias isn't present and/or operative. Do you believe, for instance, that the WBT posts Tyson replaced would demonstrate superior electrical properties sufficient to improve the musical presentation? Perhaps , but I'm skeptical. Certainly WBT hasn't posted anything objective, i.e., empirical data, supporting such a claim. But, no matter. If Tyson feels the WBT posts improve the sound, that's all that matters to me. I'm no different in that respect. But, again, that doesn't diminish the presence of confirmation bias...
All of this, for speaker binding posts, reduces to Tom's comment that he doesn't hear a difference when using the WBT posts. That claim is as legitimate for Tom as Tyson's position that he does hear a difference. Each is driven by personal motivations - Tom considers manufacturing cost while Tyson sees potential for improvement - and, lo! each hears something different. The very essence of confirmation bias... among, perhaps other operative issues as well such as aural acuity, etc. There's a difference between "meaningless" and not "operative" in any event.
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Wondering if the comments calling the MiniGans speaker binding posts "trash" or "junk" aren't a bit overblown. From Tom Rost yesterday,
"The binding posts on the amp are gold plated copper... just like the WBT binding posts and probably most others. the WBT's are very nice and well engineered but just way too expensive. They're also large and require us machine the cases to fit them. As far as sonic qualities, there just isn't any difference between ours and the WBT, although most everyone will disagree with me on this. I do understand why some would want them as they are nice, but most just don't realize just how expensive they are and are plastic binding posts. They also probably have a little better isolation, but this is not something that is enough difference to effect performance in the amplifiers."
Characterizing the posts as "trash" seems uncalled for, but whatever. Having done many, many mods of equipment over the last 40 years, some have been beneficial, some not, and some actually degraded the sound. All mods utilized higher priced parts. Using higher priced parts is meaningless, i.e., does NOT necessarily result in better audible performance. I have, too many times over the decades, sat with audiophile friends who, after modding some piece of kit called me to come and listen. In many instances the "improvements," if any, were so minimal and/or unreliably audible, that I came away thinking audiophiles are deeply prone to confirmation bias. For myself, I find the MiniGan's speaker posts wholly adequate to the task. For those who don't Class D offers the upgrade to WBT.
The thing is when a designer "voices" their gear it is based on the total design of the circuit so if you replace say a carbon film with a dale metal film that does pass the highs much more; well guess what you throw off the sound of that piece of gear because the unit other parts were chosen to work with the Carbon film where the highs were not as pronounced but the parts after that were based on that and would be matched to make the highs proper output for the design, now the dales really push the highs and the parts after that also, so what happens you now have a sound of pushed highs and lower treble and upper mids, so the dales while a better part throws off the balance of the unit, and some might like that change better but after doing it back in the day, I only thought it sounded bright like turning the treble up on a receiver. To do it right I have to change out the parts on the whole circuit boards and that be like building a new piece of gear even then, based on the circuit design the outcome would be a crap shoot.
Changing wiring and binding posts can give you some improvements while safely keeping the product you purchased sounding balanced and most of all retaining its full value. Modification can sound good but when getting it back you have a different sound and you better like it, it is the same as if you went and brought home say a new preamp, at least if you did not like it you could take it back, with a mod you are stuck with it, and good luck selling it.
I came to the conclusion from doing that building up the power supply made more difference while leaving all the rest in the signal path alone, power supplies make a unit which is why amps that really weigh a lot is due to the massive power supplies. Preamps also bigger the power supply the better they sound. CD players also, which is why say an Esoteric can have up to 4 transformers in their power supplies and weight up to 85 lbs.
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1) Tyson didn't use the WBT, but rather the ETI binding posts. ETI's are low-mass designs, while I'm not sure the WBT are.
2) Tyson also swapped out the RCA inputs and internal wiring, both low-level and speaker-level.
3) Not sure what Tom uses speaker-wise, or the rest of his system for that matter. Tyson is using the GR Research Super 7's with ribbon tweeter/mids speakers, and which binding posts, crossovers, etc he has upgraded to the hilt. Those babies are gonna be extremely transparent to any system change. They also have a tendency to be a little more on the neutral end of the spectrum, not as warm, so are probably more sensitive to extra "spittle" as I think he put it.
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I feel like people are getting defensive and there's no need for that. You all have to understand that EVERYTHING that I buy ends up getting modded. I've used a ton of different wires and connectors and binding posts (and IEC connectors). Depending on the native sound of the amp/DAC/Preamp/Speaker I use different parts.
Gear is too bright and needs to be relaxed a bit:
ETI copper binding posts and RCA connectors
VH Audio OCC hookup wire
Gear is Neutral but could use higher quality:
WBT copper binding posts/RCAs
Gear is too mellow and could use more liveliness:
ETI silver RCA
Fururtech copper binding posts/RCAs
WBT Silver binding posts/RCAs
Nemak silver hookup wire
So it's not a one size fits all. Most of my tube gear gets the 'liven things up' parts and most of my SS gear gets the 'mellow things out' parts.
Also, IMO, there's no reason to just stick with the voicing the manufacturer gave their gear. If you really like something but maybe it's a bit harsh, make some changes so it mellows out. Conversely, if you really like something but it's maybe a bit too sleepy or syrupy sounding, liven it up. For me this is the best way to be able to live with gear long term.
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So besides this kerfuffle about the quality of parts, how does it sound?
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:D well Santa stopped at my mail box today. I'm breaking in the amp now with the balanced connections. I will say the speaker terminals are light duty for sure. But then again I have these Zu cables with those car engine blocks on them. What the heck are those anyway ? Will give it a listen in a few days. :D
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I will say the speaker terminals are light duty for sure.
Yeah, I unscrewed the plastic pieces so that the banana plugs would fit better. A bit risky, but a short-term solution until I replace them with some "cheap" binding posts (No ETI's, WBT's or high-end Furutechs!). Maybe some KLEI's. I probably won't go any farther with upgrades. The amp is on my wife's system and only gets used a few times a year, so I'll get it done eventually. I don't expect a sonic improvement. I just want them to function better and look better. P.S. -- I mod most of my gear, too, so this was inevitable.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247693)
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So besides this kerfuffle about the quality of parts, how does it sound?
Still burning in. The new parts are going to add another 70 hours or so if further burn in.
Even without full burn in I can say that the imaging, soundstage and sheer levels of resolution are impressive.
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Even without full burn in I can say that the imaging, soundstage and sheer levels of resolution are impressive.
Yeah, the resolution is as good as it gets (...or maybe as good as anyone could hope for?). That's the magic of Class D.
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Still burning in. The new parts are going to add another 70 hours or so if further burn in.
Even without full burn in I can say that the imaging, soundstage and sheer levels of resolution are impressive.
What preamp are you using?
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What preamp are you using?
Using the preamp output from my iFi iDSD Pro DAC at the moment.
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Mine came in yesterday. I'm busy at work but I got up early today. I've almost got it ready to go to start breaking in.
I've got a Schiit Freya + and a couple of tubes from Brent Jessee for the gain stage along with socket savers and I'll hook it up to my Rotel CD player on loop.
I have some KEF LS50 Meta speakers to do the honors. I've hooked the MiniGaN to the Freya + via XLR interconnects.
Btw, I found a good deal on a pair of slightly used Nola Boxer S3 speakers which replaced the KEFs in my small living room unit. Very nice speakers.
So it begins . . .
Initially, sounded good right out of the gate and I'm not hearing any spittakes or anything Tyson is referring to. I'm a bit sensitive to that and I'm using a cd I used to sample speakers with some shimmering guitars to bring that out if its there and the KEF LS50s are described sometimes as irritating in the upper range. I don't have my X5s hooked up so I can't compare but I'm pleased so far. Although I'm in the midst of some construction and don't have the time to really listen so grain of salt time.
