[Browntrout]

Hello FunkyMonkey I shall answer your questions......

  """If you use a power conditioner, are the after-market PC's doing any good when installed down stream of that conditioner? 
   -The juice is already filtered by the conditioner, right?
-Some PC's are designed to plug directly into the wall.
   -Is there any difference in what these power cords are doing, compared a power conditioner?
   -Are they not functioning in essentially the same manner?
-Power cords are often used as a "tuning" device to help dial in the sound
-Conditioners lower the noise floor and so do PC's."""


No 1. Yes they do have an effect. In fact the better the connection and quality of conductors between a component and the conditioner determines to a noticable degree the effect the conditioner has. (look at them like tyres on a car, no matter how good the engine is if your contact with the road (component) is poor so is your drive and handling)

No 2. The juice may be 'filtered' but powercords and mains conditioners do different things.

No 3. a, A powercord plugged directly into a wall will do different things than a power conditioner. It will/should reduce the impedence of the mains, increase the speed of current delivery and depending upon construction reduce/reject some forms of noise on the mains.
        b, A power conditioner cannot reduce impedence or increase speed of current delivery ( can do the opposite of these things to detrimental effect). It can be very good at removing different types of noise on the mains including surges and transient spikes, Radio Frequency (and above) noise and some can control voltage etc.
 No 4.  A powercord should not be used to 'dial' in a sound. It should be used to allow the device it is conncted to (whatever that is be it source, power amp, tv etc)  perform to the best of it's abilities.
          Power conditioners will lower noise floor and most powercords will also. Some powercords are designed to remove noise and reject it and others just to reject it.
   Hope this answers your questions.
   If you want my advice I would use woven type powercords (without shielding they remove noise by capacitive inductance and reject it by not presenting the form of an aerial) and passive type mains filtering. These filters should be plugged-in 'after' the component so as to not 'alter' the sound. This is the approach I use and it works beautifully, not changing the sound as such but allowing it to come through unadulterated.

[satfrat]

Thank you all for your honesty, and candor.  It is truly appreciated.
I am open to a DIY conditioner.  Actually, this might be somewhat desirable, because it would allow me to give it a form factor that would suit my needs better.  I could (but would rather not) have something designed to fit in a rack.  I've got a space thats about 6"x6"x24" that I would like to use for a power center, or a few inches of rack if need be.  Though I am no electrical engineer, I managed to make a Jacob's ladder out of an old neon transformer... (very easy to do)  but, I guess I would be trying to eliminate an arc rather than create one, huh?     I'm not concerned about hurting myself, but I would hate to damage any of my equipment...     If I can understand it, I can build it.  But if there is something commercially available, and not too expensive...  I will sleep better, if you know what I mean.

I will get a Hubbell duplex for the wall, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Regeneration? that sounds intriguing, got any links?

Thanks again, so far you all have been very helpful.
Cheers,
Greg

Greg, seeing how Tyson has already posted you might be interested in reading about his own personal answer to his power concerns in his system. I too am a very firm believer in Bybee's (regardless of their cost) I have 2 large Bybees before my BPT balanced transformer and 2 large Bybees after that lead to the duplex outlet. Some like balanced power, others don't but if a high end power strip is to your liking and you like the provided link you know who to talk to with any questions you might have.

Cheers,
Robin

[BobM]

In light of all of the controversy recently about what can actually be heard vs what is expected, I did a little experiment last night. My in-laws came over for dinner last night. My father in law is definitely no audiophile. He's an ex-cop with a stereotyped mentality about all things technical. He loves power tools and such but smirks at me greatly when I tell him about my "audiophile" habit. Basically it's all baloney to him. So .. a skeptic.

He's heard my system before and says it sounds great. But he does not have any "trained" ears. So I sat him down and explained what to listen for ... the tinkly things on the top end, the big deep bass, the sense of a room and air and space around the singer and instruments, etc.

Then I played some music with my good power cords. I then swapped out the one cord on my amp for a cord that I know sounds darker and more closed in (I will leave brand names out of this). He said he heard a slight difference. I then swapped back and he said, yes, definitely he heard a difference in all those things I pointed out to him originally (not during the test, I let him make up his own mind).

I didn't tell him that I was starting with good and going to less good then back again. I just swapped them and let him make his own judgements. OK, not terribly scientific but I proved to myself that non-audiophiles can hear a difference in these things.

