Songtowers and Tube Amps

putz · « **on:** 18 Dec 2010, 11:53 pm »

Thinking of picking up a Tube Amp for my Songtowers. I'm currently powering them and a SongCenter with an Outlaw 7125 for 2 Channel and HT listening. No complaints there, just want to experience the tube sound especially with vinyl.

I'm considering a Dynaco ST-70 and a Jolida 502 BRC. I've also looked at some of the new Chinese amps but never having owned a Tube Amp before, I'm concerned about servicing issues.

So has anyone used/heard a Dynaco or Jolida with Songtowers? Will I be able to play them at a high volume without clipping? Any and all comments appreciated.

Atlplasma · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 01:12 am »

I've used 35 watts per channel for my SongTowers and very much enjoyed the sound. Playing at high volume was not an issue.

Meicheng · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 01:21 am »

The Songtowers are pretty efficient at 88db, and most any tube amp of 35 watts/channel or more will easily power them. I have used the Jolida 302 and some other Chinese EL34 and KT88 integrated amps, all with great results.

woodsart · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 01:23 am »

Hey

I am about a 3 month owner of a Yaqin MS-20 purchased from a company in Canada through Ebay and am very satisfied. I use it for 2 channel listening.

Recently I upgraded the front tubes with much improvement and have really enjoyed this 50wpc amp.

Canadian HiFi is 100% rating, QC in Cananda before shipping and Song is the person to deal with. He is outstanding.

If you are looking for a high end entry level to get your feet wet, I think you will be please, not only by performance, but by price.

I have a friend who's songtowers I have heard. He recently got a tube amp and was astonished with the sound.

Can't help you with the clipping, though, maybe someone else might chime in....Adydula???

My review.....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1283685

mchuckp · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 02:35 am »

I've had Songtower (w /RT) for several years now. Went through several iterations of solid state gear before trying a tubed preamp (Van Alstine T8+). The difference floored me. At that point I was sold on tubes. From there I went to a Van Alstine Ultravalve tube amp (replaced a Van Alstine 240 SS amp). I really liked the sound of this all tube combo but wouldn't say it was "better" than my tube/SS. Just different. I am now using a Cary Rocket 88 tube amp instead. I do like this amp more than the Ultravalve. Much bolder sound and more depth in the staging.

Long story short, I LOVE tubes and they sound GREAT on the STs. Some people don't. Personally, I can't imagine not having at least one tube component in my chain. Another option you could go is a tube preamp. It really is the best of both worlds. You get the warmth and "organic" sound of tubes but still get the tightness and slam of SS.

Either way, you owe it to yourself to try something with tubes to see if it is for you. Bare in mind that different tubes make a pretty big difference. I rolled some new tubes in my Cary shortly after getting it, and the difference was pretty substantial. This is all part of the fun.

Good luck.

HAITIMAN · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 03:22 am »

I am using a Rogue Cronus Magnum with my Songtowers and am getting great synergy. I would highly recommend a tube integrated with the Salks.

DMurphy · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 03:41 am »

Quote from: HAITIMAN on 19 Dec 2010, 03:22 am

I am using a Rogue Cronus Magnum with my Songtowers and am getting great synergy. I would highly recommend a tube integrated with the Salks.

OK Let me open up Pandora's Box here. What exactly are you guys hearing with tube gear that you aren't hearing with a decent quality SS amp? I personally can't hear any difference between a high quality SS unit (from AVA) and a high quality tube amp (from AVA). I definitely can hear a difference between a so-so SS amp and a bad tube amp--the latter has rolled off highs and flabby bass. But I still think the tube mystique belongs in the category of urban legends. I've listened to some of the most expensive tube amps on this planet driving my speakers in my house, and I thought my AVA Insight sounded about the same. Obviously we're not going to resolve this issure here, but it would help me a little if you could describe more specifically what improvements you're hearing fromn the tube gear. And do you really, really think you could pass a blind comparison test?

Art_Chicago · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 03:55 am »

Quote from: DMurphy on 19 Dec 2010, 03:41 am

OK Let me open up Pandora's Box here. What exactly are you guys hearing with tube gear that you aren't hearing with a decent quality SS amp? I personally can't hear any difference between a high quality SS unit (from AVA) and a high quality tube amp (from AVA). I definitely can hear a difference between a so-so SS amp and a bad tube amp--the latter has rolled off highs and flabby bass. But I still think the tube mystique belongs in the category of urban legends. I've listened to some of the most expensive tube amps on this planet driving my speakers in my house, and I thought my AVA Insight sounded about the same. Obviously we're not going to resolve this issure here, but it would help me a little if you could describe more specifically what improvements you're hearing fromn the tube gear. And do you really, really think you could pass a blind comparison test?

Oh, man! this is gonna be GOOD! Thank you, Dennis

davidrs · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 04:02 am »

Wait until late Monday night. Full Moon. Solstice. Lunar Eclipse.

I can hear the howling already.

catastrofe · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 04:09 am »

Next Dennis is going to say that he doesn't hear a difference between Salk and Bose!!!

DMurphy · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 04:29 am »

Quote from: Art_Chicago on 19 Dec 2010, 03:55 am

Oh, man! this is gonna be GOOD! Thank you, Dennis

I'm sure this thread won't go anywhere, but what the heck. I just got a pair of flame-retardant pajamas for Xmas.