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Yep, similar but not the same. Revisited full XLR cabling ( I won't say "balanced" because I'm not sure on all 3 components in the chain) yesterday from Denafrips Ares/ Freya+ and on to the Mini GaN 3. Let's just say I'm now really hearing the Mini GaN 3 at its full potential. Of course time will tell as the increase in gain from both the XLR outputs of the Ares and Freya+ gives an immediate impression of greater resolution and dynamics. More listening today, but I think it might be safe to say the Mini GaN 3 likes being fed from XLR to XLR. Did not seem to have the same success when using a single ended IC into the MiniGaN's XLR's using an adapter. Or simply using a single ended IC. Of course and once again, the significant difference in gain gives one an immediate impression of being "better". So more sorting out is in order. Speakers are lightly modded (Clarity cap upgrade) Zu Omen DW's.
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Like Mick W and Daryl Z, I'm using a Freya+ and running XLR with MiniGan mono 5's. Even if I was unable to qualitatively describe the improvements I'm hearing, I know that something has happened in terms of musical quality, compared to my previous system configuration, because I find myself listening longer than I ever have. Morning listening sessions regularly extend for 20-25 minutes longer than I ever listened before I placed the MiniGans into service. Additionally, I end sessions listening at higher volumes because the presentation is so clean and impressive. For me that's really the tell that something has changed for the better. This, about 3 months into the MiniGans.
One other thing: For those who suffer with bothersome (and aren't they always) sibilants or spitichiness, it seems the footers one uses for the MiniGans can impact tonal quality. Although I was never obsessive about footers under various gear, I have tried various footers with the MiniGans and found vibrapods to be the most pleasing, i.e., preserving detail and clarity but also diminishing (it seems) sibilants, spitchiness and, as important, an occasional hard or glaring leading edge seemingly limited to human voice. Although I think burning in the units was, by far, the most critical to reducing glare and edge, it all adds up.
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Just to add to your footer statement. I put 3 IsoAcoustics Indigo's under the MiniGaN 3. Way overkill considering the weight of the MiniGaN, but I've got eight IsoA Mini Pucks on the way. I needed more for another app anyway. And yes, they ( IsoA's) seem to have somewhat of a taming effect.
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Yeah, I’m using Iso Pucks too, so footers aren’t the issue. I just got around to swapping out the stock Sovtek 6sn7 in my new preamp with a Psvane gray bottle with plenty of hours on it. After about a half hour, it’s clear most of that sibilance was coming from the Sovtek. It’ll take a few days before that new tube settles into the system.
I also have some XLR cables on the way to try the XLR outputs on this new preamp into the XLR inputs on the MiniGan. I’ve only ever been singled ended, and my DACs are still singled ended, so am just starting with some cheap Monoprice cables to see what kind of changes I hear. If the dynamics and openness are to my liking I’ll then look into a higher end set for better refinement of the sound. I.e., if I hear some thinness, brittleness, or sibilance come back, I’ll assume it’s the cheap Monoprices.
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I need to add a caveat to my previous initial thoughts.
I am listening to the set up in my garage/office, same place where my X5s sound great. It may be the room which accounts for some or all of my observations on the KEF LS50 Meta sound. I have to do more switching around when construction levels out to see how the X5s sound so I can compare more apples to apples.
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:D close to 100 hours on my little amp. This thing is not a dissapointment in the least. I think for the $$ , this amp will surprise most. Hard to wrap your head around this. Need a few more hundred hours to finish the break in. More good listening to come. Smiling. :D
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Hello all. I just found this thread yesterday and was intrigued. I am just starting my journey in building my system so I am starting fresh. I emailed Class D audio to see if they can do the modifications that Tyson spoke of. So we will find out if they will do the upgrade. I don't have any experience with working with electronics so I would be nervous doing it myself. I am looking at getting a Schiit Freya+ for a preamp and some GR Research speakers. Does anyone have any opinions on a preamps? I am also not sure what speakers I am getting from GR Research. Oh yeah! I forgot I still need a DAC.
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Hello all. I just found this thread yesterday and was intrigued. I am just starting my journey in building my system so I am starting fresh. I emailed Class D audio to see if they can do the modifications that Tyson spoke of. So we will find out if they will do the upgrade. I don't have any experience with working with electronics so I would be nervous doing it myself. I am looking at getting a Schiit Freya+ for a preamp and some GR Research speakers. Does anyone have any opinions on a preamps? I am also not sure what speakers I am getting from GR Research. Oh yeah! I forgot I still need a DAC.
Probably we would need to know more about what speakers you plan to get, your budget and information about the room you are putting things in. I got the Freya + because I didn't have a preamp and I was taking a chance on the MiniGaN 5 which I thought I might return. (Not thinking that now). There are several Don Sach's preamps used available that I am keeping my eye on but I don't know if they would change the sound that much or not but it is basically paying a bit over twice the Freya + if you get the tube upgrade. I'm sure many posters here would have an idea of the preamp but the type and efficiency of the speaker is something that comes into play and has to be factored in.
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I replaced my Freya OG with a Don Sachs preamp two months ago. It was a significant upgrade in every way. Better bass, tone/timbre, detail retrieval, etc. The only downside is the loss of XLR outputs, if that matters.
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Just got an email back from Class D Audio. They said they will install whatever parts you send to them and still keep the warranty. You have to purchase the amp first and you cannot return it. Which makes sense to me. Now I just have to decide on the stereo amp or the monos.
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I replaced my Freya OG with a Don Sachs preamp two months ago. It was a significant upgrade in every way. Better bass, tone/timbre, detail retrieval, etc. The only downside is the loss of XLR outputs, if that matters.
Yes if you want to get end game level quality of a pre, then go for a Don Sachs. It pairs exceedingly well with Spatial speakers whether using the Gan Amp here or a tube amp. Some of his units do have XLR though.
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Well, I couldn't stand the hash and spitiness I was hearing with the stock MiniGan 5. Looking under the hood it's clear they used mediocre quality parts for the binding posts, RCA connectors and internal wiring. So, time for surgery!
Spent the afternoon with a drill bit, a soldering iron and some top quality parts. Here's the progression of the work:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247560)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247559)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247558)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247557)
Was the result worth the effort? Hell yeah. Tonal beauty is no longer a glaring weakness. It will never be a tube amp, but at least there's no hash or spitiness getting in the way of the amps other, considerable strengths.
Here's a list of parts I used. Mostly I picked things that I know have a softer/warmer sound, to try to get the amp to be better balanced:
ETI Copper RCA connectors
ETI Copper binding posts
VH Audio OCC hookup wire (for the speaker wiring)
Nemak pure silver hand polished hookup wire (for the input/RCA wiring)
A few things to note (if you want to try this yourself). First, the ETI copper binding posts are too thick for the existing holes in the case, so you'll need to enlarge the holes with a case bit. Second, the ETI Copper binding posts are too long to fit without using some silicone spacers (I picked up some at the hardware store). Finally, to get to all the solder points you need to remove the main circuit board. There's 4 screws on the corners of the board. And the RCA connectors and the XLR connectors have to be unscrewed from the back of the case, because the board is attached to those connectors.
Tyson I emailed Class D audio and they said I could send them parts to upgrade. They will still honor the warranty. Are these the changes you would make if purchasing brand new?
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Just got an email back from Class D Audio. They said they will install whatever parts you send to them and still keep the warranty. You have to purchase the amp first and you cannot return it. Which makes sense to me. Now I just have to decide on the stereo amp or the monos.
That’s awesome, thanks for sharing!
