AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Single Driver, Wide-Bandwidth Speakers => Topic started by: PeterKK on 2 Jul 2020, 05:22 am
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Hi all,
This is one thought/observation I wanted to get perspective one. When dealing with “difficult” to reproduce music (eg symphonic classical), where a single driver needs to cope with playing higher and lower frequencies at the same time, is it fair to say that at lower volumes the driver can do that more easily (as the cone doesn’t have to stretch so much) vs a higher volume where the cone stretches while reproducing a number of different frequencies? Again, I’m not arguing that single-drivers can’t play loud (they can), I’m saying whether when they are playing very demanding material a lower volume actually is easier and can deliver a better result.
Thanks for your thoughts!
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Lots of "hand waving" in your inquiry. Extended range drivers provide wonderful coherence (image specificity and soundstage resolution) due to lack of a crossover and different drivers being used (even if of the same type or coaxially located), but they have the toughest job in audio to try accurately producing the full human frequency range at a wide range of volumes or spls (sound pressure levels). Naturally they make for excellent extended midrange drivers - I run 8 inch whizzerless extended range drivers, rated 30-20,000 Hz with subwoofers and ambience tweeters.
In theory drivers operating within their intended design parameters shouldn't "stretch" (or flex), the ideal is pure pistonic action. Any flexing produces distortions. Extended range drivers tend to have quite limited specified "X max" (maximum rated travel) which would limit ultimate bass output prior to distorting. Generally speaking any driver performs better at low spls. Note that at extreme spls thermal compression limits performance too, which is why many top end speakers use professional sound reinforcement woofers and horn loaded tweeters.
"Loud" is another subjective adjective, suggest getting a spl meter or smart phone application. Most audiophiles I know do critical listening an average of about 80 dB. Orchestral/symphonic and jazz peaks at 105 dB, rock at roughly 110 dB. Realize that power (wattage) is in a logarithmic relationship to spls (dB). So wattage goes by a factor of 10 for every 10 dB increase which translates into 300 times the wattage to reach 105 dB and 1,000 times the power to reach 110 dB from a reference 80 dB level. Of course music is a series of peaks, classical about 30 dB, jazz about 20 dB, rock about 10 dB, so you can understand the strain drivers are under at higher spls.
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Do single-driver speakers sound better in lower volumes?
Probably yes, large orchestral music needs big cone FR drivers.
If you want hi SPL from a FR driver you can use a pro-audio driver, Iam not at par the latest releases in that area but this an example below, one good Ferrite 12'' FR drivers for the job, put the shame many Hi-Fi FR drivers. Other option for large orchestral music are big cone 15'' FR drivers as Lii F15 or AN Super15Ferrite in a big BR box.
https://www.beyma.com/en/products/c/full-range/112GA508/altavoz-12ga50-8-oh/
Power capacity 250 W AES
Program power 500 W
Sensitivity 102 dB 1 W @ 1m @ 2π
Frequency range 70-18000 Hz
QTS 1.16
(https://www.beyma.com/resizer/?img=speakers/G_imagenes/beyma-speakers-graph-full-range-12GA50.jpg&format=detail)
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Lots of "hand waving" in your inquiry. Extended range drivers provide wonderful coherence (image specificity and soundstage resolution) due to lack of a crossover and different drivers being used (even if of the same type or coaxially located), but they have the toughest job in audio to try accurately producing the full human frequency range at a wide range of volumes or spls (sound pressure levels). Naturally they make for excellent extended midrange drivers - I run 8 inch whizzerless extended range drivers, rated 30-20,000 Hz with subwoofers and ambience tweeters.
Thanks a lot for your reply. I’m really taken with single driver speakers: the experience I’m getting is ahead of anything I’ve experienced with multi-drivers and their benefits far outweight their shortcoming. I think as you say 80db is more than sufficient for most things, a lot of times what I find myself doing is increasing the volume to augment for lower bass output (I’ve also worked with speaker placement and near field listening which I felt helped). I’ve also gotten a subwoofer but I’m a bit skeptical about using it as I’m afraid of losing some of the immediacy and purity of the sound I’m getting (and in a way I feel it goes against the very principle of single drivers. Do you feel that subwoofer is a good way for supporting the low end without jeopardizing sound quality? Any perspective/thoughts much appreciated!
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Do single-driver speakers sound better in lower volumes?
Probably yes, large orchestral music needs big cone FR drivers.
That’s really interesting: so you feel that bigger drivers is the way to go for classical music. I have gone a bit on a different direction: from the beginning I liked the “speed” of smaller drivers, so stayed away from bigger drivers. I had auditioned some larger single-driver speakers that I didn’t like so on my mind I started to shape the thought that it’s more difficult to get an optimum performance out of a bigger driver (the bigger it gets the more difficult to cope with such a wide range of frequencies, while potentially a smaller one can cope - the ultimate example being headphones). Having said that there is no question in my mind for the benefits of a larger driver to convey the impact & presence of classical music (potentially also helping the low-end), but wondering whether you feel it can deliver with the same level of quality as a small driver can, or it is more a matter of implementation? If a smaller driver is sufficient for my needs is it still worth to pursue a larger one? Cheers!
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Thanks a lot for your reply. I’m really taken with single driver speakers: the experience I’m getting is ahead of anything I’ve experienced with multi-drivers and their benefits far outweight their shortcoming. I think as you say 80db is more than sufficient for most things, a lot of times what I find myself doing is increasing the volume to augment for lower bass output (I’ve also worked with speaker placement and near field listening which I felt helped). I’ve also gotten a subwoofer but I’m a bit skeptical about using it as I’m afraid of losing some of the immediacy and purity of the sound I’m getting (and in a way I feel it goes against the very principle of single drivers. Do you feel that subwoofer is a good way for supporting the low end without jeopardizing sound quality? Any perspective/thoughts much appreciated!
Yes, adding sub(s) helps sound quality. If bass signal is diverted from the extended range driver (hesitate to call any driver "full range" to avoid quibbles) it will make the job of that driver "easier" (lower distortions). And of course you can adjust the bass. If crossed over low enough you can't located the sub(s). But more importantly the use of carefully placed multiple subs is the best way to address the huge bass peaks/dips which every residentially sized room has. Suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition as it's the consummate audiophile primer for understanding how speakers behave in-room. He's well respected and his writing reflects the latest acoustical thinking.
