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I've got a bizarre question for everyone:Has anybody actually tried running more 'audiophile' power wire through their walls? (Maybe something like Ven Haus, so it's not to expensive.)I feel like there could be a possibility for a huge difference here, but maybe I'm wrong.-West
Cardas has UL approved Romex. I've never tried it but that is where I'd start if I where going to run something through my walls. If you use something not UL approved your insurance company can give you the shaft even if the wire has nothing to do with your house burning to the ground.
Please forgive me. I'm about to sin.Tito's vodka is distilled six times! Try it. You'll like it!
Oh I can read ok, I just can't spell worth a $hit. Guess you monkeys can't take a joke, huh.
QuoteOh I can read ok, I just can't spell worth a $hit. Guess you monkeys can't take a joke, huh. Best joke I've heard is the guy who spent $7250 on cables. At that price I would definitely believe I heard a difference! I just contacted James Randi and he still has the $1million on offer. I told him you were up for it!
People who's got money are free to spend whichever way they want, don't be a sour-grape...Quote from: millionmonkeys on 3 Jan 2009, 05:36 amQuoteOh I can read ok, I just can't spell worth a $hit. Guess you monkeys can't take a joke, huh. Best joke I've heard is the guy who spent $7250 on cables. At that price I would definitely believe I heard a difference! I just contacted James Randi and he still has the $1million on offer. I told him you were up for it!
Unfortuntely this hobby isn't cheap, you need to pay to play.
Having said all this, are there really any significant audible differences between most cables that can be consistently identified by experienced listeners? The answer is simple: very seldom! Those who claim otherwise do not fully grasp the power of the old Placebo-Effect - which is very alive and well among even the most well-intentioned listeners. The placebo-effect renders audible signatures easy to detect and describe - if the listener knows which cable is being heard. But, take away this knowledge during blind or double-blind listening comparisons and the differences either disappear completely or hover close to the level of random guessing. Speaking as a competent professional engineer, designer and manufacturer, nothing would please me and my company's staff more than being able to design a cable which consistently yielded a positive score during blind listening comparisons against other cables. But it only rarely happens - if we wish to be honest!Oh yes, we have heard of golden-eared audiophiles who claim to be able to consistently identify huge, audible differences between cables. But when these experts have visited our facility and were put to the test under carefully-controlled conditions, they invariably failed to yield a score any better than chance. For example, when led to believe that three popular cables were being compared, varying in size from a high-quality 12 AWG ZIP-CORD to a high-tech looking cable with a diameter exceeding an inch, the largest and sexiest looking cable always scored best - even though the CABLES WERE NEVER CHANGED and they listened to the ZIP Cord the entire time.
Speaking of DBT, has anyone who repeatedly invokes that shibboleth actually participated in one? Do they actually know that a double blind the person doing the switching doesn't know which is which?
How the heck does someone do a dbt on powercords with matched levels and less than 5 seconds between switches? How do you disguise the cords?
QuoteUnfortuntely this hobby isn't cheap, you need to pay to play.But does it need to be as expenive as it is? And maybe, just maybe with some solid facts and a clear understanding of the science behind what we are buying, things might just be a little more affordable?John Dunlavy says it best:QuoteHaving said all this, are there really any significant audible differences between most cables that can be consistently identified by experienced listeners? The answer is simple: very seldom! Those who claim otherwise do not fully grasp the power of the old Placebo-Effect - which is very alive and well among even the most well-intentioned listeners. The placebo-effect renders audible signatures easy to detect and describe - if the listener knows which cable is being heard. But, take away this knowledge during blind or double-blind listening comparisons and the differences either disappear completely or hover close to the level of random guessing. Speaking as a competent professional engineer, designer and manufacturer, nothing would please me and my company's staff more than being able to design a cable which consistently yielded a positive score during blind listening comparisons against other cables. But it only rarely happens - if we wish to be honest!Oh yes, we have heard of golden-eared audiophiles who claim to be able to consistently identify huge, audible differences between cables. But when these experts have visited our facility and were put to the test under carefully-controlled conditions, they invariably failed to yield a score any better than chance. For example, when led to believe that three popular cables were being compared, varying in size from a high-quality 12 AWG ZIP-CORD to a high-tech looking cable with a diameter exceeding an inch, the largest and sexiest looking cable always scored best - even though the CABLES WERE NEVER CHANGED and they listened to the ZIP Cord the entire time.
