AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The HiRez Music Circle => Topic started by: Sonny on 24 Jun 2013, 05:51 pm
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I am wondering what is going on with SACD players and why it seems like nobody wants a HIGH END SACD / CD PLayer Only!
It seems everyone wants something that can act as a DAC as well.
I have been trying to sell my Marantz SA11S2 for a couple of weeks, even at 50% of retail and seems like there is no interests in it.
Seems to me folks wants a player that can also act as a DAC, and DSD Dac at that.
Just wanted to see what the consensus is out there....
Thanks
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I don't know about a consensus, but in my case, I need it to play DVD as well. I just don't have room to be stacking endless components on top of each other.
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I hear that Mike...
You need a universal player then :thumb:
My Video and Audio are not connected, so, I don't need that...
Thanks for the feedback!
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first, there are many good universal players that do SACD, DVD_A and BluRay...like the Oppo family. They have cannibalized the hirez disc player industry. Their Oppo 105 is less money new than your player at 65% off, and has garnered incredible reviews...and does all formats. Dan Wright will tube mod one to fight at the highest weight classes!! And frankly, any used spinning disc player, at 50% of retail, is likely not perceived as that big of a value, given that many dealers do 40% on new stuff.
Second, with the advent of native DSD playback, and the ability, albeit techy, to get DSD off one's personal library of SACDs, the SACD player buyer pool is diminished ever so slightly...especially the stereo SACD user. The multichannel SACD user will have to wait a little for a viable pure DSD multichannel option (my stacked Mytek solution is not realistic for most...although I have in my hands a prototype one-box solution that will kick ass!! Oops, sorry...nondisclosure. Review soon. :) ).
The DAC thing is something different. Oppo has created a universal player that acts as a USB DAC, but I can't see that it is a huge hurdle to get over. Most folks who want a good DAC would likely want a stand-alone one, not one buried in a $500 disc player. My only interest in the Oppo's feature set is that they at least offer a DSD playback component, although not via computer audio USB (but instead a goofy USB thumb drive paradigm). If that capability ever gets more user friendly (multichannel DSF albums are huge and will fill up a thumb drive in no time) then it is more viable IMO. (Note: Oppo is very quick with firmware updates, so I may be behind the times, here, on their improved viability)
Net/net, a potential buyer of an SACD disc player is likely not a computer audiophile, but instead a collector of SACDs that doesn't intend to rip them. That pool will buy a $500 Oppo cuz it also does BluRay... or a $1k Oppo 105 cuz it is Michael Fremer's new analog-like favorite...and does BluRay. :) You need to find the person who appreciates the finer aspects of that nice Marantz of yours.
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Thanks Ted, I agree with your points. Like me, I will never intend to "rip" my SACD and use it with a DSD DAC as why do that if you already have the hardware?
Second, I don't see a lot of DSD Downloads, at least not yet, and quite frankly, perhaps I am in the "stone age" or something, but I still believe that it's always better to have the hardware, in this case cd/sacd, than merely downloading. I know, there's a lot of work in Downloading and really, the cost of a CD/SACD is going to be more affordable (for the most part) than getting the equivalent quality download and you have to get Hard Drives, get something to play it back, search around and need a good DAC, DSD capable or not!
Third, if you have the actual disc, than there's no worry about losing your hard drives and the info if it crashes or getting back ups...though with CD/SACD, you need storage space.
Fourth, I love to find that "person" that appreciate good SACD playback...and while the OPPO has all the bells and whistles, most of us dedicated audiophiles, have separate Video and Audio systems or set ups. I for one do. So, the BD playback and the HDMI and multi-channel of the OPPO and price is nice, but is it really needed? Wouldn't it be better to focus your resources on the things you want instead of spreading too thin? I know the OPPO is well received, but I've read reviews and heard the OPPOs and though they are "nice" for the money, I don't think they do "music" justice, IMHO.
So, who out there wants a "reference SACD/CD" player?
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Thanks Ted, I agree with your points. Like me, I will never intend to "rip" my SACD and use it with a DSD DAC as why do that if you already have the hardware?
One may not have a reference or high quality SACD player in every set up in their house. So, by ripping SACDs you may be able to enjoy the same quality audio in multiple systems. I have both an Oppo BDP-95 in my main rig and I have a squeezebox touch in 2 other rigs.