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I’m sure it’s tough to beat the Freya + at that price point. And as the owner of a Don Sachs for four-five years now, it’s the real-deal. That said, I’d give the Black Ice Audio F360 a serious look. At $2500 it’s a little cheaper than the Don Sachs, but is immediately available and you get a 45 day trial period. Black Ice Audio also offers lots of options for upgrades down the line, and will work with you to do whatever you want to upgrade internals. It only uses a single 6sn7, so is much more economical for tube rolling than the Freya or the Don Sachs. Lots of options for customizing/optimizing the sound for your speakers and room too. I’m growing more and more impressed with it as I work my way through the break-in process. Synergy with the MiniGan is excellent, IMO.
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:D one amp is all you need. I sure would love to mod the speaker terminals myself. They are a weee bit cheesie. With 100 hours plus on mine it's a couple hundred hours out from singing like it should. Good value here indeed. I use a VAC pre and it's pretty dam nice even so far. :D
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Tyson I emailed Class D audio and they said I could send them parts to upgrade. They will still honor the warranty. Are these the changes you would make if purchasing brand new?
Yes. The only change I would make is I'd use VH Audio OCC wire for the RCA connectors instead of the Nemak silver wire. Otherwise, everything else the same.
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The Black Ice Audio appears to offer much for the price. But I only want the tubes hidden (protected) in my guitar amps, not in stereo gear. Glowing tubes make me happy.
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Sure thing, here's the links for the parts:
VH Hookup Wire - https://www.vhaudio.com/unicrystal-occ-copper-wire.html - get the 18ga for the speaker wire and 24ga for the RCA wire.
ETI Cable Pod (Speaker Binding Posts) - https://www.vhaudio.com/connectors-speaker.html#EichmannCablePod
ETI Copper RCA Connector - https://www.vhaudio.com/eti-fr-tc07-rca-socket.html
Case bit (to enlarge the speaker binding post holes) - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YK581VG/ref=emc_b_5_i
Nylon Spacers - I bought these at my local Ace Hardware. They were necessary because the ETI Cable Pod speaker binding posts were too long. I just took one of the binding posts into Ace and measured various nylon spacers until I found one that fit. I needed 12 in total (3 per binding post).
Tyson when I go to the links to the binding post it takes me to a gold plated binding post. It cost $119. Is this the correct post. I am confused because you said copper.
Tyson when I use the links above it takes me to a gold plated binding post. It cost $119. Is this the correct post. I am confused because you said copper but it is saying gold plated.
Do you remember the size of spacers? I want to ship the parts to Class D Audio so I won't have a chance to take them into Ace.
Last question. What length of wire should I get for each?
I really appreciate all the help.
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Tyson when I use the links above it takes me to a gold plated binding post. It cost $119. Is this the correct post. I am confused because you said copper but it is saying gold plated.
Do you remember the size of spacers? I want to ship the parts to Class D Audio so I won't have a chance to take them into Ace.
Last question. What length of wire should I get for each?
I really appreciate all the help.
The purity of the copper doesn't have anything to do with the plating. Most of the time, other metals are mixed in with the copper to make it harder and stronger because pure copper is very soft. The ETI copper is pure copper and you have to be careful with it, don't over-tighten it or it can break. The gold plating is there only to prevent oxidation.
For the wire, I'd say get 2 feet of the green 18ga and 2 feet of the red 18 ga. That will wire the speaker signal. And for the RCA wire, get 1 foot of 24ga. The space is so small you don't need any more than that, it will wire up everything with plenty to spare.
Don't remember the size of the spacers, sorry.
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:D hay Tyson,, do you need to soldier both ends of the speaker terminals ? Also the RCAs, do you need to soldier those too ? Your pics are good but can't see that.. thanks. You did a good job.. 🎶🎶🎅🏻🎶🎶
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:D hay Tyson,, do you need to soldier both ends of the speaker terminals ? Also the RCAs, do you need to soldier those too ? Your pics are good but can't see that.. thanks. You did a good job.. 🎶🎶🎅🏻🎶🎶
I'm going to re-do some of the wiring in mine when some new VH Audio OCC 24ga hookup wire gets here and I'll take some close up photos when I get it.
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:D ok, your not liking the wire you used ? You are a modder extreme ,,,, :D
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Gear is too bright and needs to be relaxed a bit:
ETI copper binding posts and RCA connectors
VH Audio OCC hookup wire
Gear is Neutral but could use higher quality:
WBT copper binding posts/RCAs
Gear is too mellow and could use more liveliness:
ETI silver RCA
Fururtech copper binding posts/RCAs
WBT Silver binding posts/RCAs
Nemak silver hookup wire
Seems to me like Tyson still would like the MiniGan sound to be a touch more mellow.
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Seems to me like Tyson still would like the MiniGan sound to be a touch more mellow.
Precisely. And I got my wish :thumb:
The VH Audio OCC 24 ga wire came today and I took pics of the work so people can see more clearly what I did.
These screws have to be removed:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247861)
And removed:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247862)
The screws on the board have to be removed (one screw at each of the 4 corners in the pic below):
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247863)
Speaker wire, red on the right, green on the left. The old speaker wire ran under the board. I prefer to run the new speaker wire above the board because it looks cool:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247864)
Connected to the terminals. Red wire to the top terminal, green wire to the bottom terminal:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247865)
After you remove the RCA plastic block, this is the board underneath. Ground is top left. Left signal is bottom left. Right signal is bottom right.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247866)
Wired up:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247867)
I was happy with the amp before the mods, because I was using it mainly as a Home Theater amp in my downstairs system. It was great at that, perfect for it, really. Massive soundstage, incredible detail. But I didn't like music through it. Too sibilant and tonally thin. After the mods, the tonal balance is MUCH better and the sibilance is dramatically reduced. I can now listen to (and enjoy) music through it.
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Tyson, have you ever tried using starquad twisted wire? It can provide up to 50db of noise rejection at 60hz. In the amp you could use it from the module to the binding posts. Induction is also decreased with this wire geometry. Given that it is a short run it may or may not make a difference but with the proximity of the power supply it might be worth trying out.
I wonder if some of the sibilance you were hearing was because the factory wires were picking up electrical noise due to being run under the module and not being twisted together for electrical noise rejection.
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So, a small interim report. The MiniGaN 5 and Freya + sound great with the KEF LS50s. I was excited and moved the Nola Boxer S3s in because, you know, if the KEFs sound great, the Nolas will sound incredible. Nope. And the Nolas had kicked the KEFs' butt on my secondary system and replaced them. Huh. I guess there still has to be some synergy.
Will be able to try the X5s in a week or so.
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Second interim report. Finally got to get my X5s out and hooked up. My initial impression is that it isn't better than the LTA, similar tone and a bit less clarity and not pushing the bass somehow. Upper range sounds nice. But the worst part was sitting up close. With the LTA, I can sit 3 feet from the speakers and it doesn't sound like the sound is coming from the speakers. With the MiniGaN and the Freya + the sound is coming directly from the speakers. Not much imaging at this point.
So far, this is great with the KEF LS50 Meta speakers but not so much with the Nola Boxer or the X5s.
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suggest you look to the Freya+ for problem and not the miniGAN! (monoblocks in my case) I just took the Freya out and put Black Ice Audio F 360 preamp in. Out of the box it is much more transparent and articulate and more complete top to bottom. I expect more improvement as it breaks in and I can play with some of the other features.
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Took the MiniGan 5 out and put back in a tube amp into my downstairs system and, well, the tube amp is staying.
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Took the MiniGan 5 out and put back in a tube amp into my downstairs system and, well, the tube amp is staying.
Yeah. To me, the MiniGaN sounds like a regular SS amp, not bad but nothing special.
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suggest you look to the Freya+ for problem and not the miniGAN! (monoblocks in my case) I just took the Freya out and put Black Ice Audio F 360 preamp in. Out of the box it is much more transparent and articulate and more complete top to bottom. I expect more improvement as it breaks in and I can play with some of the other features.
