[TJHUB]

Garth,

I run dual 15" subwoofers, but currently they are both stacked in the front right corner.  PEQ is parametric equalization, which is applied only to my subwoofers via a Behringer 1124p (BFD).  The reason I am able to do this is because my preamp has a subwoofer output (dual mono's, actually).  I have been studying room acoustics and their effect on sound for a while, so when I purchased my preamp having HT Bypass and a subwoofer output was a requirement.  Otherwise using something like a Velodyne SMS-1 would work, as it has a built in high pass set at 80Hz.

I used the BFD to apply three filters and pull down the peaks I had in my room.  My main peak was at 50Hz or so, and it was quite large, but easily smoothed using PEQ. 

Another way to smooth the response below the crossover is to use multiple subwoofers.  Using three or more can help achieve results like I have, but sometimes without the need to actually apply EQ.  It all depends on your room and your configuration. 

Having the ability to adjust phase and even set individual crossover points and delays for the subwoofer(s) will help even more.  Something like the Behringer DCX2496 would work perfectly for that.  Achieving the perfect blend isn't exactly easy, but its not as difficult as you'd think.  It would only take a few hours on a weekend, and the results would be well worth the time spent in my opinion.

Hope that helps.  Feel free to fire away if I haven't answered all your questions.

P.S.  Here is TJHUB's in-room response.  He was able to achieve a perfect blend (I've heard it), and it took even less time or EQ filters than it did for me.  Like I said, its not that difficult.

One correction.  That graph for me was after I removed my BFD and found that I could get the response I needed by just using the single-band PEQ on my PB13-Ultra's plate amp.  I have a room peak at 36Hz that I need to cut down.  Other than that, you can see what I get.

For any of you that have not yet heard what a quality subwoofer that is EQ'd (even reasonably) flat can sound like for music, you are truly missing out.  I tried to get away from using an EQ'd sub for music and I keep coming back to it.  I'm a 2-channel guy first and I just need capable home theater performance.  My bass has to sound as perfect as it can be, and I have not heard better bass than with a quality EQ'd sub playing.  And don't think for one minute that my HT2-TL's suffer from poor bass, because they certainly do not!

[davidrs]

Agree with Ricardojoa's comment on the need for a sub with certain types of music.

Also, It will be defined by the levels of bass YOU personally are satisfied with!!!!

The SongTowers excel with most types of music. On some occasions, a bit of an assist from a sub made everything much more enjoyable,  with certain music types, for my ears.

I was happy to have the subs add the extra bit they did with the SongTowers. HOWEVER, I do not need the subs with my Gemme Tanto V2s and I do not use them in support of the Gemmes, even with ht. Just bringing this up since it has not been mentioned in the other posts.

Getting back to the STs. If you will be dipping into any Reggae, Hip-hop, Electronica, modern Spanish, and any modern/alt rock, etc. a well integrated sub will make you appreciate the SongTowers all that much more.

I found integration with two different subs fairly easy. The subs stayed OFF for about 60% of my 2ch listening.

Since you will be doing ht, sub duties, when called for with 2ch music will be a terrific bonus.

So its 45 less how many days now????

[billmcc]

Hey Bill.

I used an NHT W2 system (2X12inch sealed passives + X1 Crossover + A1 amp) with the SongTowers in an ht setup.

The X1 makes integration very very easy and EFFECTIVE both for the room and with the SongTowers! I pulled L/R mains preamp-out to the X1 as well as LFE from the AVR.

The W2 cabinets are flexible with placement, including stacked, and the piano black finish does not stand out.

The bass output is very tight and on the musical end. You will not feel your trousers flap with the A1, but ht lfe bass is very well done.

The NHT system goes for around $1000 new.


Hope that helps.

- David

Agree with Ricardojoa's comment on the need for a sub with certain types of music.

Also, It will be defined by the levels of bass YOU personally are satisfied with!!!!

The SongTowers excel with most types of music. On some occasions, a bit of an assist from a sub made everything much more enjoyable,  with certain music types, for my ears.

I was happy to have the subs add the extra bit they did with the SongTowers. HOWEVER, I do not need the subs with my Gemme Tanto V2s and I do not use them in support of the Gemmes, even with ht. Just bringing this up since it has not been mentioned in the other posts.

Getting back to the STs. If you will be dipping into any Reggae, Hip-hop, Electronica, modern Spanish, and any modern/alt rock, etc. a well integrated sub will make you appreciate the SongTowers all that much more.

