Mr.Tanner...please help?.....

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lyle1

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Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« on: 13 Dec 2008, 09:46 pm »
I joined this forum a short time ago and after watching and listening to various comments I believe I would like to get back into the "Bryston Family."  About 10 years ago I owned a 9Bst and for some reason (dealer recommendation) sold it.  Over the past few months I have purchased  a new SACD-CD player(Mcintosh MCD-500) and C-45 McIntosh Pre-amp, and a pair of McIntosh 501 monoblocks(500wpc.)  To finish the package, I purchased a new set of PMC EB1is.  Of course it is a lovely system, but being the proud Canadian I am, I would like to get back with Bryston.  Before purchasing all the McIntoch products I asked my dealer his recommendations in regards to Bryston Vs. McIntosh and of course you can see the results.  I realize your opinion with be towards Bryston, but I would appreciate your opinion.  It seems that the "so called, audiophiles" would lead you to believe that neither Bryston or Mcintosh are up to their standards.

My Bryston picks would be a pair of 28Bsst2s', Bp-26, and a BCD-1.  I am not positive about the PMCs' either and would value your opinion inspeaker regards as well.  I like female vocalists(norah Jones,Diana Krall, Holy Cole) along with acoustic Jazz and some rock(Dire Straits, Eric Clapton etc)

Some people would think I am crazy for even thinking about this...McIntosh to Bryston...but something is telling me to make the switch.  Any opinions from yourself, Mr.Tanner, and others would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Lyle1

alexone

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #1 on: 13 Dec 2008, 10:02 pm »

you are not crazy, Lyle. if you feel to switch then just go for it! :wink:


al.

b5pt9

Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #2 on: 13 Dec 2008, 10:27 pm »
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« Last Edit: 14 Dec 2008, 07:55 pm by b5pt9 »

mclsound

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #3 on: 13 Dec 2008, 11:28 pm »
hi Lyle,i had a C-46 and didnt much care for it(it was alright???????).But with all that i have tried,PMC and Bryston do have synergy,thats for sure.I had the IB1's and 14bsst and this did sound detailed to the max!!  28,s might be a bit much for the EB1's,now if you had the MB2's i would say definately the 28's or if you are thinking the future upgrade??
john

James Tanner

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #4 on: 13 Dec 2008, 11:29 pm »
I joined this forum a short time ago and after watching and listening to various comments I believe I would like to get back into the "Bryston Family."  About 10 years ago I owned a 9Bst and for some reason (dealer recommendation) sold it.  Over the past few months I have purchased  a new SACD-CD player(Mcintosh MCD-500) and C-45 McIntosh Pre-amp, and a pair of McIntosh 501 monoblocks(500wpc.)  To finish the package, I purchased a new set of PMC EB1is.  Of course it is a lovely system, but being the proud Canadian I am, I would like to get back with Bryston.  Before purchasing all the McIntoch products I asked my dealer his recommendations in regards to Bryston Vs. McIntosh and of course you can see the results.  I realize your opinion with be towards Bryston, but I would appreciate your opinion.  It seems that the "so called, audiophiles" would lead you to believe that neither Bryston or Mcintosh are up to their standards.

My Bryston picks would be a pair of 28Bsst2s', Bp-26, and a BCD-1.  I am not positive about the PMCs' either and would value your opinion inspeaker regards as well.  I like female vocalists(norah Jones,Diana Krall, Holy Cole) along with acoustic Jazz and some rock(Dire Straits, Eric Clapton etc)

Some people would think I am crazy for even thinking about this...McIntosh to Bryston...but something is telling me to make the switch.  Any opinions from yourself, Mr.Tanner, and others would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Lyle1

Hi Lyle,

Boy you really put me on the hot seat with this one.

I guess my first question would be what are you not happy with in the sound of your system now? Description of your room-size, furnishings etc? Placement of speakers now?

I have not heard the EB1's with the McIntosh so I am obviously not the one to judge that combo but I have heard all the PMC's with Bryston gear of course and there certainly is a performance synergy between PMC and Bryston.