Decades ago Fletcher and Munson demonstrated that the human ear is most sensitive to midrange frequencies at lower sound pressure levels and thus one level loudness switches were added to most preamps to compensate. Now-a-days purists have unfortunately driven them (and equally useful tone controls) from nearly all components, so many compensate by turning up the volume. I used to be a very committed purist, stubbornly sticking to my single driver speakers, used EQ instead of baffle step circuits, had balanced mono-block power amps, and not speaker cable binding posts (ran the cables directly to the drivers). Why not try the sub?
Many multi-driver designs don't provide coherence except for far-field listening which after listening mid-field for years sounds to me like the performance seem like it's "over there" (remote).
I use (3) 10 inch subs in a well proportioned (8ft x 13ft x 21ft), well insulated, dedicated room. Found the typical 4th sub found in subwoofer "swarms" unnecessary. BTW to me the room is the second most important and most ignored "component." They are located 12 inches from the front right corner, 31 inches from the front left corner, and roughly midway along the left side wall. Tried crossing the subs at 80 Hz but preferred 60 Hz. The setup is midfield (about 10ft apart, 7ft from the listener, and toed in to cross 18 inches in front of the listener - similar to what is recommended by many for controlled directivity speakers). Together with ambience tweeters they produce the most satisfying sound I've ever had.
Am a believer that bass is foundational for good sound and basic for high fidelity. Bass is best produced from along the walls/corners versus mids/highs that are best produced away from walls/corners (except for specialty speakers). So the premise of full range speakers is flawed, besides being heavy/bulky and hard to ship/resell. Besides towers are hard to ignore/gain WAF for, and can't be vertically adjusted for individual listening heights.
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Hi Peter,
I have no listened the Lii F15 but there is no complaint on it on the Decware site, they said it does not have the usual shout on the 2-6kHz range, this is something new in big cones a great advance. There are several big cones drivers from AN that have no response under 100Hz, you should avoid these speakers.
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an12classicspecs.jpg
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an15classicalnicospecs.jpg
bigger drivers is the way to go for classical music.
No to all classical repertoire, only to large orchestral music or heavy rock, a string quartet could benefit from a small 6'' driver due the musical treble content, the Alpair 7 can reach 30kHz and fall out at 40kHz but not efficient only 86dB:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=211387)
but wondering whether you feel it can deliver with the same level of quality as a small driver can, or it is more a matter of implementation?
My personal view are that 12/15'' have great sound quality under 400Hz or so and 6'' and smaller drivers have great quality above 800Hz, that said maybe could be that drivers between 8/10 '' are the middle way that can run both, mine are this 10'' why it appear a nice offer at the time. Implementation is always important but personally I think that in small drivers it is more critical unless they run OB.
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an10classicalnicospecs.jpg
If a smaller driver is sufficient for my needs is it still worth to pursue a larger one?
I cant really say, it was already difficult to choose for myself, but its clear that you have 3 options:
-Small cones 6'' and smaller
- Mid cones 8 to 10''
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an10classicalnicospecs.jpg
- Big cones 12 and 15''
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Hi Peter,
I wanted a full range speaker that can play instruments and vocals faithfully at low volume. I have very senstive hearing so I listen at low volumes.
I found a post which directed me to the charneyaudio.com website. After reading how these speakers handle bass frequency and the testimonials, I was sold. I ended up purchasing the Maestro speaker with a very efficient Voxativ AC-16 driver without auditioning. I listen in a small room at nearfield distance 55".
I have been listening to the speakers for one day and here are my initial observations listening at low volume guessing around 35-45db:
1. Faithfully reproduces instruments (pianos, guitar, drums)
2. The soft pop vocals need more burn-in time.
3. With such an efficient speaker, my EL34 55-watt generated too much background hiss and caused my ears to clog.
4. I switched to a spare cheap Tri-Path amp and the background hiss is almost gone and the music is not affecting my ears. In my case, the tube amp will be replaced by a class D amp either DAC or Orchard Audio. These amps are dead quiet which would be perfect for my low volume listening.
Brian is a craftsman with his woodworking skills.
I am not associated or affiliated with Brian at charneyaudio.com but I am happy to find a speaker which fits my needs.
Jeff
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drivers operating within their intended design parameters shouldn't "stretch" (or flex), the ideal is pure pistonic action. Any flexing produces distortions.
This is certainly oft stated as a desire. No FR loudspeaker does this. A FR at some point has to transition from pistonic behaviouer to a chaotic mode. If this is not well controlled you get the oft seen higher frequency breakups evidenced by peaks and dips in the response. Ideally the chaotic behaviour is well controlled with a complete sessation of the outer part of the cone radiating and all the output coming from a smaller & smaller part of the inner cone producing all the sound. The best FR drivers are getting closer & closer to that ideal.
DMLs are at the extreme of this, where their entire output is based on chaotic behaviour.
Typically limitations of FR drivers are a trade offs between frequency extension, dispersion and how loud they can play before they start losing it. A larger cone (has the potential) to go lower and louder at the expense of midTop, really small ones cannot go low of play loud but can have spectacular mid/top performance. The sweet spot is likely 4-6.5” but there are a few outdtanding 8” (The F200A being one of those). I have yet to here a larger one that is to my liking. Of course the details of the driver (particularily, cone shape and composition and the dustcap) pay a huge role in how well it does.
Because they are not so stressed at lower volumes they are more capable of playing complex materials, as things get loud with dense”material one starts running into the limits of a FR driver.
The best of both worlds can be had with a WAW (Woofer Assisted Wideband), where the XO is low enuff thatthe coherence of the FR is maintained, and most of the “evils” of XOs. Releived of bass, the FR does not struggle and actually does midTop better and the bass extension comes down to how capable (the usually pricier) the bass parts are. Active systems are much more common, easier, and often cheaper than a passive system.
dave
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I’ve also gotten a subwoofer but I’m a bit skeptical about using it as I’m afraid of losing some of the immediacy and purity of the sound I’m getting
Getting a typical subwoofer to meld with a FR is often very difficult. One needs woofers that have decent HF extension. Of the ones i have successfully used have used the least exyended has reached smoothly to 1.7 kHz, but the others have reached 5k typically and one to 10k (but with somewhat limited loudness capability, but still enuff to staisfy most people). I figure multiple subs (aka atmosphere generator) can then be used below that 94-60 Hz) to fill in the extreme bass, deal with at least some room artifacts and deal with the explosions & train crashes.
dave
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Re the Charneys. This brings up the point that a good horn (or welll done TL) can provide more gain at the bottom end that allows for a FR to go lower & louder. The compromise is that a typical good horn or TL is not small.