If it's the preamp which is bringing the magic, what's the point of the MiniGaN?
If I get a fantastic tube preamp, don't I basically have my LTA Z40+ integrated with a bit more power?
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Took the MiniGan 5 out and put back in a tube amp into my downstairs system and, well, the tube amp is staying.
[/quote
I am not surprised at your results. There is never a free lunch in audio.
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Took the MiniGan 5 out and put back in a tube amp into my downstairs system and, well, the tube amp is staying.
I am not at all surprised by your results. Sad to say in Audio there is no free lunch, x-amount of dollars equals sound quality until you start spending crazy money on gear that is as much part more of its looks as well as sound.
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Sad to say in Audio there is no free lunch, x-amount of dollars equals sound quality until you start spending crazy money on gear that is as much part more of its looks as well as sound.
agree in general, but respectfully disagree in particular cases. to me, there are components which deliver sound quality which is in excess of their price range. the elusive "giant killers." for me, my nord ncore class d amp is in this category. as is the ganfet amp that i tried on my M3's. obviously, results on particular components will vary for others based on systems, tastes etc., but i find that there are exceptions to linearity on the price/quality spectrum.
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Best bargain SS amps I know of are the Odyssey line and the First Watt DIY amps.
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Best bargain SS amps I know of are the Odyssey line and the First Watt DIY amps.
Odyssey amps are great after they break in. Pass Labs is a given, Nelson has more knowledge of SS amps than anyone in this hobby. Experience and knowledge matter. Stick with the pros. If you like class D then go with a company with many years of experience in building them. Bel Canto comes to mind.
https://belcantodesign.com/home/eone/ref601m-amplifier/
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Took the MiniGan 5 out and put back in a tube amp into my downstairs system and, well, the tube amp is staying.
Yes, I feel the Mini GaN 3 is quite good, especially here where I've found running XLR to XLR a plus. For some it might even be a revelation for its ability to drive more difficult loads and its strong bass presence. Yet when I've put either of my two tube amps back in system, it's game over.
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Pass Labs is a given, Nelson has more knowledge of SS amps than anyone in this hobby. Experience and knowledge matter. Stick with the pros.
The MiniGaN 5 monoblocks (with WBT binding posts installed by Class D Audio) are very clearly better than my Pass Labs XA25 in my system through the Spatial Audio M3 Sapphires. The MiniGans removed some upper midrange grunge that was affecting vocals with the XA25, provided more texture and reach in the bass, and is provides more detail than the XA25 (and naturally so, not etched or hyped sounding).
I suspect that the running the MiniGaNs in a fully balanced system makes a difference, both in general and in moving from the XA25 in my system. My Holo May KTE DAC and Holo Serene preamp are fully balanced, as is the MiniGan 5.
I have never had a larger Pass amp in my system, so I wouldn't be surprised if a pair of their 60 watt or larger monoblocks with balanced inputs would match or improve on the MiniGan 5s. I've enjoyed hours of Nelson Pass's technical discussions on Youtube, and the company has been top notch to work with. The XA25 sounded very enjoyable in my system, the MiniGan 5 monoblocks simply sound better.
Regarding Bel Canto and others who make silicon-based Class D amps, it's apples and oranges: they have zero years of experience designing GaN-based amps.
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If it's the preamp which is bringing the magic, what's the point of the MiniGaN?
If I get a fantastic tube preamp, don't I basically have my LTA Z40+ integrated with a bit more power?
For me it's the synergy. I believe there's somehow great synergy between this amp, a good 6SN7 pre and the spatial speakers. Correct me if I'm wrong but Tysons comments are using his GR Research speakers.
I'd be interested to hear anyone using spatial speakers and this amp connected direct via digital
Minus a pre amp.
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It would also be interesting to hear musical choices of those who love this am and those who prefer others, all other variables equal. In my work I'm an expert at isolating the variables contributing to a certain issue. I personally listen mostly to female vocals like melody Gardot, Lana del Ray, Billie Eilish, and also rock like radiohead, Pink Floyd , as well as indie folk like devandra banhadt. Modern R and B also sounds great to me via this system as does anything with an upright bass.
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It would also be interesting to hear musical choices of those who love this am and those who prefer others, all other variables equal. In my work I'm an expert at isolating the variables contributing to a certain issue. I personally listen mostly to female vocals like melody Gardot, Lana del Ray, Billie Eilish, and also rock like radiohead, Pink Floyd , as well as indie folk like devandra banhadt. Modern R and B also sounds great to me via this system as does anything with an upright bass.
I listen to mostly classical, but with a wide range of other artists otherwise. I like female vocals like Lana del Rey, Billie Eilish, Rhiannon Giddens, etc... For more pop/hip hop I like The Weeknd, BTS, Tyler the Creator, Kendrick Lamar, etc.... For Jazz I like older stuff like Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald. For modern alternative music I like Radiohead, Tool, Tom Waits, Nine Inch Nails, Arca and Perfume Genius. For classic rock I like Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin.
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Yes, and I'm as guilty as anyone. I'm not using Spatial's either. And of course, that was the original topic of this thread to begin with. :|
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The main kind of music I listen to is indie/alternative from 1970s up to current. I do listen to all types of music including jazz, electronic, country, rock, rap and classical although more selective on those.
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I listen to a wide range of music. I don't listen to very much top 40 music from the last few years, but I listen to things that are as compressed or bass heavy. I definitely value the ability of an amp to resolve the details and reproduce the soundstage and timbre instruments in an orchestra. Tracking a stand-up bass in a jazz recording, naturally reproducing vocals, and having the speed to reproduce drums are also important. With that said, I switch gears to rock, pop, and electronic-oriented music pretty regularly.
I haven't run across anything that I preferred on the Pass amp. For something like a 50's Sinatra recording, an EL34-based amp might add some enjoyable glow but would not be nearly as versatile or even in performance as the MiniGans.
Merry Christmas to everyone!
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This thread is indeed based upon the sound of the MiniGans with Sapphire M3's. Didn't raise the specter of any other speaker. I listen to jazz, 50's era through the present, almost entirely on the Sapphire/MiniGan/Freya+ system. As previously noted, I've never heard the Sapphires sound so alive or real. And, as I've noted, I'm a tube guy for the last 30 years. Concerning the advice to stick with long-lived companies doing class D, like Bel Canto, I've owned the eRef 600 mono's. They were fabulous amps but IMO not the equal of the MiniGan5 monos which have greater clarity throughout the sonic spectrum and a sense of aliveness absent with the Bel Cantos. And, of course, the MiniGans are 1/3 the price. But, as I've always stated, I don't give a damn about price if the product isn't wholly musical. Who wants to own a less expensive product that sounds anything other than musical (whatever your tastes dictate as "musical")? Not me.
I also disagree about the Freya+. Again, I've owned AR SP9, SP11, BAT VK 51SE, and BAT VK52SE (just a sampling...). I have no sense that the presentation through the Freya is tied to the speakers. Soundstaging, both laterally and height, are wholly satisfactory. No sense of the music tied to the speakers. I'm listening to Gonzalo Rubalcava/Charlie Haden at this moment and the presentation floats between the speaks about 4 1/2' high with no sense of speaks in the room. The piano sits right between the speaks about 2 1/2' behind the speaks with a fat, muscular, tone-rich bass off to the right. It could be that depth of soundstage is slightly truncated but I'd have to do a side-by-side comparison with another preamp and that's not going to happen anytime soon. In any event, it's not sufficient to compel me to seek another preamp.
