The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5

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hipp

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I have been enjoying the extraordinary capabilities of the SP3 for many years. The 8 channel Analogue Inputs have allowed me to play multichannel audio with a quality I cannot find when I play through HDMI or other digital inputs.
Is there any thought from the Bryston Team to create a new Multichannel Processor , maintaining the 8 channel analogue section, but adding some of the new codecs, Atmos obviously as an example. Expanding the channel layout accordingly.

This may not be in the Bryston plans, however, yet if it were and if it was within a year or so, it is something I am sure many of your current SP3 owners, at least, would be most interested in.

The SP3 I have is beginning to exhibit a few hiccups, have to reboot sometimes to find the HDMI boards, and may one day require a replacement.

My preference without even having to listen to the few competitive multichannel processors with mutichannel preinputs is certainly a prospective SP5!

Hopeful How


Alphonse

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #1 on: 28 Nov 2023, 04:48 pm »
I would also like to see an SP5. My only regret with buying a used SP3 a few years ago is that I wish I would have bought one sooner. Sounds great on music and movies in a 3.0 system. My wish list for SP5 would be something modular or multiple versions. I no longer have any analogue sources or use physical discs any more. Just one streaming source now (Apple TV 4K). So, for my needs a stealth digital only 5-7 channel max version with 4 input 1 output HDMI board would work great. That is my two cents worth. Al

Chewbacca 319

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #2 on: 28 Nov 2023, 09:32 pm »
I think the likelihood of an SP5 is pretty low at this point. You have to understand that compared to stereo amps/pre amps a surround sound processor is a lot more complex to develop ,engineer and overall costs are astronomical. You have to get licensing fees for all the modern codecs and features, develop or license some sort of room correction, custom software, etc.

I could be wrong but I just don't see bryston, or it's parent company having the tooling and resources to make something like this completely in house while being competitive in the segment. The only way I could see bryston bringing an SP5 to market is if they partnered with another brand, very similar to what bryston and storm audio did for the SP4 (essentially rebadging their processor in return helping storm develop power amps using their tech) but we all know how that ended.

When the original SP4 released it was $14,000 USD. Once you get into that price range the limited competition already kinda has everything locked down. Now with inflation a comparable product would be even more.

When you have pre-pros like the anthem AVM70 and AVM90 offering feature sets that 99% of people already won't even fully utilize at a third and half the price retrospectively I don't think there's enough money to be made at the end of the day for the few customers who would buy one.

Don't get me wrong I love my bryston gear, If an SP5 did come out I'd be ecstatic, I just don't see it happening, at least anytime soon.

hipp

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #3 on: 28 Nov 2023, 10:55 pm »
That is very insightful and I completely agree with you.
I suppose that SP3 owners will generally then have to move away from Bryston if they want to upgrade or change the SP3 they own, and still retain multichannel audio, or even home theatre applications.
Not sure whether those consumer numbers would be significant to Bryston, probably not.
I agree then that they will currently maintain focus on 2 channel products.
Would be nice to read an “official “ response to the SP5 concept though.

Alphonse

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #4 on: 28 Nov 2023, 11:34 pm »
I am inclined to agree Chewbacca. Maybe wishful thinking. James has mentioned possibly developing new hardware and working with a software company dedicated to the firmware. I was just wondering if a modular approach might work and be cost effective at different option/price points. For example start with a base processor unit, make analogue inputs an optional module, HDMI an optional module, all other digital inputs an optional module, streaming an optional module, then add balanced outputs with variable options (3, 5, 7, ? channels). A stealth version with HDMI and 3 channels of balanced outputs would work for me. Apple TV 4K to Processor via HDMI input, HDMI video pass through to 4K TV, 3 balanced outputs to 3 Bryston PowerPac 300 amps, to 3 LCR speakers of choice. Maybe build on that with other optional modules later. All of these new pre/pros now moving to 12+ channels are a major waste for me. Al

hipp

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #5 on: 29 Nov 2023, 06:49 pm »
Alphonse, that would be astounding, but I don't think anything will come of this concept.

There are very few Multichannel Processors now available that have the Anologue Preamp 8 channel inputs.

Hopefully my SP3 lives on for a very long time!

WGH

Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #6 on: 29 Nov 2023, 09:31 pm »
The 8 channel Analogue Inputs have allowed me to play multichannel audio with a quality I cannot find when I play through HDMI or other digital inputs.