It is very interesting to see the look on people’s faces listeing to the 3” FF85wk or Alpair 5.2/3 playing in a Frugel-Horn Lite when the drums come in on something like the Czech Film Orchestra heavy drum tracks. They don’t really go that low, but do an amazing job of the 1st fundemental which tricks you into thinking they can.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/275897-frugel-horn-lite-3-drivers.html
(https://www.frugal-horn.com/images/FH-Lite-protosS.jpg)
dave
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Hi Peter,
I wanted a full range speaker that can play instruments and vocals faithfully at low volume. I have very senstive hearing so I listen at low volumes.
I found a post which directed me to the charneyaudio.com website. After reading how these speakers handle bass frequency and the testimonials, I was sold. I ended up purchasing the Maestro speaker with a very efficient Voxativ AC-16 driver without auditioning. I listen in a small room at nearfield distance 55".
I have been listening to the speakers for one day and here are my initial observations listening at low volume guessing around 35-45db:
1. Faithfully reproduces instruments (pianos, guitar, drums)
2. The soft pop vocals need more burn-in time.
3. With such an efficient speaker, my EL34 55-watt generated too much background hiss and caused my ears to clog.
4. I switched to a spare cheap Tri-Path amp and the background hiss is almost gone and the music is not affecting my ears. In my case, the tube amp will be replaced by a class D amp either DAC or Orchard Audio. These amps are dead quiet which would be perfect for my low volume listening.
Brian is a craftsman with his woodworking skills.
I am not associated or affiliated with Brian at charneyaudio.com but I am happy to find a speaker which fits my needs.
Jeff
Suggest picking up a sound pressure meter or smart phone app. 35-45 dB is barely past background noise. Normal conversation is roughly 70 dB.
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This is certainly oft stated as a desire. No FR loudspeaker does this. A FR at some point has to transition from pistonic behaviouer to a chaotic mode. If this is not well controlled you get the oft seen higher frequency breakups evidenced by peaks and dips in the response. Ideally the chaotic behaviour is well controlled with a complete sessation of the outer part of the cone radiating and all the output coming from a smaller & smaller part of the inner cone producing all the sound. The best FR drivers are getting closer & closer to that ideal.
DMLs are at the extreme of this, where their entire output is based on chaotic behaviour.
dave
What are DML's?
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What are DML's?
NXT speakers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_mode_loudspeaker
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Hi all,
This is one thought/observation I wanted to get perspective one. When dealing with “difficult” to reproduce music (eg symphonic classical), where a single driver needs to cope with playing higher and lower frequencies at the same time, is it fair to say that at lower volumes the driver can do that more easily (as the cone doesn’t have to stretch so much) vs a higher volume where the cone stretches while reproducing a number of different frequencies? Again, I’m not arguing that single-drivers can’t play loud (they can), I’m saying whether when they are playing very demanding material a lower volume actually is easier and can deliver a better result.
Thanks for your thoughts!
IMO if you're really into symphonic, I'd give up on single drivers now... save yourself some grief. Due to various factors they don't play complex music with the same clarity a multi-driver speaker can.
This is coming from a big fan of single drivers, my own speaker uses a single driver based midrange in a horn, and even with it's bass handed over to a 15" woofer at 400 Hz, it's only ok at complex music.
In the past it was difficult to find a multi-way speaker with reasonable coherence without spending big $ but that's not the case these days.
However, I do believe it's the case that single drivers can play at low volumes better than most types of speakers, so if this is important to you it may be a trade-off between low volume performance and ultimate clarity of the reproduction when playing complex music.
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IMO if you're really into symphonic, I'd give up on single drivers now... save yourself some grief. Due to various factors they don't play complex music with the same clarity a multi-driver speaker can.
This is coming from a big fan of single drivers, my own speaker uses a single driver based midrange in a horn, and even with it's bass handed over to a 15" woofer at 400 Hz, it's only ok at complex music.
Hi Dave and thanks for your reply. I listen to a lot of classical music and I’m on a bit of a different page: having owned and listened to a lot of 2-way speakers I clearly prefer the sound I’m getting from single-drivers. For me their immediacy and speed cannot be matched by 2-way systems. They are much better for opera as well as they do voices very realistically. Having said that not all single-driver speakers work for everyone and there are speakers/drivers that cannot deliver across the range and matching with the room and positioning is important (but that’s the case with any speaker). I listen at around the 75-85db range and they play very well. Could you share which 2-ways you would recommend as ideal for classical music? Cheers!
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Typically limitations of FR drivers are a trade offs between frequency extension, dispersion and how loud they can play before they start losing it. A larger cone (has the potential) to go lower and louder at the expense of midTop, really small ones cannot go low of play loud but can have spectacular mid/top performance. The sweet spot is likely 4-6.5” but there are a few outdtanding 8” (The F200A being one of those). I have yet to here a larger one that is to my liking. Of course the details of the driver (particularily, cone shape and composition and the dustcap) pay a huge role in how well it does.
That has been my (rather limited) experience as well exactly as you’re describing it in terms of bigger vs smaller driver performance. Smaller drivers in a design that enhances/amplifies the low-end being a great way to get a balanced across the board performance. I haven’t tried the Fostex 8” but I have heard good things about it, one 8” I’m seriously considering however is the Altec 755: I’m really interested to try it considering it’s reputation, do you have experience and what would you say would be the differences vs a modern driver like the Fostex? Thanks again!
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No to all classical repertoire, only to large orchestral music or heavy rock, a string quartet could benefit from a
My personal view are that 12/15'' have great sound quality under 400Hz or so and 6'' and smaller drivers have great quality above 800Hz, that said maybe could be that drivers between 8/10 '' are the middle way that can run both, mine are this 10'' why it appear a nice offer at the time. Implementation is always important but personally I think that in small drivers it is more critical unless they run OB.
I understand and that’s also my feeling supported by what I’ve heard so far in various setups. 10” might already be too big to play well higher frequencies but there might be 8 inch drivers that work well across the range. There is no question that a bigger driver can play a role on orchestral music but if it can’t deliver the higher frequencies it doesn’t work for me (although it might for other people, I tend to think that we all listen differently).
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Many multi-driver designs don't provide coherence except for far-field listening which after listening mid-field for years sounds to me like the performance seem like it's "over there" (remote).
I use (3) 10 inch subs in a well proportioned (8ft x 13ft x 21ft), well insulated, dedicated room. Found the typical 4th sub found in subwoofer "swarms" unnecessary. BTW to me the room is the second most important and most ignored "component." They are located 12 inches from the front right corner, 31 inches from the front left corner, and roughly midway along the left side wall. Tried crossing the subs at 80 Hz but preferred 60 Hz. The setup is midfield (about 10ft apart, 7ft from the listener, and toed in to cross 18 inches in front of the listener - similar to what is recommended by many for controlled directivity speakers). Together with ambience tweeters they produce the most satisfying sound I've ever had.