Third, if you have the actual disc, than there's no worry about losing your hard drives and the info if it crashes or getting back ups...though with CD/SACD, you need storage space.
Discs can go bad so by ripping them you have a back up too.
Fourth, I love to find that "person" that appreciate good SACD playback...and while the OPPO has all the bells and whistles, most of us dedicated audiophiles, have separate Video and Audio systems or set ups. I for one do. So, the BD playback and the HDMI and multi-channel of the OPPO and price is nice, but is it really needed?
My main audio and video rigs occupy the same room. I can watch high quality Blu-ray and listen to high quality audio with the same Oppo. My guess is that this is more common than you think.
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I have a SACD player, but I don't use it much. After Sony won the SACD vs DVD Audio battle, I kinda thought there would be many more SACD titles, are there? I guess I thought there would be more and wanted many more stereo SACDs. When I listen to my CDs and a HQ DAC, I am not missing the SACD better sound quality.
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Just wanted to see what the consensus is out there....
I have SACD's in my collection and I still buy them. I am in the IT field and could easily go to disk based, but my current player (modified Sony - Modwright output, Vacuum State Clock) is still running so I will be sticking with physical media for now. Also the disk based playback, DAC, DSD, etc is changing so rapidly buying something now does not make sense to me.
If my current player died tomorrow (sound of knocking on wood) and I was looking for another player it would need to be able to play redbook and SACD and have MCH analog out for playing MCH SACD's. Most of my MCH SACD's are classical, but I have some other genre's too. But if I had to live with only 2 CH SACD playback, I could probably survive :) But having that hall sound as part of the performance is very nice to have.
If I want to play movies, I have a dedicated Blul-Ray/DVD player - don't need a player to play ALL formats. But the new Oppo's are very enticing if I was forced to purchase now. Also Modwright is doing mods on these players and I have heard/read something that Joe Rasmussen (Custom Analogue & Vacuum State) is working with the Oppo's too.
After my experience with modded players and I was was purchasing another physical player, I would purchase one that could be modded by either Modwright or Vacuum State (the two best modders out there IMHO).
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While it took me long enough, I found the right PS3 and I have moved to playback via my Meitner MA-1, and, while I'm not done digitizing yet, I really can't imagine going back to discs other than in a spare system where I have a universal player. While I have not done multi-channel, my HAL MS-2 has HDMI out, so at some point I will extract some of those. I've had expensive players before. Way back (late 1990s?), I bought a lightly used Sony SCD-XA-77&ES and had Modwright do the $2.6k Aboslute Truth Mod. With so many DSD DACs now at reasonable price points, there's no question at some point I'll end up with more than one DSD DAC
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I am waiting on getting a DSD DAC since it seems (and I could be wrong) that the better DACs do not do DSD yet so you may actually sacrifice quality for non-DSD source material by going to a DSD DAC. I am not as close to it yet so this may not be correct.
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I am waiting on getting a DSD DAC since it seems (and I could be wrong) that the better DACs do not do DSD yet so you may actually sacrifice quality for non-DSD source material by going to a DSD DAC. I am not as close to it yet so this may not be correct.
This I don't know about, but I think the fact that there are not many "DSD" downloads right now, I wouldn't be so fast on getting a DSD Dac. I am sure when there are more titles for DSD Downloads, there will be newer and better implementation of those chips in a great package.
Also, I do believe that CDs are not forever, I too have ripped almost all my cds as well, however, I think buying a cd is still cheaper, more titles, than downloading, either High Res or any other equivalent or superior formats.
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I am waiting on getting a DSD DAC since it seems (and I could be wrong) that the better DACs do not do DSD yet so you may actually sacrifice quality for non-DSD source material by going to a DSD DAC. I am not as close to it yet so this may not be correct.
The Meitner MA-1 is not cheap but is excellent on all formats including PCM. Ted did a nice review of the Exasound too and that is probably more affordable and another one that likely does everything well. I guess it really depends on how much DSD one has either in downloads or ripped. I have lots of SACDs since I've owned a player since they were first available. Over the course of about 15 years I have a lot of discs (including from the days it had major label support). I don't have many downloads yet just a couple. There's probably at least a couple of SHM SACDs and several Acoustic Sounds issues I'll get at some point. I still buy about a dozen or dozen and a half discs each year.