I found integration with two different subs fairly easy. The subs stayed OFF for about 60% of my 2ch listening.

Since you will be doing ht, sub duties, when called for with 2ch music will be a terrific bonus.

So its 45 less how many days now????

Hey David,

Thanks for your thoughts, very helpful (in both posts) . I have heard the NHT's are great subs and having two is even better. I would like to go with two subs but for now I think the F12SE will work just fine. With listening to mostly rock and some jazz the sub might not be needed but it will be there just in case . Projected due date is 7/21/10 right after I come off vacation. But who's counting (I am ). But if it is longer thats fine as I am in no rush and I realize Jim (and his crew) build each speaker to order. Plus I have some great speakers now (Sierras) so its all good .

Bill

[billmcc]

I use dual DIY 15" sealed subwoofers, but not because the ST's lack in the bass department.  I use them so I can apply PEQ below the crossover frequency and tame some of my room modes.  Without a subwoofer (or two) I had a large peak at 53Hz, but crossing over to subwoofers allowed me to use PEQ and pull that peak down, so now my bass is pretty flat.  Here's a pic of the aftermath:

Brandon,

That is one fine looking graph ! Thanks for posting it, gives me something to work towards.

Without a sub the Songtowers are like a $4k speaker.   With a well integrated sub the Songtowers are like a $10k speaker.   If the low frequencies are taken from the Songtower mid/woofer then they have much less intermodulation distortion in the midrange.  You probably won’t get as good integration with the bass as Dennis Murphy has but if you can come even close then you have a better sound.   The key is doing a good job, which is hard if your name isn’t Nuance.  The bass will probably be a bit clearer without the sub but probably stronger with the sub.

It might seem like a waste to get a good transmission line when you could have gotten monitors, but you get a couple of good things with the transmission line version.   One is that you don’t have to pay extra for a stand.  The other one is that it removes the rapid phase changes to a lower frequency to allow a better chance for a good match of the crossover to the sub.

Bob

EDIT:  By saying it is like a $10k speaker I don’t mean that you will have anything approaching SoundScape 10’s.   

Bob,

Thanks for your thoughts ! I had thought about the Song Surround IIs but I really wanted the STs. I think I made the right choice.

I just gave a Songtower audition to somebody who owns Sierra-1s + Rythmik sub (not sure what model but if I recall he said it cost around $1300). He said he was very impressed with the Songtower bass, and that overall he thought they were perfect for two channel music. We did some direct comparisons between the Songtowers and his Sierra-1s, and the Songtowers had significantly better low end extension and a much fuller sound as a result. I think you'll be quite pleased.

cacophony,

Thanks for posting your thoughts on the ST and Sierra comparison .

Bill, please let us know when u will receive the ST and tell us how the St compare to sierra.
Im building my 2 ch system, but seriously, i dont even know where i should start now, preamp,speakers,sub??

ricardo,

I will most definitely post my thoughts on the STs in about 40 days . If I were you I would start with the speakers then go from there.

Bill,

Congrats on the SongTower purchase.  You will never regret purchasing them. 

I have HT2-TLs and while they don't need much bass help for music, I run a sub for music for the same reasons as Nuance.  It's the only way I know how to get a flat frequency response below 80Hz.  IMO, the SongTowers will really benefit from the use of a sub for music.

Your Rythmik sub should be amazingly good for music, so you have no reason whatsoever to not use it.  You have everything you need to properly integrate it, so why not?

I am between subs right now and I miss having one...

Terry,

Thanks for your thoughts, I have no doubt I will NOT regret my purchase . I think the F12SE will work quite well.

I originally used an 8 yr. old Boston Acoustics sub with the STs, but preferred the bass put out by the STs. I then upgraded to a Rythmik F12 - and WOW! Now I choose music for its bass content. In my humble opinion - combine the mid and high range accuracy/sound stage of the STs with the bass accuracy of the Rythmik + bass traps - a slice of musical heaven.

Another F12 owner . I had a BA sub myself a few years back which I replaced with a Outlaw LFM-1 Plus now the F12SE. Thanks for your thoughts!

When I had Sierra's, I used a sub occasionally for music.  I don't with the ST's though.  I'm happy with their bass output as is in my room.

jd3,

Overall what are your thoughts of the STs when compared to the Sierras? Thanks!

