AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Single Driver, Wide-Bandwidth Speakers => Topic started by: ejfud on 15 Apr 2012, 04:57 pm
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Share your tweaks to drivers in this thread. Basket, cone, phase plug ideas or whatever else you may have tried. The good and the bad.
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OK - can we agree to no flame war on this thread?
EnABL - give it a listen
Basket damping, frame stiffening, fairing / filling of gaps between motor assembly and basket legs - particularly helpful on smaller FR (4" & under) - while otherwise not enamored of Neo magnets just for tech's sake, they do have the great advantage of allowing smaller diameter motors which certainly can't hurt
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OK - can we agree to no flame war on this thread?
EnABL - give it a listen
Let's hope not. I'd like to think we can all act like adults around here.
I have two pairs of Jordan 92's. One treated, one not. I like them both. Is one better than the the other, I'm not sure. It's all based on listening experiences in my listening room no measurements. The thing I noticed about the Enabl'd pair is the image is better focused. I'd like to do the same comparison on drivers with a non metal cone and see what the differences are.
I agree, give it a listen. On never knows what you will hear.
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One would think if you are buying a top notch driver, there would be no reason to muck with it, especially if it's an expensive driver under warranty. Really if the driver isn't good enough, then you've chosen the wrong driver.
On the other hand, an inexpensive/cheap driver could benefit from tweaking as long as you don't over do it. I frequently apply peel and stick type of damping material to inexpensive stamped baskets, kills the ringing-tinging of the sheet metal frame.
I've known some that have coated their cones with this or that, but I say it's hit and miss. If you accidentally apply too much, how do you undo it? Once it's dry, it's permanent. Coating a woofer isn't quite as bad as coating a full ranger, a woofer will still be a woofer, but the added mass to a full range cone will damp the frequency extension.
I remember way back, David Weems advocated applying some self stick foam weather strip all around the free edge of whizzer cones.
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One would think if you are buying a top notch driver, there would be no reason to muck with it, especially if it's an expensive driver under warranty. Really if the driver isn't good enough, then you've chosen the wrong driver.
Most every product has some form of compromise built into it. It's just how manufacturing works. So I guess most things have room for improvement somewhere.
I bought the second pair of Jordan's already treated and for a good price to see if the EnABL thing does anything. I was as big a doubter as there is. Still have some doubt, but heard enough that my mind has opened up on the subject.
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Yes, I too was sceptical. Now on my 4th or 5th pair of "eNABled" drivers, and certainly deem the added cost worthwhile.
YMMV, as always.
Don
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I bought the second pair of Jordan's already treated and for a good price to see if the EnABL thing does anything. I was as big a doubter as there is. Still have some doubt, but heard enough that my mind has opened up on the subject.
What would really be nice, would be to see some before and after frequency response measurements.
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What would really be nice, would be to see some before and after frequency response measurements.
Would be interesting for sure, but I've come to the conclusion that measurements never tell the whole story.
I agree with the basket tricks mentioned so far. Does wonders for a stamped frame driver.
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Would be interesting for sure, but I've come to the conclusion that measurements never tell the whole story.
Yes, but measurements corroborate what you hear or didn't hear. Klippel measurements will take it way beyond what you can hear. Can your ear tell you if your enclosure is tuned to 39Hz or 41Hz? A simple impedance sweep can. Ok, very few people have 'perfect pitch.'
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Do my ears care if the box is tuned to 41hz?
Just sayin'.
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Do my ears care if the box is tuned to 41hz?
Just sayin'.
If 41Hz was your target, then yes. Hopefully your enclosure is tuned and not the box itself.
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I just hate it when someone says 'box' as opposed to properly calling it an enclosure.
When someone says box, I think of cardboard. . . literally.
(http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22396&d=1334410709)
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Here's an interesting read.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0310/modifying_ff85ken.htm
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Some more ideas.
http://www.decware.com/tweak.htm
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/speaktweak_e.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/speaktweak2_e.html
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Some more ideas.
http://www.decware.com/tweak.htm
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/speaktweak_e.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/speaktweak2_e.html
From the Decware site:
"Installing sound absorbing materials such as cork, or felt on the baffle will reduce rarefaction making it difficult to localize your speakers. This enhances sound stage topology in the stereoscopic array. Makes you speakers have a chance at disappearing when the music is on."
Someone really needs to explain to him the difference between rarefaction and diffraction.
"Stereoscopic array" What, as in one on the right and one on the left?
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From the Decware site:
"Installing sound absorbing materials such as cork, or felt on the baffle will reduce rarefaction making it difficult to localize your speakers. This enhances sound stage topology in the stereoscopic array. Makes you speakers have a chance at disappearing when the music is on."
Someone really needs to explain to him the difference between rarefaction and diffraction.
"Stereoscopic array" What, as in one on the right and one on the left?
I've heard a few of Steve's products over the years, including a very early version of the Radial speaker - all of them very musical and engaging, but my yes, he does have a way of turning a phrase. :jester:
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I just hate it when someone says 'box' as opposed to properly calling it an enclosure.
