[funkmonkey]

There has been a whole lot of discussion lately about after market power cords and how they affect sound.  All this talk has really got me thinking about the logic of buying a separate cord for each component.  I'm not sure how to phrase what I am getting at, so bear with me if this comes out a little scattered... maybe best to bullet a list of points & questions to start and see if you guys follow my logic, and what you have to say:

-If you use a power conditioner, are the after-market PC's doing any good when installed down stream of that conditioner? 
   -The juice is already filtered by the conditioner, right?
-Some PC's are designed to plug directly into the wall.
   -Is there any difference in what these power cords are doing, compared a power conditioner?
   -Are they not functioning in essentially the same manner?
-Power cords are often used as a "tuning" device to help dial in the sound
-Conditioners lower the noise floor and so do PC's.
 
So here is what I am getting at.  If you find a power cord that does what you want and it is designed to run directly off the wall socket, could it not save a lot of money if this "cord" was attached to a power strip rather than a single component?
You could then, theoretically, plug in your entire system to that strip and receive it's benefits system wide, still using the stock PC's to the individual components...  acting as a "filter" for everything else down stream?  Or is it the other components in the system that these PCs are trying to separate themselves from?  I know that people also claim unique synergies between cord and device... this would still be open for experimentation.

It just seems to me that a lot of this stuff is redundant.  I, for one, do not have the money to buy a power conditioner and three or four power cords.  I fully realize that these are tweaks, and not essential to have an operational system, therefore they are considered to be luxuries by my standards.  Surge protection makes sense to me as a safeguard, and eliminating line noise via either a conditioner or power cord, also makes sense, but it would seem that both of these try to accomplish the same thing, yet some add their own "flavor" to the end result, the sound.

So, does anybody make a surge protecting, power strip with a detachable/swappable power cord?
Would such a product make sense to anybody but me?
Heck it would exponentially increase the number of possible combinations of power cords, before and after the set of plugs on the strip...  a tweaker's dream come true, or nightmare perhaps.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.  I have not experimented with power cords or power conditioning yet, and have no opinion on either ones effectiveness, I am just trying to gain a better understanding of options, and effects...
Cheers,
-Greg

[Tyson]

Most people have pretty OK power, especially if don't live in a high density metropolitan area.  So, PC's and conditioners will have a lesser effect.  I, however, am one of those people that live in the heart of a downtown area.  For me, good conditioners have a dramatic affect, while average or poor conditioners have no effect at all (or worse, a detrimental effect).  For most people, I'd say get the majority of the system sounding the way you want it via component and speaker selection, speaker wire, and interconnects.  Focus on power last, as a final refinement.  For a few people (like me), power is so bad that it really needs to be addressed up front before you can really hear how good the rest of your gear is. 

[satfrat]

For the sake for exposing myself one more time BPT makes a Power Center which is nothing more than a high end power strip with an IEC to use with any aftermarket power cord of your choice. Is it better than say a $33 Wireworld 9 outlet power strip that I use as an added outlet strip for my BPT? Couldn't tell you as I've never used the Power Center. But there are plenty who have and user opinions can be invaluable source of info. I have used multiple power cords thru my BPT and I feel I've been able to tell subtle differences in them but I'll emphisze the word subtle. With an iEC type power strip tho w/o a balanced power conditioner in the middle I would suspect the differences using varoius power cords would become more apparent. Only 1 way to find out for yourself is to try or have a lot of audio friends locally or quite possibly from audio gatherings like the NY RAVE that might loan you gear to try. (read NY RAVE + Lonewolfny42= lots and lot of gear to audition ) If you're located anywhere that's close to these audio clubs, that's your best bet for knowledge, no doubt about that.

Just saw that you're located in Southern Ca, this might be of interest for ya.

Tyson lives in the primetime location of Colorado in order to do just this.

Cheers,
Robin

[zybar]

Most people have pretty OK power, especially if don't live in a high density metropolitan area.  So, PC's and conditioners will have a lesser effect.  I, however, am one of those people that live in the heart of a downtown area.  For me, good conditioners have a dramatic affect, while average or poor conditioners have no effect at all (or worse, a detrimental effect).  For most people, I'd say get the majority of the system sounding the way you want it via component and speaker selection, speaker wire, and interconnects.  Focus on power last, as a final refinement.  For a few people (like me), power is so bad that it really needs to be addressed up front before you can really hear how good the rest of your gear is. 

I actually wonder how good people's power really is.