I really feel unless your independently wealthy dumping the McIntosh and buying the Bryston may be a little costly - unless the same dealer that sold you the McIntosh carries Bryston as well. Maybe we can work with what you have and raise it's performance level?

james

vegasdave

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #5 on: 13 Dec 2008, 11:58 pm »
In my opinion, McIntosh is very good, but overrated...it colors the sound, where Bryston is neutral and does not color the sound. Some audiophiles call Bryston bright and dry...and prefer a "warmer" sound. Hogwash. That means they prefer a colored sound. Bryston is true to the source, but has the uncanny nature to make even garbage recordings listenable.

Consider this, I went from the mega expensive FM Acoustics stuff to Bryston...do feel I'm missing anything? Not at all.

Sasha

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #6 on: 14 Dec 2008, 12:06 am »
On PMC, and only higher models including EB1i, I did not come across any speakers I prefer over PMC, with exception (yet to be sorted out), ATC SCM100 (active or passive) or Barefoot MM27.
On Bryston, have not heard 28B SST, but did compare 7B SST to quite a few amps from other manufacturers, models being approximately in their respective lineups where 7B SST is, whenever possible.
Those included Pass Labs, McCormack, Simaudio, Krell, Mcintosh. Speakers were PMC IB2.
All wonderful gear. But I continue to own 7B SST, for really a single reason, none of them do to the midrange what 7B SST does (or to be more precise does not do).
Midrange is significantly more open with 7B SST (for the lack of a better word), quite startling difference, this openness wakes up the life in voices and acoustic instruments. Very, very natural and effortless sound.
Bryston is usually mentioned when bass performance is discussed, or difficult loads that require lots of current, but I do not find it to be the reason to own Bryston over something else or v.v.
It is the midrange that sold me.
Since you already own Mcintosh, maye you ought to audition Bryston before switch, it should not be too difficult.
Otherwise, I would say go with Bryston, 7B SST being the minimum (not that 4B is bad, but 7B is special, and you are talking 28B anyway). And do not listen to James, he is too modest.  :wink: IMHO 7B and I assume 28B is better, if you share my preferences.
On BP-26, I have mixed feelings. It is not as transparent as I would like, but the problem is that there is nothing more transparent than BP26. Reason for such comments is that I have tried going direct to amps from appropriate sources (and they indeed have to be appropriate, must have quite capable analog section and good volume control), I liked results very much, but still have BP26 due to its versatility.
If I ever come across pre-amp that sounds like bare wire, I will get it.
The good thing is that with 7B SST transparency you get plenty of it, so the bare wire thing I am craving is not such a big deal.
On BCD-1, simply put, do not think, buy. It outperforms its price tag more than anything else, ever. If you want something arguably better (I say arguably because it is really top performer), you are looking at ballpark 8K or more. The only objection I have is the drawer (not performance wise but the way it operates, kind of scary  :D), but it is easily forgotten when you hear the sound.




lyle1

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #7 on: 14 Dec 2008, 06:29 am »
Hello James, Thank you for getting back to me so quickly.  Sorry to put you on the hotseat.  My room Dimensions are difficult to describe as I have a walkway that parallels my listening room but I will give it a try.  13' Deep from my sofa to the front wall and 15' including the walkway.  Immediately behind my sofa is an opening view to the kitchen approximately 6' wide and 7'tall.

As what I am disappointed is the clarity to the music being somewhat veiled.  It just seems that I am not getting the detail that I should.  I am also finding the low base overpowering and slow.  I have about 75hrs on these speakers now.  I love low, full,quick Base and these speakers are supposed to deliver but find them almost overpowering and it actually makes my ears ring.  I only listen at levels below 5 watts according to the McIntosh front Meters.

I am lost as to what to do. I like the "simple look" of the Bryston gear without all the bright lights on the front like the Mac equipment.  I don't know if I should start over with new speakers....802d, Revel Salon 2,
Thiel 3.6, etc and all new Bryston gear or just one or the other......once again your opinion would be appreciated.