Of course, being the cop that he is, he asked why a silly cord can make a difference. I told him if I could answer that I would be a genius and leader in this industry with a patent pending, for sure. When I told him prices he just laughed and said there wasn't THAT big a difference. OK, from his perspective I can understand, but from an audiophile perspective that's what it's all about - that last little bit of improvement. So I likened the cost of these power cords to a new top of the line cross cut saw. You really don't need all of that power and adjustability since you're not a cabinetmaker, but you feel you need it anyway. He got that one right away.

Anyway, thought I'd share.

Bob

[TheChairGuy]

Yeah Bob - it's all about that last 10%

Off the shelf systems play music adequately for the masses...it's the few and weird audiophools like us that crave that last 10%....and it's mighty costly to approach it.

I hear differences in power cords, too, but wish I didn't I'm agnostic on the subject of audiophile cords now just because management of them all proved to drive me batty....but I find there are differences, to be sure.

John

[Marbles]

Yeah Bob - it's all about that last 10%

Off the shelf systems play music adequately for the masses...it's the few and weird audiophools like us that crave that last 10%....and it's mighty costly to approach it.

I hear differences in power cords, too, but wish I didn't I'm agnostic on the subject of audiophile cords now just because management of them all proved to drive me batty....but I find there are differences, to be sure.

John

I've heard differences with some and not with others.

Just like I'm pretty sure the way a TV works is magic, I feel the same way about power cables.  Heck pretty much all of audio seems like a magic trick to me. 

[Dan_ed]

Um but you are not trying to keep the signals other than 60hz in-tact in the AC power. Filtering makes since because it has no affect on removing the 60hz which you do not even need per-say, you only need the right voltage and current, and besides that it gets converted to DC. There is no "integrity" to keep in-tact with AC unless you are loosing current or voltage to a point where it becomes a concern. The only thing you want to keep is the regular values and ability for dynamic changes on tap. It is not the same philosophy as interconnects in that respect . Once again this all has a LOT to do with your components of your stereo anyways.

That's right! I forgot. There is no such thing as noisy DC.   

I am not trying to insult you but... you do not know how transformers and rectifiers work to get DC from AC do you, or how things are amplified do you? There is a direct relationship yes, and noise on DC matters yes, but there is undesirable noise and signal (which you want). AC mains has no signal per say.

I sense a language barrier between us so my sarcastic attempts at some humor didn't work well. Therfore, I won't press this with you because I believe we're not that far apart, just not communicating.     

I guess the U.S. education system has let me down. My degrees in electrical and computer engineering don't seem to be serving me very well. Oooppss! There I go again with the sarcasm. 

Putting on my audiophool hat now and addressing everyone again.

If you stick ANY component in the chain it will make a difference. It may not always be audible but it is having an effect. A power conditioner cannot add anything, but it can take away and take away a lot. I've not heard any conditioner that I thought wasn't taking too much away for my tastes. I find the same with most power cords, and interconnects if we want to expand the topic a bit more. Admittedly, I haven't heard them all. I love what they do for my HDTV though.

I would use the analogy of vinyl playback. Yes, there is surface noise to some degree and the music would sound even better if that were not the case. Eliminating it completely is too high of a price to pay. If an LP sounds that bad, replace it. If the grid supplied power sounds that bad, the best thing to do is replace it either with regeneration or complete generation. Maybe a conditioner will help in the less extreme cases, but again, I submit that there is a sonic price paid.

I agree with Browntrout's post for the most part. In my opinion and experience there is more to making any audio cable than just picking a superior connector and wire. That one cable is a system in itself. The capacitance matters. The dielectric matters. (And by the way, air is the best dielectric.) The geometry of multi-strand conductors does matter.

Physics (the last refuge of an audiophool, crap I did it again!  ) as we understand it now does not explain why one person hears differently than another. There are no terms in any of Maxwell's equations that have been identified with determining how anyone will like the sound. However, we all know that one capacitor or inductor or resistor usually sounds different from another. We do know that the usual suspects, capacitance/inductance/resistance, have an influence on what eventually reaches our ears. One thing is a definite in my mind. Price, whether small or outrageous, doesn't always equate to sonic benefit determined by personal preferences.

I haven't offered much in the way of direct advice for funkmonkey. There are many good suggestions offered here. All I can really add is to trust your own ears. Only you can decide what works and doesn't work for you in your system. Be brave, open your mind, color outside the lines. Be prepared to fail and try again. I find that much of the enjoyment I get from this hobby comes in learning from experimentation.

Good luck and enjoy!

[mfsoa]

Just like I'm pretty sure the way a TV works is magic, I feel the same way about power cables.  Heck pretty much all of audio seems like a magic trick to me. 

