[Drofo]

Hey Kevin,
You hit on a wonderful point that is seldom addressed in these discussions. Ego, plain and simple.

There is something amazing when it comes to audio that ego holds such a huge sway over opinions.  I know personally from my explorations in food and music, the we differ fantastically in our abilities to discern the differences in things. Some people can define the components of a soup for instance with an incredible degree of precision, others have no idea. For some this is natural, for some,this can be taught, for others, it is an impossible goal. Yet in audio, one persons opinion is seldom categorically measurable. Does being a designer, "prove" that one has better "ears" than a non designer?  Does being a lifelong afficianado ensure that ones "ears" are unimpeachable. There is no way to compare because as you so eloquenty put it, "is like measuring .001mm with a yardstick during an earthquake". You can't measure 2 independent variables simultaneously.  This is the Heisenberg of audio. You can know about the subject, you can know about the system but the interactions will always be undefined.

If ego were not involved, why then does it matter at all, if someone likes or dislikes the addition of a piece of wire in their system. As can be seen these discussions historically have been fought with fire and brimstone.

Overall, when I compare what recorded music sounds like compared to what real music sounds like, it is totally laughable.  What we recreate is a pretty version of what real music is.  At this point, I certainly don't want musicians, in my room. The sound of an 22" Zildjian, hit hard, is something that I have no desire to reproduce live at home, ever!. What I want is a minaturized version of that same sound, and certainly less aggressive.

I also know that it is so easy to be misled into thinking that there is a wonderful improvement by the addition of a desired "material" into the audio system, only to return later and question the previously certain decision. I am not saying that the proponents of wire and cable are misled. For some strange reason, "Everything" makes a difference, and I freely admit, I have absolutely no idea why.  I do know however, that in years of pursuing this hobby, one of my fave things to do, it to go back to a previous state of affairs months later sometimes to discover that my previous wonderful "improvement" was a change in the overall state of things, and sometimes sacrificed something in order to get that "improvement".  Some times it has been a lateral change. Of course, this is my opinion and my ears, and my Ego (LOL) so take this with a grain of salt too. Or maybe try it yourself.

Here my wish. What I want is the same people who can continually create better and better equipment over the years, using high precision measuring tools, which can measure LCR and the field interactions, to tell me with certainty, which cable interacting with a given balance of shielding, inductance, resistance and capacitance, will ideally match with amplifier of X input impedance, and a preamp of x output and so on.  If all the other parameters of design can be continually improved, why not these.  After all, complex equipment is designed daily where the signal transmission is optimized. Why not for audio. It would certainly simplify the seemingly endless growth of the cable market, and maybe would slow down at least the "holy wars" where cable efficacy is concerned.  Does this make sense?

[Bob in St. Louis]

Does this make sense?

Yes it does.
Good post Drofo! 

Bob

[satfrat]

Would someone like to throw Greg a lifeline so he can pull this thread back on topic that would address his questions? Thanks.

Cheers,
robin

[millionmonkeys]

In trying to get an undertsanding of this topic, I've found the following quite useful in explaining much of the discussion:

http://dbem.ws/SP%20Theory%20Cognitive%20Dissonance.pdf

The following is more a casual read but still interesting. I wonder if James Randi is still offering the $1 million?

http://phineasgage.wordpress.com/2007/10/13/audiophiles-and-the-limitations-of-human-hearing/

This last one is just plain funny:

http://consumerist.com/362926/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables

[satfrat]

HEY millionmonkeys, you related to thread originator funkmonkey in any way? aa

Hate to sound prejudice but all you monkeys look alike anyways.


Cheers,
Robin

[funkmonkey]

Would someone like to throw Greg a lifeline so he can pull this thread back on topic that would address his questions? Thanks.

Cheers,
robin

It's cool Robin.  My specific questions have been answered, in a fashion.  The PowerBar MKII sounds like it may be what I am looking for, but I am a little unclear as to wether or not it regulates voltage fluctuations, everything else about it is right up my alley, though much more swanky looking than I had envisioned.  