Thank you.
Lyle

James Tanner

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #8 on: 14 Dec 2008, 02:32 pm »
Hello James, Thank you for getting back to me so quickly.  Sorry to put you on the hotseat.  My room Dimensions are difficult to describe as I have a walkway that parallels my listening room but I will give it a try.  13' Deep from my sofa to the front wall and 15' including the walkway.  Immediately behind my sofa is an opening view to the kitchen approximately 6' wide and 7'tall.

As what I am disappointed is the clarity to the music being somewhat veiled.  It just seems that I am not getting the detail that I should.  I am also finding the low base overpowering and slow.  I have about 75hrs on these speakers now.  I love low, full,quick Base and these speakers are supposed to deliver but find them almost overpowering and it actually makes my ears ring.  I only listen at levels below 5 watts according to the McIntosh front Meters.

I am lost as to what to do. I like the "simple look" of the Bryston gear without all the bright lights on the front like the Mac equipment.  I don't know if I should start over with new speakers....802d, Revel Salon 2,
Thiel 3.6, etc and all new Bryston gear or just one or the other......once again your opinion would be appreciated.

Thank you.
Lyle

Hi Lyle,

I feel for you - I've been there - nothing is more frustrating than knowing it just ain't working and trying to rationalize that it just needs more time and understanding.

Anyway it sounds to me, even though I would love you to use Bryston that the speaker is the major culprit here- or rather the speaker placement. Speaker placement is huge compared to one quality amplifier vs another. On a scale of '1 to 10' getting the speaker correct is a "9".  I know PMC products well enough to know that the room speaker interface is something you definitely have to experiment with. Can you describe exactly where the speakers are in the room relative to your listening position - wall boundaries ,distance from them etc.

Also remember that given the dispersion characteristics of the specific speaker, the low frequency cut off point etc. there are situations and conditions where speaker "A" will just not work and speaker "B" will work like a champ. Whenever I would do shows with PMC speakers in the past I would always audition the smallest speaker to the largest speaker in the specific demo room we were using at the show and there would generally be one model where it would all just come together and that was the star of the show for that setup.

james

predrag

Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #9 on: 14 Dec 2008, 02:51 pm »
As what I am disappointed is the clarity to the music being somewhat veiled.  It just seems that I am not getting the detail that I should.  I am also finding the low base overpowering and slow.  I have about 75hrs on these speakers now.  I love low, full,quick Base and these speakers are supposed to deliver but find them almost overpowering and it actually makes my ears ring.  I only listen at levels below 5 watts according to the McIntosh front Meters.


Thank you.
Lyle

Helo Lyle!

I know very well your situation.
Neither did I get the satisfacory results from the first attempt with PMC´s.
Took me about 6 weeks to put things together!
Speaker placement is sometimes a tricky game with strange results!
I had to sacrifice the position of furniture in my listening room as I had to place speakers in the middle of the room and my listening position is about 4 ft from the rear wall. Any other positioning made boomy bass.
Take your time during weekends and try as many positions as possible. 
Be patient and good results will show up!
 

Viajero5000

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #10 on: 14 Dec 2008, 05:11 pm »
Lyle,

Based on your description of the issue, the following steps need to be taken:

1. speakers need to be set up/positioned properly
2. a home audition of bryston downstream equipment needs to be arranged

W.r.t point 1, there is no quick fix. PMC speakers are very sensitive to positioning, and it often takes not days, but weeks of careful tweaking to achieve optimal set up. The efforts are well worth it though; a correctly set up pair of EB1s will sound clear, dynamic and tonally accurate, with precise imaging and quick, clean bass extension that does not demonstrate the overhang you're experiencing. Some tips are:
     
     -try a wide range of combinations of distance from the rear and side walls; assuming your room is symmetrical, please use a measuring tape to ensure that each speaker is the mirror image of the other w.r.t distance from listening position and walls.
     -for each combination above, experiment with the listening position depth and height
     -for each combination above, toe the speakers in for a more focused stereo image: try a range of toe ins from moderate to substantial
     -once you have identified the optimal position, biwire the speakers

W.r.t point 2, the question one needs to ask is not whether product X is better than product Y, but rather which product is suitable given the system rest of the system. One thing I have learnt in this hobby is that randomly stinging together expensive, well reviewed components rarely results in anything more than disappointment. Good component synergy forms the core of every good audio system.