Quote from: Kevin Haskins on 3 Jan 2009, 01:05 amQuote from: satfrat on 3 Jan 2009, 12:43 amQuote from: warnerwh on 3 Jan 2009, 12:36 amWell you have to complete the discussion. Thus far the believers won't accept a double blind test or measurements. The fact that it's arguable a difference even exists makes it pretty hard to come to a conclusion in a discussion. And you are right it's amazing how much wire gets discussed especially when other parts of most people's system are surely wanting far more than a difference wire can make.In my mind the answer is very simple for both sides, try it and make up your own mind. As with Kevin, if he tries something yet doesn't want to believe his ears, that's his choice that was make from his observations. Many others including myself would rather trust their ears and make wire, conditioner, component and tweak choices based on this. But the important thing here I feel is that you try things for yourself and come up to your own conclusions... especially after listening to everyone elses opinion. To me, that what the hobby is all about. Cheers,RobinI'm with you Robin for making choices for MY OWN system. I use what I think works best for me. I'm much more hesitant to make recommendations for others on voodoo topics for other people. In the context of my own system I feel perfectly comfortable trusting my ears. In the context of giving other people advice on how components 'XYZ' will work in system 'ABC', I have a great deal of hesitancy to give absolute opinions. Especially when there isn't any engineering or scientific basis for the opinion. Yes Kevin, I understand being in the audio business yourself you might be more reluctant making any statements that couldn't be factually proven out, there's credibility issues to be concerned about. Being a simple audionut with an opinion about everything, I'm not held by those standards nor am I held back intellectually by the need to prove everything I think I hear before I can state an opinion on what I think I'm hearing. I'm blessed with a simplicity in my life. aaIf only Paul were so lucky. Cheers,Robin
Quote from: satfrat on 3 Jan 2009, 12:43 amQuote from: warnerwh on 3 Jan 2009, 12:36 amWell you have to complete the discussion. Thus far the believers won't accept a double blind test or measurements. The fact that it's arguable a difference even exists makes it pretty hard to come to a conclusion in a discussion. And you are right it's amazing how much wire gets discussed especially when other parts of most people's system are surely wanting far more than a difference wire can make.In my mind the answer is very simple for both sides, try it and make up your own mind. As with Kevin, if he tries something yet doesn't want to believe his ears, that's his choice that was make from his observations. Many others including myself would rather trust their ears and make wire, conditioner, component and tweak choices based on this. But the important thing here I feel is that you try things for yourself and come up to your own conclusions... especially after listening to everyone elses opinion. To me, that what the hobby is all about. Cheers,RobinI'm with you Robin for making choices for MY OWN system. I use what I think works best for me. I'm much more hesitant to make recommendations for others on voodoo topics for other people. In the context of my own system I feel perfectly comfortable trusting my ears. In the context of giving other people advice on how components 'XYZ' will work in system 'ABC', I have a great deal of hesitancy to give absolute opinions. Especially when there isn't any engineering or scientific basis for the opinion.
Quote from: warnerwh on 3 Jan 2009, 12:36 amWell you have to complete the discussion. Thus far the believers won't accept a double blind test or measurements. The fact that it's arguable a difference even exists makes it pretty hard to come to a conclusion in a discussion. And you are right it's amazing how much wire gets discussed especially when other parts of most people's system are surely wanting far more than a difference wire can make.In my mind the answer is very simple for both sides, try it and make up your own mind. As with Kevin, if he tries something yet doesn't want to believe his ears, that's his choice that was make from his observations. Many others including myself would rather trust their ears and make wire, conditioner, component and tweak choices based on this. But the important thing here I feel is that you try things for yourself and come up to your own conclusions... especially after listening to everyone elses opinion. To me, that what the hobby is all about. Cheers,Robin
Well you have to complete the discussion. Thus far the believers won't accept a double blind test or measurements. The fact that it's arguable a difference even exists makes it pretty hard to come to a conclusion in a discussion. And you are right it's amazing how much wire gets discussed especially when other parts of most people's system are surely wanting far more than a difference wire can make.
Yes, it is worthwhile, indeed.Peace, LeeQuote from: whubbard on 3 Jan 2009, 12:38 amI've got a bizarre question for everyone:Has anybody actually tried running more 'audiophile' power wire through their walls? (Maybe something like Ven Haus, so it's not to expensive.)I feel like there could be a possibility for a huge difference here, but maybe I'm wrong.-West
........Anyway I think a lot of people use "DBT" as longhand for "BT".Quote How the heck does someone do a dbt on powercords with matched levels and less than 5 seconds between switches? How do you disguise the cords?5 seconds is going to be tough on one system.... but many people seem to think longer samples are better anyway. Or you could have two identical systems with the two cords, and alternate with volume controls or something.
But maybe the best way to run this test is to use audiodiffmaker - you can record the electrical output of the system with one cord, then with the other, and literally subtract them to find the differences. If they're below the noise, well...
The thing is, engineering types and "scientific" research guys can be just as irrational although they look more rational doing it. Case in point, Dunlavy spent a lot of time recreating square waves via complex 1st order crossovers. All the current research tends to suggest he was wasting his time and your money doing so. It is interesting to read some history of science. It is filled with brilliant people who had irrational beliefs. The really brilliant guys also often had all kinds of hang-ups and where not the most level-headed people. That isn't to cast stones at the scientific method, it tends to lead us in the right direction over time. It does point out that individual people, no matter how brilliant, are a poor choice of beings to worship.
If they're below the noise, well.... well what????But indeed, your approach does take the use of actual human beings out of the determination as to whether human beings can actually perceive differences.FWIW,Paul
But indeed, your approach does take the use of actual human beings out of the determination as to whether human beings can actually perceive differences.