If we consider a preamp's most important "objective" qualities, i.e., accurate channel matching (volume), low noise/distortion, gain, input impedance, and channel separation, well, again, I'll defer to John Atkinson's summary,
"With its very low levels of both noise and distortion, even with the tube stage active, the Schiit Freya + preamplifier's measured performance is superb..."
For those who've read Atkinson's reviews over the years, we can appreciate the significance of his words, i.e., he's sparing with accolades or the use of words like "superb." I didn't want to "enjoy" the Freya because, well, how could a $1,000 preamp outperform the far more expensive units I've owned? I've got to spend way more $$ to get the performance I'm hungering for... don't I? Well, the only thing I can say is that my usual behavior, over the last 40 years, is that after a month or three, I'll start thinking about upgrading when components aren't "doing it" for me. Not only is that not happening, it's still the case that I can't wait to get out of bed to go listen to music. I recognize that might not be the case for anyone else... I'm just grateful it's the case for me.
It's now 10 minutes after I wrote the above. Listening to Stan Getz, "Award Winner." Marveling at the pitch/detail of the hi-hat. Really sounds like a hi-hat. For those who know, Getz's sax can often present as lacking texture. But with this system, the his leading edge has some bite. Finally, snare drum actually has a sense of snares under the bottom skin... snap, aliveness. None of this was present to the same degree with any tubes or SS I've previously used.
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The MiniGaN 5 monoblocks (with WBT binding posts installed by Class D Audio) are very clearly better than my Pass Labs XA25 in my system through the Spatial Audio M3 Sapphires. The MiniGans removed some upper midrange grunge that was affecting vocals with the XA25, provided more texture and reach in the bass, and is provides more detail than the XA25 (and naturally so, not etched or hyped sounding).
I suspect that the running the MiniGaNs in a fully balanced system makes a difference, both in general and in moving from the XA25 in my system. My Holo May KTE DAC and Holo Serene preamp are fully balanced, as is the MiniGan 5.
I have never had a larger Pass amp in my system, so I wouldn't be surprised if a pair of their 60 watt or larger monoblocks with balanced inputs would match or improve on the MiniGan 5s. I've enjoyed hours of Nelson Pass's technical discussions on Youtube, and the company has been top notch to work with. The XA25 sounded very enjoyable in my system, the MiniGan 5 monoblocks simply sound better.
Regarding Bel Canto and others who make silicon-based Class D amps, it's apples and oranges: they have zero years of experience designing GaN-based amps.
I would imagine that Bel Canto would use whatever would sound the best, why would they not, and for that matter any manufacture of real quality gear? I think they have no prejudice against any one technology or part used.
Going XLR all the way through a system from the front end to the amp is the way to go if your gear is designed for true balanced not just providing XLR inputs and outputs. It is night and day better in some cases and I have compared the 2 a few times in my system with totally different gear over the many years, always right back to XLR cables throughout.
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Bel Canto, like most SS manufactures may well be investigating GaNfets. Let's remember that this technology is of recent origin. Few makers have any experience with GaNfets. And they are nothing like Mosfets. Which means traversing a learning curve and, potentially, bringing on new design talent. Further, it may mean obsoleting any current Mosfet technology the manufacturer sells (like all of Bel Canto's SS gear). Significant considerations.
Totally agree that XLR is the way to go if you can. But I'm aware that many contend it makes little difference except in long cable runs. Oh well....
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I would imagine that Bel Canto would use whatever would sound the best, why would they not, and for that matter any manufacture of real quality gear?
:scratch:
Knowledge of amp design, the budget to apply that knowledge, the willingness to use parts that get the best out of a design, and judgment about what sounds good are just a few of the things that differ, often significantly, among the hundreds of companies selling amps.
"Buy whatever Bel Canto is selling at the moment" certainly simplifies things, I suppose. To each his own.
Have you compared the MiniGan5 to a current production Bel Canto amp, to test the hypothesis?
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Underwood Audio has been selling amps of Gallium Nitride used in their products for a good few years, so it's not something really that new, a lot of power that is very affordable, how any part is used is only part of the whole it how the parts are used and were in any circuit design. They are no end-all for any part, it is only one part of the overall design. If they are really good then others will start using them if they feel it makes a sonic improvement on their design. The power supply is the key to better sonics, and that costs money. You get what you pay for. Clearly, companies are using GaN as a buzzword. I have had Merell Element 114 and Peachtree newest in my system so to extremes in costs and both went back.
Here is the opinion of the Purifi team on GaN as discussed in an interview:
Bruno: Well, with the sort of audio performance we’re getting I’d say that we’re asymptotically approaching “perfect”. One could argue that we passed the point of diminishing returns a few years ago already. I’m not saying that a next step won’t have any audible benefits, but in the grander scheme of things, the margin is shrinking.
Lars: That’s if you stick to audio performance alone. Otherwise we wouldn’t have bothered going to class D to begin with. You don’t do that for audio quality. You do that to get better efficiency, make the amp smaller and yadda. And then you get a new set of problems to fix, such as what it sounds like. And then there’s reliability, manufacturability and so on. I wouldn’t say that GaN is going to be the answer to those things, and neither is upping the switching frequency.
Bruno: Well for a given efficiency you could probably increase the switching rate, but if I’m going to shell out as much for a pair of FETs as what you’d normally pay for the whole amp, I’d rather benefit from that in terms of higher efficiency. Of course, not everyone is able to make that choice. I’ve spent my career honing control loops, most audio designers haven’t and so have to rely on simpler control loops. In that case, increasing the switching frequency is definitely helpful to reduce distortion.
Lars: We’re as fanatic about audio quality as anyone else, but because we’ve got feedback down to a T now we’re not forced to resort to higher switching frequencies.
Bruno: If we need to be geeky and I guess that the folks who are going to read this interview can handle that -eh Thomas?- lets grab the specs for the FET in our 400W Eigentakt module and its closest GaN equivalent. So that’s the FDP42AN15A0 (OnSemi) on our left and the EPC2033 on our right. Rdson: 36mOhm vs 7mOhm. Clear win for GaN here.
Lars: It’s also got a higher current rating (24A vs 48A) so if we want to be fair we should be scaling by about 2:1
Bruno: Oh erm well, that’s still a minor win for GaN because after scaling it’d come up at 14mOhm. Gate charge is of course magnificently low (30nC vs 6nC after scaling) so driver losses would be low and you can turn them on fast. GaN also has zero Qrr so you can do that if you want. But the main thing that sticks in my throat here is output capacitance. Our good old FDP42, which is from 2002 mind you, has an output capacitance at 100V of 70pF whereas the EPC device puts in a whopping half nanofarad (or 250 puff after scaling). That means your idle losses will go up, or you will have to increase dead time to allow the output inductor to recover the extra stored energy at its leisure. And isn’t it just idle losses that more or less determine real-life power consumption in full? And if power consumption isn’t something to care about, why not just stick with class A…?
Lars: And high dead time combined with high switching frequency sounds even less attractive. That just increases open-loop distortion.
Bruno: In applications like motor controllers and high density SMPS GaN and SiC devices are a breakthrough, mind you. It’s just that audio is this weird application where average power is very low and where dead time actually affects performance.
Lars: And GaN is going to mature so this picture is bound to shift at some point. Just not now.
Bruno: True. On the other hand, silicon is doing the same. More recent devices are getting frightfully close to GaN. Sadly they only come in SMD packages that require fairly expensive methods to get the heat out. Like most GaN devices. It looks terribly ancient, but the good old TO220 package is still a neat compromise in terms of performance for the price.
Lars: It’s just a game of tradeoffs. The fact that we’re using normal parts, and the reason why we chose to do so doesn’t make for a sexy story. We all like to believe in a magic bullet but when you’re an engineer you have to make choices based on tangible grounds. So the sexy story we’re trying to push about Eigentakt is that we think it’s a bloody clever design.