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IMO, music choices are a main determinate of whether SACD is important to any listener. I order a number of SACDs from Presto classical in the U.K. ( I'm in Canada and so pay no VAT and with inexpensive shipping they are great values .) I also listen to jazz and to a lesser extent rock but as much as I like my SACD of Brothers in Arms ( and I have all the versions ), I wouldn't be using SACD if my listening choices weren't highly balanced towards classical and jazz.
So I think that SACD players ( at least those not part of a universal player ) simply appeal to a smaller subset of audiophiles.
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So far I have resisted the music down load craze. I prefer redbook CDs.
I keep hearing that CDs are doomed to the digital music file. . . and very well may be, but I don't think they are going to disappear any time soon. So for me I prefer a good quality player to a DAC . . . at least for now.
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I agree I also prefer RB CD's and SACD's. I bought a Marantz SA15 S2 Ltd around 6 months ago. Let me add that I am also old. :lol:
Shhhh I have been playing tons of vinyl.
There are 3 Marantz SACD's FS sale here in the Ads.
Not selling quickly may be because of summer too.
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Let me add that I am also old. :lol:
Me too but if I digitize everything perhaps I'll look a couple of years younger :green:
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I am wondering what is going on with SACD players and why it seems like nobody wants a HIGH END SACD / CD PLayer Only!
It seems everyone wants something that can act as a DAC as well.
It's called hedging your bets. The flexibility of having a really good RB / SACD player that also offered a really good DAC certainly crossed my mind when I was pondering taking the plunge on my K-03. Someone may not be ready to dive into a world without CD's & SACD's right now but the door is open to convert down the road. And while it's certainly true that DAC's are evolving quickly, I think the DAC in my player should hold its own for some time to come and still be enjoyable even if it's no longer at the cutting edge.
D.D.
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I am wondering what is going on with SACD players and why it seems like nobody wants a HIGH END SACD / CD PLayer Only!
It seems everyone wants something that can act as a DAC as well.
I have been trying to sell my Marantz SA11S2 for a couple of weeks, even at 50% of retail and seems like there is no interests in it.
Seems to me folks wants a player that can also act as a DAC, and DSD Dac at that.
Just wanted to see what the consensus is out there....
Thanks
I think it's a fine machine and have looked at your ad several times. It's not that it's undesirable. For me, it's simply a matter of deciding if I can or want to spend that much money on another piece of audio equipment. And, it is true that a great many people are flocking to usb DACs and internet downloads of high-res music. I'm one of them. But i's a beautiful machine. Someone will buy it. Be patient. (Easy for me to say, hunh?)
GLWS,
Jeffrey :thumb:
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I am waiting on getting a DSD DAC since it seems (and I could be wrong) that the better DACs do not do DSD yet so you may actually sacrifice quality for non-DSD source material by going to a DSD DAC. I am not as close to it yet so this may not be correct.
Huh?
Meitner, EMM-Labs, Playback designs, Ayre, Chord, Lampizator, Ressonessence,Antelope, etc...all are among the "better" Dacs and do DSD. I think MSB does too and its rumoured that Weiss will support DSD soon.
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Huh?
Meitner, EMM-Labs, Playback designs, Ayre, Chord, Lampizator, Ressonessence,Antelope, etc...all are among the "better" Dacs and do DSD. I think MSB does too and its rumoured that Weiss will support DSD soon.
Yeah, to me the only hi-end players not yet announcing DSD support are TotalDac, Berkeley and Metric Halo. I may have missed one or two, but most are clearly seeing it as an opportunity; the add-on cost to allow DSD playback is minimal in most cases. And yes, MSB is onboard with their Analog and their DAC IV family. And it's not like PCM playback has suffered at all.
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Huh?
Meitner, EMM-Labs, Playback designs, Ayre, Chord, Lampizator, Ressonessence,Antelope, etc...all are among the "better" Dacs and do DSD. I think MSB does too and its rumoured that Weiss will support DSD soon.
I believe I clearly caveated my statement by saying that I could be wrong.
The ones you mentioned are pretty new to DSD.
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I believe I clearly caveated my statement by saying that I could be wrong.
The ones you mentioned are pretty new to DSD.