DMurphy · « **Reply #11 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 04:32 am »

Quote from: catastrofe on 19 Dec 2010, 04:09 am

Next Dennis is going to say that he doesn't hear a difference between Salk and Bose!!!

Yes I can. One has a long OOO vowel and the other has a soft ahhhh. I know stuff.

Saturn94 · « **Reply #12 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 04:37 am »

Quote from: DMurphy on 19 Dec 2010, 04:32 am

Yes I can. One has a long OOO vowel and the other has a soft ahhhh. I know stuff.

mchuckp · « **Reply #13 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 04:43 am »

Well, seems like a pointless argument but I can suggest one thing. Dennis, if you come back out to Oregon next year for a GTG, I will bring some of my tube gear and we can try some tests.

I won't claim I've done blind comparisons but to me the sound is very different. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if I'm proven otherwise. I proved to myself at this years GTG that I don't have the most analytical ear when I couldn't even pick out a Salk speaker in a blind test which I know very well.

mchuckp · « **Reply #14 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 04:47 am »

Speaking of Bose, if you have never seen this video please watch it. Freakin' hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCBe7-6rw4M

Stercom · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 10:35 am »

Quote from: DMurphy on 19 Dec 2010, 03:41 am

I've listened to some of the most expensive tube amps on this planet driving my speakers in my house, and I thought my AVA Insight sounded about the same........ And do you really, really think you could pass a blind comparison test?

Just to get things started. Dennis - what tube gear did you use, what speakers did you use and did you pass a blind comparision test? If so, how did you conduct the test?

timjthomas · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 10:52 am »

Great question Dennis. I can't put my finger on the differences and would be hard pressed to pick out the difference in a blind test.

The only thing I can say, is that when listening in an extended session (3 hours or more) using headphones, I find tube amps to be a bit less fatiguing (if that makes sense).

FYI. . . I do not own Salk speakers, but have Fritz Carbon 7s driven by AVA amps, and that match works very well.

I would suspect that the differences (if any) may present themselves more readily using headphones rather than speakers.

Just my thoughts . . .

Atlplasma · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 12:34 pm »

Hi Dennis:

I enjoy listening to my old Eico ST-70. While I can't say that the sound is better than what I hear on SS playback, it does have a different sound. I've read that I'm probably hearing added distortion in the playback.

I've been experimenting with hi rez music and trying to judge if 192 kHz is better than 44.1 (or 96 or 176). I'm not sure--although well recorded is much nicer to listen to at pretty much any of these resolutions (especially on my SongTowers, of course).

Steve

TJHUB · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 03:07 pm »

I'll try to answer the question...

I got into tubes last year. It all started with a tube DAC and now I run a tube preamp as well.

The introduction of the tube DAC brought a few immediate changes to my previously all SS sound. The first is clearly a different sound for cymbals. They sounded more realistic with a spectacular metallic shimmer. Anything I'd call "harsh" was completely gone. Midrange and vocals seemed to sound more realistic as well. There was a distinct change in the sound stage as well. The tube DAC added a more 3D effect to the sound stage and there was clearly more separation of instruments and vocals. There is maybe more subtle changes for the positive like a complete lack of glare, but the above changes is what made me love the tube DAC. People can say what they want about tubes "coloring" the sound. To my ears, the gear I've chosen makes things sound more realistic and accurate. I couldn't listen to music any other way. There is also NOTHING "warm" about my setup.

Of course with all things in audio, there seems to be trade-offs. One trade off for the addition of the tube DAC was a loss of definition in the bass. This was NOT subtle. It actually made me not like the DAC. What's funny though, is when I tried to get away from the tube DAC, I couldn't. It was clear to me that the benefits outweighed the negatives. I later modded the DAC with Burson discrete op amps and an upgraded clock. The addition of the "right" tube, and the DAC is now spectacular in all regards.

The addition of the tube preamp didn't have as much of an impact on the sound, but it did seem to add more layers to the sound. I've experimented swapping back and forth with various components and mixes of SS and tube, but I can honestly say that the tube gear I own is staying.

I run SS amps and I don't see that ever changing as I use them for HT use as well and want the power and dynamics they provide. I think there is some magic that comes from a mix of tube gear and SS. Of course a lot depends upon the particular pieces of gear used as I'm sure there are some SS preamps and DACs that provide a similar sound quality to what I described I get with my tube gear.

From my understanding, most tube gear should provide the sound qualities I described above. I took a chance on tubes and found the pieces I chose to work perfectly for me. It was one of the best things I've ever done for my audio listening.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Dec 2010, 03:30 pm »

I cannot comment on the SOng Towers but I have had two different pair of HT2-TL speakers in the showroom and have used several different setups with them including both SS and tube. Hybrids and Class D. In regard to tubes, one of my favorites that I have paired with the Salks has been a 35 watt Class A EL34 amp from Audio Note Kits. Yes, it is a kit so it would have to be built but it is really a nice unit and can be had in standard form for under $2K. Also being a kit, you can build it with your preference of components depending on budget.
There are a LOT of decent tube amps out there and many of them will provide you with a nice presentation. I will say that the AN EL34 amp would be considerably better than the Jolida. But again, it's just another option.

http://www.audionotekits.com/l4el34pp.html