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... And if power consumption isn’t something to care about, why not just stick with class A…?
Thank you for posting this interview. I need a new amplifier for my front three X3s. I am perfectly happy with my Parasound A52+ (class A A/B). But, I have more speakers needing an amp. The Parasound A31 is top of my list. But, I've done a deep dive into this thread and others, looking at Class D. I keep coming back to the Class A A/B Parasound. As an aside, I installed 100 Amps of solar panels a few years ago (here in sunny Las Vegas). Power consumption is well controlled. Decision soon.
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The Purifi team review posted still seems to admit "advantage GanFet." When was this interview conducted? As has been noted too many times, it's the subjective evaluation, for each of us, that we ultimately base our buying decisions on. Regardless of the techo-babble recited, the MiniGans simply sound more alive than any Mosfet amp I've used with the M3's. I'm listening to Art Pepper as I write these words. He has never sounded so "in the room." More truthful, pure, and direct than any Mosfet amp I've owned. Bruno's products are typically higher priced. When one can obtain performance superior to the BEST performing Mosfets for a fraction of their typical price, that needs to be considered. Power supply seems to be far less consequential in GanFet designs than claimed here. That's obvious when one considers that the MiniGans offer several hundred watts @ 8 ohms and have NO heatsinks! The old paradigm of enormous power supplies required for the best performance is simply no longer true and getting "untruer" everyday. For those who prefer 25(?) lb amps and heavier, with 10(?) lbs of heatsink, giant 10lb(?) toroids, and a hulking chassis to support it all, have at it. Been there done that.
As to Underwood selling for a few years, perhaps. I don't know how long Walter has been selling these GanFet amps. I don't remember them being in his stable for all that long. Regardless, he's a single store. Most manufacturers are just now starting to pay attention to GanFets. And contrary to Bruno's opinion, as I've posted previously, Michel Jurewicz (sp?) of Mytek, along with other designer/builders I've quoted in this thread, feel that GanFets will provide the most musical platform going forward. I can't help but wonder whether a designer's years of efforts in optimizing Mosfet circuits don't result in some prejudice against GanFets. Maybe - maybe not. No matter. We each get to bring the date of our choice to the party. What a world.
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My sense is that on a theoretical basis, someone will figure out whether GanFet or Purifi has the advantage,,,, meanwhile for the rest of us it’s about execution and how it sounds in your system… which means you gotta try them to know for sure.
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how it sounds in your system… which means you gotta try them to know for sure.
always the case
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we are living in a golden age of amplification when the debate is whether ganfet, purifi or ncore are best. all seem very close in performance and deliver crazy good bang for the buck. no need to spend a lot to get a state of the art amp.
yay!
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Really there is no one advantage over any design, those who buy into the low-priced Class D products will swear by them, and others who love tubes will swear by them folks who like solid state gear A and A/B love them. My joke is whatever we now own is the best until the next piece of gear comes along. I stop following hype and trends a long time ago because they will always be another and another and another, its called marketing creating a need for change, in the golden ERA it was oh if you think that sounded good wait till you hear our new upgrade version, Audio Research made a killing with their customers as soon as you brought say an SP6, update one was released, Mk1, then 2,3,4, etc. At some point, it turned off its customers.
Buy what you like but look for a company with long experience, known build quality, service after the sale, and a product that holds resale value because until we retire from this hobby or get old and wiser we will change gear from time to time and have some value in what we sell helps to pay for the new piece of gear to me that matters and over the many years I own gear that I never could of without having help in resale of my gear, unlimited funds I have not. In 40 years I never heard any change that was night and day better, different perspective of the sound yes, perhaps more authority in the bass, more relaxed midrange, more highs, and less bass, etc. Speakers yes, they can really give you more and better. Hearing Quad ESL57 was jaw-dropping never had I sat there transfixed, music just flowed in tone, color, and dynamics of each instrument, and many speakers today cannot accomplish that at 20K and up, they play louder, but that is not the same as presenting the performance as on the recordings,
Class D very clean and fast is the general trait. Could be what will be purchased by the newer audio buyer at some point, mass made stiff will go that way for sure, it is cheap to make, Emotiva went that way years ago, with lots of power on the cheap, plus lightweight. The Best amp used a 52lb transformer, class d module with power supply weight in a 5lbs. Same power, but a different sound, so they market power, vs. price and less weight. So a really good thing for that buyer. Some say that PS Audio and others do nothing more than buy the class modules and put them in a case, well that is not true they may buy the Purfi, Hyperx, and ICE, but they design their own circuits and power supplies around, Jeff Rowland as his own designers for his class D gear. If anyone does that it would be the mom-and-pop companies, not the big boys thus the price difference. But it is good to have affordable gear. Even Digital Amplifier Company until Tommy passed built his own power supplies and circuits his good stuff was not cheap and for a good reason, it costs to build them right. But he had cheap ones also.
Tubes imaging, midrange, and nice highs, good mid-bass, and bass, 3D feel with good tube gear that sounds like tube gear, not the tube gear that tries to sound like SS. I grew up with tubes, my learning was with tubes and my ear education was with tubes and great recordings. But I use SS today. No hassles with tubes changing, and for me tube rolling, drove me nuts...smile!
Solid State has deep bass, good midrange, and extended highs, Imaging is good but not as dimensional as tubes, can sound drier and at times by design very relaxed and more liquid, all depending on its design. Jeff Rowland Pass, Mark Levinson, and Krell all advanced what SS could sound like and beat tubes in some ways but the 2 shall never meet and that is due to how both reproduce the signals.
I have found power cords that do much of the same as changing say the amp, so I own several good ones of different brands and models, if I want my amp to change I swap cords till I feel that is the best match for that amp, if I buy another amp I go through my power cords again to find the best match. If you have a good system anything you add to it you will hear a change no matter what you use, try 4 firm apples under say your DAC or preamp it will sound different the same as with any tweek you can buy, the sound does change, that is a given. Power cords impact the power supply of our gear and to me, they are so valuable. Don't change gear change your power cords.
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Geez, Big, that was a mouthful...
Bottom line -- Class D is Class D. There's nothing revolutionary about 'em (I thought so until I replaced my Purifi amp with a tube amp :o). The Class D technologies all impart the same sonic characteristics. Plus, you need to dump a ton more money into a Class D design to get them to sound high-end. The same is true for any other amp type.
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Geez, Big, that was a mouthful...
Bottom line -- Class D is Class D. There's nothing revolutionary about 'em (I thought so until I replaced my Purifi amp with a tube amp :o). The Class D technologies all impart the same sonic characteristics. Plus, you need to dump a ton more money into a Class D design to get them to sound high-end. The same is true for any other amp type.
40 years worth....smile!
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:D well I gave a listen to this little amp the other night. Dig and vinyl spinning variable and 33 1/3 rpm. I was going to A-B with my big monster Pass 250 but that thing is broken and needs a tune.. not fair but with my power hungry speakers I can only imagine the outcome. For the little cash outlay this little guy is pretty dam good. For critical evidence listening it's ok to be sure. For a small office system or if your speakers are efficient this little fella holds its weight class very well. I'll get my Pass across the water to the mainland and tuned up. Then I can A-B these on a fair playground. I still want to buy a decent tube amp for the Spatial speakers I have in the waiting room. That will be interesting. Not sure what to buy for a tube amp ? Can't wait two years for a build,, good lord who does that ? Those guys are seriously hard core patient. :D
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:D well I gave a listen to this little amp the other night. Dig and vinyl spinning variable and 33 1/3 rpm. I was going to A-B with my big monster Pass 250 but that thing is broken and needs a tune.. not fair but with my power hungry speakers I can only imagine the outcome. For the little cash outlay this little guy is pretty dam good. For critical evidence listening it's ok to be sure. For a small office system or if your speakers are efficient this little fella holds its weight class very well. I'll get my Pass across the water to the mainland and tuned up. Then I can A-B these on a fair playground. I still want to buy a decent tube amp for the Spatial speakers I have in the waiting room. That will be interesting. Not sure what to buy for a tube amp ? Can't wait two years for a build,, good lord who does that ? Those guys are seriously hard core patient. :D
If it were me, I'd buy a used Cary tube amp. The SLI 80 or the newer CAD-120S would both be a good match, IMO.