Am a believer that bass is foundational for good sound and basic for high fidelity. Bass is best produced from along the walls/corners versus mids/highs that are best produced away from walls/corners (except for specialty speakers). So the premise of full range speakers is flawed, besides being heavy/bulky and hard to ship/resell. Besides towers are hard to ignore/gain WAF for, and can't be vertically adjusted for individual listening heights.
I’m currently experimenting with the subwoofer on 2 different setups (one in a smaller room and one in a larger one) and will report back. I’m not a “bass head” in any way and I prefer a naturally sounding system, but if it can meaningfully improve the sound then I would definitely embrace it. In my case the subwoofer offers only”in” terminals (and no out) so I have connected it in parallel to my main speakers to the amplifier, so the speakers still operate across the range as they did before. The bigger room is a medium/big room (25 sq meters) and I’m listening near field (1.8m between the speakers and me) with the speakers 1m into the room (I have experimented a lot with placement).
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I haven’t tried the Fostex 8” but I have heard good things about it, one 8” I’m seriously considering however is the Altec 755
The Altec has quite the reputation but i hve not heard, or even seen, one. I have sold a few EnABLed FE206eN2. Not the 1st driver i’d go to, but in. abig horn can be very dynamic and are very efficient.
(http://p10hifi.net/FAL/gallery/Images/59.jpg)
In that size my 2 favorites are the SEAS FA22 and the Visaton B200 (but only with phase plugs). Box for the 1st is easy, the 2nd is much more challenging.
My favorite drivers are the Mark Audio, you might look to the Alpair 10p/10.3/11ms. My favorite is actually the smaller 4” A7.3.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?w=800&t=fit&url=www.planet10-hifi.com/kermit/A10PeN-blk-wWhite.jpg)
dave
dave
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Hi Dave and thanks for your reply. I listen to a lot of classical music and I’m on a bit of a different page: having owned and listened to a lot of 2-way speakers I clearly prefer the sound I’m getting from single-drivers. For me their immediacy and speed cannot be matched by 2-way systems. They are much better for opera as well as they do voices very realistically. Having said that not all single-driver speakers work for everyone and there are speakers/drivers that cannot deliver across the range and matching with the room and positioning is important (but that’s the case with any speaker). I listen at around the 75-85db range and they play very well. Could you share which 2-ways you would recommend as ideal for classical music? Cheers!
I wouldn't recommend a 2-way speaker either. The best symphonic reproduction comes from larger 3+ way speakers. IMO, there's no doubt you can get speakers that don't have the same compromises you mention, it's just a question of budget. If you want to play big music with clarity and at realistic levels, it's going to take some cash.
Single drivers offer a hi-fi experience for a lot less cash than many alternatives, but have some additional compromises that work for some tastes but not others, for example the 4.5" single driver that I use can sound amazing on female vocals but it sucks for Led Zeppelin or symphonic music on it's own. Used as a wideband midrange it's far better, but for symphonic the wideband use is the real issue because of IMD and breakup, a 3+ way speaker using hard-cone materials is much better. For example, YG, Magico, Revel, TAD, Focal, etc...
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Single drivers offer a hi-fi experience for a lot less cash than many alternatives, but have some additional compromises that work for some tastes but not others, for example the 4.5" single driver that I use can sound amazing on female vocals but it sucks for Led Zeppelin or symphonic music on it's own. Used as a wideband midrange it's far better, but for symphonic the wideband use is the real issue because of IMD and breakup, a 3+ way speaker using hard-cone materials is much better. For example, YG, Magico, Revel, TAD, Focal, etc...
I've been dissapointed with 2-way speakers and that's what started my interest with single drivers. I'm quite happy with them now and I'm getting a very "you're there" feeling that is really something. Having said I've actually haven't looked into 3-way speakers (as I considered that the even more complicated crossovers would take-away from immediacy), what are a couple of models that you would recommend listening to for classical music? cheers
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The Altec has quite the reputation but i hve not heard, or even seen, one. I have sold a few EnABLed FE206eN2. Not the 1st driver i’d go to, but in. abig horn can be very dynamic and are very efficient.
In that size my 2 favorites are the SEAS FA22 and the Visaton B200 (but only with phase plugs). Box for the 1st is easy, the 2nd is much more challenging.
My favorite drivers are the Mark Audio, you might look to the Alpair 10p/10.3/11ms. My favorite is actually the smaller 4” A7.3.
Thanks a lot for your message Dave. I'm not at all at the level to be able to perform Enabl so it would be off the shelf for me. Would the Seas or the Visaton work on an open baffle? cheers!
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Single drive speakers sound better when playing simple or single instrument music.
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Classical music covers a wide range. Peter, are you thinking symphonic/orchestral/mass choral or chamber/solo performances? Single driver designs are wonderful for the smaller ensembles, not so much for larger ones.
Peter you mentioned having a small room, just how big is it? Rooms are a highly neglected "component" and many audiophiles "over-gear" their given rooms. Most dipole/open baffle or 3-way designs would be ill suited for a really small room. Small rooms also tend to be squarish, so two more strikes against them as they reinforce bass echo problems plus they make fitting room treatments harder.
There is no perfect speaker. Bigger/more complex speakers tend to handle larger ensembles/cover a wider range of frequencies/can produce higher sound pressure levels (spls) better but add crossover issues, mixes types of drivers, and doesn't allow for ideal location from which to propagate bass versus mid/treble frequencies. Smaller/simpler speakers tend to be more coherent, but can't cover the full frequency range or produce high spls. Modern thinking dictates that the best solution is smaller/simpler speakers dedicated to mid/high frequencies plus multiple subwoofers to handle bass and address inherent in-room bass peaks/dips.
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DML's do Jazz and Classical music very well. They are also very cheap to build. DML's do great from 100hz and up and when combined with a powered sub they sound fantastic. Of course its all designed based as the better your design the better the sound.
This is an entry level DML design that most beginners utilize. http://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/dml-flat-pannel/
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Hi Peter,
I wanted a full range speaker that can play instruments and vocals faithfully at low volume. I have very senstive hearing so I listen at low volumes.
I found a post which directed me to the charneyaudio.com website. After reading how these speakers handle bass frequency and the testimonials, I was sold. I ended up purchasing the Maestro speaker with a very efficient Voxativ AC-16 driver without auditioning. I listen in a small room at nearfield distance 55".