Heck, if I actually had to explain why these things worked before I could render a verdict on how they sound, I'd need a new hobby. Just 'cause I can't explain it doesn't mean I don't hear it. I truly want someone to understand and explain the technical reasons for things, but I feel that our current technical knowledge is so far from being able to describe our current state-of-the-art in music reproduction and perception that it doesn't bother me in the least to say "I dunno, but just listen to the green pen/powercord/cd treatment etc."   

-Mike

[Kevin Haskins]

Just like I'm pretty sure the way a TV works is magic, I feel the same way about power cables.  Heck pretty much all of audio seems like a magic trick to me. 

Heck, if I actually had to explain why these things worked before I could render a verdict on how they sound, I'd need a new hobby. Just 'cause I can't explain it doesn't mean I don't hear it. I truly want someone to understand and explain the technical reasons for things, but I feel that our current technical knowledge is so far from being able to describe our current state-of-the-art in music reproduction and perception that it doesn't bother me in the least to say "I dunno, but just listen to the green pen/powercord/cd treatment etc."   

-Mike

Actually, as an engineer I feel just the opposite.   I think we have pretty much 99.99% of the figuring out done when it comes to the signal.   What is a much bigger variable is the room and the study of perception.    We can measure with pretty much 100% certainty what is happening to the signal in the electronic domain.  The transducer can only react to changes in that signal.   Those things all easily fall into what can be described by basic first year college physics.   Basically, the coil in a transducer only reacts to changes in voltage & current.   If you don't have any measured changes in those quantities, it is terribly difficult to argue that it is making a real change in the output of a loudspeaker.    It requires leaps of faith into the supernatural to believe otherwise.   

When it gets to the transducer & out into the room things get ugly.  At that point there is a lot more debate about what the right approach is to achieve the best sound.   Part of the problem is that your not dealing with an absolutes.   How much reflected energy vs. direct is right?  How important are first reflections?   What level of distortion is audible and what spectrum of distortion components are best?   What should be the dispersion characteristics of the loudspeaker?   Where should the listener sit in relation to the speakers?   What level of dynamic headroom is needed?   What do you do about low frequency room modes and what level of non-linearity is acceptable?   What about early reflections and and diffraction?   How important is the phase/time issues and how much deviation from normal is acceptable?   

All of these types of things are easily measured.   All of them have research being done to try and determine answers.   For many of them we have a pretty good general idea on how an "average" listener will determine "better/worse".    We will never have an absolute answer on what will sound best to an individual or with a range of source material.   Why?   Because individuals are not necessarily looking for the same attributes in the playback.   Source material varies and the mastering of a given recording has HUGE variables in how it is done.   Multiple mics are used.  Not one of them actually has "THE" signal.   Each is equalized, blended and tailored by the mastering engineer to achieve a "sound" that they are looking for.   The final product isn't the result of the original performance, it is the result of what the mastering engineer likes from combining multiple sources of recording from different mics.    There isn't anything pure about any of it.   None of it represents the "original".    It is just an artistic rendering of it.   

All of these things are the bigger variables in my mind.   There are not absolute answers to any of them, just guidelines and degrees of "correct" solutions.   

[warnerwh]

+1000  You're exactly right.  Very well articulated too.

[Folsom]

Dan_ed there is no tone in text, you of all people should understand that .

I will just assume you are very sarcastic from now on!


The discussion on power conditioners, well that also has to do with what type of power conditioner. Besides the cost, the actual affect an isolating transformer has scares me, as I see it as a villain that can interrupt speed and demand of the electricity. I could be wrong but I tend to stay away from things like that.

I think another thing to discuss would be the regular way of measuring things. It seems pretty clear to be that much more accurate (but possible) and detailed measurements need to be taken to tell the difference between some things like resistor A and resistor B which are audibly VERY different but not so much on the multi-meter or even on the scope. Our lack of damn near super physics measuring is what leaves us open to endless stupid debate sometimes.

[bwaslo]

If you don't have any measured changes in those quantities, it is terribly difficult to argue that it is making a real change in the output of a loudspeaker.

Kevin,

No major disagreement here on that, but there is another possibility that may be being overlooked concerning whether cables and tweaks are being "heard" by a listener: The tweaks can be having an effect on the listener rather than on what is being listened to.  The output of a loudspeaker isn't all that is happening.

