Yes, you DO need power conditioning.

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werd

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #20 on: 3 May 2012, 06:17 pm »
For me - and I really want to emphasize ME as we all have hearing likes and dislikes quite different from one another - I've yet to hear an active 'conditioner' that improves fidelity.

Except on digital sources where I use an isolation transformer, where much of the benefit may be it as a waste gate for digital pollutants leaching back into the rest of the system, every attempt at active conditioning on amps, preamps, turntables, SS or tube - has resulted in more etch and annoying grain than less.

Having rented for a while, I look forward to buying soon and installing a dedicated line to my system.  That along with a good, upgraded outlet (the $38 Porter Ports sound a teensy bit more natural than the $9.99 hospital grade ones at Lowes) and isotranny on the digital side should make wonderful music soon.

The only way I can interface my system with a 240v feed is with a transformer. I love the 240 feed into my system and my Torus allows me to do that.

I agree on the etch and grain results but I don't blame it on the Torus. I found I had to re cable my system. IMO I think the cabling,in particular the mains were just powering up treble frequencies to much. I went back to just copper no silver or cryo treated into the amp. There are tons of conditioners that end up being nothing more than expensive outlet bars IMO.

kujokku

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Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #21 on: 3 May 2012, 06:43 pm »
Hey Rollo, What is the manufacturer of your power correction device? How much did cost? Was it hard to install?  How much improvement did you hear? I was thinking of getting a tripp lite isolation transformer until I read your post. Anyone else using a power correction device and with what results?  Thanks Neil

milford3

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #22 on: 3 May 2012, 07:17 pm »
This APC power conditioner is what I have.  IMOP no need to spend a ton of money. 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842101432

Waker

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #23 on: 4 May 2012, 09:01 am »
Lots of good reports here--individual results do vary.  A recurring idea is that good gear should be able to filter out noise and stabilize voltage with multiple, regulated power supplies--I have also read advice in at least one owner's manual (Wadia) stating these capabilities and to therefore plug directly into the wall.  When I discussed this with my high-end dealer, he said makers generally suggest this because most in-line products, in respect to high-performance audio, are current limiting in their attempts/designs to suppress noise or interrupt surges.  They work best with computers and other expensive, but lower wattage devices we want to protect.           

OzarkTom

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #24 on: 4 May 2012, 12:38 pm »
Lots of good reports here--individual results do vary.  A recurring idea is that good gear should be able to filter out noise and stabilize voltage with multiple, regulated power supplies--I have also read advice in at least one owner's manual (Wadia) stating these capabilities and to therefore plug directly into the wall.  When I discussed this with my high-end dealer, he said makers generally suggest this because most in-line products, in respect to high-performance audio, are current limiting in their attempts/designs to suppress noise or interrupt surges.  They work best with computers and other expensive, but lower wattage devices we want to protect.           

Probably the best advice is to contact the company of the products that you own. They will know if a conditioner is needed. I know several companies that insists a direct wall circuit sounds the best with the components that they make. They do not like what the conditioners do to the sound.

TRADERXFAN

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Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #25 on: 4 May 2012, 02:19 pm »
Seems to me a manufacturer would have no idea what the quality of noise and hash would be for any one particular users setup.

A conditioner is to correct electrical problems and so if there are no problems no conditioner should be warranted, and if there are problems, then you have to determine what will solve it.  Some components are able to correct these problems to some degree internally, or not at all. Some are more susceptible or less, as well.

rollo

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Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #26 on: 4 May 2012, 02:39 pm »
Hey Rollo, What is the manufacturer of your power correction device? How much did cost? Was it hard to install?  How much improvement did you hear? I was thinking of getting a tripp lite isolation transformer until I read your post. Anyone else using a power correction device and with what results?  Thanks Neil

   The PIAudio Uberbuss. Just no ill affect. Using two. One for digital and one for Amps and Preamp.
   Previously used isolation trannies and conditioners: Tice, Richard Grey, PS Audio, Monster, Alan Maher, Mapleshade, Audience and Felix.
   
charles

OzarkTom

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #27 on: 6 May 2012, 04:42 pm »
It sounds like Charles would be a very good source on power conditioners since he has tried so many.