I have been listening to the speakers for one day and here are my initial observations listening at low volume guessing around 35-45db:
1. Faithfully reproduces instruments (pianos, guitar, drums)
2. The soft pop vocals need more burn-in time.
3. With such an efficient speaker, my EL34 55-watt generated too much background hiss and caused my ears to clog.
4. I switched to a spare cheap Tri-Path amp and the background hiss is almost gone and the music is not affecting my ears. In my case, the tube amp will be replaced by a class D amp either DAC or Orchard Audio. These amps are dead quiet which would be perfect for my low volume listening.
Brian is a craftsman with his woodworking skills.
I am not associated or affiliated with Brian at charneyaudio.com but I am happy to find a speaker which fits my needs.
Jeff
+1 for Charney Audio
Charney horns are designed on the tractrix theory and deliver at all volume levels. No need to clutter your room with multiple subs, crossovers, and drivers that filter out the intimate goodness of classical music. Just sweet 3D engaging distortion free sound with articulate bass. Depending on room size and budget Charney will set you up right! Charney is located in Somerset NJ and is easy to get to via mass transit or drive.
I own a pair and listen to all types of music, rock-Bach, and am very satisfied! FWIW I have gone through the gamut of multiple subs, monitors, large towers, open baffle, front loaded and rear loaded horns all with room correction. None of them have delivered like the simple Charney set up has. Source, preamp, amp, Charney horns and Done! Another interesting thing with the Charney’s is that minimal room treatments are needed. The more of them I took out of my room the better the sound!
Hope you find what your looking for...
http://charneyaudio.com/
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Maybe the OP could like a sensible more affordable horn as Frugal Horn that Dave suggested or a hi-power handling pro-audio FR driver, the Charney prices are not funny:
$80,000
$85,000
$22,000
$25,000
$28,000
$6,500
$8,900
$12,100
$16,500
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Would the Seas or the Visaton work on an open baffle? cheers!
OB is the 1st choice for the B200. If the baffle is sufficiently large, it is one of the few drivers you can get away without a halper woofer. It does need those phase plugs to deal with the laser-like top end and the rising response.
(http://p10hifi.net/FAL/gallery/Images/72.jpg)
dave
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Hi Dave,
Do you mean say the phase plugs are mandatory after the ENABL?
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Having heard those Visaton’s at Dave’s, (a while back now !) in BIG OB’s, they were very satisfying performers indeed.
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I suggest phase plugs with or without EnABL. All of the ones i shipped had both EnABL & phase plugs. Sonce i am going to be winding down doing EnABL (just no time), if you want EnABLed drivers you are going to have to do them yourself. I am happy to help. Maybe someone will get to the point where they can carry on the service for others.
Given the current state of my ability to build cabinets i might just part with my personal pairs of B200EN2.
dave
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I sorry for these bad news Dave, you have lots of ENABL experience.
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I understand and that’s also my feeling supported by what I’ve heard so far in various setups. 10” might already be too big to play well higher frequencies but there might be 8 inch drivers that work well across the range. There is no question that a bigger driver can play a role on orchestral music but if it can’t deliver the higher frequencies it doesn’t work for me (although it might for other people, I tend to think that we all listen differently).
I listen mainly to classical music and opera as well. Here is my experience although it’s probably limited compared to that of some others.
First I tried full rangers with AN Classic 10” Ferrite drivers in ported enclosures. They were alright, but never completely satisfying with classical music. Always seem to lack fullness and realism.
Next I build a pair of 2-ways. Specifically, Jeff Bagby’s Piccolos with SB Acoustics drivers. I need to pause here for a moment and acknowledge the wonderful contributions Jeff made with his designs for the rest of us. He will certainly be missed.
To me the Piccolo 2-ways sound much better with classical music than the full range ANs. They deliver the music with a fullness and authority that is lacking with the full range drivers. Others may disagree, but that’s my opinion.
I think the reason is the big difference in dynamic range, which is critical for classical music. The single full range drivers just don’t seem to be able to match the 2-ways in that critical area. A 3-way is probably even better.
Full range fans like to point to coherence as being one of their main advantages. However, I haven’t detected any significant lack of coherence with the 2-ways. At least I’m not aware of any, and I think the positives for the 2-ways override any negatives. You don't need a lot of dynamic range for Diana Krall, but you certainly do for Mahler, Tchaikovsky, or Beethoven.
I’m not sure which particularly 2-ways you have tried, but you might find some better than others. I don’t think you can assume that they all sound the same.
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I've had some Caintuck Betsy OB for 4-5 years that have been ENABL'ed and phase-plugged by Dave. I love them for all types of music. I think "large music" actually sounds better through these drivers. It has a purity to it, like it's an anti-discombobulator device or something.
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I've had some Caintuck Betsy OB for 4-5 years that have been ENABL'ed and phase-plugged by Dave. I love them for all types of music. I think "large music" actually sounds better through these drivers. It has a purity to it, like it's an anti-discombobulator device or something.
But does "large music" actually sound better through them because they are OB, or because they are full range? I'm sort of voting for OB to be the answer, and hope to find out soon. My plan for next build is definitely OB. Just need to decide exactly what to do.
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Actually OB would be less capable than a good box. I worked thr a number of OBs and came to the conclusion that people laud them over boxes because there are so many bad boxes out there. By controlling the bass, you have the potential for greater bass levels, less stress down low, greater dynamics and more potential loudness capabilities. In an OB you run into excursion limits sooner.
dave
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Actually OB would be less capable than a good box. I worked thr a number of OBs and came to the conclusion that people laud them over boxes because there are so many bad boxes out there. By controlling the bass, you have the potential for greater bass levels, less stress down low, greater dynamics and more potential loudness capabilities. In an OB you run into excursion limits sooner.
dave
Yeah. I recognize that there are significant bass limitations with OB. Almost mentioned it in my post above, but decided to skip over it instead.
I might find that I need to add a sub or two to get the bass, and if that's the case I'll address it later. Right now my main priority is to get the midrange right along with the total dynamic range, flat frequency response, and low distortions. And I don't see how it's possible to get there with full range drivers.
The reason for OB is to get the large and deep sound stage that I want for symphonic music. I recently heard some Magnepans in a store and it was entirely different from anything I've ever heard coming from boxes. Now I need to hear how it sounds in my house. I'm expecting to like it, but won't really know until I've tried it.
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Maybe the OP could like a sensible more affordable horn as Frugal Horn that Dave suggested or a hi-power handling pro-audio FR driver, the Charney prices are not funny:
$80,000
$85,000
$22,000
$25,000
$28,000
$6,500
$8,900
$12,100
$16,500
The OP never stated a budget range and I find your post to be non-sensible! Please delete it!! No one cares about your opinion for the cost of superior sound!