I have tried a few different amps with PMCs, some quite expensive, others cheaper, all highly regarded. Of all these, the bigger Bryston (7/14/28) amps provide the clearest, most even and natural sound with PMC speakers. You will immediately observe that the veil you are experiencing will be replaced by clear, natural and even sound. But don't take my word for it, arrange for a detailed home demo. Please ensure that you use the bryston pre and cdp when you audition the amps, as each component plays an important role in the final result.

Good luck.

lyle1

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #11 on: 14 Dec 2008, 05:22 pm »
Good Morning James,  I just made some measurements as you requested.  My speakers are about 10.5' from my ear in an equal triangle arrangement.  The speakers are towed in being 9.5" away from the back wall on the inner corner and 13" away from the outer corner.  The  way my room is set the right speaker is only 10" from the side wall and the left is several feet away from the left wall because of the walkway.

I want to thank you again for interest in helping me.  I can see you have a great deal of professionalism as to not take the easy route and "blame" the McIntosh gear for the problem.  As a business owner I can appreciate the fact that my staff not "beating" up the competition in order to make the sale

In between my speakers in a cabinet that was made for me to house all the electronics and a flat screen T.V.  I hope this will help.  Keep in mind keeping a "happy" wife withnot putting the speakers in the middle of the room is a consideration.

Thank you,
Lyle  

James Tanner

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #12 on: 14 Dec 2008, 05:46 pm »
Good Morning James,  I just made some measurements as you requested.  My speakers are about 10.5' from my ear in an equal triangle arrangement.  The speakers are towed in being 9.5" away from the back wall on the inner corner and 13" away from the outer corner.  The  way my room is set the right speaker is only 10" from the side wall and the left is several feet away from the left wall because of the walkway.

I want to thank you again for interest in helping me.  I can see you have a great deal of professionalism as to not take the easy route and "blame" the McIntosh gear for the problem.  As a business owner I can appreciate the fact that my staff not "beating" up the competition in order to make the sale

In between my speakers in a cabinet that was made for me to house all the electronics and a flat screen T.V.  I hope this will help.  Keep in mind keeping a "happy" wife withnot putting the speakers in the middle of the room is a consideration.

Thank you,
Lyle  


Hi Lyle,

It definitely looks like the speakers are too close to the back wall and the boom is the wall reinforcing a specific frequency. Your need at least 2 feet and preferably 3 feet of clear space around the speaker. Move them out in increments of 6 inches. The triangle works great and try to have the speakers point at you so their acoustical axis crosses about a foot behind your head.

As for your comment on 'not beating up the competition' I do not deserve any praise there as I am simply being honest about how things work acoustically.  I figure the more systems out there that sound great the more our industry has a chance of convincing the ipod generation that this is a hobby worth pursuing?

james


P.S. -good like with the divorce :lol:


vegasdave

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #13 on: 14 Dec 2008, 09:20 pm »
In my opinion, McIntosh is very good, but overrated...it colors the sound, where Bryston is neutral and does not color the sound. Some audiophiles call Bryston bright and dry...and prefer a "warmer" sound. Hogwash. That means they prefer a colored sound. Bryston is true to the source, but has the uncanny nature to make even garbage recordings listenable.

Consider this, I went from the mega expensive FM Acoustics stuff to Bryston...do feel I'm missing anything? Not at all.

Was I too hard on McIntosh? ?

rahman

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #14 on: 14 Dec 2008, 09:45 pm »
Hi Lyle

One thing I noticed was that you've got around 75 hrs up on your EB1's so far.