And not only by the obvious ways (such as his knowing the tweak is there, liking the way it looks, knowing how much it cost him, etc -- factors that get discussed to death in these forums).  It might also happen from physical, but non-signal changes: an amplifier may make an acoustical hum that never appears on the electrical audio signal (I have an amp that makes a barely perceptible hum from the power transformer).  Or heat from a Class A amp might change the comfort level of a room, or the light of glowing tubes can calm a listener's nerves similarly to how candlelight does. Maybe electromagnetic effects could be picked up by the listener himself (well, maybe... though probably that one isn't so likely).  CD drives and turntables make physical noises directly, and even if silent while music is being played, the noises preceding the music could affect how a listener perceives the sound.  Odors from equipment heating up or just being new may have an effect (it sure seems to affect how people feel about a new car).  "Listening" is a complicated process involving a brain and various senses besides just hearing, more is involved than would be with just a microphone (or scope probe).

It's not usually too hard to determine whether an electronic signal is getting changed (such as with my DiffMaker software), but that may not tell the whole story about what affects listening.

[Kevin Haskins]

I think another thing to discuss would be the regular way of measuring things. It seems pretty clear to be that much more accurate (but possible) and detailed measurements need to be taken to tell the difference between some things like resistor A and resistor B which are audibly VERY different but not so much on the multi-meter or even on the scope. Our lack of damn near super physics measuring is what leaves us open to endless stupid debate sometimes.

Here is where the confusion lies.   What is measured, often has no meaning to people who are not intimate with the process of measurement and the physical causes behind the things that influence that measurement.    Also, what is measured often has no real relevance to what is heard.    It doesn't take "super-physics" to describe this stuff.    Hearing is a complex phenomena though that involves interpretation of the individual.   It is a process involving our brain that involves mood, emotional reactions and other variables that are impossible to untangle in a way to reach a consensus.   It is a process that is the total antithesis to valid measurement processes.    You cannot have a subjective experience and give it meaningful feedback without controlled conditions that involve group studies that take into account the fallibility of our perceptions.    An individual hearing differences outside of a controlled study is meaningless in terms of scientifically valid studies.   It is like trying to take a 0.001 mm  measurement with a yard stick during a major earthquake.   You may feel that it is a valid data point but not many people would agree with you.  

[Marbles]

I'm sure the differences I heard in swapping out my power cables and the Ridge Street Audio cables (where I heard the biggest differences) were measurable, we just didn't have the equipment on hand to do it...and I doubt very many audiophiles do either.

For now I like my previously held belief in "magic"

[bwaslo]

Marbles,

But "Measurement" doesn't exclude listening, somewhere in all measurements the tester has to perceive a result somehow.  If you record a signal under two different conditions, the signals can be subtracted and the result listened to -- ears can be used with instrumentation, just as eyes can.   If the ears aren't 'super physics' enough, then what are we talking about?

edit: But you have to make the process objective to refer to it as a measurement (rather than just an opinion)

[Browntrout]

I've spent quite a bit of time reading up on the more interesting side of hifi and have found a chap called Ben Duncan to have done most of the testing and research required to justify what we hear with these things.  I once tried to buy  some of his papers but the retailer was out of stock and as you can imagine the demand is not high.
   If you have the time or inclination to read some of his work it will explain alot about the fundamentals of hifi. In fact Russ Andrews was recently accused of missleading advertising by someone and the EEI upheld the claim, he then went out and commisioned Ben Duncan to test his powercords ability to remove interference in the mains supply. He has pubished this work and is now asking the EEI to re-address their findings.
http://www.benduncanresearch.com/

[loudnclear]

Before changing power cords or using a conditioner, optimize the power from the breaker box to the wall socket:

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/acpowerdist.cfm

This is what's done for computer rooms, recording studios, and professional audio installations. Balancing the AC power rejects noise before it even gets to the equipment.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Interesting article, thank you for posting that.

Bob

[satfrat]

Just like I'm pretty sure the way a TV works is magic, I feel the same way about power cables.  Heck pretty much all of audio seems like a magic trick to me. 

Heck, if I actually had to explain why these things worked before I could render a verdict on how they sound, I'd need a new hobby. Just 'cause I can't explain it doesn't mean I don't hear it. I truly want someone to understand and explain the technical reasons for things, but I feel that our current technical knowledge is so far from being able to describe our current state-of-the-art in music reproduction and perception that it doesn't bother me in the least to say "I dunno, but just listen to the green pen/powercord/cd treatment etc."   