He actually never asked for a speaker recommendation. He originally wanted to know if full range single drivers had to be played at lower volumes to effectively handle complex classical music. To that end the answer is NO! With the right driver and cabinet design full range single drivers can deliver at normal to loud listening levels.
Chris
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... He originally wanted to know if full range single drivers had to be played at lower volumes to effectively handle complex classical music. To that end the answer is NO! With the right driver and cabinet design full range single drivers can deliver at normal to loud listening levels.
Chris
I’m not sure you can be certain that the answer is NO.
When a full range driver produces low frequencies in the pistonic mode it stretches the surround. And the higher the SPLs the more the stretch, which in turn increases the radial tension on the periphery of the cone.
Now you’re expecting that same cone to breakup in various regions in order to produce the high frequencies. So does the increased tension along its periphery affect the cone’s ability to allow the necessary regions to break up properly? I don’t know the answer, but don’t thing you can assume that there is no effect.
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Thanks a lot for all the replies and very helpful comments, they are much appreciated. You probably have a lot more experience than me experimenting with different speaker configurations and I it’s really helpful to get that perspective. I have 2 full range systems setup in 2 different rooms (1 small and 1 large) and I’m in the process of fine-tuning them + understand their strengths and limitations. Single drivers have a speed and presence that I simply couldn’t find in 2-way speakers and I personally value higher in music presentation vs a flat frequency response. I listen a lot to Symphonic classical as well as modern composers & soundtracks and I really like the presentation. Indeed bass response was limited but the sound was so natural and with such presence that I don’t really mind (the small room setup uses 4” drivers in a ported enclosure that reaches 70hz only, still I felt that the essence of the music was there, something I cannot say for more of the 2-way designs I’ve been exposed to. @jlm I’ve tried adding a subwoofer in both rooms: indeed there was substantial improvement on the bottom end, however I felt that the sound was losing some of the speed and the soundstage was becoming a bit smeared, although I’m sure there are potential orientations that would integrate the subwoofer better ultimately I decided to live with the speakers’ limitations in a simpler setup so I will give-up on trying to make the subwoofer work. Ultimately it’s about what each one values on the way the music is presented and I plan to follow this path further (looking at some of the drivers/configurations suggested in this discussion).
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Just curious which specific 2-way speakers you evaluated in coming to your current conclusion. I'm not disputing for a moment that you like what you're hearing from the full range drivers better than from certain 2-ways. However, all 2-ways do not sound the same. It would be interesting to know specifically which ones you tried. And were these commercially produced finished products or DIY builds.
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Just curious which specific 2-way speakers you evaluated in coming to your current conclusion. I'm not disputing for a moment that you like what you're hearing from the full range drivers better than from certain 2-ways. However, all 2-ways do not sound the same. It would be interesting to know specifically which ones you tried. And were these commercially produced finished products or DIY builds.
Hi, a lot of different speakers, some of them closer to what I was looking for than others. I really didn’t like B&W (603, 805, CDM, 601), Dynaudio (Focus, X32), Triangle, JBL L100 (reissue) and others. The main problem I found was that they sounded quite artificial (excl JBL) and after a bit of listening I started to get tired. On the contrary Harbeth 7ES, BBC LS3/5, Audio Note probably I could live with and Tannoy Coaxial and Quad ESL were super nice (but didn’t fit budget and size requirements). Also I wasn’t impressed with Zu & Heco despite being single drivers (I know the Zus are kind of borderline). Generally I feel that modern speakers are dissapoining
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Hi, a lot of different speakers, some of them closer to what I was looking for than others. I really didn’t like B&W (603, 805, CDM, 601), Dynaudio (Focus, X32), Triangle, JBL L100 (reissue) and others. The main problem I found was that they sounded quite artificial (excl JBL) and after a bit of listening I started to get tired. On the contrary Harbeth 7ES, BBC LS3/5, Audio Note probably I could live with and Tannoy Coaxial and Quad ESL were super nice (but didn’t fit budget and size requirements). Also I wasn’t impressed with Zu & Heco despite being single drivers (I know the Zus are kind of borderline). Generally I feel that modern speakers are dissapoining
Hi Peter, and thanks for that information. It's pretty much what I expected, which is why I asked the question. I haven't listened to all of the various brands that you have heard, but the ones I auditioned a few years ago all sounded bad to me. Those were mainly Klipsch, Monitor Audio, and PSB. That's when I gave up searching and decided to go the DIY route. Your comment that modern speakers are disappointing is very true. Their performance doesn't come any where near matching their cost. The value proposition is terrible.
Now I have a pair of Jeff Bagby's 2-way Piccolos and am totally satisfied with them. Cost was only $400 plus a half sheet of plywood. I'll put them up against any $5,000 per pair commercial 2-way speakers for sound quality and sheer enjoyment. And these aren't the only DIY 2-ways that can delivery that level of sound quality. Many others can do the same.
I don't know if you are prepared to build your own, but if you are you might want to consider some of the very well thought of 2-way kits. The Piccolos are just one of many choices. At about $900 you could consider the Kairos, which uses larger drivers and has received outstanding reviews by those who have built it.
Like you, I listen mainly to classical music and opera. I have also tried single full range drivers. Specifically, AN Classic 10” Ferrites. They are OK, but I don’t think they deliver the richness that is needed with classical music. I think full range drivers can sound very good with jazz and other simple music. But I just don’t think they have got what it takes in the way of frequency response and particularly dynamic range to deliver with classical. At least that's my experience.
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… AN Classic 10” Ferrites…
The ones i heard also had resonance issues higher up that i couldn’t live with.
dave
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The ones i heard also had resonance issues higher up that i couldn’t live with.
dave
I've heard some resonances in mine also, although not really that high up. Still not sure what it is - cabinet or driver.
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I wonder if this is due the Solid State amp?
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Hi Peter, and thanks for that information. It's pretty much what I expected, which is why I asked the question. I haven't listened to all of the various brands that you have heard, but the ones I auditioned a few years ago all sounded bad to me. Those were mainly Klipsch, Monitor Audio, and PSB. That's when I gave up searching and decided to go the DIY route. Your comment that modern speakers are disappointing is very true. Their performance doesn't come any where near matching their cost. The value proposition is terrible.
Now I have a pair of Jeff Bagby's 2-way Piccolos and am totally satisfied with them. Cost was only $400 plus a half sheet of plywood. I'll put them up against any $5,000 per pair commercial 2-way speakers for sound quality and sheer enjoyment. And these aren't the only DIY 2-ways that can delivery that level of sound quality. Many others can do the same.