I thought my power would be good living just outside Boston in a "new" development, but it turns out that my incoming voltage fluctuates significantly.  I bet this isn't as uncommon as one would think, but unless you randomly measure your voltage or have a component that does for you, you will never know.

Now, what impact does it have on the sound when you voltage is down around 108-112 volts?

Well, I know that when I inserted a Furman SPR-20i voltage regulator that my system got better.  At the same volume level, it sounded louder and bigger, with more details coming through.

Anyway, I highly recommend that everybody measures the voltage on the line(s) that their system is plugged into (even if it is a dedicated line). 

Check it very carefully!! If you aren't sure what to do - get help!  I also suggest that you measure with your gear off and when everything is up and running.  You might be surprised to see your voltage drop when everything is fully powered up. 

George

[Kevin Haskins]

Just my opinion but here is where I've landed after several years of playing with audio.    

Power Cords, outlets, IECs, Power Strips etc... from an engineering standpoint should make no difference.  That is assuming they are well built and functioning correctly.    There is no scientifically valid research that I've seen to show otherwise.   By scientifically valid I mean something where real research was done by unbiased 3rd parties who used scientifically valid test conditions with peer review.   In other words, their perceived results are big voodoo and if you are looking for good advice, it is usually given by the seat of the pants.

My personal experience is that I've heard differences when swapping parts.    Of course my personal experience isn't worth a hoot because anytime you have a sited change you bring into play your own human perception.   That perception is proven to be highly influenced by our expectations.   There are plenty of valid experiments showing that you can convince people that they hear something even when there is no change to the system.    

Since I pride myself in being somewhat rational (except when it comes to football and women), I've come to the conclusion that most of the changes I've probably heard have more to do with what is between my ears rather than what enters them.    I still expend effort to build overkill power cords, use nice spec grade outlets and use high quality parts when terminating either cords or equipment.    I'd rather error on the side of overkill but I don't spend huge dollars on power cables, outlets and such.  

Power filters are another matter but their results are going to be HIGHLY variable due to different AC line conditions and the sensitivity of different equipment and/or if they already have built-in filter networks.   In other words YMMV with different power conditioners because everyone has different conditions.  

Just my $0.02

    

[funkmonkey]

I live in Los Angeles, so I am sure there are all kinds of fluctuations and variances in the voltage, along with plenty of noise on the line.  As suggested a couple of posts before, power regulation is the last piece of the puzzle.  My thinking has been to get a power conditioner first, and then go from there, before playing with power cords.  But which one, there are a heck of a lot of options in that world, and the prices are all across the board...  Can anyone recommend a solid, worst case scenario, power conditioner that won't break the bank?

I agree the only way to really find out is to try it yourself.  I will get there eventually.

Thanks for the link to the Southern CA, AC boards.  I have been there before but it has been very quiet.

I have also considered the BPT power center, but thought it was over priced for what it is, though it is a strip with a replaceable power cord.  Which comes back around to my original thought.  If you swapped in a high quality PC between the wall and a device like the BPT, would you get the benefits (if there are any) throughout your system ?

Something else I have noticed while searching for a conditioner, is that the price rises significantly as you add more outlets to the unit, while all other specs seem to stay the same.  Does it make sense to buy a simple dual outlet conditioner and plug a power strip into it (I think this is what Robin mentioned) to extend the amount of output plugs?  Would there be any adverse effects to that, most seem to have a 15amp (or 20amp) breaker no matter the number of outlets.

Thanks for the help, and ideas.

[Gaara]

Wow.  Kevin Haskins, much respect.  Don't see many people who admit that the differences they hear could be placebo.

Many conditioners prove that they lower distortion, the problem is what is audible?  I can hear/measure a difference between hooking my gear to the wall and a conditioner, problem is the difference is very small.  The noise I hear is probably not audible at even the lowest listening levels, so the fact that the conditioner rids me of this noise gives me the warm and fuzzys, but probably does nothing for audio quality.

I kinda fall into Kevin's camp, I would fail a DBX test but still used upgraded power cords, albeit the $9 Volexs.  Honestly the main reason I upgraded was because I have a rats nest in back of my rig, and wanted sheilded power cords so it would have less of an effect on my interconnects.

The problem with just getting once fancy power cord is that most don't really act like filters.  Its the weakest link idea, if you use fancy ICs from the CDP to Pre then crap from Pre to Amp you don't get the benefit.  Same goes for PCs, one nice one from wall to conditioner then using the supplied ones for the components kinda defeats the purpose.  Then there is the old argument of the wire in the wall, if you are going to upgrade the wire from the outlet to the conditioner, why not from the outlet to the circuit breaker?  IMHO getting a dedicated 20amp line for a system is a bigger improvement then any PC upgrade.