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Interesting to note that those of us who find GanFets superior in sound quality to tubes or SS, must be falling for marketing schtick or the newest thing. I guess over 35 years of owning tube products, and high quality SS, doesn't immunize me from marketing. I guess I just can't hear the difference and I must want this inexpensive GanFet product because, well, I only have 4 pair of high quality tube monoblocks in the house. Oh well, grateful to be educated...
Only buy from long lived companies? I guess I'll try to get rid of my M3's. How about LTA or Don Sachs or.... Probably should never have purchased my George Wright 2A3 monos, some of the finest sounding tube amps I've owned. Resale value? That's comical in the high end. For those us who've been buying/selling used for years, we know that, except for truly classic gear, the depreciation of high end kit, just walking out the door of the stereo shop (what's that?) is obscene. Yes, some pieces hold their value better than most, but it's a handful of pieces that retain anything greater than 60% or so of their MSRP post-sale.
Likewise, I guess nothing revolutionary about a 5 lb amp that, to my ears, and apparently others as well, equals or surpasses in sound quality any amp I've owned and with an over 80% efficiency, etc., etc. The next time you pay shipping costs for repair of your big SS amp, you might rethink that sentiment.
You get what you pay for? Whatever that means, I find it just plain silly. I've written previously about a high end marque that used, in a $4,000 transport, an $18 ASUS drive (which incidentally broke every year for the almost three years I owned the transport). Great fun shipping the unit back/forth (until I just bought the drives myself off Amazon and replaced them myself). I remember when my Levinson 590 CD player drawer broke, twice over 3 years, and gosh Levinson only charged several hundred dollars to replace it on top of the shipping costs to and fro each time. Glad that player only cost several thousand dollars. I won't mention the many crap x-over parts and drivers in various expensive speaker lines I've owned. Likewise, the mediocre parts in amps costing upwards of $5K, etc., etc. The only thing high price reliably demonstrates is high price. It should be the case that high price connotes better quality parts, construction, and the like but too often it's not. And, yet, in the same breath I hear complaining about AR! That "disconnect" should demonstrate the fallibility of such generalizations. If I wanted to name examples of high priced kit that uses embarrassingly cheap parts I could easily do so but I think it's in bad taste.
In all, the generalizations about high price connoting quality or reliability, or longevity of the enterprise equals security in ownership, or whatever, seem overblown. I've never enjoyed a system like I currently do using the MiniGan monos and M3's with, oh no, another small short-lived company Schiit's Freya+. Hell, I'm really in trouble here because my DAC is an Okto Research, another short-lived foreign enterprise producing a revolutionary product which John Atkinson concluded was one of the best measuring DAC's he's seen and the equal of the $15,000 MBL (but I guess at 1/10 the price of the MBL, it just can't be competitive in quality...) I won't even dare to comment on my Jay's Audio CDT2-MKIII which simply blows away the far more expensive transports I've owned (@ $2,500). I'm grateful to own the courage and curiosity to try other than the usual high priced fare... It's been the most gratifying part of my audio experience over the last almost 40 years.
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Interesting to note that those of us who find GanFets superior in sound quality to tubes or SS, must be falling for marketing schtick or the newest thing. I guess over 35 years of owning tube products, and high quality SS, doesn't immunize me from marketing. I guess I just can't hear the difference and I must want this inexpensive GanFet product because, well, I only have 4 pair of high quality tube monoblocks in the house. Oh well, grateful to be educated...
I don't see that anyone is saying that. Tyson also bought the amp and tried it out. Tastes do differ. As they say (in code) YMMV.
I bought the MiniGaN 5 and I continue to listen to it. I love it with my KEFs but unfortunately, there isn't a place for that system for me. I tried it with other speakers and I didn't hear the magic I heard with the KEFs. The X5s already have an extra amp for the woofer so that may be the big difference between my speakers and the Sapphire M3s. The MiniGaN 5 are bringing out more bass than I've heard from the KEF LS50 Metas. Didn't work for the Nola Boxer S3s though. Again, probably more a synergy thing.
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IF I misread the "marketing" schtik content to mean that somehow marketing can instigate approval borne of short term infatuation or thrall to mystery/new, anything other than a fair hearing, then it's my bad and I graciously apologize. And sincerely so. I read the comment to implicitly suggest that those of us hopping on the GanFet bandwagon may be susceptible to marketing or the newest thing or... anything but a straightforward and honest listen... And as Daryl Z observes, I've only ever been speaking about the M3's although I'm using a pair of MiniGans upstairs (Merlin VSM's) and so far, for about the last 2 months, I have no desire to put the tubes back in. So again, no offense was meant and my apology if I misstated anyone's position. I don't want to do that. But I do want to: dispel what I see as myth; support the small and often artisnal maker; and declare value, true value, where I find it, particularly when it may not be widely appreciated.
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I think some are taking my comments too personally. I said each design has its fans. Buy what you like. But the facts are looked inside many class D amps and you don't see much thus the cost is much lower and it should be. Look inside other class D amps that are really built out with huge power supplies that cost more by far. I had one at $16,000 and for its class, it sounded as it should, but not better than my past gear. But it was good if you liked that sound I did not, so what? if you do that is a great buy it and enjoy it. I can say it sounded nothing like good tube gear same as solid-state gear when they claim that, that is marketing. And any company markets what they sell as better than the rest. Buzzwords are part of marketing and marketing is done to get you to buy, that is just a fact.
Product life span is planned by companies, so they freshen up and say our newest is even better, be it a TT, power amp, or power conditioner. The hit speaker now being pushed on YouTube is the MoFi speaker, think all those reviews are by chance? nope, but that is how it should be and it does not lessen the product, but do you really think they won't promote interest and sales, of course. No different than the interest in GAIN stated at the beginning of this blog many said I will order one so we do influence others by our words and enthusiasm.
I tried the Sapphires M3s with no in-person listen due in part to this site, did they smoke my Quads no, but they can play louder and they sound good but I do miss what the Quads killed at and that was sounding so real and natural but with volume limitations, so like all things in audio a trade-off. In the end, I might own class D amps as I get older due to less weight and decent sound, but I better have a warmer tube preamp in front of it or buy an amp like the PS Audio 1200 that uses a vacuum tube in the input stage and I heard that and it sounds really good but cost a lot more than the amp raved about here and Orchard so I have a choice to make between the 2 designs if I were buying and the PS Audio in my case would most likely win, but my current Levinson A/B amp stays because it works so well with the Spatial, Quads and even my Dynaudio Confidence speakers, all different in design and sound.
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:D 16,000.00 ? Holy smokes. When your older and play a little softer I think tubes are cool. The new ones are built way better. You could buy 16 of these little guys for that. Wowwww :D
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Yes, a lot of money but folks swear by them.
https://www.merrillaudio.net/element-114-power-amplifier-monoblocks/
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=248245)
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I think some are taking my comments too personally. I said each design has its fans. Buy what you like. But the facts are looked inside many class D amps and you don't see much thus the cost is much lower and it should be. Look inside other class D amps that are really built out with huge power supplies that cost more by far. I had one at $16,000 and for its class, it sounded as it should, but not better than my past gear. But it was good if you liked that sound I did not, so what? if you do that is a great buy it and enjoy it. I can say it sounded nothing like good tube gear same as solid-state gear when they claim that, that is marketing. And any company markets what they sell as better than the rest. Buzzwords are part of marketing and marketing is done to get you to buy, that is just a fact.