I don't know if you are prepared to build your own, but if you are you might want to consider some of the very well thought of 2-way kits. The Piccolos are just one of many choices. At about $900 you could consider the Kairos, which uses larger drivers and has received outstanding reviews by those who have built it.
Like you, I listen mainly to classical music and opera. I have also tried single full range drivers. Specifically, AN Classic 10” Ferrites. They are OK, but I don’t think they deliver the richness that is needed with classical music. I think full range drivers can sound very good with jazz and other simple music. But I just don’t think they have got what it takes in the way of frequency response and particularly dynamic range to deliver with classical. At least that's my experience.
+1 for a Jeff Bagby design, I am loving my Continuum ii. Extremely natural sounds, especially on voices and physical instruments. Build any of his bookshelf designs (spirit winds>kairos>continuum in accordance to budget) Add a pair of his passive woofer modules and that should be a keeper system!
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I wonder if this is due the Solid State amp?
How does the amp construction have anything to do with driver resonances?
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How does the amp construction have anything to do with driver resonances?
Transistors amps are know by its odd harmonics mainly Class AB and harsh treble unless desingner are a Nelson Pass. What do you mean say by driver resonance?
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Transistors amps are know by its odd harmonics mainly Class AB and harsh treble unless desingner are a Nelson Pass. What do you mean say by driver resonance?
Well, if you don't understand driver resonance why did you write ... "I wonder if this is due the Solid State amp?" ... right in the middle of a discussion about it?
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Fulleangeman,
It is more complex than saying SS or Tube. Depends a lot on the amp class & the design. Your concern should be more about the amplifiers output impedance and how well it allows for the reproduction of very small details (DDR), ie not mask them.
Typically most SS amps are Class AB with low output impedances, but there are many that are not. And while SE, low/no feedback amps, tend to have fairly high output impedance. PP amps are quite different — usually — since they are also typically Class AB with feedback.
Each amp/speaker system (i tis a system) needs consideration on their own merits.
dave
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Well, if you don't understand driver resonance why did you write ... "I wonder if this is due the Solid State amp?" ... right in the middle of a discussion about it?
You heard this driver in his own room but if you dont know explain what you listen I can imagine the box you made.
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You heard this driver in his own room but if you dont know explain what you listen I can imagine the box you made.
Maybe you can try explaining this again in a different way, but I have no idea what you are trying to say. Or how it possibly relates to a Solid State amp.
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Maybe you can try explaining this again in a different way, but I have no idea what you are trying to say. Or how it possibly relates to a Solid State amp.
It already expected. This driver have the best freq response and cone stiffness of this brand, the cone break-ups are neglegible, being the VAS=180L it require a big floor standing BR box or OB panel, not a pocket mini monitor in a stand.
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an10classicspecs.jpg
Some users experience good results with this driver others dont:
http://www.glowinthedarkaudio.com/audionirvana.html
Running this driver in a small box, minimal stuffed with a SS amp, not a SET tube amp with zero NFB as is usual will results in troubles.
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It already expected. This driver have the best freq response and cone stiffness of this brand, the cone break-ups are neglegible, being the VAS=180L it require a big floor standing BR box or OB panel, not a pocket mini monitor in a stand.
https://commonsenseaudio.com/an10classicspecs.jpg
Some users experience good results with this driver others dont:
http://www.glowinthedarkaudio.com/audionirvana.html
Running this driver in a small box, minimal stuffed with a SS amp, not a SET tube amp with zero NFB as is usual will results in troubles.
I don't know where you are getting information that a solid state amp would be a problem with this driver. Certainly neither of the websites you reference say that it would be a problem or would compromise the sound in any way. You seem to be looking for a problem that doesn't really exist.
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I don't know where you are getting information that a solid state amp would be a problem with this driver. Certainly neither of the websites you reference say that it would be a problem or would compromise the sound in any way. You seem to be looking for a problem that doesn't really exist.
I don't know where you are getting information that a solid state amp would be a problem with this driver.
Looks like Iam an stupe novice in audio, nobody can have knowledge only you, I have been in pro-audio and hi-fi since 1974 in various positions, Iam telling you what equip gives good sound with this speaker but you continue stubborn.
You seem to be looking for a problem that doesn't really exist.
You mentioned your driver have resonance problems, as my driver dont have any problem seems you do something wrong or Iam lying here on this public forum.
Certainly neither of the websites you reference say that it would be a problem or would compromise the sound in any way.
You still insist on a website to endorse audio information.
Have a nice day.
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Looks like Iam an stupe novice in audio
Thanks for clearing up what we already know! :P
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Thanks for clearing up what we already know! :P
Why I rarely frequent this forum after a decade......ad hominem BS
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One more thing to add for anyone considering full range drivers vs. multi-way for classical music.
Complex music, such as classical symphonies, creates doppler distortions when played on a single cone full range. The problem is the main cone is moving back and forth at a slow rate to produce the bass frequencies while at the same time portions of it are vibrating at much higher frequencies. This creates the doppler effect. Much the same as the variation in pitch that you hear when a vehicle siren moves towards you and then away from you.
So when you combine lack of dynamic range, limited frequency response, and doppler effect with full range drivers it makes a very strong case in favor of multi-way speakers for full enjoyment of classical music.
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One more thing to add for anyone considering full range drivers vs. multi-way for classical music.
Complex music, such as classical symphonies, creates doppler distortions when played on a single cone full range. The problem is the main cone is moving back and forth at a slow rate to produce the bass frequencies while at the same time portions of it are vibrating at much higher frequencies. This creates the doppler effect. Much the same as the variation in pitch that you hear when a vehicle siren moves towards you and then away from you.
So when you combine lack of dynamic range, limited frequency response, and doppler effect with full range drivers it makes a very strong case in favor of multi-way speakers for full enjoyment of classical music.
Can't that be said about a lot of music then? Music with a lot going on? A lot of different dynamics throughout?
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Yes.
And doppler distortion is somewhat disputed. A couple hearing text books i have read call it a red herring, but there are people who claim they can hear it.
What is clear that if the music gets too busy, many/mist FR will start to get a bit “confused”. How much is, i guess, related to the listeners sensitivity to it and how lous thigs are being played. In my experience most people listen at quiter levels than others think they should.
dave
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Yes.
And doppler distortion is somewhat disputed. A couple hearing text books i have read call it a red herring, but there are people who claim they can hear it.
What is clear that if the music gets too busy, many/mist FR will start to get a bit “confused”. How much is, i guess, related to the listeners sensitivity to it and how lous thigs are being played. In my experience most people listen at quiter levels than others think they should.
dave
Dave, I think again this has an awful lot to do with the type of music you are listening to and how loud it's played. There are some "industry experts" I've talked to who say that if a speaker sounds good with one type of music it will sound good with all types. I think they are entirely wrong.