I heard a dramatic multichannel demo at the 2009 RMAF (although it may have been a year earlier or later). All the electronics, music and sound effects were custom made and as far as I know not available to the public. At the September 27, 2023 Apple Corps and Universal Music Group press event at the Dolby Theater in Manhattan they played a custom hi-res lossless Dolby Atmos multichannel mix of the remixed Beatles "Red" and "Blue" albums, those uncompressed mixes are also not available to the public.

Where do you find analog multichannel audio? How do you play the recordings? Stereophile's Kalman Rubinson had a long running "Music in the Round" column but it was focused on electronics and not music.


There is an abundance of surround music on Blu-ray. Once in a while I try listening to it using my Oppo Blu-ray player HDMI out into an Anthem AVM60 on my 7.1.4 stereo/home theater system, as you found out the results are sort of meh compared to a hi-res stereo recording and a high end DAC. The Anthem is excellent for movies and concerts where 90% of my minds attention is focused on the video and 10% on music. Turn off the video and the sound becomes just average. Just for fun I have tried the Anthem as a stand alone DAC and the sound is still average.

I would guess the Trinnov Altitude32 would have clearer HDMI sound than the Anthem, but at $26,750 it should. The Altitude32 also has 7.1 analog inputs.
https://www.trinnov.com/en/products/altitude32/#Description

gbaby

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #7 on: 15 Dec 2023, 04:19 pm »
I am just discovering that the SP3 may be the only high end processor with direct analog pass through. Neither, the Macintosh MX 170/180 or the Lyndorf, have direct analog pass through. These processors have all the sound going through its D/A converter. So, you can forget about using a turntable for these processor brands. The SP3 is the only audiophile processor in my opinion. It has everything but ATMOS (a gimmick to me) and room correction.

Buseto

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #8 on: 16 Dec 2023, 07:39 am »
And therefore it's such a pity Bryston doesn't seem to bring up an updated SP3.

(At the moment I still hold on to the SP3.)

gbaby

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #9 on: 17 Dec 2023, 02:04 am »
And therefore it's such a pity Bryston doesn't seem to bring up an updated SP3.

(At the moment I still hold on to the SP3.)

The real pity is that audio manufacturers embraced a codec that emphasize object based sound when in reality no one hears sound in object based. What they are selling in Atmos can be accomplished in 7.1 with proper rear speakers and placement. I have the SP3 along with a phono pre-amp and turntable with a moving coil cartridge. You can't get this with processors emphasizing room correction and Atmos with no direct analog pass through. Bryston is trying to bring us superior audio that is reasonably affordable. You might be a little unreasonable in your expectations. Enjoy your SP3 and expand on it like I did. 8)

Chewbacca 319

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #10 on: 17 Dec 2023, 11:38 am »
I'm sorry but Atmos and DTS X aren't gimmicks. As far as codecs go they are far ahead immersion wise compared to standard Dolby true HD and DTS master audio. The jump from possess surround sound to Atmos is uncanny, and I'm assuming you're calling it a gimmick because you haven't truly experienced a proper Atmos setup.

There are still quite a few pre processors that have an analogue section. Anthems AVM70/AVM90 still has analogue inputs as well as a phono input, as does marantz AV10, and NAD M17 v2 just to name a few.

There's a reason why pre processors and recievers don't have full analogue multi channel inputs anymore. Back in the day it was a great way to get codecs from your dvd player that didn't support them. These days it's kind of a mute point. There isn't any multi channel analogue audio that I'm aware of on the market, everything has moved to Atmos.

There has also been a larger number of brands offering home theater bypass on their stereo pre amps to help integrate them into home theater setups.

gbaby

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #11 on: 17 Dec 2023, 05:52 pm »
I'm sorry but Atmos and DTS X aren't gimmicks. As far as codecs go they are far ahead immersion wise compared to standard Dolby true HD and DTS master audio. The jump from possess surround sound to Atmos is uncanny, and I'm assuming you're calling it a gimmick because you haven't truly experienced a proper Atmos setup.

There are still quite a few pre processors that have an analogue section. Anthems AVM70/AVM90 still has analogue inputs as well as a phono input, as does marantz AV10, and NAD M17 v2 just to name a few.

There's a reason why pre processors and recievers don't have full analogue multi channel inputs anymore. Back in the day it was a great way to get codecs from your dvd player that didn't support them. These days it's kind of a mute point. There isn't any multi channel analogue audio that I'm aware of on the market, everything has moved to Atmos.