The discussion that has ensued is where I had hoped that this thread would end up...  What is the logic behind all the cord and conditioner swapping?  Okay, so sometimes there is no logic.  A power conditioner has one major goal: to stabilize the flow of electrons so that fluctuations on the grid do not affect the end game (what we hear), right?  Power cords are the rivers that the electrons flow down, so we want them to remain pure and smooth flowing, because after all we are going to "drink" from these waters.  Everything in the "river" is going to affect the flavor of the sound, and everybody has different tastes and preferences.  Psycho-acoustics can have a very strong influence...

...What we recreate is a pretty version of what real music is...

Right on, Drofo   the whole post...  
I just quoted what I thought was your most profound statement, because beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder.

After all I am not asking "what is the best power-cord, or power-conditioner?"  I am just trying to understand what benefits that we think we are getting.  I am a pretty rational guy, and for the most part do not believe in Voodoo, but when the hard science is equal, why do we prefer one thing over the other.  One year ago, I would have never imagined that I would even be concerned with a silly power-cord, but 2008 turned into my year of audio re-birth and there are a staggering amount of variables.  I surely have gotten more than I bargained for when last year I decided to purchase a new pair of speakers, and began my journey down this slippery slope. (my Veracity HT3s ship today  )  My path has also led me into the entirely new (to me) world of vacuum tubes as well, with the acquisition of a ModWright Transporter, and a LS 36.5.  A Parasound Halo A51 is poised to drive my HT3s when they arrive.  All my decisions have been based on research, through my own listening, other peoples opinions, and scientific/measured data.  Now, I find myself confronting more Voodoo, and Snake Oil, and psycho-acoustics than anywhere else in the audio realm.  All over some wires ?!    I honestly think there has been more money spent on them, and more controversy over speaker wires, interconnects, and power-cords than any other stereo component.   It really is mind boggling.

Thanks millionmonkeys I will check those out, I just saw your post as I was typing the above.

edit: HA, I've seen the last one before  and read a few similar to the second, have yet to read the first but I get the picture.

[Brown]

Does this make sense?

Yes it does.
Good post Drofo! 

Bob

Got my vote. well said

[warnerwh]

Well you have to complete the discussion.  Thus far the believers won't accept a double blind test or measurements. The fact that it's arguable a difference even exists makes it pretty hard to come to a conclusion in a discussion. And you are right it's amazing how much wire gets discussed especially when other parts of most people's system are surely wanting far more than a difference wire can make.

[whubbard]

I've got a bizarre question for everyone:

Has anybody actually tried running more 'audiophile' power wire through their walls? (Maybe something like Ven Haus, so it's not to expensive.)

I feel like there could be a possibility for a huge difference here, but maybe I'm wrong.

-West

[Kevin Haskins]

I've got a bizarre question for everyone:

Has anybody actually tried running more 'audiophile' power wire through their walls? (Maybe something like Ven Haus, so it's not to expensive.)

I feel like there could be a possibility for a huge difference here, but maybe I'm wrong.

-West

Cardas has UL approved Romex.   I've never tried it but that is where I'd start if I where going to run something through my walls.    If you use something not UL approved your insurance company can give you the shaft even if the wire has nothing to do with your house burning to the ground. 

[satfrat]

Well you have to complete the discussion.  Thus far the believers won't accept a double blind test or measurements. The fact that it's arguable a difference even exists makes it pretty hard to come to a conclusion in a discussion. And you are right it's amazing how much wire gets discussed especially when other parts of most people's system are surely wanting far more than a difference wire can make.

In my mind the answer is very simple for both sides, try it and make up your own mind. As with Kevin, if he tries something yet doesn't want to believe his ears, that's his choice that was make from his observations. Many others including myself would rather trust their ears and make wire, conditioner, component and tweak choices based on this. But the important thing here I feel is that you try things for yourself and come up to your own conclusions... especially after listening to everyone elses opinion. To me, that what the hobby is all about.