The dynamic range necessary for a symphony is much greater than for a jazz singer. And this is where I think the big difference between FR and multi-way comes in. Other things like distortions, etc., also play a role but to a lesser extent.
PeterKK started this discussion based on his search for a good answer for classical music. That's why I keep getting back to this same point about dynamic range.
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You can certainly hear a different kind of distortion becoming audible as excursion increases in single driver speakers that's different from breakup or "shout". Breakup can make the sound harsh and blurry as volume is increased, the doppler distortion is totally different and only audible as excursion reaches xmax. IME, the enabl treatment planet10 does for their drivers improves breakup distortion or "shout" by a massive amount, complex music is much more intelligible and overall clarity at higher SPLs is far, far better. On my own speakers, using a 4.5" driver as a wideband midrange, one of the last hurdles was eliminating shout as volume increased. With a 400 Hz xo it was only an issue at much higher SPL, but it simply wasn't good enough until the drivers were enabl'ed. So in any case, if you do want better SPL and complex music performance with a single driver, I'd go with an enabl'ed 8" driver.
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Dave, I think again this has an awful lot to do with the type of music you are listening to and how loud it's played. There are some "industry experts" I've talked to who say that if a speaker sounds good with one type of music it will sound good with all types. I think they are entirely wrong.
The dynamic range necessary for a symphony is much greater than for a jazz singer. And this is where I think the big difference between FR and multi-way comes in. Other things like distortions, etc., also play a role but to a lesser extent.
PeterKK started this discussion based on his search for a good answer for classical music. That's why I keep getting back to this same point about dynamic range.
I agree. The best driver I've experienced for vocals is probably Feastrex but it can't play symphonic music well.
A big system like the YG Sonja XV might lose out to the Feastrex by a tiny margin on solo female vocals, but not by much and the YG will be far superior with symphonic... imo symphonic on a small single driver is best avoided altogether. :lol:
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Extended range drivers make for excellent midrange drivers. That's how I'm using my Fostex F200a (rated 30-20,000 Hz), with 3 subwoofers and a pair of ambience tweeters.
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Extended range drivers make for excellent midrange drivers. That's how I'm using my Fostex F200a (rated 30-20,000 Hz), with 3 subwoofers and a pair of ambience tweeters.
So it sounds like this is essentially a 3-way system, not just a single driver implementation. But if the F200a goes from 30 to 20,000 Hz why do you need to add anything else.
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Would depend on music played. Piano goes down to 28HZ. Organ goes to below 16HZ. So if one listens to limited music I agree no need for anything else. The ambience and scale is better served with lower octaves. I use single driver with built in sub for each speaker.
charles
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So it sounds like this is essentially a 3-way system, not just a single driver implementation. But if the F200a goes from 30 to 20,000 Hz why do you need to add anything else.
That was my original thinking. But then read Floyd Toole, Earl Gedde, and Duke LeJeune. They support use of multiple carefully placed subs to help tame in-room bass peaks/dips (that can be 30 dB). Try measuring your room. (BTW also run Direct <500 Hz version.) I cross the subs over at 60 Hz and they go down to 20 Hz. The ambience tweeter was Duke's suggestion as the F200a is 8 inch diameter with no whizzer, so it beams above 4,000 Hz. The tweeter actually acts as a poor man's "Late Ceiling Splash" device, a Duke invention, which is my case helps boost treble response and solidifies/widens the soundstage.
So I'm using the F200a as an extended midrange, covering 7 octaves.
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That was my original thinking. But then read Floyd Toole, Earl Gedde, and Duke LeJeune. They support use of multiple carefully placed subs to help tame in-room bass peaks/dips (that can be 30 dB). Try measuring your room. (BTW also run Direct <500 Hz version.) I cross the subs over at 60 Hz and they go down to 20 Hz. The ambience tweeter was Duke's suggestion as the F200a is 8 inch diameter with no whizzer, so it beams above 4,000 Hz. The tweeter actually acts as a poor man's "Late Ceiling Splash" device, a Duke invention, which is my case helps boost treble response and solidifies/widens the soundstage. , and I really
So I'm using the F200a as an extended midrange, covering 7 octaves.
I use my omegas the same way, but the result also varies greatly with power amplifier. My favorite daytime amp is single ended and at low volumes. It still took me years to appreciate how well the omegas could play by themselves, and even more time to get them to integrate with a pair of subs. Supertweeters, no problem, but the subs were another question. I really had to get them out of the omegas sound envelope for them to sound their best. They're almost not "on", but offer a fast tight bottom end. Now that I have them dialed in and really understand the omegas, I listen at nearly whisper quiet volumes, with or without their sub/super partners. Ah the wonders of having too much time at home.
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That was my original thinking. But then read Floyd Toole, Earl Gedde, and Duke LeJeune. They support use of multiple carefully placed subs to help tame in-room bass peaks/dips (that can be 30 dB). Try measuring your room. (BTW also run Direct <500 Hz version.) I cross the subs over at 60 Hz and they go down to 20 Hz. The ambience tweeter was Duke's suggestion as the F200a is 8 inch diameter with no whizzer, so it beams above 4,000 Hz. The tweeter actually acts as a poor man's "Late Ceiling Splash" device, a Duke invention, which is my case helps boost treble response and solidifies/widens the soundstage.
So I'm using the F200a as an extended midrange, covering 7 octaves.
So, you make a very good point that seems be often overlooked, particularly by single driver full range fans. It's not just about frequency response, it also about dispersion and power response. A typical 4.5" full range driver will start to beam around 3KHz, and there is nothing that you can do about it. On the other hand, a 2-way with the appropriate crossover point won't beam until about 13KHz depending on the exact tweeter.
(BTW. I think your 8" F200A actually starts to beam around 1,687 Hz, not 4,000 Hz.)
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The sub concept (sometimes called a "swarm") requires 3 or 4 subs. There was a manufacturer years ago who used a microphone on a 2nd sub placed at the opposite end of the room from the first sub. The microphone directed the 2nd sub to generate out of phase signal in an effort to even out the in-room peaks/dips.
"Beaming" is a gradual effect. Bob Brines, who designed/built my speakers used 4,000 Hz as a ballpark number.
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I miss Bob's posts and his designs. He was very talented. It's a loss for the rest of us that he retired from this activity.
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Thanks Dave! I’ll check out the A7.3 as well. Always appreciate your shared knowledge on all the forums!