...everyone is pretty new to DSD. :) I was an alpha supporter/pioneer with early an release of Mytek 20 months ago (Oct 2011), and for those first 6-12 months there were few competitors. Now there are dozens and dozens.
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I believe I clearly caveated my statement by saying that I could be wrong.
The ones you mentioned are pretty new to DSD.
No worries, its moving so fast, its hard to keep up. Every week for the last few months brought new entrants.
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Which of these DACs, besides Lampizator, have a tubed output stage?
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None. The only other tubed DSD Dac is an Italian one. Ted posted the lind in the DSD Dac thread back in January.
Not sure if its a true tube implementation or just a tube ouput section stuck on as a retrofit.
Edit: Here -
Well, Norman, looks like Lucasz won't have the worlds first DSD tube DAC after all...
http://www.lector-audio.com/digitube-dsd.htm
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...
Fourth, I love to find that "person" that appreciate good SACD playback...and while the OPPO has all the bells and whistles, most of us dedicated audiophiles, have separate Video and Audio systems or set ups. I for one do. So, the BD playback and the HDMI and multi-channel of the OPPO and price is nice, but is it really needed? Wouldn't it be better to focus your resources on the things you want instead of spreading too thin? I know the OPPO is well received, but I've read reviews and heard the OPPOs and though they are "nice" for the money, I don't think they do "music" justice, IMHO.
So, who out there wants a "reference SACD/CD" player?
It's been said already, but I will just re-emphasize that a disc player that plays only CD/SACD is too limited. In addition to DVD-A (both commercial and home burned), more and more hires music is coming out on Bluray (2L and Naxos have quite a few already, and artists like Led Zeppelin, Steven Wilson, King Crimson, Rolling Stones, etc are "testing the waters"). And as Ted said, 50% off for a used Marantz is no deal when retailers are commonly taking 30-40% off new ones.
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About the only thing I use a physical media player to do anymore is play movies and stream Netflix and Hulu. All the music is ripped to my music library. Bluray, DVD, SACD, redbook, vinyl rips, it doesn't matter, it all goes in the library and I can listen to what I want, when I want, and no worries about whether the physical media is supported or not.
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About the only thing I use a physical media player to do anymore is play movies and stream Netflix and Hulu. All the music is ripped to my music library. Bluray, DVD, SACD, redbook, vinyl rips, it doesn't matter, it all goes in the library and I can listen to what I want, when I want, and no worries about whether the physical media is supported or not.
Nothing wrong with this. But for me, I like variety. Once I got rid of my Thorens turntable, now TTs are back in a very big way in this digital age, kinda wish I had kept it. So for me, I like having CD's, SACDs and music stored on a HD. I also like Hi Rez services on the net and MOG too. Maybe I will get an old Garrard TT. I want as much as I can afford!!!
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Your unit may not be selling just because of the general state of the economy. Are you open to the idea of shipping out of the USA? I have tried to sell 2 items in the past 6 months (each for about a grand), lots of tire kickers in the USA, but genuine interest from Asia. I had never shipped overseas yet and decided to skip it. I have a combo CD/SACD/DVD Sony that fills the need. But if it failed, I don't think I would buy another SACD machine to play the 12 disks that I have.
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Your unit may not be selling just because of the general state of the economy. Are you open to the idea of shipping out of the USA? I have tried to sell 2 items in the past 6 months (each for about a grand), lots of tire kickers in the USA, but genuine interest from Asia. I had never shipped overseas yet and decided to skip it. I have a combo CD/SACD/DVD Sony that fills the need. But if it failed, I don't think I would buy another SACD machine to play the 12 disks that I have.
Of course I would ship it over seas as I have before, the problem is it's 110 not 220 v.
I understand where you are coming from, I wouldn't buy a high end SACD/CD player for just 12 discs...I have probably a good 150 - 200 and do buy them now and then, when i see them, so, that's why I have it. I have heard great M-channel set ups but I don't have the room nor the desire to get into that. Any it's funny, but I like the Marantz / Esoteric, etc. as they build their own drives, unlike the other high ends like Ayre (Oppo Drives I believe) Krell, Cary and the like.
Well, if I don't sell it, I will keep both and one day, if I have two set ups, use it there!
Thanks for all the comments and keep them coming!
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I know about the BS commission on Agon did you try the other free boards besides here.