As for strips, I believe Eichmann used to make one for $50 with a removable cord that was pretty well regarded.  I know PS Audio makes the juice bars, but I think they are pricey to.  You could buy something with only 2 outlets, then use strips but there are a few problems I see.  First if you buy into components generating their own noise, then most strips with multiple outlets have separately filtered banks.  If you used a two outlet conditioner you are bound to mix digital and analog, or other nasty combos, and lose out on some of the benefit of conditioning.  You would also have to worry about the construction of the power strips affecting the sound, plus some units have the warranty voided if you plug additional power strips into them.

[Occam]

Funkmonkey,

Something else I have noticed while searching for a conditioner, is that the price rises significantly as you add more outlets to the unit, while all other specs seem to stay the same.  Does it make sense to buy a simple dual outlet conditioner and plug a power strip into it (I think this is what Robin mentioned) to extend the amount of output plugs?  Would there be any adverse effects to that, most seem to have a 15amp (or 20amp) breaker no matter the number of outlets.

Often, increased price with additional outlets is reflective of additional filters. The Audience ARx conditioners-
http://www.audience-av.com/conditioners/
Where there is an individual series inductive filter for each outlet which is required to isolate everything from everything, and the prices are somewhat linear. Other conditioners might have a single filter for all outlets, or multipler filters serving separate groups of outlets.

Sadly and counterintuitively, I've found that the cord feeding a conditioner has a strong impact on the overall results. Similarly, the cord (an connectors) leaving the conditioner impacts the component it feeds.

Until last year, I used this -

A Volex cord digesting a Felix diy conditioner, and I was quite pleased with it having aquitted itself admirably agaist some very well thought of cords, and conditioners.
But then I took it over for comparison to the best system I've ever heard, Wes Bender's. Comparing my 'wondercord' to his run of the mill, $1500 Synergistic PC taught me that conditioning does not minimize the requirements (whatever they mignt be) for a good cord, and (my) cord parts aren't a substitute for conditioning. I can't speak to designs such as LessLoss.
Ideally, each component should handle its own conditioning specificly designed to meet its specific needs.
[This is where someone will opine with great authority that any competently designed power supply meets that criteria, to which I reply HA! Almost all line powered source level products benefit from appropriate external conditioning, though my CAT SL-1 preamp is a rare exception. I'm sure there are a few others.]

Just to muddy the waters even more, I'd stongly suggest you replace your system outlets (certainly if they're residential grade receptacles)  with hubbell HBL5262 receptacle for the grand cost of $12/duplex  from stayonline.com. I like them alot and think receptacles have a substantial impact on the utlimate sound, but no doubt, others have their own favorites at various price points, as well as others who'll argue they have no impact unless they're broken.

FWIW,
Paul

[WGH]

I approach power fluctuations and noise on the line from a different perspective. Living in Tucson, AZ, lightning is a fact of life. Our summer monsoon storms go from July 4 to the end of September with a strong possibility of lightning every day. A surge suppressor with added  filtration gives me added peace of mind when storms are in the area.

My entire A/V system (15 pieces) is plugged into a Panamax 5410 with a Tripplite Isotel (plugged into the Panomax) as a powerstrip for the video equipment.  I have no idea how it affects the sound but I don't have any hums or buzzes either. The Panamax units have a separate high current outlet for amps and cascaded noise filtration circuits for the other outlets.



My Panamax also has a IEC socket so you could try out other power cords.

Panamax units show up on Audiogon quite frequently.

Wayne

[Folsom]

That Pure Power center... unless it has capacitors in it those spike feet are just extra cash they are suckering you out of... yet I am not even sure I fully believe the vibration to capacitor situation either, yet. Could capacitance be built on the case which is grounded, who the hell cares it is earth grounded not signal.

I personally highly suggest having good outlets like Occam mentioned. (I actually have four of those in my home made power conditioner)  Even if you do not hear the difference they are less of a fire hazard. In some cases if you are exercising the 15a available at an AC outlet the cheap ones do not have enough grip to do this so you create stress on any electrical equipment that have demand when there is no way to increase voltage or current. Over time if the grip is poor the AC outlet will produce carbon build up and be even less capable of providing adequate current, creating even more stress on your components, leading to assortments of problems.

You know if you want to look into it and feel you can do it without killing yourself you could make your own AC terminal/conditioner. I did that with a bunch of caps, those outlets, some CMC's, some wire, parts, and a breaker switch. Does it make a difference? Oh hell yeah... Everything digital that gets plugged into it is night and day.