Has anyone tried Less Loss filters? Here is the designer speaking.

"Louis Motek, original designer of the LessLoss Dynamic Filtering Power Cable, says: “Every audiophile knows that at certain times, late at night, at around 3 am, something happens to the electrical supply in the city in which they live. The sound becomes magnificent. There is no distortion. Everything clicks into place. It is some sort of audio nirvana. You can experience this perhaps 2 or 3 times a year, at best. Audiophiles spend vast quantities of time remembering this experience and even more time attempting (and failing) to recreate it. The experience is haunting and elusive. It only happens late at night and very rarely. This is what I am selling.
I am selling this 3 am sound for your enjoyment all day long, every day.”

TONEPUB

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #28 on: 6 May 2012, 04:47 pm »
For me - and I really want to emphasize ME as we all have hearing likes and dislikes quite different from one another - I've yet to hear an active 'conditioner' that improves fidelity.

Except on digital sources where I use an isolation transformer, where much of the benefit may be it as a waste gate for digital pollutants leaching back into the rest of the system, every attempt at active conditioning on amps, preamps, turntables, SS or tube - has resulted in more etch and annoying grain than less.

Having rented for a while, I look forward to buying soon and installing a dedicated line to my system.  That along with a good, upgraded outlet (the $38 Porter Ports sound a teensy bit more natural than the $9.99 hospital grade ones at Lowes) and isotranny on the digital side should make wonderful music soon.

You really need to make that visit we've been discussing...

I'll give you a very convincing demo on the merit of high quality power conditioning.  Then we can go drink beer!

Freo-1

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #29 on: 6 May 2012, 04:54 pm »
I found this in the owners mannual from my Pass Labs XA 30.5:
 
" All the usual performance metrics - power, distortion, noise, input impedance, damping factor and bandwidth have all been improved in this latest generation. The power supplies are larger, with fast rectifiers gating to larger capacitor banks. The increases in AC line noise worldwide have been addressed with heavier EMI filtering and dramatically quieter power transformers. In addition, through improved biasing regulation, the circuits give much more consistent performance under varying AC line voltages and over a variety of ambient temperatures."
 
Note the increase in AC line noise statement.  Makes a case for filtering somewhere along the audio chain.

OzarkTom

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #30 on: 6 May 2012, 05:16 pm »
The increases in AC line noise worldwide have been addressed with heavier EMI filtering and dramatically quieter power transformers. In addition, through improved biasing regulation, the circuits give much more consistent performance under varying AC line voltages and over a variety of ambient temperatures."
 


This sounds like the company has addressed it already in the build of their amp. If the regulation has been addressed in the manufacture of the component itself, no further filtering should ever be needed.

cheap-Jack

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Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #31 on: 6 May 2012, 05:18 pm »
Hi.
(1) Seems to me a manufacturer would have no idea what the quality of noise and hash would be for any one particular users setup.

(2) A conditioner is to correct electrical problems and so if there are no problems no conditioner should be warranted, and if there are problems, then you have to determine what will solve it. 

(1) Correct. Unless powerline noise measurement is carried out there.

(2) For powerline RFI/EMI problems which virtually exist EVERYwhere with digital gear plugged in, e.g. computers, TVs, cellphones, DVD players, etc etc, the safest bet is to install powerline filters or conditioners.

A scientific way of measuring the "quality" & quantity of EMI/RFI is to use a powerline noise analyser.

FYI, I own a wideband powerline & EMI noises anaylser & carry out powerlines noise measurement at different locations. I can assure you EMI/RFI noise is EVERYwhere as long as any digital gear is plugged in & switched on. This includes our CD & DVD players.

Powerline filters/conditioners are a MUST to install.

But here we may be opening a huge can of worms. Which filters/conditioners should we choose without wracking our wallets & do NOT ruin the music?????

c-J

Freo-1

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #32 on: 6 May 2012, 05:19 pm »
This sounds like the company has addressed it already in the build of their amp. If the regulation has been addressed in the manufacture of the component itself, no further filtering should ever be needed.