I sold everything I was going to between here and Asylum trader.
Again, I don't think it is the economy as much as the season.
Send it here I will evaluate it against my SA15 S2. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
I know forgetaboutit.
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None. The only other tubed DSD Dac is an Italian one. Ted posted the lind in the DSD Dac thread back in January.
Not sure if its a true tube implementation or just a tube ouput section stuck on as a retrofit.
Edit: Here -
Well, Norman, looks like Lucasz won't have the worlds first DSD tube DAC after all...
http://www.lector-audio.com/digitube-dsd.htm
Exactly right. There is a huge difference between tubes used for voltage gain and tubes used as a buffer. The former uses tubes the way they should and gives true tube sound - continuity, linearity, wholeness and sweetness - the latter is just a filter, using the tube to veil the sound - added 'warmth'.
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Maybe I will get an old Garrard TT. I want as much as I can afford!!!
Funny you say that. I've still got mine after nearly 40 years.
Zero 100 with a V-15 Type IV
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Cool, I am not sure I have seen that used as a verb before, well done!
"I believe I clearly caveated my statement by saying that I could be wrong."
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None. The only other tubed DSD Dac is an Italian one. Ted posted the lind in the DSD Dac thread back in January.
Not sure if its a true tube implementation or just a tube ouput section stuck on as a retrofit.
Edit: Here -
Well, Norman, looks like Lucasz won't have the worlds first DSD tube DAC after all...
http://www.lector-audio.com/digitube-dsd.htm
Somehow I thought that the simple $1,100 Eastern Electric Tube DAC Plus had a tube output ( ps it does but not DSD )http://www.stereomojo.com/EASTERN%20ELECTRIC%20TUBE%20DAC%20PLUS%20REVIEW.html/EASTERNELECTRICTUBEDACPLUSREVIEW.html I received a email that they are looking at DSD.
Oh yes, the Cary DAC100t is a tube output and the Wavelength products both appear to be true tube implementation BUT NOT DSD as yet...
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Somehow I thought that the simple $1,100 Eastern Electric Tube DAC Plus had a tube output ( ps it does)http://www.stereomojo.com/EASTERN%20ELECTRIC%20TUBE%20DAC%20PLUS%20REVIEW.html/EASTERNELECTRICTUBEDACPLUSREVIEW.html
But it doesn't do DSD which is what this thread is about.
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But it doesn't do DSD which is what this thread is about.
I know that what I noted not DSD
Plus I noted EE was working on a DSD DAC.. PS; here is the clip from a email I got from EE "" Alex is working on a DAC/PRE all in one with the optional external USB/DSD component"
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I think the thread is getting a little testy. First...DSD Dacs are a growing segment of the industry (whether for tech or marketing reasons), so there are a lot of promises from those mfg'ers who don't yet have a DSD DAC. FIne...but let's not confuse promises for what is available now. No need to argue.
Dminches, I love your broad-sweeping caveat, but it makes correcting you impossible...and correcting misinformation about DSD DACs is a full time job (and half of that time it's correcting mfg'ers who don't know what they introduced). :)
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I still like using and owning disc's. I have owned these players in order
Marantz SA11S1
NAD M5
Marantz SA11S2
Sony XA 5400ES
and now the Oppo BDP 105
each time was a step up sound quality
also now I can play my 30 or so Reference Recording
HDCD cd's, dvd-a, stream, use as a dac etc.
I have to say the Oppo is one great value and it sounds
spectacular.
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ted, I only reacted to the response to my comment because of the "huh?" Maybe I overreacted but I tried to make it clear that I could misinformed. Plus, I am always open to being corrected. 95% of what I know I have picked up from forums like this.
Anyway, I am glad there are more and more DSD DACs being offered. I will probably wait until I can find one that has a tubed output stage that I am familiar with since most of source material isn't DSD.
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I still like using and owning disc's. I have owned these players in order
Marantz SA11S1
NAD M5
Marantz SA11S2
Sony XA 5400ES
and now the Oppo BDP 105
each time was a step up sound quality
also now I can play my 30 or so Reference Recording
HDCD cd's, dvd-a, stream, use as a dac etc.
I have to say the Oppo is one great value and it sounds
spectacular.
Agreed. It is one of the main arguments I used to tell the OP why he is having trouble selling his 3x $$ Marantz.