When someone says box, I think of cardboard. . . literally.
(http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22396&d=1334410709)
too bloody cute
lay down a couple of coats of glass matting and resin, and these might well sound better than, and certainly be lighter to move than if made from 1 1/2" MDF
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I've heard a few of Steve's products over the years, including a very early version of the Radial speaker - all of them very musical and engaging, but my yes, he does have a way of turning a phrase. :jester:
Let's face it, Steve isn't the only one in this hobby to get a little creative.
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These phase plugs are wooden Easter Eggs glued to their little stands with a steel washer on the bottom. I paid under $5 for them at a local craft store. The highs on the Beta 12LTA are greatly improved with this easy tweak.
Another tweak I discovered which is barely visable here is using heavy pre-pasted textured wall paper to cover MDF enclosures. The end result is like rapping on stone.
(http://)
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When I design a driver I often have the manufacturer test and tweak it trying various surrounds and adhesives as well as changing spider stiffness to change acoustic or electrical parameters. Various cone shapes can really alter the response as well. You guys would be surprised at the difference that is made from different glues used to hold on the surround. Glues that dry hard or soft can have quite an effect in the upper ranges of the driver.
However, once the driver is completed there isn't a lot that the average hobbyist can do to it.
Almost all metal frames can have a ring to them when excited with energy in a range that hits their resonance, but it is often very slight. Some frames are obviously worse than others. Damping them with some type of material similar to a material that most people think of as Dynamat or the damping layer used in No Rez can be fairly effective in controlling the slight ringing. And there is no negative effect it giving that a shot so long as you are not reducing the air flow behind the driver.
Dots on the cone isn't going to alter the driver in any way unless you really start adding some mass to the cone. You might as well draw a smiley face on the cone with a magic marker. It will have about the same effect (zero). However, adding some mass continuously around the outer edges of the cone, on either side, with a soft substance (not a hard drying substance) can have some positive effect minimizing upper range break up. A thin layer of Silicone or some type of caulk works pretty well.
I don't recommend doing things like that to a driver unless you have the means to measure the results to see what is going on. It is also very hard to get any consistency doing things like that too. So the measuring and testing aspect is very critical if you are trying to match a pair of drivers.
You guys are likely to find much more improvement by dampening the cabinet walls or adjusting the type and amount of insulating material.
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I salvaged these old Sansui FR woofers from some trashed enclosures found on the curb. They were ugly and badly discolored so I painted the cones with something called "The Wet Look" from PE. Not only do they look better but the sound improved enough to try them in these "I" baffles.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62908)
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Dots on the cone isn't going to alter the driver in any way
Some would beg to differ.
dave
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Some would beg to differ.
dave
Yeah I know. I tested and measured a set of my M-130 woofers with it on there and could not find any measured difference. I also did some extensive side by side A/B listening test and could not detect any audible differences either.
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In a blind A/B with source material that has a good soundstage it takes me no time at all to pick out the EnABLed pr of speakers
dave
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Some would beg to differ.
dave
EnABLing my Fostex F200A drivers made a very noticable (subjective) difference. Real research involves postulating, testing assumptions, and keeping an open mind. The rest are welcomed to join the flat earth society. (I'm a licensed engineer who is not a proponent of technology for it's own sake or because it's cool/fun.)
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In a blind A/B with source material that has a good soundstage it takes me no time at all to pick out the EnABLed pr of speakers
dave
I am real big on using A/B listening comparisons to find or confirm differences. I heard clear differences when I A/B'ed the drivers with and without painted dots on the cone too. But it had to do with driver burn in time and not dots on the cone. Burn in time being equal the drivers sounded the same.
What is it that you think the dots might be achieving that would result in an audible difference? I honestly looked hard for anything, but could not find a thing.
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I hesitate to point out the obvious, Danny, but since this is the full-range driver circle, the (pertinent) discussion is about full-range drivers....
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Real research involves postulating, testing assumptions, and keeping an open mind.
I agree. Feel free to have a look at my test results and please let me know if there is still something I may have overlooked that could show some difference that the dots can make.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59575.0
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I agree. Feel free to have a look at my test results and please let me know if there is still something I may have overlooked
Did you overlook that you are testing a woofer instead of a full-range driver?
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I hesitate to point out the obvious, Danny, but since this is the full-range driver circle, the (pertinent) discussion is about full-range drivers....
Yes, I understand, and I have done a lot of work with full range drivers. I even designed a network for a full range driver design that is a commercially available speaker.
The thread was about driver modifications. I have done some extensive work in that area as well and have contributed to that discussion.
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Did you overlook that you are testing a woofer instead of a full-range driver?
The woofer that I tested was played full range and has good output to 10kHz. I think the test concerning that mod was no less valid using that particular driver.
It was the driver that I was sent for testing by a customer. I did not request it.
If someone would like to send me a driver with a more extended range to test this mod on then I will be glad to go through the testing process again (my time permitting) as soon as I can.
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The thread was about driver modifications.