Cheers,
Robin

[Kevin Haskins]

Hey Kevin,
You hit on a wonderful point that is seldom addressed in these discussions. Ego, plain and simple.

There is something amazing when it comes to audio that ego holds such a huge sway over opinions.  I know personally from my explorations in food and music, the we differ fantastically in our abilities to discern the differences in things. Some people can define the components of a soup for instance with an incredible degree of precision, others have no idea. For some this is natural, for some,this can be taught, for others, it is an impossible goal. Yet in audio, one persons opinion is seldom categorically measurable. Does being a designer, "prove" that one has better "ears" than a non designer?  Does being a lifelong afficianado ensure that ones "ears" are unimpeachable. There is no way to compare because as you so eloquenty put it, "is like measuring .001mm with a yardstick during an earthquake". You can't measure 2 independent variables simultaneously.  This is the Heisenberg of audio. You can know about the subject, you can know about the system but the interactions will always be undefined.

If ego were not involved, why then does it matter at all, if someone likes or dislikes the addition of a piece of wire in their system. As can be seen these discussions historically have been fought with fire and brimstone.

Overall, when I compare what recorded music sounds like compared to what real music sounds like, it is totally laughable.  What we recreate is a pretty version of what real music is.  At this point, I certainly don't want musicians, in my room. The sound of an 22" Zildjian, hit hard, is something that I have no desire to reproduce live at home, ever!. What I want is a minaturized version of that same sound, and certainly less aggressive.

I also know that it is so easy to be misled into thinking that there is a wonderful improvement by the addition of a desired "material" into the audio system, only to return later and question the previously certain decision. I am not saying that the proponents of wire and cable are misled. For some strange reason, "Everything" makes a difference, and I freely admit, I have absolutely no idea why.  I do know however, that in years of pursuing this hobby, one of my fave things to do, it to go back to a previous state of affairs months later sometimes to discover that my previous wonderful "improvement" was a change in the overall state of things, and sometimes sacrificed something in order to get that "improvement".  Some times it has been a lateral change. Of course, this is my opinion and my ears, and my Ego (LOL) so take this with a grain of salt too. Or maybe try it yourself.

Here my wish. What I want is the same people who can continually create better and better equipment over the years, using high precision measuring tools, which can measure LCR and the field interactions, to tell me with certainty, which cable interacting with a given balance of shielding, inductance, resistance and capacitance, will ideally match with amplifier of X input impedance, and a preamp of x output and so on.  If all the other parameters of design can be continually improved, why not these.  After all, complex equipment is designed daily where the signal transmission is optimized. Why not for audio. It would certainly simplify the seemingly endless growth of the cable market, and maybe would slow down at least the "holy wars" where cable efficacy is concerned.  Does this make sense?

The fact is, that most people designing equipment (Electrical Engineers) think that audiophile cable is nonsense.    Outside of proper shielding, routing and taking care of the basics (all of which cost about $0.50/ft).     The exceptions are some of the audiophile/engineers, some of whom are pretty "unconventional" to begin with.    Just because you have a degree doesn't mean that your elevator goes all the way to the top.  

Cooking and something like wine reviewers are probably good analogies.   There was a study with wine reviewers.   They did a controlled study on these guys who write reviews for the industry and it turns out they couldn't reliably determine the difference between the cheap $5/bottle stuff and the mega dollar carefully aged and cultured $500 bottles of wine (neither can I).  

Same with audio.   If you put things under controlled testing a lot of the things we go crazy over cannot be reliably detected in a scientifically valid way.   Are the differences due to these perceived things real or not?   Hell... it doesn't matter.   All the matters is that you are happy with the end results.   If spending big dollars on cables or tweaks turns your crank, then I'd say go for it.  

