[billmcc]

I'm wondering if many Song Tower owners are using a sub when listening to 2 CH music? I currently have Ascend Sierras which benefit from the use of my Rythmik F12SE. I am hoping that when my STs arrive using a sub will not be needed as it is with the Sierras. I listen to mostly rock and some jazz, nothing really that bass heavy.

Bill

[Nuance]

I use dual DIY 15" sealed subwoofers, but not because the ST's lack in the bass department.  I use them so I can apply PEQ below the crossover frequency and tame some of my room modes.  Without a subwoofer (or two) I had a large peak at 53Hz, but crossing over to subwoofers allowed me to use PEQ and pull that peak down, so now my bass is pretty flat.  Here's a pic of the aftermath:

[fsimms]

Without a sub the Songtowers are like a $4k speaker.   With a well integrated sub the Songtowers are like a $10k speaker.   If the low frequencies are taken from the Songtower mid/woofer then they have much less intermodulation distortion in the midrange.  You probably won’t get as good integration with the bass as Dennis Murphy has but if you can come even close then you have a better sound.   The key is doing a good job, which is hard if your name isn’t Nuance.  The bass will probably be a bit clearer without the sub but probably stronger with the sub.

It might seem like a waste to get a good transmission line when you could have gotten monitors, but you get a couple of good things with the transmission line version.   One is that you don’t have to pay extra for a stand.  The other one is that it removes the rapid phase changes to a lower frequency to allow a better chance for a good match of the crossover to the sub.

Bob

EDIT:  By saying it is like a $10k speaker I don’t mean that you will have anything approaching SoundScape 10’s.   

[cacophony777]

I'm wondering if many Song Tower owners are using a sub when listening to 2 CH music? I currently have Ascend Sierras which benefit from the use of my Rythmik F12SE. I am hoping that when my STs arrive using a sub will not be needed as it is with the Sierras. I listen to mostly rock and some jazz, nothing really that bass heavy.

Bill

I just gave a Songtower audition to somebody who owns Sierra-1s + Rythmik sub (not sure what model but if I recall he said it cost around $1300). He said he was very impressed with the Songtower bass, and that overall he thought they were perfect for two channel music. We did some direct comparisons between the Songtowers and his Sierra-1s, and the Songtowers had significantly better low end extension and a much fuller sound as a result. I think you'll be quite pleased.

[ricardojoa]

I'm wondering if many Song Tower owners are using a sub when listening to 2 CH music? I currently have Ascend Sierras which benefit from the use of my Rythmik F12SE. I am hoping that when my STs arrive using a sub will not be needed as it is with the Sierras. I listen to mostly rock and some jazz, nothing really that bass heavy.

Bill

Bill, please let us know when u will receive the ST and tell us how the St compare to sierra.
Im building my 2 ch system, but seriously, i dont even know where i should start now, preamp,speakers,sub??

[TJHUB]

Bill,

Congrats on the SongTower purchase.  You will never regret purchasing them. 

I have HT2-TLs and while they don't need much bass help for music, I run a sub for music for the same reasons as Nuance.  It's the only way I know how to get a flat frequency response below 80Hz.  IMO, the SongTowers will really benefit from the use of a sub for music.

Your Rythmik sub should be amazingly good for music, so you have no reason whatsoever to not use it.  You have everything you need to properly integrate it, so why not?

I am between subs right now and I miss having one...

[fsimms]

I thought of a third advantage that towers have over monitors.   The Songtowers have stuffing inside the box that will dampen the reflective midrange sounds that reflect off of the back of the cabinet and then go out to your ear through the speaker cones.

However, the Songtowers do go low enough for just music. There was a guy who posted recently that he was very happy with just his HT1 Veracity monitors playing jazz.  The Songtowers have even better bass.

Bob

[oldmp3]

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70651.0

[atroder]

I originally used an 8 yr. old Boston Acoustics sub with the STs, but preferred the bass put out by the STs. I then upgraded to a Rythmik F12 - and WOW! Now I choose music for its bass content. In my humble opinion - combine the mid and high range accuracy/sound stage of the STs with the bass accuracy of the Rythmik + bass traps - a slice of musical heaven.

[jd3]

When I had Sierra's, I used a sub occasionally for music.  I don't with the ST's though.  I'm happy with their bass output as is in my room.

[Big Red Machine]

It is blasphemus to use a sub for 2 channel music when using full range floorstanders.  Each of you give yourself a slap!!   And you call yourselves audiophools.  Shame, shame, shame. 

[floresjc]

I use a sub with my SongTowers for music, because they are part of my 5.1 setup and the sub is already in there. I have a 15" Rythmik with dual passive radiators. You don't need a sub with them, but since I spent good money on the sub and the 2-channel preamp with sub capability, I figured I may as well use it more than just watching movies.

[sirbrine]

I have 2 F15HP subs in a pretty large room that I plan to integrate with my Songtowers when they arrive.  I currently have a pair of Boston Acoustics T830 speakers.

I use the system for both music and home theater.

In the meantime, I have been experimenting with REW to learn how it works and to EQ a big bump I have around 40 - 50Hz.

I have found it challenging to learn REW and figure out how all the options on the Rythmik subs affect the sound.  One thing I know, though is that the Rythmik subs certainly fill out the bass.