The thread is about "DIY" modifications to full-range drivers.
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The thread is about "DIY" modifications to full-range drivers.
I recommended a DIY frame dampening mod in my first post.
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Wait till you see my latest "DIY driver tweak". I suppose I should go take a photo of the carnage...
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I recommended a DIY frame dampening mod in my first post.
You recommend dampening!
I recommend damping, not quite as wet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping
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Thanks AE for the correction. And I knew that but still keep typing dampening. At least I got it right in my first post. :lol:
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The discussion of dampening vrs damping has gone on a number of times. In the appropriate context they are synonyms, both are correct in the given context.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dampen
dave
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The discussion of dampening vrs damping has gone on a number of times. In the appropriate context they are synonyms, both are correct in the given context.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dampen
dave
Alright, I was right either way! :green:
Thanks Dave. :thumb:
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The discussion of dampening vrs damping has gone on a number of times. In the appropriate context they are synonyms, both are correct in the given context.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dampen
dave
Actually I prefer it really wet, dampenenenenenenenenenenenenenenenenene neneing.
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The discussion of dampening vrs damping has gone on a number of times. In the appropriate context they are synonyms, both are correct in the given context.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dampen
dave
No reason to call it dampening, when you are educated enough to know what damping is.
Those little felt pads in a piano that touch the strings are called dampers, not dampeners. Controlling the vibrations, eh.
http://www.piano.christophersmit.com/damper.html (http://www.piano.christophersmit.com/damper.html)
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Alright, I was right either way! :green:
Thanks Dave. :thumb:
Yes, either way is acceptable, but one way makes more sense technically speaking.
I really hate it when people say subsonic when it should be infrasonic, or supersonic instead of ultrasonic.
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I believe "dampening" is the usage more common in the British Empire.
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I believe "dampening" is the usage more common in the British Empire.
Humor or Humour?
Gray or Grey?
Tea time.
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No reason to call it dampening, when you are educated enough to know what damping is.
Or if your are educated enuff to know that there are synonyms or alternate spellings, use the one that suits you best. I prefer to have a "u" in colour (but not always) and use both aluminum & aluminium. I will also switch from imperial to metric in the same sentence.
I don't think Danny falls into the "not educated enough" pigeon hole.
dave
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Educated and the internet? Weird combo. The Internet where opinions often get confused for facts.
I was skeptical of the dots, but on A/B test of two pairs of Jordan drivers the soundstage changed a fair amount. Thought it lost a little sparkle on the high end though.
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EnABLing my Fostex F200A drivers made a very noticable (subjective) difference. Real research involves postulating, testing assumptions, and keeping an open mind. The rest are welcomed to join the flat earth society. (I'm a licensed engineer who is not a proponent of technology for it's own sake or because it's cool/fun.)
Subjective yes. But did it really make them sound better? Some people equate different as better, are you one of those people?
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I never expressed an opinion one way or another in my post. Just stated my experiences.
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But did it really make them sound better?
One of the definitions of better is the ability to transmit/preserve more information (Julian Vereker). In that sense EnABLed drivers are better.
FR is going to tell you little... that is like looking at the surface of a body of water. EnABL is working to dredge the mud off the bottom so you can explore deeper.
dave
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One of the definitions of better is the ability to transmit/preserve more information (Julian Vereker). In that sense EnABLed drivers are better.
FR is going to tell you little... that is like looking at the surface of a body of water. EnABL is working to dredge the mud off the bottom so you can explore deeper.
dave
dave
dave
dave
I wasn't asking you.
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I agree. Feel free to have a look at my test results and please let me know if there is still something I may have overlooked that could show some difference that the dots can make.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59575.0
I wouldn't question your experience or qualifications in this area, just that true science questions all and assumes nothing. Seems to me your mind was made up before hand. Unfortunately science is taught today as something to be accepted and memorized as a series of facts, not an open minded investigative method. We have so much to be thankful for from science/technology, its easy to fall into this comfortable trap.
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I wouldn't question your experience or qualifications in this area, just that true science questions all and assumes nothing. Seems to me your mind was made up before hand. Unfortunately science is taught today as something to be accepted and memorized as a series of facts, not an open minded investigative method. We have so much to be thankful for from science/technology, its easy to fall into this comfortable trap.
So, some guy writes up a long paper and then patents his idea. Doesn't make it fact.
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I wouldn't question your experience or qualifications in this area, just that true science questions all and assumes nothing. Seems to me your mind was made up before hand. Unfortunately science is taught today as something to be accepted and memorized as a series of facts, not an open minded investigative method. We have so much to be thankful for from science/technology, its easy to fall into this comfortable trap.
I am always open minded about this kind of stuff now. I have been surprised by stuff like this in the past. So I was really trying to find something.
I ask you then. What is it that you think the dots might be achieving that would result in an audible difference?
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I just hate it when someone says 'box' as opposed to properly calling it an enclosure.
When someone says box, I think of cardboard. . . literally.
(http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22396&d=1334410709)
are you listening to it everyday?or just prototype?