There has also been a larger number of brands offering home theater bypass on their stereo pre amps to help integrate them into home theater setups.

I regret to inform you that none of the processors you named have direct analog pass through. All units you named have analog inputs that go through the unit's internal D/A converter. Even the processors that have a turntable input has the analog signal going through the unit's D/A converter. However, this process defeats the purpose. If you have a turntable signal going through a D/A converter, you may as well just play a digital source. I have heard Atmos from a high end audio store and I was not impressed. I cannot get use to sound coming from the ceiling as opposed to the horizontal plane. I don't even like room correction as the sound is different in every seat in the room. The only time you will hear object based in real life is in your home theater with Atmos. You won't hear it in the real world.
« Last Edit: 17 Dec 2023, 11:06 pm by gbaby »

NekoAudio

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #12 on: 18 Dec 2023, 01:42 am »
If you have a turntable signal going through a D/A converter, you may as well just play a digital source.

Inserting an ADC / DAC step into an audio chain does not cause the sound to completely lose the character of the incoming analog signal. I don't think one would argue for using a MIDI keyboard instead of a real piano even if the recording is going to be digitized.

If the overall result is a net positive, then this is a worthwhile addition. If someone prefers a preamp that does happen to perform an ADC on its analog inputs over one that does not, I would tell them to pick the one that does the ADC.

Other benefits may come from being able to apply DSP, or from using a digital volume implementation that is better than the other (analog) options available to someone.

I have heard Atmos from a high end audio store and I was not impressed. I cannot get use to sound coming from the ceiling as opposed to the horizontal plane. I don't even like room correction as the sound is different in every seat in the room. The only time you will hear object based in real life is in your home theater with Atmos. You won't hear it in the real world.

Atmos is certainly a preference, similar to surround sound versus stereo, or stereo versus mono. But object-based audio is what we hear in the real world all the time, and is also the basis for stereo music playback. The timing and volume of sound produced from the two left and right speakers is based on where the original sound source would be, either computed or recorded using a stereo+ microphone.

Surround sound is a direct extension of that principle applied to multiple speakers, whether they are on the horizontal plane or if they also include height speakers. Object-based audio lets you encode the audio separately from number of and physical location of the speakers in use. Prior to object-based audio, the sound was mixed with a fixed speaker setup in mind. Effectively a single mapping of object-based audio onto a specific speaker setup. With object-based audio, there is now the option to dynamically create the mapping that works best for an individual person's speaker setup (although still assuming a fixed set of potential setups based on recommended configurations; using a processor that actually locates the individual speakers allows for truly custom dynamic mapping).

With respect to room correction, the sound will already be different in every seat of a room. The goal of room correction is to minimize those differences, and we know it can do this based on before and after measurements. It is certainly the case that some implementations are better than others.

gbaby

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #13 on: 18 Dec 2023, 02:45 am »
Inserting an ADC / DAC step into an audio chain does not cause the sound to completely lose the character of the incoming analog signal. I don't think one would argue for using a MIDI keyboard instead of a real piano even if the recording is going to be digitized.

If the overall result is a net positive, then this is a worthwhile addition. If someone prefers a preamp that does happen to perform an ADC on its analog inputs over one that does not, I would tell them to pick the one that does the ADC.

Other benefits may come from being able to apply DSP, or from using a digital volume implementation that is better than the other (analog) options available to someone.

Atmos is certainly a preference, similar to surround sound versus stereo, or stereo versus mono. But object-based audio is what we hear in the real world all the time, and is also the basis for stereo music playback. The timing and volume of sound produced from the two left and right speakers is based on where the original sound source would be, either computed or recorded using a stereo+ microphone.

Surround sound is a direct extension of that principle applied to multiple speakers, whether they are on the horizontal plane or if they also include height speakers. Object-based audio lets you encode the audio separately from number of and physical location of the speakers in use. Prior to object-based audio, the sound was mixed with a fixed speaker setup in mind. Effectively a single mapping of object-based audio onto a specific speaker setup. With object-based audio, there is now the option to dynamically create the mapping that works best for an individual person's speaker setup (although still assuming a fixed set of potential setups based on recommended configurations; using a processor that actually locates the individual speakers allows for truly custom dynamic mapping).

With respect to room correction, the sound will already be different in every seat of a room. The goal of room correction is to minimize those differences, and we know it can do this based on before and after measurements. It is certainly the case that some implementations are better than others.