However I would like to state a few reason that are for my AC conditioning doing a lot. First the power in my house I rent in sucks. Second you need to account circuit design of anything you plug into it. There is a lot of equipment out there that has next to no filtration and poor capacitance and implementation that has it stuck that way. It is not that anyone was stupid making it, they just had cost concerns (or lack of AC power considerations). When you switch to very well made stuff it all changes and so much filtration is happening inside, and they have great capacitor banks for power (which also filter) it makes less of a difference.

Power cords, am I a believer? Yes and no. I use ones I made, high quality stuff, not expensive. (no cryo or anything) I do recognize that certain equipment in order to function right does need certain sizes of cords, and certain aspects like capacitance and resistance (and again more of an affect on poor equipment) will matter as the component itself could fluctuate in consumption and driving-ability (like if a speaker when from 8ohm to 2ohm on an 8ohm stable amplifier for instance). However in order to meet those demands it does not seem difficult.

Here is what I really believe and you make your own conclusion.

The majority of the time people are looking for a power cord, or any cord for that matter, that will color, taint, do subjectively good things that are objectively bad, to fit their system. They are trying to fix a problem with another problem.

[satfrat]

The majority of the time people are looking for a power cord, or any cord for that matter, that will color, taint, do subjectively good things that are objectively bad, to fit their system. They are trying to fix a problem with another problem.

I would believe the majority of those people would highly disagree with that guess of yours. I know I do.

Cheers,
Robin

[Folsom]

They are not aware that is what they want. They are just consumers that purchase different things to try, no reasoning behind it, maybe a Stereophile review...

I do believe some cables are extremely important for quality, at least with digital and the mayhem behind it.

[satfrat]

They are not aware that is what they want. They are just consumers that purchase different things to try, no reasoning behind it, maybe a Stereophile review...

I do believe some cables are extremely important for quality, at least with digital and the mayhem behind it.

That could very well be true but I don't believe anyone goes out and buys a power cord to fix a problem anymore than I think a power cord will color or taint a system. I disagree with everything you said in that blanket statement, I'll be curious to see if there are any other comments on it. But those comments above are much more plusible,,, especially the "no reason behind it". Guilty as charged at one time or another.

Cheers,
Robin

[Folsom]

Well power cords are probably the least offensive of cables to buy looking to subjectively change something in a bad objectively manner (while not knowing that is what you are looking for). An example would be something that really chokes sound so it creates "more imagining". That or something that over smooths a signal, like some that have capacitors in them etc, to make up for DAC and small components like resistors and capacitors that sound harsh in the system.

Then again I think about all the BIZARRE power cables I have seen that have like air-cores with certain crossing patterns, or ones with two million braids in different ways with like twenty wires inside. I mean there is a lot of weird stuff out there. I mostly think Stereophile type stuff, they subjective consumer whore world, not so much this board.

[Dan_ed]

Kevin Haskins, are we trying a bit of reverse psychology?  A cable maker and seller of power conditioners who claims there is really no difference? Nice approach and sure to get more postings. See, ya' got me! 

My experience with audio is that conditioners, as filters, are just that. More components getting in the way. Certainly there are times when the supplied power is so bad that a filter will make things sound better/different, but more often than not they degrade what is there. If AC is a problem I would rather look to regeneration or total generation to eliminate all grid artifacts. Yes, it is way more costly but it is the way to do it right.

Power cords, interconnects, speaker wire, hook up wire. No doubt there is a lot of crap out there. There are also some very effective wire systems as well. I say systems, cables if you prefer, because there is capacitance, inductance, resistance, etc., and the effect of using any of them vary with the frequencies applied, and the electrical characteristics of the components they are connected with. Just like every other component in system.

Yes I do choose to pay more for power cords, interconnects, hook up wire, etc, that do improve the musical reproduction of my system based on evaluations of any such wire in my system. I've sent many, many back. I suppose that fact alone disqualifies me from providing any meaningful input. 

[Folsom]

Um but you are not trying to keep the signals other than 60hz in-tact in the AC power. Filtering makes since because it has no affect on removing the 60hz which you do not even need per-say, you only need the right voltage and current, and besides that it gets converted to DC. There is no "integrity" to keep in-tact with AC unless you are loosing current or voltage to a point where it becomes a concern. The only thing you want to keep is the regular values and ability for dynamic changes on tap. It is not the same philosophy as interconnects in that respect . Once again this all has a LOT to do with your components of your stereo anyways.

I drew a comparison based on the overall outcome of sound, not on the actually similarities; I am not swapping out IC's for PC's to see how it sounds.