[Nuance]

Nuance, Thanks for the indepth reply. Is the PEQ within the 1124p or is it a seperate system or program that is applied through the 1124p? You use the parasound 2100 as your pre correct?

Thanks, Garth

The 1124p add's the EQ.  I used REW to measure my room, then I applied the filters and re-measured until it was nice and balanced sounding, which end up measuring very flat (as you can see).  For HT my response looks a little different, with a slight rise as the frequencies get lower.  Its perfect for movies IMO.

My current preamp is the Parasound Classic 2100, yes.

Let me again re-iterate that the SongTower's do not need a subwoofer.  It was my room that needed the subwoofer, as I was in dyer need of pulling down my large peak.  Whether I ran the speakers full range or crossed over to the subwoofers, the peak was still there until I applied EQ.  Granted it got better simply by crossing over to the subs, but I certainly still needed to reduce the peaks caused by my room modes.  Judging by how things sound now, I'll never go back.

[jd3]

jd3,

Overall what are your thoughts of the STs when compared to the Sierras? Thanks!

Bill,

I liked the Sierra's.  They are a very good bookshelf speaker, and really output a good amount of bass response for their size.  I believe I had some NHT Classic 3's before them (I've lost track of what speakers and when I had them!), and to me the Sierra's were a more involving speaker than the NHT's.  The ST's however are really in a different class.  The midrange clarity, soundstage, imaging, and of course bass response are much better.  A big difference IMO.  The best thing I can tell you is I'd gone through a bunch of speakers before the ST's, and I've had mine now for almost 3 years.  I really haven't heard another speaker that holds a candle to them in their price range.  I guess the best testament is that if I could never own another speaker I'd be happy with my ST's.  The only other speakers I'd consider have the same Salk sound characteristics ...either the HT-2TL, HT-3 or Soundscape (which I don't think I'll ever be able to afford..even though my wife said I could get them...if we had the money!!).  I will likely make a choice of one of those to build my 2 channel setup around, but another pair of ST's would fill the bill nicely too.  I don't think you'll be disappointed in your choice of ST's.   Sorry I got off track, and I still don't use a sub for music because I don't need to with the ST's.

John

[billmcc]

Bill,

I liked the Sierra's.  They are a very good bookshelf speaker, and really output a good amount of bass response for their size.  I believe I had some NHT Classic 3's before them (I've lost track of what speakers and when I had them!), and to me the Sierra's were a more involving speaker than the NHT's.  The ST's however are really in a different class.  The midrange clarity, soundstage, imaging, and of course bass response are much better.  A big difference IMO.  The best thing I can tell you is I'd gone through a bunch of speakers before the ST's, and I've had mine now for almost 3 years.  I really haven't heard another speaker that holds a candle to them in their price range.  I guess the best testament is that if I could never own another speaker I'd be happy with my ST's.  The only other speakers I'd consider have the same Salk sound characteristics ...either the HT-2TL, HT-3 or Soundscape (which I don't think I'll ever be able to afford..even though my wife said I could get them...if we had the money!!).  I will likely make a choice of one of those to build my 2 channel setup around, but another pair of ST's would fill the bill nicely too.  I don't think you'll be disappointed in your choice of ST's.   Sorry I got off track, and I still don't use a sub for music because I don't need to with the ST's.

John

John,

Thank you for your thoughts on the comparison between the ST's and the Sierras. I did not think you went off track at all . It makes the wait a little bit more difficult though .

[polarbare]

Just a quick question for Nuance and TJHUB - are you high passing the mains and then running 80 and lower to the subs, or running full range with the mains and then fiddling with blending the subs in? I really need to invest in the equipment and time to use REW, but I've been lazy 

[TJHUB]

Just a quick question for Nuance and TJHUB - are you high passing the mains and then running 80 and lower to the subs, or running full range with the mains and then fiddling with blending the subs in? I really need to invest in the equipment and time to use REW, but I've been lazy 

We both high-pass our mains.  I do mostly because I don't want my midbass drivers working so hard (even though they seem more than capable).  The other reason is to get the best in-room response possible, and that typically requires a high-pass filter on the mains.  I think Nuance would say the same.

[Nuance]

We both high-pass our mains.  I do mostly because I don't want my midbass drivers working so hard (even though they seem more than capable).  The other reason is to get the best in-room response possible, and that typically requires a high-pass filter on the mains.  I think Nuance would say the same.

Word.