Not trying to be rude, but you have said nothing that I don't already know. We just have different listening preferences.I've purchased enough processors with sound fields, eq and the like to know I like none of it. I want my sound unadulterated. The last time I saw Earth Wind and Fire and Chicago in a concert, there was no Atmos.Atmos is your choice, not mine. Enjoy.

drummermitchell

Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #14 on: 18 Dec 2023, 03:08 am »
POOF,
Earth Wind and Fire and Chicago .....smokin Hot.
Don’t want to derail,
Seen them at Rogers Place Edmonton Alberta a few years back.
No Atmos jus live and in living color.
SUPERB.
Have their Blu-ray Disc which is 5.1 which is excellent.
I’ll end that where we sat the sound was fantastic,separation of instruments ect.
Energy was ....................................... ......phenomenal.
The bass player just cracks me up I’m sure he eats a couple of pounds of sugar just to make sure the guys are in the same pocket as he is.
Energizer for him is just a word. :thumb:.

artur9

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #15 on: 18 Dec 2023, 03:21 am »
I regret to inform you that none of the processors you named have direct analog pass through. ...

I own the Anthem AVM70 and it does have direct analogue passthrough.  The user can choose to digitize (@ 192KHz) and use Anthem's ARC but doesn't have to.  Now, clearly, that means that the RCA input isn't directly connected to the volume knob and other analog preamp features so if that's the only valid criteria, then yeah, it doesn't.

I've been playing with it on and off so I know it's doing something :-)  For example, the subwoofers stop playing with the digitization/ARC off.

My complaints about it are that the input is RCA-only (I have a personal preference for XLR) and toggling it on/off mutes for a few seconds.

NekoAudio

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #16 on: 18 Dec 2023, 07:24 am »
Not trying to be rude, but you have said nothing that I don't already know. We just have different listening preferences.
Certainly, I did not interpret any of your comments as rude. It appears I misinterpreted your earlier posts, as I did not interpret all of your statements as opinion or preference. It was only those portions I was trying to respond to. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

gbaby

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #17 on: 18 Dec 2023, 02:32 pm »
POOF,
Earth Wind and Fire and Chicago .....smokin Hot.
Don’t want to derail,
Seen them at Rogers Place Edmonton Alberta a few years back.
No Atmos jus live and in living color.
SUPERB.
Have their Blu-ray Disc which is 5.1 which is excellent.
I’ll end that where we sat the sound was fantastic,separation of instruments ect.
Energy was ....................................... ......phenomenal.
The bass player just cracks me up I’m sure he eats a couple of pounds of sugar just to make sure the guys are in the same pocket as he is.
Energizer for him is just a word. :thumb:.

No derailment. I was three rows from the stage and I felt I was "IN" the concert. :D Nothing beats the sound of live music to me.

gbaby

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #18 on: 18 Dec 2023, 02:33 pm »
Certainly, I did not interpret any of your comments as rude. It appears I misinterpreted your earlier posts, as I did not interpret all of your statements as opinion or preference. It was only those portions I was trying to respond to. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Its all good.  8)

hipp

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Re: The concept of a new Processor possibly described as an SP5
« Reply #19 on: 19 Dec 2023, 05:45 am »
I'm sorry but Atmos and DTS X aren't gimmicks. As far as codecs go they are far ahead immersion wise compared to standard Dolby true HD and DTS master audio. The jump from possess surround sound to Atmos is uncanny, and I'm assuming you're calling it a gimmick because you haven't truly experienced a proper Atmos setup.

There are still quite a few pre processors that have an analogue section. Anthems AVM70/AVM90 still has analogue inputs as well as a phono input, as does marantz AV10, and NAD M17 v2 just to name a few.

There's a reason why pre processors and recievers don't have full analogue multi channel inputs anymore. Back in the day it was a great way to get codecs from your dvd player that didn't support them. These days it's kind of a mute point. There isn't any multi channel analogue audio that I'm aware of on the market, everything has moved to Atmos.

There has also been a larger number of brands offering home theater bypass on their stereo pre amps to help integrate them into home theater setups.

Anthem AVM 90 looks impressive BUT as far as I see, there is no 7.1 preamp analogue input. 2 channel analogue inputs only. Maybe I’m missing something here.
Marantz 8805 does have 7.1 analogue in as does McIntosh MX 123.

But Im’staying with SP3. Just a great analogue 5.1 pass through.
Pity that it isn’t going to be upgraded with Atmos.
Although my 5.1 is really an immersive setup.