Tom, that was my thought on this as well. 

cheap-Jack

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Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #33 on: 6 May 2012, 05:31 pm »
Hi.

Tom, that was my thought on this as well.

Sorry, I don't think so.

Even though some hi-end gear might have such thing installed, do you think it is effective enough? EMI/RFI can come into yr equipment thru powerline as well as AIRborne.

c-J

Freo-1

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #34 on: 6 May 2012, 05:36 pm »
Hi.
Sorry, I don't think so.

Even though some hi-end gear might have such thing installed, do you think it is effective enough? EMI/RFI can come into yr equipment thru powerline as well as AIRborne.

c-J

 
Actually, I do think if the equipment is designed correctly, then it should be sufficient.
 
No offense, but Nelson Pass has more credibility on this than anyone of us here posting.  A spectrum analyzer would validate this. 

jtwrace

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Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #35 on: 6 May 2012, 06:04 pm »
Actually, I do think if the equipment is designed correctly, then it should be sufficient.
I think it is always sufficient but certainly it could sound better with power conditioner(s).  I also think it would be foolish for any manufacturer to say "Yes, a power conditioner is required for our equipment".  That wouldn't look very good when the competing comany says they don't require it. 

The best part is that it's up to YOU (us) to decide.

roscoeiii

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #36 on: 6 May 2012, 06:09 pm »
I will just chime in with another AUDITION recommendation. It seems that what power conditioner works best is very contingent on both the equipment in your system and the quality of the power coming out of your outlets.

Fortunately there are a number of great options that can be tried: Isolation Transformers (one option I have yet to try), power regenerators, voltage regulators (some APC units do this), Magic and UberBusses, Shunyata, Running Springs, Audience, etc.

Just because some conditioners don't work, or negatively impact some aspects of the music in your system does not mean all will (which of course is also a possibility).

For me it was the Running Springs Haley that really transformed my system with everything plugged into it (including amps). I really liked the MajicBuss too, but not having some sort of surge protection was a deal killer for me. Maybe at some point a Running Springs/Buss combo is in order.

OzarkTom

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #37 on: 6 May 2012, 06:12 pm »


But here we may be opening a huge can of worms. Which filters/conditioners should we choose without wracking our wallets & do NOT ruin the music?????

c-J

Yep, a big can of worms since everyone I have tried negatively affects the detail, soundstage, and dynamics.
 
Many of these items play into psycho-acoustics. If you think it will work, it probably will.

Freo-1

Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #38 on: 6 May 2012, 06:16 pm »
I think it is always sufficient but certainly it could sound better with power conditioner(s).  I also think it would be foolish for any manufacturer to say "Yes, a power conditioner is required for our equipment".  That wouldn't look very good when the competing comany says they don't require it. 

The best part is that it's up to YOU (us) to decide.

 
Certainly with source equipment, it should not hurt, and could improve the performance.  For power amps, it’s more of a mixed bag.  Many of them could actually hamper or impede performance, as they can limit current draw.  Some manufactures actually discourage usage just for that reason.  I know some tube amp guys use a variac and set it to ensure the gear is optimal voltage wise.
 
Agree that AC line power has more hash/trash than ever.  I also think its fair to state that some manufactures do not pay as close attention to line filtering as others do. 

jtwrace

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Re: Yes, you DO need power conditioning.
« Reply #39 on: 6 May 2012, 06:22 pm »

 
Certainly with source equipment, it should not hurt, and could improve the performance.  For power amps, it’s more of a mixed bag.  Many of them could actually hamper or impede performance, as they can limit current draw.  Some manufactures actually discourage usage just for that reason.  I know some tube amp guys use a variac and set it to ensure the gear is optimal voltage wise.
 
Agree that AC line power has more hash/trash than ever.  I also think its fair to state that some manufactures do not pay as close attention to line filtering as others do.
Yes, I agree 100%. 

I used to use a certain conditioner that I thought was great sonically but it sure did limit dynamics.  As many as there are that do limit current there are many consumer and many pro units that do not.