[TJHUB]

I have 2 F15HP subs in a pretty large room that I plan to integrate with my Songtowers when they arrive.  I currently have a pair of Boston Acoustics T830 speakers.

I use the system for both music and home theater.

In the meantime, I have been experimenting with REW to learn how it works and to EQ a big bump I have around 40 - 50Hz.

I have found it challenging to learn REW and figure out how all the options on the Rythmik subs affect the sound.  One thing I know, though is that the Rythmik subs certainly fill out the bass.

REW can seem very intimidating at first, but once you get it going, you will find it's not so bad.  Also know that REW is worth every second of time you spend getting it working.

A pair of Rythmik F15HP's is a pretty sweet setup.  I almost went that direction myself.  They should integrate flawlessly with your new SongTowers once they arrive. 

[ricardojoa]

I think we have to give consideration on the type of music we listen when talking about sub or not. If you listen to melody, jazz, you may not need a sub and the ST can be fine. But if you demand great pounding bass, a sub is proabbly preferable and give you more control. But the most important issue is integrating a sub with the main.

[gkinberg]

I use dual DIY 15" sealed subwoofers, but not because the ST's lack in the bass department.  I use them so I can apply PEQ below the crossover frequency and tame some of my room modes.  Without a subwoofer (or two) I had a large peak at 53Hz, but crossing over to subwoofers allowed me to use PEQ and pull that peak down, so now my bass is pretty flat.

Nuance, How is your setup configured? I'm pretty impressed at how effectively you smoothed out your frequency peak. Could you give me a bit of background on your system such as, what is PEQ, and how do you incorporate the sub into your 2 channel rig?

Thanks, Garth

[Nuance]

Nuance, How is your setup configured? I'm pretty impressed at how effectively you smoothed out your frequency peak. Could you give me a bit of background on your system such as, what is PEQ, and how do you incorporate the sub into your 2 channel rig?

Thanks, Garth

Garth,

I run dual 15" subwoofers, but currently they are both stacked in the front right corner.  PEQ is parametric equalization, which is applied only to my subwoofers via a Behringer 1124p (BFD).  The reason I am able to do this is because my preamp has a subwoofer output (dual mono's, actually).  I have been studying room acoustics and their effect on sound for a while, so when I purchased my preamp having HT Bypass and a subwoofer output was a requirement.  Otherwise using something like a Velodyne SMS-1 would work, as it has a built in high pass set at 80Hz.

I used the BFD to apply three filters and pull down the peaks I had in my room.  My main peak was at 50Hz or so, and it was quite large, but easily smoothed using PEQ. 

Another way to smooth the response below the crossover is to use multiple subwoofers.  Using three or more can help achieve results like I have, but sometimes without the need to actually apply EQ.  It all depends on your room and your configuration. 

Having the ability to adjust phase and even set individual crossover points and delays for the subwoofer(s) will help even more.  Something like the Behringer DCX2496 would work perfectly for that.  Achieving the perfect blend isn't exactly easy, but its not as difficult as you'd think.  It would only take a few hours on a weekend, and the results would be well worth the time spent in my opinion.

Hope that helps.  Feel free to fire away if I haven't answered all your questions.

P.S.  Here is TJHUB's in-room response.  He was able to achieve a perfect blend (I've heard it), and it took even less time or EQ filters than it did for me.  Like I said, its not that difficult.

[Stylus]

Without a sub the Songtowers are like a $4k speaker.   With a well integrated sub the Songtowers are like a $10k speaker.   If the low frequencies are taken from the Songtower mid/woofer then they have much less intermodulation distortion in the midrange.  You probably won’t get as good integration with the bass as Dennis Murphy has but if you can come even close then you have a better sound.   The key is doing a good job, which is hard if your name isn’t Nuance.  The bass will probably be a bit clearer without the sub but probably stronger with the sub.

It might seem like a waste to get a good transmission line when you could have gotten monitors, but you get a couple of good things with the transmission line version.   One is that you don’t have to pay extra for a stand.  The other one is that it removes the rapid phase changes to a lower frequency to allow a better chance for a good match of the crossover to the sub.

Bob

EDIT:  By saying it is like a $10k speaker I don’t mean that you will have anything approaching SoundScape 10’s.   

I totally agree.  I also added a Rythmik 12 to my 2-channel SongTower setup and it blows me away!

[gkinberg]

Nuance, Thanks for the indepth reply. Is the PEQ within the 1124p or is it a seperate system or program that is applied through the 1124p? You use the parasound 2100 as your pre correct?

Thanks, Garth

[davidrs]

Hey Bill.

I used an NHT W2 system (2X12inch sealed passives + X1 Crossover + A1 amp) with the SongTowers in an ht setup.

The X1 makes integration very very easy and EFFECTIVE both for the room and with the SongTowers! I pulled L/R mains preamp-out to the X1 as well as LFE from the AVR.

The W2 cabinets are flexible with placement, including stacked, and the piano black finish does not stand out.

The bass output is very tight and on the musical end. You will not feel your trousers flap with the A1, but ht lfe bass is very well done.

The NHT system goes for around $1000 new.


Hope that helps.

- David