-Mike

This is the only plasible answer so far that even concerns me personally. Spot on Mike I for one live the music, engulf myself in the music, how this happens I could care less so long as I'm there. Maybe that's why I feel I hear the most subtle differences in cabling, conditioning, most anything I do with my system. It either moves me or it doesn't stay. But for everything I've either done or tried, the biggie for me is power conditioning and that encircles many forms not only including voltage regulators like George eluded to but cryogenics, not of just cables but total components. Until you've experiences the blackness that's created from cryoing everything in your system, it's very easy to simply dismiss it and say it's all in your head. I feel I know better from personal experience so it really makes no difference to me what the naysayers have to say. Same goes for most anything that I've personally experienced. I'm sure if I was the type to be too smart for my own good, I'm bless to be free of this , I would question everything that I couldn't explain on a paper and psychoanalyze or deny everything I heard. Instead I simply embrace the benefits from all these little tweaks as they do add up in time I believe.

So Mike,,,, you the man!

Cheers,
Robin

[Kevin Haskins]

If you don't have any measured changes in those quantities, it is terribly difficult to argue that it is making a real change in the output of a loudspeaker.

Kevin,

No major disagreement here on that, but there is another possibility that may be being overlooked concerning whether cables and tweaks are being "heard" by a listener: The tweaks can be having an effect on the listener rather than on what is being listened to.  The output of a loudspeaker isn't all that is happening.

And not only by the obvious ways (such as his knowing the tweak is there, liking the way it looks, knowing how much it cost him, etc -- factors that get discussed to death in these forums).  It might also happen from physical, but non-signal changes: an amplifier may make an acoustical hum that never appears on the electrical audio signal (I have an amp that makes a barely perceptible hum from the power transformer).  Or heat from a Class A amp might change the comfort level of a room, or the light of glowing tubes can calm a listener's nerves similarly to how candlelight does. Maybe electromagnetic effects could be picked up by the listener himself (well, maybe... though probably that one isn't so likely).  CD drives and turntables make physical noises directly, and even if silent while music is being played, the noises preceding the music could affect how a listener perceives the sound.  Odors from equipment heating up or just being new may have an effect (it sure seems to affect how people feel about a new car).  "Listening" is a complicated process involving a brain and various senses besides just hearing, more is involved than would be with just a microphone (or scope probe).

It's not usually too hard to determine whether an electronic signal is getting changed (such as with my DiffMaker software), but that may not tell the whole story about what affects listening.

Yes. I agree.   The problem lies in that most people have a significant amount of confidence in their subjective experience.   Why?  I don't know.   I think a lot of times it has to do with ego.   

I'm not immune.   When I do a speaker design I spend the last part listening and make design choices based upon my subjective opinion.   If someone doesn't like it my feelings get hurt.   

BTW:   Praxis rocks!   

[satfrat]

If you don't have any measured changes in those quantities, it is terribly difficult to argue that it is making a real change in the output of a loudspeaker.

Kevin,

No major disagreement here on that, but there is another possibility that may be being overlooked concerning whether cables and tweaks are being "heard" by a listener: The tweaks can be having an effect on the listener rather than on what is being listened to.  The output of a loudspeaker isn't all that is happening.

And not only by the obvious ways (such as his knowing the tweak is there, liking the way it looks, knowing how much it cost him, etc -- factors that get discussed to death in these forums).  It might also happen from physical, but non-signal changes: an amplifier may make an acoustical hum that never appears on the electrical audio signal (I have an amp that makes a barely perceptible hum from the power transformer).  Or heat from a Class A amp might change the comfort level of a room, or the light of glowing tubes can calm a listener's nerves similarly to how candlelight does. Maybe electromagnetic effects could be picked up by the listener himself (well, maybe... though probably that one isn't so likely).  CD drives and turntables make physical noises directly, and even if silent while music is being played, the noises preceding the music could affect how a listener perceives the sound.  Odors from equipment heating up or just being new may have an effect (it sure seems to affect how people feel about a new car).  "Listening" is a complicated process involving a brain and various senses besides just hearing, more is involved than would be with just a microphone (or scope probe).

It's not usually too hard to determine whether an electronic signal is getting changed (such as with my DiffMaker software), but that may not tell the whole story about what affects listening.

Yes. I agree.   The problem lies in that most people have a significant amount of confidence in their subjective experience.   Why?  I don't know.   I think a lot of times it has to do with ego.   

I'm not immune.   When I do a speaker design I spend the last part listening and make design choices based upon my subjective opinion.   If someone doesn't like it my feelings get hurt.   

BTW:   Praxis rocks!   

As well it should Kevin, if you're the type of guy who's concerned about satisfying his customers which I feel is of the upmost concern for most of you guys in the audio business.

Cheers,
robin