[Kevin Haskins]

Well you have to complete the discussion.  Thus far the believers won't accept a double blind test or measurements. The fact that it's arguable a difference even exists makes it pretty hard to come to a conclusion in a discussion. And you are right it's amazing how much wire gets discussed especially when other parts of most people's system are surely wanting far more than a difference wire can make.

In my mind the answer is very simple for both sides, try it and make up your own mind. As with Kevin, if he tries something yet doesn't want to believe his ears, that's his choice that was make from his observations. Many others including myself would rather trust their ears and make wire, conditioner, component and tweak choices based on this. But the important thing here I feel is that you try things for yourself and come up to your own conclusions... especially after listening to everyone elses opinion. To me, that what the hobby is all about.

Cheers,
Robin

I'm with you Robin for making choices for MY OWN system.   I use what I think works best for me.  

I'm much more hesitant to make recommendations for others on voodoo topics for other people.   In the context of my own system I feel perfectly comfortable trusting my ears.   In the context of giving other people advice on how components 'XYZ' will work in system 'ABC', I have a great deal of hesitancy to give absolute opinions.   Especially when there isn't any engineering or scientific basis for the opinion.       

[Occam]

West,

Actually yes, my audio system's power is fed from the panel to its receptacles with a star quad H-N with a separate outside the starquad cable 10ga ground, all in  fire rated metallic conduit which also serves as a telscoping shield.
Although this wire is fire rated above that of approved in wall power cabling, NYC building/fire codes require metallic conduit. This is actually the same cable I use for captive cords.

And yes, I believe it made a significant improvement, although it was less than 12' from panel to outlets. But sadly, I found it difficult to perform a valid DBT.

Speaking of DBT, has anyone who repeatedly invokes that shibboleth actually participated in one? Do they actually know that a double blind the person doing the switching doesn't know which is which? How the heck does someone do a dbt on powercords with matched levels and less than 5 seconds between switches? How do you disguise the cords?

I'm trying, honest.
I'm awaiting delivery of the gewgaw described below. It should allow me to make valid comparisons between powercords, interconnects, and digital cables, leastwise on the dac.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=51928.msg538587#msg538587

...........
I know you guys love to compare stuff.

I know which one will sound better, but it would not hurt for someone totally impartial to say what they think.

Pat

Apologies for the threadjack, 're-purposing' of your comments and other ill mannered behavior to bend your work to my pernicious needs.

But therein lies the rub..... Given the transitory nature of auditory memory, what one really wants to do is have 2 not interfering spdif outputs, putting out the same datastream, so that one can switch the outputs via a preamp of 2 exactly the same dacs. This would allow one to actually compare the differences between power cords, interconnects, spdif cables, etc.... on those dacs.

So Pat, would you do me a 'special', your mods with TWO (isolated?) spdif outputs? It would be a grand boon to those in our community, and my own self serving needs. I'm tired of those posts prefaced with "As and engineer/scientist, its absurd to suggest...." (much like Star Jones -"I'm a lawyer"), dismissing via thought experiment that which should/could be addressed empirically. I assume such is not trivial and not practical without mucho re-engineering; but one can hope.

Regards,
Paul

FWIW,
Paul

[funkmonkey]

Well you have to complete the discussion.  Thus far the believers won't accept a double blind test or measurements. The fact that it's arguable a difference even exists makes it pretty hard to come to a conclusion in a discussion. And you are right it's amazing how much wire gets discussed especially when other parts of most people's system are surely wanting far more than a difference wire can make.

You're joking, right?    How could I possibly complete the discussion?  Once I actually experiment with different cords and conditioners, I will be glad to post my opinions...  Besides, you said it yourself: "The fact that it's arguable a difference even exists makes it pretty hard to come to a conclusion in a discussion."  I think this discussion will continue for a long time to come, at least until there is a quantitative way to measure the perceived differences.  Until then it is an open ended discussion.

I am curious, does anyone know if nano-tech has been applied to any of this yet?