Product life span is planned by companies, so they freshen up and say our newest is even better, be it a TT, power amp, or power conditioner. The hit speaker now being pushed on YouTube is the MoFi speaker, think all those reviews are by chance? nope, but that is how it should be and it does not lessen the product, but do you really think they won't promote interest and sales, of course. No different than the interest in GAIN stated at the beginning of this blog many said I will order one so we do influence others by our words and enthusiasm.
I tried the Sapphires M3s with no in-person listen due in part to this site, did they smoke my Quads no, but they can play louder and they sound good but I do miss what the Quads killed at and that was sounding so real and natural but with volume limitations, so like all things in audio a trade-off. In the end, I might own class D amps as I get older due to less weight and decent sound, but I better have a warmer tube preamp in front of it or buy an amp like the PS Audio 1200 that uses a vacuum tube in the input stage and I heard that and it sounds really good but cost a lot more than the amp raved about here and Orchard so I have a choice to make between the 2 designs if I were buying and the PS Audio in my case would most likely win, but my current Levinson A/B amp stays because it works so well with the Spatial, Quads and even my Dynaudio Confidence speakers, all different in design and sound.
I used a tube preamp in front of the LSA GanFET 350 through Cube Nenuphar Mini's and it was excellent.
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I used a tube preamp in front of the LSA GanFET 350 through Cube Nenuphar Mini's and it was excellent.
LSA makes some good stuff and builds well, no need to tear it apart and put better parts in it.
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I've rehooked up the X5s to the LTA Z40+ integrated and I do think it is much better. Sitting 3 feet away from the speakers, they disappear again.
I do like the Freya + and MiniGaN 5 with the KEFS. I experimented with a speaker I gave to my daughter, Quad S1s and they also sound really nice with the Freya + and the MiniGan 5 so she is keeping those. So I have to figure out where they go.
I have a fourth system for a TV set in my bedroom. It might encourage me to play more music there. I first have to get a DAC with bluetooth to deal with all of the digital connections. I don't want to spend a bunch of money on this. Any suggestions? Mainly will play bluetooth music and digital input from a TV/Satellite. So it can be small.
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Doesn't iFi sell and inexpensive Bluetooth DAC?
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I got a little Sabaj DAC for my TV system and Bluetooth duties and have been happy with it.
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Thanks for the suggestions.
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Note mine is the original Sabaj A20d, not the 2022 version. The 2022 version has a built-in power supply, but the original had a cheap outboard wall wart power supply. I've been using mine with an HDPlex linear power supply instead, and it is a significant uptick in sound quality vs the cheap wall wart. Not sure how decent the 2022 version's internal power supply is, but it's an SMPS and might not sound as good as a decent outboard linear power supply such as an HDPlex.
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Note mine is the original Sabaj A20d, not the 2022 version. The 2022 version has a built-in power supply, but the original had a cheap outboard wall wart power supply. I've been using mine with an HDPlex linear power supply instead, and it is a significant uptick in sound quality vs the cheap wall wart. Not sure how decent the 2022 version's internal power supply is, but it's an SMPS and might not sound as good as a decent outboard linear power supply such as an HDPlex.
Power supplies make any gear sound great or just OK. The bigger the power supply the better the sound.
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here is an article with tech info about ganfet (and purifi) amp technology. unlike most of us on this thread, the author does not care too much about the fine nuances of sound as long as the overall sound is excellent (what a concept!), but dives into the technologies themselves
https://audioxpress.com/article/fresh-from-the-bench-a-tale-of-two-class-d-amplifiers-orchard-audio-bosc-and-purifi-audio-eigentakt-eval1
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One interesting thing from this article...and Ralph talks about this frequently.... how a rising distortion with frequency can result in harshness...The Orchard Audio amp (now called the Starkcrimson monoblock) was substantially better in this regard than the Purifi.
For what it is worth, Leo publishes more numbers about his products than almost anyone...here is a link to this amp, scroll midway down.
https://orchardaudio.com/starkrimson_technology_specs/
I spent a week with this amps bigger sibling, the Starkcrimson Ultra...specs near the bottom of the page...absolutely zero harshness or sibilance but a very, very open and spacious top end.
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I've suspected that the issues raised by RonN5, i.e., lower distortion at higher frequencies, and, in fact, lower distortion overall with GanFets relative to Mosfets, may be the reason I now enjoy listening at higher volume and for longer periods than pre-GanFet. I've previously noted how trumpet, as it ascends register and volume, remains utterly musical. It can scream but never offend (turn strident, edgy or glaring). Piano also seems to exhibit a greater delicacy. When listening to Wes M., Herb E., Kenny B., Barney K., and other jazz guitarists, string tone has a translucence I just don't recall hearing from any other topology. No tube, SS, or the Bel Canto eRef 600's, (Mosfet class D) and all excellent amps, seemed to exhibit the luminous string tone apparent with GanFets.
I keep second guessing myself and fantasizing that one morning I'll come downstairs, fire up the MiniGans and, after slapping myself on the forehead, wonder, "how could I ever have thought that these toy amps were the equals, let alone superior, to my other far more expensive tube or SS kit?" Just hasn't happened.
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I used a tube preamp in front of the LSA GanFET 350 through Cube Nenuphar Mini's and it was excellent.
Got to give this guy a bump here. This is a giveaway
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649915419-lsa-gan-350-amp-free-shipping/
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Hint… if you want to sell something…. Post Better Pictures!!
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Hint… if you want to sell something…. Post Better Pictures!!
Not mine it belongs to the member I quoted above. Like you I don't play around I own the Starkrimson Ultra :thumb:
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Sorry Charles...that was not meant for you :nono: ...but hoping you might pass it along to the seller :lol:
No question...the Ultra is a great amp!
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Got to give this guy a bump here. This is a giveaway
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649915419-lsa-gan-350-amp-free-shipping/
there are at least five LSA Voyager 350s for sale on the used market right now. not sure why that is, but having so many out there is likely hampering the sales of any of them, as potential buyers can wait for prices to start dropping (supply/demand).
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Sorry Charles...that was not meant for you :nono: ...but hoping you might pass it along to the seller :lol:
No question...the Ultra is a great amp!
A little plug for Ron
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649936816-spatial-audio-m3-sapphires-beautiful-finish-even-better-sound/
Fantastic photographer :thumb:
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Those M3s look tempting as does Tyson's X3s but I DON'T NEED ANY MORE SPEAKERS. (That's my mantra now).
In fact, I don't really need much else unless some cable or interconnect great deal appears.
Back to the OP, as I have stated a few times, the MiniGaN 5 were fantastic with my KEF LS50s but not so much with other speakers. I have decided to keep the amp along with the Schiit Freya + (as if I have a choice for that one other than trying to sell it) and use is as a 3rd or 4th system in the bedroom where it will play TV and Bluetooth music. I am getting the Cambridge Audio DACmagic 200 (off of Cambridge Audio's ebay site where you can buy factory refurbished items for a good discount) so that I can deal with the digital inputs that the Freya won't take and use a balanced interconnect Cambridge Audio >Freya +>MiniGaN. Plus I won't have to change inputs since everything will be on a single input.
So thanks to the OP for raising this which obviously was of big interest given the length of the thread and the number of posters/posts. Also, it really reminds me of how great this community is that basically every post was informative and there were no angry reactive posts that I see almost everywhere else.
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"there were no angry reactive posts that I see almost everywhere else"
[/quote]
We should start a poll - what are the top 5 things that make you the angriest when people give their impressions of audio equipment?