Although pmc state that a 20hr run-in is needed, my own experience (albeit with FB1's) is that it takes ALOT more than that for the speakers to really come 'on song'. Initially the tweeter sounded bright, metallic and shrill, and the bass tended to boom.  After what seemed like an endless amount of placement and toe-in changes and just general everyday use, they finally delivered.

So perhaps give it some more time before making wholesale changes...although i suspect moving to bryston aint' likely to be a bad one if you do. :wink:

Cheers
Adrian
ps: there are a few IB1 and 2 owners on here, so maybe they could chime in with run-in times for that particular woofer.

lyle1

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #15 on: 15 Dec 2008, 11:21 pm »
Thank you James and all that have responded to my "issues."  I have spoken with my dealer today and he tells me I need to change both my speaker cables and interconnects.  My previous Monitor Audio G60s' were not a "full" range speaker like my new PMCs' and new upgraded speaker cables will make a huge difference along with interconnects.  It is not that my existing cables were cheap, they just won't provide the range and detail that is required.  He assures me that this will make a "huge" difference and he will not stop until I am completely satisfied. My current speaker cables are tri-wired with a set the dealer made himself.  With the Monoblocs being close to the speakers I only need 4' tri-wired lengths.  I trust my dealer and hopefully the cables will be here before Christmas.....I can't help but think that this won't solve my problem.....any thoughts?

lyle   

mclsound

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #16 on: 15 Dec 2008, 11:30 pm »
this will not solve your problems!I tried several different cables and found that the pre/and amps make all the difference with the IB1.The most difference was power,i put a 14bsst(900 watts/ch at 4ohms) to clip,the backed it down and found the performance superb.I do not like a metal/metallic sound what so ever.
john

Lancelot

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #17 on: 15 Dec 2008, 11:45 pm »
You bought very expensive equipment from a dealer so they should be able to help you maximize the complete system. Until you are sure that this system will not work for you, spending thousands of dollars changing equipment will not guarantee success either.
Changing cables, speaker positioning etc. can have a significant effect, especially when starting with highly reputable equipment.
Don't be discouraged, tweaking a system to become a synergistic whole can take a considerable time.
Remember, it's you, not your dealer or anyone else with an opinion, that has the final say on what you find enjoyable.

James Tanner

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Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #18 on: 16 Dec 2008, 01:16 am »
Thank you James and all that have responded to my "issues."  I have spoken with my dealer today and he tells me I need to change both my speaker cables and interconnects.  My previous Monitor Audio G60s' were not a "full" range speaker like my new PMCs' and new upgraded speaker cables will make a huge difference along with interconnects.  It is not that my existing cables were cheap, they just won't provide the range and detail that is required.  He assures me that this will make a "huge" difference and he will not stop until I am completely satisfied. My current speaker cables are tri-wired with a set the dealer made himself.  With the Monoblocs being close to the speakers I only need 4' tri-wired lengths.  I trust my dealer and hopefully the cables will be here before Christmas.....I can't help but think that this won't solve my problem.....any thoughts?

lyle   

Hi Lyle,

Not to get in the way of the dealer but in my opinion  'cables and interconnects' are a '2' out of 10 in getting it right.

james

rob80b

Re: Mr.Tanner...please help?.....
« Reply #19 on: 16 Dec 2008, 03:40 am »
Hi Lyle,

I’ve kept an eye on this thread, listen to James’s and others advice.
Cables and even the electronics for that matter will change very little the problems you are describing.
From experience in wrestling with this hobby I’ve been able to transform even budget non-audiophile setups to something to be proud of by just changing speakers placement.
As James mentioned get your speakers away from the boundaries, this may not always be possible, but if you can start with 3 to 4 feet and work from there you may be pleasantly surprised.
Another option is adding a high quality sub with the mains crossed over between 50 and 80, many times full range monitors are impossible to setup properly especially in terms of the base, too many room nodes to eliminate, leaving you with waveforms being dispersed throughout the listening room interfering with the clarity of the sound top to bottom.
Just my take, but cables are not about to solve your problem.

Robert