I believe DIY Cable sells high quality but not over the top stuff. They sell things that make good compression, have the agility to be used in different ways, and have proven good values for what conductors should be. They do not appear to be selling any magic items, which are more in question than anything else because magic has a much bigger price tag.

[funkmonkey]

Thank you all for your honesty, and candor.  It is truly appreciated.
I am open to a DIY conditioner.  Actually, this might be somewhat desirable, because it would allow me to give it a form factor that would suit my needs better.  I could (but would rather not) have something designed to fit in a rack.  I've got a space thats about 6"x6"x24" that I would like to use for a power center, or a few inches of rack if need be.  Though I am no electrical engineer, I managed to make a Jacob's ladder out of an old neon transformer... (very easy to do)  but, I guess I would be trying to eliminate an arc rather than create one, huh?     I'm not concerned about hurting myself, but I would hate to damage any of my equipment...     If I can understand it, I can build it.  But if there is something commercially available, and not too expensive...  I will sleep better, if you know what I mean.

I will get a Hubbell duplex for the wall, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Regeneration? that sounds intriguing, got any links?

Thanks again, so far you all have been very helpful.
Cheers,
Greg

[Dan_ed]

Um but you are not trying to keep the signals other than 60hz in-tact in the AC power. Filtering makes since because it has no affect on removing the 60hz which you do not even need per-say, you only need the right voltage and current, and besides that it gets converted to DC. There is no "integrity" to keep in-tact with AC unless you are loosing current or voltage to a point where it becomes a concern. The only thing you want to keep is the regular values and ability for dynamic changes on tap. It is not the same philosophy as interconnects in that respect . Once again this all has a LOT to do with your components of your stereo anyways.

That's right! I forgot. There is no such thing as noisy DC.   

[satfrat]

Thank you all for your honesty, and candor.  It is truly appreciated.
I am open to a DIY conditioner.  Actually, this might be somewhat desirable, because it would allow me to give it a form factor that would suit my needs better.  I could (but would rather not) have something designed to fit in a rack.  I've got a space thats about 6"x6"x24" that I would like to use for a power center, or a few inches of rack if need be.  Though I am no electrical engineer, I managed to make a Jacob's ladder out of an old neon transformer... (very easy to do)  but, I guess I would be trying to eliminate an arc rather than create one, huh?     I'm not concerned about hurting myself, but I would hate to damage any of my equipment...     If I can understand it, I can build it.  But if there is something commercially available, and not too expensive...  I will sleep better, if you know what I mean.

I will get a Hubbell duplex for the wall, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Regeneration? that sounds intriguing, got any links?

Thanks again, so far you all have been very helpful.
Cheers,
Greg

Maybe your best bet would be to try the tweaks that Occam has suggested to start along with a possible conditioner that a power strip couldbe plugged into. This is what I use and it's considered an excellent by the audio community as they will sell thet same conditioner for over twice the money here. This would give you 9 outlets for all your gear. I own a 10 outlet 2400watt BPT balanced power conditioner for my whole audio/video system and I use this same power strip for even more outlets for my system. I got lots of gear. But for something small a conditioner running from the wall and this strip plugged into that might give you what you want if the conditioner is big enough to handle  the total power requirements of all your gear. There's also great wisdom in Occam's suggestion that every piece of gear should have it's own individual conditioner, specifically built to handle the power draw of that particular unit and easily built directly into it's own power cord. This idea was especially popular a while back when we had a group buy on DIY parts to those with the skill to build their own personal conditioner. Many built them directly into a power cord with the specific strength for it's intended component. Had I been 1 of those skilled individuals, I might have sold my BPT by now.

Good luck with your venture.

Cheers,
Robin

[Folsom]

Um but you are not trying to keep the signals other than 60hz in-tact in the AC power. Filtering makes since because it has no affect on removing the 60hz which you do not even need per-say, you only need the right voltage and current, and besides that it gets converted to DC. There is no "integrity" to keep in-tact with AC unless you are loosing current or voltage to a point where it becomes a concern. The only thing you want to keep is the regular values and ability for dynamic changes on tap. It is not the same philosophy as interconnects in that respect . Once again this all has a LOT to do with your components of your stereo anyways.

That's right! I forgot. There is no such thing as noisy DC.   

I am not trying to insult you but... you do not know how transformers and rectifiers work to get DC from AC do you, or how things are amplified do you? There is a direct relationship yes, and noise on DC matters yes, but there is undesirable noise and signal (which you want). AC mains has no signal per say.