[satfrat]

Well you have to complete the discussion.  Thus far the believers won't accept a double blind test or measurements. The fact that it's arguable a difference even exists makes it pretty hard to come to a conclusion in a discussion. And you are right it's amazing how much wire gets discussed especially when other parts of most people's system are surely wanting far more than a difference wire can make.

In my mind the answer is very simple for both sides, try it and make up your own mind. As with Kevin, if he tries something yet doesn't want to believe his ears, that's his choice that was make from his observations. Many others including myself would rather trust their ears and make wire, conditioner, component and tweak choices based on this. But the important thing here I feel is that you try things for yourself and come up to your own conclusions... especially after listening to everyone elses opinion. To me, that what the hobby is all about.

Cheers,
Robin

I'm with you Robin for making choices for MY OWN system.   I use what I think works best for me.  

I'm much more hesitant to make recommendations for others on voodoo topics for other people.   In the context of my own system I feel perfectly comfortable trusting my ears.   In the context of giving other people advice on how components 'XYZ' will work in system 'ABC', I have a great deal of hesitancy to give absolute opinions.   Especially when there isn't any engineering or scientific basis for the opinion.       

Yes Kevin, I understand being in the audio business yourself you might be more reluctant making any statements that couldn't be factually proven out, there's credibility issues to be concerned about. Being a simple audionut with an opinion about everything, I'm not held by those standards nor am I held back intellectually by the need to prove everything I think I hear before I can state an opinion on what I think I'm hearing. I'm blessed with a simplicity in my life. aa

If only Paul were so lucky.

Cheers,
Robin

[Crimson]

Please forgive me. I'm about to sin.

Tito's vodka is distilled six times! Try it. You'll like it! 

[JIMV]

Just like I'm pretty sure the way a TV works is magic, I feel the same way about power cables.  Heck pretty much all of audio seems like a magic trick to me. 

Heck, if I actually had to explain why these things worked before I could render a verdict on how they sound, I'd need a new hobby. Just 'cause I can't explain it doesn't mean I don't hear it. I truly want someone to understand and explain the technical reasons for things, but I feel that our current technical knowledge is so far from being able to describe our current state-of-the-art in music reproduction and perception that it doesn't bother me in the least to say "I dunno, but just listen to the green pen/powercord/cd treatment etc."   

-Mike

All I know is that the highs are more clear and the sound stage broader. A dedicated line makes an even bigger impact in an old home and something like a PS Audio power station has the potential to do magic...or not. As it is grotesquely expensive, my willingness to devote money sort of tells you my level of belief in these changes.

[millionmonkeys]

Hate to sound prejudice but all you monkeys like alike anyways

You really should read things occassionally...it doesn't hurt much. Even us monkeys can do it!


Dissonance theory reasons that any unfavorable aspects of the chosen alternative and any favorable aspects of the rejected alternatives provide cognitions that are dissonant with the cognition that the individual has chosen as he did. To reduce the resulting dissonance pressure, the individual exaggerates the favorable features of the chosen alternative and plays down its unfavorable aspects. This leads him to enhance his rating of the chosen alternative. Similar reasoning predicts that he will lower his rating of the rejected alternatives.

[satfrat]

Hate to sound prejudice but all you monkeys like alike anyways

You really should read things occassionally...it doesn't hurt much. Even us monkeys can do it!


Dissonance theory reasons that any unfavorable aspects of the chosen alternative and any favorable aspects of the rejected alternatives provide cognitions that are dissonant with the cognition that the individual has chosen as he did. To reduce the resulting dissonance pressure, the individual exaggerates the favorable features of the chosen alternative and plays down its unfavorable aspects. This leads him to enhance his rating of the chosen alternative. Similar reasoning predicts that he will lower his rating of the rejected alternatives.

Oh I can read ok, I just can't spell worth a $hit.   Guess you monkeys can't take a joke, huh. aa

Cheers,
Robin